Never really considered the channel "family friendly" and some topics discussed wouldn't always be appropriate to younger viewers. I love this channel personally, though. I have been watching for years now.
I mean, the me who first discovered your channel is what I would call child age and I loved those theory videos. I'd say that the writing videos aren't family friendly, but a lot of other stuff is
Their relationship was wonderful over the trilogy but that one moment truly cemented just how close they actually were. No matter what Frodo did to Sam, Sam loves him and he is going to make sure that Frodo is succeeding
I feel like one massive video on dark and sensitive topics (not just mental illness, more like morality, abuse, cruelty, trauma and the like) and how to write them respectfully and intergrate them into your worldbuilding and characters would be so so wonderful and worthwhile to see
@@ashtonpeterson4618 Yes! Its one of my favorite videos of all time, its so thoughtful and well done. I'd love to see more videos concerning such topics
@@heywhat6676 I'm not sure if you like Avatar the Last Airbender show or not but you'd probably like his video analyzing Azula then. Mental health stuff
@@privateemail9755 One of them's a detritivore, the other is an herbivore. And if words are made up, then I guess you wouldn't mind a Jabberwock showing up on your door and flagellating you with its' tail at your request.
0:25 'The last piece of cake has been eaten, and the cake was a lie anyway.' Dude, you never fail to crack me up while simultaneously remain educational. This is just brilliant.
"Do you have families? Are you friendly?" No, because I'am the protagonist of this universe. My family was killed by the Dark Lord, I was betrayed by those I called friends and all feelings of responsibility to give back to the world have been lost to me. I am no longer friendly. This... this is my darkest hour.
Tired: iT's NoT a GrAsShOpPeR iT's A cOcKrOaCh Wired: Calling it a grasshopper got lots of people to comment, very clever Inspired: *It's a cockroach named "Grasshopper" because Wall-E doesn't have enough context about human culture and language to understand the difference*
“It’s like in the old stories, Mr. Frodo, the ones that really mattered. Full of darkness and danger they were. Sometimes you didn’t want to know the end, because how could the end be happy? How could the world go back to the way it was when so much bad had happened?” … “There’s some good in this world, Mr. Frodo, and it’s worth fighting for!”
Oh god, I simply HATE stories where mental illness is magically healed by the main character finally getting together with their love interest 🙄🙄 MI isn‘t a switch that can be flipped on and off, yet some writers still think it is :/ Great video! Thanks :)
One of my favourite things about The Stromlight Archive is just this - one of the main characters suffers from depression, and he is in a constant struggle with it throughout the books. He has darkest hours that end with him making good choices and steps on the road to get better, but it's a never ending road - he relapses when tragedy strikes, and he isn't perfectly mentally well in his best moments. He just wakes up every day and chooses to keep going. His average state is slowly getting better, but I don't think he'll even "fully recover". Some people find it very taxing to read but I find it very relatable and cathartic
Hey just wanted to let you know I really really appreciate your videos. I may not be a writer but i am making a world as a little passion project, and graham the wizard who likes cats many various journeys have been incredibly helpful! Thank you so much! I can’t wait to pick up on writing and world building 2. All praise Momo
The symmetry in that wall-e scene goes further, as Eve at the beginning is robot-like and the flip of that is heart wrenching. Just compounds the emotion of losing the character that has had such impact on the rest of the cast
To me the version of the mental illness darkest hour is this. It’s not when they decide not to kill themselves but later one when they are trying to get better and they have to choose the hard way to get better instead of relapsing. It’s on the journey up but at the moment when they can either choose to let themselves fall back deeper into depression or do the hard personal work to reach out for help that is required for them to get better
I really appreciate the final point of how mental illness doesn't just "go away" after winning through the darkest hour. I'd add that if you want to end a story of mental illness with a character truly putting everything behind them to live happily ever after, the darkest hour is not them in their worst state, but rather them looking back at that state and falsely believing how a return to it would solve all their problems. Then the victory becomes the resolve to never go back
I think Sanderson made a great use of a darkest hour for a character with a mental illness in The Rhythm of War, that if done poorly could look like the thing you said shouldn't be done -emerging from a suicide attempt into a glorious climactic victory. But I think the key to make it right were a couple of things. Firstly, the depressed state that drove the character to try to end their life was not just the result of a bad thing that had just happened, but something that had been established throughout the whole book, and even in the previous ones. And second, even though there is a moment of emerging victorious right after, once the climax has passed it is left VERY clear that the character is not out of the woods, and that the progress they made is only the first step on a long road to recovery. So it doesn't become a magical solution that made depression go away instantly. Anyways, Brandon is awesome, so it's not surprising he was able to pull off such an impactful arc =)
Another huge moment of darkest hour, Dalinar in OB. He is destroyed by the knowledge of his past and that's not really resolved when he goes out to the battlefield, he's just pushing on. Its at that climactic confrontation that his arc really comes to a head
Also - another reason Kal works is he doesn't just get power of friendship. There's a profound reveal and discussion with a lost connection that is believable as temporarily adjusting his mindstate.
@@DandDgamer and it affects though closest to him, specifically Syl, negatively when he can't deal with it, which is sad, but realistic. Living with someone struggling with Mental Illness is hard, and it's just a detail I liked.
Darkest hours are probably my favorite parts of stories, and I think whether or not they can pull it off successfully is a true test of an author's skill. Everything that the characters were built up to by all of the pages before lead up to how they handle their darkest hours.
Honestly, I never thought that the time on the lion turtle was Aang's darkest hour, as he was doing all he could to sticking to his morals. I think, his darkest hour was in the first episode of season three where he seemed not even to realize that he was about to toss his morals out of the window, where he was not pondering over sticking to his morals, but already made a decision to act.
Oh, wait, Tim! I've asked before, but do you think you'll ever do a video on introducing new characters? (to an established cast). I know that Toph is probably the gold example, but I think Stranger Things does a pretty good job of it as well.
