Perfect. Wish Valve would stop being weird and just get a dev team for this game. It's was born too early and hasn't reached it's peak yet. The world is a very different place since the game first came out.
more classes would be playable in traditional 6s if 5cp wasn't the only game mode. i would love to see unrestricted 6s with more payload and koth, as that would allow people to experiment more with different classes and reform the meta
5CP isn't the only gamemode but I know what you mean. There are currently 3 KOTH maps in the rotation, and only 2 are played per season. I personally wouldn't want to see the *amount* of koth maps per season to increase from 2 (as I prefer the strategy of 5CP over the mostly raw DM of Koth depending on the map), but I would like to see the amount of viable Koth maps to increase. Right now we have: Product, which most people know since it's a modified version of Viaduct, Bagel, which is already in the game with Cauldron (and is a great map), and Clearcut, which is my favorite KOTH map in general. Payload is something that has been experimented with before, the issue is the pacing of the mode and map size. The defending team is very much encouraged to stack as many defensive classes as possible (and probably sniper given the sightlines on many Payload maps). Then besides having the dedicated cart pusher, the attacking team likely will just have to sac over and over until they get something, which is the current worst thing about 5CP, but now instead of having a chance of that situation happening, it should be guaranteed on every point unless the defending team is completely outclassed. This can be alleviated with map size reductions, but I can count the amount of Payload maps created for 6s on one hand so it's unlikely we'll get one but I do hope one gets created that's good. Other things to try could be removing the cart cap (no x3+ cap), having the cart push itself for a small amount of time, etc etc. NR6s somewhat alleviates the issues in payload as the defending team probably won't stack the most defensive classes, that way they can chase etc if needed, but the attacking team can stack offensive classes or have multiple medics if needed etc. But the gamemode just needs to be tested more in general, it's clear to me that casual audience of TF2 is more accepting of NR6s over the traditional variant, but the issue is that an important portion of the existing competitive playerbase won't take it seriously, or doesn't want to see any change, which is a shame.
@@QueeQuey Don't forget that Overwatch also has a lot of the same Gamemodes as TF2, with some similar classes. When it comes to the Comp players refusing change, it's the reason why I dog, and essentially the Entire TF2 Casual Community dogs on the gamemode and their community. It's stagnant, it's boring, no one wants to shake the meta, and it's a very gated community.
@@lamptowel Vita-Saw is on the list... despite being worse than the Ubersaw in every way. I don't think the people who make that Whitelist have updated it in years.
I highly appreciate this video. It gives me and a few friends an invaluable perspective. We've had rotten luck in comp. Nobody told us WHY so we were clueless. this video makes it clear. Thx!
There aren't many guides out there, and most of the ones that are, are well... outdated. If you look up how to play "x" class in 6s, most of the videos are pre-scout speed buff, which changed the meta significantly. It's a difficult issue since most players can't really talk about what every class can/should do. For example I can generally talk about the combo (Pocket Soldier, Medic, Pocket Scout, Demoman) since I play Pocket Soldier, but I can't really go in depth on the non-soldier classes (I'm planning on releasing a general Pocket Soldier guide within the next few uploads). Then there's map knowledge etc. The best way to learn when you get started is either from a) Joining the Newbie Mixes or b) Somehow getting a mentor almost immediately. Useful video resources on TH-cam right now are pretty much just Callout Videos, and Twitch clips from b4nny. The only other major source on TH-cam is watching the VODs on the RGL TH-cam Channel. So I don't blame new players at all for not knowing what's going on etc, the resources aren't accessible to most people. Hopefully we'll see that change as time goes on.
As a Casual player, I think the "great disconnect" between Casual and Competitive comes from TF2 being THE casual pvp game of the modern times. CSGO, Valorant, and ever Overwatch are not just *functionally* similar between a ranked pub and a tournament, but even "normal" players play those games to WIN and RANK UP. They share the same mentality with tournament participants, they're just not as good at the game. TF2 meanwhile is a game with no meta-level stakes like the ladder, where willingly inefficient play is commonplace (demoknights, trolldiers, stacked spies), and where people in general value fun over winning. Try to pick your favorite non-meta character in Dota and see how your teammates react (spoiler: badly). I think there's a self-selection process going on, where people who want to have low stakes pvp get channeled to TF2 (due to other relevant games being high stakes), which doesn't go well for the Comp.
Another problem in the comp tf2 scene is the existence of a type of cronyism, the same people seem to stay in the same divisions main and above on rgl at least in 6s and there doesn't seem to be much upward mobility even for those who have been playing at that division since ESEA open. This could be boiled down to the overall skill of the divisions goes up with them and because it's always the same people playing each other each season it's a never ending cycle. But I guess what i'm getting at is a more professionalized recruitment for invite teams and maybe the opening of academy teams to create a farm system. sort of like what they do in overwatch with the league, contenders, and open.
I agree really hard with the "no team will scrim you if you play nonmeta" comments. It hurts the scene big time, and I've seen teams go around it by doing normal scrims then doing a ton of training behind the scenes with off-class battle plans. A good example was a couple of lower leagues that had people using a pyro instead of 2 scouts or 2 soldiers, airblast totally ruining the roamer on the other team trying to kill their med and allowing the pyro to fight off their scouts because of afterburn forcing a fallback. The teams in a couple of cases like this, however, complained that the other team, who was outright destroying anyone that refused to adapt, was "throwing" all of their matches. They all wanted to be in the higher leagues so badly that they outright complained that the other team must be doing this to troll, instead of it being a tactic that was completely WORKING until they were told to avoid doing off-classing outside of the usual cases. Some teams will even refuse matches, official matches, if they don't get their way. Higher leagues have rules to stop this, lower leagues do as well, but lower leagues buckle to the "best" players, who gripe the most.
I love how this video is a mash up of two of my favorite games being tf2 and melee, really caters to my poor attention skills where I find myself flipping videos every few minutes.
It makes sense, I don't upload often and have a decent amount of "dead-subscribers". Unless the algorithm picks up the video (or really any of my uploads) for some reason, or someone large shouts me out/my videos get shared, viewcounts will continue to max out around ~200. The only thing I can do until then is keep creating!
5:21 I question how true this is. Especially to the viewers of a match. Take for example the recent matches of Pearson Specter. The viewers and commentators were excited about Antoni using the beggar's. Your point about scrims is a different case because people looking for scrims typically are looking a for a mutually beneficial arrangement. A team practicing against a nonmeta class composition or load out is not very beneficial when they are mostly going to be going up against teams running meta class compositions and load outs. I think melee has this same problem. If you are practicing for a tournament you wouldn't want to practice against a bowser, even if that browser player is cracked because that practice won't be very applicable compared to playing against a more common character.
