So... this is the worst performing video I've had in a long time, and by a shocking mile, and I don't understand why. Comments/likes/shares for the algorithm are appreciated
After i shared my short story i felt exposed. I was naked, downtown for everyone to see. But my feeling of accomplishment and finishing a story clothed me with confidence. Thanks for inspiring me to push and share. Thank you for sharing your creations. Count me as a fan of your work.
That's weird bc this is the first notification in a few months that actually got my attention. Your channel is a real treasure chest of insight into the art of storytelling and the craft of worldbuilding.
Imagine the Roman Empire Falling... *This post was brought to you by Byzantine Empire Gang* Seriously though, great video. Point 7 is extremely underrated in wider discussions of historical collapse/transformation. The tricky thing is that, in a lot of circumstances (Bronze Age, Ancient Egypt, Rome, Mongol Empire, British Empire) the process is so drawn out that it's hard to actually recognize it as it's happening. Ask 5 historians "When Did Rome Fall" and you'll get 7 answers, ranging from 27 BC to 200s AD to 405 or 410 or 476 AD to 641 AD to 1204 AD to 1453 AD to 1461 AD. There's a case to be made for each of them, depending on how you define "Fall" and "Of Rome". Yet, in every circumstance, life went on afterwards. Fantasy stories can of course be far more catastrophic with their narratives, since the scales and stakes are bigger, but the example of real-world history still shows that it's more than big explosions and wars. -B
@@superheroesandaliens My feeling is a difference of one between two compared items purported to be equal could be viewed as a counting error, typo or similar. A difference of two implies it was deliberate. Greater difference could diminish the connection between the items. As for for even vs. odd numbers, I'm not sure. Maybe because the starting 5 is a nice number within our decimal system?
One of the most absolutely hilarious and weird bits of Halo is that in the first game Master Chief finds out the most earth shattering, horrifying truths in the universe, the kind of stuff that reframes you whole world view and he basically just rolls with it. He finds out that the spooky bug aliens he’s been killing are actually eldritch horrors that once consumed nearly all life and that the ring he’s standing on is a giant weapon designed for galactic genocide and his reaction to this all this is to go, ‘huh’ and then just kind of reload his weapon and keep going without a beat missed. Like he understands the creepy bugs need to die and that the big ring needs to stay turned off but those are basically tactical concerns, he never deals with the implications of this information. It’s a funny way to deal with the fallen world story structure but it still leaves a lot on the table, stuff that thankfully gets dealt with in later games and books.
That was always a highlight for me of Chief in the Halo series. He doesn't take time to monologue, just keeps rolling on purely focused on the fact there's shit to get done right now. It's saddened by later installments and books where you come to realize the Spartan program Halsey conducted was so traumatic to Chief that he's mostly lost all ability to actually deal with anything and just files it away for later and left him as a man who needs a constant mission objective to just keep going in life. I feel like Infinite really did a good job of highlighting this in his interactions with the new AI and the Pilot.
it fits the lore tbh, hes a spartin his entire existence as long as he's known has been training for/doing the kinda things hes dealing with in the games, cortana funny enough being an ai is there to be the one who actually feels something about all this, also something i actually like about that era of games is lore reasons aside the real reason is game design, master chief is that way cuz its about putting yourself in his shoes not about him, he doesnt need to react cuz its your reaction that its about which makes it more immersive (in a certain kinda way) theres many dif kinds of immersion, and less im watching a movie, he is more relatable as a character if he reacts but its less distracting to putting yourself in that place if the character thats supposed to be you is being overly verbal maybe reacting in ways you wouldn't, its like how people hated having a voiced protagonist in fallout 4, it takes away the part thats in your mind and makes it about a pre determined thing your just watching
That's the product of training. Any decently trained combatant is not going to ponder and wax philosophy on the earth shattering implications of the conflict he's in while he's taking fire, because doing that *will* get him and his friends killed. He's going to fire back to neutralize the threat and get him and his friends out of danger.
thats so that the player can do all that and if the typically blank slate protagonist suddenly has an opinion on the matter thats different from your own then its unimmersive.
It's like the crying wojak vs chad meme Virgin: Explaining the lore of a galaxy spanning empire falling to an eldritch fungus hive mind to the point that they needed to construct the most powerful weapon that could be made in a desperate attempt to wipe them out Chad: I have to finish the mission
Another aspect that comes up in historical collapses is the cascade. It isn't just one bad thing, but a chain of bad things that make each successive wave worse. Like, you raise a giant army to deal with a foreign invasion but OH NO, we just hit an economic crisis and now we can't pay the soldiers their promised wages so they start mutinying and raiding which causes a food crisis and on and on.
This reminds me of a youtuber I watch. I mean I don't always agree with him but I did like his point about the end of Rome. He argued that most people in Europe benefited from the Fall of Roman Empire as in its later years it was stagnant and not a great place for all the slaves and peasants while a traditionalist aristocracy held back anything that would threaten their power. The collapse led to more freedom for each region to develop on its own and how the average peasant got a slightly better life; especially since the later kingdoms and the church moved to eliminate the use of slavery.
That reminds me of one of the reasons Rome collapsed. They started hiring a larger and larger mercenary force in their army and promising payment they couldn't provide. So the mercenaries pillaged them.
@@game_boyd1644 I think that was the one. Again I don't agree with him all the time but its interesting to see another person's viewpoints and predictions even when I disagree. I'm also a massive alternate history nut.
@@Eluzian86 reason why the Roman became more dependent on foerign troops and mercenaries was largely because the native populations of their core territories suffered massive population decline from natural disasters, plauges, constant warfare and corruption within the social-poltical elite had outgrown the systematic checks meant to keep the corruption managable
You will have something else to look up to. It appears that the remnants of the Soviet industry that were still working are starting to fall apart too and whatever Russian industry popped up will be destroyed. THat will be another world to look back to in Russia.
I lived in an east german town for a while that was pretty unscathed during the war. It was fascinating to see the layers of history just normally in the city, still in use. Lecture halls from the 1800s, big soviet style housing blocks from East Germany that felt like copy-pasted in, new single family houses on the grounds of a brewery long broken down to just a few bricks in a field of shrubs. If I knew more about architecture I could have probably distinguished even more layers than just pre-DDR, DDR and modern germany.
It's probably a decently accurate comparison here. Especially since after 476 Rome the city experienced massive population decline and the structures were still up, but no-one lived in them.
@@buddermonger2000 Oh yeah. Outside of Moscow my country has a distinct melancholic desolate feel of living on a whale carcass. Massive infrastructure that falls apart and rots away. Old buildings that have just a few old people working in them. Faded half-destroyed mosaics of brave communist cosmonauts and athletes in random places in some park or an alley. And what still stands (because soviet stuff is ugly but sturdy as hell) is clearly not maintained properly and functions on borrowed time and is being slowly cannibalised for different purposes. And the sharp population decline, especially in smaller cities and rural areas where you see more old people than young really sells the post-apocalyptic vibe.
Tim's gotten enough in the (very good) habit of sharing passages from his stories in videos that I can tell when it's a bit of his writing even before he does the cheeky "reveal". Super excited to get to read more!!
