Another great video! I didn't see anything wrong with the original video? You are honest with your opinions & have the data to back it up. That is whats great with your videos you call it like it is & your videos hopefully help keep these companies wanting to make the best perfoming devices possible & not hype up their devices with gimmicks & useless marketing schemes. Device performance is priority & your channel is informing potential buyers of the honest performance of these devices..thank you. Keep up the great work 👍🏽
Thanks! I think the first version is significantly better but it was mean. Unfairly mean. I think this video, although rushed, at least shows all the data for you to decide. I don't give much for anecdotes, uses, also took out all the bits about the NB20k crashing all the time, which it does. But I did fix one mistake, and that is the user manual actually does show the usable capacity, that alone wouldn't get a video replaced, probably not even a pinned comment. Thanks for letting me know it wasn't as bad as I thought.
I looked into Nitecore for my next power bank, but I found a lot of people who complained about the durability of them. I ended up sticking with my current setup which is a bunch of Sanyo 18650 batteries and an XTAR PB2SL. Not practical for more most things, but I like the idea that if a battery tanks, I can just swap out the battery in question.
Nitecore has also huge quality problems with their flashlights. Seems like reliability isnt a big concern for nitecore. (Several nitecore lights have died on me. And same thing for many people on fb and reddit. It also not concentrated to a single product) So i would be careful with this company. Especially since a warranty claim is nearly impossible and customer service inexistent.
@@Superbus753 I have the Nitecore TIP SE keychain flashlight. There's nothing really comparable for it's size, output, and durability, but I have an occasional problem where it automatically turns on and won't shut off until about 30+ mins prob due to some short. Frequent complaint for this product. The 10K powerbank has durability issues as you said.
Your videos are great! I greatly appreciate all the work you put into each one. Thank you! I am wondering what you think about graphene battery banks? a video on those would be sweet!
They do constantly make small improvements, I think graphene like the Baseus blade HD with a 'silicon' battery are all minor changes and improvements to specific parts of the battery and would make good additions to the channel. Thanks for the suggestion.
Regardless of the look, your video are informative towards making a purchase. You are the consumer reports of this field. The humor breaks up the quantitative values (if you will) and makes this creative content. It's fun to watch and grow and make a meaningful purchase. Why not get a product that's more of what I needed. Your great and this video was clear (like the new camera). Support, support, support. It would be cool to get your videos in front of teams out in the field that require you expertise; B&H sould have to follow your data for recommendations. Continued success. Consumer reports should open the doors. My go to guy. Cheers
I wonder if LTT labs even gets notice from those other places, this channel is far smaller than 0.1% of that in views, and very part time. Anyway, there are plenty of other excellent youtubers out there doing amazing work. I am the very lowest level. Still very much learning the process. I learned in this video, to shut up and only list data. In terms of testing, there are many tests you see on products that are forced by law, when that law is repealed the products may get cheaper, sometimes worse or not change at all. I have found examples of cheaper. Why would a retailer post real data or use a 3rd party to post data? I'd like it, and it's what I do but that doesn't sell products. Banner specifications, bigger the better, that sells products. Retailer reviews are generally positive but also usually lack substance. Manufacturers add to the cost for every test they have to run, that cost gets passed to the consumer directly with a markup of course, so, you probably want less testing as a consumer from a purely cost perspective. None would be ideal from a monetary perspective. Is that a bad argument? Yes, but prove me wrong.
Just want to say I really appreciate your content. For what it's worth, I think your last video was great! You should call out companies making false claims to help out the average consumer. Keep up the great work!
Thanks! Yeah, I think people weren't ready for my storm of negativity around a product like this, see more unwelcome opinions. They are tiny and compact, not among top tier performance wise, and for twice the price it made me angry, which I genuinely showed in the first video and that emotional response made me wrong. I got ripped off. This video was a fail, oh well, time for the next one. UGREEN MEGA VIDEO, also a really bad idea, going to get no views, haha, see those damn opinions again. I'm joking of course, it'll be a good video.
I did not see the other video but this one did tell me all the important info need if I wanted to make a purchase and thank you for all the great videos!
First all thank you for all the great content you provide. It is rare to find content that is that detailed and also that great presented regarding these topics. I still find myself having trouble understanding all the technical units but your explanations and charts are helping a lot! Regarding the Nightcore powerbanks, I see a lot of people going crazy over them for their low weight and usage for hiking and traveling. I was wondering if there are any other powerbanks wich have a good Power to weight ratio but aren’t that expensive? Also what charger would you recommend for hiking/ traveling light? I was looking at the Google 30W charger, which you recommended or maybe a 30W or higher charger from Anker with 2 ports for simultaneously charging your phone and your powerbank. Thanks for all the videos and keep up the great work
Yeah, for the power adapter, sounds like you have the right idea. For the power bank itself, I dropped a lot out of this video where I explain there's other options. There's so much wrong with these I had to cut to make it agree with peoples opinions. In terms of usable energy, Anker wins with the 325 power bank, it's slow, but yeah it stores a lot of energy for the weight. The Iniu 20k 22.5W is also in the running, again slow. The NB20000 is also very good at low wattage, it's bad in many other ways though, like it's one of the worst if you use PD, which most of time it won't negotiate properly anyway, great when you are in the field.
@@AllThingsOnePlace It sucks that you had to cut the original recording, just because of other peoples opinion. I think that a detailed review with honest feedbag is the best way to approach a product. I really appreciate it, that you still uploaded the cut video with all the data and an conclusion! Also I just realized that the data even shows that (7:17) the Anker 325 is better than the Nitecore 20000 regarding Energy density!! When you say that the PD mode on the NB20000 is bad that means that it doesn't communicate with the object to charge efficiently and if it charges at a higher wattage it can't charge the object effectively ( /looses energy due to heat generation?). Since I don't plan on going hiking with a Laptop or anything with a high wattage consumption, I think that a slow charging powerbank is everything I need. I can't imagine anyone needing a light weight travel power bank that can supply 45 W, especially if it does so inefficiently. The Anker 325 seems like a way better investment. Do you how the other power banks from Anker (313 & 525) compete in comparison to the 325? I was really settled on getting the Nitecore 10000 but after watching your video, I am glad that I didn't. You saved me a lot of money and I even learned new things! Thank you again for your videos and your fast reply
I just checked and saw you already had a video up on the different Anker models and also on the Iniu 20k. But regarding the energy density and construction I still think the Anker 325 is the way to go, it would be just slightly better if there was also an USB-C Output.
