I am an older Dutchman, I have never told anyone to their face that I didn’t like them and nobody has done that to me. It’s much more subtle than that. Also, dropping by unannounced is much more common than you think. Also I lived n several other countries. It’s very difficult to make local friends in most countries, in my experience.
I am also an oder Dutchman, and I have been addressed directly, also with bad news many times. In turn I also gave bad news fairly directly many times. I do agree with you that it is more direct north of the Rhine than south of the Rhine river.
I'm also an older dutch man (58) and I live in Poland. To me it's more a thing of formality. If you don't really know somebody or have never met them before, you keep a certain polite distance. Dutch people have a tendency to be more familiar and open around strangers, which can feel like they're very direct. Polish people can be very nice and polite but then it turns out they don't like you at all. They can also be at a distance or reserved in dealing with you, but then they see that you are really a nice person, after some time, and then they accept you and treat you almost like family. For a Dutch person in Poland that can be very confusing and now I can really understand that it must be confusing for a Polish person in the Netherlands.
You plan ahead with your friends for a longer activity, like diner, concert, museum, etc. When you’re in the neighbourhood you might just drop by or, these days, with a simple app message; koffie? Regarding making friends it isn’t much different over here in the Netherlands than anywhere else. Once you speak the language and you get to some level of communication people become nicer automatically. But, the concept of who you call a friend can be difficult too. There are countries where it’s common to call someone you met once a friend. We tend to call them acquaintances and interact with them accordingly. A friend, to most of us here, is someone who’s in your life for more than just a casual conversation. For anybody who moves to a different country remember you’re only the new one in town for a brief moment, then it’s up to you how you become a member of local society. If you learn to speak their language you’ll be part of the same communication in the group and they’ll help you get better at it, if you keep using your own language your the odd one out and the whole group has to adapt to you by becoming interpreters in their free time. They might do that for a while but you’ll quickly notice that people switch back to their native language and leave you out. So, that supposedly “cultural barrier” is a more of a language barrier that only you can fix. Or blame the Dutch and be lonely….
The problem is the word “friend”. This word is used quickly in English. Friends in the Netherlands do not make appointments, they see each other spontaneously and whenever they want. Only people who we call more acquaintances make an appointment and when that is made it often becomes nice and “fun”, because the coffee is ready.
As a Dutchman I very, VERY much like to object to that statement. I'm a very spontaneous person, can throw away all my plans if I meet a total stranger and we get along pretty well (there was chemistry between me and a Ukrainian woman I met while she was having vacation in The Netherlands, went to her country the same year as well on her invitation). But unfortunately, Dutch friends are big-time planners and there's hardly anything spontaneous going on: if I want to meet one, I have to plan at least 2 to 3 months in advance, as they have many other things and visits planned before. And that's where I like my foreign friends, because they tend to be far more like me: if we bump into eachother, we have the greatest conversations, take time to talk and have a cup of tea or coffee and such and usually when we plan to meet, we're talking about a week or maybe 2 in advance planning.
@@meike7507 Nope it's not. Take a good look at the initial comment I replied to and see what I object to. Someone stating that Dutch people never make appointments for friends is just not true in my opinion, I consider it to be the exact opposite. That I'm not one of those people is a different story.
@@weeardguy en ik ben het dan weer niet met jou eens. Je HOEFT geen afspraak te maken met vrienden. Die vriend heeft dan misschien weinig tijd voor je omdat'ie door moet naar werk of iets anders, maar ontvangt je sowieso, en je knuffelt elkaar gedag en je kunt je hart luchten, en die vriend zal zeer enthousiast zijn met je spontane bezoek. De afspraak maken is geen afstandelijk iets, maar een extra garantie op langdurigere aandacht en uitputten van onderwerpen die voorbijkomen.
This video is outstanding. To hear a Polish woman describe another culture ( and a difference within that culture) in such detail in another language (English) that would be rarely matched by a native English speaker is, to me, amazing. Absolutely amazing.
Moved from London to Amsterdam 18 years ago together with my wife (we are both from different countries) and we had our kids here. Never learnt proper Dutch and that never negatively impacted our life. That is one of the things that makes Amsterdam unique in Europe (and maybe on the World): it is a truly international city that really embraced the spirit of the European Union. Languages are one of the biggest barriers for people from EU to move and live within the space. English is the frank language in Amsterdam and nobody cares that you don’t speak Dutch, apart of some “farmers” that still live in the Mokum. Amsterdam is a paradise in the middle of all the retrograde way of thinking that is expanding in Europe.
Funny, as a Swede I find the Dutch very friendly and eager to make friends. Not only on a superficial level. I actually feel seen and appreciated as a individual.
That makes sense. Cultures are usually experienced in relation to other cultures. I don't have too much experience with the Swedish culture, but my understanding is that Swedes can often be perceived as a little introverted or not necessarily approaching people on the streets. Thank you for your comment :)
Funny that your perception is such. My mother was Swedish and lived in Paris. She was torn between the Swedish way of life and the French one. Il lived in Alkmaar with my American husband. He worked with young people from all over the world. One year a young man Italian Swiss arrived. He hated the way of life in Holland and told me that he reminded him of several years spent in Sweden where it was cold and people were distant. He went back to Geneva. Some years later, we moved to Geneva and again, even for me, there were big cultural differences that I could not get. It shows that cultures are very different in our little Europe. My Swedish mother died many years ago speaking Swedish to me, a language she refused to teach us, unfortunately.
Once I heard a Dutch father wisely say to his son, "Don't worry about what others think of you or how they judge you. Instead, think about what you think of yourself and how you judge yourself." The simplicity and effectiveness of that statement struck me deeply, and I appreciated it greatly. Upon reflection, I realized that if taken to the extreme, beyond the delicate balance between altruism and individualism or empathy and indifference, it could have serious emotional and social consequences. This led me to consider the teachings imparted to Dutch children from a young age, conveyed through concepts such as "doe maar gewoon, dan doe je al gek genoeg" or its abbreviated form "doe maar normaal." The same goes for the dogma of "nuchterheid," which may explain certain behaviors that we perceive as apathetic or emotionally lacking. Today, however, I would like to explore the concept of the Dutch "defense mechanism," related to the observed dynamics in the video and the comments below. Over the centuries, due to the not entirely secure "world perception" that characterizes many Dutch people, a peculiar "defense mechanism" has developed. The generalization that "Dutch people are arrogant" is often countered by their personal self-definition; they simply label themselves as "direct" individuals. The truth, however, lies somewhere in between. The observed "arrogance of the Dutch" finds its roots in the need to mask feelings of insecurity or fear, especially prevalent among those living in large cities, in response to the perception of a "threatening world" (which we will delve into later). This "mask" provides them with a semblance of security and a sense of superiority, but often proves as fragile as a sandcastle on the shore. However, the attitude we identify as "arrogant" also serves as a protective barrier, enabling them to maintain a sense of dominance over others and compensate for the lack of control over unexpected events or situations. A careful examination of Dutch social dynamics reveals one of the predominant concepts: "Sterk te zijn," translated as "to be strong," though often translating into appearing strong rather than being truly strong. This practice inevitably leads to significant emotional distancing. The so-called "arrogance" becomes a means to avoid deep emotional connections, understandable in those who perceive the world as threatening and seek to protect themselves from potential emotional wounds by avoiding emotional involvement with others. It would be interesting to interrogate this type of Dutch individuals about the root of this uncertain worldview, even though the answers might not only be intriguing but possibly also "arrogant." It is relevant to consider that from childhood, Dutch children are exposed, mainly by parents or schools, to an environment perceived as rich in social competition. In such a competitive and uncertain environment, arrogance can emerge as an attempt to assert one's "superiority" over others, fueled by the belief that demonstrating such superiority is essential for survival. As for the tendency to excessively plan everything, it is somewhat related to the previously described "arrogant" attitude. Through an idealistic control of the future, intending to