Many of the problems of competitive tf2 are due to the insistence of the pros to put the traditional 6v6 game mode as the main, when team fortress was never created as a 6v6 everything throughout these more than 10 years was thought with all classes in mind but the stubbornness of many 6v6 people put things as they are now, TF2 can never be perfectly balanced for traditional 6v6 and even less with how it is currently and how its community is. they say that highlander shouldn't be the game mode mainly because it has problems; but 6v6 has many more and worse. I have seen 6v6 games and it is literally quake with hats, if I want to see competitive quake, I go and see it directly (I play competitive quake from time to time), I want to see competitive TF2. It's good to see people in 6v6 with a head and who know the flaws and try to improve but unfortunately most of the main members are not like that
You would be surprised! I can't speak for those outside of North America, but in RGL I've seen a lot of people advocating for a more inclusive environment and it's been really refreshing to see. When I started in competitive TF2 I had a similar mindset to you if I'm being honest, and I'm really happy that most of my negative preconceptions of competitive TF2 were squashed fairly quickly. I'm hoping we can inch closer and closer to having a better environment. Whether that's changing "traditional 6s" or running No Restriction 6s, which is just Valve competitive which we've run in the past a few times (one recently with the Chucklenuts).
There is nobody who hold the community together because Its required for any development to be made. So problem honestly boils down to Passionate people with the right skillset. You can't ask a competitor like b4nny to do PR, Community building AND Networking to make changes. And even after that condition is done somebody has to make up the new ideas and experiment which is VERY time consuming.
I understand! My last season in IM I lost sleep every night of the week due to 6s, probably not the best life decision but I had a lot of fun and it was a good experience.
A lot of casual tf2 fans (and some people in the comments) seem to think that introducing attack/defend or payload into the sixes map rotation would be a good way to shake up the meta but I think it's a horrible idea. Even if the maps were designed around having 12 players instead of 24 it would be a never-ending slogfest and completely destroy the (usually) fast-paced and fluid nature of sixes. Overwatch is a great example. With the amazing addition of ultimate abilities they managed to make the already slow gamemode even more horrible, and attack/defend was so bad they had to remove it. I mean, Overwatch is a nightmare when it comes to competitive game design, but the gamemodes aren't exactly helping. Payload is, in my opinion, a gamemode which is great for casual, and where it should stay. With that said I don't think valve competitive is good either, especially in it's current state. I think that the whitelist and class limits are good for sixes, if nothing else preventing people from running two medics, which isn't fun for anyone, and I don't think there's any sort of balance that could prevent that without destroying the medic entirely. I think the main thing stopping more offclassing is that it's untreaded ground and people don't like when you do it as you stated in the video. I think you've proven running an offclass full time is (at least below invite) definitely possible, and I think your video about running an engie full time will inspire people to try more wacky shit, which I think will be good for the scene. Spy is the only offclass that I think isn't viable to run full time, and I don't see how you could buff him to make him both fair in a casual setting and reasonable to run a good chunk of the time. I don't really have a problem with it though since it makes spy plays more hype. Anyways, I'm just rambling atp. Great video, keep doing what you do. EDIT: pls rgl unban disciplinary action
Good comment! The only thing I'd like to add about A/D or Payload is that both gamemodes haven't had a map specifically designed for 6s yet. There technically was Scourge for a while, but that's a Highlander map now to my understanding. When I was testing for cups I ran Cactus Canyon and that unironically played really well. Overall I think that just getting a well designed map, or gamemode changes could help a lot with integration. Ex for Payload I'd like to see how it would be if the cart cap limit was removed for competitive TF2. And I understand your sentiment about class stacking but the only issue that I've personally seen in NA with that for NR6s is when 1 medic uses the vaccinator, and another uses something else. But that's just more of a testament as to how good the vaccinator is (as well as certain other unlocks like the wrangler). I don't think balancing for those weapons is impossible, and I know how big of an ask it is to get them to rebalanced, but it could happen some day if enough people at Valve pick TF2 as their pet project for a while.
I used to play competitive Smash (Also Project M, I'm a Lucas main!) and later Splatoon for years, and I'm planning on entering comp TF2 with 6s. This video described EXACTLY all my problems with comp TF2 though. The weird gap/hate between comp and casual, the iron mindset of only playing one specific meta, certain items being banned to seemingly protect that one specific meta, this strange fight between highlander and 6s. It feels as though the comp TF2 scene is making things way harder for themselves than it needs to be just to protect their tiny bubble. On the other hand, I was heartbroken when PM got its treatment, and I think its biggest flaw was depending on and trying to please the Melee community a little too much rather than doing its own thing. Personally, I want to see more effort being put into making comp TF2 more available for casuals, without restrictions like "We don't tolerate offclassing in newbie mixes so that it's being made sure your experience with comp will root within this one meta". Let the people learn in their own way, please! Let them form their own conclusions. Make low level comp more casually approachable so that casual players can LEARN to APPRECIATE and be HYPED for high lvl comp TF2. idk just my 2 cents
I think you hit the nail on the head here for casual sentiment to competitive TF2. Personally I'm working (and hoping) we can lower the barriers to entry as much as possible and encourage a wide array of playstyles, that way just about everyone who wants to take their gameplay to the next level can.
There are reasons why certain classes are not played in 6s, this is due to 5cp maps. On a map like process it takes a year for the heavy to get to mid, when soldiers scouts and demos can get there in as little as 15 second. The classes are picked because they are the fastest and best, I'm sure if you replaced arrek on old froyo with a pyro or engi main, froyo would never had been as dominate as they were. This is because the engi/pyro bottlenecks them. Of course you can try whatever, but the reason you will get c alled for throwing is because you pretty much are. Now if you do wanna play classes such as pyro etc go see HL its just as much fun as 6s.
@@croudxd Pyro in HL is NOT nearly as fun as 6s in my experience. I don't wait to sit around and babysit the medic, and occasionally deny ubers. That's not fun. Also I see what you mean. But I would say Pyro and Heavy are far more viable in NA than they are in EU. In RGL the buffalo steak is unbanned, and the pyro has no bans besides the reserve shooter (can use Detonator and Scorch Shot). Both of these boost the viability of each of the two, especially for pyro. But yeah I would say that Heavy on rotate mids like Process and Sunshine is just going to get shredded due to early mid positioning by the other team.
@@QueeQuey even so if you run a heavy, as a roamer I'm insta going sniper because I can't do anything. I personally think we should try payload maps, but nothing like upward or anything we need some better map design which Is smaller like in overwatch. This would then create a different meta.
@@croudxd 100% agreed! Right now I think we just need maps to be created/tested for 6s. I actually did testing on Cactus Canyon for RGL and it unironically played really well, it's just that stopwatch doesn't work for multi-stage payload maps unfortunately. But I would be interested in Payload or A/D. Scourge was originally a 6s map but is now being developed for Highlander from what I've heard, could be worth looking into. One thing I'd also be interested in looking into would be if we removed the cart cap limit would payload get significantly faster due to having a higher incentive to maximize cart pushers? I'm sure strategies would ebb and flow off of that.
I have always wanted to play TF2 Comp but the problem I have always had wasn't the ban lists, wasn't the lacking maps/gamemodes, it was the simple fact that I just want to play an absolute chaotic soup of call outs and partials with a full 12v12 match and honestly, I think a lot of map or weapon balancing issues could be more balanced with a higher number of players with a high focus on what you double up on in a match. The biggest problem other than people throwing a fit is just the sheer number of people required for something like that.