Even with the description of the video, it was very useful information. Keep it up! I've had several and currently using a Motorola TurboPower Share (45W). Of course I dont have a reliable and professional way to test it, but it's fast and doesn't get hot...
Don’t feel pressured to delete/repost from comments man. You know your content better than any rando commenter. If you felt it was over the top, then for sure, but if you only repost because of complaints? You doing yourself a disservice. Fuck em, you know best
Thanks! Yeah, I probably could've left this one. Never will keep everyone happy for sure, this one had a response from people and they didn't see the data just the negativity, so that was wrong and why the video needed to go. The like to dislike ratio was actually higher than other videos, ha. I do think this version is substantially worse as it's basically a block of wood, here's the data you figure it out.
I am carrying the first generation NB10000 with me every day, for two years now - so far no complaints regarding it's durability, only several micro-scratches. While it is indeed expensive it is really light and compact, which was two main selling points for me. I've had several compact 10000 mAh power banks (like Samsung) in the past, but frequently found myself in situations when I just didn't want to carry them on me everyday (which in turn led to inability to charge my phone when needed), because of their size and weight. Not the case with NB10000. Also, this model line is waterproof. Not that this is a major feature, but deserved to be mentioned. So, main point is - if your main priority is compact size and light weight, this is the best option on the market currently.
I was choosing between this Nitecore NB10000 and Anker 533 10.000 mAh. Selected from Anker because it's almost the same weight and sizes, can charge/discharge at 25W and was half price on Amazon. The built-in display is also a pretty good feature overall. The only thing that's not great is that there's no pass-through feature, like here with Nitecore.
Mmm yeah. I think I have that anker here too but I haven’t tested it yet. I’m not sure. I think pass through is only really needed if you run out of ports in your primary charger.
I was going to get one of these for the weight, but they always had accidentally button presses and didnt want to buy a 3D printed solutionist to an issue they know and won't fix.
I'm loving your reviews! I was looking into nitecore's 10k because of its packability, which led me to wonder: do you have any 5k recommendations? Something that will just top off my phone and that fits anywhere? I notice most good units are chonkers and most times I just need a powerbank to help me get home and properly charge my phone on a wall brick. I thought about the Clutch Charger, but sadly it doesn't ship worldwide
Yeah, it's a category I haven't done much with, the Anker 5k Fusion is the only one I looked at so far. It was actually okay. Considering it's a charger and power bank it's very compact.
It seems to be difficult to get a power bank that does it all. One day ill be able to find a 10,000ma or so power bank that can charge my laptop on emergencies at 65W but charge my Samsung phones and have are fast input charge. My partner has a Baseus 20,000ma that we call "the brick" that works great but it's to big to carry around everyday. I love how fast it charges, it says its charging around 60-65w. Love you channel.
Yeah, the high wattage ones are probably some nonsense, like on a 24v system or something. I have a bunch of car chargers to check out though. It’ll be next year sometime.
I never saw the first video but I knew the moment you mentioned this being a re-upload that it would have been pretty negative. As an outdoor enthusiast I watch a lot of videos on taking advantage of the light weight nature of these banks - but aside the weight - nobody else i've witnessed has had positive words - to the point the banks themselves have stopped working quite fast or will stop charging randomly and you won't know till it's too late. But they get held up as great due to that weight - the ones giving these praise tend to also be the ones who saw off half their toothbrush for the weight saving - it's every milligram counts kinda territory
Yeah, I did talk about all the problems I had with just getting these to work in the first one and there were a lot of issues, cut anything negative, the fans of these were out in force... These are truly not good as power banks, they are light, but they also lie about the capacity to make number look more bigger. Also, they are not durable as you've mentioned. So, is that weight even worth it. I talked about that in my video, which made people mad. The number on the box says so, it must be correct... But yeah, the save the milligram is a complete farse, yeah, do those people also not drink water to save weight? Does that get them the KOM or a trip to the hospital?
I'm about to start a 3 year bicycle tour and need 2 powerbanks to power some small synthesizers and recording equipment. I have watched so many reviews and done so much research... I am totally glazing over. Can you recommend the best powerbank for powering small musical electronics? They can all be powered with usb or 9v wall warts. I am looking for something that is bike friendly, has 2 USB-A outputs and can be slow charged with a bicycle hub dynamo. (I am using a Son dynamo with an Igaro D2 USB converter) Cheers! And thanks for the informative videos.
Wow, three years of bicycling! Where to and from? Hopefully, not three years around in a small circle, ha. So, it comes down to current, if they can run on 5V from USB A then probably the Anker 325 is going to get you the most energy for a single pack. Being on the go for that long, I'd probably bring two, which is still cheaper than the nitecore options. The 325 is a slow charging, slow discharging device. It doesn't have any fast or high speed charging abilities. Far from the most efficient thing out there but if you are charging it with a bike then the 5 or 10 watts trickling should be a reasonable match.
@@AllThingsOnePlace Thanks for the reply!!! My wife and I are riding from Germany to Australia for the first leg. Then if we have energy and money, we will fly to Argentina and ride to Ushuaia and then up to Canada where I am from. Thanks for the recommendation, would you say that the Anker 325 is a better choice than the Baseus Adaman 65? I'm not too worried about the cost, I will get 2 powerbanks and hopefully get some that last the whole trip. Basically I am searching for the best/most robust/efficient... etc. Thanks!
@@davidlynch4338 That sounds like an epic trip. Just one of the places is epic, Germany has amazing cycling paths from my experience. Also, I am jealous. The 325 as I mentioned is a great low power option, it isn't fast charging or discharging, but the Baseus is more of a faster charging option, so it would handle things like a laptop and also being topped off faster at a rest stop or something. I haven't actually tested that one yet but I do have it here. A mix of one of each type of power bank isn't a bad option either.
@@AllThingsOnePlaceI have a few weeks before I need to buy my powerbanks. Maybe I'll wait for your Baseus review (no pressure ;) ). Maybe I am being irrational, but the Anker website and naming conventions frustrates me so much that I think they are pulling a fast one. I feel like as soon as I buy an Anker product it will become obsolete or that I will make a mistake choosing the right one.
Powerbanks are giving me a headache. Looking for a light powerbank with a fast input. I want to go bikepacking and save weight, but also don't want to wait 4h at a pitstop to charge my powerbank. So quick input is priority, but something like an anker 737 is overkill as I'm just charging a phone and earbuds..
