*Some corrections:* - I apologize for mispronouncing BtoB! It’s “B to B” and not what I said. - Some people have brought up the fact that Killing Voice has a lot of pitch correction and playback and after finding this out, I do agree that it's not a fair comparison to Le Sserafim's raw vocals. I used Sehun as an example of a weak vocal who can sing his lines well since he's known for his improvement. I was not aware of the playback because Sehun in this clip is actually singing Kai's lines so I presumed that part was live. I've linked a fancam of Sehun singing a part in a ballad but the fans are really loud so it's a little hard to hear. I genuinely think Sehun can sing on key and he's been praised for his improvement. th-cam.com/video/ijukrahw2Tk/w-d-xo.html
killing voice is live, there's pitch correction but no one lipsyncs. I agree that it's not fair to use that as comparison with raw vocals, but it's not like Killing Voice is *that* far away from what they sound live.
@@baldboyfriend8589there are a lot of good kpop singers the one I can remember rn is mamamoo , Akdong , nmixx [these are groups there are a lot of soloist as well] it's just that hybe gets support which is why they keep pushing out mediocre singers the whole thing is so unfair not only for the audience but the singers as well[are subjected to bull. ing from the public]
One comment I read left me speechless and it came from a fearnot. "Eunchae's voice sounds nothing like the recorded version" not because of the lack of stability, they meant the sound is completely different. And they were right. She has a deep voice and in the recorded version it sounds high pitched. Obviously there's going to be problems if their voices are so overly produced in the studio till the point of sounding unrecognizable. Also is not healthy for them to sing without knowing how not to harm themselves, that might be the reason why they're regressing vocally.
you can watch video on yt where daisy (ex-momoland) is telling about line distribution, and she said that while recording, if one member cannot hit the right note, they can have other member sing said member's line and then blend two voices together. i'm not saying that its the case with lssrfm but still that happens more frequently than we think ig
@@melisacaceres8740 hmm, it sounds like her tone to me. maybe u guys might be getting confused bc of tuning in her voice on the track and her bad performance here from coachella , but on the track it just sounds like she’s singing through her nose. i can still tell it’s her voice
@@watashi5700 I've always thought performance-based groups are those that focus on giving explosive or engaging performances and not focus on robotic choreo but more on the immersion/participation of the audience and live singing. BigBang comes to mind. Maybe it's best to just call them dance-based groups.
@@iagreewithyou3478yes you're right! That's what I call a performance-based group. Most of these new groups coming out are just dance-based groups. Their songs heavily rely on auto-tune so that it would somehow sound good. That's why there's such a huge difference when you hear them singing live vs the recorded version.
The fact that baekhyun today still takes vocal lessons despite being a phenomenal singer explains exactly why he is so. You can't have an ego about training while already debuted and you should have that hunger to learn, get better. That's what helps you.
They do take vocal lessons though. They have a vocal coach at Hybe. You can say that the training from Hybe isn't sufficient, but don't discredit that they do try to improve vocally.
@@Vax_XXIV I guess what rubbed me the wrong way was their attitude of "screw you haters we did great 😋" after their Coachella performance instead of saying we'll try to improve next time. It definitely came across very arrogant & like "we're at a stage where subpar quality is ok and we can pass with it".
@@irakulkarni5445 I personally didn’t see them say that. I was there at their Coachella performance and saw a lot of live performances that day and so I personally did not feel they did that bad. But I can understand if they did say they don’t need training at all or something like that how that would be annoyingn
@@irakulkarni5445 she literally said she felt even more encourage able (?) to practice more. People been saying lessera girls have bad attitude while the whole time they always practicing and never seen satisfied with themselves. The thing was, sakura letter was meant for her fans and it's already hinted she has anxiety and stage fright since their first documentary. That's why they're more understanding with the letter
And the vocals of a group is literally what set it apart from everyone else, its like their identity, thats why some of the ggs like nmixx, aespa, twice, itzy is very distinctive.
Agree all of them even if they aren't strong vocalists but they are good and stable but i always said that they need at least one strong vocalists i thought they should've debut one of the 3 main vocalists of nmixx with them
@@gingersummer4005 lool they are soo good but i felt they should added one of them to itzy they need a strong vocalists like haewon for example because she's really good dancer and will suit the group concept
My issue is why debut a group that don’t have good vocals? I thought the whole thing about training for years is to insure the idols the company debut under are at least good at singing?
actually lsfm barely trained, it's what's very interesting these days bcuz new groups keep debuting with often barely 1 year of training and it's why they're bad. Babymonster members all have many years of training and they are so good, this just shows how training is important and that the eyars aren't for nothing
tbh i think the reason hybe debuted them so early on is to cash in on the post izone hype
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@@elsa7594 If only they got good songs man 😭. It feels like YG is stuck in the 2010's in terms of music, like they keep trying to reproduce the same success using the same formula but the times have changed and now they just sound dated. Babymon's songs sound like Blackpink rejects, and Blackpink songs sound like 2NE1 derivatives. The thing is, the girls are genuinely really talented but it feels like YG is pushing the Blackpink/2NE1 concept on them instead of working with them to bring out their own sound. In that regard, KIOF's member based concept approach was super smart and effective and actually not that far off from how YG used to produce their groups. To me it's ironic that a nugu company (S2 ent) group was able to produce a group that feels more YG than any group they've recently come out with.
@@tashasmithy5795 In all fairness, Sakura hasn't been getting the resources from any of the companies she's been under. And I have been through her idol life before she was in Kpop at all. Sakura has improved a lot and has gotten a lot more stable but the company honestly does not give her the right lines. Or any of the group for that matter, they compensate the lack of higher notes for lower notes that do not suit them because they are more soprano than alto.
I noticed the problems since Anti-fragile. In defense of Easy, there's no glide in the vocal melody and the jump from notes are large (like in " kiss... me... swipji ahneul..."). It's not hard, per se but if you're onstage and have bad breath support, it become real obvious when you miss the note for something near that. For Eunchae's clogged nasality and Kazuha's slurring though, I have no defence. They legit have no real training period probably and SOMU is not reaching out to vocal trainers post-debut.
Honestly, Gfriend being disbanded is kind of good for LSF at the beginning. Imagine having a senior sister group with stable and strong vocalist - the comparison will be crazy
Performance-based group??? Isn’t all kpop group technically performance-based… 😭 the choreography, singing, visual. Fans need to stop making excuses for their favs. 😭💅
Even if you want to argue that there's NOT performance based groups, uh... there are so many kpop groups that deliver both performance and vocals. Literally any SM group, Kiss of Life, Mamamoo (I said what I said. If people think these ladies are just vocals, I highly recommend watching any live performance they've done and reconsidering), Gfriend, Dreamcatcher, Purple Kiss... I don't dislike LS (they release bops, hybe definitely knows how to do that), but performance based is not an excuse.
@@Dokemoni I could've sworn BigBang has successfully broken that stereotype long ago and helped open doors for the younger self producing groups to be respected as artists as well. I just turned my head away from kpop for a year or two, and we're back to square one because of some groups from frickin Hybe.
the problem here lies with company stans...they give Hype Co new groups a pass for lack of skills. Company won't waste resources to train them since fans will literally support all groups they debuted with minimal effort and brag them as performance based groups.
I agree with what you said in the video, but you left out one VERY important reason why they NEED to improve their vocals and technique, and that reason is their health. singing so much with such bad technique WILL cause them physical harm in the long run, and if they don't start working on fixing it soon, it WILL become irreversible and permanent and they might end up not being able to sing at all and in a lot of pain. we can already hear a lot of vocal regression from lack of practice even in the members that are considered to be the better singers in the group, vocal training is something you HAVE to maintain constantly, even the best vocalists have to practice ALL HE TIME, to make sure their voices stay up to per and healthy, let alone improve. what HYBE is doing to those girls (and all of their other artists, if we're being real here...) with their lack of proper vocal training is actually criminal. They are causing them damage by giving them songs that are way out of their vocal comfort zone and then don't give them the training to do those songs in a healthy and safe way. I wouldn't be surprised if more than half their artists end their careers early with permanent vocal damage. This is just sad and very worrying. An even better example than Kai would be his BFF Taemin. Taemin, as you probably know, didn't even have a single line in SHINee's debut song because he couldn't sing the lines he originally got. but he worked his @ss off to improve his vocals to the point that he's the one covering most of Jonghyun's lines (including most of his most iconic high notes), and Jonghyun is considered to be one of the best male vocalists in kpop history. he became a better vocalist then most main vocalists in kpop, and when we talk about technique and vocal versatility, he's actually one of the best, you'll find it hard to find many in kpop with better technique and vocal versatility (there ARE vocalists that are naturally better than him, but when it comes to technique alone and his control of it, he's pretty high up on the list...). his story proves that if you REALLY want to you can improve no matter what, he was just as busy as those idols are now (maybe even more, he was also going to school, maintaining his place as one of the top 3 students in his school, competing in Math competitions, and winning, and pretty much LIVING in the dance studio, on top of schedules...) and he STILL made sure to make time EVERY SINGLE DAY for vocal practice.
Thank you for bringing this up, this is definitely a point that gets left out in the conversation! Taemin is a fantastic example. I love Shinee but Exo is my ult group who I know in and out so I felt more confident speaking about Kai!
@@whenfinish understandable. And yeah, every time I see this discussion come up, no one mentions the physical harm this neglect causes the artists, and I would think that's one of the most important things, or at least it SHOULD be, for both sides of the argument...
I think what you said perfectly describes Sakura. She was a good vocalist in her kid Broadway days but it seems like she regressed a lot during HKT, most likely due to not practicing. It seems like singing with an unhealthy technique has done a ton on her as it looks like singing physically pains her lol. You can tell by how it looks like she's going to cry in the Encores. Even in Coachella, it looked like she was trying a TON to stay on pitch throughout the performance (which, props to her, she did way better than expected.)
@yoyoonah she might have reached that point of permanent damage, for her sake I hope not, but if she did, there might not be much she CAN do at this point to improve...
YG taking so many years to debut Babymonster was a good move because all these girls are impressive singers on top of having great dancing and stage presence! I just think Hybe is debuting groups too quickly and not training them enough.
Well, the reason why YG only debuted a new group is cause they also usually don‘t have two girl groups active at the same time but with BP they knew they had to get the girls resign at least as a group or they would've been doomed. But yea, BM have good vocals, not the most outstanding but with the standards being lower and lower, they‘re one of the best to come out of recent times.
@@Trish.65Yes, if you're comparing them to Sakura and Shuhua, but it isn't hard being impressive in comparison to them💀 Baby Monster's vocalists aren't even above average in comparison to vocalists who debuted in last years.
I have a hard time supporting yg because I hate the music, but it's hard to criticize when they came back with actual singers this generation. I don't particularly care for the member they're pushing as usual but they're OK. Wish the music was better ofc ofc
@@kylediagon5444 what do you mean jaejoong was literally the main vocalist of dbsk and visual we cant compare him to lsf like that yunho outsing lsf and the whole hybe groups is the right way to say it
I think something that’s really important to talk about in this discussion is the increasing prevalence and dependence of lip syncing. Idol groups sang live more often in 2nd and 3rd gen, and therefore they had to be good at singing. But now that lip syncing is so ubiquitous and normalized, companies feel like they don’t have to train idols in singing as much because they can get away with it.
And autotune. Technology has come so far and it seems fandoms don’t keep up. No shade to groups as everyone globally uses it for singing performances but a perfect performance could be enhanced. Not always representative of a members talent or lack of it. I agree with you!
I agree with you mostly, but there still are some companies and groups (notably groups under jyp like stray kids, itzy, and nmixx) who do sing live a vast majority of the time while also having difficult choreos
I think lip syncing is so popular now because cuz fans are so obsessed with really cool and difficult dances that I think songs are becoming difficult to perform while both singing and dancing if that makes sense
@@badbitchvibes9807 I agree! The whole live thing is so strange. If there is a mic… there could be enhancements (autotune). The whole perfect every time in every way is just not realistic. What’s wrong with imperfections? That shows it’s real imo
What I hate the most is even when people give genuine, constructive, and nicely worded criticism, someone will say something along the lines of “Well if you’re such an expert why don’t you perform?” I’m not the ARTIST being paid thousands, possibly millions to dance AND sing, who *should have* been given extensive training for years to do so
I don't hate Le-Sserafim, but it's just something off that I can't explain. They're definitely one of the groups, that I wouldn't mind taking a year or two hiatus to improve and do some little promotions there. I hate to see any idol get hate, but it's upsetting that fans are denying it out of fear of looking like haters or feeling like because they are their fans, they must be hardcore fans and lie for them or their company even when it's obvious. The hate is definitely too much, but I wish they had better training, as I'm tired of all the excuses. They have good music and stage presence, but the vocals don't match with everything else.
All this time I thought I was being a hater but it's literally they can't sing their own songs. And performance group is funny when they don't dance particularly well compared to other 4th gen groups
True fans know they lack vocal skills however we never denied that, we just wanted haters to stop hating them for every single thing they do which they make issues out of, they literally kept getting death threats and r-word threats and every single video or post with them in it the haters use it as chances to insult them over their singing skills even if the the posts are unrelated to their singing. Ngl, the girls somehow regressed vocally after debuting, chaewon and yunjin were superb stable singers but after debuting in lesserafim, the company giving them songs out of their range, i feel like somehow theyre not singing with the same quality before debuting, as for sakura, undeniably i can see shes not the best singer but during her izone era and japanese idol era, she was decent tho i feel like due to the lack of vocal training during those eras she damaged her vocals so i can only hope proper vocal training now can help her improve (which i can see during their other live performances), as for eunchae, there werent a lot of opportunities to hear her live vocals due to having less lines during their first year, but in their live year end performances and encores she was pretty decent and that was why there wasnt really any controversies regarding her singing, but somehow it got more noticeable during easy era, the song was clearly not in her range which makes her voice appear deep and unstable and just got worse for their coachella performance. These are just some things i cant deny as a fan since their debut, I hope the company gives them the proper training they need so they no longer further damage their vocal chords singing with the wrong techniques. I can only blame the company as well for rushing their debut without having them undergo proper vocal training. Don’t hate the girls, hate the company.
They're just a money grab riding off of Chaewon and Sakuras' success in IZONE. They aren't particularly strong in any aspect; performance, vocals, rap, dance, stage presence etc. It doesn't help that each release seems to be dickriding trends, eg. Smart. Or just not that great or memorable There's just nothing exceptional about them, compared to groups like Aespa, Baby Monster, Kiss of Life, XG, IVE, New Jeans, Young Posse. Its unfortunate because they have the potential, both through funds and talent
They are kind of getting the gfriend treatment but with a different concept. It’s too bad they think using izone members is enough but it’s not going to be if they don’t improve their vocals or show something we haven’t seen before.
@@zebethlia This is spot-on. It makes me sad to see how popular le sserafim is when they are lacking in so many aspects of a successful kpop idol group (their singing, dancing, stage presence, performance, entertainment, etc. skills) and other groups who deserve it aren't as popular. It's not a good influence for aspiring stars as well. I hope companies stop abandoning skills for clearly superficial imaging.
What else makes it worse is that HYBE released a few live performances where fans are delusional praising them for improving their vocals so fast… when you can hear the heavy heavy pitch correction. I’m confused how fans can’t differentiate live vocals vs backtrack vs pitch correction. Can hybe please invest in their artists instead of treating them like cash cows?
seriously, the amount of fans that are completely blind to a backing track is maddening. like i accept they are normal during intense choreography, but then fans set them up posting clips gushing over their perfect ‘live vocals’…..where said idol is skipping and jumping across the stage with no audible change in their voice..