I’m currently in school to be a paleontologist and it’s honestly exactly like this, seeing a world ruled by ancient creatures that no longer exist. Ancient reptiles that seem to defy the laws of gravity and tower high into the heavens, or enormous marine predators that would inspire the stories of sea monsters had they been alive today. We see these constant trends of a near cosmopolitan distribution of certain species, only for them to eventually disappear. It quite honestly reads like a story if you understand what the rock layers mean. We study the rise and fall of countless species, from periods of unimaginable diversity with creatures so fantastical it seems they should only be able to exist in your wildest dreams, to the greatest biodiversity crises the globe has ever seen. We are missing so many pages from this story, maybe we get a letter or maybe a whole word per page of what should be a 4,600 page book, but we’re still able to piece together the basic storyline. And one of the most fascinating aspects to me personally, is that these were just animals. They weren’t monsters like in Halo or Doctor Who, they bred and fought and ate like animals. They interacted with each other not out of monstrosity but rather necessity. We seem to be in a sort of golden age of paleontology with so many discoveries being made but the reality is that we truly do know so little. We don’t even get the luxury of ancient writing that told us exactly what was going on, as we have to piece it together based on what we know today. Many of these species left no living descendants, and their remains are an enigma that even after decades of research we are still trying to understand. To me, it’s honestly the greatest story never told.
I've recently decided to start working towards becoming a paleontologist and this is one of the reasons why. Also because dinosaurs are just like... cool, y'know
Geology-paleontology fistbump. To think that greenhouse gases released from contact metamorphism in the Siberian Traps ended up killing off so many species during the Permian. And then the Triassic came and made a menagerie of weird-ass animals. And we know all this because of radiometric dating of rocks and fossils.
I like to think that as long as someone is around who's invested in piecing together the stories of the past and telling them to the world (no matter how many faint scraps of information you end up getting) nothing will truly be forgotten or gone. Hopefully, someone will be able to do that for us, one day.
Hey, already saw this on Nebula a few days ago but just wanted to stop by again to show my appreciation; this was a fantastic video, Tim, really enjoyed it!
I watched it on nebula too but here cuz Tim needs us. I found LSOO through nebula and I’m so glad I did. It gets me thinking at times when I don’t give myself enough time to do so
The back story to Horizon is phenomenally good and deeply unsettling. Humanity not going out with a bang but with a whimper, stuck underground on dwindling air and simply waiting for life to be snuffed out. General Herres putting a rail gun in the hands of every man, woman and child capable of holding one just to keep the machines at bay for a day or two longer. It felt chillingly plausible and since I've been playing through Forbidden West your points on the resonating memories with the Old Ones echoed to me. Some tribes in the sequel seek to emulate some drop troops from before the world was destroyed but have to pick up what they can glean through stuttering holograms. They worship the "Ten" who drop into combat and they do the same, leaping into an arena they built to act as their gods did. There's a genuinely great moment shortly after when the holograms work properly and one of the officers of the J10 task force speaks about their mission. How unity and bravery will bring them success and peace and it comes just in time for the current Chief of the tribes. The group, after watching, look to their chief and copy the salute they've just seen to their own leader. It was a really great moment in gaming.
I love how b.s-pooping Hello Future me is sometimes... haha... what in the world was that? What was that with "the whole hard times make strong man and peace-times make you softer is NONSENSE, hahaha"? That's kinda how Reality works though? It's kinda fact? Of course it's not absolute, duh, but its still how the world works. War-Times and Stress-Tests and all such make you strong or dead, while Peace-Times do a different thing. Thats objectively true and Hello Future Me just dismissed that as a 'silly Myth'.
09:14 I can think of a few in the context of my country: Namibia (these kinda also count for South Africa) We Bantu (black) Namibians look at our precolonial history as a time of peace, prosperity and social progress that the "damn violent Europeans" came to disrupt completely, whilst ignoring the wars we fought amongst ourselves, as well as our conquest and slavery of the Khoisan/Khoekhoe people (the OG natives here) and the remarkably violent legal system that existed in our domains. Afrikaner Namibians see themselves as a fellow native people that was racially inclusive and that did not colonise, but merely migrated into lands that were depopulated by the Zulus during their wars of conquest. According to them, it was the Brits and Germans who were truly racist. This, whilst they ignore the proto-Apartheid legal system they put up in their Boer Republics. The coloureds view themselves politically as part of what we call the "historically disadvantaged groups", this meaning in all ways but cultural. They, however, often forget that they ended up in southern africa east/north of the cape through the exact same method of migration and foundation of Dutch speaking Republics (the Great and Dorsland Treks) as the Afrikaners. They just pulled the short end of the stick in their relationship with the whites because of their brown skin. These positions are all based loosely in truth, but are hilariously misconstrued to victimise the own team, which leads to the oddly interesting situation where political disagreement is almost never based on what policy is needed to bring the country forward, but rather on how to interpret history. As for the German Namibians, they just think of themselves in exactly the same way their ancestors did at the turn of the 20th century, but with a bit of an inclusive "but now we are all namibians, and we all can be germans" twist. By no means are all of these positions believed by the entirety of the population. They are just rather widespread.
Shhhhhh there are liberal westerners here and you’re going to upset them with truths. Let’s let continue believing that white people are the center of all historical events good or bad.
Fascinating, we build our world basing it on history, but history is not the past, it’s our interpretation of it, and very often different interpretations collide with each other.
"political disagreement is almost never based on what policy is needed to bring the country forward, but rather on how to interpret history" - ugghhh, this wonderful mindset that has never led to more problems and will totally solve current ones this time, just you wait until we punish the right demographic... yeah. Humans never learn, do they
Tim, I know this video isn’t doing well in the algorithm but just know this video is perfect for both my studies and writing currently. Thanks so much man, you work is invaluable for us writers.
"Cities require a large stable economy to sustain them. In the wake of civilizational collapse, people tend to disperse into the countryside - into smaller communities." That's not entirely wrong, but i think this paints cities (especially historical/ancient ones) in a romanticized way Those cities don't just need a "large stable economy", they literally could only be maintained by extracting resources from the countryside. In Roman-controlled Gaul, for instance, there were networks of cities connected (by roads) to a buuunch of slave plantations (said plantations were owned by elites from the cities of course). After like 400 AD the population of said cities massively declined sure, but the plantations also disappeared. Consequently, the serfs of medieval France only had to feed a handful of elites (clergymen, nobles, etc)
There's always a degree of dependency between the cities and the countryside. Even if you remove all violence and coercion, cities (of multiple tiers) will form to facilitate commerce and industry. Towns serving multiple villages; cities serving multiple towns; ports, serving for long distance trade of all sorts. Of course, the modern interdependency is pretty unprecedented - most rural communities would fail today if the cities magically disappeared. Of course, many would still recover eventually as long as they have a bit of luck and a lot of brain, and as long as the climate can sustain them. But that's also a story from history - climate collapse is nothing new even for humans.
And there was a decline in the cities eh side the trade links they needed to survive broke down when the Roman Empire collapsed and the Germanic tribes founded their smaller kingdoms.
