i think newjeans & nmixx are two opposing examples of talent not being everything within kpop. music, marketing, & branding is. nmixx has been coined as one of the most talented groups in 4th gen, but they're not as popular due to jyp's choices. whereas newjeans aren't necessarily the most talented in the industry rn, but they're the most popular due to ador's choices. +another thing, i rlly hate when ppl say "groups like (insert underrated kpop group here) should be more famous", but they hardly ever go out of their way to engage with said groups.
also this isn't shade towards the newjeans members, ador's creative team & mhj has been praised countless amount of times as opposed to the members whereas the nmixx members have been immensely praised for their talent as opposed to jyp's creative team who "constantly do them dirty" i also think newjeans are more talented than kpop stans give them credit for
True that, what I realise the most about popularity in Kpop is that most of the time it's because of the capitalistic marketing these companies must do to push their artists towards that popularity Great reflection point :>>>>
Exactly like songs matter you can have totally basic and average vocal skills and still be the most popular. There's is reason why every music reality show winner doesn't become a great singer in future. Taylor Swift is a big example of that. She is average vocalist but her song writing, stage presence, performance, lyricism are on another level. BUT YOU DO NEED TO HAVE AT LEAST THE BASIC SKILLS LIKE TAYLOR HAS. Taylor still gets hated for not being a vocalist like ariana or beyonce, Taylor's live vocals skills are the bare minimum required to be a singer, MANY KPOP IDOLS DON'T EVEN MEET HER STANDARDS (like sakura)
Ngl. I acknowdlege Nmixx' talent. They wre amazing but their song as so boring that I can listen to it 😢 on the other hand, NewJeans songs are amazing and the girls have beautiful vocal colors.
@@annanowak9620nmixx has offered MORE variety genre wise & vocal wise😭 its already 2024 & they grow a lot into their music & saying that about nj's music just proves that you see a generic pop song offering little to non existent variety vocals is a standard of good song & good group.
8:25 you’re so real for this!!! Needless to say, I’m never shutting up about Nmixx😂 What this trilogy has taught me about you is that you’re someone who’s willing to hear different sides and perspectives while staying true to your own beliefs I’ve recently made a video on this encore stage situation; I think if we want to prioritise talent (or vocals) in kpop then focusing on lifting up those who deserve appreciation in this matter instead of targeting and bringing down those who lack in this area is pretty good way to go.
i agree with basically all the points in your video. from what i've seen, discussions of different idols' vocal abilities is 95% of the time just brought up during fanwars in parasocial individuals. people want their idol to feel superior and the capability to hold a note is an indicator of how some idols are "better" than others
This whole situation also started because the popular twt say “can’t believe SM give up their vocals to this” cuz there’s rumor Hybe gonna buy SM’s stock market. And then SM company stan got triggered and then it’s SM stan VS Hybe stan and then the whole community tuned into the discussion and here we are
I kind of question individuals that view less talented idols and their singing ability as "dragging down" the rest of the industry, when the inverse has happened in the western pop industry. There are plenty of bad singers in the western pop landscape but, you always tend to hear about the more talented performers and singers, the Beyonce's, the Usher's, the Ariana Grande and Bruno Mar's of the world. I'll admit there are radio friendly tunes that are performed by average at best vocalists but those tend to be few and far between. Like Olivia Rodrigo dominates the radio and, she's a great singer imo, same for Taylor Swift, I don't love her music but I'll admit she's a great singer, thus she garners more attention. Maybe stans see lesser talent and are worried that Kpop will fall down a similar path the 1st generation did but they can circumvent that themselves by just propping up talented idols instead of bringing less talented idols down. Like do we not realize the power we have as a community? Did the Loona situation teach us absolutely nothing?
Yeah. Going as far as saying a person drags down a whole industry is just straight up hate. Concluding a person can't sing well is one thing and sharing hopes for improvement is another. But saying someone disgraces a WHOLE group of others for lacking in one department is kind of wild. As if all of us are perfect in everything or something.. (not!) 😬
Maybe because people used to get clowned on when they like kpop? I never experience this honestly, but I’ve heard some people did. And if they did, I need them to know that you shouldn’t put your value on idols. Idols are not you. One idol doesn’t represent your whole community. We have passed that honestly. Many idols and even Asian artist are taken seriously now. So I don’t think one idol reputation will ruin an entire industry
@@margarete5920 that clowning exists because kpop has the same image justin bieber and 1D have which is people think it’s smth only teenage girls like so it’s automatically bad, topped off with a layer of racism. nothing to do with kpop idols’ talent or lack thereof.
@@armyswhoblinkonce2711then they shouldn’t make music. Just perform to existing music then if you aren’t gonna sing and just dance. That’s what dancers and performers do. I feel the industry started out as having singers but now it’s all about looks over singing.
I appreciate the fact that you fully dedicated yourself to understanding others while still representing your genuine thoughts and feelings. That, in my opinion, is very respectable, and I think few people would be able to do it this well. I do have to wonder why the kpop fandom is so dedicated to not being the kpop fandom. Yes. Most individual fandoms can be toxic as hell, but the larger fandom at least should be something you enjoy. You're allowed to have negative opinions, but why would you pick up a Shakespeare play if you don't like Shakespeare- or even just reading period? You wouldn't. And you have a free pass from me to skip Le Sserafim on any playlist they show up on. It's that easy. The other thing that gets me is how this is the same fandom that freaks out if there are similarities in two music videos or something. Kpop groups can't explore similar concepts because that's plagiarism, but Sakura is singlehandedly ruining the reputation of kpop vocalists? You can't have both. Are they destined to be completely separate entities, or are their talents inexplicably bound? I'm pretty sure Twilight's apple cover was an allusion to Eve, and I can recognize that without thinking Twilight ruined any shred of importance the Bible has.
I almost put “much ado about nothing” in the thumbnail of this video, but I didn’t want to taunt anyone 😭 It seems like this is a really emotional issue for a lot of people, and represents the ugliest parasocial bonds that we can develop with the industry. The kpop community is kind of like a mirror that some people look into, and if the discussion or narrative doesn’t match what they *want to see* in the mirror, that’s where reasoning kind of goes out the window
@@choujimi the sad part is I think that a lot of the people who are upset (one way or the other) would benefit a lot from reading the lyrics to Good Bones
@@choujimi it’s a problem for this generation in general honestly. People keep putting their moral view and even image to the person on screen. We used to say Knets/Korean industry has a high standard and we need to break it but now we also fall into their perception and putting idols into the standard we want to see
i always see the argument "well it's their job." , and i totally get being frustrated with kpop idols not being the best at singing, but their job is so much more than singing. being an idol is like doing fifty things at once and balancing another fifty books on your head at the same time. i feel like some of the idols who get criticized clearly put in their best effort as well, but they get hate for that too. so tiring
Yeah. Also, to be blunt, everyone's job is to make money for their employer. An accountant needs to do math because that's the value they provide. An idol's job is to make people like them in ways that are monetizable for the company. It's not their job to be artists. It's not their job to play into boyfriend/girlfriend fantasies. It's not their job to take hate from "fans". All of this is stuff they often do, but it is not an inherent part of the job. Just as almost everyone in English Kpop discourse agrees that idols should be able to date, we can agree that other norms should change as well.
@@bopete3204 "An idol's job is to make people like them in ways that are monetizable for the company." Exactly. Hybe wasn't concerned about Sakura's singing ability when they picked her up. They got her because she was one of the more popular members of Izone and Japan loves her, which means more people spending money.
EXCUSES EXCUSES. That’s because IT IS their job TO SING. If they’re gonna milk up some cash for the company, at least they should do their job properly that’s why they train for years to do singing while dancing at the same time. They trained to be in KPOP NOT Lipsync Battle, NOT KDANCE CREW
They literally market themselves as singers. How are people not going to criticize them if they’re going on stage singing songs. Thats like defending a bad actor and saying “ their job isnt suppose to be good at acting, they only have to be popular, good looking and likeable.” This is why kpop album sales are going down. Kpop is trash now
As a pop fan for way longer the kpop I always had in mind that skill and arterist and marketable and popularity are different parameters. In skills back dancers, choreographers, back vocals, back band, producers, lyricists are in general higher then the stars. We value the whole performance not a merithocracy of skills. Not even for job application skills arent the only requirements. Similar to a favorite movie. The protagonist actor can't hold all the film alone, the whole must work.
this Trilogy™ i believe serves as a reminder to the community that kpop means something different to everyone. the industry isn’t a monolith; so why are we expecting people to consume and perceive a multifaceted industry in just one way? it feels limiting and counterintuitive to the growth so many wish to see when we police fellow community members on their opinions of such trivial things (i say trivial bc once you break things down subjectivity is all it truly is).
To me the key is in the job description of "idol". To my understanding an idol isn't quite the same as an artist, though they can overlap. I enjoy it when an idol can sing, and respect those the skills of those that are talented, but when I tune in to an idol that really quite can't, I'm tuning in to the other aspects of the job description. Sakura has other merits that draw fans in, and those are just as valid as vocals. I do understand people to whom vocals are a sticking point, and there's some merit to the argument that the industry will shift according to audience responce. If you want to see more vocally talented idols, buy their music and merch. Support them monetarily, and you might influence the trends. But people don't tend to put their money where their mouths are, and instead we get "discourse" which borders on bullying and doesn't really lead anywhere.
exactly if you want to see change, don't really focus on the "untalented" idols but support talented idols like NMIXX instead. For example, if companies see that a group like NMIXX (talent) actually sells well, they will put in the effort to train their idols more and raise the idol standard with vocals, rap, dance, etc. Imagine multiple NMIXXs popping up, of course companies will rush to fit that standard. THIS IS THE WAY
I honestly think that there needs to be at least 2 people in a group who can sing but not everyone needs to do that. There are dancers and rappers too, kpop is so much more than just singing, and talent in general. You could be the most talented group out there but if you made horrible music I wouldn't care tbh, then I'd rather listen to someone "untalented" who makes good music. It doesn't hurt to admit someone from a group you like can't sing, it doesn't mean you're hating on them either or that they don't deserve what they have. I think Ateez is a group that became famous partly because of how talented they are, and I think that's so deserved honestly, but I wouldn't care if they didn't make good music (which they do, really, they make amazing music). Also I wanna thank you for being so respectful towards everyone in this video, and in general, it's really refreshing.
Yes, they should be able to carry a tune. They don't have to be at the levels of Mamamoo or SHINee, but AT LEAST have a stable tune. Wonyoung is not the best vocalist, but when she does live performance (or encore), she can hold a stable tune well.
NMIXX hasn't been doing that well because their music missed what the current market wants. They've changed their style and it's showing results. I guess it all boils down to what you like Kpop for. For me, I got into Kpop through Mamamoo. I liked the music, I liked the live performances, and that was always the priority for me. So those are the things I need in an idol group. Even with groups that have good music, if they're not actually capable of singing those songs live, it ruins the songs for me, I end up listening to it and stanning the producer. If you're a kpop stan for something else, your priorities would be different.
I’m with you, I got into kpop in 2008 when I was in middle school. I watched ALL of the music show videos that got posted on TH-cam, and they didn’t have the vocal back tracks the same way they do today. Sometimes the vocals were rough af, but it’s always been about the ~spectacle~ I loved SHINee because they were so obviously talented, but you know, Taemin and Minho were pretty weak vocally. I still stanned, they’re people I found entertaining, it was always exciting to see what they’d do next, but they’ve grown A LOT with all the experience they’ve had. Taemin is so vocally talented now, but I’m telling you the second gen was not all about vocal talent. Not to mention the sophistication of the dance that’s happening these days blows what was happening 10, 15 years ago out of the water. These groups and idols have lots of different types of talents, they’re always hyper critiqued. I love the idea of focusing on what you enjoy and hyping up the folks that are incredibly talented. I think generally it’s a lot healthier and more productive to pay attention to what is working and making more of that happen then attacking people who aren’t doing what you like.
When JLO was boycotted in America because (allegedly) couldn't sing but completely built her career as a singer by using many other people's voice samples without giving credit. Imagine if she was a kpop idol, she probably wouldn't be boycotted like she is now. Because her fans won't hesitate to cover for her because she's pretty and good at dancing and everyone lip-syncs.
Let's be also very fair to Sakura, she does really want to do better, and it's clear from music recording videos she wants to improve. I think encouraging her to get that improvement with hard work rather than putting her down, which can be a very awful method, is much better. Being mean could create an insecurity her whole career that she is doing badly, even at times she might be doing well. I absolutely agree with how hatred is an awful way to get idols to grow in certain sectors people find lacking. I believe she has the potiental to do it, and we just need to give her a pat on the back and tell her she can do it, allowing her to go at her own pace, rather than actually pushing her forcefully, which will force her to overwork herself, and even if she might improve a lot, it'll have a lot negative consequences on Sakura mentally. *This comment is open to any criticism, feel free to state nicely or harshly to me what you think can be proven wrong and deconstructed, I don't take it personal and do my best to see the points :)*
hi. okay so my take on the whole sakura situation is, yeah i find it disgusting since the hatred has gone to the next level. but at the same time, I can't ignore the fact that she has been in the idol industry (6 yrs in kpop + a few more years of jpop) for so long and yet she finds it hard to hit a stable note. mind u, I've been a long time sakura fan as i always wanted her to grow as an idol. fans have always been nice to her, to think she even placed 2nd in PD48. fans always thought she would get better, but unfortunately it didn't happen. since her izone days, i remember everyone was nice to her on the internet. yes obviously you aren't immune to hatred when you're a public figure, but the love from the fanbase was strong enough to overshadow the hatred. i understand vocals isn't a requirement in jpop, but in kpop it is. because if someone just dances, then that just counts as being a dancer. and idol is someone who excels in all the different parts of entertainment- singing, dancing, fan-service by interacting with fans, and idk more of somee admirable traits. it was understandable if she couldn't improve well during the izone days as she was new to kpop then and it's hard to lose a singing technique you have known for years. but now even after 6 years she faces the same issue. fans weren't even being harsh to her during the debut days of lsfm, it was when unforgiven happened and the encore performance that shocked everyone. from then on, that's when the hatred actually started. you mentioning people shouldn't put her down, but the fact that fans have always uplifted her even tho she lacked in vocals that is something to remember too. also, ik it obviously isn't the girls fault but, soumu literally disbanded gfriend for lsfm to debut. now now disbanding a whole vocally talented group, to now having a member struggle with hitting notes, I don't think people are really gonna like it. plus not to mention, the release of documentaries after every controversy on how sakura is struggling. yes i understand it is depressing, the whole idol life is depressing trying to impress people. but dhe should atleast consider the many other trainees who couldn't debut in lsfm so that she could debut (idk how many trainees were on thr lineup so I'm just assuming there obviously were a lot since soumu had many trainees). all i want for her is to take a long break from the idol life. to even realise if she wants to be an idol. i am in no way shaming her choices but, if she struggles so much and is depressed in the idol life i really think she should quit it. why choose a life that is so hard on you? saying this as i myself am a victim. i chose engineering in computer science as my major in college. i struggled my 4 yrs with so many backlogs. i loved maths and learning about computers since i was a child. i thought computer science was the career for me. but choosing it, i reached a time i thought of ending my life. i graduated with a 5.4 gpa out of 10. it was hell for me. but then i got a job as an analyst in a company and i realised yes i love math and computers, but the course i chose was wrong. and now i am happy. i think this is what sakura needs. and new perspective and a change.