Hi, thanks for the video. I'm not going to lie, I wanted to buy the Nitecore NB 20000 but I'm not sure now with your video. I am disappointed with the charging time of 4 hours 20 minutes. I planned to use the NB20000 with the Aukey 65w wall charger. What is the best power bank for long backpacking trips? We can't charge it overnight, so we need a power bank that charges quickly. It doesn't need to charge a laptop or quickly charge my electronic devices. All my electronic devices: • iPhone 15 Pro Max • Insta360 go3 • 2 Sony a6400 batteries • Headlamp • Garmin watch • Airpods Thank you
I would check with the reddit forum on backpacking. They probably would recommend one of these. You have quite a large amount of devices though so I'd probably make a different recommendation, like two Anker 325's but there are tons of devices I haven't tested so there may be much better out there. The ankers also charge really slow, aren't any better efficiency wise, but are a lot less expensive and you get more usable energy from each pack. They have a good record of lasting in time as well. The list of devices you show are mostly 5V devices, with exception of the iphone which, it can charge on 5V just fine, but slower. So, a little math required, with two packs you can have 140 wh of usable energy, whether the carbo in this video or another 20kmah pack. estimates: If each phone charge is 20 wh, camera 10wh, sony batteries 20 wh, headlamp 5 wh, watch 5 wh, airpods 5 wh, that is 65 wh to charge everything from zero, that gets you 2+ days off grid in one shot if you drain all the batteries every day fully. This is just an example of course. A solar charger or something may be an option to top off the packs during day time periods? Won't be perfect but if it gets you 10 watts, over a day that charges a pack fully. There's a lot of junk out in this category though. Forget the solar panel built in power banks those are mostly scams.
I really wanted to get this in 10k but my powerbank although weights twice as much as delivers twice as much watts so I guess I'll wait until a version of this powerbank can push out super fast charge speeds while maintaining it's light weight
It's funny because it seems like every travel or EDC channel uses these nitecore carbo or previous version power banks when there are so many better options that's fraction of the cost.
My head is melted been months trying to decide on a power bank for our two month gr10 Hiking trip. Watched loads of your videos and they are great but still can’t decide. Nightcore is the standard for thro hikers as it’s light but I’m not convinced of its durability and it’s slow to charge up. need to charge phones and small things like headtorches and 20000 size would be good or two 10,000s As we have to carry everything on our back, light is better. We will have a small rav solar panel but also want to be able to recharge power bank very quickly while having lunch or something in a café every few days. Have a titan 45 W plug already, so a 45 W input would be ideal. Had after much research, decided on a ugeeen 65w model, but they cannot post their power banks to Ireland, so I’m back to square one. Can you make a suggestion for me please?
I'd recommend two just from the reliability perspective. I do not recommend the nitecore ones, especially the 10k. The Anker 10k ones also charge slow, but they do have great capacity. The Iniu 15k is an interesting power bank in between that charges relatively quickly.
So for your info I ordered the 15,000 from iniu eu store. However they sent a 20,000 65 W one. I complained and re-ordered a 15,000 and another 20,000 arrived!!Customer service has been fairly good and have offered me a half refund if I want to keep it saying now that they no longer have the 15,000. Disappointing as it really seems the perfect one as the 20,000 is just a bit too heavy for backbacking. The very good quality so happy to have it for daily life just not for the hike back to square one with me
I applaud you for having the willingness to reconsider your work product, but WTH man? Your original post wasn't even close to what I consider to mean. At most it was mild professional irritation at having to review slipshod work. I don't know what the feedback you got was, but seriously - we are just a bunch of jerks on the internet. 🙂
haha, yeah, I got freaked and pulled it. I was nervous about it on posting and comments started rolling in that confirmed it wasn't the right angle. It was an attempt at making the video more entertaining and was probably one of my better videos for that. It was almost interesting to watch, way better than this trash that replaced it, this video sucks. If it is just about how it feels or looks then this channel isn't for you. Hard to not have an opinion or bias, if you're human at least. Those AI reviews are going to be great (see there's that sarcasm again)! I still have the iniu video in progress, maybe I will put post it notes everywhere that say 'be kind'.
I really wish I saw the first video because I have a feeling it would align with my thinking. I ended up returning the Nitecore because the case was warped and felt like overpriced garbage. The ultralight backpacking community is weirdly loyal to this brand though.
Not this battery specifically but I tried a 20k mah battery that gave a Po error. I thought it was broken but It seems like it's the cable? output 65 w it only charges my phone when I use the USB c cable that belongs to my phone charger but it only charges when I use the cable it came with.
They're all way under 160Wh. But who knows these days, I think it's more biased around how you behave and opinion than the specifications of the power bank.
Any of the smaller power banks I have seen tend to be lower wattage only. This is a limitation of the battery configuration usually. Although, I did the math and two 21700 cells should be able to keep up with 25W charging so I guess it's also the limitations of built down to a price. The expensive lower capacity ones don't offer the better performance, they just charge you more money for the same product is my experience with power banks so far.
I don't have a specific recommendation for a charger for that device yet. But, in general, any 30 watt or less charger will max out the charging speed. A 20 watt charger will be fine, like that recommended by apple.
I don't think you should refrain from giving your opinion. If we just wanted data, we'd look at spreadsheets, not a video. They seem like (light) piles of crap clad in carbon fiber to me. 7:11 Are the energy density values based on the measured *restituted* energy?
Yeah, the 10k is also very inefficient, but for some reason everything else I've tested is also much lower efficiency at this battery size compared with other sizes.
Think I'll hold off without a powerbank till you get a review. Unless I risk 20 dollars for a baseus 20k mah one (best valu atm). Risk bec their GaN charger burnt outside warranty. No smoke, just a rubbery smell. Sucks.
Ty. Def won’t buy. Wondering if you’ve reviewed the NEWDERY for Apple Watch Charger, 10000mAh Portable Charger and if so the link to it as I don’t know how to search for a particular video on your page. Thanks again.
448 things on the list now, ha. No way I'm catching up. I should just make a video going through the list. Boring content but can get people to come to a consensus and argue with one is more important to be on the channel sooner.
