Resin vs. FDM Prints | Which is STRONGER?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 30 เม.ย. 2024
- I tested a set of samples printed from Siraya Blue resin. And compared them to PLA+. This testing is by no means complete, but it should give you a bit more info in the properties of resin prints. As well as eSun PLA+.
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NOTE: At 15:40 the blue is vertical and the red is horizontal. Got them mixed up somehow ;)
Haven't finished the video yet, but have by chance tested FDM pieces that have been ran through an "annealing" cycle?
Supposed to help with layer adhesion by effectively remelting everything together and releasing any stresses between layers caused by uneven cooling.
Might change the vertical test piece performance for the better.
@@wanderingcalamity360 I just asked this in the last video...then saw a video by CNC Kitchen on annealing. It doesn't look at all good for annealing...
@@wanderingcalamity360 I experimented with annealing PLA+ in hot water, it made the parts weaker! My guess is the water broke down the plastic. Further investigation is needed. The biggest problem is preventing deformation of the part.
@@HoffmanTactical
The way I've seen it done is they cast the completed part in plaster or silicone and do a soak in the oven for an hour or two so at the requisite temperature for the material.
Not sure about hot water soaking.
Haven't looked into that technique.
I know moisture content can adversely affect printing quality, like with nylon. But after printing? I wouldn't think that would have an effect.
One big advantage of SLA printing is the fact that bonding between layers is not a serious issue. Where as FDM prints are only as strong as these layer bonds, in resin printing you can get all of that strength. There are also resins out there that are just impressively durable. The 3DM abs resin is really good, and far superior to FDM printed ABS because of the aforementioned layer adhesion qualities. Unfortunately its fairly chemically reactive. There are also some nylon like resins that have insane properties. Check them out as well sometime.
I would like to see Hoffman review nylon-like resin!
Thank you for taking the time to do this. Excellent work as always.
The resin print has different cross sections at the shear point. The sharp edges of the flat print verses the rounded shape of vertical.
Oh that's totally what did it, good catch
Definitely calls for a future retest with identically shaped samples.
Excellent! Thanks for taking the time for the test!
Just finished v2.6 and had everything put together in less than two hours. First time I didn't have to drill all the holes and everything lined up. Ty for your service. I love the kit
That's really good for a first print. What printer / plastic did you run?
@@HoffmanTactical wasn't my first print. I used inland pla pro(new). I've printed a few of your older models in cf pc. I had problems with the bolt cycling with the newest build. Think I printed it slightly too big and going to try again. I have a cheap labist et4 printer with some minor upgrades. I printed the x and y at 100.4, next ill try 100.3 like you did on the prusa mk111
Great job with this.
Very informative.
The material science here is really interesting. TL; DR version is curves show far more toughness (integral of the area under a stress/strain graph) and that is what you would expect. The SLA printers are making more isotropic material where FDM/FFM is anisotropic (different strengths in different directions). Good work!
The heat deflection temperatures for resin prints should be quite a bit higher than for FDM prints. I don't know exacts for the Siraya Tech Blu, but I know several engineering resins have heat deflection temperatures above 500-600 degrees Fahrenheit.
Also, large form factor MSLA printers are available for reasonable prices now, like the Elegoo Saturn.
So it's looking like with the right resin you could produce a better lower or frame. If not fully feasible yet it will likely be very near future.
Which means I can print a nearly clear frame and call it Casper and then I can say a finally have a ghost gun.
Of course you have to create a different printing environment due to chemical fumes so ventilation is critical for health reasons.
Yes. Keep a close eye on resin printers! They will probably replace FDM for a lot of applications.
@@HoffmanTactical
Seems promising, but there's still a ways to go.
The Siraya Tech Blu actually has a clear variant color for it that does get close to transparent.
@@wanderingcalamity360 I am intrigued enough that I just ordered a Anycube resin printer ;) So we will see for sure if resin works for lowers.
@@HoffmanTactical
Looking forward to the results.
Thanks you very much for your Work :)
HDT for thermoset resins depends very heavily upon the specific resin used. Also, because it's a thermoset, the total deflection should be significantly less than for any FDM print, because, well, thermosets don't melt lol. They do still obviously deflect more easily with temperature, but they will almost certainly distort less than any FDM print. The primary issue with most resins is impact resistance. A lot of them tend to be quite brittle due to the highly crosslinked nature of thermoset polymers. There are some more impact resistant resins out there, though, that are often a mix of thermoset resin with some sort of rubbery material or thermoplastic. This kind of thing can obviously hurt the HDT and Tg of the material, though, so it's a trade-off.
Anyway, what I'm basically trying to say is this: the properties very heavily depend upon specific resin choice, even more than FDM prints tend to.