Great video. My one disagreement is with the idea that Batman's Character Failure in the darkest hour of the Dark Knight is realizing that he will have to compromise his ethics. The intrusive surveillance gimmick doesn't conflict with his code in the slightest; as he explicitly states to the Joker, he has ONE rule. His Character Failure is that when given the choice between a character who represents the one chance for his own personal happiness and a character who represents the one chance for Gotham's salvation, he chooses "selfishly" to save Rachel (that the Joker lied about which was which is an extra kick in the teeth that adds to his Plot Failure). Bruce's conflict is whether he can be both a man and a symbol, and this darkest hour causes him to abandon any hope of a life for Bruce Wayne and commit 100% to his mission as Batman. This also functions as the darkest hour for the trilogy as a whole, which is not resolved until he reintegrates his personas and finds happiness as Bruce at the end of Dark Knight Rises.
The Joker technically never lied. He openly tells Batman that he will have to kill either one of them, and that "the act of killing is about making a choice", but Batman misreads the Joker and doesn't listen to his words. Joker gave batman the choice to kill Racheal or Harvey and Batman chooses Racheal. I've watched The Dark Knight 5 times now, and only just picked that up.
@@noah8916 Nice catch that Joker toys with him by obliquely hinting at the game he's playing, but I'm sorry, he very explicitly lies. "He's at 250 52nd Street. And she's at Avenue X at Cicero." That's a lie.
Froddo does pass his darkest hour, but afterwards you can feel that mentally he'll never be the same. He's permanently traumatised and can't return to the perfect life he had before. Him leaving for the Undying Lands gives you hope that he's on the road to reaching his happy ending
As a reader I find my most common problem with darkest hours is when they finish too quickly or thoroughly. Consider drawing them out, or only resolving them as much as is required to get your characters back in the story. Particularly if you have a series then you can have a lot of things be broken in character at once, and you can resolve them one by one, as needed for various climaxes, without needing to break more stuff every time. Or you can even show that the things that readers thought were fixed maybe weren't as stable as they once believed.
The character not resolving it but having axioms that allow them to continue anyway can work. The character values life as an axiom or freewill as an axiom, the antagonist maybe brings up the fallout to the characters actions or some hypocrisy or paradox with the protagonists actions or world view, darkest hour, protagonist doesn't resolve the internal problem but chooses to continue as he puts his problems in the back burner. Like a damaged flawed protagonist I guess.
I recently had a big thought about the "Good Story Problem" and life not having these kinds of climax and darkest hours. great to see content about it.
There's a lot of darkest hours there just aren't as many resolutions. In stories there will be some big redemption but in the real world redemption isn't one big act that saves humanity, it's small acts over years and years as you become the person you wanted to be. Getting your shit together, volunteering, taking time to reflect on yourself, who you are, who you want to be, accepting yourself for who you are today while acknowledging it can be better and taking steps to make it happen. Learning to love yourself while being able to be critical of yourself too.
The Tenth Doctor’s character arc across season 4 and into the special episodes (especially The Waters of Mars) is one of my favourite character arcs written.
Thanks for always saying something to the effect of "Don't be rigid with your structure. Use these as guidelines to make your story the best it can be." I get so sick of people saying even that story has to follow the 3 act structure. It's just a useful tool. Great vid!
I know Tim always jokes about Australia being a mythical land that doesn't exist but he's officially convinced me today when he referred to a cockroach as a grasshopper.
I think one of my all time favorite darkest hours was in Words of Radiance. Those who have read Stormlight know what I’m talking about. But I don’t want to spoil anything for those that haven’t.
Kaladin is the person the archetypal protagonist wishes they were. Really, Stormlight is just great for darkest hours, great and small and across multiple character arcs.
The Way of Kings has a very interesting take on the Darkest Hour and story structure. We the audience see it where you'd expect to, right before the climax of the story. For Kaladin though, it happens between chapters 1 and 2, and he spends the rest of the book dealing with it.
more like the rest of the series, but I see your point. I’d argue that that is just his default, and his darkest hours are more like just darker hours. For example, Kaladins darker hour in book one is when he loses Syl, and his climax is when he chooses to defend Elkohar despite hating the guy and realistically having no chance. (At this point he has lost his powers, have a broken leg and is facing two full shardbearers)
I’d argue the true darkest hour is losing Tien, he spends the first book dealing with it, his ‘Tiens’ getting massacred is just the climax of the darkest hour.
I really, _really_ like point 3, that not every story "needs" a Darkest Hour. People put this trope up on a pedestal as THE ONLY WAY (tm) to write ANY story, but that is just not true. You shouldn't _necessarily_ write any story according to a single formula (Darkest Hours / Hero's Journey included), storycrafting is *art more than science.*
This might be my favorite video from this channel. It made me start thinking about my own writing, and how so much of the darkest hour can be built up before it happens, which can fill a book with more important content! This is literally why I love this channel. I learn so much every video.
8:30 That's actually a cockroach. It's a great thematic companion for Wall-E, since it's the only kind of creature that can survive on this hellscape we've created for ourselves
I’ve just been reading Stephen Fry’s “Troy” (I really recommend it!), and he mentions “aristeia” a couple times, which is the opposite of the darkest hour: the finest hour, the time to shine, the moment in time for which you were born, the culmination of your destiny. Now, hearing this great explanation and break-down of the darkest hour, I think I see why the Iliad can run on for so long: it’s because there are several plot-related and character-related dark hours, and the story combines one character’s darkest hour with another character’s finest hour. Not only that, but in the Iliad, the two sides have their separate finest hours: one army’s advance must be the other’s retreat, so this old epic mastered the use of these two techniques wonderfully. It might be worthwhile to have a video on this antipode though, the finest hour, to see how it’s been integrated in modern literature.
The problem with AoU, is that there are like seven arcs moving at different speeds. If you took each arc individually it would be more clear. Like if it was a crossover series of comics, with each characters story told in their own book. It's unfortunate that it all kind of gets muddied together.