My commentary was too mean. Also, carbo being arguably world's lightest, it is very light, but my issue with it was the capacity is likely over rated by a decent margin to make it fit the 20k mAh class. So, the weight they gained is likely a smaller battery so stretching definitions of worlds lightest, it's sloppy marketing is the point I was trying and failed miserably to make. The video had one actual mistake, the user manual does state the 'usable capacity' so I fixed that, I wouldn't replace for that, every video has mistakes like that. The overall mean tone was the reason to replace, maybe justified, I spent a lot of money and didn't get a lot of performance.
To be honest, i didnt think you were mean, you talked with a detailed technical data in hand as proof, and most users know nothing about these facts/limitations of physics, i think you were spot on, they are overpriced and underperforming by a large margin, thank you for all your effort and please continue to englighting people. 🙏🏻❤️
Reposting my comment on the previous video: I feel 18W is plenty for phones, iPhone 15 only charges at 20W after all. Higher output power banks are inherently heavier, so it's a reasonable trade-off depending on your use case. Personally, power banks are the emergency backup solutions that I carry every day but do not use often, so for me energy density is more important than the rate of charging. I am fine with filling it up overnight after use. The rated energy is supposed to be the usable capacity. Pretty much every one has that spec. How accurate that is though, is not clear. It also (usually) specifies the spec only at a certain output mode, which is where the manufacturer can play around with data... for example, in the NB10000, the rated energy is listed as 6400 mAh @ 5V 1A, which means it's only applicable during 5W charging! Different voltage/ampere outputs will affect the efficiency significantly. You have tested 25W and 45W on one of the power banks, but have you tested several modes on the others? Testing at different output voltages would be nice. Also some additional questions: Are the energy density figures calculated using actual usable energy after efficiency losses? How do you measure the actual capacity of the batteries and efficiency of discharge? Finally, I would like to suggest reviews of two ~10000 mAh, dual USB-C power banks. One is ISDT PB40 (yeah I know the 200X is really bad...), it claims to have pass through and can serve as a UPS, as well as independent 18W output totaling 36W for two devices (talking about which, you didn't seem to test multi-output scenarios). It's also decently light at ~190 g, typical for these dual 21700 designs. And yeah, it again has an app (that you can use to set maximum charge to 80% for example). The other is Samsung P3400, a bit heavier (~210 g) but from an extremely reputable manufacturer and supports 25 W charging, with seemingly better build quality and components based on Chargerlab/chongdiantou's teardowns. The P3400 also has it's capacity rated at actual output rates (6600mAh@5V3A and 3600mAh@9V2.77A) instead of the unrealistic 5V1A.
Thanks! I usually only test two power levels for each. Time optimization problem. Usually full power and half power. In this case 25w since it’s the Samsung intended use case. My density figures always include losses as this is how the pack performs as a unit. The batteries and each individual circuit would be much better. I measure by using an integrating meter on both ends of the cycle. Charging and discharging. Yeah, I’m gonna steer clear of isdt for a while but I did put it and the others on the list to check out. As is in this video, I’ll just stick to presenting the data.
@@Zanzibar2Far Thanks for the correction, I double checked Charger Lab's reviews, 15/15 Pro charges at 20W max, while 15 Plus/15 Pro Max can charge at 27W max.
@@AllThingsOnePlace Two power levels is fair given time constraints. If I understand correctly, you can test how much energy is needed to fill the battery up, and how much energy it can release, but not the actual energy it is holding, is that correct? In this case, the efficiency of discharge cannot be accurately determined and relies on the assumption that the Wh figure provided is accurate. I know it doesn't * really * matter, as the actual things a user would like to know is the actual usable capacity as well as the heat generated (and whether it thermal throttles), it's just that I would like to understand the values better.
The rated energy is the energy capacity of the battery cells inside the power bank, before losses, in every power bank I have used and seen. Usable energy is always less, so it's cool to see a manufacturer giving an estimate of it.
![[TH]FFWS SEA 2024 Fall - Knockout Stage Day 5](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/N2tl9xkQyyU/mqdefault.jpg)
Another great video! I didn't see anything wrong with the original video? You are honest with your opinions & have the data to back it up. That is whats great with your videos you call it like it is & your videos hopefully help keep these companies wanting to make the best perfoming devices possible & not hype up their devices with gimmicks & useless marketing schemes. Device performance is priority & your channel is informing potential buyers of the honest performance of these devices..thank you. Keep up the great work 👍🏽
Thanks! I think the first version is significantly better but it was mean. Unfairly mean. I think this video, although rushed, at least shows all the data for you to decide. I don't give much for anecdotes, uses, also took out all the bits about the NB20k crashing all the time, which it does. But I did fix one mistake, and that is the user manual actually does show the usable capacity, that alone wouldn't get a video replaced, probably not even a pinned comment. Thanks for letting me know it wasn't as bad as I thought.
Keep up the great work that you do.
I looked into Nitecore for my next power bank, but I found a lot of people who complained about the durability of them. I ended up sticking with my current setup which is a bunch of Sanyo 18650 batteries and an XTAR PB2SL. Not practical for more most things, but I like the idea that if a battery tanks, I can just swap out the battery in question.
I have that one to check out too.
My xtar caught smoke. Be careful out there
Nitecore has also huge quality problems with their flashlights. Seems like reliability isnt a big concern for nitecore. (Several nitecore lights have died on me. And same thing for many people on fb and reddit. It also not concentrated to a single product)
So i would be careful with this company. Especially since a warranty claim is nearly impossible and customer service inexistent.
@@Superbus753 I have the Nitecore TIP SE keychain flashlight. There's nothing really comparable for it's size, output, and durability, but I have an occasional problem where it automatically turns on and won't shut off until about 30+ mins prob due to some short. Frequent complaint for this product. The 10K powerbank has durability issues as you said.
I've also experienced 2 Nitecore flashlights die on me... Other 3 are working fine, so it's a coin flip...
Your videos are great! I greatly appreciate all the work you put into each one. Thank you! I am wondering what you think about graphene battery banks? a video on those would be sweet!
They do constantly make small improvements, I think graphene like the Baseus blade HD with a 'silicon' battery are all minor changes and improvements to specific parts of the battery and would make good additions to the channel. Thanks for the suggestion.