plan everything in detail without discrimination towards acquaintances, friends, or family, they seek to obtain a sense of security and predictability in a world perceived as "uncertain" or even threatening. Personally, I cannot imagine living with a constant sense of uncertainty and threat, remaining in a "state of absolute protection" throughout my entire existence. However, trying to understand this situation by putting myself in their shoes, I can begin to grasp the emotionally narrow life these individuals might experience. This perspective might lead us to be more understanding of behaviors that may appear strange to us. The detailed and almost manic programming of the future, for most inhabitants of this planet, represents an unnatural artifice. Yet, for Dutch People, it serves as a tool providing a sense of "emotional security." Through this "illusion of control," many insecure individuals find an effective way to perceive a form of supervision over future situations, thus reducing constant anxiety related to uncertainty. This practice becomes exaggerated when another element is added: the "fear of making mistakes or encountering unexpected situations." The Dutch are firmly convinced that by planning everything well in advance, they can reduce the possibility of mistakes, having time to reflect and plan every detail. The struggle against the danger of the sea and water is a constant in Dutch history, a crucial aspect that has shaped the cautious and detached attitude of many. It should also be remembered that the millennia-long history of the current place we know as the "Netherlands" includes submission to Roman colonization, Spanish domination with the yoke of the Holy Inquisition, World War II, German occupation, and inhumane deportations, contemporary immigration with its evident integration problems, especially with certain non-European ethnicities. A historical journey of a small land overshadowed by events that have deeply affected the collective psyche of the Dutch. Contemporary Dutch chronicles show the significant problem of the "invasion" of rather turbulent guests who have contributed (and still contribute) to shaping a population inclined towards closure, now practically tired of not feeling comfortable at home. Not to mention the economic history of the Netherlands, with its commercial and maritime tradition, amplifying entrepreneurial mentality and almost obsessive pursuit of economic security among the Dutch. Moreover, the geographical position of the Dutch, constantly engaged in the struggle against natural threats such as floods, has contributed to solidifying a mentality of planning and risk management. These events, faced with tenacity over the centuries, have forged a meticulous and careful approach to safety and stability, reflected in the often perceived detached attitude as arrogant. In short, as we can understand, the history of this small but virtuous Dutch land is woven with numerous, even traumatic events that now constitute the connective tissue that has shaped the culture and mentality of this people, expressing themselves through detailed planning and extreme caution that characterize many facets of their daily life. In more recent times, with the advent of COVID-19 and the consequent lockdown measures, we witnessed a very particular reaction from the Dutch. Initially, there was massive denial of reality. Subsequently, institutions and authorities faced difficulties in "forcing" the Dutch to give up planning their days and adapt to the disruption of their usual planned and repetitive routine. The unexpected experience was uncomfortable for all inhabitants of the world, but for many Dutch, it was as if the comfortable carpet they thought they could use as a constant sign of comfort and protection was suddenly taken away from under their feet. Many of them fell heavily; after the carpet was "pulled," many of their convictions based on unnatural or artificial behaviors shattered. The reality revealed to them undermined the belief that they could predict everything through planning. Many Dutch people, especially in large cities, experienced stressful or entirely unreal situations that, unlike usual, they could not avoid but had to endure. This sense of defeat and loss led to very severe depressive states among many residents of the Netherlands. Personally, I do not believe they have learned the lesson. On the contrary, they still seem firmly convinced that sudden or unexpected events, which they call "onverwachte gebeurtenissen," are under their dominion and management. They behave as if they were a sort of "Gods of nature and events, things and people." This attitude might explain why they systematically avoid concepts like "spontaneity," "improvisation," and "naturalness," preferring instead the pre-planned programming of everything. As we often read, this tendency manifests itself with arrogance. You might wonder, what is all this for? Basically, in modern times, it serves to protect or increase economic gain. Everything else takes a back seat or is even irrelevant in this perspective. G.
Dutch Wonderland. Recommend reading Oera Linda Codex. De meester zijn over jezelf is het voornaamste van een Hollander/Nederlander. Mijn ma zei altijd tegen mij: doe maar normaal dan doen je al gek genoeg.
@@dhrboeser7788 Beste Dhrboeser, hartelijk dank voor je antwoord. Persoonlijk waardeer ik het concept van "zelfmeesterschap", zoals vermeld in mijn bericht. Echter, bij het overdenken van deze deugd komt er een element naar voren dat vaak de diepgang ervan ondermijnt in Nederland: het alomtegenwoordige en dagelijkse "doe maar gewoon...", dat zich vanaf de kindertijd insinueert in het leven van de gemiddelde Nederlander. Deze volharding slaagt er vaak in om deze deugd in veel gevallen te veranderen in een rigide "dogma", waardoor een echte ondergeschiktheid ontstaat die de natuurlijkheid van de mens verstoort. Dit fenomeen vestigt de aandacht op hoe een "enkele gedragslijn", indien onophoudelijk herhaald, de variëteit aan handelingen in het kader van sociale interactie beperkt. Het is cruciaal om te benadrukken dat mijn kritiek niet gericht is op het concept zelf (dat ik zeer waardeer in relatie tot het zelfbewustzijn van een individu), maar eerder gericht is op het voortdurende misbruik van een gedragslijn die elke andere vorm van sociaal handelen uitsluit. Dit herinnert aan het risico dat mensen lopen door blindelings elk dogma te volgen, of het nu religieus of sociaal is, wat onvermijdelijk leidt tot beperkingen in diversiteit van perspectieven. Ik concludeer door op te merken dat mijn standpunt, zoals je begrijpt, de waarde van het besproken concept niet ontkent. Ik nodig echter uit om het belang te overwegen van het handhaven van een balans in de toepassing van deze deugd, zodat het geen belemmering wordt voor spontaniteit en menselijke diversiteit. Ik omhels je hartelijk, G.
8:29 friend of me emigrated to Poland, from Netherlands, has familiy made there with Polish wife. He invited me over, and Poland is what Netherlands should be going back to more as a whole.. Amsterdam, Randstad region became more selfcenterred, unhospitable.. Eastern Netherlands, Drenthe, Overijssel, Groningen and Friesland still have, though less, that what Poland still has in rural hospitality. Warschauw isn't representative for Poland, been there, visited it, like I would take a non Dutch friend to show Netherlands, ofcourse Amsterdam is included in the showing the country. In Poland I met his wife's family, had to meet her brothers, mother, uncle who lives there and there, and see this and that.. I have a smile on my face now typing about my experince in Poland with these people, no pen can put in words how that was.
So great to hear that you've had so positive experiences with Poland. I have to say that I also have very positive experience with Polish people. Once you know them, they can be very warm, helpful, loving, and treating yoi like family.
The difference in openness to friendship between Europeans and Americans is due to the fact that Americans move around a lot during their lives while Europeans don't. 25% of American households move every year. So, they develop the skill of making new friends easily. Europeans typically stay close to family and friends for their whole life, so they don't have the same openness. Although the European cultures are all different they all seem to share this aspect.
Oh wow, I didn't know that statistic. I also experienced Americans as very open to new friendships, and your explanation for this makes a lot of sense. Having to put oneself into so many new environments makes getting out of the shell almost inevitable.
I smiled when the lady talked about how she adopted the strict planning of the dutch. I used to be much more spontaneous too, but once you are used to this predictable kind of meeting you cant go back :D
It is not strict planning at all. It is simply time management. No correlations with being spontaneous or not. That is merely a foreign perception where spontaneity is equal to not planning, scheduling or managing. Those 2 are related but not compatible and one doesn't exclude the other whatsoever.
It's like this in America now also, but I think it's due in great part to use of cell phones, which speed life up, so we feel bad if we don't get right back to people. This lady is right on the mark in understanding social life in the modern world, not just the Netherlands.
I am always surprised at the answer that even a short visit has to be planned. I have never lived that way, most of my family and friends have never lived that way. I do know people that plan every hour of the week and it would drive me crazy.
What she said about quickly sitting down and catching up, completely spontaneous, that's true. We don't do that. There is 1 exception. At the first rays of sunshine, everyone runs to the terrace. And you spontaneously go for a beer. And oh yes, we immediately prefer to take off our coats and sweaters.
Sounds very logical. But also I guess it has something to do with setting priorities and choosing how to spend one's free time (e.g. by following hobbies etc).