Good vid. My wife and I are currently rewatching Angel (one of my favourite shows) and we recently watched Reprise, which is a perfect “Darkest hour” episode, and a culmination of the arc throughout season 2 so far. And the consequences carry on through the rest of the season and into the next.
Infinity War is definitely my favorite MCU movie. These darkest hour moments in the franchise often feel less satisfying because they just get brushed over so quickly. Having this massive world ending threat looming over the characters for years at that point, everyone truly giving their best effort to win this fight, then loose anyway and letting them (and the audience) sit with this failure for a long time was a brilliant move. Also, I was so happy for the shoutout to Beartown, one of my favorite books I read last year. It juggled multiple heavy topics with respect and even though it has sequels now, if you read it as a standalone it has the perfect balance of closing character arcs but still feeling open-ended enough to give it just an extra sprinkle of realism. I usually hate these '10 years from now' type of sequences, but there's one instance when Backman pulled it off. He talks about the three best players of the new team stepping out to the rink together and mentions '10 years from now, one of them is going to be pro, the other a family man back home, the third one dead.' (Not a direct quote, I haven't read the book in English.) I have my guess to which one refers to which boy, but it honestly could go almost either way and that's just makes it so much more intrigueing.
About the Tenth Doctor's darkest hour in The Waters of Mars: I'd seen that episode before I watched David Tennant's run all the way through, but when I got to that point I was screaming "NO DOCTOR, NO!"
Funny thing about Infinity War is that it kind of depends in which perspective you’re viewing the story from. It’s true that from the Avengers’ perspective it’s the middle of the darkest hour but when you look at the story from Thanos’s perspective he has actually completed his full arc by that point, his darkest hour in my opinion being when he sacrifices Gamora
the one version of this trope i am an absolute sucker for, that will rip out my heartstrings every time, is the "you're not alone" moment. when the character is at their weakest, ready to give up, and in most cases, either has become isolated, or has pushed their companions away because of their giving up...and yet everyone comes back to help them and bring them back. funny enough, i've noticed this a lot more in video games than other mediums. FF9, undertale, and to a lesser degree, mass effect.
Thank you. You're truly inspiring. I just finished a three-months-hanging chapter because of your impassioned speech about non-canon structures being okay.
The darkest hour can be a turning point when the hero decides to become the villain because they want to protect someone or a circumstance, usually caused by selfishness. Example, Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader.
Oh you bastard you, that's not fair springing "I can carry you!" on me like that. Now I'm sitting here crying over my morning coffee; that's my favourite scene in all of media.
So, surprisingly, Frozen 2 has an amazing darkest hour for Anna. She is literally and figuratively in a dark place and questions who she is without Elsa and whether she can continue on. Probably the best darkest hour in modern Disney princess movies.
Always with perfect timing. These videos always help me in my writing for my many projects. One day I’ll support this channel via patreon but until then good work as always
This came in just in time! I'm in the middle of planning my fantasy story and my main character has a huuuge traumatic setback about the middle of the story. This video is gonna help me structure it better and i thank you good sir!💕💕👏🏽👏🏽
That joke about Brad Pitt's wife was a war crime And you said DOOBLY-DOO I understood that reference. You have excellent taste Final amendment, your channel is suitably family friendly and I like it
Thanks Tim. I've been struggling to get in to writing and having people tell me that there's a structure that you don't necessarily have to follow helps!
I think one of my favorite examples of a darkest hour is in Metal gear rising's dlc for Jetstream sam. During the main story Sam is an antagonist you kill before the final boss, but his dlc paints him as against the same person you were. His "darkest hour" is when he loses. He fails resulting in a loss of his arm and his honor. It doesn't help him ever take down the big baddie, but it makes it all the more satisfying that we did all while reinforcing the danger of this villain.
It is uncanny how suitable this video is for me right now. Just a couple of hours ago I wrote the first draft of a chapter that turned out bad because I had no idea what exactly is its point. I just knew something like that needs to happen. Now I know that must be about the main character's mental troubles beginning to heal. It fits perfectly to what happens in the chapter and the theme of the book.
thank you for mentioning the realities of a road to healing after the darkest hour in mental health rather than everything just being better. I really needed to hear it
I watch this with my kids, we started watching back when they were much younger, so I'd preview before I showed an episode, just in case, but now they're teens, so we can watch for the first time together.
This video came out at the perfect time for me! I've been struggling with the midpoint of my story that should be the lowest point of the whole thing, but I just could not figure out how to make it as such. So this was fantastic, I took a bunch of notes and believe I've got a pretty good idea about the direction from which I can tackle writing this now! The concepts of reaction, dilemma, decision, were particularly helpful, especially since I already had an external force coming in right after to steer the character away from the hate and anger that they were spiralling into, so I think I've got a better idea of how to make it all work together now. Thank you!
I would absolutely love to hear your thoughts on The Green Knight! It has one of my favorite Darkest Hours in film and Dev Patel certainly restores his own honor
It really it cool to me how sincerely you talk about writing and worldbuilding and mental health, and the way you express that is really admirable. I've been working on a variety of writing projects since highschool and your videos have helped me slowly reform my ideas into better works, and as someone autism and Adhd, and is prone to being anxious, it's cool how much you care. Really hope goods things come your way Hellofutureme
I haven't watched your vids in a while. I'll say it straight up I missed your insights, you taught me allot of stuff I know I about writing. Happy to be back.
Thank you so much for touching on the mental health aspect. As someone who's been trying to deal with depression and anxiety (and god-knows what else), seeing movies and shows where depression is 'cured' by some trite is super disheartening and damaging to people struggling. I love that you brought that up and I hope this reaches a lot of authors to help them change that practice
The mental illness bit reminds me of Kiki Kallira Breaks a Kingdom by Sangu Mandanna, a middle-grade fantasy I picked for the Indian mythology, not expecting it to also be one of the best depictions of OCD I've seen. In it, Kiki overcomes her darkest moment not by 'beating' her OCD, but by realizing it's an illness instead of a personal or moral failing. And the person who helps Kiki see this... well, this moment of connection gives a lot more impact to a later scene with that person.