@@mckha.b Absolutely, and I mean encourage her as in either give criticism or be nice to Sakura, I don't think people pointing out her vocals not being as developed as they should be is a bad thing, until it gets insulting, like most the exact thing most "critics". I definitely do think that the amount of self-doubt she's carrying might be a sign that her career could not be right for her. Of course, maybe she does want to, but she should really try and figure it out for herself. I totally wish her luck.
should kpop be about talent & should groups w/ "inherently" more talent have more recognition? yes, but it'll never work like that. despite sakura's "lack of vocal talent" there's a reason hybe chose her. despite hyewon's "lack of talent", there's a reason she debuted. visuals, personality, etc. the industry is unfair. i hate it just as much as everyone else, but what can you do?
She doesn't have to be singer but decent enough tho the defense saying well shes idol not a singer. Singing is still part of her job yes her job isn't to be singer there yunjin for that but she needs to be able to hold a note.
You actually gave me some insight on this whole situation. Thank you for this video, this made me really think about everything and how I went about it as well.
It’s not only Sakuras fault that she doesn’t sing the best. Hybe vocal training and the fact that she used to be in a group where vocals were something that were not focused on back in Japan. Tho not her fault, it is the bare minimum. It is her job whether people like it or not. Tho the job is called idol, singing, dancing, modeling AND performing are in the job description. If hybe/sakura don’t want to improve her vocals, that’s their choice if they want to or not, but fans can’t really be mad when they get criticized. And I’m not saying that hate is warranted to her because criticism and hate aren’t the same.
She can sing decently though so idk what these people are complaining about. She even improved IMMENSELY if we compare it to her HKT/AKB days but people would rather focus on what gifted singers have that she lacks than what she had already worked on through sheer effort. But in the end the hate against Sakura reeks of xenophobia. Fighting against it on the internet won't solve a thing but supporting her and others who receive unwarranted hate will work wonders for these idols
@@wzwzwzshe can sing decently on a good day but overall she’s really weak. kpop stans need to accept that their faves simply might not be good at smth.
What I find hilarious, or a bit weird, is that the word talent in itself, is a type of objectification of the person/idol. Because talent, is something that you are born with, an innate ability, or predisposition for something that underline the actual hard work of a person. Just because someone is more talented than someone else doesn't mean they work less. As it is the case for Sakura, I think we all agree that she is an extremely hard worker, but maybe that hard work didn't go to singing. Or maybe she just has a harder time with singing than any other skill. It actually doesn't matter the amount of hard work, people don't enjoy a product because they were a lot of hard work put into it. What I mean with the focus on talent being a certain type of objectification is this: justifying why you like someone based on abilities or characteristics, for example "i like her, because she has a beautiful voice" (like Swan from Purple Kiss) or "because she's beautiful" is certainly valid, but also an reduction of the entirety of a person. In real life, and not idol-culture, parasocial relationships and any celebrity-fan type of relationships, we like a person for the person. Them being good at singing isn't the reason why, because we don't NEED a reason.
I think the best solution is to just not support something you don't like. You don't like Sakura's vocals? Don't listen to the songs, don't buy the merch and just don't do anything which can benefit them financially. When the company realises their sales have dropped compared to the last comeback, they'll definitely look up the reason why. It's hard yes, but a group like Loona proved it's possible so why can't we do that? At the end their whole career depends on us fans, we do have the power to change things.
the fact that "they're idols not singers" is people's excuse for why it's completely fine for idols to be completely incapable of singing their own damn songs is ridiculous. if they can't sing they shouldn't be releasing music. simple.
This is such a weird POV to me. Do you think that, in general, if someone isn’t good at something/struggles to improve, then they shouldn’t do it? Or does this only apply to singing? Why? If people enjoy what they’re making, and others also take joy in their creations, why is that so bad? Because money/fame is involved? As long as the end product is good, I personally don’t care what it took to get there.
@@addyvalencia wow, so bold for someone who have such low standards. I bet some of the group you stan are performance based groups who can't sing foe shit & classify a tiktok quality song as a "good song". You know, the barely 2 minute upbeat song paired with lackluster surface level lyrics & the empty chorus that relies on the repetition & beat drops. I can tell that you're easily fooled by the flashy concepts, visuals & chore more than the the music composition & vocals but yiu do you. You're really proud of your standards even if you're wrong.
If you (Kpop fans) like live vocals then there’s plenty of groups with them. Stick to what you like and stop listening to groups you don’t like. Lsfm doesn’t have great vocals but are phenomenal performers. People need to stick to their own fandoms and stay out of others but it’s the internet people love drama.
As idols, being a great dancer while being a bad singer is still being a bad performer. Last time I checked, an idol’s job is to rap, dance ANG SING. If you’re just gonna lipsync or just dance, then why be an idol? They joined KPOP not KOREA’S BEST DANCE CREW not LIPSYNC BATTLE
"Stick to what you like and stop listening to groups you don't like." nahhhh. I still watch out to LSFM every comeback because I still want to see if their release would sound good. I was being OPEN. If I follow your (gatekeeping) advice, I wouldn't still be listening to Antifragile. With that said, when I hear an iffy live performance to an easy note, of course I'll cringe a bit. Because I only don't want to be open, I also am kinda critical about those kind of stuff. The peabrain haters are another story though.
@@billliealima group is a group for a reason. members cover each others behinds for things they cannot cover themselves. hence why idols like Wonyoung or Jennie(top quality idols) aren't soloist. there's also a thing called star quality? just like JYP said, Wonyoung is born to be an idol. she may not have the best dance, rap, or vocal ability, but her stage presence, charisma, and facial expressions speaks wonders. why do you think Sakura was called a top notch idol even before k-pop? some people aren't so keen on k-pop music, but find k-pop groups themselves funny or interesting. i myself love the music and the variety of idols different bubbly, shy, or tomboy personalities. why do you think idols are so fun to watch?? because they're carefully selected on not just talent, but also character. you can refine talent, but not character(less you're a psycho and fake asf). ofc it's not to say that anyone with a good personality can be an idol, which is why vocals, dance, and rap is taught. that also raps around to my other point, a group is formed of people that can combat each others weaknesses and make up for them. if anything, k-pop idols history stems from jpop idols, they weren't able to sing all that well, but rlly brought a performance. if you rlly do love vocals so much, there are vocally specialized group like big mama if you yourself are so interested.
@@billliealim so basically in general, they can have good stage presence and are great on stage, but if they aren't the best singers, then they are just bad overall? They can check every box but one potentially so they demand less respect? I disagree. You CAN be an idol and LACK a skill. That's human and no one's perfect. Just like how AESPAS sage presence and dance was horrible over all up until spicy maybe. So they didn't deserve to be idols then because idol have to be perfect. Even groups like nmix, fromis, and Stacy lack the stage presence that LSF have tho that can be subjective. It's a very valid view point you have I agree. I just personally don't think that them not singing well is end all be all, similar to dancing. That's they're job you're correct, but it's only PART of it not their ONLY responsibility.
One thing I'd like to clarify is that you say the average performance skill was higher in the 2nd gen, and I'd say this is true of vocals but not performance overall. Dance and stage presence are parts of performance as well, and dance skills have definitely increased over the years while stage presence is a bit more subtle but I think doing winks and looks at certain points of the choreo has been a more recent development. The performance skill is similar, it's just directed at different aspects of live performance.
@@el972as you said "to you" that's because stage presence it's a MOSTLY subjective topic compared to singing or dancing, not every people like the same style of performing.
Congrats on your win, Choujimi!! 🏆🏅 Glad you could find some humor in the situation despite the hateful and disgusting comments. 🤣🤣 Having a Kpop commentary channel is not for the faint of heart.
I think there are too many people romanticizing previous gens. 2nd and 3rd gen had idols that were not the most talented but were popular. What really advanced K-pop's popularity during the 2nd and 3rd gen was the industry allowing content to be shared freely. Before I got into K-pop, I was a J-pop fan. In Japanese entertainment, almost everything is behind a paywall. This is different from K-pop, where things are easily accessible and there are fewer restrictions on what fans can share online. From then on, it began to spread. What people forget is that it spread due to the public's choice. I think what is at the heart of this debate is that people are upset they can't make everyone have the same taste as them. I'm like you. I enjoy K-pop as a hobby and I like a wide range of groups with different abilities and levels of popularity. I do not look to one group to give me everything, because that is impossible. This obsession with perfection is why everyone lip-syncs, why no one goes on variety, and why a lot of the things we miss from previous gens are no longer here. Idols are just not allowed to be human and grow. If people want to call idols artists, they need to understand that artists also have periods of growth, stagnation, improvement, and setbacks. I would like to end by saying that there are a lot of K-pop fans who only consume K-pop and don't have much real-world experience. I do not mean that as a diss, but to make a point that when people say things like, "If this were any other job, so and so would be fired", they obviously do not watch other professionals or have much experience in the professional world. Shaq can't shoot a free throw for shit, but no one would tell him he's a terrible basketball player. He has his own strengths and weaknesses just like other players and that's why they play on teams. I look at idol groups the same way. They are all teams with each member having their own strengths and weaknesses, but in the end, they all complement each other.
THIS!!! Also i've noticed that MANY of the people who are saying things like "I wish kpop would be like 2nd and 3rd gen again they were so much more talented" are always the new kpop fans who probably didn't even know kpop existed during 3rd gen.
No matter how many excuse you give them. At the end of the day, these idols will still be in their companis studio recording room. They may be idols who do a lot of different ways to promote their career but you do know that when they guess, they're always asked what's in for their music right? No matter how many excuse you give them, as long as they're under a group & an ent company, their job will always lead them to holding a mic & using their voice. Do you see how many variety shows sk have? That's right, majority of them are all about singing compared to dancing. Idols should alwats have the foundation when it comes to vocals.
Haven't been following this discussion very closely. I'm just so incredibly tired of trying to find live clips of a song only to find that there's zero live singing or equally bad the backing track turned up to max and the live singing turned down to the faintest whisper, and then there's the fake live backtracks that are pre recorded and comes with complete with grunts and slightly more shaky vocals... just give me real live vocals and skip some of that hard choreography
Imagine if live were set up like this that it is always fair and the people who work the hardest and are the most talented always have the most success and nothing else would matter like the marketing, luck, timing etc.
5:10 why is this the case? to answer your question and reconcile the discrepancy the response to a lack of talent in idols in 1st gen vs 4th gen - i would attribute this to technological and digital developments like the rise of social media, especially tiktok and instagram (and a whole range of other platforms popular in asian countries). we see this not just in kpop but in other industries too; being a celebrity has been 'democratised' and now we have influencers. 1st gen kpop idols aspired to be talented performers, but 4th gen idols don't need to aspire to that same goal because they can easily be branded and marketed like influencers are (dance trends on tiktok/reels, personalised fan messages, idols getting personal instagram handles). kpop idols are so much more accessible than they used to be and so people don't hold them to as high standards as they would have back in the previous generations.
I like the emphasis on the word NEED because I think it's really important. When people NEED to do something, there's almost always an OR ELSE... People need food and water or else they die. People need to get to the airport early or else they might miss their flight. People need to cook ground beef well-done or else they risk food poisoning. In this discussion, a lot of people are not specifying what the or else is. Because if people think "idols need to be able to sing or else I'm not going to be a fan of theirs" that's a totally defensible view. Nobody should be forced to stan anybody. But in practice, people are behaving as if their stance is "idols need to be able to sing or else they've broken a cosmic rule and are therefore fair targets for harassment" which is totally indefensible. And some do try arguments about respecting talent, but when they face pushback their bottom line usually seems to be "a rule has been broken (and therefore anything that follows including my reaction is the idols' fault, not mine)" I think this speaks to a broader trend of people being unwilling to blame the direct source of toxicity. The whole idea of groups being "set up" is similar. It's victim blaming to uphold the illusion that if you do all the right things, you can avoid the ire of the mob.
Wow yes, you've written out the point I've been circling around in my head throughout this whole debate!!! Thank you! Not all Kpop fans are going to love very Kpop idol, that's fine. What's NOT fine is harassing them because they don't meet your personal, subjective standards. As someone who sings and cares a lot about vocal ability but also adores Sakura, this is something I've been thinking about a lot recently.
This comment is so well-written that I’ll be referring to it in the future. It’s honestly a very self-centered view to say that “because Idol A doesn’t meet MY expectations, they shouldn’t be allowed to do what they do without criticism.” Even if the criticism is not blatantly disrespectful, people forget to consider whether or not it’s even necessary or needed for reasons beyond having an idol cater to your every expectation.
yeah, I agree. I also struggle to understand how someone who doesn’t put a lot of weight onto talent is dehumanizing idols. maybe I’m just not seeing it, but I feel like I actually see more dehumanization from the other side. for example, on one of your previous videos somebody left a comment that idols who can’t sing are “faulty products.” isn’t that dehumanizing? a lot of people aren’t offering healthy criticism, they’re just being downright mean, and I feel like THAT is what is dehumanizing. it frustrates me a lot because I feel like a lot of kpop fans forget/ignore that idols are indeed people too who deserve respect, regardless of how untalented you think they are.