When I did some toying with high temp resin, I found them to have pretty big issues at temps above 100c. Specifically Phrozen TR250 resin, and when printed samples were placed in a headed enclosure at 120C for 4 hours, the resin seemed to degrade quickly. Printed layers began to delaminate from the part and serious warping occurred. The material also cracked in several places. It's possible that trapped moisture within the resin matrix was turning to steam and damaging the structure of the part, but placing cured parts in my filament drying setup at 80C for 12 hours didn't improve the results at high temp.
Phrozen seems to have a new and improved high temp resin, TR250LV, which is advertised as being able to withstand up to 120C. I haven't put time into testing it yet, but perhaps they have managed to mitigate the cracking and delamination issues.
Hmmm...now I guess I have to save up for an Elegoo Saturn...I believe that one is big enough to print an AR lower...
Thank you for all your work! Thank you for these awesome videos! Keep up the great work!
I just ordered the Anycube Photon Mono. After carefully looking at the print volume of a bunch of machines, it looked like the best low cost option. I think it can handle an LR-308 lower.
@@HoffmanTactical good to know! I have been contemplating a resin printer for a while. The Anycubics and Elegoos were the two I had gotten stuck between...can't wait to see your results!
Just bought ender3 can’t wait to play around with it
Definitely check out his prusa slicer settings, they're a godsend
@@enderalteration5868 will do thanks for advice. 👍🏽
This is the whole reason I got a sonic mighty, just big enough for a glock 17 frame
Are you familiar at all with Siraya Tech Tenacious resin? I've printed stuff with a mix of 20% Tenacious and 80% Fast Grey, and the parts seem exceptionally strong. I'd be curious to see how that holds up in a test like this.
I have been using this and a mix of Blu and Tenacious is very strong. Adding tenacious can basically just make it a little less brittle which it blu's weakest point.
My question is PLA/FDM or Resin better for board game pieces when they will be accidentally dropped from table height or normal handling. Does anyone know and have a specific recommendation?
I bet resin would be OK if you get one of the tough resins. They would look better for sure. But you could also try PLA with a 0.25 nozzle.
im guessing the horizontal weirdness is due to them being flat, and any kind of flex would drastically change strenght, where the FDM is more ductile so it can make up for uneven stretch
I'll have to try again with identical samples printed in both orientations.
Is there any resin that compares w/ PLA for use in lost-(goop) casting? Most stuff I need to repro require metal for strength & heat resistance. It would be pretty cool if there was a resin that could produce a part that could be sintered a la' MIM (at a backyard hobbyist price point, natch'...)
You can get resin designed for investment casting. They designed to burn out cleanly.
Really good research, even the goat and the roost agree
How much material needs to be left on your CAD modal to allow for shrinkage when annealing or curing any plastic filament printed part compared to a part made from carbon fiber filament needs for annealing or curing? I need to hold a lot of tolerances of +/- .002" & a surface finish of 63 & 90.
You probably want to scale the part up in the X and Y axis. But you have to experiment with your filament to find out how much. Something like 103% is a good place to start. I've never annealed a CF filament, so don't know how much it shrinks.
i have a fdm printer... but the figures dont turn out so nice so i think abut getting a sla printer... if i drop a sla printed figure from the table will it hold up?
In some tough resins, probably. But in many of the "detail" resins, it would probably shatter.
Is it possible that the jaws of the sample tester will eventually skew results due to repeated loading and/or beginning to yield before the sample?
The entire machine has a certain amount of flex, which is reflected in the testing. When the jaws do flex, they will probably completely break. That's why I used Prusament PLA. Very ridged!
Please look up forgotten weapons video on the WWSD ar. It utilizes a polymer lower and buttstock but they are molded together in a 1 piece design. This could possibly make a much much stronger lower design for 3d printing but im not too sure how they designed the buffer tube to fit.
It's molded in halves that are then sonically welded together. Probably load the buffer tube liner in just prior to the halves being welded.
You know what would be interesting - if you could get a hold of a sample of injection molded GF nylon that most handgun polymer frames are made from.
Seeing how different 'home consumer' polymers stack up to each other is invaluable - but a control comparison with what the professional firearm industry uses would be enlightening.
Also, and especially for firearms - Impact resistance would be very important to test and document. Tensile strength is one thing - I think impact resistance is just as important in our partcular application
It is, and that is where the resin really does poorly, unfortunately.
id really like to know how fdm prints hold up after being salt annealed
Print them at .1mm layer hight and the stronger it'll be I promise that resin is stronger just like laying it flat and printing on fdm is stronger same applies for resin, but at .1mm layer hight or taller but not many like to do that because of quality.
