What If Sonja Was Incredibly Rich?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 2 ก.ค. 2024
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🕑 Timestamps:
0:00 Intro
8:15 Match
01:01:02 Ending
What If Sonja Was Incredibly Rich?
This is a replay commentary of a game played over at AWBW, a website that allows you to play Advance Wars against other human opponents.
#advancewars #multiplayer #awbw - เกม
Of course Jake would know how to effectively use death balls, which he calls mosh pits.
I find it kind of amusing Mangs bashes Colin players because they throw their money away and take bad engagements, only for him to play like a Colin main when he's playing high income matches.
One thing to note: it's even better to leave the pipe seam unbroken because it hides the fact that you've captured the airport, as pipe seams can be seen through fog of war. Having your opponent always be second guessing if you have b. copters/bombers until you engage with them is really powerful.
what pipe seam
@@Droooooo0 the one blocking the airport, making them choose between it and reaching it by boat.
@@blueberryblues5644 thank you blueberry
Now we need Unit Analysis: Carrier after Mangs showcased them in 2 replay reviews
It's always so impressive how these highly-skilled players move their units, they just dance around the map and always end up in these beautiful, lethal formations. The way Kantbei played around a Superpower as good as Counter Break was extremely hype.
I think a big mistake you made is saying your tanks have enough vision at 4 so you don't need recons... yet at around minute 46:00 you don't have a SINGLE normal tank out. yes you very much need recons if you're not even building normal tanks anymore. a recon or two at the start of the match could've easily survived into the mid-late game and fix your viewrange problem.
Don't just use Sonja to try and fix a unit's weakness a bit, you also need to play to your other unit's strengths.
I just wanted to mention that the vision stat provides quadratic value, a 4 vision unit let you see 40 tiles, a 5 vision unit 60 tiles so a regular recon gives 50% more vision than a sonia tank and a sonia recon with 6 vision let you see 84 tiles so it still gives twice more vision than a sonia tank
The whole situation is like making a cube 2x as larger, since it has to expand in more direction it has to become bigger in all directions.
You get way more than 4+1=25% gain as you noted.
33:35
Counter Break first strikes on defense are actually considered attacks, not counterattacks. So her passive +50% damage bonus doesn't apply.
The damage calculator doesn't take the first strike into account so you do need to set her to the attacker position to calculate correctly as you did.
That's very interesting, thanks for pointing that out!
It’s really interesting how players are making cool maps like this. I wonder what their thought process is when designing. Did they take into account Drake’s extra movement and built the airport exactly that distance?
Map maker here, and yes. We do that
@@ilese6454 That's awesome, dude. I personally think designer are incredibly underrated. Keep up the good job :)
Me too im a map maker and i think about these things. usually my ports are 8 spaces away from shoals so only sensei, drake and sami reach said island in 1 turn with black boats. sometimes i add reefs to use less spaces but more movement cost. sometimes i also make sturm much more broken by adding rivers and mountains in a way only him can reach a building further w infantry.
In case you weren't aware. If memory serves the way that transports function on AWBW is intentionally left the way it is as a portion of the community enjoys the added depth and utility it provides. So it's unlikely it will ever be changed.
Hmm. Maybe I'm a purist, but I strongly disagree with this. I think AWBW's goal should be to make the gameplay as similar to the real thing as possible. If they want, they can include an alternate mode where changes are applied for the sake of a better game.
There are 2 problems internally, you have to track whether or not it was was loaded/unloaded, also track trapped as a separate status. Honestly i d rather see a complete rewrite of the system before tagging on even more attributes.
To give some sense, a starting turn with only building units, in a replay is around 14kb worth of ascii characters. (without any actions, like the order in which they were built)
@@Mangs1337 it also doesnt have the fuel consuming scouting system (which is super janky in a pvp setting).
I'm unsure about how I still feel about the whole mechanic, but I will say; I'm a big fan of it in terms of getting trapped.
It's like a quick evac as the APC is driving, or parachuting out before arriving. Just makes logical sense to me.
how does it function?
Kantbei is one of the strongest players and very knowledgeable about the game. He offered me some feedback on a map I'm designing.