Regardless of the look, your video are informative towards making a purchase. You are the consumer reports of this field. The humor breaks up the quantitative values (if you will) and makes this creative content. It's fun to watch and grow and make a meaningful purchase. Why not get a product that's more of what I needed. Your great and this video was clear (like the new camera). Support, support, support. It would be cool to get your videos in front of teams out in the field that require you expertise; B&H sould have to follow your data for recommendations. Continued success. Consumer reports should open the doors. My go to guy. Cheers
I wonder if LTT labs even gets notice from those other places, this channel is far smaller than 0.1% of that in views, and very part time. Anyway, there are plenty of other excellent youtubers out there doing amazing work. I am the very lowest level. Still very much learning the process. I learned in this video, to shut up and only list data. In terms of testing, there are many tests you see on products that are forced by law, when that law is repealed the products may get cheaper, sometimes worse or not change at all. I have found examples of cheaper.
Why would a retailer post real data or use a 3rd party to post data? I'd like it, and it's what I do but that doesn't sell products. Banner specifications, bigger the better, that sells products. Retailer reviews are generally positive but also usually lack substance. Manufacturers add to the cost for every test they have to run, that cost gets passed to the consumer directly with a markup of course, so, you probably want less testing as a consumer from a purely cost perspective. None would be ideal from a monetary perspective. Is that a bad argument? Yes, but prove me wrong.
Dang. I missed the first video! I would have enjoyed seeing it.
haha, it was so mean. Way over the top, even for me.
Hey again!
I appreciate the work and care you put into the videos and the channel. It really shows how much you care in the re-upload.
Thanks. Yeah. This video isn’t good either but at least it presents the data.
Just want to say I really appreciate your content. For what it's worth, I think your last video was great! You should call out companies making false claims to help out the average consumer. Keep up the great work!
Thanks! Yeah, I think people weren't ready for my storm of negativity around a product like this, see more unwelcome opinions. They are tiny and compact, not among top tier performance wise, and for twice the price it made me angry, which I genuinely showed in the first video and that emotional response made me wrong. I got ripped off. This video was a fail, oh well, time for the next one. UGREEN MEGA VIDEO, also a really bad idea, going to get no views, haha, see those damn opinions again. I'm joking of course, it'll be a good video.
I did not see the other video but this one did tell me all the important info need if I wanted to make a purchase and thank you for all the great videos!
Yeah, this is the fast data only version. I did also cut any of the issues I had with them during operation. Which, for the NB20000 was a lot.
First all thank you for all the great content you provide. It is rare to find content that is that detailed and also that great presented regarding these topics. I still find myself having trouble understanding all the technical units but your explanations and charts are helping a lot!
Regarding the Nightcore powerbanks, I see a lot of people going crazy over them for their low weight and usage for hiking and traveling. I was wondering if there are any other powerbanks wich have a good Power to weight ratio but aren’t that expensive?
Also what charger would you recommend for hiking/ traveling light? I was looking at the Google 30W charger, which you recommended or maybe a 30W or higher charger from Anker with 2 ports for simultaneously charging your phone and your powerbank.
Thanks for all the videos and keep up the great work
Yeah, for the power adapter, sounds like you have the right idea. For the power bank itself, I dropped a lot out of this video where I explain there's other options. There's so much wrong with these I had to cut to make it agree with peoples opinions.
In terms of usable energy, Anker wins with the 325 power bank, it's slow, but yeah it stores a lot of energy for the weight. The Iniu 20k 22.5W is also in the running, again slow. The NB20000 is also very good at low wattage, it's bad in many other ways though, like it's one of the worst if you use PD, which most of time it won't negotiate properly anyway, great when you are in the field.
@@AllThingsOnePlace It sucks that you had to cut the original recording, just because of other peoples opinion. I think that a detailed review with honest feedbag is the best way to approach a product. I really appreciate it, that you still uploaded the cut video with all the data and an conclusion!
Also I just realized that the data even shows that (7:17) the Anker 325 is better than the Nitecore 20000 regarding Energy density!!
When you say that the PD mode on the NB20000 is bad that means that it doesn't communicate with the object to charge efficiently and if it charges at a higher wattage it can't charge the object effectively ( /looses energy due to heat generation?).
Since I don't plan on going hiking with a Laptop or anything with a high wattage consumption, I think that a slow charging powerbank is everything I need.
I can't imagine anyone needing a light weight travel power bank that can supply 45 W, especially if it does so inefficiently. The Anker 325 seems like a way better investment.
Do you how the other power banks from Anker (313 & 525) compete in comparison to the 325?
I was really settled on getting the Nitecore 10000 but after watching your video, I am glad that I didn't. You saved me a lot of money and I even learned new things!
Thank you again for your videos and your fast reply
I just checked and saw you already had a video up on the different Anker models and also on the Iniu 20k. But regarding the energy density and construction I still think the Anker 325 is the way to go, it would be just slightly better if there was also an USB-C Output.
Even with the description of the video, it was very useful information. Keep it up!
I've had several and currently using a Motorola TurboPower Share (45W). Of course I dont have a reliable and professional way to test it, but it's fast and doesn't get hot...
Yeah, there are a few out there I've found that work (Iniu has seemed like a reasonable choice). The weight shaving on these impacts performance.
Don’t feel pressured to delete/repost from comments man. You know your content better than any rando commenter. If you felt it was over the top, then for sure, but if you only repost because of complaints? You doing yourself a disservice. Fuck em, you know best
Thanks! Yeah, I probably could've left this one. Never will keep everyone happy for sure, this one had a response from people and they didn't see the data just the negativity, so that was wrong and why the video needed to go. The like to dislike ratio was actually higher than other videos, ha. I do think this version is substantially worse as it's basically a block of wood, here's the data you figure it out.
I am carrying the first generation NB10000 with me every day, for two years now - so far no complaints regarding it's durability, only several micro-scratches. While it is indeed expensive it is really light and compact, which was two main selling points for me. I've had several compact 10000 mAh power banks (like Samsung) in the past, but frequently found myself in situations when I just didn't want to carry them on me everyday (which in turn led to inability to charge my phone when needed), because of their size and weight. Not the case with NB10000. Also, this model line is waterproof. Not that this is a major feature, but deserved to be mentioned. So, main point is - if your main priority is compact size and light weight, this is the best option on the market currently.
Thanks.
When you have one too many energy drinks and/or expresso shots…
I had less today, haha.
what is expresso?
does it have something to do with espresso?
@@stclaws9580, try not to be a douche…
@@thomasjparks try not to make up words...
The douche is back….
I was choosing between this Nitecore NB10000 and Anker 533 10.000 mAh. Selected from Anker because it's almost the same weight and sizes, can charge/discharge at 25W and was half price on Amazon. The built-in display is also a pretty good feature overall. The only thing that's not great is that there's no pass-through feature, like here with Nitecore.