I live in Montenegro where people are generally considered friendly, warm and hospitable. They tend to pop up unexpected (and unannounced) for a coffee at their friends' or even acquaintances' place, just as the Polish lady said that they do in Polland. However, this habit starts to change nowadays and people prefer to make arrangements to meet on a certain day and at certain time when it is convenient to both parties. This way you avoid sometimes awkward situation when people come to have coffee with you while you're in the middle of something, or when you or your place are not presentable for unexpected guests or when you're simply not in the mood to socialize, but don't want to say that and offend visitors who show at your door when it suits them, not you. In my opinion there's nothing wrong to plan when meet other people since then you are prepared to dedicate your time completely to them, without worrying how you or your place look like or without being angry wbecause someone's spontaneous desire to meet you thwarted you plans.
I'm 27 years old and i am dutch. The people interviewed are located in Amsterdam (which despite being the capital city, does not represent the dutch culture in any way despite architecture ). I don't live in Amsterdam but since i have family living there, i can tell the difference. On average the dutch citizen is very time oriented and is therefore very strict in how they use their time in one given day. We are also considered very "straight to the point" because again. Since we are very focused on time, we do not like to engage in meaningless conversation on relationships that are not worth wasting time on in the first place. We rarely come out and say we don't like someone, we just make it obvious that we are not intrested in wasting time on you. At the same time we consider helping other people or educating other people about our culture, to be a valueable way of spending time.
Thank you for your input. Indeed, Amsterdam has its very own culture, which is quite different from other places in the Netherlands. Something that can be seen in many capital cities of the world. I however also see many similarities between your description and the content of the video.
What a beautiful well adapted and outspoken woman! She's the prototype example of what "inburgering" is all about! She has a very good knowledge of what the Netherlands is and what it represents! The Dutch are very selfaware, methodical and efficient combined with innovative and practical which makes it com across as cold and it is in a certain way as we Dutch tend to make rational decissions rather than emotional! Not sure though if I necessarily agree with the guy saying that it's difficult to make friendship with the Dutch unless a lot has changed in my 17 year of absence! I agree though that for the Dutch friendschip has to have meaning and not everyone fits in that picture at any given time! Getting aquinted with the Dutch is very easy, just join in for a beer and a laugh or a nice chat!
Interesting video. I would like to see a follow up with a larger sample, two is very few. I'm a Dutchman working in Amsterdam and I am very engaged with the international community (personal and work). I'd be happy to contribute to a follow up production
I am glad that you like it. Follow-Ups are coming soon and thank you for your willingness to participate. Unortunately, I cannot record you anymore, as I already finished filming in Amsterdam, but soon you can see more people explaining their perspective on Dutch culture on this channel. After that, it will be about German culture (filmed in Berlin).
As a Dutch man who has hardly lived there, I find this kind of clip useful. Not only can I confirm that the opinions expressed are not only correct about my own behavior but also that providing a link to it obviates tedious explanations by me to those I offend.
simple its all about formality their culture is based on small village/towns which were usually tightly placed also they have a religious belief based on Lutherism, very frugal, formal religion it explains a lot nothing to fovwith being cold distant etc. i am an australian ex pat 35 years in nl so i know what i mean
An appt. that's BS...If you live next door to someone who is home , you just knock on the door for coffee...I stay in Zaandam for the vacation and neighbors always come over to talk and have a beer....I never heard or experience this...I assume she means if your friend lives on the ohter side of the city, yes, then it is best to call first to see if she's home for some coffee..
Great example of good interviews taken of and from people you meet in the streets! Some Dutch replies to add to this could be: * Dutch and making appointments with friends and the need to plan is merely logically explained as, we want to ensure the time spend is also including quality, which need careful preparation. Nevertheless, when a friend really needs a word and some time, we can knock on their door for sure. That depends on the friends though. There is close friends that can do this, loose friends, friends of friends that relations, relations and so onward. Close friends we value to this social rule, and relationships with people do not really get this emotional and direct support, this is not including that relations can not become good friends, but we grow friendship over time mostly, depending on the "click" between us and our potential friends. When we see a potential friend we would surely hand them an entry, also without appointment, but it hangs on our directness in communication as well. Which connects with the next questions you asked your respondents. * So yeah it is a hierarchy maybe. But to hold one or two really close friends, for being able to knock on their door for attention needed in both ways for both friends, is a good thing to have. We sure have that here as well. Directness, yeah we don't want to mess up time and honour those of others as well, we don't walk around the church, we directly go to the altar or benches and say what is on our mind. Not to be rude, but to be clear, and to handle precious time correctly. * And yes we expect that when we are in the Netherlands, but we surely adapt this across a border in a way, but loosing directness, is a harder thing to learn, we call it handing out opinions or such in a political way, more smoothly, although we dislike to do so, we try to when we are on other soil. * I am sure we aren't cold, but we are reserved yes. We do not always want to include emotion into our replies. But that doesn't mean we do not have them. We do have a big heart though and love to share opinions, even if they collide. This is simply respectful, yet not all Dutch apply respect, that is not just a Dutch problem though :) I adored the comments by these wonderful people, thank you for producing and uploading and for all the guests and their interesting comments. Thank you for choosing to live in the Netherlands! Have a wonderful 2024!
Thank you for your great comment. That is really flattering :). And I always appreciate further explanations as well as respectful criticism towards any of the content.
::::::::::::::::::::: About 0:59 ( till 2:27 ) This wasn't always the case in the Netherlands. I am 1 of the few who continue this old beautiful Dutch tradition. My friends can visit unexpectedly. If I not have time, I just say to them, I have no time, come on another day.* ( *'Dutch Directness' is good! 0:11 ( till 0:18 ) No hard feelings! :) )
That is not true , most Dutch people ( like myself ) speak English , German and or French and you do not need to speak Dutch to become friends with them !
@josephwhirlwind6086 Yes, of course. But if you live in Holland and you hang out with Dutch people in a group, then the group will speak Dutch with each other. So, to be a real friend and be able to follow Dutch conversations and participate in them, you need to know Dutch. Otherwise, you'll stay a bit on the side.
@@josephwhirlwind6086 That restricts you to a small subsection of the population in Amsterdam alone. Plus people go into adaption mode and 'outsider mode' if they have to put everything in English. For the majority of the country you have to speak the language, that's the same thing all over the world. Sure you can have superficial friendships, but you'll always be 'that guy' for which the entire group has to adapt. I've seen an American woman get pushed out of a group because even after 20 years she refused to speak Dutch and forced every group she entered to adapt to her. That's the key: the guest making others adapt to him, is never popular. Just a universal human thing.
As a Dutchy myself I like to say this: The Dutch are a proud nation. They like to solve their own problems and challenges. Like the woman said; we fight the water since hundreds of years and we are good at it. Don't try to change a Dutch opinion, but try them to convince them that there are more roads to Rome, and we will listen. It's a very political game. There is even a Dutch word for that: "Polderen". The Dutch have a long history of making agreements with each other, so everybody can live with the decision. Look at the politics in The Netherlands; over 20 parties, and there will always be coalitions, because the dutch are too divided. And what about the friend thing; go visit the provinces Groningen and Drenthe, the backdoor is always unlocked, and you're always welcome to pop in for coffee or a beer!
Yes, exactly my experience in the Netherlands. Dutch people are all that plus cheese sparing. A cup of coffee and one cookie. Not two. When they come to France they bring all their food in their caravans. You freeze in their house except in the living room. When we left the country we gave away our plants to our neighbors. They could not understand why we did not want money. Interesting country, beautiful flowers but altogether a not very welcoming place when you live in a small city and you are a foreigner.
having lived in 3 different european countries , they are all similar with getting to know the locals. europeans on a whole are inclusive to themselves. the people i had made friends with found it very uncomfortable when i spoke to strangers when they came to the states to visit. i had met a dutch man at a restaurant i was eating at in chicago, we were talking outside while smoking, i had mentioned i lived in amsterdam years ago. i asked him how he liked it here? he said, you know what" i bet you did not make many dutch friends while there. the people my wife and i are having dinner with, are our next door neighbors and the other couple my wife met at work, this would never happen back home. .
I did not know I was 'Dutch', my life would have been much easier there (I am borderline autistic). I would never allow anyone who was not a real friend to knock on my door (a matter of life and death, yes), even an intimate friend would have to call me first to know my whereabouts... and mood. So I'd be happy there, my nephew has adopted the country since he was a teenager, so he knows best, so why not me, 74 years old isn't much anyway, to finally feel at home.