Yoona is SNSD’s “weakest” vocalist but she could still hold a tune and still sang live fearlessly and confidently. If you look back at old SNSD performances, she sang her lines fairly well and got the job done, even though she’s the center, visual, and a lead dancer…
It also helps that SM knows what the members were capable of; none of the dance line was expected to perform at the level of the vocal line, and the vocal line equally contributed to the more vocally challenging parts of their songs
That’s a great point. I’m a huge snsd stan, and I’ve never once thought that yoona lacked talent compared to the other members. She’s a wonderful dancer, super charismatic and can obviously hold a tune and even rap when needed. such a solid visual/ idol.
She was not the weakest pretty untrue it was Yuri, and still to this day Yuri is the only girl unable to be on pitch lol she is still even tease by the rest for this
Yoona's also been provided solos or duets where her voice shines. Deoksugung Stonewall Walkway, Summer Night, her Chinese EP and Where the Wind Blows is evidence of this. Yeah her voice isn't as powerful as Taeyeon's but she can hold a tune and that's the biggest thing for me. The "weakest" vocalist in SNSD yet she was capable of making improvements throughout her singing career that allowed her to have those singles.
lets be realistic. the only groups with weak vocals are those from hybe post fromis/ g-friend and those from competition shows. and what a coincidence hybe basically chose both groups from competition shows.
@@mariasol1545 they are not powerhouse vocalists. they just have beautiful tones. I'm not saying they are bad singers but comparing them to like SM groups, Nmixx, babymonster etc. they arent like Whitney houstons/ mariah careys / beyonces they are a lot more subtle
Exactly!! I'm tired of this trend of youtube commentators (I'm not talking about this channel, she's a 2nd gen fan and I respect that) trashing "Kpop vocals" and expressing themselves like all Kpop is basically HYBE. When there are tons of other groups super talented, interesting and with amazing music. Frustrating.
Lsrfm has had criticism on their vocals since fearless encore stage. That was their debut yet they still sound this bad. In other words, they're not training vocally because their toxic fans are always going to be there to rub their shoulders. Ive is another group that's been criticized for weak vocals but i just listened to an mr removed of Heya and i can't deny Wonyoung sounds much better. She's not there yet. No. But you can tell she's doing some training in the background to better herself. I don't understand this lsrfm group, nor do i understand their fans so I'm as out as out can be. There are so many groups out there with pleasing vocals like nmixx, aespa, kiss of life, and baby monster, and I prefer to stan talent x hardwork
IVE's development is what Lsrfm should've been. I feel like most criticisms IVE has gotten in the beginning were actually listened to and corrected by Starship (as occasionally shady as they are), with the impressive vocals of "I AM" seemingly being a direct response to the "lipsyncing while sitting down" scandal. Wonyoung has also heavily improved on her vocals, as you stated. Meanwhile, Lsrfm has done worse than stay stagnant--they've dipped in quality. I get that Starship is a smaller company and can't really afford to risk losing fans, but the fact that HYBE is under the notion that they can get away with mediocrity just because of their status is an insult to their fans' intelligence.
as someone who used to criticize ive left and right i completely agree. it's not that hard to turn critical listeners into fans because they're already invested in the group as is. there were certain aspects of ive i didn't enjoy, and they fixed those, so i turned into a fan. it doesn't get simpler than that. lesserafim's management is just stubbornly holding them back and relying on nothing but company image and pity stans instead of actually improving them
@@tony-dk7qi Yooo I used to be an IVE critic too 😭 But after their major improvements and actually putting fans’ concerns into consideration, I am not ashamed to admit that they eventually got me on their team. The opposite goes for Lsrfm-I started off rooting for them, but lost interest overtime…
Maybe the standards of people who don’t criticize Le ssarafim is low. These just enjoy the show and since they were entertained. That’s good enough for them. I don’t hate them but there is really something wrong with their vocals.
Kiss of life and DC are my favs therefore my standards isn't low, I just stopped caring because not only the main song they were using against them was their last song of the performance after dancing nonstop for a hour, but so many people just want to hate them. And I did watch the whole thing and they didn't sound that bad, there were some rough parts but this blew out of proportion
I remember how Twice was at some point one of the most hated girlgroups and also constantly crticized the way Lesserafim are now, they lipsang a lot and were called just performers and pretty faces, they even got a black ocean when they won an award i believe. Seeing the amount of respect people have for them now it's weird. I dont think they became the best live vocalists of any era but im proud of them anyway, they had so much growth especially Tzuyu, and with their new skills they found a new confidence which helped them get where they are The thing about singing live is the confidence, if your singer doesn't know the skills to sing they are not gonna be confident in their singing and will not sing or sing good at all
They were bad at 2015, when SNSD, Sistar, Exid, Exo, Red Velvet, SHINee, Gfriend, Infinite, etc were in the spotlight. But overall, Rookie Twice was way better than Le Sserafim
@Blanka767 their debut wasn't that criticized because they weren't that popular back then. The hate started more around 2016 after Cheer up and TT popularity, in that sense they were more like IVE and their wave of hate I cannot say if they were better vocally than Lessera or not, they were really bad (and i love them) but Lesserafims problem would be their arrogance too, not only by the members but also the fans, they were sold an empowering concept since the beginning, articles talking good about them every criticism was swep under the rug and fans deluded themseleves until it couldn't be hidden anymore We Onces were delulu too at times, but in our case there wasn't this big event that made people open their eyes about how awful they sang because people were already hating on them since forever
@@bornarose11 Twice was not bad, honestly the Cheer up mr removed was only hated because Sana was lip syncing. Listen to their Daring woman cover, One in a million performance or even their first ever Mr.Removed, Twice was always good. Momo is the only bad singer, but she is one of the best dancers of 3rd gen, what about Sakura?
People forget that K-pop is MUSIC. Like ok they dance too but that’s like an addition to the main part which is singing. Their official releases are albums with songs they are not a dance crew. Like it you can’t sing and you’re releasing music that requires you to SING then cmon. I’d rather have a mid dance with idols singing amazingly on stage, which is seen a lot from a few years ago.
@@olilondonpavethewayforkpop Your comments are so superficial. Mind you, there's people who actually care about THE MUSIC. If I wanted to look at beautiful people I would look at models. Visuals should be a plus not the entire reason why you're into k-pop in the first place
All groups need a good singer - and no I don't mean they have to be Taeyeon/Hyorin/Solji/Luna/etc. They just have to sing well enough for the belts and the simple run, or at least, staying in pitch. Good singers allow a lot of dynamics in delivering a song. Yunjin and Chaewon are fine, but something happens; the girls sound so unstable these days. The rest of the girls are inconsistent but have shown a few sparks here and there. So now it's about them having to be more consistent in singing.
I mean many peopl out there living with good vocals, atleast one group have very good or above average vocal skill then the rest are average that can sing with tone and can sing live. Company should have better casting team.
Kpop has normalized many things that made it beyond saving at this point. Transformed music into endless competition, numbers and wins. Truly ridiculous.
BTS's RM releases an album straight up pouring his heart out, 99% of the comments would rather inflate the statistics of "listens" than discuss the lyrics, cinematography, etc. We are in hell.
I think Taemin is the strongest proof that even the weakest vocalist can improve if they have the desire to improve. Taemin was in this position in the beginning of Shinee and he consistently improved to be the great vocalist that he is today. Nothing is stopping these idols from practicing on their own if they really had the desire to be better. As much as people like to ignore it, I think groups like BlackPink unfortunately opened the floodgates for this exact problem now. If BlackPink can be mediocre with low effort and no growth but still manage to be one of the most popular girl groups in the world then why would other companies worry about it if they saw firsthand that good visuals and attractiveness alone can carry a group to popularity. The companies should care and provide the means but at the end of the day its still up to the idols because its their job to perform. They chose this path and they choose to be mediocre. Some people are naturally good at performing but that doesn’t change the fact that it’s still a skill that can be practiced and developed.
Agree with everything but being in a rock group does not give you the excuse of being a bad vocalist, like look at pierce the veil, fallout boy, set it off they're decent vocalists
I said RAP group, meaning if they were a rap group, I'd understand not being strong in vocals with singing (even then rappers have their own technique with rhythm and such). Rock is my fav genre outside of kpop, believe me I know a plethora of amazing singers in that genre
Even in death metal, bad vocalists are clowned on. Look at Chris Barnes. He used to be one of the most brutal vocalist in death metal with his band Cannibal Corpse. But after he left and formed Six Feet Under, his vocals continued to regressed and nowadays, he is a joke compared to his peers like George Fisher and John Tardy.
Honestly like seeing them perform they got the presence and energy but the vocals are a no. Even tho Chaewon and Yunjin are always praised Yunjin has gotten worse for some reason and ppl tried to excuse it with her opera vids until it was embarrassingly obvious Yunjin has regressed. I’m not even sure she can do the opera style as strongly or at all anymore. Chaewon despite any mistakes is still the only one holding down the group. She still gets praised cause her human mistakes are acceptable cause she still tries and maintains her vocals majority of the time.
Her so called "opera style" with an in-ear mic is the most ridiculous thing to validate her singing. REAL opera singers don''t use a mic AT ALL. It's like wearing the Joker's costume in Halloween without being a true psycopath.
@@iuvnet She wasn't even an opera singer, she took classical singing classes and did some musicals (like The Phantom of the Opera, the reason why people think she was an opera singer)
Just because a lot of japanese Idols cant sing and were not given proper training from their agency does not mean that all japanese idols cant sing. Fans should stop using this excuse. 1. Some people are just not born natural singers, no matter how many vocal lessons they get they will still sound like dying ducks 2. There are a lot of people that can sing without ever getting vocal lessons 3. Akb members are responsible for their own vocal and dance lessons. So it is on Sakura for never getting vocal lessons. I have seen enough Akb members taking vocal and dance lessons 4. Sakura has never been a good singer. In akb you do not need to be good at singing to be the most popular member. Mnet also knew this and this is how her spot in Izone got secured. She had the hard working girl storyline (not like all the other participants were also giving their best). From the very first episode everyone knew fhat either her or jurina were going to debut since they were the Aces at the time. A lot of actual talented japanese members were overlooked during Produce 5. Sakura hasnt really improved not during Akb, Izone or nor lesserafim 6. Why cant basically 80% of the female Japanese idols in kpop decently sing? Is it maybe on purpose? Why are most of them so nasal? 7. XG can sing, Babymetal can sing, so why cant they sing 8. Kazuha was not ready to debut. The only thing that saved her and she was praised for were her vocals. Remember how Giselle was criticised for not keeping up with fhe other girls dancing after only training for 11 months? Yeah at least she could sing and rap from day one. 9. Dropping Garam was their vocal downfall because she was one of the members carrying their songs 10. There is a good reason why Eunhae barely got any lines during fearless. Her voice is actually worse than Sakura's. She was a trainee or not. How is it not showing. 11. Yunjin is not an idol singer and needs to change her technique 12. Chaewon. I dont really have any complaints because she is the one keeping this group floating. 13. They need easier dances. Their performance on week 2 Coachella was better because they danced less. 14. They need to stop using too much autotune on their songs so that people are not chocked when hearing their actual voices 15. 4th and 5th gen is about popularity, charting, getting a piece of the pie and producing catchy songs and not about the quality of the music. An example Illit Magnetic. Only one members voice matched the song and the others were barely surviving. Good thing they never have to perform it live. But the song is still charting because it is catchy and the girls are pretty. Yes, they get criticized for their voices, but they are still bringing in money
10th point is completely invalid tho, just xcuz you dont like the tone of eunchae doesnt mean others dont as well, i and many others like her warm tone and i really think it adds contating flavour to the group's discography, please use another and actual valid statement, your points on sakura and kazuha were right tho, and the garam point, on a techniqual standpoint she was worse than eunchae in supported range as well as live singing so idk how her leaving was a vocal downfall when people mustve trolled her as much as they do to kazuha or eunchae
Yeah I mean if hybe wants pretty girls looking like they can sing by lip syncing they should just stick to the domestic fans and not push them global bc everyone else outside of Korea care about decent vocals.
Half of these points are just straight up hate 😭? The bit on Illit was so unfair too, realistically only Moka ever sounded bad AND they JUST debuted. And, on top of that, Yunah and Minju both sounded actively great on encores, you just don’t like the group lol.
@@slaypai think people might also just be curious about them even more now that they’re in the media with the hybe drama so they’re listening out of curiosity
As a fan of Le Sserafim, i love their songs and performances. However, it is a main part of their job to be singers, and they arent doing nearly as well as youd expect with their fame… im starting to drift away from them bc its honestly embarrassing to like singers that cant even hold a note. it is disappointing since they always have banger songs 🙁
Same:((. I’m not a fan of their newer releases since unforgiven and I don’t see a point in being a fan if I don’t enjoy their music or I’m not a fan of their vocals when I listen to their music. I’ve began to affiliate to groups like nmixx and aespa more.
Same I’ll still enjoy their studio songs that are catchy but I’m definitely not standing for sure. They are gonna end up like gfriends if they don’t improve
I honestly agree. I think these girls have room to improve but seeing of their live performances were hard to watch. I really love singers who have strong vocals like Forestella but not everyone is going to like them.If you are a singer then it is your job to sing at least decently.
Being a performance based group is absolutely not an excuse. Itzy is a group, that as a whole has weaker vocalists than lesserafim, but even they manage to sound INCREDIBLE when singing live, whether it’s while dancing to their incredibly difficult songs or just standing for an encore. I will say, I do think the problem with lesserafim, besides their weak vocals, is their songs. Fearless and Easy are unbelievably low for female groups, and clearly low notes aren’t Yunjin, Chaewon, and Sakuras strong suits, while high notes aren’t Kazuha and Eunchae’s strong suits. Tbf Kazuha Sakura and Eunchae don’t entirely have a strong suit… But I will say, Eunchae has always sounded decent in the standing encores, and Kazuha actually sounded quite good during easy encores. I think Yunjin is just trying to sing with a certain style, and it is NOT working for her.
With Le Sserafim, they have such easy songs so even more then, they should be able to hit these notes. If they‘re struggling with singing easy songs during an encore, they shouldn't be singers. It‘s their job literally.. but at least we have some groups in fourth gen and now fifth gen who have good vocalists and even the non-vocalists can hold a note, aka NMIXX, Kiss Of Life and BabyMonster (I don‘t like BM's music really cause like yk, give them a different concept, but they all can hold a note.)
hybe just doesn't care, BTS has actually talked about how they had to find vocal trainers themselves since bang pd priorities are in stage presence and dance
@@mariasol1545 well at least BTS strived for improvement in their vocals. Though they should have a vocal coach or individual vocal coaches provided by Hybe.
ngl i dont think they suit the concept at all sakura is much more capable of doing high notes if you review her clips back when she was still an idol and the girls are struggling with low notes which most of their songs are shouldn't we attack the company for this?