Lmao @ the "Yapper of the Year" sequence 😂 THE SAGA CONTINUES I continue to be mindblown that this is somehow controversial. 😂 Also, edit to add that I couldn't possibly agree with you any harder about NMIXX's lack of recognition. Talent clearly is not the sole driving force behind popularity or they'd be the undisputed champs of 4th gen.
I found this whole debate discussion very interesting, but I also think it’s just because I’ve been a fan of K-pop for really long time I was like 11 years old when I discovered it because of my older sister, it was the one thing that we had in common having such a huge age gap, which was 12 years so I grew up watching second third and fourth and fifth and idol crop off the way that the industry has changed in K-pop and everything but I do feel like sometimes people forget that yes I think it’s more of just basic skills you have to have but you have to have a certain type of vibe and you have to be marketable but also I feel like people forget that sometimes it really is just if you can bring people in you will be in a group group. I also think that there are outliers in my opinion I feel like Sakura is an outlier, because of the fact that she was a JP idol for 10 years she talked about the fact that, even when she was part of AKB48, they had tried giving her vocal lesson she just does not have a really strong talent when it comes to singing if she does not and she never has had great vocal, but she knows how to put on a shell. She is a performer through and through she just isn’t a vocal performer and she knows how to draw peoples attention. She knows how to draw in a crowd and I feel it we always see in K-pop. There will be someone who pops up and there’s normally maybe one or two of them every generation where they don’t have Strong talent in certain aspects, but they’re the type of people where they clearly were born to be seen to be honest stage people to pay attention to them. And I feel like that’s exactly where she falls under. She knows what she’s doing. She’s been in the industry for over a decade. She bought a men’s popularity to AK 48 as someone who actually was a fan and still is of the 48 franchise and have seen and watch many girls come and graduate. She was definitely one of the more successful members in terms of people being absolutely in love with her Because she just has that factor and I feel like that’s something that a lot of people forget about when it comes to K-pop is sometimes you have an it factor and that’s why you get scouted that’s why they want you you have that special something that makes you one very marketable, but you were clearly just made to be a celebrity. Not to mention, I always feel like whenever fans argue over this it’s such a mute argument, because we have groups that have existed and still do that are so criminally underrated so criminally forgotten about people do not promote them. They don’t have as many fans as they have, they should have, and they are literally vocalist. They are filled with nothing but people who are stupidly talented at singing . They are trained professionals. They can literally sing circles around some of the more popular idol groups, and they are still K-pop idol, but no one is listening to them as much as they should be. No one is promoting them as much as they should be. Their fan bases aren’t big as they should be and they kind of just proves the point that no it’s not about talent because we have those talented groups where if you really want to hear a bunch of people who can sing their asses off you can go stand those groups but they don’t because even as fans I feel like people understand it’s more than just talent that makes an idol or an idol group shine, but they refuse to acknowledge that.
YES THEY DO NEED TO SING WHY IS THAT EVEN A QUESTION. Theyre called idols as in they can do all of it profficiently. Obviously thats too high of an expectation but atleast they should be able to hold their own on stage. Like what the hell is your entire career if you cant sing in a song
(tw Long response is long) I agree with a lot of points made in this video, although I wish it wasn’t so since the KPOP landscape atm is just straight up depressing. In her defense, a lot of Olivia Rodrigo’s naysayers don’t like her because of her image; People are super quick to write off anything a teenager likes and Olivia haters always say that they dislike her because they think she writes songs targeted towards teens…which is why I feel like this video is treading into “are KPOP songs actually good” territory lol. I would like to point out real quick that it also shows that people genuinely don’t know anything about vocal talent on a strictly technical basis. Everyone is quick to call Adele a vocalist when honestly she doesn’t bring anything new to the table on that front. Adele sings WAY more safely now after her surgery, but it’s clear that she’s a cursive singer. What makes Adele stand out is her songwriting capabilities and how well she can resonate with an audience. …Anyway, liking a group’s music despite the fact idols never really write or produce their own songs is genuinely one of the biggest reasons I think that people are ok with how untalented KPOP idols are vocally other than the parasocial relationship. What people don’t understand is that KPOP idols are here to just be the face of said music like the animated characters in The Gorillaz. It’s difficult to get a group like XG who are willing to not only admit that from the very beginning, but to be openly proud of the music they’re pushing. It’s why their identity is so cohesive, there’s a genuine creative vision that they actually get to participate in unlike the vast majority of groups these days. Do I still think KPOP idols should meet bare minimum requirements for a clean live performance? Absolutely. However, I agree that Sakura should not be held 100% accountable for her poor vocal skills when she meets the requirements that the industry demands of her honestly. I just hope for all our sakes that people take this as a sign that we need to be more conscientious about the media we consume since it’s unfair to idols in general. Companies know that their idols will never be able to go solo or that they HAVE to join a subunit in order to stay in the business since they can’t sing an entire song, perform, or produce music on their own. They are setting idols up for failure and they know it.
This an example of the sad reality in Kpop. Some very talented idols don't get their deserved recognition and become successful because their company either can't or don't manage and promote them properly. While big companies who have plenty of resources don't invest much in their idols' talent because they know that they'll be successful no matter what. Talent isn't the most important in becoming successful☹️
Of course this video would show up in my algorithm 5 days later, but anyway- I really appreciate this video and your viewpoint. I was critical of your first video on the subject, which was rushed and not fully formed as a cogent defense of someone who was clearly being bullied. I will always maintain that I think Sakura is talented in so many other ways (she’s an excellent entertainer), but being able to sing needs to be something she’s able to do as a performing and recording artist. I appreciate that you brought up “talent” as THE singular greatest focus of being an idol, because I don’t think it’s THE singular greatest focus of idol music culture, nor do I think it’s ever been. The appeal of K-pop idol culture is in its prismatic nature- if it was all about the vocal talent then the physical visual appeal of the idols faces and bodies, their music video visuals, clothing, concepts, the music itself, their dancing ability, ability to be perfectly synchronized, media training, competency at variety, personality, their stage presence would not also be areas of focus in their training nor in what appeals to fans. All of these things are what idols are expected aspects of an idol’s talent outside of singing ability. I do think the more important things to execute to a higher degree are the things that relate to their performance as singers, and I personally won’t accept lowering the bar on that. I saw the fans in the twitter comments and quote rts criticizing Sakura- many of them had avis of idols who also had the same vocal ability as her, or had less stage presence, or were average at best (and kindest) dancers. What about them was acceptable to say “Imma stan that!” but Sakura had to be ripped to shreds? I want k-pop fans to be honest with themselves on this and not lean on tribalism. Don’t throw rocks when you live in a glass house. The overwhelming majority of k-pop idols sit in the “average singer” range, some are above average singers, maybe a handful and a half are vocalists, and an extreme few are powerhouse vocalists. A great deal of k-pop idols are below average, and some just aren’t singers at all (I’m not talking about the ones who’re made into rappers, I’m talking about the ones who official position says they’re some level of vocalist). Every k-pop idol doesn’t have to aspire to be a powerhouse vocalist to be a good, average singer who can pick up a mic and sound pleasing to the ear. Idols don’t have to be born with an innate talent for singing, but almost anyone can develop a talent for singing with consistent training and effort. I think there’s something to be said about companies who provide very little to zero vocal training, but k-pop fans still manage to invest in these idols/groups regardless. I believe this is something you mentioned in your first video-that singing ability is not the primary reason you’re a k-pop fan (or something to that effect, sorry if I’m getting it wrong)- and I think that is the case for the vast majority of other k-pop fans whose faves are not vocalists, powerhouse vocalists, or even above average singing level idols. Is it a wonder that vocals aren’t as much of a focus when everything else about idols is? To your point about NMIXX, they are the most vocally talented 4th gen girl group, but the music didn’t bang, and they scrambled for an identity. Then we look at Babymon in the 5th gen and the same thing is happening. Vocal talent can only do so much- the rest of whatever the idol is packaging for consumption has to be appealing too. Some of this other stuff you addressed I think is unfair projection on you. This has gone on long enough that I forgot some of the other points I wanted to make looool. Have a good day, choujimi!
Honestly when I was watching a K-pop stage for the first time(it was a 3rd gen group ntm),I said verbatim “this isn’t about talent is it?” I care A LOT about vocal talent and skill but pop music is notorious for having people excel without needing incredible vocal talent. I think it’s important to remember that vocal prowess isn’t the only skill an idol can have. Using mamamoo as an example, for as long as they’ve been leading in the industry with in terms of vocals, they’ve relentlessly criticized for their choreography. Edit: I might be going for runner up in the yapper Olympics 😔
I also have a question. I was waiting to watch to the end to see if it would be answered but it wasn't. What do you mean by the collapse of the first gen? There are so many artists that I consider genuinely talented from the era but I didn't know there was a collapse.
@@madynyembwe6173 This wasn’t the case for every artist, but a lot of 1st gen groups had a big emphasis on choreography, so it was common for the idols to lip sync during live stages, which started to fall out of favor in the late 90’s. This is part of what dissolved 1st gen kpop by the end of the 2000's, and the reason why 2nd gen groups became well-known for vocal ability - some of the earlier 2nd gen live stages didn't even have backing vocals
I will never understand the comparing of groups with talent either but I think it's important to note that while Sakura doesn't have to be the best vocalist she shouldn't drag down her group. Granted she isn't the only one doing this but its unfair for members like Chaewon and Yunjin that can hold a tune
I would like to add during aespa's savage era their encore stages were highly praised cause for such a difficult song and unimportant stage they were singing high notes and trying hard to be heard over the bad mic set up. They barely sounded different from the studio version. And as for le sserafim, the girls are overworked and they dance very hard so its understandable they sound tired during encores. Easy choreo had them flying and popping and these performances are not just one take, its multiple so that shows can choose the best takes.
Honestly, I feel like this should've been the first video but at least we r here now. I hope those who, like myself, saw the first and or second video and git rlly upset and spoke abt it, see this one as well. It seems the first 2 have been put out prematurely and the issue wasn't ur points but the explanation of them. I'm glad u made this video, and I'm glad I watched it bcuz I was genuinely worried that people would take some of your points and RUN with them, just creating an even less enjoyable state for Kpop.
Conocí a el kpop en la 3era GENERACIÓN, me acostumbré a la calidad de artistas como BTS y mamamoo, es raro ver grupos que no pueden cantar. pero supongo que es por eso que son llamados idolos y no cantantes. me gusta la performance de muchos grupos de la 4ta generación, pero ya saben, es un poco raro ver que al final del día no pueden cantar su propia canción bien. supongo que son mas que todo bailarines y performeadores.
Me pasa lo mismo. Como Exo-L y ReVeLuv que soy, estoy acostumbrada a buenos vocales, armonías, puentes y canciones de más de 3 minutos de duración, y realmente me gustan las canciones de la nueva generación... Pero realmente es decepcionante que no puedan cantar sus propias canciones, más que nada por el hecho de que después reciben hate masivo por ello y sus empresas no hacen nada para proteger a esos idols.
@@MikiAweona374 también me gusta mucho red velvet y siento, sinceramente que ningún grupo ha podido acercarse a lo que son como cantantes. Es bastante decepcionante ver que los ídolos que tienen buenas canciones no pueden cantarlas bien del todo, si siento que es culpa de las empresas, además de todo esto también siento que le han quitado prioridad a la necesidad de APRENDER a cantar, no parecen tomar clases, se ven demasiado cansados y sus voces fallan en muy poco tiempo de trabajo. Eso no pasaba en tan poco tiempo con grupos de la 3era generación como red velvet, bts, mamamoo, exo, etc que tenían buenos cantantes y una resistencia envidiable. Lo de hoy verdaderamente decepcionante.
you hit the nail on the head with this one, Choujimi. A comment I've seen a few times now is along the lines of "if you enjoyed their performance then I don't want to know you/be friends with you because you don't like being truthful" like...I'm sorry what? What in the world are you actually saying? Why can't anybody just let us enjoy something for what it is?
i feel like concept and the type of music is so important because i like mamamoo and they are definitely super talented and skilled idols but they aren't my favorite group
12:00 and thats what I think happens if you stan the industry as a whole more that being a fan of different artists who happen to be in the same industry/company/events
The job of an idol, like any employee. is to bring some value to the company in exchange for compensation. How the idol does this is in their job description, which varies as you said. However, in nearly all job descriptions, there is performing, which often includes singing. If Sakura's only job was to sing, then she would've never been hired. Her value lies in things liek her established fanbase, which makes it easier to get fans to pay for things. However, her job description still includes singing (though not necessarily being the main or lead vocalist), which is in the job description for most idols, exceptions may have rapping instead (and unlike singers, idol rappers are almost always criticized). Her singing and dancing is going to be how most fans will interact with her (concerts, streaming and CDs, shows) rather than say visual aspects (modeling, magazines, ads), which are things that her label may also value more than her singing. So it is a fair expectation, if you are primarily watching someone sing and dance, to be competent in those areas even if it's not the primary reason that they are hired since they are still paid to do those things.
everything is well said!! thank you for mentioning those who deeply care about the performing arts. i'm a musician with perfect pitch, so it especially bothers me when an idol can't sing. (that intro is s-tier btw)
My standard is that the groups should at least be able to sing their own songs to at least 80% completion while standing still i.e. encore stages. Completely understand if the focus is on performance/dance over vocals but ultimately they're idols the job is to sing AND dance. They can focus on one but they can't completely be failing at the other. Also most of the groups that "aren't great vocalist" will do better if they had more targeted training. But training means less time doing promotion.
Many kpop stans do not care about talent but like ro pretend to care to look like they're so smart for being able to criticise an idol's abilities. You're also very right about Mamamoo and Nmixx, they sound so very good. I advice kpop stans to just let themselves be entertained, you do not need to think or say too much. If you don't like what one group gives you, quietly move on to the ones whose abilities you prefer. It's never that deep. You can always unstan quietly. Stop hurting idols with your words when you don't even like to watch them perform.