You should try out Tag battles at some point. The HF meta might not be well-known, but the Tag meta literally doesn't exist. I played with Kantbei to figure it out a while back but got sidetracked by IRL stuff and never continued.
Kantbei got a video, nice. Hes a good player, I've had some good games vs him.
I don't have much to add to this video, to be fair I have never played a high funds fog game before, might try it out someday, but I will say that Jake is a pretty good co in high funds because his superpower is insanely strong so I think this matchup is pretty even, despite how Sonja really likes fog obviously
You are my favorite reoccurring character on this channel.
Mangs:"I've learned a lot from this match"
Am i the only one thinking that he will do the same mistakes again? :P
Roads have another advantage over shoals: nobody cares about why the chicken crossed the shoal.
39:12 NaN stands for "not a number", and it marks some kinds of invalid calculation (dividing 0 by 0, the square root of a negative number (in most programming languages' built-in arithmetic; if you're working with complex numbers, you'd grab a library that supports them), or any arithmetic involving NaN). The more you know!
nani?!
That's rather interesting, but... Shouldn't it just be "x"? Sonja is unit value *is* a number, it's just an unknown one.
(obviously, you're not the one who decided this (unless you're one of the people working on AWBW), I'm just asking)
@@auroragamer1 That's a great question, and probably something I should have touched on in my original comment! I'm not associated with AWBW at all (I have an account that I've used, like... once), but I don't think it was "decided" at all - I think it's a bug. If you want to know more, read on!
Here's my guess as to what happens. To show the value score for a player, the replay needs to calculate the value of each of that player's units. To calculate the value of a unit, it takes the price for its type (so 1000 for an infantry), multiplies by the unit's HP and divided by 10. The replay does that for each unit, adds them together, and puts that in the value display. With me so far?
Now, we know the replay doesn't have access to Sonja's troops' HP when it's not her turn. AWBW is a web application, so it probably uses Javascript's "undefined" constant as a placeholder. "undefined", critically, behaves like NaN when it's used as a number, meaning any arithmetic involving it comes out as NaN. So, if it tries to calculate the value of an 8 HP Andy infantry, it does 1000 * 8 / 10. and gets 800. If it tries the same calculation for a Sonja infantry, it does 1000 * undefined / 10, and gets NaN. Then, all those NaNs get added together, yielding NaN, and that gets shown in the display.
So, why hasn't this bug been fixed? Again, I can only speculate, but my guess is that it's just not a high priority. On the one hand, all it does is cause the value display to look weird when watching a replay involving one specific CO. On the other hand, it's a side-effect of another bug - the replay should absolutely have Sonja's HP total, and the only reason we see this weird behavior is that it doesn't.
Does that make sense?
@@naomicoffman1315 it does, to me at least. That's some impressive knowledge as well, thank you for the reply
@@auroragamer1 Any time, and thank you! I honestly love talking about this stuff. (Feel free to shoot me a message if you're curious about anything else!)
Just to clarify, it's not a tournament but an unnofficial league setting, and it's a pretty cool concept.
Hello, Lustymon 👀
HFOG is an interesting format. Without knowing the major meta differences (spam recons, protect infantry more, etc.), I think you did splendidly. Kantbei is a great player as you mentioned and your play was good enough to last until day 25! I enjoyed the commentary. You identified every major weakness in your strategy and anyone who watches this commentary will be much better prepared for an HFOG game.
Local Egg baffled by the concept of "Not A Number"
Q: What If Sonja Was Incredibly Rich?
A: She loses all the cool she used to be
and becomes those newbies Colin who keep throwing money away recklessly ._.
Despite no longer playing this game since mid-school, I'm still enjoying these replay commentaries tho
I said it on another video I think, but the way to think about Neotanks is you're not paying for firepower but for mobility: while they are a bit stronger than Medium Tanks, their big draw is they're basically a Medium Tank that moves like a regular tank. If you treat them almost like Battle Copters, like rogues that you move in, hit an attack, then pull back to move elsewhere, stopping on a city along the way to resupply and repair the scratch damage, they can be utterly devastating since pretty much the only thing that can catch them is another Neotank.