When you have kids and working full time, you have less time, on saturday and sunday's buying groceries for a week, cooking, cleaning clothing and our house. Go with your kids to parks, or to a club.
Thank you for your comment. I think you hit the nail on the head. I wouldn't say that there's anything wrong in the culture, as every culture has their uniqueness, pros, and cons. But I see a lot of resistance against criticism towards the culture in the comments. As if a perfect illusion does not want to be broken.
I'm curious to know whether these people are expats, or immigrants or guest workers? Because I imagine that influences their perspective. Oh and these are the definitions I found: * Expats are living and working abroad because of a lifestyle choice and not out of economic necessity or dire circumstances in their home country such as oppression or persecution. * Immigrants are usually defined as people who have come to a different country in order to live there permanently. * Guest workers typically perform low or semi-skilled agricultural, industrial, or domestic labor in countries with workforce shortages, and they return home once their contract has expired.
Then the transition between expat and immigrant should be fluent. For example when someone lives abroad for a choice and not because of necessity, but still chooses to live there permanently, he would be considered an expat and an immigrant (by the definitions that you mentioned). In both cases we are talking about highly skilled professionals who live in NL by choice. So I guess expats would apply, but also immigrant for the first woman, as she lives in NL for 20 years now and has no plans of living elsewhere.
@@TheMovementHub I'm sorry, I forgot to include that expats are not planning on living permanently in the country they've moved to. So, that means the woman is an immigrant. Thank you for clearing that up.
Ich lebte einige Jahre in Holland / Haarlem . Ich konnte zu jeder Zeit an die Tür kommen . Will je een Coop Koffee ? War die erste Frage ! Das war ich nicht von meinem Zuhause gewohnt . Ik fond het altjid heel leuk! ❤ Ich fühlte mich willkommen . 🤗
😂 oh, I think I’m a failing Dutch person as I do visit friends without appointment. That is, whom live in the neighbourhood. I won’t go to a friend who lives an hour away without appointment, even if it’s on that day.
Probably bigtown culture is different from rural areas. Universaly. Remember to aproach a person without bias. Even if the other doesnt. Bias is insecurity. Character and personality trumps culture. Rightwing insecure people are tribal. Flags.
The Dutch directness is often overrated in my opinion. As a Dutch I can clearly state: There will still be talk behind your back, there are still hidden agendas and there is still more to the eye, than being communicated. The Dutch directness is rather a lack of diplomacy, communication skills and an upfront attitude.
But I don't want diplomacy, I do like an upfront attitude. And communication skills are what is in the eye of the beholder. Good communication skills in China will be vastly different than in the Netherlands. I usually just say what I want to say. If it is bad news for the receiver, I will sugercoat it a little, but not much. Main thing is the message is clear and it does not take too many words (for it becomes less clear then).
@@ronaldderooij1774 sure… go visit other countries and develop an international perspective. Don’t put The Netherlands as a starting point, but be open minded (I know it’s hard) and be objective, take a step back and absorb (don’t judge).
30 years here, working and all that, originally from Latvia, can say that people are distant and very greedy, most of our friends all foreigners from diffent counties.
Normal to make an appointment most people work and have a busy week They often want to do things nice with their family and kids so they have spare time !!!
im Dutch but never made an appointment to visit a friend. i think it all depends on the friend and how busy they are. I heard that lot in other reaction videos, but i think its....crap
Als je Nederland komt zorg er voor dat je wat Nederlands spreek zorg er voor dat je weet wat ons tikt in plaats te verwachten dat we maar egels voor jullie blijven spreken als je hier wil blijven wonen zorg er wel voor dat je binnen 3 a 4 jaar onze taal ken
ooh yes that is also my opinion. i lived there and i was horrified when one day i was in the same street and wanted to say hello to a couple i knew. they flatly said its nearly 6 and its dinner time we cannot let you in. i never contacted them again.. i moved to amsterdam where i befriended people from the antillies and expats. just normal spontaneous people. the dutch are rude in their so called directnes. and very racist. but....secretly😊
It's a habitat that you don't knock to say hello at dinner time, before it would be okay, and probably you'd be invited for dinner but you have to give people time to arrange something. Also after dinner is okay, but saying it is racist when you don't know or respect the local habits is stupid.
Because for the channel I interview people in capital cities at first (with the exception of Barcelona). After I interviewed people in a significant amount of European capitals, I would like to come back to Den Haag or Rotterdam. Or perhaps even the south of NL. But this will still need some time.
Always so funny to see these expats. They basically know not much about real Dutch culture. They stay safely within the A10 Ring-highway, far away from the areas where the more poor and normal people live. Try take a tram or subway an venture out into the outer neighboorhouds in Noord, West or East. Or even the Bijlmer if you dare. A totally different world.
We lost the ability to come together with neighbors during feminism from the 1960s onwards. It was a gradual process. In the countryside it is still common among the elderly and acquaintances. Even though the Dutch are very clumsy and brutal, they like to talk behind your back, just like everywhere else. They hide their weaknesses by projecting. That what they do themselves is to blame you. Actually a very nasty way of doing things. The rejection and aversion to any authority also plays a role. So in 60 years the ''Dutch American law Dream'' through the further enlargement of the BRICS bloc is only a sign that the Western Christian culture by supporting the stupidest decision of the British (namely to make the state of Israel possible). Became the wedge for the world. Who, through lust for power and sheer greed for resources, repeats our animalistic aggressive lifestyle at the expense of others. Will it never get better?
There is LOTS of talking behind the back, especially if you are an Arab or a black person. You just probably don’t have close enough friends to share the gossip.
Thank you for sharing this. It seems like many people state that there is talking behind other's back. Do you have an idea why the Dutch are perceived as so direct?
@@TheMovementHub Thanks for asking. I think the directness only applies to areas where Dutch can easily win. Cycling without lights? Bam, what an idiot! In the UK for instance, people are more patient with each other. So Dutch rudeness comes across as directness. However, Dutch people approaching others to discuss serious issues is unheard of. People will avoid uncomfortable topics (where they can’t win easily) as much as they possibly can.
I am an older Dutchman, I have never told anyone to their face that I didn’t like them and nobody has done that to me. It’s much more subtle than that. Also, dropping by unannounced is much more common than you think. Also I lived n several other countries. It’s very difficult to make local friends in most countries, in my experience.
Do you have an idea why many expats report these things?
I am also an oder Dutchman, and I have been addressed directly, also with bad news many times. In turn I also gave bad news fairly directly many times. I do agree with you that it is more direct north of the Rhine than south of the Rhine river.
I'm also an older dutch man (58) and I live in Poland. To me it's more a thing of formality. If you don't really know somebody or have never met them before, you keep a certain polite distance. Dutch people have a tendency to be more familiar and open around strangers, which can feel like they're very direct. Polish people can be very nice and polite but then it turns out they don't like you at all. They can also be at a distance or reserved in dealing with you, but then they see that you are really a nice person, after some time, and then they accept you and treat you almost like family. For a Dutch person in Poland that can be very confusing and now I can really understand that it must be confusing for a Polish person in the Netherlands.
People are people, not much to celebrate. 😂
You plan ahead with your friends for a longer activity, like diner, concert, museum, etc. When you’re in the neighbourhood you might just drop by or, these days, with a simple app message; koffie? Regarding making friends it isn’t much different over here in the Netherlands than anywhere else. Once you speak the language and you get to some level of communication people become nicer automatically. But, the concept of who you call a friend can be difficult too. There are countries where it’s common to call someone you met once a friend. We tend to call them acquaintances and interact with them accordingly. A friend, to most of us here, is someone who’s in your life for more than just a casual conversation. For anybody who moves to a different country remember you’re only the new one in town for a brief moment, then it’s up to you how you become a member of local society. If you learn to speak their language you’ll be part of the same communication in the group and they’ll help you get better at it, if you keep using your own language your the odd one out and the whole group has to adapt to you by becoming interpreters in their free time. They might do that for a while but you’ll quickly notice that people switch back to their native language and leave you out. So, that supposedly “cultural barrier” is a more of a language barrier that only you can fix. Or blame the Dutch and be lonely….
The problem is the word “friend”. This word is used quickly in English. Friends in the Netherlands do not make appointments, they see each other spontaneously and whenever they want. Only people who we call more acquaintances make an appointment and when that is made it often becomes nice and “fun”, because the coffee is ready.
