There are top sword makers in the world that have said the way Albion makes swords (not forging) is perfectly fine because of the other processes and quality of steel they are using. Their swords are the best you can get unless you can afford to have someone like Peter Johnsson forge one for you.
Agreed, i cannot see a problem with using machines to make swords, their faster, more accurate, precise and they save a heap of work. And used to construct a sword like Albion is doing, a better product.
Albion goes through painstaking work to get the exact dimensions of originals from museums and private collections whereas Darksword make rough guesses from pictures and often come out with clunky, poor quality replicas. Albion also have a dedicated team who carve and cast their hilt pieces and heat treat their blades. There is physical work and there is also a lot of tedious, mentally tasking work. Paying $1000 gives compensation to the workers for their work. It's simple really.
+Denis Jackson You speak the truth,Xray's, modern metallurgy, Rockwell hardness test matched with computer laser guided CnC machines equals superior swords. Fact.
Frankly, they are not. The steel and heat treatment is probably better then anything done in the middle ages. However, there are certainly custom sword makers (both smiths and stock removal) nowadays who use better quality steel, and a heat treatment that is just as good as albion. Albion does not disclose what steel they use, but from what I've seen I guess is't a simple high carbon steel like 1075. Albion makes excellent swords, probably the best production swords you can buy. But better then ANYTHING made today, certainly not.
I don't know what steel they are using. It holds an edge pretty well, but they rust very easily. Cold Steel blades are a bit softer, but for some reason I can put a better edge on them (and they cut much better in general). Moreover, they can be touched with bare hands without rusting (still, they can rust). However, Albion is several orders of magnitude better when it comes to handling and fittings (the latter really sucks in case of CS: rattling guards, oblique crossguards, protrusions that injure your hand, discolorations and an abysmal QC)
How is the steel they use better than the steel any smith can get his hands on, I can order any steel Albion use, they use 5160 spring steel, it's not expensive, they used to use 1075, and again that isn't special to Albion. Any modern swordsmith can make something just as good or better. This is the mass production markets best, not the worlds best, custom smiths can and do make swords just as good. Albion actually started off making shit swords, I remember years ago when I saw them making swords without even hot working the crossguard on. So those are all already inferior to my swords, because I've never made a sword without a hot worked guard or peened tang.
Despite all the negative comments, these swords are superbly made compared to essentially everything else on the market. Yeah it's pricey, but you get what you pay for, machine made or not. A custom fully handmade sword would most likely be about $500 more.
A local blacksmith can make you a fully handforged sword for 500$ or sometimes a lot less. Albion has some 2000$ swords cnc cutted and without much details, I think it's a bit excessive.
+Stefan Michael from a reputable smith, aka from a guy that can bump the price like gucci does with clothes. If you want à medieval sword made by hand you can have it cheaper. Not saying it will look like an albion but it will work perfectly for its intended purpose
Bladesmith chiming in: I think you are underestimating the amount of work and money it takes to make a blade. The steel for the blade alone is about $40, but I also need fittings, wood, and leather for the grip. Getting it to shape is the easy part; it takes hours upon grueling hours of polishing. Do me a favor; take an angle grinder to a piece of metal, then go smooth it out with files and sandpaper. Let me know how many hours it takes you to get a short piece to 400 grit. You're also going to pay for the fuel used in forging, the electricity used to power my heat treating oven, and the heap of abrasives I wear out making this thing. $500, fuck off.
Historical sword production used a lot more grinding than was previously thought. Roughly forged blade blanks were ground down on huge grind stones, in a process somewhat resembling that used by Albion. The image of the lone blacksmith forging a sword from start to finish is a bit of a myth. Sword blades were mass produced in their thousands at the major production centres in Germany and then exported all over Europe to be hilted in whatever style was desired.
Only very few historical pommels could be detached. It's far easier to peen it than to create thread, especially with something equivalent to a backyard forge. Moreover, I haven't seen any screwed on pommel, that actually stays in place, even without hitting a target. I can only think of two ways that a pommel could have been thrown back then: 1) a sword broke at it's weakest point, thereby the pommel flies off (most underestimate the forces involved on this part). 2) The pommel was only held in place by a pin (similar to how handles are fixed on a Katana)
I own 2 Albions. I have a Squire Line 13th Century Knightly Sword (which has been sharpened by Albion, they did a beautiful job on it too) and a Next Gen Poitiers. The Poitiers is an amazing sword, its as light as a feather, and balanced like a fishing rod; very fast. Albion makes a suberb product when you first hold an Albion sword it really is a revelation!
Sure, Albion sword are expensive. But as Peter Johnsson designed blades they are still a fraction of the cost of Peter Johnsson forged ones. And then Johnsson still "cheats" by using a power hammer and similar machines.
Albion does a good job of putting out there a product that is as close as possible to recreating the original product without the calamitous expense of recreating the original process.
Hand made from a forge has a more mystic allure and sort of a magic to it. Though the fact is, these swords are stronger and more precise then hand made. Besides, you will pay thousands more for handmade from a ingot because of the labor involved.
Could you imagine the waiting list and time frame if they still hand forged their swords. Theirs not enough quality sword manufactures today and the ones that we have are barely able to keep up with the demand for their products.
Been reading a lot of comments, which are close to the truth about their quality and why you should buy one. I own one, so I'll share my personal opinion. I'm no expert but I can speak from experience. What you are paying for when you purchase an Albion Sword is: 1) Consistency, 2) Historical Accuracy, 3) Reputation, and 4) price. First, consistency. Are these the 'best' swords that you can buy? No. A master blacksmith could probably forge you a better sword using a slightly superior steel, yet two swords will not have the consistency that a CNC Machined Sword will. That is what differentiates Albion from the competition. My Albion Steward will be practically identical to another Steward. I have experienced many $500 Chinese Hand and a Half Sword where one is amazing, then another (of the exact same sword) is absolutely terrible. Second, historical accuracy. Albion makes museum line swords which are obviously based on real, medieval swords that we have today. Their New Generation swords are based off of what a soldier/night/legionnaire would have had in the old days based on written accounts/archaeological finds. When buying an Albion, you know you are getting as close to the weapons used by our ancestors centuries ago. Third, reputation. Albion is a brand name and for good reason. If something is wrong with your blade, they will fix it. They are clear and open about their manufacturing process. This combined with the above two reasons make it a comfortable purchase knowing you are supporting a family business, getting a consistent product...but most importantly a product that would have impressed and earned the respect of those whose lives were dependent on these weapons centuries ago. Finally, price. Are these expensive? Yes. But what is the next step in quality? Probably having a blacksmith forge you a sword. Let's just assume for comparison that your handmade forged sword is better quality (better steel, no air pockets, nicer pommel and handguard, etc). How much will that cost? There will be hours of labor in grinding, polishing (sanding, sanding, and more sanding with a lot of added filing), fitting the parts together, etc. This is not slave labor, it's made by an expert. It won't be cheap. My friend is a blacksmith, he estimates a handmade sword would range between $4000 and $7000 depending on complexity. So how does Albion play into this? It is the final step before jumping to these extremely expensive swords....swords the average man cannot afford. It truly is the best sword for the money. I hope this helps some of you in your decision wether or not to purchase one. Let me know if you have questions and I'll try to answer from my experience.
I placed an order for an Albion Mercenary a few days ago, now begins the 11 month wait for it, not including the scabbard that it needs. Years ago, I used to wonder why Albion swords were so expensive, why wouldn't I just buy a $300 - $400 sword from Hanwei or Windlass? Well, the simple reason is that Albion cannot (and should not) compete on the low end because quality costs more. There is a strong market for high quality replicas (entirely made in the USA, always a bonus) and Albion fills that need, and the swords simply have to be more expensive to pay for everything and still turn a profit. Obviously Hanwei and Windlass and all the other manufacturers out there can make a sword for less, but that's because they pay their workers much less to begin with and there is probably a high turnover rate so the skills and experience vary widely and you get inconsistent quality. The blades may also not be historically accurate in shape, weight, and may feel off when they are actually used. Maybe the hilts will start to loosen over time, the heat treat is spotty, etc. Also, Albion swords have an intrinsic value that the mass manufactured stuff don't have - at least, to me. I wouldn't think twice of selling a Hanwei Scottish baskethilt sword, or disposing of a Cold Steel shamshir, or whatever. They're cheap, disposable swords that are cool to have, but are not special to me. I can pick one up in an instant at KoA and smash it on tree trunks without caring that much. That's their purpose, they're collectible in a sense, but also disposable due to their relatively low cost. Albion swords not only have high quality / fit / finish / historical accuracy / dynamics, their supply is limited by demand. There's the 11 month wait, and only 500 of the sword model will be made world wide. The Mercenary will one day go out of stock forever, and you may find a replacement model that's basically the same blade but different hilt and pommel and grip, different COG and weight, but it won't be a Mercenary. Frankly, I find it amazing that Albion is able to offer these many different models of swords that have enough differences to make them viable as standalone models while retaining historical accuracy.
the Guy with the hair, at the grinding wheel. Joe Waites. he was on Forged in Fire. S1, Ep1. He was the 1st to be eliminated. heated his blade too hot and broke the tip, and had multiple cracks along the blade.