Not a shame to lose vs Kantbei. He is a formidable opponent.
Sees Kantbei
"IM playing with that guy"
They did not Code it that way... its a Bug made a feature the Transport bug. And no they have 0 intention of fixing it. I reported it a few times and got that answer
Vision control is kind of an underrated aspect of fog warfare because it puts more pressure on being able to finish off weakened units and make sure you have units with good vision dispersed in your army. Even more so in HF I guess because most expensive tech units (eg. Neotanks, Bombers) don’t have good vision at all and you don’t have a proportional amount of bases for infantry spam as much as standard.
On your point on Recons: they are force multipliers. they can and should take 'safe' engagements vs infantry that have no support. Think of it this way: if a recon helps you get 2 first strikes with 2 tanks because of its vision it would have already paid for itself without engaging anything. In high funds if it allows a bomber a freeshot onto a neo tank that's unguarded the recon would have paid of 4-5 times already. And it helps out in other engagements as well.
Thank to you, I see the recon in a new light
I think the other video idea “What if Sonja was incredibly poor” might not have been as interesting
I'm just happy to see your colors sorted by nation correctly finally.
For the beginning infantry divergence I think it is actually better to skip past due to being able to cap the further property at least 2 whole days sooner. Because you ended having to cap with the back infantry of the two heading in that direction whereas your opponent captured the far property with his further forward unit. 10:00
NaN means "not a number" I believe. No idea what bizarre calculation could have led to that. Andy math most likely 🤣
Typically get a NaN by trying to divide by zero. Apparently this replay system is missing some sanity checks.
Oh my lord, Orange Star CO in Orange Star regs and the same for Yellow Comet? This is where it's at!
Mangs, could you please start showcasing pro games? Possibly finals of high level/prestigious tournaments and such. Then we can all learn more about higher level concepts such as deathballs. Would be amazing! 😃
Counterbreak sound amazing in paper, but i think i failed to realize that Vantage wasn't a game winner in FE and so isn't counterbreak, for example, yes, sure, that little samurai has vantage, but he strikes for 2 points of dmg, and gets destroyed by the General.
Carrier is becoming mangs special move
good match, always fun to see long matches as its more tense and exciting
I love this guy. I mean, it's the perfect content between fun and strategy
Definitely my favourite series of yours Mangs. I've been playing Advance Wars by Web a lot lately but I lose more battles than I win (although I'm getting better: I lost my first 5 matches so was on 0 - 5 - 0 which was depressing but now it's 12 - 15 - 0 so not as bad...).
I would always like to see more Sonja matches. Keep it up, Mangs! :)
*SONJA STONKS*
i may be wrong, but a carrier may be a good unit for this format. With its huge range it can lock down a big area from enemy air units and for the enemy its hard to get to the carrier with air units to shoot it down. He would first need to know the safezone, so he can position his bombers and then next round take it out (if he spottet it). It may not be cost effective, but enough to confuse the other player
Khantbei has helped me so much over i the AWBW discord. Great guy!
I think that thumbnail is the one single thing i didn't want to see in my life the most
@39:20 (and change) - **Mangs was today-years-old when he first saw the read-out 'Not a Number'**
congrats on 100k!!!
The reason you don't see sonjas hp on enemies turn. Is because the replay saves the actions exactly how they were sent to you during that turn. Also they would have to create an extra feature, for when the game is over, to enable that, as the replay shouldn't be able to show you sonjas hp whilst the game is ongoing. Also hp on actions is only saved as a whole number (1-10) instead of the fraction that gets used otherwise (using 1-100 would be better to in my opinion)
Great AWBW video!
Very insightful and interesting replay. Definitely learned something here!
kantbei, hah, love that name
I actually played with this guy before. I didn't know he was one of the best players on AWBW.
@@AndrewChumKaser Same. He ended my 14 win streak in the fog of war league. The guy is pretty incredible.
Go get the plates, cause you just got served. Yo.
Drip Sonja is real, and my therapist will be hearing about this.
Me reading the title: "Wouldn't that just make her a better Colin?" lol.