To avoid confusion, I’m about Anker 533 PowerCore 25W, the flat design model, model number A1249.
Mmm yeah. I think I have that anker here too but I haven’t tested it yet. I’m not sure. I think pass through is only really needed if you run out of ports in your primary charger.
How much does that weight? The 246 g I can found on amazon means that they are of completely different weight classes.
@@MY-qi8wq Item Weight: 172 g
Product Dimensions: 15.2 x 7.1 x 1.5 cm
Yes! I've got a couple of these units.
Thanks for watching!
Love your videos! I have watch so many trying to find the best one for my Legion Go. Can you do a review on the CUKTECH 20
449 things on the list. Thanks for the suggestion.
love you Vid! Can you make a comparison with the Klarus K5?
I added it to the list.
I liked this video, and thought it was helpful. Thanks...
Glad it was helpful!
I was going to get one of these for the weight, but they always had accidentally button presses and didnt want to buy a 3D printed solutionist to an issue they know and won't fix.
haha, yeah the buttons do press quite easily.
I'm loving your reviews! I was looking into nitecore's 10k because of its packability, which led me to wonder: do you have any 5k recommendations? Something that will just top off my phone and that fits anywhere? I notice most good units are chonkers and most times I just need a powerbank to help me get home and properly charge my phone on a wall brick. I thought about the Clutch Charger, but sadly it doesn't ship worldwide
Yeah, it's a category I haven't done much with, the Anker 5k Fusion is the only one I looked at so far. It was actually okay. Considering it's a charger and power bank it's very compact.
It seems to be difficult to get a power bank that does it all.
One day ill be able to find a 10,000ma or so power bank that can charge my laptop on emergencies at 65W but charge my Samsung phones and have are fast input charge. My partner has a Baseus 20,000ma that we call "the brick" that works great but it's to big to carry around everyday.
I love how fast it charges, it says its charging around 60-65w.
Love you channel.
Yeah, there are reasons that 10kmAh won't do 65W but yeah, 30W is a reasonable request for a power bank that size but I haven't found any yet.
Do you check car chargers? There's a lot of new ones coming out claiming support for PD3.1 and some crazy watt output.
Yeah, the high wattage ones are probably some nonsense, like on a 24v system or something. I have a bunch of car chargers to check out though. It’ll be next year sometime.
I never saw the first video but I knew the moment you mentioned this being a re-upload that it would have been pretty negative. As an outdoor enthusiast I watch a lot of videos on taking advantage of the light weight nature of these banks - but aside the weight - nobody else i've witnessed has had positive words - to the point the banks themselves have stopped working quite fast or will stop charging randomly and you won't know till it's too late.
But they get held up as great due to that weight - the ones giving these praise tend to also be the ones who saw off half their toothbrush for the weight saving - it's every milligram counts kinda territory
Yeah, I did talk about all the problems I had with just getting these to work in the first one and there were a lot of issues, cut anything negative, the fans of these were out in force... These are truly not good as power banks, they are light, but they also lie about the capacity to make number look more bigger. Also, they are not durable as you've mentioned. So, is that weight even worth it. I talked about that in my video, which made people mad. The number on the box says so, it must be correct... But yeah, the save the milligram is a complete farse, yeah, do those people also not drink water to save weight? Does that get them the KOM or a trip to the hospital?
I'm about to start a 3 year bicycle tour and need 2 powerbanks to power some small synthesizers and recording equipment.
I have watched so many reviews and done so much research... I am totally glazing over.
Can you recommend the best powerbank for powering small musical electronics? They can all be powered with usb or 9v wall warts.
I am looking for something that is bike friendly, has 2 USB-A outputs and can be slow charged with a bicycle hub dynamo. (I am using a Son dynamo with an Igaro D2 USB converter)
Cheers! And thanks for the informative videos.
Wow, three years of bicycling! Where to and from? Hopefully, not three years around in a small circle, ha. So, it comes down to current, if they can run on 5V from USB A then probably the Anker 325 is going to get you the most energy for a single pack. Being on the go for that long, I'd probably bring two, which is still cheaper than the nitecore options. The 325 is a slow charging, slow discharging device. It doesn't have any fast or high speed charging abilities. Far from the most efficient thing out there but if you are charging it with a bike then the 5 or 10 watts trickling should be a reasonable match.
@@AllThingsOnePlace Thanks for the reply!!!
My wife and I are riding from Germany to Australia for the first leg. Then if we have energy and money, we will fly to Argentina and ride to Ushuaia and then up to Canada where I am from.
Thanks for the recommendation, would you say that the Anker 325 is a better choice than the Baseus Adaman 65?
I'm not too worried about the cost, I will get 2 powerbanks and hopefully get some that last the whole trip. Basically I am searching for the best/most robust/efficient... etc.
Thanks!
@@davidlynch4338 That sounds like an epic trip. Just one of the places is epic, Germany has amazing cycling paths from my experience. Also, I am jealous. The 325 as I mentioned is a great low power option, it isn't fast charging or discharging, but the Baseus is more of a faster charging option, so it would handle things like a laptop and also being topped off faster at a rest stop or something. I haven't actually tested that one yet but I do have it here. A mix of one of each type of power bank isn't a bad option either.
@@AllThingsOnePlace Thanks for your help!!!
@@AllThingsOnePlaceI have a few weeks before I need to buy my powerbanks. Maybe I'll wait for your Baseus review (no pressure ;) ).
Maybe I am being irrational, but the Anker website and naming conventions frustrates me so much that I think they are pulling a fast one. I feel like as soon as I buy an Anker product it will become obsolete or that I will make a mistake choosing the right one.
Thanks for doing this one!
No problem.
Please do review for voltme charger amazing charger 🎉
I think I have already done some, more to come, at least in shorts.
I didn't think the last video was that bad. It was quite negative but they didn't meet their stated claims after all.
Thanks. Yeah. I thought it was too mean. Oh well. This version is terrible but data is available at least.
I have 1,235 of these as a home power backup system and they work great
ok
Please test the inui b63 and b64. other technical reviewers are excited for them but wish to know your "unrelenting" impressions on them. ;)
Thanks for the suggestions, the B63 will be on the way, January I think. the B64 will not be for a long while.
@@AllThingsOnePlacehow long is your backlog?