You should check out "TF2 clan wars grand finals" here on youtube if you haven't seen it. It's an absolute chaos of 24 very good players in a Casual setting without any bans or class limits. It's the closest we ever got to competitive casual.
@@colatf2 Oh I know. Doesn't help that my local ones are always full and have over thirty minute wait times along with the fact that it isn't actually separated into a competitive system to differentiate between playing for fun with uncletopia and playing for glory with competitive.
I've used to play in an amateur football league and... Good luck organizing any real competitions that require two dozen adults with day jobs and shit present at specific time. Ain't happening.
Haha yeah I've been a fan of Ringler for a while. In case you haven't caught it, that new DK documentary is actually pretty sick: th-cam.com/video/Rqp4RpFXwu8/w-d-xo.html
Late to the party but why casually gloss over the fact that Valve has never sponsored TF2's comp scene. I've been around a good while. I played comp in late 2009 and a few times after between 2010 and 2017. I could be wrong but to my knowledge I don't remember Valve ever putting money towards any prize pool in any tournament. That is a HUGE reason so many left for OW when it launched was the potential to make money from playing the game they love. The community is the single reason games like smash and tf2 are still alive and kicking. I wish Valve would support the game a bit more on the comp side of things instead of treating it like the red headed step child of their games.
I think part of what makes 6’s so great is the uniformity. A game mode in which everyone is on the same playing field, and ultimately the winner is the team with better coordination, individual skill, and game plans. I think swapping a scout with a pyro just throws the even playing field on its head. Also one thing I think you didn’t mention is RGL divs. One thing I didn’t understand is why teams that didn’t place, and ended up somewhere in the middle at the end of the season decided to move up. I feel like in S5 most IM teams were not at the level of the top AM teams. Ever since then I feel a lot of people are playing in certain divs for the “status” but have created a situation in which NC - Main has players scattered around in divs, making a big gap between the bottom level teams in a div and the top level teams in a div.
Sixes are stupid. Wrangler ban and more than 2 medic ban makes sense, but the sixes ruleset has huge problems: - It overly favors mobility classes because of the long mid rollout. - Whitelist exists to enforce a meta instead of banning meta-centralizing items. Meta is incredibly centralized yet weapons like GRU are banned because they un-centralize it. - It actively disadvantages engi buildings because the fight moves around, and in koth the losing team has no reason to build dispensers to keep hold of the small area they control. - Spy is badly designed class, it will never be seriously played in comp unless you play 9v9, but then team sizes become an issue. - Sniper is badly designed class, long sightlines are instantly competitively unviable and picking him leads to slow and boring gameplay. Really, those are issues. There isn't a way to solve them in the current map pool, either. 5cp tends towards draws and with koth, overcentralize meta towards mobility. Capture the Flag is pretty good gamemode if the maps were better, because it allows all classes to be viable as even when you're down points, there is a reason to defend.
Sadly it's also extremely same-y feeling 2 scouts, 2 soldiers, demo and a medic with other classes being rarely played for longer then a minute with a load of maps not working for it either because, well, game is 12v12 oriented, not 6v6, nor is the game pushing people to win, it just leaves you at the start, there is a finish line, do whatever you want to reach it, win, loose, don't matter
i just wanted to say that this video looks a little too rose-tinted at the melee scene. leffen and armada literally advocated to ban jigglypuff when hbox was winning. hbox is probably one of the most hated players i have ever seen in a scene and was incredibly divisive when he was kicking everyone's ass. all for his playstyle, which people forever thought was "killing melee". mango, for all the good he has done for the scene, literally lead the hate against hbox for a very long time, nothing that bad to my knowledge has ever happened in tf2. there are some things to appreciate about melee's scene, but you have to realize that melee is not an idol in any respect for tf2 to look up to. just recently melee squandered its hugest opportunity to have a smash world tour and ousted one of their hugest supporters, panda, and they have endlessly done witchhunts in their communities on innocent players (h4x, westballz) because the community is so small it is susceptible to a lot of hivemind thinking. but i digress, my only point is that melee as a scene is not something "thriving". regardless of its ability to unify itself as a great competition, its community is significantly more immature and less developed than that of tf's, regardless that it is a divisively complex scene. also, the melee scene ABSOLUTELY does not glorify mid tier nor do they appreciate them. if you've actually played mid-tiers on slippi (yoshi, pikachu), you'd know the community genuinely does not like playing them. especially spacie players. the reason why you are saying people think you're griefing in a 6v6 with an off-meta pick, is because (from their perspective, mind you) you are not only wasting your team's time, but the enemy team's time as well. in comparison to melee, its a LOT easier to convince 1 other person to play your off-meta pick. in your average team games, say dota/league, there has forever been a permanent issue of picks being "troll picks" whether or not you are even good with them, and this is not an issue that we can simply put on tf2 and its community alone. its an issue that's permanent to all team games period. its like playing with only a shotgun on counter strike. if you're playing a game to win and you're doing off-meta, there is ALWAYS going to be people complaining, that's just how it is. the only solution to this issue is to make more team compositions viable, basically period. anyways i know this sounds mostly negative but i think your video is very thought provoking and i'm just trying to give my perspective. i do think your input on the halo scene was very informative and gave me things to think a bout regarding the TF2 scene and that actually does make a pretty interesting parallel. this game no doubt needs a unifying format that can be enjoyed by more people. but in terms of melee and tf2? well... the grass is always greener
I don't think a game doesn't have to change for the meta to change though. Chess' meta has changed over the last 200 years, yet the game is pretty much the same
can you summarize your points for me? the only thing I picked up from you was: comp tf2 isnt popular because it isn't smash because valve mishandled it not enough money, e.g. smash has money and does well [insert point about how tf2 isn't smash]
Not sure if you're trolling or not, but I'll respond seriously just in case you're being genuine: Many people compare TF2 with Smash, usually just because it's an old (grassroots) game that has a thriving competitive scene all these years later (which I have some experience in) hence all of my comparisons to smash. Competitive TF2 is making similar mistakes to what have been made in the games I've played competitively in the past: primarily distancing the competitive ruleset away from what's in the vanilla game using stuff like modified maps, configs, whitelists etc. The 6s scene is very negative towards non-meta runners, which is pretty bad in a game that scene wants to grow (we're being exclusive rather than inclusive). People need to stop calling for the top teams in 6s or HL etc to be broken up. Comparing to Melee, players being dominant then usurped is some of the best parts of Melee's story. Every competitive scene that I know of has 1 major format, TF2 has 2 (maybe 3 if you consider Prolander) which is an issue since it breaks up the competitive playerbase far too much. Valve chose to create NR6s for a reason, and if we want them to support us we should run it (RGL has in the past but only for 2 seasons and a recent cup). Funding can come from many sources but the attitude of a good chunk of the competitive community is that they don't want to pay for anything (for example: every level of Highlander in North America except for Invite is free, while every division after Amateur in 6s is paid) so relying solely on crowdfunding may not be good for TF2 despite it going over well in Melee. We need more content creators to talk about competitive TF2, or top competitive players to create content to get people interested in the scene.