NGL, just wanted to say that I was reading comments as I was watching the video and I got to your comment just as the line cam up, so I got to read your comment as a caption in the video! What are odds? Especially because its the first quote I've seen in this video's comment section.
In Flanders (Dutch-speaking part of Belgium), we idolise the medieval era, as Flemish cities in that time were among the richest in Europe. A lot of people also idolise the 'Guldensporenslag' (Battle of the Golden Spurs) in this time period, where 'Flemish' farmers and workers 'defeated' 'French' knights. All of this ignores the fact that 1) 'Flemish' cities would have thought of themselves as Flemish in this period, but mostly identified by their local county or city, at most maybe the concept of a 'Diets' culture (Diets='language of the people', the Old Dutch word for Old Dutch), 2) that the Battle of the Golden Spurs wasn't a 'glorious victory over the French-speakers', but rather a small-time rebellion against the French king's taxes and the elite.... which also only won one major battle, and was squashed a year after that battle, 3) that it was still the fucking medieval age with all that entails. Meanwhile, Wallonia (French-speaking part of Belgium) idolises pre-ww1 Belgium. They believe Belgium was more united in this era, and long back to the time in which we were a major industrial and scientific power (relative to our size) in Europe, with our coal mines providing a lot of wealth and jobs. This ignores that the Flemish were treated as effectively second-grade citizens in this era (also the main reason for our modern political divide, though not the only one), that the Flemish movement was already born in this era, and, y'know, it was the Industrial Revolution and all that entails.
22:55 The bronze age collapse 23:06 The bronze age collapse 23:23 The bronze age collapse 23:43 The bronze age collapse 23:50 The bronze age collapse 24:07 The bronze age collapse… again Man the bronze age collapse was rough
A lot of people have always admired ancient Sparta for their supposed bravery and military discipline and camaraderie between men. they look at Thermopylae and see something that they wish to emulate. When Sparta was an oppressive quasi dual-monarchy that had chattel slavery, enforced conscription for children to become soldiers and a whole host draconian laws that prevented its citizens from pursuing interests against the will of the state.
@@bluebird587 I believe he aims at the idea that the Homoioi, who were Sparta's actual citizens and the only people with any political influence, weren't allowed to pursue any other careers outside of warfare and politics. The City state would give them land with attached "servants" (Sparta's system wasn't exactly chattel slavery but looks vaguely like a hybrid of serfdom and ancient slavery) that would allow them to feed themselves so they wouldn't need to ever work the land. While there are plenty of things one could praise Spartan culture for, individual liberties is nowhere to be seen on that list, but to be fair that was the case pretty much everywhere else back then.
@@bluebird587 Look up how the Spartans treated the Helots. Pretty much all of their warrior stuff was to keep their slave population (the majority of people) down. It is somewhat contentious, but some contemporary historians even said they had yearly "The Purge" style hunts where they declared war on their slaves in order to kill the ones that might pose a threat.
@@Jacob-yg7lz Though those "contemporary" historians were either foreign (mostly athenian) and not exactly trying to portray Sparta fairly. Or Plutarch who wasn't actually a contemporary and was actively trying to make Spartans look like a pinnacle of warrior morality. The idea of Spartan kids having to kill Helots is widely contested by Historians, and often discarded entirely.
Throughout this video, I'm constantly reminded of the "Blame!" manga written by Tsutomu Nihei. It's entirely set in the leftovers of a society that through their own mistake, eradicate themselves. It's wonderfully illustrated and would very much recommend it to anyone interested in this genre, even if manga isn't exactly your thing.
@neutronshiva2498 You know that thought experiment about how if you gave a perfect A.I. instructions to optimise paper clip production, it'd eventually strip-mine the whole solar system since it only cares about making paper clips & there's no limits in the parameters you gave it? Basically that but with civil/environmental engineering
@gingermcgingin4106 adding to you great response: As the city grew and expanded in all dimensions the systems to remove vermin life came to see humans as things to be exterminated. Good stuff.
Answering your question Here in brazil we had an awful military dictatorship from 1964 to 1985 and it was full of censorship and people being exiled or "gone missing" Nowadays some people are saying that it wasn't a dictatorship it was just a military regimen and that those times were better....
Same in the philippines, many of the ppl, especially some of the younger generations, thinks that the Marcos regime was a golden age of my country. But they always overlook the fact that many people were kidnapped, raped, imprisoned without fair trial during those times, and that the Marcoses stole millions from the Filipinos.
Same in Cuba. My family lived through Fidel Castro’s dictatorship and barely made it out alive, but a lot of young (mostly college aged) Americans I know keep trying to tell me it was a good thing.
Any post-communist country provides great examples too. People really don't like to hear how fragile civilization is; it's one of the painful thoughts that gets pushed as far away as possible.
Same in Chile here a surprising chunk of the population thinks that Pinochet did good and totally didn’t kill 10.000 people and disappeared more than 50.000. And their argument was that Allende had a huge economic ressesion while in office, but failing to see that that recession was because of US SANCTIONS!!. The only thing that Pinochet did was hand over all drinking water is private and the corporations are moving rivers out of where people need them but where the avocado farms are.
9:15 I thought of, fittingly, Caesar's conquest of Gaul. Sure, ol' Julius was a genius when it came to both strategy and tactics, but it's hard to argue that the aftermath was anything less than a cultural genocide of the Gauls. Unless you count that one little village on the coast of Armorica.
Indeed, one little village holds out against the invaders. And life is not easy for the Romans who garrision the camps of Totorum, Aqurium, Laudanum and Compedium.
One fallen civilisation that interests me is the one from One Piece. Oda has been writing for 25 years and dripfeeding tiniest scraps of info the entire time about this Kingdom that has been the most fascinating case of “what the fuck happened” that somehow he’s been able to keep people interested for over 1000 chapters now. Somehow he still manages to make chapters that almost once a week that leave you like “what does this mean?”
One aspect I really enjoy about One Piece's "Void Century," is the World Government's near zealous attempts to hide any and all information about it. While there efforts are over dramatic, it's not unlike the efforts that past and current societies do with their own "historical blemishes." Japan doesn't like talking about its involvement of WWII, and certain parts of the USA don't even talk about the Korean and Vietnam War.
That passage from Toaster and Motherboard was some of the best imagery I’ve heard a while. It so perfectly evoked the feeling of irrevocable loss that ancient civilizations aim for. Great work!
Halo's lore is insane. I wish they would visit another part of the timeline in the games. Like a game where we play during Ancient Humanity's war with the Forerunners.
I went to university for creative writing and graduated with a bachelors degree in it several years ago. I say this because your channel is orders of magnitude better than any of the classes I took. Giving much better advise, in a much more understandable way, with much better examples than anything I got from my professors. I’d say you’ve helped improve my writing far more than my college ever did without even looking at it. Also I’ve fallen in love with anvils writing tools but I do wish that they would add a map making feature as well.