@@frinlwatson2208 Well, this wasn‘t an attack. It‘s pretty obvious they all lack proper vocal training. And yeah, they don‘t fit the songs they‘re currently doing. Fearless and Antifragile were better and more unique to them as a group. Also, Sakura was singing high pitched songs and she didn‘t get many lines in IZ*One. And when she was in AKB48 and HKT48, she didn‘t receive proper vocal training so those high notes probably weren‘t executed properly and damaged her voice even more. So I wouldn't count on those. And I don‘t think you can get so weak in your vocals in just a couple of years.. what Sakura and the group in general need is a vocal coach. So they can build a proper foundation. And yea it‘s a misstep by Hybe to give them songs not really suited for their range. But eh, it‘s Hybe, they just don‘t care
@@jxstadri true, i honestly think that sakura and the group as a whole could be so much more capable of reaching high vocals if only hybe cared enough about their training and actually put effort into giving them lessons man its sad to see this group and members getting cooked just because of the company not caring
I've been a K-POP fan since 2012, and with the expansion and globalization of the culture, more fans became close with their favorite group. And as we can see it with 4th Gen and 5th Gen (5th gen is 4.5 gen for me), some are lacking vocally, some of them are weak dancer and they rarely write their own rap while in other generation, real singers were there, freestylers were there and real rappers. Now we give them a sheet, they sing with a lot of autotune and make hard choreographies to find an excuse to not sing on music shows. well fans find them an excuse even though idols train years for their stamina to Increase and hit the notes they can naturally reach but some aren't trained and just sing perfromatively without trying to work on the note they did once for a song. Their songs only rely on haters talking about them when they are loved by the industry or apart from their fans. No one cares about them, and their haters are their own fans. This can lead their fans to think people are hating on them when the only hate is receiving is the hate their own fandom have been given to other groups. When they get valid criticism, Idol urges to falsely apologize as they know their fans are going to defend them. Idols aren't dumb. They'll apologize saying "don't judge" "I did my best and fans will label everything as hate and we are being too hard on them even though no one could careless about the haters except the group itself so that their narrative is "valid" and fans who thinks everyone hate them. An example I have is Lesserafim (I'm a fan, and these are just assumptions, I need clarification). When they debuted, Lesserafim were praised for singing live well among the other 4th gen groups that were doing lipsync. The only remark they got from everyone was that their vocals weren't good enough for debuting Idols that are supposedly train for that and their fans quickly jump by saying "They'll improve" "Yunjin is an opera singer" (which she constantly said she wasn't) "Sakura is good for someone coming out of J-Pop" (Putting down a whole industry just to praise your fave) "At least they know how to sing. Can you sing" (When it's not our job and thanks to us they live just by singing a song that was given to them) and "They just debuted" when they are meant to be prepared for it. All groups that were good singers but not great dancers were constantly compared to Lesserafim dance level even though kpop is both and Lesserafim and Hybe have been influencing kpop on being good dancer and visual and not singing well but whenever we ask about if they know how to sing, it is either portrayed as bullying or they are going to take the best member (who are lacking too) to represent the group or lastly blaming on the training time. If it was the training time, they have time between comeback, so why didn't they improve? They say Lesserafim are writing and producing their own songs, then when they get criticized for not singing their own songs, then say, "HYBE is giving them songs that are out of their ranges." For two years, some Lesserafim fans have been bragging about their inexistable skills while bullying other idols, and Lesserafim did nothing to stop their fans from being problematic cause they didn't give a damn and it didn't hurt them. And now that they perfomed at Coachella, we waited for those skills that were bragged around to show off. Performing at Coachella is a big deal after Blackpink was the first K-pop girl group to be invited. Coachella is a huge festival, and Lesserafim has been acting haughty for the last 2 years. Their first week was lacking, and all missed notes and even Chaewon who "carried" were bad, fans blamed it on nervousness. The second week, they put backtrack and autotune, but fans said they improved. Their whole argument was, "Why are you only picking the bad side?" Well, because it's Their job to sing well, so why point out the obvious? And also they don't sing phenomenally good to be even talking about those. After those horrible performances, Chaewon put a middle finger in her Insta Story and Sakura apologized litteraly saying she did her best and people shouldn't hate when she has been working for 13 years in this industry and that she focuses on trolls that come from her own fandom. After the Coachella performance, many newspapers said their performance was good and videos and Mr removed were taken down and surprisingly other Coachella performance, even Ateez's one weren't talked about this way this much especially when Lesserafim performed at the Sahara... And as yall know, Lesserafim's fan played the witch hunt and blocked every content in mass that gave valid criticism, and Lesserafim played the game. And those pseudo tiktokers who talk about POV: A hater is watching Lesserafim when only fearnots and people who were fearnots before cared about their performance. The fandom is Loud and Wrong and too big that they think the kpop world revolves around them. This a recent example, but Lesserafim aren't the first one to use their fans like this. BTS who are culturally appropriated, racist, nword, being misogynistic and everything, their apologies were lackluster, and now they scream at us, saying they are grown up and won't apologize and their fans are eating it. I'm only talking about both of them because they are part of my favorite groups, and they are the only one who did that stuff. Recently, ILLIT indirectly did when people constructively critized their singing, but they focused on hate and started crying cause people criticized their vocal when it's their job. We can't lose a tradition of idols being trained for year to be perfect in all areas, finding them excuses and them playing with our morals. IDOLS are using you. AGENCIES are using you. Making everyone believe that MHJ said BANG PD stole from her to make BTS was planned by HYBE, and we all jumped on MHJ throat like They know how to use us.
Like some fans said that Sakura's position is rapping and that's why she is not a good vocalist. I am sorry but this is not an excuse. Most groups in Kpop have rappers who have basic singing skills that suit the group's songs. Lisa, Dahyun, Yoona, Irene, Yeri and so on. Even in the west - Fifth Harmony is a group where all girls can sing and don't let me start with Little mix where everyone is a main singer. Japanese idols are just bad at singing because of their nasal voices. XG is a rapping group. In Baemon Asa and Ruka are mostly rappers, even though Asa has actually gained those basic singing skills that is amazing
tbh sakura is not even that great of a rapper either for it to be justifiable. her delivery is pretty standard and she doesn't really have a characteristic flow. some yg idols are amazing rappers but pretty mid vocalists (t.o.p, gdragon, cl) and it's fine bc they Show their rap prowess in all departments, whether its lyricism, flow, delivery, freestyle, you name it. sakura imo has yet to prove herself as a rapper
@@northrnstar I don’t consider her rapper either. I just said what some of their fandom point out. Actually, within 4th gen ggs I can’t name a good rapper except Soyeon
Japanesse dont have a nassal voice it just that AKB48 and a lot a popular Idol in japan use a really bubly pop song.but you Can also have différent voices.
You've never listened to XG have you? Or NiziU? Japanese have "nasal" voices? Ok...Plus there are many more Japanese singers with different tones. (Like LiSA) This is just a Sakura problem.
@@onceuponamelody Welcome to reality. Most Japanese girls really have nasal voices. Just because someone is able to obtain it as Maya, Jurin or Cocona, does not mean that most people are. Check for info. I don’t defend Sakura since I don’t stan Ls but a fact is a fact
idk why yall think this is such a good thing, ppl are bringing lsfm down in order to prop up those other groups, most of the time yall dont even stan nmixx and kiof, put that energy into streaming their songs
@@baggyjeans127 but its not netizen fault tho that lsrfm doing bad vocally. I means when you are bad doing your job, you will get criticized somehow no? Its true anyway that some group are getting attention after illit/lsrfm controversy but it just how kpop industry works
@@Winternight-mj2yu getting death threats and gr*pe threats isn't criticism, and both lsfm and illit can sing, theyve alr proven this in their most recent performances (lsfm at their fan concert and mtv, illit during their university performance and their perf w JYP)
it's not a good thing because the same kpop stans dragging lsrf now used to drag these groups to filth too and are only token stanning them out of spite. This isn't genuine support and shouldn't be celebrated.
“1. I don’t stan Lesseraphim” Neither do I. “2. I like 2nd Gen groups.” Same here, my person. Let’s be friends. I’ll talk about the one group that my mind will never betray and you can give me song recs.
my only complain with lesserafim is that if sakura eunchae kazuha were good rappers i would not mind it *ok they are the rappers of the grp it makes sense* but that's not the case i don't remember wheN was it the last time any lesserafim song had a *proper rap* They are basically just strong dancers and the vocal members (yunjin and chaewon specially yunjin even she had classical background is doing the bare minimum COMPARED TO HER AMMOUNT OF LINES)
this video pretty much sums up my thoughts on this situation. like you said, i don't expect every single idol to be celine dion's lost child, but i Do and i Should expect some basic levels of quality since, surprise surprise, being an idol is also a job. im not asking for a full group of powerhouses, but at the very least a group that doesn't flinch when asked to sing fully live with no backtrack or technical touchups.
Given that anybody can learn to sing decently I find it insane that a group of people hand picked to be performers from thousands of candidates can't sing _their_own_songs_. No hate to the girls, I actually really like Le Sserafim. But come on, stop making excuses. There are jobs for beautiful people who can't sing. You can be a model, a dancer, an actor, no need to be an idol.
Yeah there are plenty of kpop idols who are not strong singers but they can at least hold their own for a few lines or have a different role (dance/rap) while others are strong singers.. I don't need everyone in an idol group to sing well but when a group like Le Sserafim is mostly bad singers it is an issue. Even their best singer does not stand out compared to the better singers from other groups. So they can't let their weaker singers hide behind their better ones like other groups can.
Its strange that the oneus of choosing a different career is on the idol and not the industry… there have been visual positions and even visual groups since forever in kpop. If there really are too many subpar vocal groups then maybe companies should brand their groups better,,, no?
@@kidawesomeness123 The problem here is that Le Sserafim feels so much lower then other groups both currently and before them. There are idols in some groups that are not strong singers but it is not common to see a group of mostly weak singers. While yes the industry has issues and this is a company's problem, but also other idols have gotten vocal lessons outside of their company before if their companies don't cover it, so we also should not make excuses for Le Sserafim.
They don't even sing the whole song lol They divide lines among members, so at most they sing only less than a minute, some even only a few seconds 😅 They don't even sound like the recorded version sometimes wtf, esp. Eunchae and Sakura. So weird. Did they hire a ghost singer or something?
say what you want about Kim Garam, BUT before she was kicked out Yunjin, Chaewon, & Kim Garam all balanced each other out well. from TONE(Kim had the best tone of the 3-imo-) Belting, & Riffing….. once she left it was all left to Chae & Yunjin to carry the group vocally. Which seems to be too much for them to do Live when the mic is fully on.
Okay where is this narrative that Garam was a good singer came from??? she was literally on par with Eunchae (not a good thing). There was a viral video of her not even being able to sing on pitch WHILE STANDING STILL with Eunchae.
Does anyone remember Gfriend? They come from the same company and even as rookies the girls were stable. Yuju and Eunha carried the most vocal weight but the others kept up and were decent and they only improved comeback after comeback. And don't forget Taemin, hw went from the weakest member to have a solo career with interesting vocal performance.
Disbanding Gfriend was their biggest mistake, imo. But originally they are not technically from the same company, as there was a buy-out merging between two companies.
Mediocrity was normalized and glorified thanks to Blackpink, the GG decline because the group that leads them was incredibly mediocre. But obviously no one is going to say anything to them because they are not from HYBE.
Some members of BTS are also quite poor live vocally (not their rappers). The two biggest groups of 3rd gen (BTS/Blackpink) were great with stage performances (for the most part), had good visuals, but were lacking in singing in many respects. Then you get 4th gen who follows that same formula (attractive, great stage performance, but lacks vocally) but to the nth.
I think it's absurd that an agency like hybe doesn't have singing lessons as its main focus. I can see that even the most famous groups with long careers sing at a mediocre
HYBE's formation is the result of BigHit's success with BTS. Anyone who's making excuses for HYBE note that BHS was JYP's songwriter for years and saw the development of Wonder Girls and on top of that he developed BTS. He KNOWS it takes YEARS of training with no guarantees to the trainees to debut PLUS the continuous process of elimination throughout those years to end up with the best of the best to debut. it's clear as day both he and the sub-labels don't want to take the TIME and PATIENCE to develop a girl group of substance.
Hybe kinda is the reason why mediocrity is awarded in kpop today... they get away with bad vocals just because of the concepts and marketing strategies... I don't want to start a fight but that's literally what they did with bts... they appealed to the mental health campaigns suddenly making a huge switch in their concepts when mental health sensitivity was becoming a huge topic globally in 2015. That literally was the turning point for bts. There were numerous more talented groups than them but they hit it big just because the differentiating factor was hybe's marketing strategies.
hybe is the late stage capitalism of kpop. more money by training less, pump out more groups = more profit. another really bad problem this creates for them is how the public views them; personally, I don't trust any single future group that hybe creates to be actually one of quality, and maybe, just maybe, other people feel the same way as I do. unless there's rapid improvement for these girls, i trust that hybe explicitly cuts corners for every single group that they created.
As a kpop fan and listener since 2nd gen (started with TVXQ too, Jaejoong's vocal had me by the chockhold back then and Infinite's The eye is my fave till now because even the rappers were showcasing good vocals), vocals will always matter to me. I'm not saying I don't care about idols' visuals, personalities or the chemistry between the members because I do. But 2nd gen groups have conditioned me to believe that good and stable vocals should be a given thing in an idol group. Especially since it's something you can train and improve on if you have good resources. Yes, we can choose the groups we want to support and Le Sserafim's weak vocals isn't that big of a deal. But since they're one of the top GG right now, like you said, it's gonna make the companies complacent and will probably start debuting groups that are not ready yet and won't put effort into vocals anymore - less resources put into training and improving the vocals of the members, means more resources for other places (let be honest, Kpop is still a business and most companies are always gonna choose the route that cost them less money but make more profits) Also, I don't know about new fans, but I've heard and experienced again and again (since 2nd gen), non-kpop listeners dissing Kpop and stereotyping idols as attractive people with no talents, just there to look pretty. So with the current trend of singing/vocals don't matter is like embracing the stereotypes that Kpop haters have, instead of proving those stereotypes wrong.
I was told by a Le SSeraphim fan that singers don't need any vocal training. I was like, tell me your age is 10 years below the time your brain is fully developed at 25. 😂
It was so normal to criticise idols in TALENTED groups like Sehun from Exo for his weak vocals and rap, and members from BTS like J-hope for his poor rap and lyrics, or Jin and V for their lack of vocals, yet these artists GREW from these criticisms and took it as feedback. Meanwhile you have Le Sserafim (who I like!) bitching about the pressures of debuting under Hybe and whatnot. DON’T YOU THINK SEHUN OR CHANYEOL HAD THE SAME PRESSURES FOR BEING SM’S NEXT BOY GROUP AFTER SHINEE? SM was and still is the biggest company in Korea. They made Kpop what it is now. But look at how much these guys have improved. Heck, Chanyeol’s vocals are so beautiful that he’s sings kdrama osts, and within the group, especially in their more recent albums, Sehun’s rap parts are unironically my favourite (although I can’t forget about you ‘shawty imma party till the sun down’). Anyway. Le Sserafim. Get ya act together. You have an idol in the group whose career is older than some of her fans. You have an opera singer. You have the daughter of a theatre actress, meaning she grew up around real talent and had the privileges to see from childhood what this business is all about. Le Sserafim have the potential to be strong, but I think even they don’t want to be strong and that means they’re lazy af.
@@AA-ed6ek then why does everyone spread that’s she’s an opera singer? Anyway if that’s all you bitches take away from my comment, goes to show where your biased perspectives lie 😘
@@minnie4106The rumour was started by their fans to push that she had more talent than she actually did which only backfired on her. It just proves that the fans incessant coddling is what’s adding fuel to the fire.
Tbh, it’s HYBE’s fault isn’t it. The way kpop it is right now. When BIG 3 still dominated the industry, they set the standard. YG for rap, SM for vocal, JYP for dance. But when HYBE came on top, they started to produce groups with focus on dance skills with lesser vocal and rap skills. And that’s become the standard now (4th gen).