@@QueeQuey the problem is (and sorry for late AF comment) is the simple issue of the game not being designed around just 6 players on each team, nor just a select few of gamemodes. Not to add the community isn't really that interested in taking the game seriously, it's jsut played for fun, mostly not to win, all while doing dumb stuff just because. And frankly it's fine? Comp scene does have their own side, with their own servers, even when official comp was tried people still went back to third party comp anyway, and weapon bans weren't changed after some weapons got nerfed into the ground from what I recall. While Casual part has casual servers and community servers.
the problem is this analogy falls apart entirely when you realise that the offclasses aren't actually the falcon and yoshi of the game, they're the ice climbers with wobbling, and that's why all their best weapons are restricted lol
not completely true but I see the vision. too much variability diminishes the strengths of 6s that we value competitively, which is mobility and DM. Reminds me of that one Rishi video. Also don't get me wrong, team play is important, but the sheer speed and execution of generalists will always outweigh playing off-meta. Heavy can't sac as good as soldier. Engi can't run away and build with med in disadvantage. At most, I believe specialists can function like spy and get a surprise pick or distract players with weird timings (not full time).
@@user-nm9yd4wq4s big disagree, the worst part of the game is getting stuck pushing or defending last, and the specialists cause it entirely. engineer is broken asl in equal ubers, it is 100% meta to play engi on last & this is true to such an extent you'd be considered actively trolling if you didn't play engi on at least half the 5cp maps - and thats WITHOUT any of the unlocks that make engineer good... pyro+engi on certain lasts like gully is already a big problem for even top teams I get where you're coming from with it's another variable and therefore interesting in some eyes but devalues it for others, but it's actually not, if you allow it unrestricted valve style, the meta becomes every time you push last you now have to shoot my sentry with 1000hp instead of 350, so your uber sucks now. the issue as you say is not that specialists overbear the general game, obviously these characters have limitations and its very tough to get them to work full time, but that isn't a real weakness, you just switch. the restrictions are there because the specialists are too good in specialist situations, idk who told you specialists are like surprise wildcard variables
@@FWbitxhh tl;dr my B and schizo rambling tbh We have come to a misunderstanding. You're talking about whitelists. I'm talking about the "Non-meta" section. I see what you mean about "wobbling" now. The specialists are just inherently degenerative to everything great about 6s (haha stale mates :)) and some unlocks make it worse. I get it. What I'm trying to get at is a full-time off class sucks and shouldn't be run seriously. They're success is completely based on unfamiliarity in the meta and gimmicks. Not to mention a good chunk of specialists tend to just be good tf2 players. Like you could dump b4nny on spy in Amateur and he could probably claw out a froyo first finish. At the very MOST, I can see a player switch off at an odd timing rarely as a strat. Worked for kawa and muma switching to pory in advanced. Other than that it's wasting time that could be spent improving at the 6s meta game rather than be a hard stuck engi LFT main. I can't see the fun of being a full-time engineer Amateur division gatekeeper. It's so pointless. QueeQuey's favoritism of specialists and Melee's mid tiers is wrong. He fails to recognize the countless players that fail to succeed at all. Players like to idolize the top and emulate their play. While the staleness of Fox is an eyesore for viewers, the actual players recognize the character's versatility and options; something the tf2 generalists possess to a degree. There's a reason players quit out on you in Slippi, and it's because you play lame and make the game less fun. Same logic goes for the pyro scrim hypothetical. The culture just doesn't want lame players succeeding and devolve the meta into counter class nonsense at low divisions that doesn't happen in Invite. There's reasons why items get banned and reasons teams don't do full time specialists. No Restriction 6s cups exists as a cautionary tale of sorts for this. I don't get why he wants this change beyond the thought if Valve came back after we played by their rules. I'm really in my fuck Valve era after this update.
You, just like many other newer competitive players, have a bit of a rose-tinted view of the competitive scene and Valve. Yes I know you are aware Valve doesn't actually update the game and all that, but you're missing key events. Back before the Meet your Match update, we actually got the 'holy grail' moment in competitive TF2. This was when Overwatch was announced and many of the top competitive players at the time were urging Valve to respond because otherwise they were practically forced to stop playing TF2 competitively if they wanted to make a living. On top of that, the scene felt that this was the one and only opportunity to make Valve do anything that could change the landscape we'd been stuck in for 10+ years at that point. Valve, to everyone's surprise, ended up actually responding after a bunch of top players internationally came together and sent them a letter. It was a last-ditch effort and it seemed to work. What followed was hundreds of top players, and thousands of the community coming together to playtest, review and give feedback to Valve on how to grow the scene. I've never seen a community be this focused and passionate about wanting the game to succeed competitively. Ultimately (long story short) Valve proceeded to betray the community's trust and not listen to the feedback and playtesters and instead 'ruin' the game with the atrocity that was the Meet your Match update. Releasing a broken matchmaking system, balance changes nobody asked for, on top of pitting the already adverse casual fanbase more against the competitive one than ever before. An effect that is lasting to this day. Many of the people who poured their hearts and souls into all of this nowadays either don't play the game anymore, or just play for fun. This is especially true in regions other than North America, where people no longer look to push for the 'good of the game' but would rather play and have fun challenging themselves and improving. Many of the top players of the time left the game to make a living doing other things. Quitting gaming, doing overwatch, going into streaming, casting (production) etc. The funny thing is that a lot of top players and community members who had forsaken Valve after their betrayal actually ended up going somewhere in gaming, while the people who stuck with the game and kept believing in Valve have to this day, gone nowhere. Colour me unsurprised then that I keep seeing videos with similar opinions to these in your video by newer players, either ignorant or unwilling to give up. Although I do respect the grind, as it were, I honestly don't think it will go anywhere. We will not see the competitive TF2 scene flourish unless Valve actually supports us. And the chance that this happens is so infitesimally small I don't even consider it. Alongside the other comments criticizing your view here, with some pointing out the flaws in your Smash timeline, I have to say I'm still not convinced. I'll keep playing competitively and helping out newer players and promoting inclusivity instead of toxicity. But I'm not going to delude myself into pushing for the most 'vanilla' TF2 experience in 6s. That time has long passed.
![[TF2] Soldier's most influential unlock](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Xrss3t64wrA/mqdefault.jpg)
Perfect. Wish Valve would stop being weird and just get a dev team for this game. It's was born too early and hasn't reached it's peak yet. The world is a very different place since the game first came out.
It can be argued tf2 had already met it's peak in the past, dosent mean I want the game to die but it will be great to see a renaissance
more classes would be playable in traditional 6s if 5cp wasn't the only game mode. i would love to see unrestricted 6s with more payload and koth, as that would allow people to experiment more with different classes and reform the meta
5CP isn't the only gamemode but I know what you mean. There are currently 3 KOTH maps in the rotation, and only 2 are played per season.