Any time people bring this argument up, I point them to what girls in Produce 48 said about how they view being an idol as different to being a singer, and if you want to say "that's just in Japan" then I'll point you to how idol rappers have been treated during Unpretty Rapstar and Show Me The Money. The girls during that show essentially said their belief was that idols are to entertain, not to be perfect vocalists, else all great singers would be idols (and idols who were good singers would just be singers.) Being an idol, unfortunately perhaps, isn't ever really about the singing. It's a business where being marketable is your biggest asset, and a girl with ten years in the business and millions of fans before she's even in your group is a way bigger asset than a nobody who's able to sing well. And even within the second generation, there was so many times you'd hear "Goo Hara isn't talented, Hyoyeon isn't talented." Let's all not act like "Britney Spears isn't able to sing" wasn't a talking point for years. It's the same argument we've been having for years and years and years within the "pop" genre. I also wish some people would seek to watch Sakura before LE SSERAFIM too. The songs are in entirely different styles and ranges than she has been singing for her entire life, even within IZ*ONE most songs were a lot higher and she had short lines. Performing with tens to literally hundreds of fellow idols is very different to performing alongside four members. She has improved MASSIVELY through her idol life and will no doubt keep improving (especially her dance ability) if people give her time to do that.
at the end of the day, i'm not gonna stop liking sakura no matter what ppl say. i like watching her perform and i like listening to her lines in iz*one/lsrfm songs. i get if other kpop stans don't agree but like you were saying towards the end, i mostly see the kpop stans with bully tendencies taking their chance to hate on sakura and act superior to other kpop fans also i think bc i'm a third gen fan, it's normal to me to have weak vocalists in the group. that's why there's main, lead and subs. ofc sub vocalists, especially ones who were also the visual, got hated on for being fillers. but this really isn't some new phenomenon that sakura started, it's not that dramatic
My problem with NMIXX is their songs 😫. The “change up” parts are too jarring and take me out of the song. It makes me want to fast forward through that part and get back to the original song. 😢
Nmixx literally grew into theri music dawg, they literally now have good transitions😂. Its either you straight up don't like them & still insist on listening to their other songs or your standards just can't grasp another music not being baltimore.
i agree a lot, but also i have a slight different point of view about the first argument. i don't think kpop was ever about talent in any generation, at least not solely, because there's always been a fair share of untalented people on each generation (and i would extent that same argument to pop music in general) and we are just clouded with nostalgia. just because more talented idols debuted it doesn't mean that the untalented ones stopped getting away with it, it's actually the opposite because the way that the kpop industry works makes room for that. what seem to fly over people's heads on that discussion is the fact that the kpop industry sells groups, those are not individual singers, it's collective effort, so one member will compensate the flaws of the other and vice-versa. having a group were everybody is all-rounder it's one in a million type of situation, no matter how much the companies try to sell their groups as such. the members need to have different skill sets to fit on a certain archetype and public persona, THIS is the product, not the talent alone, and that has been true for most of pop music's history. no matter how much talented you are if you are not selling anything else apart from that, as far as capitalism is concerned. that's why i never paid no mind to really bad singers on a group if there was a couple of really good ones in the same band, if the person is bringing something to the table, whether a different type of talent or archetype, then i never actually worried about that. every member, more often than not, is gonna add something to the chemistry of the group regardless of their talent. and to me, THAT is what kpop is about: the harmony between a collect of people and what each one of them represents, this is the main appeal, at least to me.
honestly when it comes to kpop and talent, it's nice that someone is talented, but I don't care about your talent if I don't like your music, I listen to what I like
I do agree with "idols are not just singers or dancers/rappers" when it comes to people calling idols 'dozens'. A lot of times those dozens are visuals, faces of the group, or more variety show focused. Being talented with bringing popularity and sponsorships to the group and being an entertaining personality are valid skills that kpop companies are also going to be considering when they form the lineup for a group especially since variety shows and CFs play a huge role in promoting to the Korean general public and idol's personalities are a central part of their appeal. Acting too cuz I was seeing stans on twitter pretending bomi from apink was irrelevant just bc 'shes only famous in korea' or nugu bc only kdrama fans would know her when those kdrama celebs are more relevant and well known to the korean gp than many of their favs. I do still believe that idols should be able to sing though, it doesn't have to be very good but even variety focused idols in the past were decently stable with the few lines they got. On the other hand the newer gen of fans are a lot more focused on 'all rounders' and dozens when I feel like with older groups people were more okay with acknowledging that some members were just there to be funny and popular? It could be the rise in survival shows that made everyone hypercritical on what skills members bring to the table or when companies started forgoing position labels to make them all all-rounders idk
I think that's the thing, i would the skills needed to be an idol fit kura a lot, especially considering her many years of entertaining others in Japan 💙💙
As much as I like le sserafim I admit that there vocals aren't that great, they do great as performers but they still need a lot of training. The whole vocal training system of hybe should be criticized. Just because you have a loyal support of the fans don't give you the right to present unpolished vocals and later auto tune the f*** out of it. Otherwise the group from hybe will be known as just someone who gave viral song once upon a time. It hampers the longevity of their career. I myself never defend sakura for her vocals like after 13 years if you still need to learn from the bottom then,with all due respect choose acting/modeling. The top management of hybe should seriously look into their vocals training system, and what are they teaching. They are called idol singers, not idol dancers. If dance is the body then singing is the soul of idol industry.
Im one of those ppl that dont rlly favour sakura because of her singing incompetence. But hearing you talk abt your opinion so openly (and warmly?) was so refreshing. I recently got into kpop and definitely use it for the escapism aspect, and have avoided interacting with other ppl bc its so intense. but hearing someone strongly opinionated, but also sensibly kind abt it, i def have been looking at sakura in a different light.
lol I love the intro, it's so funny It's crazy how people hate on kpop idols as a way of criticism but most of the time they don't really care about the issue at all. they just feel the need to degrade other idols to make their favs look better. Idols should know how to sing! but just bc they can't hold a note doesn't make them less of an artist! being an idol it's much more than singing. Also ,I wish people were more kind. If u don't like an idol, just don't watch them, don't listen to their music, ignore them. If u think ur favs are better then just praise your favs 🙏🙏
14:20 i think it could be said like that IF this was 2017/2019 when kpop just started being known by the western. But we already have BTS, Blackpink, other idols and even other Asian artist like NIKI or Rich Brian that yes, we need to be taken seriously. I think this argument also came from Korean prideful mentality. I mean there’s a readon why hierarchy is such an important aspect in their social life too
I am more of a casual fan.If Kpop was all about the talent,those same people who say that wouldn't be kpop fans. They would be listening to something like progressive jazz fusion and opera. Let's look at 2nd generation.Since it was because of the talent that it grew. These "all about the talent" people are really going to tell me a song like Gee(one of the greatest kpop songs of all time)is the showcase of pure talent and skill? They going to tell me this is the epitome of vocal and dance ability and skill. If kpop is all about the talent,we should be able look back and analyze every kpop star or potential kpop star and say that only the most talented individuals went to the top.We have to be able to say that no one who was super talented ever got rejected. Also have these " if this were any other job" people ever been out in the real world?
I would say i agree with some people on the globalisation in kpop like kpop songs have become more "Western" to some extent i feel after the globalisation of kpop from the 3rd gen changed the viewpoints of kpop due to western music fans bcs some western singers are horrible while kpop was more "focused" on talent before the western influence changed the stance on talent in the industry
Same. I don't get how saying you don't care whether an idol is a good vocalist or not, is disrespectful to artists who put in a lot of effort to sing well. It's a self explanatory statement that people are taking and attaching their own feelings and meanings to. You celebrate both the idols who excel in vocals and those try their best, so it's strange that people are attaching a meaning to what you're saying when thats not your stance. I too take an interest in Kpop as a hobby and find that it's not something to be taken seriously, but unfortunately, it's the nature of the inter-webs and netizens to take things like this too seriously. Having said that, I really commend you on how maturely and professionally you've handled all this. I am learning a lot and from you and the way in which you handle things like this. Great video Chouj, it's as long as my videos are haha! but honestly, it was necessary. Some things require a delicate touch and a lot of explanation, and you did a great job with all of that as always. P.S the epic intro really had me rolling haha! 🤣 I loved it! EXO's Kai is literally one of my absolute favorite vocalist. He may not be a top tear vocalist, but I've always loved that man's voice, so in the intro, when Kai grabs the award, you pretty much said what your stance is on vocals without even saying it. It was Chef's kiss. Keep cookin Chouj!🧑🍳 🫶🩵
I think now more than ever Kpop fans "feel" kpop is as important; Therefore setting themselves up for failure--- They were idols from the beginning trained to do so, not singers or dancers yet a mixture of both so the line fades as to how talented they need to be in each arena due to subjective outlook. Yet basic singing or the vocal ability of a vocalist should not be overlooked is where I come from--- Sakura doesn't even deliver that and it's not diminishing her other improvements in dance and stage presence. It seems like just with an idol who has a pretty face & likable onscreen persona fans are willing to defend them viciously, while it's not a surprise, it makes the conversation very stunted "shes improved and worked hard", "she never promised to be the best vocal" are regressive generalized and extreme arguments( can be applied for all)
Personally for me the purpose of a group is for members to cover each others faults so not everyone has to be a great singer. Sakura was bulled for her vocals since pd48 yall and I applaud her for still pushing through and debuting again. I hate that people use her as an example that kpop vocals are bad and I hate that they relentlessly bully her for it. We learned nothing from Sulli and continue to push these idols into bad mental states.
The problem with the whole talent Argument for me is, the way we are acting as if there are a limited number of spots that if an idols isnt the best at anything they are taking that spot from somebody more talented who deserved it more. Almost as if the entire industry is a huge survival show
Unpopular opinion : NMIXX sings so well, but they are way more group who sing better than them but are a way more popular group who can't hold a note. And yes, being a K-pop idol is more than singing, but one doesn't stop another... i mean, look at all idols who do more fanservice who belt more than Sakura ?? People love to say "tes, but i jpop they're closer to fan" no AKB48 or all group 48 are. The fact that we're accepting lacking idols as if Miss A or SNSD never done more fanservice 4th gen ever did. SNSD, BTS, 2NE1, BLACKPINK, EXO, Wonder girls, and Twice fought in the west to show that K-pop isn't only about pretty gay faces who just dance. They showed that K-pop was diverse and had great singers, but if now we have to be satisfied for the minimum just because idol is a lot of thing well... fuck that. Cause those girl only have high school diplomas, and thanks to us, they live their life. Free rent, free food, free training, people producing and writing songs for them, choreography made for them. Thank to us, they're living and can't even try to just sing right and prefer calling people out, saying, "we made it look easy" when they had easy like... Kpop was always about singing and the fact that yall are trying to speak over Korean fans and kpop fans saying "oh but being idol is more than singing" I'm like- go back to yall came from. Asian music was never taken seriously, and now that pioneers have given them visibility, they make a song as if they paved their own way like
The only groups who can sing better than NMIXX are mostly groups from 1st-3rd gen where you literally have over 4 skilled vocalists. BUT in 4th gen, they literally have NO competition or whatsoever. 5th Gen just started & there's no main vocalist who can compete on the same level as Lily & Haewon. Sullyoon & Kyujin are STEADILY improving time to time so yes, NMIXX is still untouchable when it comes to vocals. Not even AESPA, BAEMON nor Purple Kiss can hold a candle near them.
The thing is with technology and such it is easier to have this whole thing, especially these prerecorded "live" Performances, imagine trying to record a track with breath in the studio and then play them with the backtrack at the same time to seem live. Ypu could do that with the technology from like 10 years ago
About the "what if its a different job" argument I think that it doesn't matter if you're talented at your job, if the company isn't making money you're gonna be fired anyways. In Kpop as an industry profits rule so if people buy albums and concerts tickets then there's nothing wrong. Kpop is more than just stage performances, and sakura's vocal ability isn't making le sserafim sales any lower, so why criticise her lack of talent when her job is doing good, not great, but its doing its purpose that is making money for hybe. Fans can expect a better performance? Yes. But is a good performance the only reason why this industry is so big? No. Is good performance the only reason why people listen to kpop? Also not.
For sure, these folks should not be shamed or attacked for not being a good singer/dancer/performer. However, should we praise mediocrity, though? Like your profession is to sing/dance/perform you should be able to do that somewhat well. Especially, if you've gone through training. This is looking at both kpop and western pop music, btw.
This vid + many other vids you made definitely let me learn a lot of admirable qualities bout yourself such as your ability to make jokes when appropriate, debating bout the sides and opinions that aren't popular, and singlehandedly being one of the kindest people ever 💙 Luv ya bestie (well i hope i can be your bestie haha)
Just watched a bit before bed so sorry if i repeat a point said later, but this is not just Kpop though. Pop and music is also not all about talent or always just about talent. Someone incredibly talented could be niche and relatively unknown while someone with barely half the talent or none at all could be going viral. It's never one dimensional, ever.
the intro had no right to be this funny
i think newjeans & nmixx are two opposing examples of talent not being everything within kpop. music, marketing, & branding is. nmixx has been coined as one of the most talented groups in 4th gen, but they're not as popular due to jyp's choices. whereas newjeans aren't necessarily the most talented in the industry rn, but they're the most popular due to ador's choices.
+another thing, i rlly hate when ppl say "groups like (insert underrated kpop group here) should be more famous", but they hardly ever go out of their way to engage with said groups.
also this isn't shade towards the newjeans members, ador's creative team & mhj has been praised countless amount of times as opposed to the members whereas the nmixx members have been immensely praised for their talent as opposed to jyp's creative team who "constantly do them dirty"
i also think newjeans are more talented than kpop stans give them credit for
True that, what I realise the most about popularity in Kpop is that most of the time it's because of the capitalistic marketing these companies must do to push their artists towards that popularity
Great reflection point :>>>>
Exactly like songs matter you can have totally basic and average vocal skills and still be the most popular. There's is reason why every music reality show winner doesn't become a great singer in future. Taylor Swift is a big example of that. She is average vocalist but her song writing, stage presence, performance, lyricism are on another level. BUT YOU DO NEED TO HAVE AT LEAST THE BASIC SKILLS LIKE TAYLOR HAS. Taylor still gets hated for not being a vocalist like ariana or beyonce, Taylor's live vocals skills are the bare minimum required to be a singer, MANY KPOP IDOLS DON'T EVEN MEET HER STANDARDS (like sakura)
Ngl. I acknowdlege Nmixx' talent. They wre amazing but their song as so boring that I can listen to it 😢 on the other hand, NewJeans songs are amazing and the girls have beautiful vocal colors.