I'm a fearnot and the vocals have been bothering me for a long time, but not necessarily in the way that they seem to bother most people. I'm along the lines of your closing argument. These companies will absolutely do the bare minimum where they can, and leave their idols hanging when they need support. It's infuriating to see the dogpiling that happens when a group slips up, and pretty much the only thing they can do is wait for the outrage machine to produce another target for the netizens. That being said, LS really does need to get their vocals to a healthier place. Coachella was a step in the right direction, but as a fan that hopes they'll have a long career, they need way more steps to get to a steadier place.
Is it true that lesserafim doesn't have a recording behind? Read a comment saying that and i tried searching in yt but didnt find one... If yes no wonder they wont upload those cause like dont want the public to see that their studio version is like 90% patched and fix by machine softwares Ps send link if there is one
The only time I saw a "behind the scenes" was in the documentary where Sakura was struggling to sing a part in Fearless And yeah she didn't sound great there
I don't care what the clueless stans say. you're fave is a kpop idol and they SHOULD KNOW HOW TO SING. if they can dance but can't sing for shit, then they should just become a backup dancer. sadly, most companies focus more on visuals and dancing and totally disregard vocals.
it doesn't matter the genre, if i suddenly notice a recorded musical performance of any kind by anyone, i go to look at live performance. if the live product isn't very similar in ability to the recorded, i'm gone......
Same here. I wanted to be into LSFM but I just couldn't. I imagine ALL the girls who might not have been as attractive or whatever but were amazing vocalists being passed over for people who are tone deaf or can't hold a note. I personally can't support that.
They didn't. The girls are pretty and therefore they will get away with having very little talent and creativity because kpop's primary audiences are children.
Honestly it's getting annoying. Le sserfirm gets vocals lessons. Source music really need to make sure lesserafim stay on top of vocals lessons. Source music needs to learn to protect their artists better.
it all comes down to taking up space that other talented people coulve filled. they get paid to sing and they cannot even deliver that. i do not understand why you would stan a kpop music group, if they cant sing.
Because people are vain and shallow and care more about vanity and what's popular than actual talent, creativity or originality. It's why more attractive and pretty groups (Twice, Ive, Le Sserafim, Blackpink) will always be privileged and more praised than groups who are actually talented and musically inclined (Dreamcatcher, Mamamoo, Dia, GFriend). It's so obvious who became an idol for fame and money, and who became an idol for artistic expression, genuine interest in music as well as fame and money 😂
YoonA is the "weakest" vocalist in SNSD but still did great in every single stage and performance in term of "vocal" and "singing" eventhough it has a dancing or just standing and while she is the weakest in her group but she is on the same level as main or lead vocalist in some group.
fourth and fifth gen vocals aren't as great as 2nd and 3rd gen, but there's no group besides Illit and Le Serrafim where Yoona could be the main or lead singer
Yeah, They really need to improve their vocals, but what people are doing to them on social media is not cool..Giving hate instead of support doesn't help at all.
There’s a huge difference between them being bad singers and being unable to sing their own songs. Not being able to properly sing their own songs is what is pissing me off. I hope they improve.
I think its a good thing that le sserafim are getting the level of criticism that they do get (not the hate, that's just cruel and unreasonable) because it will force them to improve... the fact that they have been in this industry for like 2 years and have gotten away with consistently bad vocal performance is kinda scary, and will definitely dilute the industry. If we take what happened with twice, although the controversy only really got louder between 2020 and 2021, it shifted something not only in twice but in the entirety of jyp. like as soon as those encore stages happened with twice, the girls have put in work to improve... the weak vocals in twice (primarily sana and mono, two of my three biases - admittedly these were visual picks rather than vocal picks) are still far from amazing vocals, but dang the horror of bad live vocals really put the fear in god in those girls to force them to improve enough to carry their lines AT THE VERY LEAST. but it wasn't just twice, IT WAS THE ENTIRETY OF JYP, which was kinda a little funny to watch. Like ITZY does not have amazing strength in their vocals and their songs don't really require it either, BUT IT CANNOT BE DENIED THAT the girls do not shy away from a live performance, and actually almost pushed for more and more live vocals after what happened to twice (idk if it was their management or the girls themselves) almost to say that we can sing our songs (not that they were trying to shade their seniors but clearly wanted to ensure fans knew they could sing their songs and were able to carry any performance) and lets not even begin to talk about the vocals in NMIXX. Literally the most annoying part of this for me is that out of those three girl groups TWICE ITZY and NMIXX, NMIXX are the only ones I don't listen to because of the genre of songs but I have convinced myself to download and stan a few songs if not for the fucking phenomenal talent of the girls. this is to say that hopefully hybe takes this like how jyp took their criticism for their vocals, although jyp does not have the most naturally talented singers with the most amazing natural range, you can see how much each of the vocals and pretty much most of the members have literally had to push themselves so far just to sound good in their own songs, and from their grow enough to explore and experiment and even enjoy singing.
i wish le sserafim didn't get 'celebrity syndrome'. it's so unattractive and tarnishes their image. I already wasn't a fan, but their attitudes solidify it.
Theyve regressed vocally as they havent sang any songs in their vocal range. Theyve all been such low songs along with the fact they havent taken many vocal lessons that its no wonder the girls are struggling. I feel bad for them :(
The whole “performance-based group” thing is so weird. Like sorry but I don’t care if you can do backflips or lift your leg over your head! At the end of the day I’m listening to your music (voice) not your foot steps!
No one is expecting all idols to be groundbreaking vocalists. They should be able to at least perform their own parts. Also the fact that Sakura and Kuzuha arent in the vocal line doesnt mean much. The only time it is okay to have mid vocals (you still need to do decently live), imo, is when an idol is just great at something else. Kai is well highlighted here. Lisa is another example. Theyre both such good dancers and performers that i can forgive their lack in impeccable vocals.
the thing i hate about kpop is the fans can't take someone else's opinion, let alone suggesting some objectivity that negates their opinion. like singing skills will always have an objective quality but also a huge subjective aspect to it, which people can't understand i swear... also the fact that any "negative" thing, aka constructuve criticism, is called hate and dismissed. some groups are just better singers than others, and that can be argued to an extent as to who has more skill and whatever but when the gap in skill is large enough i don't understand how fans still praise them like they are so much better?? idk just some thoughts
I think the problem is also on the idols itself. I've seen countless of idols who went their way to hire vocal coaches w their own money just because they have the drive to improve. Leseraffirm or wtv the spelling is, i'm assuming they already got their salaries and do have the resources to hire someone. Is it their responsibility to hire these for themselves? No, its the company's but in life, you can't just keep comparing what is given to others that isn't given to you. If they WANT to improve, they will find a way. Like what my mom would always tell me lmao "If you want to do it, you'll find a way, if you don't, you'll find many ways to give excuses"
I generally don't focus on groups i don't stan so i rarely comment about them. For the Le Sserafim i like some of their songs but i don't stan them in general (not because of their vocals but it's just.. nothing catched my attention). I'd never go to their concert, however, i used to attend some kpop festivals, with various groups performing. So theoretically i could be able to listen to them without attending the concert specifically for them. And tbh if i heard such weak performance after hours of waiting, i'd be totally dissapointed. So my point is - yes, ppl have every right to criticize (not hate) the weak performance, even if they're not a fan of specific group.
i feel so bad for lsfm bc i did used to listen to their songs, but i’ve got to agree with the constructive criticism given here. hybe cannot get away with producing groups, with little to no vocal capabilities bc that hurts the idols a lot more than they think.
You spoke about EVERYTHING I felt about the isssue. It's not that the girls are terrible and cant sing at all but they aren't amazing and def need some work and it's not a bad thing to admit. I stan groups both stong vocally and not so much and I don't expect every group to be exo, Tvxq etc. but yeah the bare minimum is holding a note and singing in a way that'll leave their vocal cords healthy. I also wish hybe would more at each members voice and change their sound a little as the songs are def too low for them which is not their strong suit. Also it'd be great to give them more training/ change their techniques and separate their techinques for live singing and studio singing it'd only make their artists lives easier. Thank u for this video! Totally agree with what u said.
I used to be a big Le Sserafim fan but ive cooled on them a little because of their vocals. Their stage presence isnt enough for me anymore. They need to improve before they lose more fans.
lesserafim should go on a hiatus for like half a year and then come back stronger (with improved vocals, of course!) that may really work and doesn't affect the concept(I have faith in them), hybe really should change their practices too with their groups too
New gens kpop stand try so hard to normalized bad vocal in kpop because for them its all about the dance and choreograph. The more hard choreograph the more talented the idols is. But for someone who started since second gen kpop we all know vocal and dance is the most important. That what kpop idol meaning to be. If they only good at dance and not at vocal. What the difference between the idol and the back dancer? Same with the vocal. They are not an idols if they only good at vocal not dance.
there are many performance groups that have good vocals out there so to hear the excuse that le sserafim is a performance group and that they don't need to focus on vocals is baffling to me. twice is a performance group and they can sing live. jyp dance groups have great singers and they mainly focus on dance (2pm, miss a, got7, and itzy). i just find it weird to use that excuse
I feel like something people aren't talking is how this is a greater trend of hybe not caring that much able their girls. Like I'm sorry bit this would NEVER fly with txt and you can say lesserafim's is source music but look at illit and arguable new jeans. The point of the matter is hybe uts in the effort to train their male trainees to be all round and amazing but with female trainees they half-ass it.
I mean before we only had one or 2 members per group that can't sing and it's usually the visuals. Now it's all visuals with horrible vocals. 😅 I think companies are prioritizing visuals over talent nowadays...
Performance based groups don’t mean they can’t sing, that’s just a dumb excuse. Performance based groups are like Big Bang or 2NE1 and they sing just fine.
I fucking love BigBang They r the reason for my extremely high performance standards in boy groups They have it all Haven't been able to move on from them
@@kpopnimation he is his own standard of dancing He can and has made the stage shake just by standing and staring into the camera Watch doom dada mama performance
*Some corrections:*
- I apologize for mispronouncing BtoB! It’s “B to B” and not what I said.
- Some people have brought up the fact that Killing Voice has a lot of pitch correction and playback and after finding this out, I do agree that it's not a fair comparison to Le Sserafim's raw vocals. I used Sehun as an example of a weak vocal who can sing his lines well since he's known for his improvement. I was not aware of the playback because Sehun in this clip is actually singing Kai's lines so I presumed that part was live. I've linked a fancam of Sehun singing a part in a ballad but the fans are really loud so it's a little hard to hear. I genuinely think Sehun can sing on key and he's been praised for his improvement. th-cam.com/video/ijukrahw2Tk/w-d-xo.html
girl HYBE ABOUT TO GET YOU 😭😭😭
Btob sounds way better imho. 😂
killing voice is live, there's pitch correction but no one lipsyncs. I agree that it's not fair to use that as comparison with raw vocals, but it's not like Killing Voice is *that* far away from what they sound live.
@@lanbon22fr I've been calling them that for a while now 😭
Should vocalists sing? The never ending, unanswered kpop question
😭
Does vocals matter in kPOP ? 😭
LMAO
@@baldboyfriend8589SM, JYP, YG and some Hybe groups say hi 😭
@@baldboyfriend8589there are a lot of good kpop singers the one I can remember rn is mamamoo , Akdong , nmixx [these are groups there are a lot of soloist as well] it's just that hybe gets support which is why they keep pushing out mediocre singers the whole thing is so unfair not only for the audience but the singers as well[are subjected to bull. ing from the public]
One comment I read left me speechless and it came from a fearnot. "Eunchae's voice sounds nothing like the recorded version" not because of the lack of stability, they meant the sound is completely different. And they were right. She has a deep voice and in the recorded version it sounds high pitched. Obviously there's going to be problems if their voices are so overly produced in the studio till the point of sounding unrecognizable. Also is not healthy for them to sing without knowing how not to harm themselves, that might be the reason why they're regressing vocally.
you can watch video on yt where daisy (ex-momoland) is telling about line distribution, and she said that while recording, if one member cannot hit the right note, they can have other member sing said member's line and then blend two voices together. i'm not saying that its the case with lssrfm but still that happens more frequently than we think ig
@@krizismenya2171 i Saw that, it does sound like they might put chaewon's voice over hers.
are u sure? her voice sounds deep in the recording too
@@xrrgr at least not in anti fragile, fire in the belly or perfect night. It doesn't sound deep enough.
@@melisacaceres8740 hmm, it sounds like her tone to me. maybe u guys might be getting confused bc of tuning in her voice on the track and her bad performance here from coachella , but on the track it just sounds like she’s singing through her nose. i can still tell it’s her voice
What even is a performance based group? Dancers pretending to sing?
Essentially yes. Clearly their dancing is more stringer than their singing and has been their main focus since day 1
@@watashi5700 I've always thought performance-based groups are those that focus on giving explosive or engaging performances and not focus on robotic choreo but more on the immersion/participation of the audience and live singing. BigBang comes to mind. Maybe it's best to just call them dance-based groups.
@@iagreewithyou3478yes you're right! That's what I call a performance-based group. Most of these new groups coming out are just dance-based groups. Their songs heavily rely on auto-tune so that it would somehow sound good. That's why there's such a huge difference when you hear them singing live vs the recorded version.
Hyuna is an example of a performance based artist. Except she can actually sing live.
It seems.
The fact that baekhyun today still takes vocal lessons despite being a phenomenal singer explains exactly why he is so. You can't have an ego about training while already debuted and you should have that hunger to learn, get better. That's what helps you.
They do take vocal lessons though. They have a vocal coach at Hybe. You can say that the training from Hybe isn't sufficient, but don't discredit that they do try to improve vocally.
@@Vax_XXIV I guess what rubbed me the wrong way was their attitude of "screw you haters we did great 😋" after their Coachella performance instead of saying we'll try to improve next time. It definitely came across very arrogant & like "we're at a stage where subpar quality is ok and we can pass with it".
@@irakulkarni5445 I personally didn’t see them say that. I was there at their Coachella performance and saw a lot of live performances that day and so I personally did not feel they did that bad. But I can understand if they did say they don’t need training at all or something like that how that would be annoyingn
@@Vax_XXIV look at Sakura's letter following their Coachella performance
@@irakulkarni5445 she literally said she felt even more encourage able (?) to practice more. People been saying lessera girls have bad attitude while the whole time they always practicing and never seen satisfied with themselves. The thing was, sakura letter was meant for her fans and it's already hinted she has anxiety and stage fright since their first documentary. That's why they're more understanding with the letter
The regression vocally of lsrf needs to be talked about more, especially w yunjin
tbh she hasn’t regressed it’s the fact that she struggles with stability that makes it sound like her vocals have gotten worse
chaewon has regressed because of the tone they want her to use now instead of her natural singing voice that she used in iz*one
They always used autotune n coachella exposed their true voices end of discussion
@@nnnn-sc2imat least better than Jack Dough Face
@@MG-hs1ybat least le sserafim is more likable than Jack Dough Face
I am all for more vocals. It's the voice that keeps me with a group.
Totally agree. I'm a Gen 1 fan, and all members of the groups are singers or rappers.
And the vocals of a group is literally what set it apart from everyone else, its like their identity, thats why some of the ggs like nmixx, aespa, twice, itzy is very distinctive.
Same here
then you dont enjoy music
Just noticed this is probably why I don’t rly listen to kpop anymore cause I can find good production AND vocal talent in other genres ://
a performance based group is ITZY. and they still sing live and sound good.