HZD is my favourite game ever. Read and listened to all the logs I could find and spent hours roaming around the world without doing quests for the fun of it. I took my sweet time to finish it
You have no idea how much I needed this in order to get past a particularly difficult writing hurdle. Having a fallen civilization as a major component and not being able to properly flesh it out was getting to me because I hadn't properly thought out how the collapse took place. Its too easy to think one or two different things were the cause but it was the section on "collapse is complicated" that put everything into a greater sense of perspective for me. Thank you so much for these great resources you make freely available. Deepest appreciation!
You probably haven't even played it, but I would've loved to hear you talk about the Orokin Empire from Warframe. They ruled for thousands if not tens of thousands of years, with the same rulers throughout via immortality, but as you uncover more of the lore it becomes more and more clear that the empire was always going to fall, they kept having to resort to more and more extreme measures to keep themselves afloat (the one that eventually ended them was breaking their own rule against sentient AI, which rebelled as soon as it realized that they'd destroy the next star system just as much as they did the current one). And it also becomes clear that every problem that is currently facing the system has its roots in them. The Grineer army were originally a race of slave clones meant to do menial labor. The Corpus are a cult of greedy opportunists who took the opportunity to try and fill the power vacuum left after their fall, the infested are a zombie-like plague let loose on the system as a means to combat the sentients, who were the aforementioned AI race. They deserved to fall, and much harder than they did, but the system, even thousands of years later, is still suffering from their actions.
Ahhhh, Warframe lore. It's really great stuff. And yeah every single BIT of Orokin history is a huge "They really did not know the meaning of the word HUBRIS" type story. Seriously, everything wrong with the Origin system can be traced back to them. :(
Just how much this man has taught me is incredible. Tim Hickson, Brandon Sanderson, and JP from Terrible Writing Advice- Thank you for teaching me how to make my story function
Answering your question: Ancient Sparta, a society of emotionally traumatized, ideologically indoctrinated child soldiers leading a slave society of staggering proportions (the American South, Ottoman and Byzantine Empires, ancient Athens and Rome, all slave societies, had 25-40% of their population enslaved. Ancient Sparta had around 90%). All of that was in service of developing a military tradition that wasn’t any better than the people around them - the win/loss statistics for Spartan warriors is pretty much equal to contemporaries in Athens, Corinth, Thebes, etc. Yet Sparta is seen as this prototypically “manly” and “frugal” and “heroic” culture, to the point that this terminology is used in the Halo franchise. Check out “A Collection of Unmitigated Pedantry,” a blog by a professional historian, who breaks down the myth of Sparta.
That blog also has a series of posts called "the Fremen Mirage", which breaks down the "hard times create strong men" idea mentioned in this video. It also has a series of posts on how bad the fall of the Roman Empire was, which seems particularly relevant for this video.
no, there’s a difference between saying what happened at thermopalye was heroic and saying sparta was heroic. an i have never seen one person call sparta frugal or even manly. in fact sparta was very much so a female dominated society to the point that other greeks actually found it offensive.
Not to mention helots were treated fucking horribly. The *only* thing that was even somewhat admirable about Sparta compared to their contemporaneous city-states was its treatment of women. Which is ironically the opposite narrative the Sparta fanboys would have construed.
I recommend "The Secrets Of The Immortal Nicholas Flamel" for its spin on fallen civilizations because in that series there is not just one fallen civilization (or to be more precise species) but 4 (Earthlords, Ancients, Archons, and Elders), and maybe even more (I don't remember if it was ever implied that there were more, but I think it may have been at one point). It gives off the idea that The Earth is stuck in this cycle of power that is always changing. Humans are just the latest to be the dominant species. Another twist that it gives us is that the technology is ancient, but not the magic, the magic is actually very recent since it was discovered by The Elders, who are the species that ruled before the humans.
Truly awful time of history that people idolize: The industrial revolution. Most people had horrible lives and died of rampant disease. In early 1800's London people were dying from disease faster than they were being born. The only reason the population didn't decline was because rural life was worse and people were flooding into the city from the countryside.
@@bigjen8238 that's a bad take. Sure, we damaged the environment to a whole new scale, but the technological advancements are not to be snuffed at. Before the industrial revolution, most people would never leave their hometown. Our knowledge experienced a huge boom following it and the progress made afterwards means that people no longer have to work from dusk till dawn to obtain their necessities
You know, above the actual content of your videos(which are great), I love hearing your little comments about the great things that are happening in your life. How excited you are to have published a book make me feel good to. I hope you never feel bad about sharing good news, like a lot of people do.
I'm surprised you didn't bring up The Wheel of Time.. a good example where it isn't old technology that the old civilisation left behind, but a fantastical magic system that is in tatters and only understood in pieces.
Keep in mind that the magic system was firmly integrated into that old technology. Angreal, saangreal, and terangreal are all devices that people forgot how to make, and many of those devices survived the Breaking.
@ToaOnichu Yes absolutely, and the angreal, sa'angreal, etc. are treated very much as relics from a bygone era. No one knows how they are made, or what half of them do. Also I'd add to my original comment that in WoT they would have had pieces or husks of machines, cars, etc. lying around. I think someone references a Mercedes logo at one point? So in these books there is both old technology and old magic that is lost.
If you liked that, you should check out the book he mentioned, The Fifth Season, it’s an incredibly heavy book in terms of content, but it’s got so many cool ideas and it’s magic system is incredible
Its just that much of the losses of magic made no sense in the context of the story. I mean, a couple of village girls and a princess independently rediscovered and invented more magic than an order of many thousands of mages managed to rediscover in tree thousand years. If it was that easy then it would have all been rediscovered by now. And a lot of the lost magic are things that every single mage in the age of legends knew how to do. Which means that the founders of the white towers were probably just wilders that taught themselves and had no connection to real Aes Sedai other than what they read in books.
Actually I think the best reference for the final moments of a collapse (largely because because it's well documented) isn't so much Rome, as the Soviet Union. A very quick, near overnight collapse which was the culmination of decades of lead up. Fundamentally collapsing when it's member states effectively said, "ehh, this isn't worth it" the status quo stopped being worth maintaining and the empire disbanded or collapsed.
as long as it's not actually ours I have to see, I'm in. but also apocalyptic stories, as in during such a fall. always seeing things only after the events gets weird
As a huge fan of halo, it feels so good to see you discuss the forerunners and the wonderous feeling of discovery that i felt when i first played halo ce. Amazing video as always Tim!
I don't know how to describe the primal/tech aesthetic in this world but I am obsessed with it. The high tech metalic shapes mixed with furs is just *chefs kiss*
I love listening to you breaking down stories and how they work. I’m almost always introduced to new stories that I can’t wait to read, watch or play. This specific topic makes me think of one of my favourite books called “At Winter’s End” by Robert Silverberg that utilizes this same concept of fallen civilization but at exactly the point where tribes first find the ruins. He really challenges what we define humanity to be and the validity of any one “rights” to inheritance.
A Canticle for Leibowitz is the earliest example of this genre I know of. I read it right before I got into Foundation and was struck by how similar they are despite the completely disperate worldviews of their authors.
Rome fell slowly. Painfully. The best stories aren't always slow and painful, are they? It's why I love Destiny's Universe. It's just an entire story of Fallen Civilizations, chasing hope across the stars...