@@annanowak9620nmixx has offered MORE variety genre wise & vocal wise😭 its already 2024 & they grow a lot into their music & saying that about nj's music just proves that you see a generic pop song offering little to non existent variety vocals is a standard of good song & good group.
8:25 you’re so real for this!!! Needless to say, I’m never shutting up about Nmixx😂
What this trilogy has taught me about you is that you’re someone who’s willing to hear different sides and perspectives while staying true to your own beliefs
I’ve recently made a video on this encore stage situation; I think if we want to prioritise talent (or vocals) in kpop then focusing on lifting up those who deserve appreciation in this matter instead of targeting and bringing down those who lack in this area is pretty good way to go.
Ur competitors would stand no chance in a #1 nmixx fan competition! 😭❤❤
Love ur videos btw!!
i agree with basically all the points in your video. from what i've seen, discussions of different idols' vocal abilities is 95% of the time just brought up during fanwars in parasocial individuals. people want their idol to feel superior and the capability to hold a note is an indicator of how some idols are "better" than others
This whole situation also started because the popular twt say “can’t believe SM give up their vocals to this” cuz there’s rumor Hybe gonna buy SM’s stock market. And then SM company stan got triggered and then it’s SM stan VS Hybe stan and then the whole community tuned into the discussion and here we are
I kind of question individuals that view less talented idols and their singing ability as "dragging down" the rest of the industry, when the inverse has happened in the western pop industry. There are plenty of bad singers in the western pop landscape but, you always tend to hear about the more talented performers and singers, the Beyonce's, the Usher's, the Ariana Grande and Bruno Mar's of the world. I'll admit there are radio friendly tunes that are performed by average at best vocalists but those tend to be few and far between. Like Olivia Rodrigo dominates the radio and, she's a great singer imo, same for Taylor Swift, I don't love her music but I'll admit she's a great singer, thus she garners more attention. Maybe stans see lesser talent and are worried that Kpop will fall down a similar path the 1st generation did but they can circumvent that themselves by just propping up talented idols instead of bringing less talented idols down. Like do we not realize the power we have as a community? Did the Loona situation teach us absolutely nothing?
Yeah. Going as far as saying a person drags down a whole industry is just straight up hate. Concluding a person can't sing well is one thing and sharing hopes for improvement is another. But saying someone disgraces a WHOLE group of others for lacking in one department is kind of wild. As if all of us are perfect in everything or something.. (not!) 😬
Maybe because people used to get clowned on when they like kpop? I never experience this honestly, but I’ve heard some people did. And if they did, I need them to know that you shouldn’t put your value on idols. Idols are not you. One idol doesn’t represent your whole community. We have passed that honestly. Many idols and even Asian artist are taken seriously now. So I don’t think one idol reputation will ruin an entire industry
@@margarete5920 that clowning exists because kpop has the same image justin bieber and 1D have which is people think it’s smth only teenage girls like so it’s automatically bad, topped off with a layer of racism. nothing to do with kpop idols’ talent or lack thereof.
For better or for worse, there's a reason they're called idols and not singers
Wait ‘till you hear that the idols’ job is to rap, dance AND SING
@@billliealimno it’s not it’s to perform lol or be marketable
@@RasendoriXProduction no because it depends what type of performance your doing and most idols don’t even sing live
So in your logic if someone ask me help i shouldnt help them bcs its not my job tnx
@@armyswhoblinkonce2711then they shouldn’t make music. Just perform to existing music then if you aren’t gonna sing and just dance. That’s what dancers and performers do. I feel the industry started out as having singers but now it’s all about looks over singing.
I appreciate the fact that you fully dedicated yourself to understanding others while still representing your genuine thoughts and feelings. That, in my opinion, is very respectable, and I think few people would be able to do it this well.
I do have to wonder why the kpop fandom is so dedicated to not being the kpop fandom. Yes. Most individual fandoms can be toxic as hell, but the larger fandom at least should be something you enjoy. You're allowed to have negative opinions, but why would you pick up a Shakespeare play if you don't like Shakespeare- or even just reading period? You wouldn't. And you have a free pass from me to skip Le Sserafim on any playlist they show up on. It's that easy.
The other thing that gets me is how this is the same fandom that freaks out if there are similarities in two music videos or something. Kpop groups can't explore similar concepts because that's plagiarism, but Sakura is singlehandedly ruining the reputation of kpop vocalists? You can't have both. Are they destined to be completely separate entities, or are their talents inexplicably bound? I'm pretty sure Twilight's apple cover was an allusion to Eve, and I can recognize that without thinking Twilight ruined any shred of importance the Bible has.
I almost put “much ado about nothing” in the thumbnail of this video, but I didn’t want to taunt anyone 😭
It seems like this is a really emotional issue for a lot of people, and represents the ugliest parasocial bonds that we can develop with the industry. The kpop community is kind of like a mirror that some people look into, and if the discussion or narrative doesn’t match what they *want to see* in the mirror, that’s where reasoning kind of goes out the window
@@choujimi the sad part is I think that a lot of the people who are upset (one way or the other) would benefit a lot from reading the lyrics to Good Bones
@@choujimi it’s a problem for this generation in general honestly. People keep putting their moral view and even image to the person on screen. We used to say Knets/Korean industry has a high standard and we need to break it but now we also fall into their perception and putting idols into the standard we want to see
i always see the argument "well it's their job." , and i totally get being frustrated with kpop idols not being the best at singing, but their job is so much more than singing. being an idol is like doing fifty things at once and balancing another fifty books on your head at the same time. i feel like some of the idols who get criticized clearly put in their best effort as well, but they get hate for that too. so tiring
Yeah. Also, to be blunt, everyone's job is to make money for their employer. An accountant needs to do math because that's the value they provide. An idol's job is to make people like them in ways that are monetizable for the company. It's not their job to be artists. It's not their job to play into boyfriend/girlfriend fantasies. It's not their job to take hate from "fans". All of this is stuff they often do, but it is not an inherent part of the job. Just as almost everyone in English Kpop discourse agrees that idols should be able to date, we can agree that other norms should change as well.
@@bopete3204 "An idol's job is to make people like them in ways that are monetizable for the company."
Exactly. Hybe wasn't concerned about Sakura's singing ability when they picked her up. They got her because she was one of the more popular members of Izone and Japan loves her, which means more people spending money.
and she can dance
i dont wana know how the world (kpop world) would burn if she couldnt@@--Canon--
EXCUSES EXCUSES. That’s because IT IS their job TO SING. If they’re gonna milk up some cash for the company, at least they should do their job properly that’s why they train for years to do singing while dancing at the same time. They trained to be in KPOP NOT Lipsync Battle, NOT KDANCE CREW
They literally market themselves as singers. How are people not going to criticize them if they’re going on stage singing songs. Thats like defending a bad actor and saying “ their job isnt suppose to be good at acting, they only have to be popular, good looking and likeable.” This is why kpop album sales are going down. Kpop is trash now
love to hear you yapp bestie, the intro is hilarius lol
Haha thank you 😭😭
IN DEFENSE OF SAKURA THE TRILOGY
As a pop fan for way longer the kpop I always had in mind that skill and arterist and marketable and popularity are different parameters.
In skills back dancers, choreographers, back vocals, back band, producers, lyricists are in general higher then the stars.
We value the whole performance not a merithocracy of skills. Not even for job application skills arent the only requirements.
Similar to a favorite movie. The protagonist actor can't hold all the film alone, the whole must work.
this Trilogy™ i believe serves as a reminder to the community that kpop means something different to everyone. the industry isn’t a monolith; so why are we expecting people to consume and perceive a multifaceted industry in just one way? it feels limiting and counterintuitive to the growth so many wish to see when we police fellow community members on their opinions of such trivial things (i say trivial bc once you break things down subjectivity is all it truly is).
To me the key is in the job description of "idol". To my understanding an idol isn't quite the same as an artist, though they can overlap. I enjoy it when an idol can sing, and respect those the skills of those that are talented, but when I tune in to an idol that really quite can't, I'm tuning in to the other aspects of the job description. Sakura has other merits that draw fans in, and those are just as valid as vocals.
I do understand people to whom vocals are a sticking point, and there's some merit to the argument that the industry will shift according to audience responce. If you want to see more vocally talented idols, buy their music and merch. Support them monetarily, and you might influence the trends. But people don't tend to put their money where their mouths are, and instead we get "discourse" which borders on bullying and doesn't really lead anywhere.
Well said.
exactly if you want to see change, don't really focus on the "untalented" idols but support talented idols like NMIXX instead. For example, if companies see that a group like NMIXX (talent) actually sells well, they will put in the effort to train their idols more and raise the idol standard with vocals, rap, dance, etc.
Imagine multiple NMIXXs popping up, of course companies will rush to fit that standard. THIS IS THE WAY
I honestly think that there needs to be at least 2 people in a group who can sing but not everyone needs to do that. There are dancers and rappers too, kpop is so much more than just singing, and talent in general. You could be the most talented group out there but if you made horrible music I wouldn't care tbh, then I'd rather listen to someone "untalented" who makes good music.
It doesn't hurt to admit someone from a group you like can't sing, it doesn't mean you're hating on them either or that they don't deserve what they have.
I think Ateez is a group that became famous partly because of how talented they are, and I think that's so deserved honestly, but I wouldn't care if they didn't make good music (which they do, really, they make amazing music).
Also I wanna thank you for being so respectful towards everyone in this video, and in general, it's really refreshing.
THE INTRO HELPPP
Yes, they should be able to carry a tune. They don't have to be at the levels of Mamamoo or SHINee, but AT LEAST have a stable tune. Wonyoung is not the best vocalist, but when she does live performance (or encore), she can hold a stable tune well.
NMIXX hasn't been doing that well because their music missed what the current market wants. They've changed their style and it's showing results.
I guess it all boils down to what you like Kpop for.
For me, I got into Kpop through Mamamoo. I liked the music, I liked the live performances, and that was always the priority for me.
So those are the things I need in an idol group.
Even with groups that have good music, if they're not actually capable of singing those songs live, it ruins the songs for me, I end up listening to it and stanning the producer.
If you're a kpop stan for something else, your priorities would be different.
I’m with you, I got into kpop in 2008 when I was in middle school. I watched ALL of the music show videos that got posted on TH-cam, and they didn’t have the vocal back tracks the same way they do today. Sometimes the vocals were rough af, but it’s always been about the ~spectacle~ I loved SHINee because they were so obviously talented, but you know, Taemin and Minho were pretty weak vocally. I still stanned, they’re people I found entertaining, it was always exciting to see what they’d do next, but they’ve grown A LOT with all the experience they’ve had. Taemin is so vocally talented now, but I’m telling you the second gen was not all about vocal talent. Not to mention the sophistication of the dance that’s happening these days blows what was happening 10, 15 years ago out of the water. These groups and idols have lots of different types of talents, they’re always hyper critiqued. I love the idea of focusing on what you enjoy and hyping up the folks that are incredibly talented. I think generally it’s a lot healthier and more productive to pay attention to what is working and making more of that happen then attacking people who aren’t doing what you like.
yes. they should always be able to carry a tune
When JLO was boycotted in America because (allegedly) couldn't sing but completely built her career as a singer by using many other people's voice samples without giving credit. Imagine if she was a kpop idol, she probably wouldn't be boycotted like she is now. Because her fans won't hesitate to cover for her because she's pretty and good at dancing and everyone lip-syncs.
Let's be also very fair to Sakura, she does really want to do better, and it's clear from music recording videos she wants to improve. I think encouraging her to get that improvement with hard work rather than putting her down, which can be a very awful method, is much better. Being mean could create an insecurity her whole career that she is doing badly, even at times she might be doing well. I absolutely agree with how hatred is an awful way to get idols to grow in certain sectors people find lacking. I believe she has the potiental to do it, and we just need to give her a pat on the back and tell her she can do it, allowing her to go at her own pace, rather than actually pushing her forcefully, which will force her to overwork herself, and even if she might improve a lot, it'll have a lot negative consequences on Sakura mentally.
*This comment is open to any criticism, feel free to state nicely or harshly to me what you think can be proven wrong and deconstructed, I don't take it personal and do my best to see the points :)*
hi. okay so my take on the whole sakura situation is, yeah i find it disgusting since the hatred has gone to the next level. but at the same time, I can't ignore the fact that she has been in the idol industry (6 yrs in kpop + a few more years of jpop) for so long and yet she finds it hard to hit a stable note. mind u, I've been a long time sakura fan as i always wanted her to grow as an idol. fans have always been nice to her, to think she even placed 2nd in PD48. fans always thought she would get better, but unfortunately it didn't happen. since her izone days, i remember everyone was nice to her on the internet. yes obviously you aren't immune to hatred when you're a public figure, but the love from the fanbase was strong enough to overshadow the hatred. i understand vocals isn't a requirement in jpop, but in kpop it is. because if someone just dances, then that just counts as being a dancer. and idol is someone who excels in all the different parts of entertainment- singing, dancing, fan-service by interacting with fans, and idk more of somee admirable traits. it was understandable if she couldn't improve well during the izone days as she was new to kpop then and it's hard to lose a singing technique you have known for years. but now even after 6 years she faces the same issue. fans weren't even being harsh to her during the debut days of lsfm, it was when unforgiven happened and the encore performance that shocked everyone. from then on, that's when the hatred actually started. you mentioning people shouldn't put her down, but the fact that fans have always uplifted her even tho she lacked in vocals that is something to remember too. also, ik it obviously isn't the girls fault but, soumu literally disbanded gfriend for lsfm to debut. now now disbanding a whole vocally talented group, to now having a member struggle with hitting notes, I don't think people are really gonna like it. plus not to mention, the release of documentaries after every controversy on how sakura is struggling. yes i understand it is depressing, the whole idol life is depressing trying to impress people. but dhe should atleast consider the many other trainees who couldn't debut in lsfm so that she could debut (idk how many trainees were on thr lineup so I'm just assuming there obviously were a lot since soumu had many trainees). all i want for her is to take a long break from the idol life. to even realise if she wants to be an idol. i am in no way shaming her choices but, if she struggles so much and is depressed in the idol life i really think she should quit it. why choose a life that is so hard on you? saying this as i myself am a victim. i chose engineering in computer science as my major in college. i struggled my 4 yrs with so many backlogs. i loved maths and learning about computers since i was a child. i thought computer science was the career for me. but choosing it, i reached a time i thought of ending my life. i graduated with a 5.4 gpa out of 10. it was hell for me. but then i got a job as an analyst in a company and i realised yes i love math and computers, but the course i chose was wrong. and now i am happy. i think this is what sakura needs. and new perspective and a change.