@@geofftech 40+ devices. I test an average of 1 or 2 per month. So, the backlog is uncomfortable to think about for a part timer.
Powerbanks are giving me a headache. Looking for a light powerbank with a fast input. I want to go bikepacking and save weight, but also don't want to wait 4h at a pitstop to charge my powerbank. So quick input is priority, but something like an anker 737 is overkill as I'm just charging a phone and earbuds..
Yeah, check out iniu, the 15k is kind of alright.
Hi, thanks for the video. I'm not going to lie, I wanted to buy the Nitecore NB 20000 but I'm not sure now with your video. I am disappointed with the charging time of 4 hours 20 minutes. I planned to use the NB20000 with the Aukey 65w wall charger.
What is the best power bank for long backpacking trips? We can't charge it overnight, so we need a power bank that charges quickly. It doesn't need to charge a laptop or quickly charge my electronic devices.
All my electronic devices:
• iPhone 15 Pro Max
• Insta360 go3
• 2 Sony a6400 batteries
• Headlamp
• Garmin watch
• Airpods
Thank you
I would check with the reddit forum on backpacking. They probably would recommend one of these. You have quite a large amount of devices though so I'd probably make a different recommendation, like two Anker 325's but there are tons of devices I haven't tested so there may be much better out there. The ankers also charge really slow, aren't any better efficiency wise, but are a lot less expensive and you get more usable energy from each pack. They have a good record of lasting in time as well. The list of devices you show are mostly 5V devices, with exception of the iphone which, it can charge on 5V just fine, but slower.
So, a little math required, with two packs you can have 140 wh of usable energy, whether the carbo in this video or another 20kmah pack. estimates: If each phone charge is 20 wh, camera 10wh, sony batteries 20 wh, headlamp 5 wh, watch 5 wh, airpods 5 wh, that is 65 wh to charge everything from zero, that gets you 2+ days off grid in one shot if you drain all the batteries every day fully. This is just an example of course. A solar charger or something may be an option to top off the packs during day time periods? Won't be perfect but if it gets you 10 watts, over a day that charges a pack fully. There's a lot of junk out in this category though. Forget the solar panel built in power banks those are mostly scams.
What was bad about the previous video?
Me. The presenter was bad haha.
I watched the original version and I didn’t hear any issues with it.
I was half asleep so maybe I missed something…
I really wanted to get this in 10k but my powerbank although weights twice as much as delivers twice as much watts so I guess I'll wait until a version of this powerbank can push out super fast charge speeds while maintaining it's light weight
Yeah, I don't really recommend any of these.
It's funny because it seems like every travel or EDC channel uses these nitecore carbo or previous version power banks when there are so many better options that's fraction of the cost.
My head is melted been months trying to decide on a power bank for our two month gr10 Hiking trip. Watched loads of your videos and they are great but still can’t decide. Nightcore is the standard for thro hikers as it’s light but I’m not convinced of its durability and it’s slow to charge up. need to charge phones and small things like headtorches and 20000 size would be good or two 10,000s As we have to carry everything on our back, light is better. We will have a small rav solar panel but also want to be able to recharge power bank very quickly while having lunch or something in a café every few days. Have a titan 45 W plug already, so a 45 W input would be ideal. Had after much research, decided on a ugeeen 65w model, but they cannot post their power banks to Ireland, so I’m back to square one. Can you make a suggestion for me please?
I'd recommend two just from the reliability perspective. I do not recommend the nitecore ones, especially the 10k. The Anker 10k ones also charge slow, but they do have great capacity. The Iniu 15k is an interesting power bank in between that charges relatively quickly.
@@AllThingsOnePlace thanks for that I have just ordered the 15k iniu
So for your info I ordered the 15,000 from iniu eu store. However they sent a 20,000 65 W one. I complained and re-ordered a 15,000 and another 20,000 arrived!!Customer service has been fairly good and have offered me a half refund if I want to keep it saying now that they no longer have the 15,000. Disappointing as it really seems the perfect one as the 20,000 is just a bit too heavy for backbacking. The very good quality so happy to have it for daily life just not for the hike back to square one with me
You are using a 25cm satechi cable for all tests, is it a good option among 25cm cables? And is that usb4 version or regular type c satechi?
It is the regular USB C version. It is a good option.
I applaud you for having the willingness to reconsider your work product, but WTH man? Your original post wasn't even close to what I consider to mean. At most it was mild professional irritation at having to review slipshod work. I don't know what the feedback you got was, but seriously - we are just a bunch of jerks on the internet. 🙂
haha, yeah, I got freaked and pulled it. I was nervous about it on posting and comments started rolling in that confirmed it wasn't the right angle. It was an attempt at making the video more entertaining and was probably one of my better videos for that. It was almost interesting to watch, way better than this trash that replaced it, this video sucks. If it is just about how it feels or looks then this channel isn't for you. Hard to not have an opinion or bias, if you're human at least. Those AI reviews are going to be great (see there's that sarcasm again)! I still have the iniu video in progress, maybe I will put post it notes everywhere that say 'be kind'.
I really wish I saw the first video because I have a feeling it would align with my thinking. I ended up returning the Nitecore because the case was warped and felt like overpriced garbage. The ultralight backpacking community is weirdly loyal to this brand though.
Not this battery specifically but I tried a 20k mah battery that gave a Po error.
I thought it was broken but
It seems like it's the cable? output 65 w it only charges my phone when I use the USB c cable that belongs to my phone charger but it only charges when I use the cable it came with.
Yeah, that's pretty unusual but it sounds like it's a protocol issue.
Thing I'll keep my Ankers :)
Yeah, I said that in the first version of this video, people were pissed.
For these nitecore models they're all at over 160WH
Will they pose a problem as flight carry ons?
They're all way under 160Wh. But who knows these days, I think it's more biased around how you behave and opinion than the specifications of the power bank.
so the packagingweighing got cut, nice
Haha. Yep, I mean the video of it. I still say it.
Do you have any anker powerbanks recommendation that supports 25w samsung super fast charging (
Any of the smaller power banks I have seen tend to be lower wattage only. This is a limitation of the battery configuration usually. Although, I did the math and two 21700 cells should be able to keep up with 25W charging so I guess it's also the limitations of built down to a price. The expensive lower capacity ones don't offer the better performance, they just charge you more money for the same product is my experience with power banks so far.