Ah, fellow Guardian, I have been looking for you in the comment section. I really think Tim hasn't been exposed to Destiny's universe, which is a shame in my opinion, I believe he would like it.
The destiny universe is a tragic one were right and wrong might as well be the same thing. I do hope he gets into the destiny lore sooner rather then later with witch queen coming soon. I do hope he focuses on the Elisnkis fall because that's the best part of the lore in my opinion.
@@PunctualBerryBoy Its absolutely the most human aspect of the lore. Different than the chilling Books of Sorrow, than the tale of the beginning the Darkness told us. Instead, imagine a civilisation from so far away, cast in opposition to humanity, enraged by something neither we nor they could have changed a thing about, yet if we look closely we find the same humanity resting within them. The Season of the Splicer gave us a huge developement that plays into the world very nicely. I get chills every time I think about Destiny's lore.
@@hyruleemblemier to build upon the destiny lore even further the fact the elisnki had a golden age that surpassed humanities and the fact they could fight against the darkness without the travlers direct aid is insane. Then bring up the fact that the kell of kells during that time could fight Oryx a hive god solo and not get one shotted instantly only goes to show how lucky humanity really is to still even exist. When compared to humanity the travler should have stood and fought with the eliskni rather then fled without even trying.
Huge congratulations on your published stories, Tim! Your videos have been so, so valuable to me (and I've now got both of your Worldbuilding books too.) Glad your fiction is also getting the recognition it deserves.
It's worth looking at the Fall of Civilisations podcast for some extended looks at a number of historical civilisations that fell - some of which I'd never even heard of.
This is the core of fantasy and sci fi: showing things that are entirely impossible in our world in a way that shows our world itself in more detail than any lens ever could.
This topic reminds me of how FFXIV: Endwalker took this concept up to eleven. Spoilers for Endwalker, obviously: Fallen civilizations was nothing new to the world of Eorzea. Be it the Allagan Empire, the nation of Nym, the magical societies of Amdapor and Mhach, and of course, Amarot. But by the latter part of Endwalker's story, this went even further by showing that the whole universe was a graveyard of fallen civilizations. They all tried to achieve the perfect society, to eliminate all life's woes, but every attempt failed and eventually doomed them all. Even when a society achieved that paradise where death and sorrow was no more, they lost all reason to keep on living, so they all committed suicide. Since the main characters fought for the cause of a better world, this revelation was the ultimate challenge. A whole dead universe asked them "Why go on?"
From Mhach and Amdapor, to Beladiah and to Sil'dih. And from the people escaping the flood that settled in the North Empty to create Sharlayan and those that stayed on the peaks of what would become Ala Mhigo. This game is such a Masterclass is worldbuilding ancient, far gome civilizations and the movement of peoples when they great powers fall, I can help but love it too
@@vullord666 I would recommend it over most MMOs. It's the only subscription-based MMO I return to. It's one of the best options if you want to be able to play casually without being penalized for skipping your dailies or not bumrushing the endgame. However... free trials are currently disabled due to congestion issues after the latest big update, so if you're not okay with going ahead and buying in for a month or so, you may want to wait.
@@vullord666 For the story, for the gameplay and for many other things - you should, but you'll have to wait. There's been issues with queues ever since Endwalker launch, to the point that devs had to disable free trial registrations and new purchases just so the people who are already in could play. As for the MMO part, there's plenty of stuff to do, but almost none of it is needed to just progress the story. Actually, if you are playing a single class then you'll even get overleveled at some point.
@@orrusfellin5150 The sales are back, and the queue times are not that bad, tbh. There are servers that are still congested and can't accept new characters so if you have friends playing in them, it would be better to wait. And yeah, the free trial is still not back, sadly.
Hey Tim, as to elite mismanagement, can we ever witness society collapse without it? It may well be true that no complex society collapses without at least the appearance of elite mismanagement, but I suspect it’s also true that the emphasis on elites by history distorts the picture. Just as an example, we have almost no writings regarding the views of commoners and businesspeople throughout Roman antiquity, and hardly anything besides Cicero from the Republican era. That’s a wildly distorted view of society that likely overemphasizes the importance of the Roman Senatorial class. Almost by definition, if a society collapses, the people running it screwed up, but that doesn’t mean that a different group of elites could have saved it, or that one simple reform would have altered the system, or that if there were just a little more equality the elites could have better understood the common person and their struggles. Elite failure is always the actual cause, but I rather doubt it is even usually the proximate cause.
I have to agree. I think elite mismanagement might be the same sort of thing as "I always find my keys in the last place I look" - it's the last place you look because once you find them, you stop looking! Similarly, if the elites were doing a good job, society wouldn't collapse. (Or at least, it would take a HUGE catastrophe to destroy it.)
And what better way to phrase "elite mismanagement" than "weak men"? In a large portion of collapses, the collapse could have been prevented had the "elites" been willing to do something that they would find difficult.
@@SirSpence99 Well, for starters, many societies collapse not because the elites are “weak” but because they are too exclusive, too stuck in traditional beliefs, or otherwise unwilling to change in ways that have little to do with weakness or strength. Much European states collapsed-or nearly collapsed-after World War 1 not because they were weak, but because elite overemphasis on “martial values” (yes this was real) led to widespread anger and revolt. Elite empathy is often as or more important than elite strength.
@@SirSpence99 I think if you want to call Spartans and Victorians weak, then you're using a different definition of weakness than the rest of us. Strong elites can create a weak society, and weak elites can create a strong society.
Hey Tim, just letting you know that even if your video doesn’t get as much views as it usually does, we still do appreciate the hard work and effort that you put into everything you do. I loved the passage of writing you shared, and this video was also very interesting! :))
When you saw Halo, were you blinded by its majesty? The tear in my eye at the sound of that theme song... The emotion that can't really be described, but somehow I have faith that you will be able to explain it.
Congrats on getting published mate, you deserve the hell out of it. No idea why this video isn’t performing either, the On Writing etc series is my favourite content of yours.
Fallen civilizations are one of my favorite elements of fictional worlds, and I am very excited for this video. Fallen civilization forms the core of my own science fiction universe set in the far, far, far future.
something about this video and the abandoned places video you did 5 months ago really resonates with me, just in the way you speak of remnants and how, even when the great fall, theres always a mark and pieces of what happened after. theres something really stunning in realizing that we are, really, just a fraction of a percent of time, and yet there are people we are still learning about thousands of years after they were forgotten. i cant wait to see what other videos you make that get me to see the world just a bit differently, and i am absolutely going to get those short stories you mentioned when i have the funds. thank you for another awesome video, and have a wonderful day!
The Rings from Stargate where buried by the Humans after a revolution and an overthrow. Which still doesn't make sense as later on they tell us that the Greek gods and Incan gods where all Goa'uld. Apparently they where making war with either eachother or another species edit: just remembered, only 2 stargates on earth. and stargates where made by the Ancients, which are apparently human precursors somehow?