@@mckha.b Absolutely, and I mean encourage her as in either give criticism or be nice to Sakura, I don't think people pointing out her vocals not being as developed as they should be is a bad thing, until it gets insulting, like most the exact thing most "critics". I definitely do think that the amount of self-doubt she's carrying might be a sign that her career could not be right for her. Of course, maybe she does want to, but she should really try and figure it out for herself. I totally wish her luck.
@@mckha.b P.s. I loved reading this, thank you SO MUCH
Quietly wheezed at nearly 4 AM in the morning over the intro lmaooo
should kpop be about talent & should groups w/ "inherently" more talent have more recognition? yes, but it'll never work like that. despite sakura's "lack of vocal talent" there's a reason hybe chose her. despite hyewon's "lack of talent", there's a reason she debuted. visuals, personality, etc. the industry is unfair. i hate it just as much as everyone else, but what can you do?
Leta not dorget about star quality or charisma. Not everyone idol has this to succeed ;)
Yeah you can be Uber talent but if you’re ugly and boring then sorry 🤷🏽♀️
I can't pinpoint it but there is a reason that Sakura is considered one of greatest idols off all time even before having anything to do with kpop.
Great video, Choujimi. And that opening... XD. I see what you did there lol. Keep up your great work!
Haha thank you!!
She doesn't have to be singer but decent enough tho the defense saying well shes idol not a singer. Singing is still part of her job yes her job isn't to be singer there yunjin for that but she needs to be able to hold a note.
You actually gave me some insight on this whole situation. Thank you for this video, this made me really think about everything and how I went about it as well.
the editing skills go crazy. nice one choujimi
It’s not only Sakuras fault that she doesn’t sing the best. Hybe vocal training and the fact that she used to be in a group where vocals were something that were not focused on back in Japan. Tho not her fault, it is the bare minimum. It is her job whether people like it or not. Tho the job is called idol, singing, dancing, modeling AND performing are in the job description. If hybe/sakura don’t want to improve her vocals, that’s their choice if they want to or not, but fans can’t really be mad when they get criticized. And I’m not saying that hate is warranted to her because criticism and hate aren’t the same.
She can sing decently though so idk what these people are complaining about. She even improved IMMENSELY if we compare it to her HKT/AKB days but people would rather focus on what gifted singers have that she lacks than what she had already worked on through sheer effort.
But in the end the hate against Sakura reeks of xenophobia. Fighting against it on the internet won't solve a thing but supporting her and others who receive unwarranted hate will work wonders for these idols
you know nothig about jpop
@@wzwzwzshe can sing decently on a good day but overall she’s really weak. kpop stans need to accept that their faves simply might not be good at smth.
The intro 😭
What I find hilarious, or a bit weird, is that the word talent in itself, is a type of objectification of the person/idol. Because talent, is something that you are born with, an innate ability, or predisposition for something that underline the actual hard work of a person. Just because someone is more talented than someone else doesn't mean they work less. As it is the case for Sakura, I think we all agree that she is an extremely hard worker, but maybe that hard work didn't go to singing. Or maybe she just has a harder time with singing than any other skill.
It actually doesn't matter the amount of hard work, people don't enjoy a product because they were a lot of hard work put into it.
What I mean with the focus on talent being a certain type of objectification is this: justifying why you like someone based on abilities or characteristics, for example "i like her, because she has a beautiful voice" (like Swan from Purple Kiss) or "because she's beautiful" is certainly valid, but also an reduction of the entirety of a person. In real life, and not idol-culture, parasocial relationships and any celebrity-fan type of relationships, we like a person for the person. Them being good at singing isn't the reason why, because we don't NEED a reason.
i love how you managed to figure out your opinion and improve on it and yap throughout the three videos rather than just sticking with one thing
I’ve never been more excited for a video from the first few minutes
I think the best solution is to just not support something you don't like. You don't like Sakura's vocals? Don't listen to the songs, don't buy the merch and just don't do anything which can benefit them financially. When the company realises their sales have dropped compared to the last comeback, they'll definitely look up the reason why. It's hard yes, but a group like Loona proved it's possible so why can't we do that? At the end their whole career depends on us fans, we do have the power to change things.
the fact that "they're idols not singers" is people's excuse for why it's completely fine for idols to be completely incapable of singing their own damn songs is ridiculous. if they can't sing they shouldn't be releasing music. simple.
This is such a weird POV to me. Do you think that, in general, if someone isn’t good at something/struggles to improve, then they shouldn’t do it? Or does this only apply to singing? Why? If people enjoy what they’re making, and others also take joy in their creations, why is that so bad? Because money/fame is involved? As long as the end product is good, I personally don’t care what it took to get there.
@@addyvalencia wow, so bold for someone who have such low standards. I bet some of the group you stan are performance based groups who can't sing foe shit & classify a tiktok quality song as a "good song". You know, the barely 2 minute upbeat song paired with lackluster surface level lyrics & the empty chorus that relies on the repetition & beat drops. I can tell that you're easily fooled by the flashy concepts, visuals & chore more than the the music composition & vocals but yiu do you. You're really proud of your standards even if you're wrong.
@@addyvalencia yup. They're quite ignorant.
@@addyvalencia Because this isn't a hobby. It's a job. A career.
If you (Kpop fans) like live vocals then there’s plenty of groups with them. Stick to what you like and stop listening to groups you don’t like. Lsfm doesn’t have great vocals but are phenomenal performers. People need to stick to their own fandoms and stay out of others but it’s the internet people love drama.
As idols, being a great dancer while being a bad singer is still being a bad performer. Last time I checked, an idol’s job is to rap, dance ANG SING. If you’re just gonna lipsync or just dance, then why be an idol? They joined KPOP not KOREA’S BEST DANCE CREW not LIPSYNC BATTLE
"Stick to what you like and stop listening to groups you don't like." nahhhh. I still watch out to LSFM every comeback because I still want to see if their release would sound good. I was being OPEN. If I follow your (gatekeeping) advice, I wouldn't still be listening to Antifragile.
With that said, when I hear an iffy live performance to an easy note, of course I'll cringe a bit. Because I only don't want to be open, I also am kinda critical about those kind of stuff.
The peabrain haters are another story though.
Dawg😭 you're take on this topic is so stupid😂. You really just want that choreo & that tiktok quality song
@@billliealima group is a group for a reason. members cover each others behinds for things they cannot cover themselves. hence why idols like Wonyoung or Jennie(top quality idols) aren't soloist. there's also a thing called star quality? just like JYP said, Wonyoung is born to be an idol. she may not have the best dance, rap, or vocal ability, but her stage presence, charisma, and facial expressions speaks wonders. why do you think Sakura was called a top notch idol even before k-pop? some people aren't so keen on k-pop music, but find k-pop groups themselves funny or interesting. i myself love the music and the variety of idols different bubbly, shy, or tomboy personalities. why do you think idols are so fun to watch?? because they're carefully selected on not just talent, but also character. you can refine talent, but not character(less you're a psycho and fake asf). ofc it's not to say that anyone with a good personality can be an idol, which is why vocals, dance, and rap is taught. that also raps around to my other point, a group is formed of people that can combat each others weaknesses and make up for them.
if anything, k-pop idols history stems from jpop idols, they weren't able to sing all that well, but rlly brought a performance. if you rlly do love vocals so much, there are vocally specialized group like big mama if you yourself are so interested.
@@billliealim so basically in general, they can have good stage presence and are great on stage, but if they aren't the best singers, then they are just bad overall? They can check every box but one potentially so they demand less respect? I disagree. You CAN be an idol and LACK a skill. That's human and no one's perfect.
Just like how AESPAS sage presence and dance was horrible over all up until spicy maybe. So they didn't deserve to be idols then because idol have to be perfect. Even groups like nmix, fromis, and Stacy lack the stage presence that LSF have tho that can be subjective.
It's a very valid view point you have I agree. I just personally don't think that them not singing well is end all be all, similar to dancing. That's they're job you're correct, but it's only PART of it not their ONLY responsibility.
One thing I'd like to clarify is that you say the average performance skill was higher in the 2nd gen, and I'd say this is true of vocals but not performance overall. Dance and stage presence are parts of performance as well, and dance skills have definitely increased over the years while stage presence is a bit more subtle but I think doing winks and looks at certain points of the choreo has been a more recent development. The performance skill is similar, it's just directed at different aspects of live performance.
That’s funny because to me 2nd gen has way more stage presence to me because they have charisma which most recently idols don’t have at least to me
@@el972as you said "to you" that's because stage presence it's a MOSTLY subjective topic compared to singing or dancing, not every people like the same style of performing.
To praise something, you don't need to bring another thing down.
Congrats on your win, Choujimi!! 🏆🏅
Glad you could find some humor in the situation despite the hateful and disgusting comments. 🤣🤣
Having a Kpop commentary channel is not for the faint of heart.
I think there are too many people romanticizing previous gens. 2nd and 3rd gen had idols that were not the most talented but were popular. What really advanced K-pop's popularity during the 2nd and 3rd gen was the industry allowing content to be shared freely. Before I got into K-pop, I was a J-pop fan. In Japanese entertainment, almost everything is behind a paywall. This is different from K-pop, where things are easily accessible and there are fewer restrictions on what fans can share online. From then on, it began to spread. What people forget is that it spread due to the public's choice. I think what is at the heart of this debate is that people are upset they can't make everyone have the same taste as them. I'm like you. I enjoy K-pop as a hobby and I like a wide range of groups with different abilities and levels of popularity. I do not look to one group to give me everything, because that is impossible. This obsession with perfection is why everyone lip-syncs, why no one goes on variety, and why a lot of the things we miss from previous gens are no longer here. Idols are just not allowed to be human and grow. If people want to call idols artists, they need to understand that artists also have periods of growth, stagnation, improvement, and setbacks. I would like to end by saying that there are a lot of K-pop fans who only consume K-pop and don't have much real-world experience. I do not mean that as a diss, but to make a point that when people say things like, "If this were any other job, so and so would be fired", they obviously do not watch other professionals or have much experience in the professional world. Shaq can't shoot a free throw for shit, but no one would tell him he's a terrible basketball player. He has his own strengths and weaknesses just like other players and that's why they play on teams. I look at idol groups the same way. They are all teams with each member having their own strengths and weaknesses, but in the end, they all complement each other.
THIS!!! Also i've noticed that MANY of the people who are saying things like "I wish kpop would be like 2nd and 3rd gen again they were so much more talented" are always the new kpop fans who probably didn't even know kpop existed during 3rd gen.
@@Elsie-hs5jb The MR Removed videos started during late 2nd gen and I remember so many idols getting dragged for their vocals back then.
"artistic groups deserve to be celebrated but not at the cost of putting less talented groups down" THANK YOU!!!!
No matter how many excuse you give them. At the end of the day, these idols will still be in their companis studio recording room. They may be idols who do a lot of different ways to promote their career but you do know that when they guess, they're always asked what's in for their music right? No matter how many excuse you give them, as long as they're under a group & an ent company, their job will always lead them to holding a mic & using their voice. Do you see how many variety shows sk have? That's right, majority of them are all about singing compared to dancing. Idols should alwats have the foundation when it comes to vocals.
Haven't been following this discussion very closely. I'm just so incredibly tired of trying to find live clips of a song only to find that there's zero live singing or equally bad the backing track turned up to max and the live singing turned down to the faintest whisper, and then there's the fake live backtracks that are pre recorded and comes with complete with grunts and slightly more shaky vocals... just give me real live vocals and skip some of that hard choreography
Call it yapping all you want, i rlly enjoyed this video and all the good points you made. You’re a very eloquent speaker!
Imagine if live were set up like this that it is always fair and the people who work the hardest and are the most talented always have the most success and nothing else would matter like the marketing, luck, timing etc.
My Yapper of the year ❤
Okay well u actually deserved that award because hearing you yap makes my day
5:10 why is this the case?
to answer your question and reconcile the discrepancy the response to a lack of talent in idols in 1st gen vs 4th gen - i would attribute this to technological and digital developments like the rise of social media, especially tiktok and instagram (and a whole range of other platforms popular in asian countries). we see this not just in kpop but in other industries too; being a celebrity has been 'democratised' and now we have influencers. 1st gen kpop idols aspired to be talented performers, but 4th gen idols don't need to aspire to that same goal because they can easily be branded and marketed like influencers are (dance trends on tiktok/reels, personalised fan messages, idols getting personal instagram handles). kpop idols are so much more accessible than they used to be and so people don't hold them to as high standards as they would have back in the previous generations.
I like the emphasis on the word NEED because I think it's really important. When people NEED to do something, there's almost always an OR ELSE... People need food and water or else they die. People need to get to the airport early or else they might miss their flight. People need to cook ground beef well-done or else they risk food poisoning.
In this discussion, a lot of people are not specifying what the or else is. Because if people think "idols need to be able to sing or else I'm not going to be a fan of theirs" that's a totally defensible view. Nobody should be forced to stan anybody. But in practice, people are behaving as if their stance is "idols need to be able to sing or else they've broken a cosmic rule and are therefore fair targets for harassment" which is totally indefensible. And some do try arguments about respecting talent, but when they face pushback their bottom line usually seems to be "a rule has been broken (and therefore anything that follows including my reaction is the idols' fault, not mine)"
I think this speaks to a broader trend of people being unwilling to blame the direct source of toxicity. The whole idea of groups being "set up" is similar. It's victim blaming to uphold the illusion that if you do all the right things, you can avoid the ire of the mob.
Wow yes, you've written out the point I've been circling around in my head throughout this whole debate!!! Thank you! Not all Kpop fans are going to love very Kpop idol, that's fine. What's NOT fine is harassing them because they don't meet your personal, subjective standards. As someone who sings and cares a lot about vocal ability but also adores Sakura, this is something I've been thinking about a lot recently.