Would love to see some additional PETG comparisons
I was just watching some of CNC kitchens videos. And PETG is not looking good! Check out his latest video on PCTG. Looks like a good alternative to PLA+. Little better temp resistance.
How viable is annealing in sand or fine salt FDM prints? In terms of adding strength or heat resistant.
I think (not 100% sure) annealing PLA will shrink the part a small percentage even if printing at 100% infill. I'm not sure what that percentage is, but you would need to increase the print size to compensate.
Check out CNC Kitchen here on youtube, he's done lot of work in this area
@@DeplorableBitterClinger I agree. He has a lot of good stuff on his channel.
It's not really annealing. The salt method is remelting. I'll second the other comments, check out CNC kitchens videos! They are all really good. In fact, if you look back, he did a video testing the same resin I did today. Very interesting.
Have you ever used resin on a lower to see if it would stand up to the forces
Yes.
@HoffmanTactical do you think it would work on a g17 frame? By the way I love your content. Thank you for all your hard work and innovations
gonna have to setup a impact test for the testing moving forward from the looks of it since nylon 910 wasnt much better than pla in your charts and maybe also a salt annealed test
Yes I need to. Also a heat deflection test. And then figure out a way to combine the data into do a overall filament rating.
Why don't you print in alternating zigzag? Linear will delaminate in the orientation its printed in.
With proper line widths aligned infill / lines will not delaminate. It's important to use aligned for testing to insure that there is no shear between layers.
@@HoffmanTactical ah. Thanks. Did you ever strength test annealed parts?
Is there any compression experiment?
No. I normally only do tensile, as that is closer to the predominate failure mode of the parts we make.
Hoffman Tactical, Have you tried any PCTG filament yet?
Not yet. I think it's a good option though. Check out CNC Kitchens latest video. Looks like good stuff.
@@HoffmanTactical, Thanks! I have seen CNC Kitchen's video. Now I'd love to see it tested for our purposes.
@@HoffmanTactical, Also, would coating prints in resin (on the outside) improve the strength enough to make that a worthwhile endeavor?
@@TrojanHorse1959 I have never tried it, but I really don't think it would help much. I did just see an interesting video on electroplating prints with metal. It's rather involved and has problems with eliminating fine detail, but makes for some strong parts.
@@HoffmanTactical, Ok, thanks. I just wondered if it would help strengthen the layers any to help prevent separation.
I am interested in getting a 3d machine to make stock adapters. It seems like resin would be the way to go.
It's not. Parts are still too brittle, and it's a pain to work with.
This is great! To get rid of some of the layer issues have you looked into genuine 3D printing? (This meaning moving in the xyz axis all at the same time) this gives layer directions that are curved and not in 1 axis I think it would help with break test.
Yes. Current 3D printing is really "2.5D" printing. True 3D printing is interesting, though it does have drawbacks. Hopefully it will be more accessible in the future.
You should try liqcreate strong X for a tougher industrial resin that is compatible with hobby printers like elegoo/phrozen/anycubic. I'm going to test a G19 build once I get the last of the parts.
im testing the "esun abs like" right now on my mono x. making a g19 using a P80 file.
I've been reading about resin specs all morning ;) The Strong X seams a little (very?) brittle. I am going to try the eSun hard tough resin next. They could be lying about the specs, but it looks really good on paper.
@@HoffmanTactical strong X is actually really strong for industrial applications and prototyping. Use it often and figured it would be a better resin than others due to the high heat resistant properties and tensile strength.
@@sergeantlonewolf Looking at the specs the tensile strength is incredible. As is the temp resistants. Almost like PEEK. But the impact resistants is something like 20 J/m^2 (J/m?). Which is really low. The Tough X on the other hand is a lot weaker, but has great impact resistants. So it may be a good option.
@@HoffmanTactical strong X has higher tensile strength at almost 100 mpa/14ksi, but because it was made for impact resistant it doesn't stretch before breaking, unlike tough which has less impact resistant, but more stretching before snapping.
Both should work really well for gun frame applications. But needs testing which I hope to do here in June for strong X.
What about the resin heat resistance ?
I think it's pretty good.
Try eleegoo grey resin it's the best for printing firearms imo
How is it with impact resistance? I just ordered some of the eSun Hard Tough resin. There specs look really good, though I don't know how true they are.
I nearly as you touched the Monitor Like this 🥶
Good work brother. I am sure many appreciate the diligence. Keep in mind the power hungry, wicked men in gov. may someday try to recruit you into their fold due to your high IQ, adaptability, etc. This may seem like an outlandish speculation but history shows that recruiting the brightest has been their M.O. for decades. They will do anything to win. Don't fall for the evil that permeate's through halls of D.C. Corp.