Suggest you add the drinking softdrink posture at the start of every video - found watching it satisfying
I don't know why but mangs never used to build recon units even in FOW matches. Recon units is a must on all FOW regardless of Co. Atleast now mangs realises it on how powerful recons are
He kinda overrated Sonia d2d power, and thus underrestimate Sonia's recon
In his vid Lash(him) vs Sonia, he built a lot of recon
12:19 I really hope this gets fixed, otherwise it’ll be funny to see folks who’ll try it on the remaster once it comes out
Kinda surprised that mangs resisted the urge to build a carrier
But I did build one....
My gut instinct is that Sonja has a small advantage in this matchup. It's so annoying to attack into a counter break. It can almost feel like you're against Sasha and she's just canceled your SCOP for an extra turn because you often don't want to do anything on that turn. Then when you finally pop your power, Sonja's SCOP period is over and your counterattack charges her up once again. Extra sight will of course be a nice bonus as well. But on the other hand, Kantbei seems like he knows what's doing, and you shouldn't fuck with someone who signs all of their comments.
NaN means not a number, which is sometimes a value you get in computer science when doing certain divisions, so basically just another replay bug.
Those two mechs did kill a 5hp tank, did something like 13 damage to some recons, threatened a city capture and forced another recon to reveal itself, so not that bad. Considering what you could have built at that time, I don't think infantry or recons could have matched that. And this mech is still full HP, so who knows what great deeds he will go on to accomplish other than probably getting 1shot by a bomber. I don't know if they were that big a mistake. Not enough vision and units just kind of being in the wrong region of the map maybe was a bigger factor.
"How am I going to punch through this ball of units" Enable my second favorite unit, that's right, Meme Bombs.
Finding I don't have much to say that wans't already said in this video on this one also I don't even know what's going on. Also it's hard to comment about fog in general because maybe some of these decisions made more sense during the actual match.
This was always going to be a tough battle because of being very unfamiliar with the format. If people have a really good idea of what's happening behind the fog in high funds, I'm not one of them.
Random thought: Pure theory here but maybe there's some synergy with Sonja and stealths because of the absurd number of Sonja SCOPs that come out? I'm trying to think of what's the most versatile unit for counter break, and maybe it's the stealth. As the game went on it got easier and easier to avoid the true danger of counter break because the board just reached the point where he had hard counters available in every quarter. There's no good way to directly hit stealths though with counter break active, and I doubt he's going to build missiles just for that, and I'm not even considering the actual ability to turn stealth. The downside is you only have one airport, so you're giving up some bombers to build them.
Stealth Fighters are pretty much always banned in every High Funds match, including fog ones.
Stealths are banned in the format. In high fund games, there's a big danger of just spamming stealths and if both players do that you just get a stalemate since whoever attacks a stealth wall first loses. My own theory craft on Sonja is actually bombers are her killer unit. They force out fighter responses on her scop, but if you're building fighters you're not building bombers to counter the neos, preserving the effectiveness of Neos during scop. This is why I think on one airport maps sonja is quite good (since you're limited by builds, whereas in two airport maps sonja seems significantly worse) and why I spent a lot of early resources building bombers or fighters each turn -Kantbei
Play a match as Eagle. Lightning strike is super fun
I think the mods or someone in charge of AWBW said that they aren't going to fix the STUPID transport bug because it has become part of the metagame already...
It's really disappointing.
Day 19 seemed to be the decisive day for Kantbei.
The only time I build mechs on counterbreaker is when I plan to use counterbreak to cap an important building. So it is really good cause they gotta shoot after being blasted by mechs.
Virgin credit card/rich boy collin ( this guy has a furfrou with expensive haircuts)
Vs
Chad hard working and business girl sonja (this girl knows how the Market works)
Hello Mangs :D really nice game but 39:08 (for those who don't know) "NaN" stands for "Not a Number" ^^ common when value cannot be displayed due to incorrect data type :D
Thank you!
Just a matter of time before someone creates Carrier-chan for Mangs.
I love the opponent's name so much.
51:38 “it would need to shoot down a bomber and then a trans” BASED
Hey mangs loved the video!