I really love that talking about it is the moment when you realize the character is on the path of healing in your story. I've run out of too many therapy offices to not know how hard that one step is XD And yes, you can bribe me with the adorable Emperor Momo This is an amazing video, thank you so much.
Tim, this is one of your most complex and rewarding videos to me, because of your discussion of how mental illness stories don’t lend themselves to darkest hour and then immediate lightest hour. Thank you for it!
I am so happy I found this channel through your collaboration with Overly Sarcastic Productions. Your media analysis helps put much into words I couldn't quite reach on my own and teaches me more every day about not only how fantastic stories help reach audiences with their use of literary techniques and creative exposition, but also puts into perspective things like mental illness as a trope and how, if handled incorrectly, can harm a community and misrepresent proper identification and care. I am so excited to engage with all of your content!!!!
The fact that you didn't use the movie "Seven" as an example for your point seven, was disappointing. Still, one of the best channels on TH-cam, and a great episode! Thanks Tim!
I've got five kids, two stepkids, and sometimes they watch your videos with me. Two of my girls are into writing, so they are taking notes and love your videos as much as I do. So yeah, mate, you're a family friendly channel. :D
Your work is amazing. I could just listen to you talk for hours on different literary topics and just never get bored. Thank you for creating this content.
I was just thinking, would you say there is a darkest hour in "The Godfather?" If I had to say there is one, I would say it is in the middle of the movie when he decides to kill Sollozzo. Instead of redeeming himself and getting out though, he instead falls deeper and deeper into the family business. I guess that's a feature of tragedy, which wasn't really discussed in the video. Instead of getting redemption from the darkest hour, the protagonist falls deeper and deeper into the dark.
I recently discovered this channel Dude ... I'm in love with your mind. For real. You're so eloquent and smart, you work hard and I can not wait to read your book when it comes out because boy oh boy, it's gonna be good if it comes from that beautiful brain of yours !
I love Rythm of War. Khaladin battles with chronic depression throughout the series and almost everything that can go wrong does for him in Rythm of War, and he is without the friends who have in the past helped hold him together and keep focused and he does attempt to commit suicide. But that turns into a triumph, if only a temporary one, but like those steps taken before, they are steps on the right path.
![On Writing: Subtext (and how to use it)! [ Tarantino | Thrones | Gatsby ]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/58FyvzttlIg/mqdefault.jpg)
![On Writing: Subtext (and how to use it)! [ Tarantino | Thrones | Gatsby ]](/img/tr.png)
![On Writing: Killing Characters! [ Harry Potter | Stephen King | Terabithia ]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/treB4kuyMHk/mqdefault.jpg)
Am I a family channel? AM I? What am I? Who am I?! Boy it sure sounds like I'm in a darkest hour and you can help by linktr.ee/timhickson
You're a. A channel! Certainly. /pos
Never really considered the channel "family friendly" and some topics discussed wouldn't always be appropriate to younger viewers.
I love this channel personally, though. I have been watching for years now.
Would families watch this? Probably not. Would classrooms? Yeah, I think they should!
I mean, the me who first discovered your channel is what I would call child age and I loved those theory videos. I'd say that the writing videos aren't family friendly, but a lot of other stuff is
I neither have a family, nor am I firendly, but i do watch this channel, so i suppose it's not
“I can carry you!” Is possibly one of the most powerful character moments in literary history.
Their relationship was wonderful over the trilogy but that one moment truly cemented just how close they actually were. No matter what Frodo did to Sam, Sam loves him and he is going to make sure that Frodo is succeeding
@@empressfreya9872 it also solidified the image of how strong hearted everyone was and dedicated to finishing the fight.
And movie history as well.
Sam best boy
It makes me cry every time.
"Because Gotham gets only two hours of sunlight a day"
Ouch
Big ouch! I thought Bruce bought them an extra hour last year but apparently they don't last more than a few days.
That made me laugh. I wasn’t expecting that from Tim.
Maybe that’s why there’s so much crime in Gotham. Lack of sunlight making everyone cranky.
I feel like one massive video on dark and sensitive topics (not just mental illness, more like morality, abuse, cruelty, trauma and the like) and how to write them respectfully and intergrate them into your worldbuilding and characters would be so so wonderful and worthwhile to see
He made a video about suicidality in media. Have you watched that? It's good
@@ashtonpeterson4618 Yes! Its one of my favorite videos of all time, its so thoughtful and well done. I'd love to see more videos concerning such topics
@@heywhat6676 I'm not sure if you like Avatar the Last Airbender show or not but you'd probably like his video analyzing Azula then. Mental health stuff
@@ashtonpeterson4618 Thanks for the suggestion, I have seen that one twice already hehe
A video covering martyrdom, accidental, intentional and self harm would be super interesting. Plus haven’t really seen it covered.
"much like Brad Pitts wife, it comes to you in pieces" is a brutal line. Very funny.
Especially now.
To whomever is writing my life: It's called darkest HOUR, not darkest decade, thank you very much
Request a different genre because that sounds like a tragedy not an epic
Hear, hear!
In the wise words of Homer, "The worst day of your life *so far*."
Time is a ham construct, it's still only been an hour, sorry
Rome may have burned in a day but it wasn't built in one ;)
About the pet scene from WALL-E: The logic is still there. It's just that the pet is a cockroach, not a grasshopper.
Words are made up. They are practically the same thing, except grasshoppers puke and poop when you pick them up.
They're both edible, I see no difference.
@@privateemail9755 One of them's a detritivore, the other is an herbivore. And if words are made up, then I guess you wouldn't mind a Jabberwock showing up on your door and flagellating you with its' tail at your request.