This comment is so well-written that I’ll be referring to it in the future. It’s honestly a very self-centered view to say that “because Idol A doesn’t meet MY expectations, they shouldn’t be allowed to do what they do without criticism.” Even if the criticism is not blatantly disrespectful, people forget to consider whether or not it’s even necessary or needed for reasons beyond having an idol cater to your every expectation.
yeah, I agree. I also struggle to understand how someone who doesn’t put a lot of weight onto talent is dehumanizing idols. maybe I’m just not seeing it, but I feel like I actually see more dehumanization from the other side. for example, on one of your previous videos somebody left a comment that idols who can’t sing are “faulty products.” isn’t that dehumanizing? a lot of people aren’t offering healthy criticism, they’re just being downright mean, and I feel like THAT is what is dehumanizing. it frustrates me a lot because I feel like a lot of kpop fans forget/ignore that idols are indeed people too who deserve respect, regardless of how untalented you think they are.
Lmao @ the "Yapper of the Year" sequence 😂 THE SAGA CONTINUES
I continue to be mindblown that this is somehow controversial. 😂
Also, edit to add that I couldn't possibly agree with you any harder about NMIXX's lack of recognition. Talent clearly is not the sole driving force behind popularity or they'd be the undisputed champs of 4th gen.
I found this whole debate discussion very interesting, but I also think it’s just because I’ve been a fan of K-pop for really long time I was like 11 years old when I discovered it because of my older sister, it was the one thing that we had in common having such a huge age gap, which was 12 years so I grew up watching second third and fourth and fifth and idol crop off the way that the industry has changed in K-pop and everything but I do feel like sometimes people forget that yes I think it’s more of just basic skills you have to have but you have to have a certain type of vibe and you have to be marketable but also I feel like people forget that sometimes it really is just if you can bring people in you will be in a group group.
I also think that there are outliers in my opinion I feel like Sakura is an outlier, because of the fact that she was a JP idol for 10 years she talked about the fact that, even when she was part of AKB48, they had tried giving her vocal lesson she just does not have a really strong talent when it comes to singing if she does not and she never has had great vocal, but she knows how to put on a shell. She is a performer through and through she just isn’t a vocal performer and she knows how to draw peoples attention. She knows how to draw in a crowd and I feel it we always see in K-pop. There will be someone who pops up and there’s normally maybe one or two of them every generation where they don’t have Strong talent in certain aspects, but they’re the type of people where they clearly were born to be seen to be honest stage people to pay attention to them. And I feel like that’s exactly where she falls under. She knows what she’s doing. She’s been in the industry for over a decade. She bought a men’s popularity to AK 48 as someone who actually was a fan and still is of the 48 franchise and have seen and watch many girls come and graduate. She was definitely one of the more successful members in terms of people being absolutely in love with her Because she just has that factor and I feel like that’s something that a lot of people forget about when it comes to K-pop is sometimes you have an it factor and that’s why you get scouted that’s why they want you you have that special something that makes you one very marketable, but you were clearly just made to be a celebrity.
Not to mention, I always feel like whenever fans argue over this it’s such a mute argument, because we have groups that have existed and still do that are so criminally underrated so criminally forgotten about people do not promote them. They don’t have as many fans as they have, they should have, and they are literally vocalist. They are filled with nothing but people who are stupidly talented at singing . They are trained professionals. They can literally sing circles around some of the more popular idol groups, and they are still K-pop idol, but no one is listening to them as much as they should be. No one is promoting them as much as they should be. Their fan bases aren’t big as they should be and they kind of just proves the point that no it’s not about talent because we have those talented groups where if you really want to hear a bunch of people who can sing their asses off you can go stand those groups but they don’t because even as fans I feel like people understand it’s more than just talent that makes an idol or an idol group shine, but they refuse to acknowledge that.
i love a self aware king 😭😭 u ate so hard tho fr
YES THEY DO NEED TO SING WHY IS THAT EVEN A QUESTION. Theyre called idols as in they can do all of it profficiently. Obviously thats too high of an expectation but atleast they should be able to hold their own on stage. Like what the hell is your entire career if you cant sing in a song
(tw Long response is long) I agree with a lot of points made in this video, although I wish it wasn’t so since the KPOP landscape atm is just straight up depressing. In her defense, a lot of Olivia Rodrigo’s naysayers don’t like her because of her image; People are super quick to write off anything a teenager likes and Olivia haters always say that they dislike her because they think she writes songs targeted towards teens…which is why I feel like this video is treading into “are KPOP songs actually good” territory lol.
I would like to point out real quick that it also shows that people genuinely don’t know anything about vocal talent on a strictly technical basis. Everyone is quick to call Adele a vocalist when honestly she doesn’t bring anything new to the table on that front. Adele sings WAY more safely now after her surgery, but it’s clear that she’s a cursive singer. What makes Adele stand out is her songwriting capabilities and how well she can resonate with an audience.
…Anyway, liking a group’s music despite the fact idols never really write or produce their own songs is genuinely one of the biggest reasons I think that people are ok with how untalented KPOP idols are vocally other than the parasocial relationship. What people don’t understand is that KPOP idols are here to just be the face of said music like the animated characters in The Gorillaz. It’s difficult to get a group like XG who are willing to not only admit that from the very beginning, but to be openly proud of the music they’re pushing. It’s why their identity is so cohesive, there’s a genuine creative vision that they actually get to participate in unlike the vast majority of groups these days.
Do I still think KPOP idols should meet bare minimum requirements for a clean live performance? Absolutely. However, I agree that Sakura should not be held 100% accountable for her poor vocal skills when she meets the requirements that the industry demands of her honestly. I just hope for all our sakes that people take this as a sign that we need to be more conscientious about the media we consume since it’s unfair to idols in general. Companies know that their idols will never be able to go solo or that they HAVE to join a subunit in order to stay in the business since they can’t sing an entire song, perform, or produce music on their own. They are setting idols up for failure and they know it.
This an example of the sad reality in Kpop. Some very talented idols don't get their deserved recognition and become successful because their company either can't or don't manage and promote them properly.
While big companies who have plenty of resources don't invest much in their idols' talent because they know that they'll be successful no matter what.
Talent isn't the most important in becoming successful☹️
Of course this video would show up in my algorithm 5 days later, but anyway- I really appreciate this video and your viewpoint. I was critical of your first video on the subject, which was rushed and not fully formed as a cogent defense of someone who was clearly being bullied. I will always maintain that I think Sakura is talented in so many other ways (she’s an excellent entertainer), but being able to sing needs to be something she’s able to do as a performing and recording artist.
I appreciate that you brought up “talent” as THE singular greatest focus of being an idol, because I don’t think it’s THE singular greatest focus of idol music culture, nor do I think it’s ever been. The appeal of K-pop idol culture is in its prismatic nature- if it was all about the vocal talent then the physical visual appeal of the idols faces and bodies, their music video visuals, clothing, concepts, the music itself, their dancing ability, ability to be perfectly synchronized, media training, competency at variety, personality, their stage presence would not also be areas of focus in their training nor in what appeals to fans. All of these things are what idols are expected aspects of an idol’s talent outside of singing ability. I do think the more important things to execute to a higher degree are the things that relate to their performance as singers, and I personally won’t accept lowering the bar on that.
I saw the fans in the twitter comments and quote rts criticizing Sakura- many of them had avis of idols who also had the same vocal ability as her, or had less stage presence, or were average at best (and kindest) dancers. What about them was acceptable to say “Imma stan that!” but Sakura had to be ripped to shreds? I want k-pop fans to be honest with themselves on this and not lean on tribalism. Don’t throw rocks when you live in a glass house. The overwhelming majority of k-pop idols sit in the “average singer” range, some are above average singers, maybe a handful and a half are vocalists, and an extreme few are powerhouse vocalists. A great deal of k-pop idols are below average, and some just aren’t singers at all (I’m not talking about the ones who’re made into rappers, I’m talking about the ones who official position says they’re some level of vocalist). Every k-pop idol doesn’t have to aspire to be a powerhouse vocalist to be a good, average singer who can pick up a mic and sound pleasing to the ear. Idols don’t have to be born with an innate talent for singing, but almost anyone can develop a talent for singing with consistent training and effort. I think there’s something to be said about companies who provide very little to zero vocal training, but k-pop fans still manage to invest in these idols/groups regardless. I believe this is something you mentioned in your first video-that singing ability is not the primary reason you’re a k-pop fan (or something to that effect, sorry if I’m getting it wrong)- and I think that is the case for the vast majority of other k-pop fans whose faves are not vocalists, powerhouse vocalists, or even above average singing level idols. Is it a wonder that vocals aren’t as much of a focus when everything else about idols is?
To your point about NMIXX, they are the most vocally talented 4th gen girl group, but the music didn’t bang, and they scrambled for an identity. Then we look at Babymon in the 5th gen and the same thing is happening. Vocal talent can only do so much- the rest of whatever the idol is packaging for consumption has to be appealing too.
Some of this other stuff you addressed I think is unfair projection on you. This has gone on long enough that I forgot some of the other points I wanted to make looool. Have a good day, choujimi!
the production quality is insane
Honestly when I was watching a K-pop stage for the first time(it was a 3rd gen group ntm),I said verbatim “this isn’t about talent is it?” I care A LOT about vocal talent and skill but pop music is notorious for having people excel without needing incredible vocal talent. I think it’s important to remember that vocal prowess isn’t the only skill an idol can have.
Using mamamoo as an example, for as long as they’ve been leading in the industry with in terms of vocals, they’ve relentlessly criticized for their choreography.
Edit: I might be going for runner up in the yapper Olympics 😔
I also have a question. I was waiting to watch to the end to see if it would be answered but it wasn't. What do you mean by the collapse of the first gen? There are so many artists that I consider genuinely talented from the era but I didn't know there was a collapse.
@@madynyembwe6173 This wasn’t the case for every artist, but a lot of 1st gen groups had a big emphasis on choreography, so it was common for the idols to lip sync during live stages, which started to fall out of favor in the late 90’s. This is part of what dissolved 1st gen kpop by the end of the 2000's, and the reason why 2nd gen groups became well-known for vocal ability - some of the earlier 2nd gen live stages didn't even have backing vocals
I will never understand the comparing of groups with talent either but I think it's important to note that while Sakura doesn't have to be the best vocalist she shouldn't drag down her group. Granted she isn't the only one doing this but its unfair for members like Chaewon and Yunjin that can hold a tune
I would like to add during aespa's savage era their encore stages were highly praised cause for such a difficult song and unimportant stage they were singing high notes and trying hard to be heard over the bad mic set up. They barely sounded different from the studio version. And as for le sserafim, the girls are overworked and they dance very hard so its understandable they sound tired during encores. Easy choreo had them flying and popping and these performances are not just one take, its multiple so that shows can choose the best takes.
Honestly, I feel like this should've been the first video but at least we r here now. I hope those who, like myself, saw the first and or second video and git rlly upset and spoke abt it, see this one as well.
It seems the first 2 have been put out prematurely and the issue wasn't ur points but the explanation of them. I'm glad u made this video, and I'm glad I watched it bcuz I was genuinely worried that people would take some of your points and RUN with them, just creating an even less enjoyable state for Kpop.
Conocí a el kpop en la 3era GENERACIÓN, me acostumbré a la calidad de artistas como BTS y mamamoo, es raro ver grupos que no pueden cantar. pero supongo que es por eso que son llamados idolos y no cantantes. me gusta la performance de muchos grupos de la 4ta generación, pero ya saben, es un poco raro ver que al final del día no pueden cantar su propia canción bien. supongo que son mas que todo bailarines y performeadores.
Me pasa lo mismo. Como Exo-L y ReVeLuv que soy, estoy acostumbrada a buenos vocales, armonías, puentes y canciones de más de 3 minutos de duración, y realmente me gustan las canciones de la nueva generación... Pero realmente es decepcionante que no puedan cantar sus propias canciones, más que nada por el hecho de que después reciben hate masivo por ello y sus empresas no hacen nada para proteger a esos idols.
@@MikiAweona374 también me gusta mucho red velvet y siento, sinceramente que ningún grupo ha podido acercarse a lo que son como cantantes. Es bastante decepcionante ver que los ídolos que tienen buenas canciones no pueden cantarlas bien del todo, si siento que es culpa de las empresas, además de todo esto también siento que le han quitado prioridad a la necesidad de APRENDER a cantar, no parecen tomar clases, se ven demasiado cansados y sus voces fallan en muy poco tiempo de trabajo. Eso no pasaba en tan poco tiempo con grupos de la 3era generación como red velvet, bts, mamamoo, exo, etc que tenían buenos cantantes y una resistencia envidiable. Lo de hoy verdaderamente decepcionante.
you hit the nail on the head with this one, Choujimi.
A comment I've seen a few times now is along the lines of "if you enjoyed their performance then I don't want to know you/be friends with you because you don't like being truthful"
like...I'm sorry what? What in the world are you actually saying? Why can't anybody just let us enjoy something for what it is?
i feel like concept and the type of music is so important because i like mamamoo and they are definitely super talented and skilled idols but they aren't my favorite group
12:00 and thats what I think happens if you stan the industry as a whole more that being a fan of different artists who happen to be in the same industry/company/events
The job of an idol, like any employee. is to bring some value to the company in exchange for compensation. How the idol does this is in their job description, which varies as you said.
However, in nearly all job descriptions, there is performing, which often includes singing. If Sakura's only job was to sing, then she would've never been hired. Her value lies in things liek her established fanbase, which makes it easier to get fans to pay for things.
However, her job description still includes singing (though not necessarily being the main or lead vocalist), which is in the job description for most idols, exceptions may have rapping instead (and unlike singers, idol rappers are almost always criticized). Her singing and dancing is going to be how most fans will interact with her (concerts, streaming and CDs, shows) rather than say visual aspects (modeling, magazines, ads), which are things that her label may also value more than her singing.