I personally wouldn't want to see the *amount* of koth maps per season to increase from 2 (as I prefer the strategy of 5CP over the mostly raw DM of Koth depending on the map), but I would like to see the amount of viable Koth maps to increase. Right now we have: Product, which most people know since it's a modified version of Viaduct, Bagel, which is already in the game with Cauldron (and is a great map), and Clearcut, which is my favorite KOTH map in general.
Payload is something that has been experimented with before, the issue is the pacing of the mode and map size. The defending team is very much encouraged to stack as many defensive classes as possible (and probably sniper given the sightlines on many Payload maps). Then besides having the dedicated cart pusher, the attacking team likely will just have to sac over and over until they get something, which is the current worst thing about 5CP, but now instead of having a chance of that situation happening, it should be guaranteed on every point unless the defending team is completely outclassed. This can be alleviated with map size reductions, but I can count the amount of Payload maps created for 6s on one hand so it's unlikely we'll get one but I do hope one gets created that's good. Other things to try could be removing the cart cap (no x3+ cap), having the cart push itself for a small amount of time, etc etc.
NR6s somewhat alleviates the issues in payload as the defending team probably won't stack the most defensive classes, that way they can chase etc if needed, but the attacking team can stack offensive classes or have multiple medics if needed etc. But the gamemode just needs to be tested more in general, it's clear to me that casual audience of TF2 is more accepting of NR6s over the traditional variant, but the issue is that an important portion of the existing competitive playerbase won't take it seriously, or doesn't want to see any change, which is a shame.
playing nr 6s will teach you why there is a whitelist
@@QueeQuey Don't forget that Overwatch also has a lot of the same Gamemodes as TF2, with some similar classes. When it comes to the Comp players refusing change, it's the reason why I dog, and essentially the Entire TF2 Casual Community dogs on the gamemode and their community. It's stagnant, it's boring, no one wants to shake the meta, and it's a very gated community.
@@lamptowel Vita-Saw is on the list... despite being worse than the Ubersaw in every way. I don't think the people who make that Whitelist have updated it in years.
@@Kalmaro4152 vita saw makes tracking uber very annoying and forces a mirror if you do get it off
I highly appreciate this video. It gives me and a few friends an invaluable perspective. We've had rotten luck in comp. Nobody told us WHY so we were clueless. this video makes it clear. Thx!
There aren't many guides out there, and most of the ones that are, are well... outdated. If you look up how to play "x" class in 6s, most of the videos are pre-scout speed buff, which changed the meta significantly. It's a difficult issue since most players can't really talk about what every class can/should do. For example I can generally talk about the combo (Pocket Soldier, Medic, Pocket Scout, Demoman) since I play Pocket Soldier, but I can't really go in depth on the non-soldier classes (I'm planning on releasing a general Pocket Soldier guide within the next few uploads). Then there's map knowledge etc. The best way to learn when you get started is either from a) Joining the Newbie Mixes or b) Somehow getting a mentor almost immediately. Useful video resources on TH-cam right now are pretty much just Callout Videos, and Twitch clips from b4nny. The only other major source on TH-cam is watching the VODs on the RGL TH-cam Channel. So I don't blame new players at all for not knowing what's going on etc, the resources aren't accessible to most people. Hopefully we'll see that change as time goes on.
As a Casual player, I think the "great disconnect" between Casual and Competitive comes from TF2 being THE casual pvp game of the modern times.
CSGO, Valorant, and ever Overwatch are not just *functionally* similar between a ranked pub and a tournament, but even "normal" players play those games to WIN and RANK UP. They share the same mentality with tournament participants, they're just not as good at the game.
TF2 meanwhile is a game with no meta-level stakes like the ladder, where willingly inefficient play is commonplace (demoknights, trolldiers, stacked spies), and where people in general value fun over winning. Try to pick your favorite non-meta character in Dota and see how your teammates react (spoiler: badly).
I think there's a self-selection process going on, where people who want to have low stakes pvp get channeled to TF2 (due to other relevant games being high stakes), which doesn't go well for the Comp.
That, plus the game feels designed around 12v12 clusterfucks of everyone doing whatever they want alone or with others, cooperating or not.
Another problem in the comp tf2 scene is the existence of a type of cronyism, the same people seem to stay in the same divisions main and above on rgl at least in 6s and there doesn't seem to be much upward mobility even for those who have been playing at that division since ESEA open. This could be boiled down to the overall skill of the divisions goes up with them and because it's always the same people playing each other each season it's a never ending cycle. But I guess what i'm getting at is a more professionalized recruitment for invite teams and maybe the opening of academy teams to create a farm system. sort of like what they do in overwatch with the league, contenders, and open.
I agree really hard with the "no team will scrim you if you play nonmeta" comments. It hurts the scene big time, and I've seen teams go around it by doing normal scrims then doing a ton of training behind the scenes with off-class battle plans. A good example was a couple of lower leagues that had people using a pyro instead of 2 scouts or 2 soldiers, airblast totally ruining the roamer on the other team trying to kill their med and allowing the pyro to fight off their scouts because of afterburn forcing a fallback. The teams in a couple of cases like this, however, complained that the other team, who was outright destroying anyone that refused to adapt, was "throwing" all of their matches. They all wanted to be in the higher leagues so badly that they outright complained that the other team must be doing this to troll, instead of it being a tactic that was completely WORKING until they were told to avoid doing off-classing outside of the usual cases. Some teams will even refuse matches, official matches, if they don't get their way. Higher leagues have rules to stop this, lower leagues do as well, but lower leagues buckle to the "best" players, who gripe the most.
I love how this video is a mash up of two of my favorite games being tf2 and melee, really caters to my poor attention skills where I find myself flipping videos every few minutes.
The fact this has 36 views only is insane
It makes sense, I don't upload often and have a decent amount of "dead-subscribers". Unless the algorithm picks up the video (or really any of my uploads) for some reason, or someone large shouts me out/my videos get shared, viewcounts will continue to max out around ~200. The only thing I can do until then is keep creating!
5:21 I question how true this is. Especially to the viewers of a match. Take for example the recent matches of Pearson Specter. The viewers and commentators were excited about Antoni using the beggar's. Your point about scrims is a different case because people looking for scrims typically are looking a for a mutually beneficial arrangement. A team practicing against a nonmeta class composition or load out is not very beneficial when they are mostly going to be going up against teams running meta class compositions and load outs.
I think melee has this same problem. If you are practicing for a tournament you wouldn't want to practice against a bowser, even if that browser player is cracked because that practice won't be very applicable compared to playing against a more common character.