@@kennyholmes5196 don't you threaten us all with a good time.
@@ChopTheViking Fun fact: One of those two words is a real word that describes something/some action that exists!
0:25 'The last piece of cake has been eaten, and the cake was a lie anyway.'
Dude, you never fail to crack me up while simultaneously remain educational. This is just brilliant.
"Do you have families? Are you friendly?" No, because I'am the protagonist of this universe. My family was killed by the Dark Lord, I was betrayed by those I called friends and all feelings of responsibility to give back to the world have been lost to me. I am no longer friendly. This... this is my darkest hour.
Do you need a hug?
@@autisticdancer Haha
@@autisticdancer
Yes.
I always keep this line from Legend of Korra in the back of my mind: "When we hit our lowest point, we are open to the greatest change."
Tired: iT's NoT a GrAsShOpPeR iT's A cOcKrOaCh
Wired: Calling it a grasshopper got lots of people to comment, very clever
Inspired: *It's a cockroach named "Grasshopper" because Wall-E doesn't have enough context about human culture and language to understand the difference*
That.... that is smart
So glad you mentioned that Doctor Who episode. It's absolutely iconic and David Tennant's acting is just *chef's kiss*
Tennant is pretty great in most of his episodes.
“It’s like in the old stories, Mr. Frodo, the ones that really mattered. Full of darkness and danger they were. Sometimes you didn’t want to know the end, because how could the end be happy? How could the world go back to the way it was when so much bad had happened?” …
“There’s some good in this world, Mr. Frodo, and it’s worth fighting for!”
Oh god, I simply HATE stories where mental illness is magically healed by the main character finally getting together with their love interest 🙄🙄 MI isn‘t a switch that can be flipped on and off, yet some writers still think it is :/
Great video! Thanks :)
One of my favourite things about The Stromlight Archive is just this - one of the main characters suffers from depression, and he is in a constant struggle with it throughout the books. He has darkest hours that end with him making good choices and steps on the road to get better, but it's a never ending road - he relapses when tragedy strikes, and he isn't perfectly mentally well in his best moments. He just wakes up every day and chooses to keep going. His average state is slowly getting better, but I don't think he'll even "fully recover". Some people find it very taxing to read but I find it very relatable and cathartic
Hey just wanted to let you know I really really appreciate your videos. I may not be a writer but i am making a world as a little passion project, and graham the wizard who likes cats many various journeys have been incredibly helpful! Thank you so much! I can’t wait to pick up on writing and world building 2. All praise Momo
The symmetry in that wall-e scene goes further, as Eve at the beginning is robot-like and the flip of that is heart wrenching. Just compounds the emotion of losing the character that has had such impact on the rest of the cast
To me the version of the mental illness darkest hour is this. It’s not when they decide not to kill themselves but later one when they are trying to get better and they have to choose the hard way to get better instead of relapsing. It’s on the journey up but at the moment when they can either choose to let themselves fall back deeper into depression or do the hard personal work to reach out for help that is required for them to get better
Kaladin's arc in the Stormlight Archive is a brilliant example of how to do darkest hours within the context of depression/suicidality/mental illness.
I really appreciate the final point of how mental illness doesn't just "go away" after winning through the darkest hour. I'd add that if you want to end a story of mental illness with a character truly putting everything behind them to live happily ever after, the darkest hour is not them in their worst state, but rather them looking back at that state and falsely believing how a return to it would solve all their problems. Then the victory becomes the resolve to never go back
"There are no happy endings because nothing ever truly ends." ~The Last Unicorn
I think Sanderson made a great use of a darkest hour for a character with a mental illness in The Rhythm of War, that if done poorly could look like the thing you said shouldn't be done -emerging from a suicide attempt into a glorious climactic victory. But I think the key to make it right were a couple of things. Firstly, the depressed state that drove the character to try to end their life was not just the result of a bad thing that had just happened, but something that had been established throughout the whole book, and even in the previous ones. And second, even though there is a moment of emerging victorious right after, once the climax has passed it is left VERY clear that the character is not out of the woods, and that the progress they made is only the first step on a long road to recovery. So it doesn't become a magical solution that made depression go away instantly.
Anyways, Brandon is awesome, so it's not surprising he was able to pull off such an impactful arc =)
Heck, The character agrees he needs to retire after everything he's gone through. He is still broken just not as broken.
Brandon Sanderson is a writing Juggernaut and a Personal hero of mine, and I agree. He did that beautifully.
Another huge moment of darkest hour, Dalinar in OB. He is destroyed by the knowledge of his past and that's not really resolved when he goes out to the battlefield, he's just pushing on. Its at that climactic confrontation that his arc really comes to a head
Also - another reason Kal works is he doesn't just get power of friendship. There's a profound reveal and discussion with a lost connection that is believable as temporarily adjusting his mindstate.
@@DandDgamer and it affects though closest to him, specifically Syl, negatively when he can't deal with it, which is sad, but realistic. Living with someone struggling with Mental Illness is hard, and it's just a detail I liked.
Darkest hours are probably my favorite parts of stories, and I think whether or not they can pull it off successfully is a true test of an author's skill. Everything that the characters were built up to by all of the pages before lead up to how they handle their darkest hours.
Honestly, I never thought that the time on the lion turtle was Aang's darkest hour, as he was doing all he could to sticking to his morals. I think, his darkest hour was in the first episode of season three where he seemed not even to realize that he was about to toss his morals out of the window, where he was not pondering over sticking to his morals, but already made a decision to act.
Oh, wait, Tim! I've asked before, but do you think you'll ever do a video on introducing new characters? (to an established cast). I know that Toph is probably the gold example, but I think Stranger Things does a pretty good job of it as well.
I will second this subject!
I third this
Character introductions, Please!