In my experience resin is far better than filament when it comes to an impact/drop. That's non scientific though and there are tests and specs on many resins available. I'm curious how eSun Hard-Tough resin stands up. Epax3D has a couple short videos showing how it takes a hammer and drilling.
So am I ;)
i have siraya blu and it’s too brittle for anything which would receive impact
I'll be testing the eSun Tough resin next. It's supposed to have higher impact strength.
You're not helping my budget. The AnyCubic Mono X has already been calling my name. But like you mention, resin printers are moving forward so fast right now, not sure if it's the time to buy. But computers do too, and we buy/upgrade those all the time,... Do you think you could go hose clamp-less with resin since you're theoretically only doing that for layer adhesion?
So I guess for me, the question is, "for
Even with an injection molded part the buffer band adds like forty percent strength. It's not there to hold the layers together (though it does do that) but rather to transfer the force to the support rib, which is what makes it stronger.
Some of the resin is a bit high. I just ordered a bottle of the eSun tough resin, it is only like sixty a Kg. And the specs looked really good. I don't think resins have surpassed FDM yet, a good high temp PLA is still a great option. Look into the 3D870 PLA. I buy it through Push Plastic. It's like eSun PLA+ but higher temp.
@@HoffmanTactical Thanks for the reply. Yeah, $60 isn't bad. For non solid applications, I'm thinking the infill of FDM is also a plus versus just a hollow resin print. More walls is good to a point, but you still want some infill structure to oppose wall movement.
But, it's also good to have options. 😉 and I only have fdm at the moment.
@@rcrdps8144 Being able to use infill is really nice. Stuff like stocks and grips really benefit from it.
@@rcrdps8144 also note that some slicers let you add infill to resin prints - I don't remember if chitu can, but maybe lychee and definitely Prusa.
@@joegibes Good point. I guess I momentarily forgot that. CNC Kitchen's test of Sirya Blu had infill on his test hook.
Just ordered a MonoX resin printer, so I have to learn these slicers.
I only understand toss and push-up tests. You’re going way over my head now.
Lol
16:04 welcome
Resin printers do print by layers that's why layer orientation affects it.
I clicked this over the Integza video,.... better be good. ;)
The printing should of been all the same. The only difference that i could think of is the curing time. I generally just sit it in my curing box and flip it sround every minute or so. I would assume the less time curing would equate to being a little more flexible but not as hard. I may need to relevel my bed tho, i was having a few issues lately, ive just a bit lazy with it.
Yes. As another guy said, It could have been a difference in cross section. One was round and the other square. So the bigger 8 KSI number is probably the accurate one.
Why no carbon filled nylon FDM prints? Your testing materials not 3D printing methods with regard to part strength.
Bucas Lotkin here.
I don't feel safe resin printing a lower and using it myself 🤣
Im the guy who sent the resin pieces in, and im not really sure how i feel about it either just because of how past resins worked. But in all honesty i was super suprised how tough this stuff is, i unfortunately live in CA, so its not really worth it to me to print a lower to test it.
I just ordered a Anycube Photon resin printer. So I'll be trying a lower. We will know for sure then!
@@aquadonkey. I would look into the HARD type resins. I'm still new to resin printing but I'm very happy with the details. Also in California, I won't let any silly laws interfere with my 2A liberty 😁👍
@@HoffmanTactical I have the photon it's a great machine for the price and you won't be disappointed.
@@gilr1488 I agree with you as well!
What's with the piano concerto? Just adding random music doesn't make the video better.
I spent like thirty minutes picking that! A little Chopin goes a long way.
@@HoffmanTactical OK. Fair enough about it not being random. But just being nice music that you enjoy doesn't mean it augments the audio and visual material you are presenting. Consider how the rhythm of the music combines with the rhythm and pace of your audio delivery. You want the two to complement each other. As it is, I find that the two things fight for attention. I understand that you aren't going to have a sound designer create background music and SFX for your video. So, IMO, your goal should be to find background music that complements the tone, pace and feel of your audio presentation. More often than not, I find informational videos like yours are better served not having music that accompanies the voice. FWIW, I'm not trying to be a jerk. Just trying to be constructive.
Quit touching the monitor! :)
I thought the same thing while editing.
Maybe a little too much piano
Stop touching your screen. Great content though.
If you're going to compare the resin to an FDM filament, you need to find a filament that has the closest properties as a the resin.
Dude, you're an odd dude. But i love it. Keep it up. I love your videos.
The explanation is useless,we search and click this video, of course because we knew what they are
Wow, stop touching your screen surprised you don't have any dead pixels.