Many of the problems of competitive tf2 are due to the insistence of the pros to put the traditional 6v6 game mode as the main, when team fortress was never created as a 6v6 everything throughout these more than 10 years was thought with all classes in mind but the stubbornness of many 6v6 people put things as they are now, TF2 can never be perfectly balanced for traditional 6v6 and even less with how it is currently and how its community is. they say that highlander shouldn't be the game mode mainly because it has problems; but 6v6 has many more and worse. I have seen 6v6 games and it is literally quake with hats, if I want to see competitive quake, I go and see it directly (I play competitive quake from time to time), I want to see competitive TF2. It's good to see people in 6v6 with a head and who know the flaws and try to improve but unfortunately most of the main members are not like that
You would be surprised! I can't speak for those outside of North America, but in RGL I've seen a lot of people advocating for a more inclusive environment and it's been really refreshing to see. When I started in competitive TF2 I had a similar mindset to you if I'm being honest, and I'm really happy that most of my negative preconceptions of competitive TF2 were squashed fairly quickly. I'm hoping we can inch closer and closer to having a better environment. Whether that's changing "traditional 6s" or running No Restriction 6s, which is just Valve competitive which we've run in the past a few times (one recently with the Chucklenuts).
There is nobody who hold the community together because Its required for any development to be made. So problem honestly boils down to Passionate people with the right skillset. You can't ask a competitor like b4nny to do PR, Community building AND Networking to make changes.
And even after that condition is done somebody has to make up the new ideas and experiment which is VERY time consuming.
Agree a lot with this video and I wish I had a better work schedule as it’s now hard to Practice like I used to if I want to play six’s.
I understand! My last season in IM I lost sleep every night of the week due to 6s, probably not the best life decision but I had a lot of fun and it was a good experience.
A lot of casual tf2 fans (and some people in the comments) seem to think that introducing attack/defend or payload into the sixes map rotation would be a good way to shake up the meta but I think it's a horrible idea. Even if the maps were designed around having 12 players instead of 24 it would be a never-ending slogfest and completely destroy the (usually) fast-paced and fluid nature of sixes. Overwatch is a great example. With the amazing addition of ultimate abilities they managed to make the already slow gamemode even more horrible, and attack/defend was so bad they had to remove it. I mean, Overwatch is a nightmare when it comes to competitive game design, but the gamemodes aren't exactly helping. Payload is, in my opinion, a gamemode which is great for casual, and where it should stay.
With that said I don't think valve competitive is good either, especially in it's current state. I think that the whitelist and class limits are good for sixes, if nothing else preventing people from running two medics, which isn't fun for anyone, and I don't think there's any sort of balance that could prevent that without destroying the medic entirely. I think the main thing stopping more offclassing is that it's untreaded ground and people don't like when you do it as you stated in the video. I think you've proven running an offclass full time is (at least below invite) definitely possible, and I think your video about running an engie full time will inspire people to try more wacky shit, which I think will be good for the scene. Spy is the only offclass that I think isn't viable to run full time, and I don't see how you could buff him to make him both fair in a casual setting and reasonable to run a good chunk of the time. I don't really have a problem with it though since it makes spy plays more hype.
Anyways, I'm just rambling atp. Great video, keep doing what you do.
EDIT: pls rgl unban disciplinary action
The 20XX of TF2 is 12 snipers
Good comment! The only thing I'd like to add about A/D or Payload is that both gamemodes haven't had a map specifically designed for 6s yet. There technically was Scourge for a while, but that's a Highlander map now to my understanding. When I was testing for cups I ran Cactus Canyon and that unironically played really well. Overall I think that just getting a well designed map, or gamemode changes could help a lot with integration. Ex for Payload I'd like to see how it would be if the cart cap limit was removed for competitive TF2. And I understand your sentiment about class stacking but the only issue that I've personally seen in NA with that for NR6s is when 1 medic uses the vaccinator, and another uses something else. But that's just more of a testament as to how good the vaccinator is (as well as certain other unlocks like the wrangler). I don't think balancing for those weapons is impossible, and I know how big of an ask it is to get them to rebalanced, but it could happen some day if enough people at Valve pick TF2 as their pet project for a while.
I used to play competitive Smash (Also Project M, I'm a Lucas main!) and later Splatoon for years, and I'm planning on entering comp TF2 with 6s. This video described EXACTLY all my problems with comp TF2 though. The weird gap/hate between comp and casual, the iron mindset of only playing one specific meta, certain items being banned to seemingly protect that one specific meta, this strange fight between highlander and 6s. It feels as though the comp TF2 scene is making things way harder for themselves than it needs to be just to protect their tiny bubble. On the other hand, I was heartbroken when PM got its treatment, and I think its biggest flaw was depending on and trying to please the Melee community a little too much rather than doing its own thing. Personally, I want to see more effort being put into making comp TF2 more available for casuals, without restrictions like "We don't tolerate offclassing in newbie mixes so that it's being made sure your experience with comp will root within this one meta". Let the people learn in their own way, please! Let them form their own conclusions. Make low level comp more casually approachable so that casual players can LEARN to APPRECIATE and be HYPED for high lvl comp TF2.
idk just my 2 cents
I think you hit the nail on the head here for casual sentiment to competitive TF2. Personally I'm working (and hoping) we can lower the barriers to entry as much as possible and encourage a wide array of playstyles, that way just about everyone who wants to take their gameplay to the next level can.
There are reasons why certain classes are not played in 6s, this is due to 5cp maps. On a map like process it takes a year for the heavy to get to mid, when soldiers scouts and demos can get there in as little as 15 second. The classes are picked because they are the fastest and best, I'm sure if you replaced arrek on old froyo with a pyro or engi main, froyo would never had been as dominate as they were. This is because the engi/pyro bottlenecks them. Of course you can try whatever, but the reason you will get c alled for throwing is because you pretty much are. Now if you do wanna play classes such as pyro etc go see HL its just as much fun as 6s.
@@croudxd Pyro in HL is NOT nearly as fun as 6s in my experience. I don't wait to sit around and babysit the medic, and occasionally deny ubers. That's not fun.
Also I see what you mean. But I would say Pyro and Heavy are far more viable in NA than they are in EU. In RGL the buffalo steak is unbanned, and the pyro has no bans besides the reserve shooter (can use Detonator and Scorch Shot). Both of these boost the viability of each of the two, especially for pyro. But yeah I would say that Heavy on rotate mids like Process and Sunshine is just going to get shredded due to early mid positioning by the other team.
@@QueeQuey even so if you run a heavy, as a roamer I'm insta going sniper because I can't do anything. I personally think we should try payload maps, but nothing like upward or anything we need some better map design which Is smaller like in overwatch. This would then create a different meta.
@@croudxd 100% agreed! Right now I think we just need maps to be created/tested for 6s. I actually did testing on Cactus Canyon for RGL and it unironically played really well, it's just that stopwatch doesn't work for multi-stage payload maps unfortunately. But I would be interested in Payload or A/D. Scourge was originally a 6s map but is now being developed for Highlander from what I've heard, could be worth looking into. One thing I'd also be interested in looking into would be if we removed the cart cap limit would payload get significantly faster due to having a higher incentive to maximize cart pushers? I'm sure strategies would ebb and flow off of that.
I have always wanted to play TF2 Comp but the problem I have always had wasn't the ban lists, wasn't the lacking maps/gamemodes, it was the simple fact that I just want to play an absolute chaotic soup of call outs and partials with a full 12v12 match and honestly, I think a lot of map or weapon balancing issues could be more balanced with a higher number of players with a high focus on what you double up on in a match. The biggest problem other than people throwing a fit is just the sheer number of people required for something like that.