Sounds very logical. Thank you for your input.
As a Dutchman I very, VERY much like to object to that statement. I'm a very spontaneous person, can throw away all my plans if I meet a total stranger and we get along pretty well (there was chemistry between me and a Ukrainian woman I met while she was having vacation in The Netherlands, went to her country the same year as well on her invitation). But unfortunately, Dutch friends are big-time planners and there's hardly anything spontaneous going on: if I want to meet one, I have to plan at least 2 to 3 months in advance, as they have many other things and visits planned before.
And that's where I like my foreign friends, because they tend to be far more like me: if we bump into eachother, we have the greatest conversations, take time to talk and have a cup of tea or coffee and such and usually when we plan to meet, we're talking about a week or maybe 2 in advance planning.
@@meike7507 Nope it's not. Take a good look at the initial comment I replied to and see what I object to. Someone stating that Dutch people never make appointments for friends is just not true in my opinion, I consider it to be the exact opposite. That I'm not one of those people is a different story.
@@weeardguy en ik ben het dan weer niet met jou eens. Je HOEFT geen afspraak te maken met vrienden. Die vriend heeft dan misschien weinig tijd voor je omdat'ie door moet naar werk of iets anders, maar ontvangt je sowieso, en je knuffelt elkaar gedag en je kunt je hart luchten, en die vriend zal zeer enthousiast zijn met je spontane bezoek.
De afspraak maken is geen afstandelijk iets, maar een extra garantie op langdurigere aandacht en uitputten van onderwerpen die voorbijkomen.
This video is outstanding. To hear a Polish woman describe another culture ( and a difference within that culture) in such detail in another language (English) that would be rarely matched by a native English speaker is, to me, amazing. Absolutely amazing.
What an amazing and impressive lady. She has analized us better than i could do it as a Dutchman.
Thank you so much for your kind words!
Moved from London to Amsterdam 18 years ago together with my wife (we are both from different countries) and we had our kids here. Never learnt proper Dutch and that never negatively impacted our life. That is one of the things that makes Amsterdam unique in Europe (and maybe on the World): it is a truly international city that really embraced the spirit of the European Union. Languages are one of the biggest barriers for people from EU to move and live within the space. English is the frank language in Amsterdam and nobody cares that you don’t speak Dutch, apart of some “farmers” that still live in the Mokum. Amsterdam is a paradise in the middle of all the retrograde way of thinking that is expanding in Europe.
The Polish woman was very articulate and insightful she should have her own TH-cam channel
Totally agree with you!
Funny, as a Swede I find the Dutch very friendly and eager to make friends. Not only on a superficial level. I actually feel seen and appreciated as a individual.
That makes sense. Cultures are usually experienced in relation to other cultures. I don't have too much experience with the Swedish culture, but my understanding is that Swedes can often be perceived as a little introverted or not necessarily approaching people on the streets.
Thank you for your comment :)
Funny that your perception is such. My mother was Swedish and lived in Paris. She was torn between the Swedish way of life and the French one. Il lived in Alkmaar with my American husband. He worked with young people from all over the world. One year a young man Italian Swiss arrived. He hated the way of life in Holland and told me that he reminded him of several years spent in Sweden where it was cold and people were distant. He went back to Geneva. Some years later, we moved to Geneva and again, even for me, there were big cultural differences that I could not get. It shows that cultures are very different in our little Europe. My Swedish mother died many years ago speaking Swedish to me, a language she refused to teach us, unfortunately.
Once I heard a Dutch father wisely say to his son, "Don't worry about what others think of you or how they judge you. Instead, think about what you think of yourself and how you judge yourself." The simplicity and effectiveness of that statement struck me deeply, and I appreciated it greatly. Upon reflection, I realized that if taken to the extreme, beyond the delicate balance between altruism and individualism or empathy and indifference, it could have serious emotional and social consequences.
This led me to consider the teachings imparted to Dutch children from a young age, conveyed through concepts such as "doe maar gewoon, dan doe je al gek genoeg" or its abbreviated form "doe maar normaal." The same goes for the dogma of "nuchterheid," which may explain certain behaviors that we perceive as apathetic or emotionally lacking.
Today, however, I would like to explore the concept of the Dutch "defense mechanism," related to the observed dynamics in the video and the comments below. Over the centuries, due to the not entirely secure "world perception" that characterizes many Dutch people, a peculiar "defense mechanism" has developed. The generalization that "Dutch people are arrogant" is often countered by their personal self-definition; they simply label themselves as "direct" individuals. The truth, however, lies somewhere in between.
The observed "arrogance of the Dutch" finds its roots in the need to mask feelings of insecurity or fear, especially prevalent among those living in large cities, in response to the perception of a "threatening world" (which we will delve into later). This "mask" provides them with a semblance of security and a sense of superiority, but often proves as fragile as a sandcastle on the shore.
However, the attitude we identify as "arrogant" also serves as a protective barrier, enabling them to maintain a sense of dominance over others and compensate for the lack of control over unexpected events or situations.
A careful examination of Dutch social dynamics reveals one of the predominant concepts: "Sterk te zijn," translated as "to be strong," though often translating into appearing strong rather than being truly strong. This practice inevitably leads to significant emotional distancing. The so-called "arrogance" becomes a means to avoid deep emotional connections, understandable in those who perceive the world as threatening and seek to protect themselves from potential emotional wounds by avoiding emotional involvement with others. It would be interesting to interrogate this type of Dutch individuals about the root of this uncertain worldview, even though the answers might not only be intriguing but possibly also "arrogant."
It is relevant to consider that from childhood, Dutch children are exposed, mainly by parents or schools, to an environment perceived as rich in social competition. In such a competitive and uncertain environment, arrogance can emerge as an attempt to assert one's "superiority" over others, fueled by the belief that demonstrating such superiority is essential for survival.
As for the tendency to excessively plan everything, it is somewhat related to the previously described "arrogant" attitude. Through an idealistic control of the future, intending to plan everything in detail without discrimination towards acquaintances, friends, or family, they seek to obtain a sense of security and predictability in a world perceived as "uncertain" or even threatening.
Personally, I cannot imagine living with a constant sense of uncertainty and threat, remaining in a "state of absolute protection" throughout my entire existence. However, trying to understand this situation by putting myself in their shoes, I can begin to grasp the emotionally narrow life these individuals might experience. This perspective might lead us to be more understanding of behaviors that may appear strange to us.
The detailed and almost manic programming of the future, for most inhabitants of this planet, represents an unnatural artifice. Yet, for Dutch People, it serves as a tool providing a sense of "emotional security." Through this "illusion of control," many insecure individuals find an effective way to perceive a form of supervision over future situations, thus reducing constant anxiety related to uncertainty.
This practice becomes exaggerated when another element is added: the "fear of making mistakes or encountering unexpected situations." The Dutch are firmly convinced that by planning everything well in advance, they can reduce the possibility of mistakes, having time to reflect and plan every detail.
The struggle against the danger of the sea and water is a constant in Dutch history, a crucial aspect that has shaped the cautious and detached attitude of many. It should also be remembered that the millennia-long history of the current place we know as the "Netherlands" includes submission to Roman colonization, Spanish domination with the yoke of the Holy Inquisition, World War II, German occupation, and inhumane deportations, contemporary immigration with its evident integration problems, especially with certain non-European ethnicities. A historical journey of a small land overshadowed by events that have deeply affected the collective psyche of the Dutch.
Contemporary Dutch chronicles show the significant problem of the "invasion" of rather turbulent guests who have contributed (and still contribute) to shaping a population inclined towards closure, now practically tired of not feeling comfortable at home. Not to mention the economic history of the Netherlands, with its commercial and maritime tradition, amplifying entrepreneurial mentality and almost obsessive pursuit of economic security among the Dutch.
Moreover, the geographical position of the Dutch, constantly engaged in the struggle against natural threats such as floods, has contributed to solidifying a mentality of planning and risk management. These events, faced with tenacity over the centuries, have forged a meticulous and careful approach to safety and stability, reflected in the often perceived detached attitude as arrogant.
In short, as we can understand, the history of this small but virtuous Dutch land is woven with numerous, even traumatic events that now constitute the connective tissue that has shaped the culture and mentality of this people, expressing themselves through detailed planning and extreme caution that characterize many facets of their daily life.