Great video. My one disagreement is with the idea that Batman's Character Failure in the darkest hour of the Dark Knight is realizing that he will have to compromise his ethics. The intrusive surveillance gimmick doesn't conflict with his code in the slightest; as he explicitly states to the Joker, he has ONE rule. His Character Failure is that when given the choice between a character who represents the one chance for his own personal happiness and a character who represents the one chance for Gotham's salvation, he chooses "selfishly" to save Rachel (that the Joker lied about which was which is an extra kick in the teeth that adds to his Plot Failure).
Bruce's conflict is whether he can be both a man and a symbol, and this darkest hour causes him to abandon any hope of a life for Bruce Wayne and commit 100% to his mission as Batman. This also functions as the darkest hour for the trilogy as a whole, which is not resolved until he reintegrates his personas and finds happiness as Bruce at the end of Dark Knight Rises.
The Joker technically never lied. He openly tells Batman that he will have to kill either one of them, and that "the act of killing is about making a choice", but Batman misreads the Joker and doesn't listen to his words. Joker gave batman the choice to kill Racheal or Harvey and Batman chooses Racheal. I've watched The Dark Knight 5 times now, and only just picked that up.
@@noah8916 Nice catch that Joker toys with him by obliquely hinting at the game he's playing, but I'm sorry, he very explicitly lies.
"He's at 250 52nd Street. And she's at Avenue X at Cicero." That's a lie.
Froddo does pass his darkest hour, but afterwards you can feel that mentally he'll never be the same. He's permanently traumatised and can't return to the perfect life he had before. Him leaving for the Undying Lands gives you hope that he's on the road to reaching his happy ending
As a reader I find my most common problem with darkest hours is when they finish too quickly or thoroughly. Consider drawing them out, or only resolving them as much as is required to get your characters back in the story. Particularly if you have a series then you can have a lot of things be broken in character at once, and you can resolve them one by one, as needed for various climaxes, without needing to break more stuff every time. Or you can even show that the things that readers thought were fixed maybe weren't as stable as they once believed.
The character not resolving it but having axioms that allow them to continue anyway can work. The character values life as an axiom or freewill as an axiom, the antagonist maybe brings up the fallout to the characters actions or some hypocrisy or paradox with the protagonists actions or world view, darkest hour, protagonist doesn't resolve the internal problem but chooses to continue as he puts his problems in the back burner. Like a damaged flawed protagonist I guess.
00:25 'The last piece of cake has been eaten, and the cake was a lie anyway'
_Knees: knocked_
_Timbers: shivered_
I recently had a big thought about the "Good Story Problem" and life not having these kinds of climax and darkest hours. great to see content about it.
HBOMBERGUY UPLOADED TODAY!!!!
There's a lot of darkest hours there just aren't as many resolutions. In stories there will be some big redemption but in the real world redemption isn't one big act that saves humanity, it's small acts over years and years as you become the person you wanted to be. Getting your shit together, volunteering, taking time to reflect on yourself, who you are, who you want to be, accepting yourself for who you are today while acknowledging it can be better and taking steps to make it happen. Learning to love yourself while being able to be critical of yourself too.
The Tenth Doctor’s character arc across season 4 and into the special episodes (especially The Waters of Mars) is one of my favourite character arcs written.
The waters of mars is an amazing episode, terrified me as a kid
@@Z4KK it’s really good. Honestly though, the Doctor Who episode that terrified me the most was Midnight.
HFM: Tell me, do you have families, do you have friends?
Viewers: The darkest hours.
I consider Flowers for Algernon a story that contends with disability and the darkest hour and handles it amazingly well
Same with the Last Unicorn
Thanks for always saying something to the effect of "Don't be rigid with your structure. Use these as guidelines to make your story the best it can be." I get so sick of people saying even that story has to follow the 3 act structure. It's just a useful tool. Great vid!
I know Tim always jokes about Australia being a mythical land that doesn't exist but he's officially convinced me today when he referred to a cockroach as a grasshopper.
That's not a grasshopper. That's a cockroach. The one living creature people associate with surviving the apocalypse. Along with Twinkies.
Twinkies are living creatures?!!!!
@@TheOverArchiver Come to think of it, that actually explains a lot!
And Tallahassee is damn well gonna get his goddamn twinkie
Oh wait, I never actually thought about that Twinkie bit like that haha
I think one of my all time favorite darkest hours was in Words of Radiance. Those who have read Stormlight know what I’m talking about. But I don’t want to spoil anything for those that haven’t.
Kaladin is the person the archetypal protagonist wishes they were.
Really, Stormlight is just great for darkest hours, great and small and across multiple character arcs.
My favorite was in ROW!
This is hands down my favorite series of anything on TH-cam! You’ve helped me in so many ways. Thank you🙏
The Way of Kings has a very interesting take on the Darkest Hour and story structure. We the audience see it where you'd expect to, right before the climax of the story. For Kaladin though, it happens between chapters 1 and 2, and he spends the rest of the book dealing with it.
more like the rest of the series, but I see your point. I’d argue that that is just his default, and his darkest hours are more like just darker hours. For example, Kaladins darker hour in book one is when he loses Syl, and his climax is when he chooses to defend Elkohar despite hating the guy and realistically having no chance. (At this point he has lost his powers, have a broken leg and is facing two full shardbearers)
I’d argue the true darkest hour is losing Tien, he spends the first book dealing with it, his ‘Tiens’ getting massacred is just the climax of the darkest hour.
Yas. A Tim post. Starts my Friday right.
I really, _really_ like point 3, that not every story "needs" a Darkest Hour. People put this trope up on a pedestal as THE ONLY WAY (tm) to write ANY story, but that is just not true. You shouldn't _necessarily_ write any story according to a single formula (Darkest Hours / Hero's Journey included), storycrafting is *art more than science.*
I mean yeah because it ISN'T science it is quite literally ART, it's art because it's art.
This might be my favorite video from this channel. It made me start thinking about my own writing, and how so much of the darkest hour can be built up before it happens, which can fill a book with more important content!