FiF is an AWFUL metric for a craftsman's skill. Artificial drama factors like extra-short deadlines rush the work that SHOULD NOT be rushed, so what you see is about the best work the person could do under those circumstances, but FAR from their actual best work.
Also apart from cutting the initial sword 'blank' by CNC machine the rest of the manufacturing is done by hand. They are also a limited edition product, some of the lines are sold out. I can understand that some people want a unique hand made product and thats fine. But what you get from Albion is a very accurate repro, designed with great reference to originals; a quality product at a reasonable price. In fact they are probably better than a lot of, if not most custom makers out there today.
I, for one, would enjoy wielding such a sword no less than a hand-crafted one. Old European martial arts are very practical, and a sword made like that emphasizes that, that's how I look at it. Then, a lot of work went into creating this blade. Not only the method of quenching is quite tricky (mess up the angle for 10-15 degrees while cooling and your blade is ruined), but the reproduction of these blades from museum originals, made by Peter Johnsson (a master bladesmith by the way) is huge.
VikingFromHalland Nope, the company started in washington d.c, and they are based in Wisconsin now. And they are expensive because they are excellent swords, 6150 steel is the best you can get for a sword. I bought the viking hersir a long time ago and it is awesome! :D You get what you pay for, yep.
HEAR MEROAR their crecy is an earlier bulkier type longsword. More suitable for heavy two handed blows. A true warsword. The earl is a later type. It is more versatile and a true cut and thrust longsword made for fencing as it is pictured in the manuscripts. Personally I think the Earl is one of the best and most beautiful swords Albion has to offer. In terms of quality however, the Crecy is just as good.
docbaduck me too I buy paul binn hand made sword (cheaper) than albion sword .....albion swords are beautiful but overpriced expecially because the fuller is machine made
docbaduck me too I buy paul binn hand made sword (cheaper) than albion sword .....albion swords are beautiful but overpriced expecially because the fuller is machine made
Stefano Tavelli Unlike many sword makers Albion goes out and does the research on antique swords from the middle ages. They also use a steel that is really high quality. Sure it's machined but it allows for consistency, the whole purpose of forging was not only to shape the blade but to redistribute impurities in the steel so it wouldn't affect the integrity of the blade as much. Since we can make steel that is very precise and pure now, forging isn't as necessary. Hardening and tempering is what gives the blade it's integrity, durability, and flexibility. Make other sword makers don't make high quality or accurate products either. An average longsword weighs about 2-3 pounds and Albion is aware of that and their products have very close if not identical characteristics to the originals. Distal taper, fuller, pommel fill, all factor in for the weight and balance of the piece. Many other makers just don't get that.
Sigvulcanas I know it but all this thing in my personal opinion don't make albion swords better than other cheaper sword.Can you tell me what is the high quality steel that albion use and why is better then other steel...
The way Albion attaches the pommel and guard are also the same as most period swords; that is they 'hot peen' and wedge the guard in place before attaching the grip. This means the pommel and guard are attached to the tang and not compression fitted (ie relying on the pommel to hold everything together). They won't come loose after a week of use. Most other makers use combinations of screwed pommels and or epoxy or 'cold peened' construction. All those types of constructions aren't as strong.
The Japanese and the Vikings, who pioneered this technique, were using charcoal, to the best of my understanding. I use coal myself, and in a properly built fire, any sulphur gets burned off long before it starts to combust, you wet it down first. To the contrary, now that we have the technology available to us, they have done some very interesting studies of these metals at the molecular level, and its very impressive. I'd recommend you look into some of them, its really interesting stuff.
$800 for a machine made sword blade? BAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! "Hand forging is a waste of time with modern day steels" No, you're not understanding. If I'm going to pay an arm and a leg, I'm going to want it made by hand. "Machining eliminates small differences from blade to blade" Good for machined blades. I want a hand made, unique blade that's accurate to the real ones.And for $800 those sons of bitches better stitch the leather onto the grip! And no scabbard!?!?!?!?!?
***** Congrats, you became the kind of person I was mocking. Don't get butt hurt bud. I'm just saying if I'm going to spend an arm and a leg on a sword, I want a sword that was crafted just like the old days, meaning a hand forged blade, not a machined blade. A hand stitched leather wrapped grip, not a glued grip. Hand polished hilt and pommel, not a CNC machined hilt or pommel. I'm don't wanted a precision made, 100% perfect sword, because no sword made back in the 12th century was 100% perfect but that's not the point of your argument, is it bud? You see, people like you are a special breed and I'll be honest, I've been waiting for you. There's tons of people like you. You're not the only one, but unfortunately, today, you are the one I make my point with. You think because a sword cost $1,000.00 you are holier than everyone else. I could jump into a time machine, go back to the 12th century, get a freshly made Crusader sword straight from the greatest swordsmith of the time, bring it back in pristine condition and lay it down next to your Albion sword, and you'd still beat your chest like an ape foaming at the mouth about how Holier Albion swords are because your sword cost $1,000.00, even if I say again I want a sword that was made just like they did back in the 12th century. In fact, you remind me of this old bitch I met at a car service shop when I was getting my car checked on. She asked me what car I had and I told her I drive a modest car. She then stuck her nose up at me and proclaim she drove a Cadillac Escalade. Just because you can afford to throw $1,000.00 at a machined sword doesn't make the sword worth more than a historically accurate recreated sword, it just means you're fucking stupid enough to buy a $1,000.00 machined sword. Any person with an ounce of common fucking sense would not believe a machined blade cost more than an individual hand forged blade of similar quality. Of course, you could grasp at the futile argument other sword manufactures use belt sanders to form some of the pieces despite the fact they hand similar devices back in the medieval day but lets be honest, shall we? You're just a fucking sword snob.
+120masterpiece ,Xray's, Modern metallurgy, Rockwell hardness test matched with computer laser guided CnC machines equals superior swords. Hand forged swords break easier (not easy, unless its utter shit) no matter how skilled the smith is his sword will have impurities in the blade, the steel blanks Albion uses are 99.9% impurity free, no blacksmith in history or today can say that(and that's not even getting into the exact science Albion uses for heat treatment vs the traditional way of judging by eye and sound) . Many that buy Albions don't just hang them on the wall, we use them actively in sword feats, test cutting live edge sword drilling exe very few who buy forged swords use them for such feats, why you may ask? A hand forged sword to the standards of an Albion cost a hell of a lot more, they have a much higher chance of failing and as far as I know their is no hand forged sword that comes with a life time warranty (if you know of one please tell me I would like to look into it) , Albions are cheaper, stronger and have that sweet life time warranty. epoxy leather wraps with linen partial is unbelievably sturdy, a hand sewed wrap is often times a sign of a cheaply made weapon. you can pay many thousands of dollars for a hand forged sword ( usually power hammers and modern grinders are used still) and then come to find out that the fittings are made out of bronze. I love hand forged weapons but they will never be as solid as Albions machined swords. This is the opinion of a a blacksmith and HEMA practitioner, its not meant to be an insult to you or yours, cheers friend.
***** Yes you are correct. I sold a Katana to a guy who looked like he was 65 last week at a gun and knife show, he tried to tell me that since it was a hand forged Katana made out of Damascus steel (made in Pakistan) that it could slice through 3 brass door nobs! As I was making a sale I just smiled and said I don't know about that but theirs only one way to find out, I ended up with 500 more bucks, he will end up with a warped blade (sad) . Their is no convening some folks.
Yes, having two edges and a straight blade, not only made thrusting more effective, but also made for good "back" edge cutting, making two edged swords, far more versatile. Except for the katana, and later military sabres, armies generally always used straight two edged swords, for that reason (although curved blades were sometimes used for cavalry) As to other single edge swords, one of my favourites is the Großes Messer. Partially due to it's name. (it's German for "big knife")
To be fair, I'm not an expert on the subject, although I have studied the subject to a certain extent. Here's an analogy: imagine the original rectangle as a piece of wood with the grains running the length of the piece. Cut it, you cut the grains in place. Imagine instead squeezing the wood like you would playdough, and the grain lines bend in places, and compress together in others. The end result is stronger.
Another point is that because someone may see beauty in a sword does not mean that it was made with the intention of being a work of art. Its true that in the dark ages swords were prized and expensive items, but as superior steel production techniques were discovered, swords became increasingly common place. By the 10thC most soldiers had one and by the 14thC a servicable blade could be aquired for a few pence. Even in Japan sword production was on a large scale, especially in the 16thC.