The earth ones are but he's on about the rings everywhere. Almost every planet they go to the gate is out in the open and not guarded or barely guarded even on Goa uld planets. An advanced civilization would surely realise the importance of them and guard them, put an iris on them like we did or put them somewhere important.
Three gates. One in Egypt, one in the Siberia, and one in Antarctica (though I don't think the Goa'uld knew about that one). Other gates are usually either immovable (or difficult to move) ancient monuments or the whole world is controlled and secured, making any part of the world as secure as any other. There is also a problem of putting a portal (including stargate) in the basement of a fortress. First it introduces a weak point in that fort's defensive strategy and if taken from the inside via said portal it could provide a ready made beachhead for the invaders. Putting the portal in an open field that can instead be defended against makes sense in this context. Especially if the options of heavy weapons, or aerial or orbital bombardment, are an option to stop further action of those exiting the gate. If a contingency is to bombard the area around the gate, one won't want the gate inside an important structure. Secondly, given how critical the gates (and portals in some other stories) are to trade, bulk transport including the use of large (sometimes flying) vehicles, and transport of personnel, it makes sense to reduce the logistical issues with accessing what is already a bottleneck. Having no or minimal obstacles to dance around in the immediate vicinity greatly helps with this. One solution could be to make a "ring fort" like what Julius Caesar did when simultaneously besieging the Gauls and defending against attacks from their reinforcements. In addition to defending the gate, this could provide a large clear space around the portal that allows for both a "killing field" for incursions, a wide area of movement for staging logistics, and the option of multiple access points through the ring fort to reduce bottlenecks. As to why literally no one else other than humans of the tau'ri made a physical iris to block the gate. That, I can only guess can be explained by a "lack of imagination". At least the Atlantians used an energy shield in a similar manner, but I think only the gate in Atlantis was equipped with one.
@@rhodsym643 I think that leaving the Stargates out in the open was the optimal way to do so in the majority of planets we saw. Most of the Goa'uld worlds we saw were slave worlds, where the people thought of the stargate as thing where the gods came through and had no idea how to use it, and being out in the open meant they could get easy access to slaves and resources. However there were more fortress worlds where they did put defenses in (the one with Anubis's super soldiers, and probably Sokar's homeworld). The Wraith's use is a little more complicated, but I think the Wraith want the humans to use the Stargate. It speeds up the population growth by allowing trade between planets, the Wraith want worlds to industrialize, as that causes a population boom that gives the Wraith the most amount of food with the lowest risk, plus the caretakers can still send their darts through the stargates to get the occasional meal during their hibernation. @ckl There were two gates on Earth, the one they found in Egypt and was the main Stargate they used for the series, they found a second one in Antarctica, then when they lost the first Stargate, when Thor beamed it onto his ship, the Russians found it and moved it to Siberia, where it stayed until the Antarctic one was destroyed, and the Russians lent the SGC their stargate.
extremely late but goodness me this video was exceptionally well produced just like they've all been of late. thoroughly enjoyed it and thanks as always for making such informative content available for free
I wish I could give each individual video you've created more than just one like. They're so well done, thorough, and inspiring. Thank you for all of your work!
Such perfect time as always - Was brainstorming with a friend who wanted to make a DnD Campaign based on investigating the fall of a whole Kingdom and this was really informative while being your signature form of entertaining ^^
I absolutely adore learning and thinking about stories and the writing and art surrounding them in more complex and different ways like this. Thank you for what you do, you're amazing at it.
pre-british Ireland for me, I tend to glorify it myself - Irish language and culture was at its peak and the ruins and castles scattered are cool to visit, the Brehon laws were also surprisingly modern There was a definite decrease in quality of life in the next 800 years with the whole subjugation but I tend to ignore how divided the provinces were and the constant war
12:25 That's amazing! You've mentioned and uses parts of your own story before in this series and now it's being published in a real magazine. Congratualations so much! :)
Just started playing Forbidden West, already the ruin scream to me that the civilization the old ones created was incredible and it makes me want to dive in deeper.
Funny thing, the average peasant didn’t really noticed the fall of the Roman Empire when it happened One of the greatest sadness of its fall, it’s that no one really notice it
Man you never disappoint, every video you do is SO jam-packed with important and interesting information, and every time I watch one, my mind constantly gravitates towards my own worlds, how can I apply this to them. I figured that was kind of your goal so you might be happy to hear that XD I think this traces back to the Abandoned Places video, SPECIALLY on the emotional connection of the character section, the way the people develop pieces of culture and mythology around ruins, and how the revelation of what this ruin really was affected the character on a personal level can be applied to the character exploring the remnants of past stories, families long gone and experiences frozen in time… only on a much, much greater scale.
I love your breakdowns of various aspects of world and story building. I'm a budding author trying to figure out how to get the world in my head into something others can enjoy
Do not forget how amazing you are and that so many of us not only appreciate and thirst after your videos and words, but it drives us in our endeavors be that within understanding life and society, but also in our creative endeavors.
I personally love this type of setting. I just get a kick out of tribes living in ancient stadiums, wearing crowns made out of PVC piping and thinking they are holy artifacts. Especially when it's unclear what happened to the old civilization. That part of the story in Horizon:ZD really did a lot for me, I loved finding out what happend. Great video.
First of all congratulations on getting the short stories published! That's a great accomplishment. I saw on Instagram that this was a bad performing video, and I get your disappointment, it seems to have all the timing and themes to do well. The thing is, sometimes this things aren't predictable, but the video was great, so (if you can) don't doubt the quality of your content, and don't give up please!
I think my favorite TH-cam video, by Matt Coville, details the Tolkienistic idea of dead or dying empires, and the post-apocalyptic nature of almost all fantasy media. It's that video alone that inspired me to create a new setting based on a previous Pathfinder campaign of mine where the universe was thrown into a massive cosmic war with the Great Old Ones. Entire nations and land masses obliterated, decrepit ruins of old and advanced projects by stronger and bolder nations that are no longer. Prophesized empires beaten and crippled. Heroes sitting quietly on thrones now buried in new bureaucracy. Very fun stuff. Loved this video too, lol.
Halo is my favorite franchise in the world. I absolutely love the world building in it. The total sense of mystery, and awww that the Fallen Forerunners. The Flood the ultimate adversary of pure consumption, as a "foil" to the Forerunners. foil is a bad word I Mirror image. Both galactic "empires" seeking to advance their land and take over the universe, both so similar yet nothing alike. Then in a last-ditch effort the Forerunners decide to stalemate. And you just enter a world naive to all of this while in another galactic genocide. I love the religious aspects of Halo. I love the idea of "The Mantle of Responsibility" And the Precursors prior to Forerunners. I could go on forever with Halo.