You should check out "TF2 clan wars grand finals" here on youtube if you haven't seen it. It's an absolute chaos of 24 very good players in a Casual setting without any bans or class limits. It's the closest we ever got to competitive casual.
The best way to get your fix for that is Uncletopia
@@colatf2 Oh I know. Doesn't help that my local ones are always full and have over thirty minute wait times along with the fact that it isn't actually separated into a competitive system to differentiate between playing for fun with uncletopia and playing for glory with competitive.
I've used to play in an amateur football league and... Good luck organizing any real competitions that require two dozen adults with day jobs and shit present at specific time. Ain't happening.
@@AliceLoverdrive you could say the same about big dnd groups.
“Active” developer
Sad but true
That subject about people leasing off meta picks in Melee has started to come to DK too. Just wanted to point that out.
Haha yeah I've been a fan of Ringler for a while. In case you haven't caught it, that new DK documentary is actually pretty sick:
th-cam.com/video/Rqp4RpFXwu8/w-d-xo.html
Late to the party but why casually gloss over the fact that Valve has never sponsored TF2's comp scene. I've been around a good while. I played comp in late 2009 and a few times after between 2010 and 2017. I could be wrong but to my knowledge I don't remember Valve ever putting money towards any prize pool in any tournament. That is a HUGE reason so many left for OW when it launched was the potential to make money from playing the game they love. The community is the single reason games like smash and tf2 are still alive and kicking. I wish Valve would support the game a bit more on the comp side of things instead of treating it like the red headed step child of their games.
I think part of what makes 6’s so great is the uniformity. A game mode in which everyone is on the same playing field, and ultimately the winner is the team with better coordination, individual skill, and game plans. I think swapping a scout with a pyro just throws the even playing field on its head.
Also one thing I think you didn’t mention is RGL divs. One thing I didn’t understand is why teams that didn’t place, and ended up somewhere in the middle at the end of the season decided to move up. I feel like in S5 most IM teams were not at the level of the top AM teams. Ever since then I feel a lot of people are playing in certain divs for the “status” but have created a situation in which NC - Main has players scattered around in divs, making a big gap between the bottom level teams in a div and the top level teams in a div.
Sixes are stupid. Wrangler ban and more than 2 medic ban makes sense, but the sixes ruleset has huge problems:
- It overly favors mobility classes because of the long mid rollout.
- Whitelist exists to enforce a meta instead of banning meta-centralizing items. Meta is incredibly centralized yet weapons like GRU are banned because they un-centralize it.
- It actively disadvantages engi buildings because the fight moves around, and in koth the losing team has no reason to build dispensers to keep hold of the small area they control.
- Spy is badly designed class, it will never be seriously played in comp unless you play 9v9, but then team sizes become an issue.
- Sniper is badly designed class, long sightlines are instantly competitively unviable and picking him leads to slow and boring gameplay.
Really, those are issues. There isn't a way to solve them in the current map pool, either. 5cp tends towards draws and with koth, overcentralize meta towards mobility.
Capture the Flag is pretty good gamemode if the maps were better, because it allows all classes to be viable as even when you're down points, there is a reason to defend.
Sadly it's also extremely same-y feeling
2 scouts, 2 soldiers, demo and a medic
with other classes being rarely played for longer then a minute
with a load of maps not working for it either because, well, game is 12v12 oriented, not 6v6, nor is the game pushing people to win, it just leaves you at the start, there is a finish line, do whatever you want to reach it, win, loose, don't matter
Real problem is queue! IT TAKES MORE THAN FIFTEEN MINUTES TO GET IN!!!
i just wanted to say that this video looks a little too rose-tinted at the melee scene. leffen and armada literally advocated to ban jigglypuff when hbox was winning. hbox is probably one of the most hated players i have ever seen in a scene and was incredibly divisive when he was kicking everyone's ass. all for his playstyle, which people forever thought was "killing melee". mango, for all the good he has done for the scene, literally lead the hate against hbox for a very long time, nothing that bad to my knowledge has ever happened in tf2. there are some things to appreciate about melee's scene, but you have to realize that melee is not an idol in any respect for tf2 to look up to. just recently melee squandered its hugest opportunity to have a smash world tour and ousted one of their hugest supporters, panda, and they have endlessly done witchhunts in their communities on innocent players (h4x, westballz) because the community is so small it is susceptible to a lot of hivemind thinking. but i digress, my only point is that melee as a scene is not something "thriving". regardless of its ability to unify itself as a great competition, its community is significantly more immature and less developed than that of tf's, regardless that it is a divisively complex scene.
also, the melee scene ABSOLUTELY does not glorify mid tier nor do they appreciate them. if you've actually played mid-tiers on slippi (yoshi, pikachu), you'd know the community genuinely does not like playing them. especially spacie players. the reason why you are saying people think you're griefing in a 6v6 with an off-meta pick, is because (from their perspective, mind you) you are not only wasting your team's time, but the enemy team's time as well. in comparison to melee, its a LOT easier to convince 1 other person to play your off-meta pick.
in your average team games, say dota/league, there has forever been a permanent issue of picks being "troll picks" whether or not you are even good with them, and this is not an issue that we can simply put on tf2 and its community alone. its an issue that's permanent to all team games period. its like playing with only a shotgun on counter strike. if you're playing a game to win and you're doing off-meta, there is ALWAYS going to be people complaining, that's just how it is. the only solution to this issue is to make more team compositions viable, basically period.
anyways i know this sounds mostly negative but i think your video is very thought provoking and i'm just trying to give my perspective. i do think your input on the halo scene was very informative and gave me things to think a bout regarding the TF2 scene and that actually does make a pretty interesting parallel. this game no doubt needs a unifying format that can be enjoyed by more people. but in terms of melee and tf2? well... the grass is always greener
It too scary for me even with 1200 hours I still don’t think I’m good enough for that
The problem is that the meta doesn't change at all, it gets boring quickly
I don't think a game doesn't have to change for the meta to change though. Chess' meta has changed over the last 200 years, yet the game is pretty much the same
still waiting on that zatoichi vid
can you summarize your points for me? the only thing I picked up from you was:
comp tf2 isnt popular because it isn't smash
because valve mishandled it
not enough money, e.g. smash has money and does well
[insert point about how tf2 isn't smash]
Not sure if you're trolling or not, but I'll respond seriously just in case you're being genuine:
Many people compare TF2 with Smash, usually just because it's an old (grassroots) game that has a thriving competitive scene all these years later (which I have some experience in) hence all of my comparisons to smash.
Competitive TF2 is making similar mistakes to what have been made in the games I've played competitively in the past: primarily distancing the competitive ruleset away from what's in the vanilla game using stuff like modified maps, configs, whitelists etc.
The 6s scene is very negative towards non-meta runners, which is pretty bad in a game that scene wants to grow (we're being exclusive rather than inclusive).
People need to stop calling for the top teams in 6s or HL etc to be broken up. Comparing to Melee, players being dominant then usurped is some of the best parts of Melee's story.