There are a few battle-ready manufacturers who make durable carbon-steel swords designed for full-force stage combat (i.e., blunted tips and no edges). I recommend Starfire Swords, which carry a warranty. They're not cheap by any means, but they are less expensive than the prices for Albion swords cited here. All of their swords are forged in Spencer, NY by a master blacksmith (Zak) and just a few assistants.
Sword is just a tool for a warrior. There is no soul in a metal stick, it can be adored as an object, but don't go overboard. Respect the martial artist and the smith (a LOT of work went in recreating the geometrical design of this blade, the way it's forged is just simplified for production, not only making it easier for the manufactured but actually making it available for customers, price-wise).
If you start with good high carbon steel, forging becomes simply a shaping process. Its the heat treatment and quenching that will make or (pardon the pun) break the sword.
The process of folding was abandoned long before modern times, since even old blasting furnaces were able to produce steel with already evened out chemical components. Combining hard and soft materials was pretty much forgotten too, since it was needed to combine the hard edge with flexibility and strength, with better steel and the method of tempering introduced. swords could be made both hard and flexible, without having to combine different materials.
Albion are well known for the high quality of their hilts. A good blade is relatively easy to make, but most flaws amongst other manufacturers, is in the hilt. I don't remember ever hearing anyone (mostly fellow students of medieval swordsmanship), say _anything_ negative about Albion's hilts.
From my understanding, pattern welding was, to an extent, used because of the inferior materials they had available to them, but not to eliminate impurities. By welding high carbon and low carbon steel together to form that many layers, the result was more flexible and resilient than a pure high carbon blade would be and harder and sharper than a pure low carbon blade would be. And, of course, I'm sure it also had to do with aesthetics.
That model, 'The Knight' costs about $800; pretty expensive but Albion swords are just about the finest production European swords you can buy. In fact they are probably better than custom hand made pieces from many makers.
I think another important point to make is that only part of the manufacture of this sword is actually accomplished by a machine. The blades edge profile, polish temper, hilt, etc are all finished by hand, by a skilled craftsman. Although the same sword can be made over and over they all have slight differences. Also there are historical examples of swords which have been made by the same maker and look almost identical. I can think of at least 3 instances off the top of my head.
"In fact, the technique you are describing was only common in middle and northern europe during the late pre and post roman iron age, and was effectively ceased by around 900 AD" I forgot to comment on this: It was also used in e.g. China and Japan. The exact execution differed, but it's the same process, the same purpose, and the same result. European pattern welding and Japanese folding are pretty much the same thing.
Welding different steel was only done before high quality steels came in. Back then it was either hard and brittle or resilient and soft. Now it's both.
In Europe, they were bade from solid blocks of metal, the reason being the invention of th blast furnace which helps produce high quality steel. Katanas were not made out of thin sheets... they were made of a single block that was folded back on itself about 10 times or so to create layers and remove impurities from the Japanese steel. This was needed since Japan had poorer quality ore than Europe. In earlier times, European smiths used pattern welding to get the same kind of effect.
Albion swords from the Next Generation and Museum Lines (the vast majority of the swords they make) are all limited editions usually ranging from 1,000 to as few as 100 of each. Some lines are sold out. So Albion Swords are pretty scarce in an age of mass production.
Fullers should be forged into the blade because it makes the metal more dense at that point. When you grind away metal it also affects the heat treatment.
These are made by Wisconsin based company Albion. Est. cost $700 up to $1000. Have a look at their web-site for more detailed info. Albion are considered one best reproduction cutlers in the business.
I don't think the core point was about the performance, the point was about the pride in craftsmanship. Here's an example: I bought a cabinet hand-made by a master woodworker who put in a lot of his time making it. Is it functionally any different than something I could buy off the shelf far cheaper? No. Is the cabinet I buy off the shelf somehow inadequate or bad? No. But I appreciate it more because I know how it was made, and that it is unique. Different strokes for different folks.
For a factory-made sword, this seems both authentic and reasonably priced. It cannot match what can be constructed by a true swordsmith, though, nor is it intended to be, it is what it is. A true swordsmith compresses the grain size as he forms the edge, making it harder, rather than simply cutting those grains off as you would a piece of wood. He forge welds and folds different alloys of steel to make it both hard and resilient. He takes much more care in heat treating than is shown here.
Forging is a shaping process, it doesn't have an appreciable effect on hardness and flexibiltiy. The two factors that do are the quality of steel and how well it has been heat treated. Heating the steel to high temps transforms brittle micro structures such as martensite into more flexible, softer crystal structures. Quenching the steel rapidly cools the outside leaving more of the harder structures intact , while the inside, taking longer to cool will be softer and more flexible.
Regardless, steel was fairly material for all but the cheapest of swords. It is important to note that there was no actual mixing involved, as in medieval times they could not melt the iron. They carburized it by adding carbon to blooms which carbon reacted with the oxygen in the air which super-heated the carbon molecules and effectively forced them into the iron matrix. The other way was to start with iron that had TOO MUCH carbon in it and pound it out until they had the proper proportions.
I agree that it was initially done because of the type of material they had available to them, but it remains the best technique. That tradeoff still exists, even with high quality steel. Martensite is what makes it hard, and martensite is brittle, there's no way around that. If you want hard and you also want resilient, you need a blend of different kinds of steel, there's just no way of avoiding that.
I can understand the point the author was making, although your point is also valid. The answer, I think, is price. The most cost efficient way to do it is this way, giving you a high quality sword for a very reasonable price. But there is nevertheless another market at a much higher price point for a handcrafted sword made the traditional way which, imho, yields a better result with a greater sense of art and craftsmanship. (Caveat: I'm not an expert, this is just an amateur's opinion)
I would certainly agree that in general high quality carbon steel reduced the need for pattern welding, other than for aesthetics, but in swords I would still assert that it remains the best approach. A sword needs a very flexible spine and needs a razor sharp, and hard, edge. You can't achieve this optimally with a single kind of steel. You can get a very good result, but not an optimal result.
Albion wedge and HOT PEEN their hilts, that kind of hilt construction is historically authentic and won't loosen. Almost every other maker, including most custom makers will COLD PEEN and compression fit their hilts. A compression fitted hilt will often loosen due to the wood grip shrinking and/or the peen weakening because too much stress is put on it. Albion hilts avoid this because all of the parts are supporting themselves not relying on the pommel peen to keep them together
mrbeast85 I have also been a modern competition fencer for over 22 years, and used full wieght weaponry for almost as long. I have handled many makes of swords from the cheap eastern ones to Albion swords, and they aren`t that much better than the eastern ones. When my students reach an acceptable skill level, I let them use one of my hand made swords so that they can get use to handling the different feel of properly made weapons.
It's a Canadian show and narrator. Also, these swords are highly sought-after in the sword collecting and Western martial arts community for quality. Each of their designs are based off of actual museum pieces, and made from modern alloys. The fact that they are not hammered out makes no difference in their ability to cut or their durability.
also.. there is close to no stress in the steel as a result of milling out the blade since its cooled troughout the whole process, any eventual stress would come from the preforged steel plade the blade is cut from.
Its interesting to note that the 'lower end' makers (Hanwei, Cold Steel, Valiant Armoury, Gen 2, Windlass etc) don't use CNC machines. They have their blades forged by hand in China or India. Those companies manufacture in bulk and sell for less than half the price of Ablion (sometimes even below $200/£130). That would seem strange given that its so cheap to use a CNC machine?
No, Albion produce a medieval sword called 'The Poitiers'. Its named after the Battle of Poitiers (1356) fought in the Hundred Years War, Poitiers itself is a town in Western central France. The sword is in the style of an arming sword that would have appeared during the 14th Century. Most of the Swords from Albion are named after battles or famous Medieval characters etc. Albion doesn't currently produce any rapiers, though they no doubt have plans to do so in the future.
agreed. A truely wellbuilt sword is made from layered steel. not cut out of a larger chunk. I garantee that if you hit anything with this sword. that it would just bend and snap.
The typical way a sword was made in the middle ages was in a large factory, run by a guild, with a division of labor (although one would advance as their skills improved) and, they used machines, powered by water wheels to forge, removal metal and, to sharpen the blades. The blades were forged, but they used technology too! Swordsmithing wasn't some mystical, magical endeavor.
I agree completely. For the price point, the methods used are very commendable and from my limited knowledge, the results have an excellent reputation. I'm simply saying that cutting, rather than compressing, the grain must necessarily lead to ever so slightly inferior results, despite the care taken in the rest of the process. Your comment about eliminating scale is peculiar though. Heat treating comes after, not before, forging.
@branch42 keep in mind that norse blades were made of iron not steel. they're blades would be heavier and more prone to weathering from environmental exposure.
@branch42 The fuller has less steel because it has less stress, and the reduced weight makes the sword livelier. At the very centerline the bending stress goes to zero, and in theory you could have just enough thickness to take shear.