So it is a fair expectation, if you are primarily watching someone sing and dance, to be competent in those areas even if it's not the primary reason that they are hired since they are still paid to do those things.
everything is well said!! thank you for mentioning those who deeply care about the performing arts. i'm a musician with perfect pitch, so it especially bothers me when an idol can't sing. (that intro is s-tier btw)
My standard is that the groups should at least be able to sing their own songs to at least 80% completion while standing still i.e. encore stages. Completely understand if the focus is on performance/dance over vocals but ultimately they're idols the job is to sing AND dance. They can focus on one but they can't completely be failing at the other. Also most of the groups that "aren't great vocalist" will do better if they had more targeted training. But training means less time doing promotion.
Many kpop stans do not care about talent but like ro pretend to care to look like they're so smart for being able to criticise an idol's abilities.
You're also very right about Mamamoo and Nmixx, they sound so very good.
I advice kpop stans to just let themselves be entertained, you do not need to think or say too much. If you don't like what one group gives you, quietly move on to the ones whose abilities you prefer. It's never that deep. You can always unstan quietly. Stop hurting idols with your words when you don't even like to watch them perform.
Any time people bring this argument up, I point them to what girls in Produce 48 said about how they view being an idol as different to being a singer, and if you want to say "that's just in Japan" then I'll point you to how idol rappers have been treated during Unpretty Rapstar and Show Me The Money. The girls during that show essentially said their belief was that idols are to entertain, not to be perfect vocalists, else all great singers would be idols (and idols who were good singers would just be singers.) Being an idol, unfortunately perhaps, isn't ever really about the singing.
It's a business where being marketable is your biggest asset, and a girl with ten years in the business and millions of fans before she's even in your group is a way bigger asset than a nobody who's able to sing well. And even within the second generation, there was so many times you'd hear "Goo Hara isn't talented, Hyoyeon isn't talented." Let's all not act like "Britney Spears isn't able to sing" wasn't a talking point for years. It's the same argument we've been having for years and years and years within the "pop" genre.
I also wish some people would seek to watch Sakura before LE SSERAFIM too. The songs are in entirely different styles and ranges than she has been singing for her entire life, even within IZ*ONE most songs were a lot higher and she had short lines. Performing with tens to literally hundreds of fellow idols is very different to performing alongside four members. She has improved MASSIVELY through her idol life and will no doubt keep improving (especially her dance ability) if people give her time to do that.
at the end of the day, i'm not gonna stop liking sakura no matter what ppl say. i like watching her perform and i like listening to her lines in iz*one/lsrfm songs. i get if other kpop stans don't agree but like you were saying towards the end, i mostly see the kpop stans with bully tendencies taking their chance to hate on sakura and act superior to other kpop fans
also i think bc i'm a third gen fan, it's normal to me to have weak vocalists in the group. that's why there's main, lead and subs. ofc sub vocalists, especially ones who were also the visual, got hated on for being fillers. but this really isn't some new phenomenon that sakura started, it's not that dramatic
Agreed ! You covered everything really well
THE INTRO HAD ME DEAD LAUGHING
My problem with NMIXX is their songs 😫. The “change up” parts are too jarring and take me out of the song. It makes me want to fast forward through that part and get back to the original song. 😢
Nmixx literally grew into theri music dawg, they literally now have good transitions😂. Its either you straight up don't like them & still insist on listening to their other songs or your standards just can't grasp another music not being baltimore.
i agree a lot, but also i have a slight different point of view about the first argument. i don't think kpop was ever about talent in any generation, at least not solely, because there's always been a fair share of untalented people on each generation (and i would extent that same argument to pop music in general) and we are just clouded with nostalgia. just because more talented idols debuted it doesn't mean that the untalented ones stopped getting away with it, it's actually the opposite because the way that the kpop industry works makes room for that.
what seem to fly over people's heads on that discussion is the fact that the kpop industry sells groups, those are not individual singers, it's collective effort, so one member will compensate the flaws of the other and vice-versa. having a group were everybody is all-rounder it's one in a million type of situation, no matter how much the companies try to sell their groups as such.
the members need to have different skill sets to fit on a certain archetype and public persona, THIS is the product, not the talent alone, and that has been true for most of pop music's history. no matter how much talented you are if you are not selling anything else apart from that, as far as capitalism is concerned.
that's why i never paid no mind to really bad singers on a group if there was a couple of really good ones in the same band, if the person is bringing something to the table, whether a different type of talent or archetype, then i never actually worried about that. every member, more often than not, is gonna add something to the chemistry of the group regardless of their talent.
and to me, THAT is what kpop is about: the harmony between a collect of people and what each one of them represents, this is the main appeal, at least to me.
honestly when it comes to kpop and talent, it's nice that someone is talented, but I don't care about your talent if I don't like your music, I listen to what I like
omg choujimi face reveal
I do agree with "idols are not just singers or dancers/rappers" when it comes to people calling idols 'dozens'. A lot of times those dozens are visuals, faces of the group, or more variety show focused. Being talented with bringing popularity and sponsorships to the group and being an entertaining personality are valid skills that kpop companies are also going to be considering when they form the lineup for a group especially since variety shows and CFs play a huge role in promoting to the Korean general public and idol's personalities are a central part of their appeal. Acting too cuz I was seeing stans on twitter pretending bomi from apink was irrelevant just bc 'shes only famous in korea' or nugu bc only kdrama fans would know her when those kdrama celebs are more relevant and well known to the korean gp than many of their favs. I do still believe that idols should be able to sing though, it doesn't have to be very good but even variety focused idols in the past were decently stable with the few lines they got. On the other hand the newer gen of fans are a lot more focused on 'all rounders' and dozens when I feel like with older groups people were more okay with acknowledging that some members were just there to be funny and popular? It could be the rise in survival shows that made everyone hypercritical on what skills members bring to the table or when companies started forgoing position labels to make them all all-rounders idk
I always say I consider K-pop idols as more recording artists and performers (dance/choreo).
YES they NEED, they are SINGERS
I think that's the thing, i would the skills needed to be an idol fit kura a lot, especially considering her many years of entertaining others in Japan 💙💙
As much as I like le sserafim I admit that there vocals aren't that great, they do great as performers but they still need a lot of training. The whole vocal training system of hybe should be criticized. Just because you have a loyal support of the fans don't give you the right to present unpolished vocals and later auto tune the f*** out of it. Otherwise the group from hybe will be known as just someone who gave viral song once upon a time. It hampers the longevity of their career. I myself never defend sakura for her vocals like after 13 years if you still need to learn from the bottom then,with all due respect choose acting/modeling.
The top management of hybe should seriously look into their vocals training system, and what are they teaching. They are called idol singers, not idol dancers. If dance is the body then singing is the soul of idol industry.
That intro is so real 😭 (no offense I love the yap)
Im one of those ppl that dont rlly favour sakura because of her singing incompetence. But hearing you talk abt your opinion so openly (and warmly?) was so refreshing. I recently got into kpop and definitely use it for the escapism aspect, and have avoided interacting with other ppl bc its so intense. but hearing someone strongly opinionated, but also sensibly kind abt it, i def have been looking at sakura in a different light.
lol I love the intro, it's so funny
It's crazy how people hate on kpop idols as a way of criticism but most of the time they don't really care about the issue at all. they just feel the need to degrade other idols to make their favs look better.
Idols should know how to sing! but just bc they can't hold a note doesn't make them less of an artist! being an idol it's much more than singing.
Also ,I wish people were more kind.
If u don't like an idol, just don't watch them, don't listen to their music, ignore them. If u think ur favs are better then just praise your favs 🙏🙏
🤣🤣🤣🤣 we love the self clowning in here (relating to the vid's intro)
14:20 i think it could be said like that IF this was 2017/2019 when kpop just started being known by the western. But we already have BTS, Blackpink, other idols and even other Asian artist like NIKI or Rich Brian that yes, we need to be taken seriously. I think this argument also came from Korean prideful mentality. I mean there’s a readon why hierarchy is such an important aspect in their social life too
I am more of a casual fan.If Kpop was all about the talent,those same people who say that wouldn't be kpop fans. They would be listening to something like progressive jazz fusion and opera. Let's look at 2nd generation.Since it was because of the talent that it grew. These "all about the talent" people are really going to tell me a song like Gee(one of the greatest kpop songs of all time)is the showcase of pure talent and skill? They going to tell me this is the epitome of vocal and dance ability and skill. If kpop is all about the talent,we should be able look back and analyze every kpop star or potential kpop star and say that only the most talented individuals went to the top.We have to be able to say that no one who was super talented ever got rejected. Also have these " if this were any other job" people ever been out in the real world?
I would say i agree with some people on the globalisation in kpop like kpop songs have become more "Western" to some extent i feel after the globalisation of kpop from the 3rd gen changed the viewpoints of kpop due to western music fans bcs some western singers are horrible while kpop was more "focused" on talent before the western influence changed the stance on talent in the industry
Same. I don't get how saying you don't care whether an idol is a good vocalist or not, is disrespectful to artists who put in a lot of effort to sing well. It's a self explanatory statement that people are taking and attaching their own feelings and meanings to. You celebrate both the idols who excel in vocals and those try their best, so it's strange that people are attaching a meaning to what you're saying when thats not your stance.
I too take an interest in Kpop as a hobby and find that it's not something to be taken seriously, but unfortunately, it's the nature of the inter-webs and netizens to take things like this too seriously. Having said that, I really commend you on how maturely and professionally you've handled all this. I am learning a lot and from you and the way in which you handle things like this. Great video Chouj, it's as long as my videos are haha! but honestly, it was necessary.
Some things require a delicate touch and a lot of explanation, and you did a great job with all of that as always.
P.S the epic intro really had me rolling haha! 🤣 I loved it! EXO's Kai is literally one of my absolute favorite vocalist. He may not be a top tear vocalist, but I've always loved that man's voice, so in the intro, when Kai grabs the award, you pretty much said what your stance is on vocals without even saying it. It was Chef's kiss. Keep cookin Chouj!🧑🍳 🫶🩵
I think now more than ever Kpop fans "feel" kpop is as important; Therefore setting themselves up for failure--- They were idols from the beginning trained to do so, not singers or dancers yet a mixture of both so the line fades as to how talented they need to be in each arena due to subjective outlook. Yet basic singing or the vocal ability of a vocalist should not be overlooked is where I come from--- Sakura doesn't even deliver that and it's not diminishing her other improvements in dance and stage presence. It seems like just with an idol who has a pretty face & likable onscreen persona fans are willing to defend them viciously, while it's not a surprise, it makes the conversation very stunted "shes improved and worked hard", "she never promised to be the best vocal" are regressive generalized and extreme arguments( can be applied for all)
Personally for me the purpose of a group is for members to cover each others faults so not everyone has to be a great singer. Sakura was bulled for her vocals since pd48 yall and I applaud her for still pushing through and debuting again. I hate that people use her as an example that kpop vocals are bad and I hate that they relentlessly bully her for it. We learned nothing from Sulli and continue to push these idols into bad mental states.
The problem with the whole talent Argument for me is, the way we are acting as if there are a limited number of spots that if an idols isnt the best at anything they are taking that spot from somebody more talented who deserved it more. Almost as if the entire industry is a huge survival show
Unpopular opinion : NMIXX sings so well, but they are way more group who sing better than them but are a way more popular group who can't hold a note.
And yes, being a K-pop idol is more than singing, but one doesn't stop another... i mean, look at all idols who do more fanservice who belt more than Sakura ?? People love to say "tes, but i jpop they're closer to fan" no AKB48 or all group 48 are.
The fact that we're accepting lacking idols as if Miss A or SNSD never done more fanservice 4th gen ever did.
SNSD, BTS, 2NE1, BLACKPINK, EXO, Wonder girls, and Twice fought in the west to show that K-pop isn't only about pretty gay faces who just dance. They showed that K-pop was diverse and had great singers, but if now we have to be satisfied for the minimum just because idol is a lot of thing well... fuck that.
Cause those girl only have high school diplomas, and thanks to us, they live their life. Free rent, free food, free training, people producing and writing songs for them, choreography made for them. Thank to us, they're living and can't even try to just sing right and prefer calling people out, saying, "we made it look easy" when they had easy like...
Kpop was always about singing and the fact that yall are trying to speak over Korean fans and kpop fans saying "oh but being idol is more than singing" I'm like- go back to yall came from.
Asian music was never taken seriously, and now that pioneers have given them visibility, they make a song as if they paved their own way like
The only groups who can sing better than NMIXX are mostly groups from 1st-3rd gen where you literally have over 4 skilled vocalists. BUT in 4th gen, they literally have NO competition or whatsoever. 5th Gen just started & there's no main vocalist who can compete on the same level as Lily & Haewon. Sullyoon & Kyujin are STEADILY improving time to time so yes, NMIXX is still untouchable when it comes to vocals. Not even AESPA, BAEMON nor Purple Kiss can hold a candle near them.
The thing is with technology and such it is easier to have this whole thing, especially these prerecorded "live" Performances, imagine trying to record a track with breath in the studio and then play them with the backtrack at the same time to seem live. Ypu could do that with the technology from like 10 years ago
About the "what if its a different job" argument I think that it doesn't matter if you're talented at your job, if the company isn't making money you're gonna be fired anyways. In Kpop as an industry profits rule so if people buy albums and concerts tickets then there's nothing wrong. Kpop is more than just stage performances, and sakura's vocal ability isn't making le sserafim sales any lower, so why criticise her lack of talent when her job is doing good, not great, but its doing its purpose that is making money for hybe. Fans can expect a better performance? Yes. But is a good performance the only reason why this industry is so big? No. Is good performance the only reason why people listen to kpop? Also not.
the intro is so funny i mean you should be getting an award consider this me giving you an award
For sure, these folks should not be shamed or attacked for not being a good singer/dancer/performer. However, should we praise mediocrity, though?
Like your profession is to sing/dance/perform you should be able to do that somewhat well. Especially, if you've gone through training.
This is looking at both kpop and western pop music, btw.
This vid + many other vids you made definitely let me learn a lot of admirable qualities bout yourself such as your ability to make jokes when appropriate, debating bout the sides and opinions that aren't popular, and singlehandedly being one of the kindest people ever 💙
Luv ya bestie (well i hope i can be your bestie haha)
Just watched a bit before bed so sorry if i repeat a point said later, but this is not just Kpop though. Pop and music is also not all about talent or always just about talent. Someone incredibly talented could be niche and relatively unknown while someone with barely half the talent or none at all could be going viral. It's never one dimensional, ever.