Or even Nmixx can be considered performance based (with their title tracks at least) and they are well known for their vocal prowess
Agree all of them even if they aren't strong vocalists but they are good and stable but i always said that they need at least one strong vocalists i thought they should've debut one of the 3 main vocalists of nmixx with them
@@hindosman7186 I only disagree because I love Nmixx's current lineup too much to want any of them in a different group, even if that group is Itzy
Tbh nmixx is a all rounder group @@gingersummer4005
@@gingersummer4005 lool they are soo good but i felt they should added one of them to itzy they need a strong vocalists like haewon for example because she's really good dancer and will suit the group concept
My issue is why debut a group that don’t have good vocals? I thought the whole thing about training for years is to insure the idols the company debut under are at least good at singing?
actually lsfm barely trained, it's what's very interesting these days bcuz new groups keep debuting with often barely 1 year of training and it's why they're bad. Babymonster members all have many years of training and they are so good, this just shows how training is important and that the eyars aren't for nothing
@@elsa7594 I’m more so commenting about sakura who has had years of experience as an idol
tbh i think the reason hybe debuted them so early on is to cash in on the post izone hype
@@elsa7594 If only they got good songs man 😭. It feels like YG is stuck in the 2010's in terms of music, like they keep trying to reproduce the same success using the same formula but the times have changed and now they just sound dated. Babymon's songs sound like Blackpink rejects, and Blackpink songs sound like 2NE1 derivatives. The thing is, the girls are genuinely really talented but it feels like YG is pushing the Blackpink/2NE1 concept on them instead of working with them to bring out their own sound. In that regard, KIOF's member based concept approach was super smart and effective and actually not that far off from how YG used to produce their groups. To me it's ironic that a nugu company (S2 ent) group was able to produce a group that feels more YG than any group they've recently come out with.
Because this formula worked with BTS
I'm a fan of Le Sserafim, but I swear those girls started regressing vocally at some point. Glad to see them working and getting better
They can not sing and are definitely not improving Sakura been in the business for 20 years, she shouldn’t be this bad there’s no excuse
For kpop fans..its face fast...if u r beautiful ..u can debut these days....mediocre vocals
@@tashasmithy5795 In all fairness, Sakura hasn't been getting the resources from any of the companies she's been under. And I have been through her idol life before she was in Kpop at all. Sakura has improved a lot and has gotten a lot more stable but the company honestly does not give her the right lines. Or any of the group for that matter, they compensate the lack of higher notes for lower notes that do not suit them because they are more soprano than alto.
I noticed the problems since Anti-fragile. In defense of Easy, there's no glide in the vocal melody and the jump from notes are large (like in " kiss... me... swipji ahneul..."). It's not hard, per se but if you're onstage and have bad breath support, it become real obvious when you miss the note for something near that.
For Eunchae's clogged nasality and Kazuha's slurring though, I have no defence. They legit have no real training period probably and SOMU is not reaching out to vocal trainers post-debut.
@@tashasmithy5795tbh i think her voice sounded a lot stronger in coachella compared to easy encore, which is improvement a little
Honestly, Gfriend being disbanded is kind of good for LSF at the beginning. Imagine having a senior sister group with stable and strong vocalist - the comparison will be crazy
They lip synced too, if you watch ANY apple stage, you'll see that everything sounds exactly the same
@@dgls127the difference is that they didn’t need to, they could actually sing
You should watch their old performances with live vocals....
2nd>>>3rd>>>4th and 5th Gen are worse except few groups like nmixx, babymon
@@asrithav4056 nmixx is 4th gen group
@@asrithav4056 nmixx are 4th gen. I think you meant kiof
Performance-based group??? Isn’t all kpop group technically performance-based… 😭 the choreography, singing, visual. Fans need to stop making excuses for their favs. 😭💅
Even if you want to argue that there's NOT performance based groups, uh... there are so many kpop groups that deliver both performance and vocals. Literally any SM group, Kiss of Life, Mamamoo (I said what I said. If people think these ladies are just vocals, I highly recommend watching any live performance they've done and reconsidering), Gfriend, Dreamcatcher, Purple Kiss...
I don't dislike LS (they release bops, hybe definitely knows how to do that), but performance based is not an excuse.
Maybe they forgot that performance also requires the bare minimum of singing well.
Yes, idols in Korea are not even seen as real singers and get treated differently. They are technically just performers and not real "artists"
@@Dokemoni I could've sworn BigBang has successfully broken that stereotype long ago and helped open doors for the younger self producing groups to be respected as artists as well. I just turned my head away from kpop for a year or two, and we're back to square one because of some groups from frickin Hybe.
the problem here lies with company stans...they give Hype Co new groups a pass for lack of skills. Company won't waste resources to train them since fans will literally support all groups they debuted with minimal effort and brag them as performance based groups.
I agree with what you said in the video, but you left out one VERY important reason why they NEED to improve their vocals and technique, and that reason is their health. singing so much with such bad technique WILL cause them physical harm in the long run, and if they don't start working on fixing it soon, it WILL become irreversible and permanent and they might end up not being able to sing at all and in a lot of pain. we can already hear a lot of vocal regression from lack of practice even in the members that are considered to be the better singers in the group, vocal training is something you HAVE to maintain constantly, even the best vocalists have to practice ALL HE TIME, to make sure their voices stay up to per and healthy, let alone improve. what HYBE is doing to those girls (and all of their other artists, if we're being real here...) with their lack of proper vocal training is actually criminal. They are causing them damage by giving them songs that are way out of their vocal comfort zone and then don't give them the training to do those songs in a healthy and safe way. I wouldn't be surprised if more than half their artists end their careers early with permanent vocal damage. This is just sad and very worrying.
An even better example than Kai would be his BFF Taemin. Taemin, as you probably know, didn't even have a single line in SHINee's debut song because he couldn't sing the lines he originally got. but he worked his @ss off to improve his vocals to the point that he's the one covering most of Jonghyun's lines (including most of his most iconic high notes), and Jonghyun is considered to be one of the best male vocalists in kpop history. he became a better vocalist then most main vocalists in kpop, and when we talk about technique and vocal versatility, he's actually one of the best, you'll find it hard to find many in kpop with better technique and vocal versatility (there ARE vocalists that are naturally better than him, but when it comes to technique alone and his control of it, he's pretty high up on the list...). his story proves that if you REALLY want to you can improve no matter what, he was just as busy as those idols are now (maybe even more, he was also going to school, maintaining his place as one of the top 3 students in his school, competing in Math competitions, and winning, and pretty much LIVING in the dance studio, on top of schedules...) and he STILL made sure to make time EVERY SINGLE DAY for vocal practice.
Thank you for bringing this up, this is definitely a point that gets left out in the conversation! Taemin is a fantastic example. I love Shinee but Exo is my ult group who I know in and out so I felt more confident speaking about Kai!
@@whenfinish understandable. And yeah, every time I see this discussion come up, no one mentions the physical harm this neglect causes the artists, and I would think that's one of the most important things, or at least it SHOULD be, for both sides of the argument...
I think what you said perfectly describes Sakura. She was a good vocalist in her kid Broadway days but it seems like she regressed a lot during HKT, most likely due to not practicing. It seems like singing with an unhealthy technique has done a ton on her as it looks like singing physically pains her lol. You can tell by how it looks like she's going to cry in the Encores. Even in Coachella, it looked like she was trying a TON to stay on pitch throughout the performance (which, props to her, she did way better than expected.)
@yoyoonah she might have reached that point of permanent damage, for her sake I hope not, but if she did, there might not be much she CAN do at this point to improve...
It already happened with Sakura
unfortunately
YG taking so many years to debut Babymonster was a good move because all these girls are impressive singers on top of having great dancing and stage presence! I just think Hybe is debuting groups too quickly and not training them enough.
They're not exactly impressive singers, they are confident singers.
They have a long way to go becoming impressive.
@@AB-yk2pq Compared to what we see today in K-pop... it IS impressive!
Well, the reason why YG only debuted a new group is cause they also usually don‘t have two girl groups active at the same time but with BP they knew they had to get the girls resign at least as a group or they would've been doomed. But yea, BM have good vocals, not the most outstanding but with the standards being lower and lower, they‘re one of the best to come out of recent times.
@@Trish.65Yes, if you're comparing them to Sakura and Shuhua, but it isn't hard being impressive in comparison to them💀
Baby Monster's vocalists aren't even above average in comparison to vocalists who debuted in last years.
I have a hard time supporting yg because I hate the music, but it's hard to criticize when they came back with actual singers this generation. I don't particularly care for the member they're pushing as usual but they're OK. Wish the music was better ofc ofc
TVXQ’s vocals were insane and to think that they were all only teenagers too, especially Changmin and Junsu
Yes them two and Jaejoong can outsing Le Sserafilm like a walk in the park.
@@kylediagon5444 what do you mean jaejoong was literally the main vocalist of dbsk and visual we cant compare him to lsf like that yunho outsing lsf and the whole hybe groups is the right way to say it
@@monotzukokuureshii those hybe groups will get crushed if they had a vocal battle against 2nd Gen. SM groups.
Sadly tvxq aren’t attractive
@@olilondonpavethewayforkpop funniest joke I've ever heard🤣
I think something that’s really important to talk about in this discussion is the increasing prevalence and dependence of lip syncing. Idol groups sang live more often in 2nd and 3rd gen, and therefore they had to be good at singing. But now that lip syncing is so ubiquitous and normalized, companies feel like they don’t have to train idols in singing as much because they can get away with it.
And autotune. Technology has come so far and it seems fandoms don’t keep up. No shade to groups as everyone globally uses it for singing performances but a perfect performance could be enhanced. Not always representative of a members talent or lack of it. I agree with you!
I agree with you mostly, but there still are some companies and groups (notably groups under jyp like stray kids, itzy, and nmixx) who do sing live a vast majority of the time while also having difficult choreos
@@F1cs9b61autotuneeeee is the root of evil in newer groups
I think lip syncing is so popular now because cuz fans are so obsessed with really cool and difficult dances that I think songs are becoming difficult to perform while both singing and dancing if that makes sense
@@badbitchvibes9807 I agree! The whole live thing is so strange. If there is a mic… there could be enhancements (autotune). The whole perfect every time in every way is just not realistic. What’s wrong with imperfections? That shows it’s real imo
What I hate the most is even when people give genuine, constructive, and nicely worded criticism, someone will say something along the lines of “Well if you’re such an expert why don’t you perform?”
I’m not the ARTIST being paid thousands, possibly millions to dance AND sing, who *should have* been given extensive training for years to do so
Also, you dont need to have experience in singing to know if something sounds subpar...
And does someone force you to buy their product or do they pay them with your taxes?
I don't hate Le-Sserafim, but it's just something off that I can't explain. They're definitely one of the groups, that I wouldn't mind taking a year or two hiatus to improve and do some little promotions there. I hate to see any idol get hate, but it's upsetting that fans are denying it out of fear of looking like haters or feeling like because they are their fans, they must be hardcore fans and lie for them or their company even when it's obvious. The hate is definitely too much, but I wish they had better training, as I'm tired of all the excuses. They have good music and stage presence, but the vocals don't match with everything else.
All this time I thought I was being a hater but it's literally they can't sing their own songs. And performance group is funny when they don't dance particularly well compared to other 4th gen groups
True fans know they lack vocal skills however we never denied that, we just wanted haters to stop hating them for every single thing they do which they make issues out of, they literally kept getting death threats and r-word threats and every single video or post with them in it the haters use it as chances to insult them over their singing skills even if the the posts are unrelated to their singing. Ngl, the girls somehow regressed vocally after debuting, chaewon and yunjin were superb stable singers but after debuting in lesserafim, the company giving them songs out of their range, i feel like somehow theyre not singing with the same quality before debuting, as for sakura, undeniably i can see shes not the best singer but during her izone era and japanese idol era, she was decent tho i feel like due to the lack of vocal training during those eras she damaged her vocals so i can only hope proper vocal training now can help her improve (which i can see during their other live performances), as for eunchae, there werent a lot of opportunities to hear her live vocals due to having less lines during their first year, but in their live year end performances and encores she was pretty decent and that was why there wasnt really any controversies regarding her singing, but somehow it got more noticeable during easy era, the song was clearly not in her range which makes her voice appear deep and unstable and just got worse for their coachella performance. These are just some things i cant deny as a fan since their debut, I hope the company gives them the proper training they need so they no longer further damage their vocal chords singing with the wrong techniques. I can only blame the company as well for rushing their debut without having them undergo proper vocal training. Don’t hate the girls, hate the company.
They're just a money grab riding off of Chaewon and Sakuras' success in IZONE. They aren't particularly strong in any aspect; performance, vocals, rap, dance, stage presence etc.
It doesn't help that each release seems to be dickriding trends, eg. Smart. Or just not that great or memorable
There's just nothing exceptional about them, compared to groups like Aespa, Baby Monster, Kiss of Life, XG, IVE, New Jeans, Young Posse.
Its unfortunate because they have the potential, both through funds and talent
They are kind of getting the gfriend treatment but with a different concept. It’s too bad they think using izone members is enough but it’s not going to be if they don’t improve their vocals or show something we haven’t seen before.
@@zebethlia This is spot-on. It makes me sad to see how popular le sserafim is when they are lacking in so many aspects of a successful kpop idol group (their singing, dancing, stage presence, performance, entertainment, etc. skills) and other groups who deserve it aren't as popular. It's not a good influence for aspiring stars as well. I hope companies stop abandoning skills for clearly superficial imaging.
What else makes it worse is that HYBE released a few live performances where fans are delusional praising them for improving their vocals so fast… when you can hear the heavy heavy pitch correction. I’m confused how fans can’t differentiate live vocals vs backtrack vs pitch correction. Can hybe please invest in their artists instead of treating them like cash cows?
seriously, the amount of fans that are completely blind to a backing track is maddening. like i accept they are normal during intense choreography, but then fans set them up posting clips gushing over their perfect ‘live vocals’…..where said idol is skipping and jumping across the stage with no audible change in their voice..
Yoona is SNSD’s “weakest” vocalist but she could still hold a tune and still sang live fearlessly and confidently. If you look back at old SNSD performances, she sang her lines fairly well and got the job done, even though she’s the center, visual, and a lead dancer…
She even got some of Jessica's lines in the Tokyo Dome. She made sure to hold her own weight on the team.
It also helps that SM knows what the members were capable of; none of the dance line was expected to perform at the level of the vocal line, and the vocal line equally contributed to the more vocally challenging parts of their songs
That’s a great point. I’m a huge snsd stan, and I’ve never once thought that yoona lacked talent compared to the other members. She’s a wonderful dancer, super charismatic and can obviously hold a tune and even rap when needed. such a solid visual/ idol.
She was not the weakest pretty untrue it was Yuri, and still to this day Yuri is the only girl unable to be on pitch lol she is still even tease by the rest for this
Yoona's also been provided solos or duets where her voice shines. Deoksugung Stonewall Walkway, Summer Night, her Chinese EP and Where the Wind Blows is evidence of this. Yeah her voice isn't as powerful as Taeyeon's but she can hold a tune and that's the biggest thing for me. The "weakest" vocalist in SNSD yet she was capable of making improvements throughout her singing career that allowed her to have those singles.
lets be realistic. the only groups with weak vocals are those from hybe post fromis/ g-friend and those from competition shows. and what a coincidence hybe basically chose both groups from competition shows.
new jeans has good vocals and they're from hybe
i disagree i think there are groups under hybe with great vocals/vocalists that debuted after fromis. unless you mean after g-friend disbanded?