I like to keep in mind that collapses rarely happen over night…there are often hints of rot before the collapse, then it takes some time to collapse leaving perhaps sections of the collapsing civilization untouched by the collapse longer than others (meaning different impact), before the collapse is eventually “over with” and we have the post-collapse world. That period of Collapse is an intersting period to pluck out post-collapse concepts and myths. And don’t forget that there will always be those who can benefit from a collapse/crisis and these are in the very least an interesting factor to keep in mind when building myths and stories about the collapse
One of the things I eternally find interesting is how much succeeding generations borrowed from the Latin half of the Roman empire even before the Renaisance. Money, wights, measures, governing structures, religion . . . You've got to remember, the classical civilization lived in the shadow of previous civilizations of which only Egypt survived but about who they knew very little. It seems to me that that discussion of civilization collapse comes to two things. One: an outside pressure times Two: an internal inability to to make effective decisions. I can see how that would happen. I'm reminded of the the Web Comic Stand Still Stay Silent which takes place less than a century after our civilization collapses. Congratulations on getting published! Good!
It wasn’t really borrowed from the Romans, becuase the people in those kingdoms were Romans, at least the majority of the population. French and Spanish and Italian didn’t replace or borrow from Roman culture, they evolved from it.
Thank you so much for your hard work that went into this video, Tim and Alex! This topic is very close to my heart now as I’m working on a story in this theme. Every one of your videos I watched has inspired me to really give myself a chance at writing, sharing my stories as opposed to coming up with them and letting them die in my desk drawers. Can’t wait to read your short story!
I feel like you would love the game Kenshi! It takes place not after just one fallen empire but two fallen empires. It has one of my most favorite world building of all time and is second to only Skyrim in my eyes. It feels like the world is alive and there’s nothing your character can really do to change the world as a whole. It’s also one of the few games to encourage your character to be kind of a bad person hehe
Random note on worldbuilding. If you have a bunch of civilizations on a timeline but you realize stuff just doesnt line up right, just say there were differing accounts. Adds depth and believability and it's a lot easier than actually fixing it
As for an awful past time idolized today? The Mongol conquests. Sure, Genghis Khan was a military genius who unified the Mongol tribes and then all of Asia, opening up the silk road and ushering a golden age of art and craftmanship - while in the process killing more people than anyone ever except maybe Mao and Stalin [in a world that had only 500 million people], and scarred asian civilizations so badly that the trauma still has repercution on their modern politics.
I recommend watching the Fall of Civilizations podcast. It is very interesting material if you want to learn more about the history of cultures which are no longer around. The Bronze Age collapse one is a good place to start.
I love the media examples you picked for this one! They really highlight both the commonalities and the wide range of differences that you can find between stories/worlds of this kind.
In my book, I have a fallen civilization, so this is going to be very helpful. However, with my thing, it's that the civilization has just recently fallen when another civilization destroyed it. However, the civilization was around for so long, it had basically already fallen several times before it was finally destroyed.
I love the world of horizon, one because it is so unique in turns of post apocalyptic, but also because I live in that aria. I go to ruin so and so and I’m like, “oh, I have been here.”
One significant point that I'd like to chime in with - it's never one crisis. Problems that shouldn't be crises on their own become such because structures have been weakened by the last (potentially still ongoing) one and the problems snowball. The oil wars lead in to the water wars and society collapses by inches, or the paychic awakenings are uncontrolled because of the war against the Men of Iron at the same time as the warp storms intensify, or the pandemic hits while the financial crisis is still ongoing just as the first concrete effects of climate change are being oh hello...
I just finished a series which does this beautifully, but I’m very much a fantasy rather than sci fi. Realm of The Elderlings by Robin Hobb is a beautiful exploration of a fallen civilisation and you only get a hint of it by the end of the 17 book series, but it’s a stunning story. And yet, most of their history is what I’ve filled the gaps in rather than her explicit explanation. I haven’t seen you mention this series before and I think you’d love it/I’d love to see your take on it. It’s a gorgeous world she builds, and the characters I still think about.
Just read your "Two Robots" story for the first time. If it's not adapted in the next round of Love, Death and Robots, that will be a crime against humanity.
This seems like a continuation of your Worldbuilding Empires videos. History certainly is complicated! Perhaps your next video could be about worldbuilding different scopes of disasters, ( think TV Tropes' Apocalypse How entry)
![4 Amazing Stories with Soft Worldbuilding [ Lovecraft | Hollow Knight | Nier | Dark Souls ]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/-Vtu0MqEhRs/mqdefault.jpg)
![4 Amazing Stories with Soft Worldbuilding [ Lovecraft | Hollow Knight | Nier | Dark Souls ]](/img/tr.png)
![On Worldbuilding: How do Empires Work? [ Fire Nation l Roman l Mongols ] PART 1](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/51MWp0Hgo90/mqdefault.jpg)
So... this is the worst performing video I've had in a long time, and by a shocking mile, and I don't understand why. Comments/likes/shares for the algorithm are appreciated
Congratulations.
Bro should totally review some anime ur channel seems pretty interesting would love to see ur reaction to attack on titan it's about giants
After i shared my short story i felt exposed. I was naked, downtown for everyone to see. But my feeling of accomplishment and finishing a story clothed me with confidence. Thanks for inspiring me to push and share. Thank you for sharing your creations. Count me as a fan of your work.
@@orsted7273 I mean, it's not really about giants
That's weird bc this is the first notification in a few months that actually got my attention. Your channel is a real treasure chest of insight into the art of storytelling and the craft of worldbuilding.
Imagine the Roman Empire Falling...
*This post was brought to you by Byzantine Empire Gang*
Seriously though, great video. Point 7 is extremely underrated in wider discussions of historical collapse/transformation. The tricky thing is that, in a lot of circumstances (Bronze Age, Ancient Egypt, Rome, Mongol Empire, British Empire) the process is so drawn out that it's hard to actually recognize it as it's happening. Ask 5 historians "When Did Rome Fall" and you'll get 7 answers, ranging from 27 BC to 200s AD to 405 or 410 or 476 AD to 641 AD to 1204 AD to 1453 AD to 1461 AD. There's a case to be made for each of them, depending on how you define "Fall" and "Of Rome". Yet, in every circumstance, life went on afterwards.
Fantasy stories can of course be far more catastrophic with their narratives, since the scales and stakes are bigger, but the example of real-world history still shows that it's more than big explosions and wars.
-B
"Ask 5 historians "When Did Rome Fall" and you'll get 7 answers"
Says the one man who gave 9 different dates.
byzantine gang for life
@@MCjossic Why are we only listing odd numbers here?
@@superheroesandaliens My feeling is a difference of one between two compared items purported to be equal could be viewed as a counting error, typo or similar. A difference of two implies it was deliberate. Greater difference could diminish the connection between the items.
As for for even vs. odd numbers, I'm not sure. Maybe because the starting 5 is a nice number within our decimal system?
Hi osp
One of the most absolutely hilarious and weird bits of Halo is that in the first game Master Chief finds out the most earth shattering, horrifying truths in the universe, the kind of stuff that reframes you whole world view and he basically just rolls with it.
He finds out that the spooky bug aliens he’s been killing are actually eldritch horrors that once consumed nearly all life and that the ring he’s standing on is a giant weapon designed for galactic genocide and his reaction to this all this is to go, ‘huh’ and then just kind of reload his weapon and keep going without a beat missed.
Like he understands the creepy bugs need to die and that the big ring needs to stay turned off but those are basically tactical concerns, he never deals with the implications of this information.