In more recent times, with the advent of COVID-19 and the consequent lockdown measures, we witnessed a very particular reaction from the Dutch. Initially, there was massive denial of reality. Subsequently, institutions and authorities faced difficulties in "forcing" the Dutch to give up planning their days and adapt to the disruption of their usual planned and repetitive routine.
The unexpected experience was uncomfortable for all inhabitants of the world, but for many Dutch, it was as if the comfortable carpet they thought they could use as a constant sign of comfort and protection was suddenly taken away from under their feet. Many of them fell heavily; after the carpet was "pulled," many of their convictions based on unnatural or artificial behaviors shattered.
The reality revealed to them undermined the belief that they could predict everything through planning. Many Dutch people, especially in large cities, experienced stressful or entirely unreal situations that, unlike usual, they could not avoid but had to endure. This sense of defeat and loss led to very severe depressive states among many residents of the Netherlands.
Personally, I do not believe they have learned the lesson. On the contrary, they still seem firmly convinced that sudden or unexpected events, which they call "onverwachte gebeurtenissen," are under their dominion and management. They behave as if they were a sort of "Gods of nature and events, things and people." This attitude might explain why they systematically avoid concepts like "spontaneity," "improvisation," and "naturalness," preferring instead the pre-planned programming of everything. As we often read, this tendency manifests itself with arrogance.
You might wonder, what is all this for? Basically, in modern times, it serves to protect or increase economic gain. Everything else takes a back seat or is even irrelevant in this perspective.
G.
Dutch Wonderland.
Recommend reading Oera Linda Codex.
De meester zijn over jezelf is het voornaamste van een Hollander/Nederlander.
Mijn ma zei altijd tegen mij: doe maar normaal dan doen je al gek genoeg.
@@dhrboeser7788 Beste Dhrboeser, hartelijk dank voor je antwoord.
Persoonlijk waardeer ik het concept van "zelfmeesterschap", zoals vermeld in mijn bericht. Echter, bij het overdenken van deze deugd komt er een element naar voren dat vaak de diepgang ervan ondermijnt in Nederland: het alomtegenwoordige en dagelijkse "doe maar gewoon...", dat zich vanaf de kindertijd insinueert in het leven van de gemiddelde Nederlander. Deze volharding slaagt er vaak in om deze deugd in veel gevallen te veranderen in een rigide "dogma", waardoor een echte ondergeschiktheid ontstaat die de natuurlijkheid van de mens verstoort.
Dit fenomeen vestigt de aandacht op hoe een "enkele gedragslijn", indien onophoudelijk herhaald, de variëteit aan handelingen in het kader van sociale interactie beperkt.
Het is cruciaal om te benadrukken dat mijn kritiek niet gericht is op het concept zelf (dat ik zeer waardeer in relatie tot het zelfbewustzijn van een individu), maar eerder gericht is op het voortdurende misbruik van een gedragslijn die elke andere vorm van sociaal handelen uitsluit. Dit herinnert aan het risico dat mensen lopen door blindelings elk dogma te volgen, of het nu religieus of sociaal is, wat onvermijdelijk leidt tot beperkingen in diversiteit van perspectieven.
Ik concludeer door op te merken dat mijn standpunt, zoals je begrijpt, de waarde van het besproken concept niet ontkent. Ik nodig echter uit om het belang te overwegen van het handhaven van een balans in de toepassing van deze deugd, zodat het geen belemmering wordt voor spontaniteit en menselijke diversiteit.
Ik omhels je hartelijk,
G.
@@GregoryCoccox dank u voor uw reply.
Gegroet vanuit Australië
Wat n antwoord, beetje kort van stof 😂
Brilliant observations from the lady
Lovely to hear that
8:29 friend of me emigrated to Poland, from Netherlands, has familiy made there with Polish wife. He invited me over, and Poland is what Netherlands should be going back to more as a whole.. Amsterdam, Randstad region became more selfcenterred, unhospitable.. Eastern Netherlands, Drenthe, Overijssel, Groningen and Friesland still have, though less, that what Poland still has in rural hospitality. Warschauw isn't representative for Poland, been there, visited it, like I would take a non Dutch friend to show Netherlands, ofcourse Amsterdam is included in the showing the country. In Poland I met his wife's family, had to meet her brothers, mother, uncle who lives there and there, and see this and that.. I have a smile on my face now typing about my experince in Poland with these people, no pen can put in words how that was.
So great to hear that you've had so positive experiences with Poland. I have to say that I also have very positive experience with Polish people. Once you know them, they can be very warm, helpful, loving, and treating yoi like family.
The difference in openness to friendship between Europeans and Americans is due to the fact that Americans move around a lot during their lives while Europeans don't. 25% of American households move every year. So, they develop the skill of making new friends easily. Europeans typically stay close to family and friends for their whole life, so they don't have the same openness. Although the European cultures are all different they all seem to share this aspect.
Oh wow, I didn't know that statistic. I also experienced Americans as very open to new friendships, and your explanation for this makes a lot of sense. Having to put oneself into so many new environments makes getting out of the shell almost inevitable.
I smiled when the lady talked about how she adopted the strict planning of the dutch. I used to be much more spontaneous too, but once you are used to this predictable kind of meeting you cant go back :D
Funny to see how moving to a new place can alter aspects of your personality.
I totally agree. I change personality when I change language
It is not strict planning at all. It is simply time management. No correlations with being spontaneous or not. That is merely a foreign perception where spontaneity is equal to not planning, scheduling or managing. Those 2 are related but not compatible and one doesn't exclude the other whatsoever.
It's like this in America now also, but I think it's due in great part to use of cell phones, which
speed life up, so we feel bad if we don't get right back to people. This lady is right on the mark in understanding social life in the modern world, not just the Netherlands.
When you become British you change in a zombie nothing works out, turning into evilness
I am always surprised at the answer that even a short visit has to be planned. I have never lived that way, most of my family and friends have never lived that way. I do know people that plan every hour of the week and it would drive me crazy.
*confused Dutch noises*
Amsterdam is very different from the rest of the country, it is like a foreign country.
No its not, it used to be that way but Amsterdam turned into a left muliticultered society were everybody speaks english.
20 years ago we spontaneously visited friends too
😅
What she said about quickly sitting down and catching up, completely spontaneous, that's true. We don't do that. There is 1 exception. At the first rays of sunshine, everyone runs to the terrace. And you spontaneously go for a beer. And oh yes, we immediately prefer to take off our coats and sweaters.
😂 That's indeed a very good reason to get a little bit crazy and be spontaneous. Thank you for your comment :)
The thing is that the Netherlands are one of the most busy and crowded countries in the world. People protect their private space...
Sounds very logical. But also I guess it has something to do with setting priorities and choosing how to spend one's free time (e.g. by following hobbies etc).
I live in Montenegro where people are generally considered friendly, warm and hospitable. They tend to pop up unexpected (and unannounced) for a coffee at their friends' or even acquaintances' place, just as the Polish lady said that they do in Polland. However, this habit starts to change nowadays and people prefer to make arrangements to meet on a certain day and at certain time when it is convenient to both parties. This way you avoid sometimes awkward situation when people come to have coffee with you while you're in the middle of something, or when you or your place are not presentable for unexpected guests or when you're simply not in the mood to socialize, but don't want to say that and offend visitors who show at your door when it suits them, not you. In my opinion there's nothing wrong to plan when meet other people since then you are prepared to dedicate your time completely to them, without worrying how you or your place look like or without being angry wbecause someone's spontaneous desire to meet you thwarted you plans.
I'm 27 years old and i am dutch. The people interviewed are located in Amsterdam (which despite being the capital city, does not represent the dutch culture in any way despite architecture ). I don't live in Amsterdam but since i have family living there, i can tell the difference. On average the dutch citizen is very time oriented and is therefore very strict in how they use their time in one given day. We are also considered very "straight to the point" because again. Since we are very focused on time, we do not like to engage in meaningless conversation on relationships that are not worth wasting time on in the first place. We rarely come out and say we don't like someone, we just make it obvious that we are not intrested in wasting time on you. At the same time we consider helping other people or educating other people about our culture, to be a valueable way of spending time.