This is literally why I love this channel. I learn so much every video.
8:30 That's actually a cockroach. It's a great thematic companion for Wall-E, since it's the only kind of creature that can survive on this hellscape we've created for ourselves
Obsessed with the moment around 5:50 where Momo js in your arms, her legs just... sticking in the air like a stuffed doll. She's silly
You should just change your channel name to "Let me explain everything in writing with Avatar"
And you know what? I love it.
Omg… that kitty is SO chill.
I’ve just been reading Stephen Fry’s “Troy” (I really recommend it!), and he mentions “aristeia” a couple times, which is the opposite of the darkest hour: the finest hour, the time to shine, the moment in time for which you were born, the culmination of your destiny.
Now, hearing this great explanation and break-down of the darkest hour, I think I see why the Iliad can run on for so long: it’s because there are several plot-related and character-related dark hours, and the story combines one character’s darkest hour with another character’s finest hour.
Not only that, but in the Iliad, the two sides have their separate finest hours: one army’s advance must be the other’s retreat, so this old epic mastered the use of these two techniques wonderfully. It might be worthwhile to have a video on this antipode though, the finest hour, to see how it’s been integrated in modern literature.
The problem with AoU, is that there are like seven arcs moving at different speeds. If you took each arc individually it would be more clear. Like if it was a crossover series of comics, with each characters story told in their own book. It's unfortunate that it all kind of gets muddied together.
What does AoU stand for?
Age of Ultron, the second avengers movie.
9:25 yes friendly, yes have a family, thanks for the video
I wonder how many Dungeon Masters depend on these videos.
Good vid. My wife and I are currently rewatching Angel (one of my favourite shows) and we recently watched Reprise, which is a perfect “Darkest hour” episode, and a culmination of the arc throughout season 2 so far. And the consequences carry on through the rest of the season and into the next.
Infinity War is definitely my favorite MCU movie. These darkest hour moments in the franchise often feel less satisfying because they just get brushed over so quickly. Having this massive world ending threat looming over the characters for years at that point, everyone truly giving their best effort to win this fight, then loose anyway and letting them (and the audience) sit with this failure for a long time was a brilliant move.
Also, I was so happy for the shoutout to Beartown, one of my favorite books I read last year. It juggled multiple heavy topics with respect and even though it has sequels now, if you read it as a standalone it has the perfect balance of closing character arcs but still feeling open-ended enough to give it just an extra sprinkle of realism. I usually hate these '10 years from now' type of sequences, but there's one instance when Backman pulled it off. He talks about the three best players of the new team stepping out to the rink together and mentions '10 years from now, one of them is going to be pro, the other a family man back home, the third one dead.' (Not a direct quote, I haven't read the book in English.) I have my guess to which one refers to which boy, but it honestly could go almost either way and that's just makes it so much more intrigueing.
I feel like your sarcasm was on point today 🤣 but I also wanted to say thank you for all you do - your work makes me feel less alone.
About the Tenth Doctor's darkest hour in The Waters of Mars: I'd seen that episode before I watched David Tennant's run all the way through, but when I got to that point I was screaming "NO DOCTOR, NO!"
Can't remember the last time I was this early to a video... Love your work! Also congrats on the proposal (be careful, it's a trap! :P)
Your discussion on mental health and darkest hours is why I love the journey of Rand Althor in the Wheel of Time books.
0:36 that's the funniest joke i've heard all month, cheers.
My toddler adores watching you with me and has since she was a baby, so, sure, family friendly. She wants to see more of Momo.
I literally JUST finished Piranesi yesterday… I can’t believe you brought it up, what a fantastic story.
Funny thing about Infinity War is that it kind of depends in which perspective you’re viewing the story from. It’s true that from the Avengers’ perspective it’s the middle of the darkest hour but when you look at the story from Thanos’s perspective he has actually completed his full arc by that point, his darkest hour in my opinion being when he sacrifices Gamora
I love a good darkest moment exist. It's always so satisfying seeing them leaving this state.
Also wall e had a pet cockroach, not grasshopper.
the one version of this trope i am an absolute sucker for, that will rip out my heartstrings every time, is the "you're not alone" moment. when the character is at their weakest, ready to give up, and in most cases, either has become isolated, or has pushed their companions away because of their giving up...and yet everyone comes back to help them and bring them back. funny enough, i've noticed this a lot more in video games than other mediums. FF9, undertale, and to a lesser degree, mass effect.
Thank you. You're truly inspiring. I just finished a three-months-hanging chapter because of your impassioned speech about non-canon structures being okay.
The darkest hour can be a turning point when the hero decides to become the villain because they want to protect someone or a circumstance, usually caused by selfishness. Example, Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader.
Oh you bastard you, that's not fair springing "I can carry you!" on me like that.
Now I'm sitting here crying over my morning coffee; that's my favourite scene in all of media.
Another amazing On Writing, like always! It gave me a bunch of ideas for the Darkest Hour in my series! Thanks so much for all your amazing work!
So, surprisingly, Frozen 2 has an amazing darkest hour for Anna. She is literally and figuratively in a dark place and questions who she is without Elsa and whether she can continue on. Probably the best darkest hour in modern Disney princess movies.
It is adorable how your kitty just gazes up into your face.
After re-watching some of these "on writing" videos, I'm reminded of how great your sense of humor is.
You know it's a quality video when hello future me uploads
Always with perfect timing. These videos always help me in my writing for my many projects. One day I’ll support this channel via patreon but until then good work as always
Yess, thanks man. Love your essays and have listened to all of them. This one came just in time
this is why I love book trilogies. the books are each act 1 2,3.
and there's act 1,2,3 within each book.
Momo just chilling in your arms while you talk is so precious.
God that Doctor Who episode, that really tugs on the heartstrings.