Period swords actually were mass produced to an extent. The romantic image of the lone swordsmith slaving over his anvil is a bit of a myth. Sword blades would have been made in large numbers at places such as Solingen, Passau or Toledo and then exported to local cutlers for hilting in whatever style. There are instances of almost identical swords being found, for example a cache of 80 swords discovered in the river Dordogne had many that were obviously made by the same workshop.
Phrased that way, it makes sense, the machining is the process that removes the possibility of scale getting hammered into it. Bladesmiths worth their salt obviously wouldn't do this, but the machining process does eliminate the possibility completed, agreed.
And believe you me, they're not cheap. I own a couple of them. Some of the world's foremost practicioners of swordsmanship consider Albion swords among their favourite blades. I have two Albion sharps and a blunt trainer, and they're top notch.
@morrowray1 forging is a process of heating and quenching the blade to a shape and then using tools to edge the steel. thats what the video says. if you look he's heating the blade "by hand" and quenching it "by hand" than using a grinder to sharpen it "by hand" the only machine process is the "blank" cut from a steel plate
Forging has no bearing at all on the heat treatement of a blade. Forging removes impurites, evens carbon and shapes or 'draws' out the blade. If you start with a good piece of steel with even carbon and desired levels of impurites forging is merely a shaping process and can be dispensed with, grinding is perfectly acceptable as a substitute. A blade is only heat treated after forging/shaping and the basic form has been ground into it, prior to final sharpening and polising.
1. Folding and hammering was only used to ensure a equal level of carbon and thus quality throughout the blade. 2. They fricking used this very technique when the steelforging got better but instead of cutting with a CNC they grinded it. 3. I understand that you want your katana folded for a proper Hamon but really, if they folded the steel used in this video they only weakened it. Hand-made is for sentimental value only.
Exactly right Zarlan! Albion may not use historically authentic techniques (though they are closer than you might think), but what they are doing is using modern technology to allow them to reproduce, almost exactly, the same sword again and again. The end product is the same as the medieval equivalent in all important respects. Also they are reproducing a prototype designed by noted scholar and swordsmith Peter Johnsson, in effect you are getting a clone of a sword he has forged by hand.
yes it is iron is a mineral the metal that our saying is steel which is a refined iron through a heating and mixing process and also the grinding wheels that you talked about was used to make mass produced swords the one that they are making in this video as you can see uses craftmanship but not of the blacksmith but of the machine
the katana was made to be a razorblade sharp edge. however swords like the claymore here where carried by knights. in japan is was a matter of order, in europe it was about war and armour.
True on all counts. I was just pointing out that you don't have to spend thousands on a hand forged sword by a master blade smith to get something of quality, worth owning. Albion's squire line is a good example.
@Ranziel1 Actually, a forged sword is FAR stronger than a "stock removal" sword. When a stock removal sword is made, the grains of the steel are cut, weakening the crystal structure of the steel. In a forged sword, the grains are bent which maintains the integrity of the crystaline structure.
@MrQualia : That's because European swords were made out of superior iron ore, and didn't HAVE to have as muchwork put into them to make them. No need to fold the steel or pattern weld, not necessarry.
Functionality, durability and flexibility, are all areas in which Albion swords are praised for their excellent quality. (well there are some makers, that have greater durability ...at the expense of other features)
When a blade is forged that is the process of shaping the blade. As blades were traditionally made, they were hammer forged by a smithy. A blade made my stock removal isn't really "forged" at all because it is made from premanufactured steel sheets. A hammer forged blade will always be inherently cared for much more closely than a blade made by machines, because of the long man hours dedicated to each blade. The prices of Albion swords reflect hammer-forged blades, but simply are not. continued.
mrbeast85 All without fail either, sell them ( including Albion swords), or wall hang them for display only, as that`s all they are good for. My personal preferance are for weapons made by Tim Noyes of Heron Armoury, he makes reasonably priced sparring swords, which mine have lasted for years, and taken quite a pounding. Right up to beatifull fully edged pattern welded swords with gold or silver inlay. It depends on how much you want to spend.
Albion makes good swords. But, a ground fuller is in all ways inferior to a forged fuller. The forged fuller changes the grain structure of the blade. This makes it more flexible in the directions that it needs to be, and stronger in the others. It also conserves steel, milling out the fuller does little if any of these.
If you visited a medieval 'sword shop' you probably had to visit a number of places, rarely was the final blade the product of one persons labor. It was more like a production line. Simple blades aside, think of the suit's of armor and the technology that was needed to field whole armies of well equpied soldiers, hell, it's pretty much the earliest example of a modern industry.
Albion also makes false edged stuff for $400-$550 order online. There are also blade blaks. For people who want to make their own hilt. They cost $140 u.s
A lot of scientific work was put into this one, Peter Johnson is a master blade smith that has put a lot of research into his blades that resemble originals as close as possible. The making process is here to reduce the price and make the blade geometry perfect. They are making swords for modern practitioners of the art, swords that work and perform like the originals... so why not take the most efficient way to do that?
If there is one criticism I have with regards to Albion swords, it is that they look too perfect. In any event, quality is top notch and my Albion has the status as a family heirloom, along with the guns.
That's the difficulty of holding a conversation one 500 character paragraph at a time, hours apart, unfortunately, at least for me, sometimes I lose track of the thread. The basic point I was trying to get at was that while you need a hard/sharp edge and a soft/springy center. You could achieve this with a complex heat treating process (quenching the edges differently than the core), but it would be made easier with different types of steel.
"it was an exmple for a cold steel triple action folder" Yes, but it was an example, to illustrate a point about "machine made" vs hand forged swords, so my point still stands. But even if I were to grant that the difference is still minuscule, and the engraving can be added later, anyway.
Ah, Albion. Great manufacturer. I own a couple of Next Gen's and a Liechtenauer, and have handled a bunch of their other models. They're simply amazing. The handling is unreal. Worth every penny.
"Sounds to me like a biased oppinion based on want rather than fact." That's what I'd say about your opinions. I have looked this stuff up. Pattern welding (which the folding is a type of), was used in europe since about 300 BC, until about 1000, when it had been largely abandoned due to proper steel, from blast furnaces. With such steel, pattern welding would only serve to weaken the steel.
Pattern welding is, and was, often done for decorative purposes, but historically, back before the blast furnace, it also helped to make the metal more homogenized and remove impurities from it. This is only true for metals of poor quality, as pattern welding good quality steel would only add weak points
For a start William Wallace and his men were not a gang of wild kilt wearing highlanders as depicted in the movies. They were dressed and armed pretty much as any other northern Europeans would be. Wallace, Douglas and the other in his band were armed and trained as Late 13th/Early 14th Century knights. His men were mostly spear armed and fought in close formations known a Schiltrons; a block of spearmen; to carry out such tactics on the battlefield they must have been trained and drilled.
...Albion swords are made with great reference to originals in museum collections which is what makes them better than most other repros. I'd say they are just as effective as the originals, though how you'd test this I'm not sure. Actually using a belt grinder will not ruin the temper of the sword if its used correctly. If you notice only relatively swift passes are made, it won't generate enough heat to noticably alter the temper if its done this way.
There are top sword makers in the world that have said the way Albion makes swords (not forging) is perfectly fine because of the other processes and quality of steel they are using. Their swords are the best you can get unless you can afford to have someone like Peter Johnsson forge one for you.
Don't give a good goddamn wether they're machine made or not, these pieces of art handle like a dream!
+gameboxfreak Thank you! Most of the people complaining about Albion swords in this comment section have never even held an Albion!
Agreed, i cannot see a problem with using machines to make swords, their faster, more accurate, precise and they save a heap of work. And used to construct a sword like Albion is doing, a better product.
Modern metal making has taken much of the guess work of forge work
@@jtl-en4yx oof
Albion goes through painstaking work to get the exact dimensions of originals from museums and private collections whereas Darksword make rough guesses from pictures and often come out with clunky, poor quality replicas. Albion also have a dedicated team who carve and cast their hilt pieces and heat treat their blades. There is physical work and there is also a lot of tedious, mentally tasking work. Paying $1000 gives compensation to the workers for their work. It's simple really.
The steel blanks used by Albion are higher quality than anything made by hand today or in the past.
+Denis Jackson You speak the truth,Xray's, modern metallurgy, Rockwell hardness test matched with computer laser guided CnC machines equals superior swords. Fact.
+robert paulson Exactly right. Fact.
Frankly, they are not. The steel and heat treatment is probably better then anything done in the middle ages.
However, there are certainly custom sword makers (both smiths and stock removal) nowadays who use better quality steel, and a heat treatment that is just as good as albion.
Albion does not disclose what steel they use, but from what I've seen I guess is't a simple high carbon steel like 1075.
Albion makes excellent swords, probably the best production swords you can buy. But better then ANYTHING made today, certainly not.