Thank you for your input. Indeed, Amsterdam has its very own culture, which is quite different from other places in the Netherlands. Something that can be seen in many capital cities of the world. I however also see many similarities between your description and the content of the video.
Do you know the origin of the focused on time? That's because dutch are childred of the ice.
What a beautiful well adapted and outspoken woman!
She's the prototype example of what "inburgering" is all about!
She has a very good knowledge of what the Netherlands is and what it represents!
The Dutch are very selfaware, methodical and efficient combined with innovative and practical which makes it com across as cold and it is in a certain way as we Dutch tend to make rational decissions rather than emotional!
Not sure though if I necessarily agree with the guy saying that it's difficult to make friendship with the Dutch unless a lot has changed in my 17 year of absence!
I agree though that for the Dutch friendschip has to have meaning and not everyone fits in that picture at any given time!
Getting aquinted with the Dutch is very easy, just join in for a beer and a laugh or a nice chat!
Interesting video. I would like to see a follow up with a larger sample, two is very few. I'm a Dutchman working in Amsterdam and I am very engaged with the international community (personal and work). I'd be happy to contribute to a follow up production
I am glad that you like it. Follow-Ups are coming soon and thank you for your willingness to participate. Unortunately, I cannot record you anymore, as I already finished filming in Amsterdam, but soon you can see more people explaining their perspective on Dutch culture on this channel. After that, it will be about German culture (filmed in Berlin).
As a Dutch man who has hardly lived there, I find this kind of clip useful.
Not only can I confirm that the opinions expressed are not only correct about my own behavior but also that providing a link to it obviates tedious explanations by me to those I offend.
Love to hear that!
simple its all about formality
their culture is based on small village/towns which were usually tightly placed also they have a religious belief based on Lutherism, very frugal, formal religion it explains a lot
nothing to fovwith being cold distant etc.
i am an australian ex pat 35 years in nl so i know what i mean
The ONLY and BEST advise i can give you all...try another city...stay away from Amsterdam.
That's what all the right wing conservatives say.
Amsterdam is not The Netherlands
I'm glad it's not. That's what makes Amsterdam special.
An appt. that's BS...If you live next door to someone who is home , you just knock on the door for coffee...I stay in Zaandam for the vacation and neighbors always come over to talk and have a beer....I never heard or experience this...I assume she means if your friend lives on the ohter side of the city, yes, then it is best to call first to see if she's home for some coffee..
Great example of good interviews taken of and from people you meet in the streets!
Some Dutch replies to add to this could be:
* Dutch and making appointments with friends and the need to plan is merely logically explained as, we want to ensure the time spend is also including quality, which need careful preparation. Nevertheless, when a friend really needs a word and some time, we can knock on their door for sure. That depends on the friends though. There is close friends that can do this, loose friends, friends of friends that relations, relations and so onward. Close friends we value to this social rule, and relationships with people do not really get this emotional and direct support, this is not including that relations can not become good friends, but we grow friendship over time mostly, depending on the "click" between us and our potential friends. When we see a potential friend we would surely hand them an entry, also without appointment, but it hangs on our directness in communication as well. Which connects with the next questions you asked your respondents.
* So yeah it is a hierarchy maybe. But to hold one or two really close friends, for being able to knock on their door for attention needed in both ways for both friends, is a good thing to have. We sure have that here as well. Directness, yeah we don't want to mess up time and honour those of others as well, we don't walk around the church, we directly go to the altar or benches and say what is on our mind. Not to be rude, but to be clear, and to handle precious time correctly.
* And yes we expect that when we are in the Netherlands, but we surely adapt this across a border in a way, but loosing directness, is a harder thing to learn, we call it handing out opinions or such in a political way, more smoothly, although we dislike to do so, we try to when we are on other soil.
* I am sure we aren't cold, but we are reserved yes. We do not always want to include emotion into our replies. But that doesn't mean we do not have them. We do have a big heart though and love to share opinions, even if they collide. This is simply respectful, yet not all Dutch apply respect, that is not just a Dutch problem though :)
I adored the comments by these wonderful people, thank you for producing and uploading and for all the guests and their interesting comments. Thank you for choosing to live in the Netherlands! Have a wonderful 2024!
Thank you for your great comment. That is really flattering :). And I always appreciate further explanations as well as respectful criticism towards any of the content.
This was a lovely video :)
Thank you!! Glad you enjoyed it 😊
:::::::::::::::::::::
About 0:59 ( till 2:27 )
This wasn't always the case
in the Netherlands. I am 1 of
the few who continue this old
beautiful Dutch tradition. My
friends can visit unexpectedly.
If I not have time, I just say to
them, I have no time, come on
another day.*
( *'Dutch Directness'
is good! 0:11 ( till 0:18 )
No hard feelings! :) )
To make real Dutch friends you need to speak Dutch, since that's the language they speak with each other and with other friends.
spreek voor jezelf!
behalve jij dan, want je hebt geen vrienden.@@stephandagelet5545
That is not true , most Dutch people ( like myself ) speak English , German and or French and you do not need to speak Dutch to become friends with them !
@josephwhirlwind6086 Yes, of course. But if you live in Holland and you hang out with Dutch people in a group, then the group will speak Dutch with each other. So, to be a real friend and be able to follow Dutch conversations and participate in them, you need to know Dutch. Otherwise, you'll stay a bit on the side.
@@josephwhirlwind6086
That restricts you to a small subsection of the population in Amsterdam alone. Plus people go into adaption mode and 'outsider mode' if they have to put everything in English. For the majority of the country you have to speak the language, that's the same thing all over the world.
Sure you can have superficial friendships, but you'll always be 'that guy' for which the entire group has to adapt. I've seen an American woman get pushed out of a group because even after 20 years she refused to speak Dutch and forced every group she entered to adapt to her.
That's the key: the guest making others adapt to him, is never popular. Just a universal human thing.
As a Dutchy myself I like to say this: The Dutch are a proud nation. They like to solve their own problems and challenges. Like the woman said; we fight the water since hundreds of years and we are good at it.
Don't try to change a Dutch opinion, but try them to convince them that there are more roads to Rome, and we will listen. It's a very political game. There is even a Dutch word for that: "Polderen".
The Dutch have a long history of making agreements with each other, so everybody can live with the decision. Look at the politics in The Netherlands; over 20 parties, and there will always be coalitions, because the dutch are too divided.
And what about the friend thing; go visit the provinces Groningen and Drenthe, the backdoor is always unlocked, and you're always welcome to pop in for coffee or a beer!
Thank you for your kind explanations and additions.
Yes, exactly my experience in the Netherlands. Dutch people are all that plus cheese sparing. A cup of coffee and one cookie. Not two. When they come to France they bring all their food in their caravans. You freeze in their house except in the living room. When we left the country we gave away our plants to our neighbors. They could not understand why we did not want money. Interesting country, beautiful flowers but altogether a not very welcoming place when you live in a small city and you are a foreigner.
To stay in character: hé, lady, you're in the bikelane.
having lived in 3 different european countries , they are all similar with getting to know the locals. europeans on a whole are inclusive to themselves. the people i had made friends with found it very uncomfortable when i spoke to strangers when they came to the states to visit. i had met a dutch man at a restaurant i was eating at in chicago, we were talking outside while smoking, i had mentioned i lived in amsterdam years ago. i asked him how he liked it here? he said, you know what" i bet you did not make many dutch friends while there. the people my wife and i are having dinner with, are our next door neighbors and the other couple my wife met at work, this would never happen back home. .
I did not know I was 'Dutch', my life would have been much easier there (I am borderline autistic). I would never allow anyone who was not a real friend to knock on my door (a matter of life and death, yes), even an intimate friend would have to call me first to know my whereabouts... and mood. So I'd be happy there, my nephew has adopted the country since he was a teenager, so he knows best, so why not me, 74 years old isn't much anyway, to finally feel at home.
You should perhaps give it a try. If you have the freedom to move and don't like where you currently live, it could be an interesting experience.
These two Poles certainly express themselves very intelligently in English.
They certainly do :)
When you have kids and working full time, you have less time, on saturday and sunday's buying groceries for a week, cooking, cleaning clothing and our house.