@@keerti3768 I was specifically talking about girl groups under hybe
@@mariasol1545 they are not powerhouse vocalists. they just have beautiful tones. I'm not saying they are bad singers but comparing them to like SM groups, Nmixx, babymonster etc. they arent like Whitney houstons/ mariah careys / beyonces they are a lot more subtle
Exactly!! I'm tired of this trend of youtube commentators (I'm not talking about this channel, she's a 2nd gen fan and I respect that) trashing "Kpop vocals" and expressing themselves like all Kpop is basically HYBE. When there are tons of other groups super talented, interesting and with amazing music. Frustrating.
Lsrfm has had criticism on their vocals since fearless encore stage. That was their debut yet they still sound this bad.
In other words, they're not training vocally because their toxic fans are always going to be there to rub their shoulders.
Ive is another group that's been criticized for weak vocals but i just listened to an mr removed of Heya and i can't deny Wonyoung sounds much better. She's not there yet. No. But you can tell she's doing some training in the background to better herself.
I don't understand this lsrfm group, nor do i understand their fans so I'm as out as out can be.
There are so many groups out there with pleasing vocals like nmixx, aespa, kiss of life, and baby monster, and I prefer to stan talent x hardwork
IVE's development is what Lsrfm should've been. I feel like most criticisms IVE has gotten in the beginning were actually listened to and corrected by Starship (as occasionally shady as they are), with the impressive vocals of "I AM" seemingly being a direct response to the "lipsyncing while sitting down" scandal. Wonyoung has also heavily improved on her vocals, as you stated. Meanwhile, Lsrfm has done worse than stay stagnant--they've dipped in quality. I get that Starship is a smaller company and can't really afford to risk losing fans, but the fact that HYBE is under the notion that they can get away with mediocrity just because of their status is an insult to their fans' intelligence.
@@k_n_c_y Must be true because I recently got to know IVE and loved her vocals 😧I had no idea they weren"t very good at the beginning. Good fo them!
@@k_n_c_y But it's true. The fans have accepted the mediocrity.
as someone who used to criticize ive left and right i completely agree. it's not that hard to turn critical listeners into fans because they're already invested in the group as is. there were certain aspects of ive i didn't enjoy, and they fixed those, so i turned into a fan. it doesn't get simpler than that. lesserafim's management is just stubbornly holding them back and relying on nothing but company image and pity stans instead of actually improving them
@@tony-dk7qi Yooo I used to be an IVE critic too 😭 But after their major improvements and actually putting fans’ concerns into consideration, I am not ashamed to admit that they eventually got me on their team. The opposite goes for Lsrfm-I started off rooting for them, but lost interest overtime…
Maybe the standards of people who don’t criticize Le ssarafim is low. These just enjoy the show and since they were entertained. That’s good enough for them. I don’t hate them but there is really something wrong with their vocals.
agree
Kiss of life and DC are my favs therefore my standards isn't low, I just stopped caring because not only the main song they were using against them was their last song of the performance after dancing nonstop for a hour, but so many people just want to hate them.
And I did watch the whole thing and they didn't sound that bad, there were some rough parts but this blew out of proportion
its called different standards, jst bec we dont hve the same ones doesnt partially make mine any less better
I remember how Twice was at some point one of the most hated girlgroups and also constantly crticized the way Lesserafim are now, they lipsang a lot and were called just performers and pretty faces, they even got a black ocean when they won an award i believe.
Seeing the amount of respect people have for them now it's weird. I dont think they became the best live vocalists of any era but im proud of them anyway, they had so much growth especially Tzuyu, and with their new skills they found a new confidence which helped them get where they are
The thing about singing live is the confidence, if your singer doesn't know the skills to sing they are not gonna be confident in their singing and will not sing or sing good at all
this
Very true
They were bad at 2015, when SNSD, Sistar, Exid, Exo, Red Velvet, SHINee, Gfriend, Infinite, etc were in the spotlight. But overall, Rookie Twice was way better than Le Sserafim
@Blanka767 their debut wasn't that criticized because they weren't that popular back then. The hate started more around 2016 after Cheer up and TT popularity, in that sense they were more like IVE and their wave of hate
I cannot say if they were better vocally than Lessera or not, they were really bad (and i love them) but Lesserafims problem would be their arrogance too, not only by the members but also the fans, they were sold an empowering concept since the beginning, articles talking good about them every criticism was swep under the rug and fans deluded themseleves until it couldn't be hidden anymore
We Onces were delulu too at times, but in our case there wasn't this big event that made people open their eyes about how awful they sang because people were already hating on them since forever
@@bornarose11 Twice was not bad, honestly the Cheer up mr removed was only hated because Sana was lip syncing. Listen to their Daring woman cover, One in a million performance or even their first ever Mr.Removed, Twice was always good. Momo is the only bad singer, but she is one of the best dancers of 3rd gen, what about Sakura?
People forget that K-pop is MUSIC. Like ok they dance too but that’s like an addition to the main part which is singing. Their official releases are albums with songs they are not a dance crew. Like it you can’t sing and you’re releasing music that requires you to SING then cmon. I’d rather have a mid dance with idols singing amazingly on stage, which is seen a lot from a few years ago.
People like kpop because we like seeing attractive idols
@@olilondonpavethewayforkpop speak for yourself.
Some of us actually want vocals along with appearance.
Disbanding Gfriend was a mistake.
@@olilondonpavethewayforkpop Your comments are so superficial. Mind you, there's people who actually care about THE MUSIC. If I wanted to look at beautiful people I would look at models. Visuals should be a plus not the entire reason why you're into k-pop in the first place
@@3h33_xy kpop idols shouldn’t be beautiful no one wants to be a fan of a ugly idol
@@EveRosell most people like Kpop idols because they are attractive
0:17 I can tell that you’re a 2nd gen stan because of the fact that you still use those pictures and gifs
All groups need a good singer - and no I don't mean they have to be Taeyeon/Hyorin/Solji/Luna/etc. They just have to sing well enough for the belts and the simple run, or at least, staying in pitch. Good singers allow a lot of dynamics in delivering a song.
Yunjin and Chaewon are fine, but something happens; the girls sound so unstable these days.
The rest of the girls are inconsistent but have shown a few sparks here and there. So now it's about them having to be more consistent in singing.
I mean many peopl out there living with good vocals, atleast one group have very good or above average vocal skill then the rest are average that can sing with tone and can sing live. Company should have better casting team.
You stan EXO & TVXQ. Ofc your vocal standards are high (as it should)
High as Chen's notes
Yup!
Same, I started with DBSK and Super Junior in the late 2000s.
@@miiaringTRUEEEEEE😂
@@vincentbarraza1115Dbsk=Tvxq?
Kpop has normalized many things that made it beyond saving at this point. Transformed music into endless competition, numbers and wins. Truly ridiculous.
BTS's RM releases an album straight up pouring his heart out,
99% of the comments would rather inflate the statistics of "listens" than discuss the lyrics, cinematography, etc. We are in hell.
I think Taemin is the strongest proof that even the weakest vocalist can improve if they have the desire to improve. Taemin was in this position in the beginning of Shinee and he consistently improved to be the great vocalist that he is today. Nothing is stopping these idols from practicing on their own if they really had the desire to be better.
As much as people like to ignore it, I think groups like BlackPink unfortunately opened the floodgates for this exact problem now. If BlackPink can be mediocre with low effort and no growth but still manage to be one of the most popular girl groups in the world then why would other companies worry about it if they saw firsthand that good visuals and attractiveness alone can carry a group to popularity.
The companies should care and provide the means but at the end of the day its still up to the idols because its their job to perform. They chose this path and they choose to be mediocre. Some people are naturally good at performing but that doesn’t change the fact that it’s still a skill that can be practiced and developed.
Hm I agree however bp at least had the basics down
When they debuted they were great but then they started regressing after that hiatus
It still pisses me off how bp do the bare minimum and fans eat it up. While there’s other girl groups with more talent are being under looked
@@anairam9156 that's more so the fans so we can't do anything about it it's the harsh reality of the industry
Agree with everything but being in a rock group does not give you the excuse of being a bad vocalist, like look at pierce the veil, fallout boy, set it off they're decent vocalists
I said RAP group, meaning if they were a rap group, I'd understand not being strong in vocals with singing (even then rappers have their own technique with rhythm and such). Rock is my fav genre outside of kpop, believe me I know a plethora of amazing singers in that genre
Even in death metal, bad vocalists are clowned on. Look at Chris Barnes. He used to be one of the most brutal vocalist in death metal with his band Cannibal Corpse. But after he left and formed Six Feet Under, his vocals continued to regressed and nowadays, he is a joke compared to his peers like George Fisher and John Tardy.
Honestly like seeing them perform they got the presence and energy but the vocals are a no. Even tho Chaewon and Yunjin are always praised Yunjin has gotten worse for some reason and ppl tried to excuse it with her opera vids until it was embarrassingly obvious Yunjin has regressed. I’m not even sure she can do the opera style as strongly or at all anymore. Chaewon despite any mistakes is still the only one holding down the group. She still gets praised cause her human mistakes are acceptable cause she still tries and maintains her vocals majority of the time.
Her so called "opera style" with an in-ear mic is the most ridiculous thing to validate her singing. REAL opera singers don''t use a mic AT ALL. It's like wearing the Joker's costume in Halloween without being a true psycopath.
and to add, yunjin was only an opera singer in her old school so she really wasnt trained either
@@iuvnet She wasn't even an opera singer, she took classical singing classes and did some musicals (like The Phantom of the Opera, the reason why people think she was an opera singer)
@@onlydbrasko the whole point of a halloween is to wear a constume, you dork
@@hnemhnem130 have someone smart read for you.
Just because a lot of japanese Idols cant sing and were not given proper training from their agency does not mean that all japanese idols cant sing.
Fans should stop using this excuse.
1. Some people are just not born natural singers, no matter how many vocal lessons they get they will still sound like dying ducks
2. There are a lot of people that can sing without ever getting vocal lessons
3. Akb members are responsible for their own vocal and dance lessons. So it is on Sakura for never getting vocal lessons. I have seen enough Akb members taking vocal and dance lessons
4. Sakura has never been a good singer. In akb you do not need to be good at singing to be the most popular member. Mnet also knew this and this is how her spot in Izone got secured. She had the hard working girl storyline (not like all the other participants were also giving their best). From the very first episode everyone knew fhat either her or jurina were going to debut since they were the Aces at the time. A lot of actual talented japanese members were overlooked during Produce
5. Sakura hasnt really improved not during Akb, Izone or nor lesserafim
6. Why cant basically 80% of the female Japanese idols in kpop decently sing? Is it maybe on purpose? Why are most of them so nasal?
7. XG can sing, Babymetal can sing, so why cant they sing
8. Kazuha was not ready to debut. The only thing that saved her and she was praised for were her vocals. Remember how Giselle was criticised for not keeping up with fhe other girls dancing after only training for 11 months? Yeah at least she could sing and rap from day one.
9. Dropping Garam was their vocal downfall because she was one of the members carrying their songs
10. There is a good reason why Eunhae barely got any lines during fearless. Her voice is actually worse than Sakura's. She was a trainee or not. How is it not showing.
11. Yunjin is not an idol singer and needs to change her technique
12. Chaewon. I dont really have any complaints because she is the one keeping this group floating.
13. They need easier dances. Their performance on week 2 Coachella was better because they danced less.
14. They need to stop using too much autotune on their songs so that people are not chocked when hearing their actual voices
15. 4th and 5th gen is about popularity, charting, getting a piece of the pie and producing catchy songs and not about the quality of the music. An example Illit Magnetic. Only one members voice matched the song and the others were barely surviving. Good thing they never have to perform it live. But the song is still charting because it is catchy and the girls are pretty. Yes, they get criticized for their voices, but they are still bringing in money
10th point is completely invalid tho, just xcuz you dont like the tone of eunchae doesnt mean others dont as well, i and many others like her warm tone and i really think it adds contating flavour to the group's discography, please use another and actual valid statement, your points on sakura and kazuha were right tho, and the garam point, on a techniqual standpoint she was worse than eunchae in supported range as well as live singing so idk how her leaving was a vocal downfall when people mustve trolled her as much as they do to kazuha or eunchae
Yeah I mean if hybe wants pretty girls looking like they can sing by lip syncing they should just stick to the domestic fans and not push them global bc everyone else outside of Korea care about decent vocals.
Half of these points are just straight up hate 😭? The bit on Illit was so unfair too, realistically only Moka ever sounded bad AND they JUST debuted. And, on top of that, Yunah and Minju both sounded actively great on encores, you just don’t like the group lol.
@@Saladfork1929 笑 笑
@universeofkpop9451 both eunchae and sakura dont have a supported range and both sing very pitchy
i didn't realise how much hate lsfm and hybe gg were getting until i noticed knetz talking abt it in every comment section
But still how they re topping melon.chart. curious and more curious🤔
@@norfadlynadzimuddin6334 well the allegation after min heejin drama with hybe that they kinda payola (not confirm tho)
@@slaypai think people might also just be curious about them even more now that they’re in the media with the hybe drama so they’re listening out of curiosity
@@norfadlynadzimuddin6334 streaming and being on charts doesnt mean they arent hated, alot of hybe stans like armys etc stream hybe group songs
@@slaypa koreans are on min heejin's side
As a fan of Le Sserafim, i love their songs and performances. However, it is a main part of their job to be singers, and they arent doing nearly as well as youd expect with their fame… im starting to drift away from them bc its honestly embarrassing to like singers that cant even hold a note. it is disappointing since they always have banger songs 🙁
Same:((. I’m not a fan of their newer releases since unforgiven and I don’t see a point in being a fan if I don’t enjoy their music or I’m not a fan of their vocals when I listen to their music. I’ve began to affiliate to groups like nmixx and aespa more.
Same I’ll still enjoy their studio songs that are catchy but I’m definitely not standing for sure. They are gonna end up like gfriends if they don’t improve
@@markigirl2757difference is gfriend actually had great live vocals and a great singer like yuju they disbanded by no choice because hybe decided it
@@amethyst034How bout now with Crazy
I honestly agree. I think these girls have room to improve but seeing of their live performances were hard to watch. I really love singers who have strong vocals like Forestella but not everyone is going to like them.If you are a singer then it is your job to sing at least decently.
Being a performance based group is absolutely not an excuse. Itzy is a group, that as a whole has weaker vocalists than lesserafim, but even they manage to sound INCREDIBLE when singing live, whether it’s while dancing to their incredibly difficult songs or just standing for an encore.
I will say, I do think the problem with lesserafim, besides their weak vocals, is their songs. Fearless and Easy are unbelievably low for female groups, and clearly low notes aren’t Yunjin, Chaewon, and Sakuras strong suits, while high notes aren’t Kazuha and Eunchae’s strong suits. Tbf Kazuha Sakura and Eunchae don’t entirely have a strong suit… But I will say, Eunchae has always sounded decent in the standing encores, and Kazuha actually sounded quite good during easy encores. I think Yunjin is just trying to sing with a certain style, and it is NOT working for her.
With Le Sserafim, they have such easy songs so even more then, they should be able to hit these notes. If they‘re struggling with singing easy songs during an encore, they shouldn't be singers. It‘s their job literally.. but at least we have some groups in fourth gen and now fifth gen who have good vocalists and even the non-vocalists can hold a note, aka NMIXX, Kiss Of Life and BabyMonster (I don‘t like BM's music really cause like yk, give them a different concept, but they all can hold a note.)
hybe just doesn't care, BTS has actually talked about how they had to find vocal trainers themselves since bang pd priorities are in stage presence and dance
@@mariasol1545 well at least BTS strived for improvement in their vocals. Though they should have a vocal coach or individual vocal coaches provided by Hybe.
ngl i dont think they suit the concept at all sakura is much more capable of doing high notes if you review her clips back when she was still an idol and the girls are struggling with low notes which most of their songs are
shouldn't we attack the company for this?