Ho brother .. can you guide me some vharger which are better than iphone charger im using 15 pro max.. which charger do you suggest plz
I don't have a specific recommendation for a charger for that device yet. But, in general, any 30 watt or less charger will max out the charging speed. A 20 watt charger will be fine, like that recommended by apple.
Do a review on Baseuse 140watt power bank
It is on the list, and here.
I thought the stickers you were putting on the power banks said “POS” LoL (PQS - small phone screen- big difference in meaning)
Hah yeah. I noticed that as well.
Could you please add the Belkin BoostCharge Pro 140W 4-Port GaN Wall Charger to your long list?
:) On it. Thanks! 504 Items! I want to make an interactive web page with these that people can vote items to the top.
I don't think you should refrain from giving your opinion. If we just wanted data, we'd look at spreadsheets, not a video.
They seem like (light) piles of crap clad in carbon fiber to me.
7:11 Are the energy density values based on the measured *restituted* energy?
It is calculated from the measured supplied energy after a full charge.
Dang, my Xiaomi 3 10k power bank is 250 grams, 100g heavier for same capacity. But it's solid metal brick and cheap.
Yeah, the 10k is also very inefficient, but for some reason everything else I've tested is also much lower efficiency at this battery size compared with other sizes.
I have the 10k and it's really in a size class of its own. Most people will be fine with a smaller 5k for daily top ups.
That’s one reason why I had to replace the video. The data didn’t confirm the feeling people get from it.
Think I'll hold off without a powerbank till you get a review. Unless I risk 20 dollars for a baseus 20k mah one (best valu atm). Risk bec their GaN charger burnt outside warranty. No smoke, just a rubbery smell. Sucks.
Yeah, these nitecore ones are something. Baseus does present good value in a lot of markets but that risk of poor quality control is always present.
Ty. Def won’t buy. Wondering if you’ve reviewed the NEWDERY for Apple Watch Charger, 10000mAh Portable Charger and if so the link to it as I don’t know how to search for a particular video on your page. Thanks again.
448 things on the list now, ha. No way I'm catching up. I should just make a video going through the list. Boring content but can get people to come to a consensus and argue with one is more important to be on the channel sooner.
What was wrong with the first video if i may ask?
My commentary was too mean. Also, carbo being arguably world's lightest, it is very light, but my issue with it was the capacity is likely over rated by a decent margin to make it fit the 20k mAh class. So, the weight they gained is likely a smaller battery so stretching definitions of worlds lightest, it's sloppy marketing is the point I was trying and failed miserably to make. The video had one actual mistake, the user manual does state the 'usable capacity' so I fixed that, I wouldn't replace for that, every video has mistakes like that. The overall mean tone was the reason to replace, maybe justified, I spent a lot of money and didn't get a lot of performance.
To be honest, i didnt think you were mean, you talked with a detailed technical data in hand as proof, and most users know nothing about these facts/limitations of physics, i think you were spot on, they are overpriced and underperforming by a large margin, thank you for all your effort and please continue to englighting people. 🙏🏻❤️
I thought your bashing in the last video was kind of funny tbh. 😅
A 38Wh power bank for $60? You've got to be kidding me! Most power banks in this class are $20-30.
Yeah, that’s where I kind of went off the rails being mean in the first video. Glad you noticed.
Reposting my comment on the previous video:
I feel 18W is plenty for phones, iPhone 15 only charges at 20W after all. Higher output power banks are inherently heavier, so it's a reasonable trade-off depending on your use case. Personally, power banks are the emergency backup solutions that I carry every day but do not use often, so for me energy density is more important than the rate of charging. I am fine with filling it up overnight after use.
The rated energy is supposed to be the usable capacity. Pretty much every one has that spec. How accurate that is though, is not clear. It also (usually) specifies the spec only at a certain output mode, which is where the manufacturer can play around with data... for example, in the NB10000, the rated energy is listed as 6400 mAh @ 5V 1A, which means it's only applicable during 5W charging! Different voltage/ampere outputs will affect the efficiency significantly. You have tested 25W and 45W on one of the power banks, but have you tested several modes on the others? Testing at different output voltages would be nice.
Also some additional questions: Are the energy density figures calculated using actual usable energy after efficiency losses? How do you measure the actual capacity of the batteries and efficiency of discharge?
Finally, I would like to suggest reviews of two ~10000 mAh, dual USB-C power banks. One is ISDT PB40 (yeah I know the 200X is really bad...), it claims to have pass through and can serve as a UPS, as well as independent 18W output totaling 36W for two devices (talking about which, you didn't seem to test multi-output scenarios). It's also decently light at ~190 g, typical for these dual 21700 designs. And yeah, it again has an app (that you can use to set maximum charge to 80% for example). The other is Samsung P3400, a bit heavier (~210 g) but from an extremely reputable manufacturer and supports 25 W charging, with seemingly better build quality and components based on Chargerlab/chongdiantou's teardowns. The P3400 also has it's capacity rated at actual output rates (6600mAh@5V3A and 3600mAh@9V2.77A) instead of the unrealistic 5V1A.
Thanks! I usually only test two power levels for each. Time optimization problem. Usually full power and half power. In this case 25w since it’s the Samsung intended use case. My density figures always include losses as this is how the pack performs as a unit. The batteries and each individual circuit would be much better. I measure by using an integrating meter on both ends of the cycle. Charging and discharging. Yeah, I’m gonna steer clear of isdt for a while but I did put it and the others on the list to check out. As is in this video, I’ll just stick to presenting the data.
iPhone 15/15 Pro can charge at 27W, as can iPhone 14
@@Zanzibar2Far Thanks for the correction, I double checked Charger Lab's reviews, 15/15 Pro charges at 20W max, while 15 Plus/15 Pro Max can charge at 27W max.
@@AllThingsOnePlace Two power levels is fair given time constraints.
If I understand correctly, you can test how much energy is needed to fill the battery up, and how much energy it can release, but not the actual energy it is holding, is that correct? In this case, the efficiency of discharge cannot be accurately determined and relies on the assumption that the Wh figure provided is accurate. I know it doesn't * really * matter, as the actual things a user would like to know is the actual usable capacity as well as the heat generated (and whether it thermal throttles), it's just that I would like to understand the values better.
The rated energy is the energy capacity of the battery cells inside the power bank, before losses, in every power bank I have used and seen. Usable energy is always less, so it's cool to see a manufacturer giving an estimate of it.
lol I see what's going on here 😁
In the end, this version is more appropriate.