I was wondering if you could maybe play a game with grit at some point.
Black boatch, airportch, notch, outch, damagech, itch
Another good Sonja thumbnail.
12:33 its in dual strike i just try it (edit:it even works in advance war 1-2)
"NaN" is short for "Not a Number" and is usually displayed when code is asking for a number to be shown, but something went wrong with the math and the variable got changed to something that the code no longer interprets as being a number.
Generally this means you broke something when writing the code, but sometimes it just becomes an error state when it can't find the numbers its trying to even perform math on in the first place.
Are there any predeployed or predeployed versus base maps (survival mission) on AWBW?
Yeah but not for competitive play
Egg
Egg
Egg
Egg
eGG
egg
1:28 Am actually pretty curious what's going on with the shifts in co tier here.
Like Sonja needing fog of war is pretty obvious, but what's going on with high funds shifting Flak&Jugger up? Why does HF knock Grit to the bottom? Why does HF bring down Kanbei&Javier?
You could honestly make a whole video on this.
It would have been interesting to see how much the game would have changed if the egg got that com tower. He would have had it as well had he not moved his tank forward by 1. Had he kept that infantry fully defended rather than going for the trap, he probably could have won the game just from the advantage that would have given. It's not like there were any infantry nearby to retake it. He could have held it pretty easily for quite some time.
From my analysis, honestly doesn't change that much. There are very few engagements where I didn't just have overwhelming numbers to wipe out units in an area and most of my big attacks were on scop turns that have guaranteed KOs even at 0 towers. He might have ended up keeping a few weaker units alive with like 1-2 hp but its not as if I was running out of units to attack with in most engagements so their effectiveness in a wall likely wouldn't have mattered
@@Kantbei While it's true on your side that it wouldn't change the engagements you'd take, it's hard to say as it would alter the engagements Mangs could have taken. It feels like it's one of those ones that could have lead to a snowball scenario that's hard to predict where it would lead.
But, it didn't happen, and you played extremely well throughout. Congrats on your win.
I would pick jake over sonja any day of the week, assuming the map isn't some weird gimmick thing
Mangs, have you ever thought to build lander to carry slow but powerful vehicle like medium tank or wheel units like recon or rocket to front?
Perhaps it would have been less noticeable that you weren't building Recons if you had at least been building other high vision units like regular tanks, but you did seem to get sidetracked into building high attack units with minimal vision here
9:05 The math evens out in the end, but passing over the property is better. Let me explain.
Strategy A. If capturing immediately, the first Infantry would capture the first property on Days 4 and 5, and the second Infantry would capture the second property on Days 6 and 7.
Strategy B. If passing over the first property, you'd capture both the first and second properties on Days 5 and 6 using the second and first Infantry units respectively.
By using Strategy A, you'd get those 2000 funds on Day 6, but your second Infantry would need to keep capturing on Day 7.
By using Strategy B, you must wait until Day 7 to get that 2000 (plus the other 2000 to catch up), but both your Infantry will be able to move. This is often the superior strategy this early in the game when you're really only building Infantry.
It's amazing how different opening strategies don't really matter when it comes to income advantages, but instead lead to positioning advantages.
I would love to see a map with lots of pipes to make pipe runners viable.
If you want to fight a lower ranked FOW player Mangs just call me, i'm like at 900 points with like 21 ranked match.
Sonja was able to make the yellow comet economy great again
How did Sonja get that money?
... She murdered Sasha and Colin, didn't she?
The Death of Colin (Featuring Sasha, as the other dead)
Sonja, ironically also facing the same fate as Beria: "THIS IS A TRAVESTY, I JUDGE YOU!!!"
I think the first strike advantage was just perfect in AW2 and DS's comm towers ruined that.
Would you elaborate?
@@sebastianlucas704 The com towers give units increased firepower. Not only does it mean that both sides wrestle around for control for properties to avoid a firepower disparity, it also means that even with parity units die a lot faster and have less chance to counterattack. Some interactions that take place result in kills. For example in AW2, if I attack a Mech on a city with an Infantry and a Tank, the infantry gets mauled on the counterattack, the tank takes little or damage, and the Mech is Barely hanging on. Mechs can be used to block difficult terrain better than infantry can. In AWBW, if both sides have a tower, the Mech actually dies unless both attacking units derp on their luck roll. The first strike advantage becomes exaggerated and I don't like this.