I don't know what steel they are using. It holds an edge pretty well, but they rust very easily. Cold Steel blades are a bit softer, but for some reason I can put a better edge on them (and they cut much better in general). Moreover, they can be touched with bare hands without rusting (still, they can rust). However, Albion is several orders of magnitude better when it comes to handling and fittings (the latter really sucks in case of CS: rattling guards, oblique crossguards, protrusions that injure your hand, discolorations and an abysmal QC)
How is the steel they use better than the steel any smith can get his hands on, I can order any steel Albion use, they use 5160 spring steel, it's not expensive, they used to use 1075, and again that isn't special to Albion. Any modern swordsmith can make something just as good or better.
This is the mass production markets best, not the worlds best, custom smiths can and do make swords just as good. Albion actually started off making shit swords, I remember years ago when I saw them making swords without even hot working the crossguard on. So those are all already inferior to my swords, because I've never made a sword without a hot worked guard or peened tang.
Despite all the negative comments, these swords are superbly made compared to essentially everything else on the market. Yeah it's pricey, but you get what you pay for, machine made or not.
A custom fully handmade sword would most likely be about $500 more.
Much more. Into the many thousands if it is truly all hand forged. I've seen them go for around 5000.
A local blacksmith can make you a fully handforged sword for 500$ or sometimes a lot less.
Albion has some 2000$ swords cnc cutted and without much details, I think it's a bit excessive.
I don't know what you're smoking but a hand forged custom sword from a reputable smith at THIS level will run you double what Albion asks, at least.
+Stefan Michael from a reputable smith, aka from a guy that can bump the price like gucci does with clothes. If you want à medieval sword made by hand you can have it cheaper. Not saying it will look like an albion but it will work perfectly for its intended purpose
Bladesmith chiming in: I think you are underestimating the amount of work and money it takes to make a blade. The steel for the blade alone is about $40, but I also need fittings, wood, and leather for the grip. Getting it to shape is the easy part; it takes hours upon grueling hours of polishing. Do me a favor; take an angle grinder to a piece of metal, then go smooth it out with files and sandpaper. Let me know how many hours it takes you to get a short piece to 400 grit. You're also going to pay for the fuel used in forging, the electricity used to power my heat treating oven, and the heap of abrasives I wear out making this thing. $500, fuck off.
It really doesn't matter where or how it's made, what really matters if it suits your needs.
Historical sword production used a lot more grinding than was previously thought. Roughly forged blade blanks were ground down on huge grind stones, in a process somewhat resembling that used by Albion.
The image of the lone blacksmith forging a sword from start to finish is a bit of a myth. Sword blades were mass produced in their thousands at the major production centres in Germany and then exported all over Europe to be hilted in whatever style was desired.
3:30, that's disappointing, how can they end him rightly?
who said the pommel has to be detached from the sword?
lol, that's the whole point of the joke. Watch Skallagrim's "End him rightly" video and you see what I mean
Only very few historical pommels could be detached. It's far easier to peen it than to create thread, especially with something equivalent to a backyard forge. Moreover, I haven't seen any screwed on pommel, that actually stays in place, even without hitting a target. I can only think of two ways that a pommel could have been thrown back then:
1) a sword broke at it's weakest point, thereby the pommel flies off (most underestimate the forces involved on this part).
2) The pommel was only held in place by a pin (similar to how handles are fixed on a Katana)
I own 2 Albions. I have a Squire Line 13th Century Knightly Sword (which has been sharpened by Albion, they did a beautiful job on it too) and a Next Gen Poitiers. The Poitiers is an amazing sword, its as light as a feather, and balanced like a fishing rod; very fast. Albion makes a suberb product when you first hold an Albion sword it really is a revelation!
Sure, Albion sword are expensive. But as Peter Johnsson designed blades they are still a fraction of the cost of Peter Johnsson forged ones. And then Johnsson still "cheats" by using a power hammer and similar machines.
Albion does a good job of putting out there a product that is as close as possible to recreating the original product without the calamitous expense of recreating the original process.
Hand made from a forge has a more mystic allure and sort of a magic to it. Though the fact is, these swords are stronger and more precise then hand made. Besides, you will pay thousands more for handmade from a ingot because of the labor involved.
Actually , Next Generation line Albions are at least 800 US Dollars and Museum Line swords reach around 3000 .
Could you imagine the waiting list and time frame if they still hand forged their swords. Theirs not enough quality sword manufactures today and the ones that we have are barely able to keep up with the demand for their products.
absolutely flat wrong here boss. Albion swords are WEAKER than ones that I make myself, and it has to do with the steel quality they chose.
Been reading a lot of comments, which are close to the truth about their quality and why you should buy one. I own one, so I'll share my personal opinion. I'm no expert but I can speak from experience. What you are paying for when you purchase an Albion Sword is: 1) Consistency, 2) Historical Accuracy, 3) Reputation, and 4) price.
First, consistency. Are these the 'best' swords that you can buy? No. A master blacksmith could probably forge you a better sword using a slightly superior steel, yet two swords will not have the consistency that a CNC Machined Sword will. That is what differentiates Albion from the competition. My Albion Steward will be practically identical to another Steward. I have experienced many $500 Chinese Hand and a Half Sword where one is amazing, then another (of the exact same sword) is absolutely terrible.
Second, historical accuracy. Albion makes museum line swords which are obviously based on real, medieval swords that we have today. Their New Generation swords are based off of what a soldier/night/legionnaire would have had in the old days based on written accounts/archaeological finds. When buying an Albion, you know you are getting as close to the weapons used by our ancestors centuries ago.
Third, reputation. Albion is a brand name and for good reason. If something is wrong with your blade, they will fix it. They are clear and open about their manufacturing process. This combined with the above two reasons make it a comfortable purchase knowing you are supporting a family business, getting a consistent product...but most importantly a product that would have impressed and earned the respect of those whose lives were dependent on these weapons centuries ago.
Finally, price. Are these expensive? Yes. But what is the next step in quality? Probably having a blacksmith forge you a sword. Let's just assume for comparison that your handmade forged sword is better quality (better steel, no air pockets, nicer pommel and handguard, etc). How much will that cost? There will be hours of labor in grinding, polishing (sanding, sanding, and more sanding with a lot of added filing), fitting the parts together, etc. This is not slave labor, it's made by an expert. It won't be cheap. My friend is a blacksmith, he estimates a handmade sword would range between $4000 and $7000 depending on complexity. So how does Albion play into this? It is the final step before jumping to these extremely expensive swords....swords the average man cannot afford. It truly is the best sword for the money.
I hope this helps some of you in your decision wether or not to purchase one. Let me know if you have questions and I'll try to answer from my experience.
Just wanted to thank you for this informative comment.
I placed an order for an Albion Mercenary a few days ago, now begins the 11 month wait for it, not including the scabbard that it needs.
Years ago, I used to wonder why Albion swords were so expensive, why wouldn't I just buy a $300 - $400 sword from Hanwei or Windlass? Well, the simple reason is that Albion cannot (and should not) compete on the low end because quality costs more. There is a strong market for high quality replicas (entirely made in the USA, always a bonus) and Albion fills that need, and the swords simply have to be more expensive to pay for everything and still turn a profit.
Obviously Hanwei and Windlass and all the other manufacturers out there can make a sword for less, but that's because they pay their workers much less to begin with and there is probably a high turnover rate so the skills and experience vary widely and you get inconsistent quality. The blades may also not be historically accurate in shape, weight, and may feel off when they are actually used. Maybe the hilts will start to loosen over time, the heat treat is spotty, etc.
Also, Albion swords have an intrinsic value that the mass manufactured stuff don't have - at least, to me. I wouldn't think twice of selling a Hanwei Scottish baskethilt sword, or disposing of a Cold Steel shamshir, or whatever. They're cheap, disposable swords that are cool to have, but are not special to me. I can pick one up in an instant at KoA and smash it on tree trunks without caring that much. That's their purpose, they're collectible in a sense, but also disposable due to their relatively low cost.
Albion swords not only have high quality / fit / finish / historical accuracy / dynamics, their supply is limited by demand. There's the 11 month wait, and only 500 of the sword model will be made world wide. The Mercenary will one day go out of stock forever, and you may find a replacement model that's basically the same blade but different hilt and pommel and grip, different COG and weight, but it won't be a Mercenary. Frankly, I find it amazing that Albion is able to offer these many different models of swords that have enough differences to make them viable as standalone models while retaining historical accuracy.
@@gns942 I was gunna comment here but you´ve summed up pretty much everything i was gunna say.
I SMITE THEE, foul metal barrel!
"This softens the peen."
LOL!!!!
I've got three Albions (two sharps and one blunt sparring sword). They're simply amazing weapons. :)
The spear was the primary weapon. Swords were handguns
Not even. The sword was high-class. An axe, a dagger, or a hammer was the handgun.
More like the submachine gun, rather than the handgun. Definitely not a main weapon except in certain contexts, but definitely not a slouch.