@@frinlwatson2208 Well, this wasn‘t an attack. It‘s pretty obvious they all lack proper vocal training. And yeah, they don‘t fit the songs they‘re currently doing. Fearless and Antifragile were better and more unique to them as a group.
Also, Sakura was singing high pitched songs and she didn‘t get many lines in IZ*One. And when she was in AKB48 and HKT48, she didn‘t receive proper vocal training so those high notes probably weren‘t executed properly and damaged her voice even more. So I wouldn't count on those. And I don‘t think you can get so weak in your vocals in just a couple of years.. what Sakura and the group in general need is a vocal coach. So they can build a proper foundation. And yea it‘s a misstep by Hybe to give them songs not really suited for their range. But eh, it‘s Hybe, they just don‘t care
@@jxstadri true, i honestly think that sakura and the group as a whole could be so much more capable of reaching high vocals if only hybe cared enough about their training and actually put effort into giving them lessons
man its sad to see this group and members getting cooked just because of the company not caring
I've been a K-POP fan since 2012, and with the expansion and globalization of the culture, more fans became close with their favorite group. And as we can see it with 4th Gen and 5th Gen (5th gen is 4.5 gen for me), some are lacking vocally, some of them are weak dancer and they rarely write their own rap while in other generation, real singers were there, freestylers were there and real rappers. Now we give them a sheet, they sing with a lot of autotune and make hard choreographies to find an excuse to not sing on music shows. well fans find them an excuse even though idols train years for their stamina to Increase and hit the notes they can naturally reach but some aren't trained and just sing perfromatively without trying to work on the note they did once for a song.
Their songs only rely on haters talking about them when they are loved by the industry or apart from their fans. No one cares about them, and their haters are their own fans. This can lead their fans to think people are hating on them when the only hate is receiving is the hate their own fandom have been given to other groups.
When they get valid criticism, Idol urges to falsely apologize as they know their fans are going to defend them. Idols aren't dumb. They'll apologize saying "don't judge" "I did my best and fans will label everything as hate and we are being too hard on them even though no one could careless about the haters except the group itself so that their narrative is "valid" and fans who thinks everyone hate them.
An example I have is Lesserafim (I'm a fan, and these are just assumptions, I need clarification). When they debuted, Lesserafim were praised for singing live well among the other 4th gen groups that were doing lipsync.
The only remark they got from everyone was that their vocals weren't good enough for debuting Idols that are supposedly train for that and their fans quickly jump by saying "They'll improve" "Yunjin is an opera singer" (which she constantly said she wasn't) "Sakura is good for someone coming out of J-Pop" (Putting down a whole industry just to praise your fave) "At least they know how to sing. Can you sing" (When it's not our job and thanks to us they live just by singing a song that was given to them) and "They just debuted" when they are meant to be prepared for it. All groups that were good singers but not great dancers were constantly compared to Lesserafim dance level even though kpop is both and Lesserafim and Hybe have been influencing kpop on being good dancer and visual and not singing well but whenever we ask about if they know how to sing, it is either portrayed as bullying or they are going to take the best member (who are lacking too) to represent the group or lastly blaming on the training time.
If it was the training time, they have time between comeback, so why didn't they improve? They say Lesserafim are writing and producing their own songs, then when they get criticized for not singing their own songs, then say, "HYBE is giving them songs that are out of their ranges."
For two years, some Lesserafim fans have been bragging about their inexistable skills while bullying other idols, and Lesserafim did nothing to stop their fans from being problematic cause they didn't give a damn and it didn't hurt them.
And now that they perfomed at Coachella, we waited for those skills that were bragged around to show off. Performing at Coachella is a big deal after Blackpink was the first K-pop girl group to be invited. Coachella is a huge festival, and Lesserafim has been acting haughty for the last 2 years. Their first week was lacking, and all missed notes and even Chaewon who "carried" were bad, fans blamed it on nervousness. The second week, they put backtrack and autotune, but fans said they improved. Their whole argument was, "Why are you only picking the bad side?" Well, because it's Their job to sing well, so why point out the obvious? And also they don't sing phenomenally good to be even talking about those.
After those horrible performances, Chaewon put a middle finger in her Insta Story and Sakura apologized litteraly saying she did her best and people shouldn't hate when she has been working for 13 years in this industry and that she focuses on trolls that come from her own fandom. After the Coachella performance, many newspapers said their performance was good and videos and Mr removed were taken down and surprisingly other Coachella performance, even Ateez's one weren't talked about this way this much especially when Lesserafim performed at the Sahara...
And as yall know, Lesserafim's fan played the witch hunt and blocked every content in mass that gave valid criticism, and Lesserafim played the game. And those pseudo tiktokers who talk about POV: A hater is watching Lesserafim when only fearnots and people who were fearnots before cared about their performance. The fandom is Loud and Wrong and too big that they think the kpop world revolves around them. This a recent example, but Lesserafim aren't the first one to use their fans like this.
BTS who are culturally appropriated, racist, nword, being misogynistic and everything, their apologies were lackluster, and now they scream at us, saying they are grown up and won't apologize and their fans are eating it. I'm only talking about both of them because they are part of my favorite groups, and they are the only one who did that stuff. Recently, ILLIT indirectly did when people constructively critized their singing, but they focused on hate and started crying cause people criticized their vocal when it's their job. We can't lose a tradition of idols being trained for year to be perfect in all areas, finding them excuses and them playing with our morals. IDOLS are using you. AGENCIES are using you. Making everyone believe that MHJ said BANG PD stole from her to make BTS was planned by HYBE, and we all jumped on MHJ throat like They know how to use us.
You said everything I thought about this situation so perfectly.
accurately described.
long and kinda right
Long ass comment but I saw no lies in there.
I also listen to jpop and am so done with people bringing down the Japanese idol Industrie just because their faves cannot sing.
K-pop channel that appreciate real k-pop singers like Exo, SNSD, BTOB?! Immediately followed ❤
Oh and kings TVXQ too and a lot of 2nd gen groups
Yawn you are old
I remember hearing SNSD's The Boys in my days at Manila, when I was a kid back then
Like some fans said that Sakura's position is rapping and that's why she is not a good vocalist. I am sorry but this is not an excuse. Most groups in Kpop have rappers who have basic singing skills that suit the group's songs. Lisa, Dahyun, Yoona, Irene, Yeri and so on. Even in the west - Fifth Harmony is a group where all girls can sing and don't let me start with Little mix where everyone is a main singer. Japanese idols are just bad at singing because of their nasal voices. XG is a rapping group. In Baemon Asa and Ruka are mostly rappers, even though Asa has actually gained those basic singing skills that is amazing
tbh sakura is not even that great of a rapper either for it to be justifiable. her delivery is pretty standard and she doesn't really have a characteristic flow. some yg idols are amazing rappers but pretty mid vocalists (t.o.p, gdragon, cl) and it's fine bc they Show their rap prowess in all departments, whether its lyricism, flow, delivery, freestyle, you name it. sakura imo has yet to prove herself as a rapper
@@northrnstar I don’t consider her rapper either. I just said what some of their fandom point out. Actually, within 4th gen ggs I can’t name a good rapper except Soyeon
Japanesse dont have a nassal voice it just that AKB48 and a lot a popular Idol in japan use a really bubly pop song.but you Can also have différent voices.
You've never listened to XG have you? Or NiziU? Japanese have "nasal" voices? Ok...Plus there are many more Japanese singers with different tones. (Like LiSA) This is just a Sakura problem.
@@onceuponamelody Welcome to reality. Most Japanese girls really have nasal voices. Just because someone is able to obtain it as Maya, Jurin or Cocona, does not mean that most people are. Check for info. I don’t defend Sakura since I don’t stan Ls but a fact is a fact
Only silver lining of this situation is that groups like nmixx and babymon and kiss of life are getting attention.
ya
idk why yall think this is such a good thing, ppl are bringing lsfm down in order to prop up those other groups, most of the time yall dont even stan nmixx and kiof, put that energy into streaming their songs
@@baggyjeans127 but its not netizen fault tho that lsrfm doing bad vocally. I means when you are bad doing your job, you will get criticized somehow no? Its true anyway that some group are getting attention after illit/lsrfm controversy but it just how kpop industry works
@@Winternight-mj2yu getting death threats and gr*pe threats isn't criticism, and both lsfm and illit can sing, theyve alr proven this in their most recent performances (lsfm at their fan concert and mtv, illit during their university performance and their perf w JYP)
it's not a good thing because the same kpop stans dragging lsrf now used to drag these groups to filth too and are only token stanning them out of spite. This isn't genuine support and shouldn't be celebrated.
“1. I don’t stan Lesseraphim”
Neither do I.
“2. I like 2nd Gen groups.”
Same here, my person. Let’s be friends. I’ll talk about the one group that my mind will never betray and you can give me song recs.
Which group do u speak of 👀
my only complain with lesserafim is that if sakura eunchae kazuha were good rappers i would not mind it *ok they are the rappers of the grp it makes sense* but that's not the case i don't remember wheN was it the last time any lesserafim song had a *proper rap* They are basically just strong dancers and the vocal members (yunjin and chaewon specially yunjin even she had classical background is doing the bare minimum COMPARED TO HER AMMOUNT OF LINES)
this video pretty much sums up my thoughts on this situation. like you said, i don't expect every single idol to be celine dion's lost child, but i Do and i Should expect some basic levels of quality since, surprise surprise, being an idol is also a job. im not asking for a full group of powerhouses, but at the very least a group that doesn't flinch when asked to sing fully live with no backtrack or technical touchups.
Given that anybody can learn to sing decently I find it insane that a group of people hand picked to be performers from thousands of candidates can't sing _their_own_songs_.
No hate to the girls, I actually really like Le Sserafim. But come on, stop making excuses.
There are jobs for beautiful people who can't sing. You can be a model, a dancer, an actor, no need to be an idol.
Yeah there are plenty of kpop idols who are not strong singers but they can at least hold their own for a few lines or have a different role (dance/rap) while others are strong singers.. I don't need everyone in an idol group to sing well but when a group like Le Sserafim is mostly bad singers it is an issue. Even their best singer does not stand out compared to the better singers from other groups. So they can't let their weaker singers hide behind their better ones like other groups can.
Its strange that the oneus of choosing a different career is on the idol and not the industry… there have been visual positions and even visual groups since forever in kpop. If there really are too many subpar vocal groups then maybe companies should brand their groups better,,, no?
@@kidawesomeness123 The problem here is that Le Sserafim feels so much lower then other groups both currently and before them. There are idols in some groups that are not strong singers but it is not common to see a group of mostly weak singers. While yes the industry has issues and this is a company's problem, but also other idols have gotten vocal lessons outside of their company before if their companies don't cover it, so we also should not make excuses for Le Sserafim.
They don't even sing the whole song lol
They divide lines among members, so at most they sing only less than a minute, some even only a few seconds 😅
They don't even sound like the recorded version sometimes wtf, esp. Eunchae and Sakura. So weird. Did they hire a ghost singer or something?
In their defense companies don’t really choose songs to fits their idols vocals tones, they choose the ones that could good on the charts
say what you want about Kim Garam, BUT before she was kicked out Yunjin, Chaewon, & Kim Garam all balanced each other out well. from TONE(Kim had the best tone of the 3-imo-) Belting, & Riffing….. once she left it was all left to Chae & Yunjin to carry the group vocally. Which seems to be too much for them to do Live when the mic is fully on.
what belting and riffing was garam doing?
Okay where is this narrative that Garam was a good singer came from??? she was literally on par with Eunchae (not a good thing). There was a viral video of her not even being able to sing on pitch WHILE STANDING STILL with Eunchae.
i think shes just as bad ngl. if she doesnt have prior singing experience before hybe it means she cant sing (bc hybe doesnt give vocal training)
Does anyone remember Gfriend? They come from the same company and even as rookies the girls were stable. Yuju and Eunha carried the most vocal weight but the others kept up and were decent and they only improved comeback after comeback. And don't forget Taemin, hw went from the weakest member to have a solo career with interesting vocal performance.
Disbanding Gfriend was their biggest mistake, imo.
But originally they are not technically from the same company, as there was a buy-out merging between two companies.
Your second reason to hate you before the video starts made me subscribe. Hello fellow 2nd gen enjoyer.
Yaaass me too (^_^)
Yo, I’m not alone. Let’s go.
same
Aespa has entered the chat. SM vocalists are too OP!!!💯💯💯
Mediocrity was normalized and glorified thanks to Blackpink, the GG decline because the group that leads them was incredibly mediocre. But obviously no one is going to say anything to them because they are not from HYBE.
Some members of BTS are also quite poor live vocally (not their rappers). The two biggest groups of 3rd gen (BTS/Blackpink) were great with stage performances (for the most part), had good visuals, but were lacking in singing in many respects. Then you get 4th gen who follows that same formula (attractive, great stage performance, but lacks vocally) but to the nth.
I think it's absurd that an agency like hybe doesn't have singing lessons as its main focus. I can see that even the most famous groups with long careers sing at a mediocre
Hybe isn't an agency. Hybe owns agencys. Check which agency each group is under because they are all managed differently
HYBE's formation is the result of BigHit's success with BTS. Anyone who's making excuses for HYBE note that BHS was JYP's songwriter for years and saw the development of Wonder Girls and on top of that he developed BTS. He KNOWS it takes YEARS of training with no guarantees to the trainees to debut PLUS the continuous process of elimination throughout those years to end up with the best of the best to debut. it's clear as day both he and the sub-labels don't want to take the TIME and PATIENCE to develop a girl group of substance.
Hybe kinda is the reason why mediocrity is awarded in kpop today... they get away with bad vocals just because of the concepts and marketing strategies... I don't want to start a fight but that's literally what they did with bts... they appealed to the mental health campaigns suddenly making a huge switch in their concepts when mental health sensitivity was becoming a huge topic globally in 2015. That literally was the turning point for bts. There were numerous more talented groups than them but they hit it big just because the differentiating factor was hybe's marketing strategies.
hybe is the late stage capitalism of kpop. more money by training less, pump out more groups = more profit. another really bad problem this creates for them is how the public views them; personally, I don't trust any single future group that hybe creates to be actually one of quality, and maybe, just maybe, other people feel the same way as I do. unless there's rapid improvement for these girls, i trust that hybe explicitly cuts corners for every single group that they created.
Well, HYBE does have new groups that are actually talented. Tws and boys next door.
As a kpop fan and listener since 2nd gen (started with TVXQ too, Jaejoong's vocal had me by the chockhold back then and Infinite's The eye is my fave till now because even the rappers were showcasing good vocals), vocals will always matter to me. I'm not saying I don't care about idols' visuals, personalities or the chemistry between the members because I do. But 2nd gen groups have conditioned me to believe that good and stable vocals should be a given thing in an idol group.
Especially since it's something you can train and improve on if you have good resources.