45 minutes in you're lamenting your lack of recons. I got into an argument a while ago about whether or not Sonja's recons are worth it or not. I was on the side of "Very worth it, very powerful", the other side said "Nah, your light tanks are more useful and almost as good as normal recons"
Suffice it to say, I feel vindicated on saying Sonja recons are worth building and really powerful, as you experienced first hand.
i'm pretty sure you can load and unload on the same turn in AW2
not sure if you can do that in AW1 but i remember using that load and unload trick on AW2. (but only if the transport didn't already move and/or unload)
16:05 Koal...? Oh! You mean Shitty Adder!
She is a princess so i guess she is already rich
Hey mangs if you haven't done so already, a good idea for a video could be a guide to map selection on awbw: ei. what the settings and map types mean for ppl new to the site.
A good match but you simply got outplayed. he had an answer for every push , picked his targets well and retreated when needed. leaving counter break as ineffective as possible. Fog and high income is an interesting mode to play in
Is it noticeable that kantbei played his units in 3’s? i notice later on almost every unit he played 3 of them, so even when you took out the first fighter or bomber, there were usually 2 more nearby, and when he played recons, there were at least 3…
I also see he never moved a unit without troop support, so he was always ready to capture any territory he walked over.
"What If Sonja Was Incredibly Rich?"
So rich that she produces so much money in terms of units that the game says "fuck this" and prints "Not-a-Number" in her unit value.
Okay, so I thought it was a bug but it's just a feature of Sonja since she hides her unit HP from opponents so she would hide unit value as well. The reason I thought it was a bug was because NaN usually represents an error where a number calculated is so absurd that the program just simply says "wait, that's illegal." If anything, it should read "N/A" or "Not Available" instead.
"NaN" Not a Number mangs. usually crops up when doing 0/0 math etc. In this case seems to be like a N/A though.
Mangs`s army value be like: Indian Bread
I like doing the death ball with grit, not a super fast or aggressive play type tho 😂
Up!
38:35 I'm not even a pro and I do this strategy in FE and AW.
how do you have music playing? is that edited in or is there option on the site i cant find?
It is edited in for ambience
„I play Kanbei haha"
I’m pretty sure you can do that in the base game. If an APC hasn’t moved, you can load an Infantry, move the APC, then unload. That isn’t a AWBW bug, right? The loading and unloading 3 Infantry however, is, a bug.
If I remember correctly you can do it no matter what state the transport is in, waited or unwaited
can the black boat (in AWDS) unload multiple infantry normally? or is it only suppose to unload 1 at a time?
because you can do the load and unload trick with any transport. whether it be an APC or a lander.
@@sauvereaper6981 you can unload multiplte units from transports if there's enough space for them and if they're both inside during the unloading
@@HexxyHazel thanks man, i never played AWDS so i didn't know if blackboats worked differently.
@@sauvereaper6981 no problem, I believe every transport works the exact same besides movement type, amount they can carry and their separate functions like black boats repairing and such.
AW discord players: death balls are so stupid!
DoR discord players: first time?
Why did nobody build any indirects this match? Is it because Sonya can see through forests making them super vulnerable or is the map just too open?
This map is not great for in-directs. It is so incredibly open. Sure, there are forests to hide in, but you really need more choke-points and mountains for in-directs to be effective. If I built any rockets or artillery, they would just have been gunned down by neotanks.
My opponent probably didn't build any cause I'm Sonja.
@@Mangs1337 Actually didn't build them for the same reason you didn't. Maps incredibly open. HF and HFog also make wall breaks really easy (because how do you wall vs a bomber that 1hkos on most terrains vs most units?). Also the whole "they're not very mobile" issue. Against Sonja in a normal fog map I would normally build quite a few indirects as they're the easiest answer to Sonja's SCOP. - Kantbei