Sword Is the automatic mashine gun, the spear Is a sniper rifle, And a dagger Is a handgun.
the Guy with the hair, at the grinding wheel. Joe Waites. he was on Forged in Fire. S1, Ep1. He was the 1st to be eliminated. heated his blade too hot and broke the tip, and had multiple cracks along the blade.
FiF is an AWFUL metric for a craftsman's skill. Artificial drama factors like extra-short deadlines rush the work that SHOULD NOT be rushed, so what you see is about the best work the person could do under those circumstances, but FAR from their actual best work.
@@darklordofsword Very good points.
Also apart from cutting the initial sword 'blank' by CNC machine the rest of the manufacturing is done by hand. They are also a limited edition product, some of the lines are sold out. I can understand that some people want a unique hand made product and thats fine. But what you get from Albion is a very accurate repro, designed with great reference to originals; a quality product at a reasonable price. In fact they are probably better than a lot of, if not most custom makers out there today.
I, for one, would enjoy wielding such a sword no less than a hand-crafted one. Old European martial arts are very practical, and a sword made like that emphasizes that, that's how I look at it.
Then, a lot of work went into creating this blade. Not only the method of quenching is quite tricky (mess up the angle for 10-15 degrees while cooling and your blade is ruined), but the reproduction of these blades from museum originals, made by Peter Johnsson (a master bladesmith by the way) is huge.
Yeah! I was number 1000 to vote "like". Do I get an Albion now? I will have the Talhoffer with halfwire oxblood grip please!
Sure you can!
All you need is an additional $1100 and you're ready to go!!
HEAR MEROAR Feels like only reason they are expensive is because they are made in Europe...
VikingFromHalland Nope, the company started in washington d.c, and they are based in Wisconsin now. And they are expensive because they are excellent swords, 6150 steel is the best you can get for a sword. I bought the viking hersir a long time ago and it is awesome! :D You get what you pay for, yep.
I was just wondering, what do you think about the albion Earl or Crecy? The Crecy is cheaper, but is the Earl notably better?
HEAR MEROAR their crecy is an earlier bulkier type longsword. More suitable for heavy two handed blows. A true warsword. The earl is a later type. It is more versatile and a true cut and thrust longsword made for fencing as it is pictured in the manuscripts. Personally I think the Earl is one of the best and most beautiful swords Albion has to offer. In terms of quality however, the Crecy is just as good.
1000$ for a machine made sword......before I see this video I was thinking that albion made the sword with hand, all the people say that
me too. seriously, it's a big deception. i was planning to buy one but now, im not sure.
docbaduck me too I buy paul binn hand made sword (cheaper) than albion sword .....albion swords are beautiful but overpriced expecially because the fuller is machine made
docbaduck me too I buy paul binn hand made sword (cheaper) than albion sword .....albion swords are beautiful but overpriced expecially because the fuller is machine made
Stefano Tavelli Unlike many sword makers Albion goes out and does the research on antique swords from the middle ages. They also use a steel that is really high quality. Sure it's machined but it allows for consistency, the whole purpose of forging was not only to shape the blade but to redistribute impurities in the steel so it wouldn't affect the integrity of the blade as much. Since we can make steel that is very precise and pure now, forging isn't as necessary. Hardening and tempering is what gives the blade it's integrity, durability, and flexibility.
Make other sword makers don't make high quality or accurate products either. An average longsword weighs about 2-3 pounds and Albion is aware of that and their products have very close if not identical characteristics to the originals. Distal taper, fuller, pommel fill, all factor in for the weight and balance of the piece. Many other makers just don't get that.
Sigvulcanas I know it but all this thing in my personal opinion don't make albion swords better than other cheaper sword.Can you tell me what is the high quality steel that albion use and why is better then other steel...
The way Albion attaches the pommel and guard are also the same as most period swords; that is they 'hot peen' and wedge the guard in place before attaching the grip. This means the pommel and guard are attached to the tang and not compression fitted (ie relying on the pommel to hold everything together). They won't come loose after a week of use. Most other makers use combinations of screwed pommels and or epoxy or 'cold peened' construction. All those types of constructions aren't as strong.
The Japanese and the Vikings, who pioneered this technique, were using charcoal, to the best of my understanding. I use coal myself, and in a properly built fire, any sulphur gets burned off long before it starts to combust, you wet it down first.
To the contrary, now that we have the technology available to us, they have done some very interesting studies of these metals at the molecular level, and its very impressive. I'd recommend you look into some of them, its really interesting stuff.
Sorry, but most you people have no idea what you are talking about. :-D
Joe M Let me guess...YOU, of all people, do, though? Yeah...
He's a bladesmith so yes.
He’s a blacksmith, so yes. Also, anyone who does ten minutes of research can see why Albion swords are superior.
$800 for a machine made sword blade? BAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! "Hand forging is a waste of time with modern day steels" No, you're not understanding. If I'm going to pay an arm and a leg, I'm going to want it made by hand. "Machining eliminates small differences from blade to blade" Good for machined blades. I want a hand made, unique blade that's accurate to the real ones.And for $800 those sons of bitches better stitch the leather onto the grip! And no scabbard!?!?!?!?!?
+120masterpiece no scabbard, is a real shock for me too
***** Congrats, you became the kind of person I was mocking. Don't get butt hurt bud. I'm just saying if I'm going to spend an arm and a leg on a sword, I want a sword that was crafted just like the old days, meaning a hand forged blade, not a machined blade. A hand stitched leather wrapped grip, not a glued grip. Hand polished hilt and pommel, not a CNC machined hilt or pommel. I'm don't wanted a precision made, 100% perfect sword, because no sword made back in the 12th century was 100% perfect but that's not the point of your argument, is it bud?
You see, people like you are a special breed and I'll be honest, I've been waiting for you. There's tons of people like you. You're not the only one, but unfortunately, today, you are the one I make my point with. You think because a sword cost $1,000.00 you are holier than everyone else. I could jump into a time machine, go back to the 12th century, get a freshly made Crusader sword straight from the greatest swordsmith of the time, bring it back in pristine condition and lay it down next to your Albion sword, and you'd still beat your chest like an ape foaming at the mouth about how Holier Albion swords are because your sword cost $1,000.00, even if I say again I want a sword that was made just like they did back in the 12th century. In fact, you remind me of this old bitch I met at a car service shop when I was getting my car checked on. She asked me what car I had and I told her I drive a modest car. She then stuck her nose up at me and proclaim she drove a Cadillac Escalade. Just because you can afford to throw $1,000.00 at a machined sword doesn't make the sword worth more than a historically accurate recreated sword, it just means you're fucking stupid enough to buy a $1,000.00 machined sword. Any person with an ounce of common fucking sense would not believe a machined blade cost more than an individual hand forged blade of similar quality. Of course, you could grasp at the futile argument other sword manufactures use belt sanders to form some of the pieces despite the fact they hand similar devices back in the medieval day but lets be honest, shall we? You're just a fucking sword snob.
+120masterpiece ,Xray's, Modern metallurgy, Rockwell hardness test matched with computer laser guided CnC machines equals superior swords. Hand forged swords break easier (not easy, unless its utter shit) no matter how skilled the smith is his sword will have impurities in the blade, the steel blanks Albion uses are 99.9% impurity free, no blacksmith in history or today can say that(and that's not even getting into the exact science Albion uses for heat treatment vs the traditional way of judging by eye and sound) . Many that buy Albions don't just hang them on the wall, we use them actively in sword feats, test cutting live edge sword drilling exe very few who buy forged swords use them for such feats, why you may ask? A hand forged sword to the standards of an Albion cost a hell of a lot more, they have a much higher chance of failing and as far as I know their is no hand forged sword that comes with a life time warranty (if you know of one please tell me I would like to look into it) , Albions are cheaper, stronger and have that sweet life time warranty. epoxy leather wraps with linen partial is unbelievably sturdy, a hand sewed wrap is often times a sign of a cheaply made weapon. you can pay many thousands of dollars for a hand forged sword ( usually power hammers and modern grinders are used still) and then come to find out that the fittings are made out of bronze. I love hand forged weapons but they will never be as solid as Albions machined swords. This is the opinion of a a blacksmith and HEMA practitioner, its not meant to be an insult to you or yours, cheers friend.
***** Yes you are correct. I sold a Katana to a guy who looked like he was 65 last week at a gun and knife show, he tried to tell me that since it was a hand forged Katana made out of Damascus steel (made in Pakistan) that it could slice through 3 brass door nobs! As I was making a sale I just smiled and said I don't know about that but theirs only one way to find out, I ended up with 500 more bucks, he will end up with a warped blade (sad) . Their is no convening some folks.
robert paulson Holy shit guy, I just explained. It's not hard to understand. You're the guy I'm making fun of in my comments.
I dont know much about swords, but these products are things of beauty.
Yes, having two edges and a straight blade, not only made thrusting more effective, but also made for good "back" edge cutting, making two edged swords, far more versatile.