Every competitive scene that I know of has 1 major format, TF2 has 2 (maybe 3 if you consider Prolander) which is an issue since it breaks up the competitive playerbase far too much.
Valve chose to create NR6s for a reason, and if we want them to support us we should run it (RGL has in the past but only for 2 seasons and a recent cup).
Funding can come from many sources but the attitude of a good chunk of the competitive community is that they don't want to pay for anything (for example: every level of Highlander in North America except for Invite is free, while every division after Amateur in 6s is paid) so relying solely on crowdfunding may not be good for TF2 despite it going over well in Melee.
We need more content creators to talk about competitive TF2, or top competitive players to create content to get people interested in the scene.
@@QueeQuey the problem is (and sorry for late AF comment) is the simple issue of the game not being designed around just 6 players on each team, nor just a select few of gamemodes.
Not to add the community isn't really that interested in taking the game seriously, it's jsut played for fun, mostly not to win, all while doing dumb stuff just because. And frankly it's fine? Comp scene does have their own side, with their own servers, even when official comp was tried people still went back to third party comp anyway, and weapon bans weren't changed after some weapons got nerfed into the ground from what I recall. While Casual part has casual servers and community servers.
the problem is this analogy falls apart entirely when you realise that the offclasses aren't actually the falcon and yoshi of the game, they're the ice climbers with wobbling, and that's why all their best weapons are restricted lol
not completely true but I see the vision. too much variability diminishes the strengths of 6s that we value competitively, which is mobility and DM. Reminds me of that one Rishi video.
Also don't get me wrong, team play is important, but the sheer speed and execution of generalists will always outweigh playing off-meta. Heavy can't sac as good as soldier. Engi can't run away and build with med in disadvantage. At most, I believe specialists can function like spy and get a surprise pick or distract players with weird timings (not full time).
@@user-nm9yd4wq4s big disagree, the worst part of the game is getting stuck pushing or defending last, and the specialists cause it entirely. engineer is broken asl in equal ubers, it is 100% meta to play engi on last & this is true to such an extent you'd be considered actively trolling if you didn't play engi on at least half the 5cp maps - and thats WITHOUT any of the unlocks that make engineer good... pyro+engi on certain lasts like gully is already a big problem for even top teams
I get where you're coming from with it's another variable and therefore interesting in some eyes but devalues it for others, but it's actually not, if you allow it unrestricted valve style, the meta becomes every time you push last you now have to shoot my sentry with 1000hp instead of 350, so your uber sucks now. the issue as you say is not that specialists overbear the general game, obviously these characters have limitations and its very tough to get them to work full time, but that isn't a real weakness, you just switch. the restrictions are there because the specialists are too good in specialist situations, idk who told you specialists are like surprise wildcard variables
@@FWbitxhh tl;dr my B and schizo rambling tbh
We have come to a misunderstanding. You're talking about whitelists. I'm talking about the "Non-meta" section. I see what you mean about "wobbling" now. The specialists are just inherently degenerative to everything great about 6s (haha stale mates :)) and some unlocks make it worse. I get it.
What I'm trying to get at is a full-time off class sucks and shouldn't be run seriously. They're success is completely based on unfamiliarity in the meta and gimmicks. Not to mention a good chunk of specialists tend to just be good tf2 players. Like you could dump b4nny on spy in Amateur and he could probably claw out a froyo first finish. At the very MOST, I can see a player switch off at an odd timing rarely as a strat. Worked for kawa and muma switching to pory in advanced. Other than that it's wasting time that could be spent improving at the 6s meta game rather than be a hard stuck engi LFT main. I can't see the fun of being a full-time engineer Amateur division gatekeeper. It's so pointless.
QueeQuey's favoritism of specialists and Melee's mid tiers is wrong. He fails to recognize the countless players that fail to succeed at all. Players like to idolize the top and emulate their play. While the staleness of Fox is an eyesore for viewers, the actual players recognize the character's versatility and options; something the tf2 generalists possess to a degree. There's a reason players quit out on you in Slippi, and it's because you play lame and make the game less fun. Same logic goes for the pyro scrim hypothetical. The culture just doesn't want lame players succeeding and devolve the meta into counter class nonsense at low divisions that doesn't happen in Invite.
There's reasons why items get banned and reasons teams don't do full time specialists. No Restriction 6s cups exists as a cautionary tale of sorts for this. I don't get why he wants this change beyond the thought if Valve came back after we played by their rules. I'm really in my fuck Valve era after this update.
Epic
squidword who helped you create a tf2 youtube channel ?
holy shit ur voice is like young squidward
Me on the forward spawn on Metalworks before cratering:
th-cam.com/video/s8vY9IQKKXs/w-d-xo.html
ohio moment
You, just like many other newer competitive players, have a bit of a rose-tinted view of the competitive scene and Valve. Yes I know you are aware Valve doesn't actually update the game and all that, but you're missing key events. Back before the Meet your Match update, we actually got the 'holy grail' moment in competitive TF2. This was when Overwatch was announced and many of the top competitive players at the time were urging Valve to respond because otherwise they were practically forced to stop playing TF2 competitively if they wanted to make a living. On top of that, the scene felt that this was the one and only opportunity to make Valve do anything that could change the landscape we'd been stuck in for 10+ years at that point.
Valve, to everyone's surprise, ended up actually responding after a bunch of top players internationally came together and sent them a letter. It was a last-ditch effort and it seemed to work.
What followed was hundreds of top players, and thousands of the community coming together to playtest, review and give feedback to Valve on how to grow the scene. I've never seen a community be this focused and passionate about wanting the game to succeed competitively.
Ultimately (long story short) Valve proceeded to betray the community's trust and not listen to the feedback and playtesters and instead 'ruin' the game with the atrocity that was the Meet your Match update. Releasing a broken matchmaking system, balance changes nobody asked for, on top of pitting the already adverse casual fanbase more against the competitive one than ever before. An effect that is lasting to this day.
Many of the people who poured their hearts and souls into all of this nowadays either don't play the game anymore, or just play for fun. This is especially true in regions other than North America, where people no longer look to push for the 'good of the game' but would rather play and have fun challenging themselves and improving. Many of the top players of the time left the game to make a living doing other things. Quitting gaming, doing overwatch, going into streaming, casting (production) etc. The funny thing is that a lot of top players and community members who had forsaken Valve after their betrayal actually ended up going somewhere in gaming, while the people who stuck with the game and kept believing in Valve have to this day, gone nowhere.
Colour me unsurprised then that I keep seeing videos with similar opinions to these in your video by newer players, either ignorant or unwilling to give up. Although I do respect the grind, as it were, I honestly don't think it will go anywhere. We will not see the competitive TF2 scene flourish unless Valve actually supports us. And the chance that this happens is so infitesimally small I don't even consider it.
Alongside the other comments criticizing your view here, with some pointing out the flaws in your Smash timeline, I have to say I'm still not convinced.
I'll keep playing competitively and helping out newer players and promoting inclusivity instead of toxicity. But I'm not going to delude myself into pushing for the most 'vanilla' TF2 experience in 6s. That time has long passed.