Yes, we can choose the groups we want to support and Le Sserafim's weak vocals isn't that big of a deal. But since they're one of the top GG right now, like you said, it's gonna make the companies complacent and will probably start debuting groups that are not ready yet and won't put effort into vocals anymore - less resources put into training and improving the vocals of the members, means more resources for other places (let be honest, Kpop is still a business and most companies are always gonna choose the route that cost them less money but make more profits)
Also, I don't know about new fans, but I've heard and experienced again and again (since 2nd gen), non-kpop listeners dissing Kpop and stereotyping idols as attractive people with no talents, just there to look pretty. So with the current trend of singing/vocals don't matter is like embracing the stereotypes that Kpop haters have, instead of proving those stereotypes wrong.
I find bad encores so funny, I would watch them when I feel really bored 😅 but as you say, 2nd gen was a jewel for me. Apink, T-ara, sistar
I was told by a Le SSeraphim fan that singers don't need any vocal training. I was like, tell me your age is 10 years below the time your brain is fully developed at 25. 😂
It was so normal to criticise idols in TALENTED groups like Sehun from Exo for his weak vocals and rap, and members from BTS like J-hope for his poor rap and lyrics, or Jin and V for their lack of vocals, yet these artists GREW from these criticisms and took it as feedback. Meanwhile you have Le Sserafim (who I like!) bitching about the pressures of debuting under Hybe and whatnot.
DON’T YOU THINK SEHUN OR CHANYEOL HAD THE SAME PRESSURES FOR BEING SM’S NEXT BOY GROUP AFTER SHINEE? SM was and still is the biggest company in Korea. They made Kpop what it is now. But look at how much these guys have improved. Heck, Chanyeol’s vocals are so beautiful that he’s sings kdrama osts, and within the group, especially in their more recent albums, Sehun’s rap parts are unironically my favourite (although I can’t forget about you ‘shawty imma party till the sun down’).
Anyway. Le Sserafim. Get ya act together. You have an idol in the group whose career is older than some of her fans. You have an opera singer. You have the daughter of a theatre actress, meaning she grew up around real talent and had the privileges to see from childhood what this business is all about. Le Sserafim have the potential to be strong, but I think even they don’t want to be strong and that means they’re lazy af.
I heard she said she isn't an opera singer so if thats true, stop parroting that rumor.
The girl is not an Opera Singer. She said so herself and that's an insult.
@@AA-ed6ek then why does everyone spread that’s she’s an opera singer?
Anyway if that’s all you bitches take away from my comment, goes to show where your biased perspectives lie 😘
@@minnie4106The rumour was started by their fans to push that she had more talent than she actually did which only backfired on her. It just proves that the fans incessant coddling is what’s adding fuel to the fire.
I really enjoy this video. I don't have much to say, to me it's primary hybe/source music fault... And they need to fix it, or it can get worse.
as a fearnot, it bugs that my fandom takes "le sserafim struggles vocally" as hate when it is infact true
Everyone here, do yourself the biggest favor, and watch TVXQ’s Mirrotic encore
Mid song
@@olilondonpavethewayforkpop Ur mid
Ah yes, Under my skin
Tbh, it’s HYBE’s fault isn’t it. The way kpop it is right now. When BIG 3 still dominated the industry, they set the standard. YG for rap, SM for vocal, JYP for dance. But when HYBE came on top, they started to produce groups with focus on dance skills with lesser vocal and rap skills. And that’s become the standard now (4th gen).
I'm a fearnot and the vocals have been bothering me for a long time, but not necessarily in the way that they seem to bother most people. I'm along the lines of your closing argument. These companies will absolutely do the bare minimum where they can, and leave their idols hanging when they need support. It's infuriating to see the dogpiling that happens when a group slips up, and pretty much the only thing they can do is wait for the outrage machine to produce another target for the netizens.
That being said, LS really does need to get their vocals to a healthier place. Coachella was a step in the right direction, but as a fan that hopes they'll have a long career, they need way more steps to get to a steadier place.
Is it true that lesserafim doesn't have a recording behind? Read a comment saying that and i tried searching in yt but didnt find one...
If yes no wonder they wont upload those cause like dont want the public to see that their studio version is like 90% patched and fix by machine softwares
Ps send link if there is one
they don't have any
th-cam.com/video/CDxfmUdU9vw/w-d-xo.htmlsi=FOG7-R4iCUA_2RK-
found this one.. but i wouldn’t consider it a recording behind as a full group
@@nubelinda thats not even raw vocals like the other groups recording behind thats a duet on a studio setting thats
pre recorded
Corrected and tuned
@@civilianno.3997 right.. that’s why I said I don’t consider it a fully record behind video, now that you mention it.. you’re right and it’s so weird
The only time I saw a "behind the scenes" was in the documentary where Sakura was struggling to sing a part in Fearless
And yeah she didn't sound great there
I don't care what the clueless stans say. you're fave is a kpop idol and they SHOULD KNOW HOW TO SING. if they can dance but can't sing for shit, then they should just become a backup dancer. sadly, most companies focus more on visuals and dancing and totally disregard vocals.
it doesn't matter the genre, if i suddenly notice a recorded musical performance of any kind by anyone, i go to look at live performance. if the live product isn't very similar in ability to the recorded, i'm gone......
Same here. I wanted to be into LSFM but I just couldn't. I imagine ALL the girls who might not have been as attractive or whatever but were amazing vocalists being passed over for people who are tone deaf or can't hold a note. I personally can't support that.
Why did the company think they could sing live when the girls weren't prepared?
They didn't. The girls are pretty and therefore they will get away with having very little talent and creativity because kpop's primary audiences are children.
A K-pop performance is singing and dancing! If you can’t sing then be a dancing group or a backup dancer
The only reason they're popular is cause of Hybe. We all know how shady they are and it was bought
How hybe become shady brahh
@@Bts20194 what's the point in saying anything to a corporate shill like yourself
I don’t understand how the topic of le sserafim’s vocals derailed to hybe “buying” their success
@@BEcauseILoveYoohand of course people will get called hybe stans whenever they ask for proof
@@hanmira you got BTS in your name you're a corporate stan. Everyone knows how toxic they are
Honestly it's getting annoying. Le sserfirm gets vocals lessons. Source music really need to make sure lesserafim stay on top of vocals lessons. Source music needs to learn to protect their artists better.
Am sorry but the group should at least have 2 strong vocal singers.
it all comes down to taking up space that other talented people coulve filled. they get paid to sing and they cannot even deliver that. i do not understand why you would stan a kpop music group, if they cant sing.
Because people are vain and shallow and care more about vanity and what's popular than actual talent, creativity or originality. It's why more attractive and pretty groups (Twice, Ive, Le Sserafim, Blackpink) will always be privileged and more praised than groups who are actually talented and musically inclined (Dreamcatcher, Mamamoo, Dia, GFriend). It's so obvious who became an idol for fame and money, and who became an idol for artistic expression, genuine interest in music as well as fame and money 😂
YoonA is the "weakest" vocalist in SNSD but still did great in every single stage and performance in term of "vocal" and "singing" eventhough it has a dancing or just standing and while she is the weakest in her group but she is on the same level as main or lead vocalist in some group.
fourth and fifth gen vocals aren't as great as 2nd and 3rd gen, but there's no group besides Illit and Le Serrafim where Yoona could be the main or lead singer
Mamamoo & Red Velvet can’t relate.
Yeah, They really need to improve their vocals, but what people are doing to them on social media is not cool..Giving hate instead of support doesn't help at all.
There’s a huge difference between them being bad singers and being unable to sing their own songs. Not being able to properly sing their own songs is what is pissing me off. I hope they improve.
You’ve literally summed up what I’ve been trying to say for MONTHS 😭
I mean it’s pretty obvious when only 2 members can actually sing.. well not even 2 because yunjin regressed vocally 😢
Honestly the Coachella performance was chaotic. They really need to put in some work.
I think its a good thing that le sserafim are getting the level of criticism that they do get (not the hate, that's just cruel and unreasonable) because it will force them to improve... the fact that they have been in this industry for like 2 years and have gotten away with consistently bad vocal performance is kinda scary, and will definitely dilute the industry. If we take what happened with twice, although the controversy only really got louder between 2020 and 2021, it shifted something not only in twice but in the entirety of jyp.
like as soon as those encore stages happened with twice, the girls have put in work to improve... the weak vocals in twice (primarily sana and mono, two of my three biases - admittedly these were visual picks rather than vocal picks) are still far from amazing vocals, but dang the horror of bad live vocals really put the fear in god in those girls to force them to improve enough to carry their lines AT THE VERY LEAST. but it wasn't just twice, IT WAS THE ENTIRETY OF JYP, which was kinda a little funny to watch. Like ITZY does not have amazing strength in their vocals and their songs don't really require it either, BUT IT CANNOT BE DENIED THAT the girls do not shy away from a live performance, and actually almost pushed for more and more live vocals after what happened to twice (idk if it was their management or the girls themselves) almost to say that we can sing our songs (not that they were trying to shade their seniors but clearly wanted to ensure fans knew they could sing their songs and were able to carry any performance) and lets not even begin to talk about the vocals in NMIXX. Literally the most annoying part of this for me is that out of those three girl groups TWICE ITZY and NMIXX, NMIXX are the only ones I don't listen to because of the genre of songs but I have convinced myself to download and stan a few songs if not for the fucking phenomenal talent of the girls.
this is to say that hopefully hybe takes this like how jyp took their criticism for their vocals, although jyp does not have the most naturally talented singers with the most amazing natural range, you can see how much each of the vocals and pretty much most of the members have literally had to push themselves so far just to sound good in their own songs, and from their grow enough to explore and experiment and even enjoy singing.
i wish le sserafim didn't get 'celebrity syndrome'. it's so unattractive and tarnishes their image. I already wasn't a fan, but their attitudes solidify it.
Theyve regressed vocally as they havent sang any songs in their vocal range. Theyve all been such low songs along with the fact they havent taken many vocal lessons that its no wonder the girls are struggling. I feel bad for them :(
Girl dpo
Singing SHOULD matter if you're a vocalist. I don't get what's hard to understand about that. lol
The whole “performance-based group” thing is so weird. Like sorry but I don’t care if you can do backflips or lift your leg over your head! At the end of the day I’m listening to your music (voice) not your foot steps!
this goes back before easy, literally watch any of their actually live stages
Songs these days are more suited for pep rallies and intermissions than actual concerts.
No one is expecting all idols to be groundbreaking vocalists. They should be able to at least perform their own parts. Also the fact that Sakura and Kuzuha arent in the vocal line doesnt mean much.
The only time it is okay to have mid vocals (you still need to do decently live), imo, is when an idol is just great at something else.
Kai is well highlighted here. Lisa is another example. Theyre both such good dancers and performers that i can forgive their lack in impeccable vocals.
the thing i hate about kpop is the fans can't take someone else's opinion, let alone suggesting some objectivity that negates their opinion. like singing skills will always have an objective quality but also a huge subjective aspect to it, which people can't understand i swear... also the fact that any "negative" thing, aka constructuve criticism, is called hate and dismissed. some groups are just better singers than others, and that can be argued to an extent as to who has more skill and whatever but when the gap in skill is large enough i don't understand how fans still praise them like they are so much better?? idk just some thoughts
Amen. This comment ate.
I think the problem is also on the idols itself. I've seen countless of idols who went their way to hire vocal coaches w their own money just because they have the drive to improve.
Leseraffirm or wtv the spelling is, i'm assuming they already got their salaries and do have the resources to hire someone. Is it their responsibility to hire these for themselves? No, its the company's but in life, you can't just keep comparing what is given to others that isn't given to you. If they WANT to improve, they will find a way. Like what my mom would always tell me lmao "If you want to do it, you'll find a way, if you don't, you'll find many ways to give excuses"
I generally don't focus on groups i don't stan so i rarely comment about them. For the Le Sserafim i like some of their songs but i don't stan them in general (not because of their vocals but it's just.. nothing catched my attention). I'd never go to their concert, however, i used to attend some kpop festivals, with various groups performing. So theoretically i could be able to listen to them without attending the concert specifically for them. And tbh if i heard such weak performance after hours of waiting, i'd be totally dissapointed. So my point is - yes, ppl have every right to criticize (not hate) the weak performance, even if they're not a fan of specific group.
Stan NMIXX yall✌
And kiss of life
@@llighttyyagamiihey come on I love being a KISSY
i feel so bad for lsfm bc i did used to listen to their songs, but i’ve got to agree with the constructive criticism given here. hybe cannot get away with producing groups, with little to no vocal capabilities bc that hurts the idols a lot more than they think.
i read mediocrity and assmed this was about backpink lol those girls don't even try
ur mom didnt even try with you
You spoke about EVERYTHING I felt about the isssue. It's not that the girls are terrible and cant sing at all but they aren't amazing and def need some work and it's not a bad thing to admit. I stan groups both stong vocally and not so much and I don't expect every group to be exo, Tvxq etc. but yeah the bare minimum is holding a note and singing in a way that'll leave their vocal cords healthy. I also wish hybe would more at each members voice and change their sound a little as the songs are def too low for them which is not their strong suit. Also it'd be great to give them more training/ change their techniques and separate their techinques for live singing and studio singing it'd only make their artists lives easier. Thank u for this video! Totally agree with what u said.
I used to be a big Le Sserafim fan but ive cooled on them a little because of their vocals. Their stage presence isnt enough for me anymore. They need to improve before they lose more fans.
lesserafim should go on a hiatus for like half a year and then come back stronger (with improved vocals, of course!)
that may really work and doesn't affect the concept(I have faith in them), hybe really should change their practices too with their groups too
i dont think hybe will do it though, remember when source music wanted to sue anyone who say LS vocals are bad? yeah
@@athaya2992 dammit hybe
@@lix._zyhow bout now with their CB song CRAZY
Showing Infinite as the example for "vocally skilled idols" was soooo real
New gens kpop stand try so hard to normalized bad vocal in kpop because for them its all about the dance and choreograph. The more hard choreograph the more talented the idols is.
But for someone who started since second gen kpop we all know vocal and dance is the most important. That what kpop idol meaning to be.
If they only good at dance and not at vocal. What the difference between the idol and the back dancer? Same with the vocal. They are not an idols if they only good at vocal not dance.
there are many performance groups that have good vocals out there so to hear the excuse that le sserafim is a performance group and that they don't need to focus on vocals is baffling to me. twice is a performance group and they can sing live. jyp dance groups have great singers and they mainly focus on dance (2pm, miss a, got7, and itzy). i just find it weird to use that excuse
I feel like something people aren't talking is how this is a greater trend of hybe not caring that much able their girls. Like I'm sorry bit this would NEVER fly with txt and you can say lesserafim's is source music but look at illit and arguable new jeans. The point of the matter is hybe uts in the effort to train their male trainees to be all round and amazing but with female trainees they half-ass it.
I mean before we only had one or 2 members per group that can't sing and it's usually the visuals. Now it's all visuals with horrible vocals. 😅 I think companies are prioritizing visuals over talent nowadays...
They are all pretty but none really reaches a top visual level.
@@dont6771 fr like they all look the same anyway because of the surgeries. So basic and lifeless nowadays compared to 3rd gen and before. Bleak
Performance based groups don’t mean they can’t sing, that’s just a dumb excuse. Performance based groups are like Big Bang or 2NE1 and they sing just fine.
I fucking love BigBang
They r the reason for my extremely high performance standards in boy groups
They have it all
Haven't been able to move on from them
@@mominajamal5400isn’t top famous for being a poor dancer?
@@kpopnimation he is his own standard of dancing
He can and has made the stage shake just by standing and staring into the camera
Watch doom dada mama performance
@@mominajamal5400point is he is a weak dancer
So u can't really defend him on that
No body doubted his stage presence or his rapping skills
@@teenabaskar7000dem hips never lied tho