Except for the katana, and later military sabres, armies generally always used straight two edged swords, for that reason (although curved blades were sometimes used for cavalry)
As to other single edge swords, one of my favourites is the Großes Messer. Partially due to it's name. (it's German for "big knife")
To be fair, I'm not an expert on the subject, although I have studied the subject to a certain extent. Here's an analogy: imagine the original rectangle as a piece of wood with the grains running the length of the piece. Cut it, you cut the grains in place. Imagine instead squeezing the wood like you would playdough, and the grain lines bend in places, and compress together in others. The end result is stronger.
Another point is that because someone may see beauty in a sword does not mean that it was made with the intention of being a work of art. Its true that in the dark ages swords were prized and expensive items, but as superior steel production techniques were discovered, swords became increasingly common place. By the 10thC most soldiers had one and by the 14thC a servicable blade could be aquired for a few pence. Even in Japan sword production was on a large scale, especially in the 16thC.
And worth every penny. I have two Albion sharps and one blunt "Liechtenauer" trainer. They are truly excellent swords.
There are a few battle-ready manufacturers who make durable carbon-steel swords designed for full-force stage combat (i.e., blunted tips and no edges). I recommend Starfire Swords, which carry a warranty. They're not cheap by any means, but they are less expensive than the prices for Albion swords cited here. All of their swords are forged in Spencer, NY by a master blacksmith (Zak) and just a few assistants.
Sword is just a tool for a warrior. There is no soul in a metal stick, it can be adored as an object, but don't go overboard. Respect the martial artist and the smith (a LOT of work went in recreating the geometrical design of this blade, the way it's forged is just simplified for production, not only making it easier for the manufactured but actually making it available for customers, price-wise).
"I mean this just looks too perfect. it's not an exact replica because i doubt blacksmiths were so perfect with that.."
you are exactly right!... :)
If you start with good high carbon steel, forging becomes simply a shaping process. Its the heat treatment and quenching that will make or (pardon the pun) break the sword.
The process of folding was abandoned long before modern times, since even old blasting furnaces were able to produce steel with already evened out chemical components.
Combining hard and soft materials was pretty much forgotten too, since it was needed to combine the hard edge with flexibility and strength, with better steel and the method of tempering introduced. swords could be made both hard and flexible, without having to combine different materials.
Albion are well known for the high quality of their hilts.
A good blade is relatively easy to make, but most flaws amongst other manufacturers, is in the hilt. I don't remember ever hearing anyone (mostly fellow students of medieval swordsmanship), say _anything_ negative about Albion's hilts.
From my understanding, pattern welding was, to an extent, used because of the inferior materials they had available to them, but not to eliminate impurities. By welding high carbon and low carbon steel together to form that many layers, the result was more flexible and resilient than a pure high carbon blade would be and harder and sharper than a pure low carbon blade would be. And, of course, I'm sure it also had to do with aesthetics.
0:48
Bladesmith, rather.
That model, 'The Knight' costs about $800; pretty expensive but Albion swords are just about the finest production European swords you can buy. In fact they are probably better than custom hand made pieces from many makers.
I think another important point to make is that only part of the manufacture of this sword is actually accomplished by a machine. The blades edge profile, polish temper, hilt, etc are all finished by hand, by a skilled craftsman. Although the same sword can be made over and over they all have slight differences.
Also there are historical examples of swords which have been made by the same maker and look almost identical. I can think of at least 3 instances off the top of my head.
"In fact, the technique you are describing was only common in middle and northern europe during the late pre and post roman iron age, and was effectively ceased by around 900 AD"
I forgot to comment on this:
It was also used in e.g. China and Japan.
The exact execution differed, but it's the same process, the same purpose, and the same result.
European pattern welding and Japanese folding are pretty much the same thing.
Welding different steel was only done before high quality steels came in. Back then it was either hard and brittle or resilient and soft. Now it's both.
In Europe, they were bade from solid blocks of metal, the reason being the invention of th blast furnace which helps produce high quality steel. Katanas were not made out of thin sheets... they were made of a single block that was folded back on itself about 10 times or so to create layers and remove impurities from the Japanese steel. This was needed since Japan had poorer quality ore than Europe. In earlier times, European smiths used pattern welding to get the same kind of effect.
Albion swords from the Next Generation and Museum Lines (the vast majority of the swords they make) are all limited editions usually ranging from 1,000 to as few as 100 of each. Some lines are sold out. So Albion Swords are pretty scarce in an age of mass production.
Fullers should be forged into the blade because it makes the metal more dense at that point. When you grind away metal it also affects the heat treatment.
These are made by Wisconsin based company Albion. Est. cost $700 up to $1000. Have a look at their web-site for more detailed info.
Albion are considered one best reproduction cutlers in the business.
I don't think the core point was about the performance, the point was about the pride in craftsmanship. Here's an example: I bought a cabinet hand-made by a master woodworker who put in a lot of his time making it. Is it functionally any different than something I could buy off the shelf far cheaper? No. Is the cabinet I buy off the shelf somehow inadequate or bad? No. But I appreciate it more because I know how it was made, and that it is unique. Different strokes for different folks.
For a factory-made sword, this seems both authentic and reasonably priced. It cannot match what can be constructed by a true swordsmith, though, nor is it intended to be, it is what it is.
A true swordsmith compresses the grain size as he forms the edge, making it harder, rather than simply cutting those grains off as you would a piece of wood. He forge welds and folds different alloys of steel to make it both hard and resilient. He takes much more care in heat treating than is shown here.
Forging is a shaping process, it doesn't have an appreciable effect on hardness and flexibiltiy. The two factors that do are the quality of steel and how well it has been heat treated.
Heating the steel to high temps transforms brittle micro structures such as martensite into more flexible, softer crystal structures. Quenching the steel rapidly cools the outside leaving more of the harder structures intact , while the inside, taking longer to cool will be softer and more flexible.
Regardless, steel was fairly material for all but the cheapest of swords.
It is important to note that there was no actual mixing involved, as in medieval times they could not melt the iron. They carburized it by adding carbon to blooms which carbon reacted with the oxygen in the air which super-heated the carbon molecules and effectively forced them into the iron matrix.
The other way was to start with iron that had TOO MUCH carbon in it and pound it out until they had the proper proportions.
I agree that it was initially done because of the type of material they had available to them, but it remains the best technique. That tradeoff still exists, even with high quality steel. Martensite is what makes it hard, and martensite is brittle, there's no way around that. If you want hard and you also want resilient, you need a blend of different kinds of steel, there's just no way of avoiding that.
you know shit got real when salt melts.
I can understand the point the author was making, although your point is also valid. The answer, I think, is price. The most cost efficient way to do it is this way, giving you a high quality sword for a very reasonable price. But there is nevertheless another market at a much higher price point for a handcrafted sword made the traditional way which, imho, yields a better result with a greater sense of art and craftsmanship.
(Caveat: I'm not an expert, this is just an amateur's opinion)
I would certainly agree that in general high quality carbon steel reduced the need for pattern welding, other than for aesthetics, but in swords I would still assert that it remains the best approach. A sword needs a very flexible spine and needs a razor sharp, and hard, edge. You can't achieve this optimally with a single kind of steel. You can get a very good result, but not an optimal result.
My god.
that sword was sharp enough to slice paper to shreds.
no office is safe.
Albion wedge and HOT PEEN their hilts, that kind of hilt construction is historically authentic and won't loosen. Almost every other maker, including most custom makers will COLD PEEN and compression fit their hilts. A compression fitted hilt will often loosen due to the wood grip shrinking and/or the peen weakening because too much stress is put on it. Albion hilts avoid this because all of the parts are supporting themselves not relying on the pommel peen to keep them together
mrbeast85
I have also been a modern competition fencer for over 22 years, and used full wieght weaponry for almost as long. I have handled many makes of swords from the cheap eastern ones to Albion swords, and they aren`t that much better than the eastern ones. When my students reach an acceptable skill level, I let them use one of my hand made swords so that they can get use to handling the different feel of properly made weapons.
pretty cool to see how Albion makes their swords
It's a Canadian show and narrator. Also, these swords are highly sought-after in the sword collecting and Western martial arts community for quality. Each of their designs are based off of actual museum pieces, and made from modern alloys. The fact that they are not hammered out makes no difference in their ability to cut or their durability.
also.. there is close to no stress in the steel as a result of milling out the blade since its cooled troughout the whole process, any eventual stress would come from the preforged steel plade the blade is cut from.
Its interesting to note that the 'lower end' makers (Hanwei, Cold Steel, Valiant Armoury, Gen 2, Windlass etc) don't use CNC machines. They have their blades forged by hand in China or India. Those companies manufacture in bulk and sell for less than half the price of Ablion (sometimes even below $200/£130).
That would seem strange given that its so cheap to use a CNC machine?