This came in just in time! I'm in the middle of planning my fantasy story and my main character has a huuuge traumatic setback about the middle of the story. This video is gonna help me structure it better and i thank you good sir!💕💕👏🏽👏🏽
That joke about Brad Pitt's wife was a war crime
And you said DOOBLY-DOO
I understood that reference. You have excellent taste
Final amendment, your channel is suitably family friendly and I like it
Only three minutes in and we’ve been blessed by that Se7en joke AND an adorable kitty. Peak content.
Thanks Tim. I've been struggling to get in to writing and having people tell me that there's a structure that you don't necessarily have to follow helps!
I think one of my favorite examples of a darkest hour is in Metal gear rising's dlc for Jetstream sam. During the main story Sam is an antagonist you kill before the final boss, but his dlc paints him as against the same person you were. His "darkest hour" is when he loses. He fails resulting in a loss of his arm and his honor. It doesn't help him ever take down the big baddie, but it makes it all the more satisfying that we did all while reinforcing the danger of this villain.
It is uncanny how suitable this video is for me right now. Just a couple of hours ago I wrote the first draft of a chapter that turned out bad because I had no idea what exactly is its point. I just knew something like that needs to happen. Now I know that must be about the main character's mental troubles beginning to heal. It fits perfectly to what happens in the chapter and the theme of the book.
thank you for mentioning the realities of a road to healing after the darkest hour in mental health rather than everything just being better. I really needed to hear it
I watch this with my kids, we started watching back when they were much younger, so I'd preview before I showed an episode, just in case, but now they're teens, so we can watch for the first time together.
This video came out at the perfect time for me! I've been struggling with the midpoint of my story that should be the lowest point of the whole thing, but I just could not figure out how to make it as such. So this was fantastic, I took a bunch of notes and believe I've got a pretty good idea about the direction from which I can tackle writing this now! The concepts of reaction, dilemma, decision, were particularly helpful, especially since I already had an external force coming in right after to steer the character away from the hate and anger that they were spiralling into, so I think I've got a better idea of how to make it all work together now. Thank you!
I would absolutely love to hear your thoughts on The Green Knight! It has one of my favorite Darkest Hours in film and Dev Patel certainly restores his own honor
It really it cool to me how sincerely you talk about writing and worldbuilding and mental health, and the way you express that is really admirable. I've been working on a variety of writing projects since highschool and your videos have helped me slowly reform my ideas into better works, and as someone autism and Adhd, and is prone to being anxious, it's cool how much you care. Really hope goods things come your way Hellofutureme
I haven't watched your vids in a while. I'll say it straight up I missed your insights, you taught me allot of stuff I know I about writing. Happy to be back.
Thank you so much for touching on the mental health aspect. As someone who's been trying to deal with depression and anxiety (and god-knows what else), seeing movies and shows where depression is 'cured' by some trite is super disheartening and damaging to people struggling. I love that you brought that up and I hope this reaches a lot of authors to help them change that practice
The mental illness bit reminds me of Kiki Kallira Breaks a Kingdom by Sangu Mandanna, a middle-grade fantasy I picked for the Indian mythology, not expecting it to also be one of the best depictions of OCD I've seen.
In it, Kiki overcomes her darkest moment not by 'beating' her OCD, but by realizing it's an illness instead of a personal or moral failing. And the person who helps Kiki see this... well, this moment of connection gives a lot more impact to a later scene with that person.
I really love that talking about it is the moment when you realize the character is on the path of healing in your story. I've run out of too many therapy offices to not know how hard that one step is XD
And yes, you can bribe me with the adorable Emperor Momo
This is an amazing video, thank you so much.
Tim, this is one of your most complex and rewarding videos to me, because of your discussion of how mental illness stories don’t lend themselves to darkest hour and then immediate lightest hour. Thank you for it!
I am so happy I found this channel through your collaboration with Overly Sarcastic Productions. Your media analysis helps put much into words I couldn't quite reach on my own and teaches me more every day about not only how fantastic stories help reach audiences with their use of literary techniques and creative exposition, but also puts into perspective things like mental illness as a trope and how, if handled incorrectly, can harm a community and misrepresent proper identification and care. I am so excited to engage with all of your content!!!!
The fact that you didn't use the movie "Seven" as an example for your point seven, was disappointing.
Still, one of the best channels on TH-cam, and a great episode! Thanks Tim!
I've got five kids, two stepkids, and sometimes they watch your videos with me. Two of my girls are into writing, so they are taking notes and love your videos as much as I do.
So yeah, mate, you're a family friendly channel. :D
This video came at the exact right time for me as I write the darkest hour in my book. Thank you kindly
Just finished binging trope talks and am unreasonably hype for this video love this channel man.
Your work is amazing. I could just listen to you talk for hours on different literary topics and just never get bored. Thank you for creating this content.
I was just thinking, would you say there is a darkest hour in "The Godfather?" If I had to say there is one, I would say it is in the middle of the movie when he decides to kill Sollozzo. Instead of redeeming himself and getting out though, he instead falls deeper and deeper into the family business. I guess that's a feature of tragedy, which wasn't really discussed in the video. Instead of getting redemption from the darkest hour, the protagonist falls deeper and deeper into the dark.
The pivotal 'Godfather' scene seems like the darkest hour. Or when Michael orders the death of the traitor, 'i will make him an offer he can't refuse'
Lmfao I think I’m the darkest hours in my current arc of life. Thank you this was so poignant for both writing and life in a weird way.
I recently discovered this channel
Dude ... I'm in love with your mind. For real. You're so eloquent and smart, you work hard and I can not wait to read your book when it comes out because boy oh boy, it's gonna be good if it comes from that beautiful brain of yours !
Just what to put claps here for the small details 👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾 - using the same titles that are used in the films...I approve
I love Rythm of War. Khaladin battles with chronic depression throughout the series and almost everything that can go wrong does for him in Rythm of War, and he is without the friends who have in the past helped hold him together and keep focused and he does attempt to commit suicide.
But that turns into a triumph, if only a temporary one, but like those steps taken before, they are steps on the right path.