Go with your kids to parks, or to a club.
and if we can't be talking behind somebodies back, we will invent something and gossip anyway, especially if you watch television on a sunday .. 😊
😂
also, we will gossip without appointment.
I think the #1 problem of dutch culture is accepting that there's anything wrong with it. Just look at the comment section.
Thank you for your comment. I think you hit the nail on the head. I wouldn't say that there's anything wrong in the culture, as every culture has their uniqueness, pros, and cons. But I see a lot of resistance against criticism towards the culture in the comments. As if a perfect illusion does not want to be broken.
I'm curious to know whether these people are expats, or immigrants or guest workers? Because I imagine that influences their perspective.
Oh and these are the definitions I found:
* Expats are living and working abroad because of a lifestyle choice and not out of economic necessity or dire circumstances in their home country such as oppression or persecution.
* Immigrants are usually defined as people who have come to a different country in order to live there permanently.
* Guest workers typically perform low or semi-skilled agricultural, industrial, or domestic labor in countries with workforce shortages, and they return home once their contract has expired.
Then the transition between expat and immigrant should be fluent. For example when someone lives abroad for a choice and not because of necessity, but still chooses to live there permanently, he would be considered an expat and an immigrant (by the definitions that you mentioned). In both cases we are talking about highly skilled professionals who live in NL by choice. So I guess expats would apply, but also immigrant for the first woman, as she lives in NL for 20 years now and has no plans of living elsewhere.
@@TheMovementHub I'm sorry, I forgot to include that expats are not planning on living permanently in the country they've moved to.
So, that means the woman is an immigrant. Thank you for clearing that up.
No worries. Ah interesting, then I guess there is a clear distinction between expats and immigrants
Ich lebte einige Jahre in Holland / Haarlem . Ich konnte zu jeder Zeit an die Tür kommen . Will je een Coop Koffee ? War die erste Frage ! Das war ich nicht von meinem Zuhause gewohnt . Ik fond het altjid heel leuk! ❤ Ich fühlte mich willkommen . 🤗
Interessant wie unterschiedlich doch die Erfahrungen sind
good!
😂 oh, I think I’m a failing Dutch person as I do visit friends without appointment. That is, whom live in the neighbourhood.
I won’t go to a friend who lives an hour away without appointment, even if it’s on that day.
Not very stereotypical of you 😂
In the east it always was possible to visit without appointment... it is not like the ghettos near Amsterdam.
If you have to make an appointment you are not a friend but an acquaintance.
Probably bigtown culture is different from rural areas. Universaly.
Remember to aproach a person without bias. Even if the other doesnt. Bias is insecurity.
Character and personality trumps culture. Rightwing insecure people are tribal. Flags.
I.m Dutch and direct and honest. I don.t like to play games and talk about someone's back.
The Dutch directness is often overrated in my opinion. As a Dutch I can clearly state: There will still be talk behind your back, there are still hidden agendas and there is still more to the eye, than being communicated. The Dutch directness is rather a lack of diplomacy, communication skills and an upfront attitude.
It's not a lack of skill at all. We could but just don't give a damn.
@@classicallpvault8251 thanks for confirming my point.
But I don't want diplomacy, I do like an upfront attitude. And communication skills are what is in the eye of the beholder. Good communication skills in China will be vastly different than in the Netherlands. I usually just say what I want to say. If it is bad news for the receiver, I will sugercoat it a little, but not much. Main thing is the message is clear and it does not take too many words (for it becomes less clear then).
@@ronaldderooij1774 sure… go visit other countries and develop an international perspective. Don’t put The Netherlands as a starting point, but be open minded (I know it’s hard) and be objective, take a step back and absorb (don’t judge).
@@claudiavalentijn1457 that’t bs and you know it. As if the Dutch are ‘too busy’. Try again.
30 years here, working and all that, originally from Latvia, can say that people are distant and very greedy, most of our friends all foreigners from diffent counties.
sorry, there's plenty of talking behind the back.
Don’t agree, I have always felt very welcome. Drop in for coffee any time.
Of course, there are always personal and regional difference. Thanks for sharing
Dutch got many celebration days
We actually have the least of them in Europe or at the bottom.
Normal to make an appointment most people work and have a busy week
They often want to do things nice with their family and kids so they have spare time !!!
Zo tezien wonen er veel Engelsen in NL.
Alle reacties in Engels 😊
Most of the Dutch seem to have answered in English as well.
im Dutch but never made an appointment to visit a friend. i think it all depends on the friend and how busy they are. I heard that lot in other reaction videos, but i think its....crap
Well, let's see what other people have to say in future videos. But that's someone's experience, an experience made by many people.
Als je Nederland komt zorg er voor dat je wat Nederlands spreek zorg er voor dat je weet wat ons tikt in plaats te verwachten dat we maar egels voor jullie blijven spreken als je hier wil blijven wonen zorg er wel voor dat je binnen 3 a 4 jaar onze taal ken
ooh yes that is also my opinion. i lived there and i was horrified when one day i was in the same street and wanted to say hello to a couple i knew. they flatly said its nearly 6 and its dinner time we cannot let you in. i never contacted them again.. i moved to amsterdam where i befriended people from the antillies and expats. just normal spontaneous people. the dutch are rude in their so called directnes. and very racist. but....secretly😊
Simply not True , you generalize , many Dutch are not like that !!
It's a habitat that you don't knock to say hello at dinner time, before it would be okay, and probably you'd be invited for dinner but you have to give people time to arrange something. Also after dinner is okay, but saying it is racist when you don't know or respect the local habits is stupid.
Not if they assimilate. But many do not. Thats a big problem of THEM
Waarm altijd weer in Amsterdam? Dat is een hele slechte steekproef.
Because for the channel I interview people in capital cities at first (with the exception of Barcelona). After I interviewed people in a significant amount of European capitals, I would like to come back to Den Haag or Rotterdam. Or perhaps even the south of NL. But this will still need some time.
sinterklaas well known not dutch holiday
5:24 he doesn't really know what to say about the Dutch😂😂
Im dutch, what she says is not true. I pass often to my friends without appointment. No problem
nonsense. if i wanna go over to my friend i go over and that's it.
Dijkstraat.
Very nice. Yes that is.
She is standing on a bike lane 😩😅
Always so funny to see these expats. They basically know not much about real Dutch culture. They stay safely within the A10 Ring-highway, far away from the areas where the more poor and normal people live. Try take a tram or subway an venture out into the outer neighboorhouds in Noord, West or East. Or even the Bijlmer if you dare. A totally different world.
The lady actually lives in Noord and has been living in the Netherlands for more than 20 years. Only the last 4 years were in Amsterdam.
Amsterdam has nothing to do with real dutch culture….
Amsterdam is the only kosmopolitan city in NL.
We lost the ability to come together with neighbors during feminism from the 1960s onwards. It was a gradual process. In the countryside it is still common among the elderly and acquaintances. Even though the Dutch are very clumsy and brutal, they like to talk behind your back, just like everywhere else. They hide their weaknesses by projecting. That what they do themselves is to blame you. Actually a very nasty way of doing things. The rejection and aversion to any authority also plays a role. So in 60 years the ''Dutch American law Dream'' through the further enlargement of the BRICS bloc is only a sign that the Western Christian culture by supporting the stupidest decision of the British (namely to make the state of Israel possible). Became the wedge for the world. Who, through lust for power and sheer greed for resources, repeats our animalistic aggressive lifestyle at the expense of others. Will it never get better?
I always appreciate when people can be critical towards their own culture. Thank you for your analysis.
There is LOTS of talking behind the back, especially if you are an Arab or a black person. You just probably don’t have close enough friends to share the gossip.
Thank you for sharing this. It seems like many people state that there is talking behind other's back. Do you have an idea why the Dutch are perceived as so direct?
@@TheMovementHub Thanks for asking. I think the directness only applies to areas where Dutch can easily win. Cycling without lights? Bam, what an idiot! In the UK for instance, people are more patient with each other. So Dutch rudeness comes across as directness. However, Dutch people approaching others to discuss serious issues is unheard of. People will avoid uncomfortable topics (where they can’t win easily) as much as they possibly can.
Talking behind someone's back happens in every culture , not only in the Netherlands !
@@josephwhirlwind6086 Absolutely! But then don’t call it a direct culture. Not much direct about it. People confuse rudeness and directness.