No, Albion produce a medieval sword called 'The Poitiers'. Its named after the Battle of Poitiers (1356) fought in the Hundred Years War, Poitiers itself is a town in Western central France. The sword is in the style of an arming sword that would have appeared during the 14th Century. Most of the Swords from Albion are named after battles or famous Medieval characters etc. Albion doesn't currently produce any rapiers, though they no doubt have plans to do so in the future.
"and some machine made are better then handmade and visa versa"
Quite true
agreed. A truely wellbuilt sword is made from layered steel. not cut out of a larger chunk. I garantee that if you hit anything with this sword. that it would just bend and snap.
The typical way a sword was made in the middle ages was in a large factory, run by a guild, with a division of labor (although one would advance as their skills improved) and, they used machines, powered by water wheels to forge, removal metal and, to sharpen the blades. The blades were forged, but they used technology too!
Swordsmithing wasn't some mystical, magical endeavor.
I agree completely. For the price point, the methods used are very commendable and from my limited knowledge, the results have an excellent reputation. I'm simply saying that cutting, rather than compressing, the grain must necessarily lead to ever so slightly inferior results, despite the care taken in the rest of the process.
Your comment about eliminating scale is peculiar though. Heat treating comes after, not before, forging.
@branch42 keep in mind that norse blades were made of iron not steel. they're blades would be heavier and more prone to weathering from environmental exposure.
@branch42 The fuller has less steel because it has less stress, and the reduced weight makes the sword livelier. At the very centerline the bending stress goes to zero, and in theory you could have just enough thickness to take shear.
Period swords actually were mass produced to an extent. The romantic image of the lone swordsmith slaving over his anvil is a bit of a myth. Sword blades would have been made in large numbers at places such as Solingen, Passau or Toledo and then exported to local cutlers for hilting in whatever style. There are instances of almost identical swords being found, for example a cache of 80 swords discovered in the river Dordogne had many that were obviously made by the same workshop.
Phrased that way, it makes sense, the machining is the process that removes the possibility of scale getting hammered into it. Bladesmiths worth their salt obviously wouldn't do this, but the machining process does eliminate the possibility completed, agreed.
And believe you me, they're not cheap. I own a couple of them. Some of the world's foremost practicioners of swordsmanship consider Albion swords among their favourite blades. I have two Albion sharps and a blunt trainer, and they're top notch.
This is going on my list of 'stuff to make before i die'.
@morrowray1 forging is a process of heating and quenching the blade to a shape and then using tools to edge the steel. thats what the video says. if you look he's heating the blade "by hand" and quenching it "by hand" than using a grinder to sharpen it "by hand" the only machine process is the "blank" cut from a steel plate
Forging has no bearing at all on the heat treatement of a blade. Forging removes impurites, evens carbon and shapes or 'draws' out the blade. If you start with a good piece of steel with even carbon and desired levels of impurites forging is merely a shaping process and can be dispensed with, grinding is perfectly acceptable as a substitute. A blade is only heat treated after forging/shaping and the basic form has been ground into it, prior to final sharpening and polising.
Somewhere, Hitori Hanzo is weeping softly...
1. Folding and hammering was only used to ensure a equal level of carbon and thus quality throughout the blade.
2. They fricking used this very technique when the steelforging got better but instead of cutting with a CNC they grinded it.
3. I understand that you want your katana folded for a proper Hamon but really, if they folded the steel used in this video they only weakened it.
Hand-made is for sentimental value only.
Exactly right Zarlan! Albion may not use historically authentic techniques (though they are closer than you might think), but what they are doing is using modern technology to allow them to reproduce, almost exactly, the same sword again and again. The end product is the same as the medieval equivalent in all important respects. Also they are reproducing a prototype designed by noted scholar and swordsmith Peter Johnsson, in effect you are getting a clone of a sword he has forged by hand.
A professional swordsmith.
yes it is iron is a mineral the metal that our saying is steel which is a refined iron through a heating and mixing process
and also the grinding wheels that you talked about was used to make mass produced swords the one that they are making in this video as you can see uses craftmanship but not of the blacksmith but of the machine
the katana was made to be a razorblade sharp edge. however swords like the claymore here where carried by knights.
in japan is was a matter of order, in europe it was about war and armour.
True on all counts. I was just pointing out that you don't have to spend thousands on a hand forged sword by a master blade smith to get something of quality, worth owning. Albion's squire line is a good example.
@Ranziel1 Actually, a forged sword is FAR stronger than a "stock removal" sword. When a stock removal sword is made, the grains of the steel are cut, weakening the crystal structure of the steel. In a forged sword, the grains are bent which maintains the integrity of the crystaline structure.
@MrQualia : That's because European swords were made out of superior iron ore, and didn't HAVE to have as muchwork put into them to make them. No need to fold the steel or pattern weld, not necessarry.
how to make a sword
step 1:sharpen the ends of a toy sword
step 2:have fun with your sword
Functionality, durability and flexibility, are all areas in which Albion swords are praised for their excellent quality. (well there are some makers, that have greater durability ...at the expense of other features)
When a blade is forged that is the process of shaping the blade. As blades were traditionally made, they were hammer forged by a smithy. A blade made my stock removal isn't really "forged" at all because it is made from premanufactured steel sheets. A hammer forged blade will always be inherently cared for much more closely than a blade made by machines, because of the long man hours dedicated to each blade. The prices of Albion swords reflect hammer-forged blades, but simply are not. continued.
mrbeast85
All without fail either, sell them ( including Albion swords), or wall hang them for display only, as that`s all they are good for. My personal preferance are for weapons made by Tim Noyes of Heron Armoury, he makes reasonably priced sparring swords, which mine have lasted for years, and taken quite a pounding. Right up to beatifull fully edged pattern welded swords with gold or silver inlay. It depends on how much you want to spend.
Albion makes good swords. But, a ground fuller is in all ways inferior to a forged fuller. The forged fuller changes the grain structure of the blade. This makes it more flexible in the directions that it needs to be, and stronger in the others. It also conserves steel, milling out the fuller does little if any of these.
If you visited a medieval 'sword shop' you probably had to visit a number of places, rarely was the final blade the product of one persons labor. It was more like a production line. Simple blades aside, think of the suit's of armor and the technology that was needed to field whole armies of well equpied soldiers, hell, it's pretty much the earliest example of a modern industry.
Albion also makes false edged stuff for $400-$550 order online. There are also blade blaks. For people who want to make their own hilt. They cost $140 u.s
A lot of scientific work was put into this one, Peter Johnson is a master blade smith that has put a lot of research into his blades that resemble originals as close as possible. The making process is here to reduce the price and make the blade geometry perfect. They are making swords for modern practitioners of the art, swords that work and perform like the originals... so why not take the most efficient way to do that?
If there is one criticism I have with regards to Albion swords, it is that they look too perfect. In any event, quality is top notch and my Albion has the status as a family heirloom, along with the guns.
That's the difficulty of holding a conversation one 500 character paragraph at a time, hours apart, unfortunately, at least for me, sometimes I lose track of the thread.
The basic point I was trying to get at was that while you need a hard/sharp edge and a soft/springy center. You could achieve this with a complex heat treating process (quenching the edges differently than the core), but it would be made easier with different types of steel.
"it was an exmple for a cold steel triple action folder"
Yes, but it was an example, to illustrate a point about "machine made" vs hand forged swords, so my point still stands.
But even if I were to grant that the difference is still minuscule, and the engraving can be added later, anyway.
Ah, Albion. Great manufacturer. I own a couple of Next Gen's and a Liechtenauer, and have handled a bunch of their other models. They're simply amazing. The handling is unreal. Worth every penny.
"Sounds to me like a biased oppinion based on want rather than fact."
That's what I'd say about your opinions.
I have looked this stuff up.
Pattern welding (which the folding is a type of), was used in europe since about 300 BC, until about 1000, when it had been largely abandoned due to proper steel, from blast furnaces. With such steel, pattern welding would only serve to weaken the steel.
Pattern welding is, and was, often done for decorative purposes, but historically, back before the blast furnace, it also helped to make the metal more homogenized and remove impurities from it.
This is only true for metals of poor quality, as pattern welding good quality steel would only add weak points
For a start William Wallace and his men were not a gang of wild kilt wearing highlanders as depicted in the movies. They were dressed and armed pretty much as any other northern Europeans would be. Wallace, Douglas and the other in his band were armed and trained as Late 13th/Early 14th Century knights. His men were mostly spear armed and fought in close formations known a Schiltrons; a block of spearmen; to carry out such tactics on the battlefield they must have been trained and drilled.
...Albion swords are made with great reference to originals in museum collections which is what makes them better than most other repros. I'd say they are just as effective as the originals, though how you'd test this I'm not sure.
Actually using a belt grinder will not ruin the temper of the sword if its used correctly. If you notice only relatively swift passes are made, it won't generate enough heat to noticably alter the temper if its done this way.