It’s a funny way to deal with the fallen world story structure but it still leaves a lot on the table, stuff that thankfully gets dealt with in later games and books.
That was always a highlight for me of Chief in the Halo series. He doesn't take time to monologue, just keeps rolling on purely focused on the fact there's shit to get done right now. It's saddened by later installments and books where you come to realize the Spartan program Halsey conducted was so traumatic to Chief that he's mostly lost all ability to actually deal with anything and just files it away for later and left him as a man who needs a constant mission objective to just keep going in life. I feel like Infinite really did a good job of highlighting this in his interactions with the new AI and the Pilot.
it fits the lore tbh, hes a spartin his entire existence as long as he's known has been training for/doing the kinda things hes dealing with in the games, cortana funny enough being an ai is there to be the one who actually feels something about all this, also something i actually like about that era of games is lore reasons aside the real reason is game design, master chief is that way cuz its about putting yourself in his shoes not about him, he doesnt need to react cuz its your reaction that its about which makes it more immersive (in a certain kinda way) theres many dif kinds of immersion, and less im watching a movie, he is more relatable as a character if he reacts but its less distracting to putting yourself in that place if the character thats supposed to be you is being overly verbal maybe reacting in ways you wouldn't, its like how people hated having a voiced protagonist in fallout 4, it takes away the part thats in your mind and makes it about a pre determined thing your just watching
That's the product of training.
Any decently trained combatant is not going to ponder and wax philosophy on the earth shattering implications of the conflict he's in while he's taking fire, because doing that *will* get him and his friends killed.
He's going to fire back to neutralize the threat and get him and his friends out of danger.
thats so that the player can do all that and if the typically blank slate protagonist suddenly has an opinion on the matter thats different from your own then its unimmersive.
It's like the crying wojak vs chad meme
Virgin: Explaining the lore of a galaxy spanning empire falling to an eldritch fungus hive mind to the point that they needed to construct the most powerful weapon that could be made in a desperate attempt to wipe them out
Chad: I have to finish the mission
Another aspect that comes up in historical collapses is the cascade. It isn't just one bad thing, but a chain of bad things that make each successive wave worse.
Like, you raise a giant army to deal with a foreign invasion but OH NO, we just hit an economic crisis and now we can't pay the soldiers their promised wages so they start mutinying and raiding which causes a food crisis and on and on.
This reminds me of a youtuber I watch. I mean I don't always agree with him but I did like his point about the end of Rome. He argued that most people in Europe benefited from the Fall of Roman Empire as in its later years it was stagnant and not a great place for all the slaves and peasants while a traditionalist aristocracy held back anything that would threaten their power.
The collapse led to more freedom for each region to develop on its own and how the average peasant got a slightly better life; especially since the later kingdoms and the church moved to eliminate the use of slavery.
That reminds me of one of the reasons Rome collapsed. They started hiring a larger and larger mercenary force in their army and promising payment they couldn't provide. So the mercenaries pillaged them.
@@Nostripe361 Whatifalthist?
@@game_boyd1644 I think that was the one. Again I don't agree with him all the time but its interesting to see another person's viewpoints and predictions even when I disagree.
I'm also a massive alternate history nut.
@@Eluzian86 reason why the Roman became more dependent on foerign troops and mercenaries was largely because the native populations of their core territories suffered massive population decline from natural disasters, plauges, constant warfare and corruption within the social-poltical elite had outgrown the systematic checks meant to keep the corruption managable
I live in Russia so looking at abandoned gargantuan Soviet factories and warehouses gives me a rough idea what post-roman world felt like.
You will have something else to look up to. It appears that the remnants of the Soviet industry that were still working are starting to fall apart too and whatever Russian industry popped up will be destroyed. THat will be another world to look back to in Russia.
@@zaco-km3su Who said most of them were intact in the first place?
I lived in an east german town for a while that was pretty unscathed during the war. It was fascinating to see the layers of history just normally in the city, still in use. Lecture halls from the 1800s, big soviet style housing blocks from East Germany that felt like copy-pasted in, new single family houses on the grounds of a brewery long broken down to just a few bricks in a field of shrubs. If I knew more about architecture I could have probably distinguished even more layers than just pre-DDR, DDR and modern germany.
It's probably a decently accurate comparison here. Especially since after 476 Rome the city experienced massive population decline and the structures were still up, but no-one lived in them.
@@buddermonger2000 Oh yeah. Outside of Moscow my country has a distinct melancholic desolate feel of living on a whale carcass.
Massive infrastructure that falls apart and rots away. Old buildings that have just a few old people working in them. Faded half-destroyed mosaics of brave communist cosmonauts and athletes in random places in some park or an alley. And what still stands (because soviet stuff is ugly but sturdy as hell) is clearly not maintained properly and functions on borrowed time and is being slowly cannibalised for different purposes. And the sharp population decline, especially in smaller cities and rural areas where you see more old people than young really sells the post-apocalyptic vibe.
Tim's gotten enough in the (very good) habit of sharing passages from his stories in videos that I can tell when it's a bit of his writing even before he does the cheeky "reveal". Super excited to get to read more!!
Yeah it's awesome 😅
Same! He already has a recognizable style and that's awesome! Very excited for what's coming next
I’m currently in school to be a paleontologist and it’s honestly exactly like this, seeing a world ruled by ancient creatures that no longer exist. Ancient reptiles that seem to defy the laws of gravity and tower high into the heavens, or enormous marine predators that would inspire the stories of sea monsters had they been alive today. We see these constant trends of a near cosmopolitan distribution of certain species, only for them to eventually disappear. It quite honestly reads like a story if you understand what the rock layers mean. We study the rise and fall of countless species, from periods of unimaginable diversity with creatures so fantastical it seems they should only be able to exist in your wildest dreams, to the greatest biodiversity crises the globe has ever seen. We are missing so many pages from this story, maybe we get a letter or maybe a whole word per page of what should be a 4,600 page book, but we’re still able to piece together the basic storyline. And one of the most fascinating aspects to me personally, is that these were just animals. They weren’t monsters like in Halo or Doctor Who, they bred and fought and ate like animals. They interacted with each other not out of monstrosity but rather necessity. We seem to be in a sort of golden age of paleontology with so many discoveries being made but the reality is that we truly do know so little. We don’t even get the luxury of ancient writing that told us exactly what was going on, as we have to piece it together based on what we know today. Many of these species left no living descendants, and their remains are an enigma that even after decades of research we are still trying to understand. To me, it’s honestly the greatest story never told.
I've recently decided to start working towards becoming a paleontologist and this is one of the reasons why. Also because dinosaurs are just like... cool, y'know
Geology-paleontology fistbump.
To think that greenhouse gases released from contact metamorphism in the Siberian Traps ended up killing off so many species during the Permian.
And then the Triassic came and made a menagerie of weird-ass animals.
And we know all this because of radiometric dating of rocks and fossils.
I like to think that as long as someone is around who's invested in piecing together the stories of the past and telling them to the world (no matter how many faint scraps of information you end up getting) nothing will truly be forgotten or gone. Hopefully, someone will be able to do that for us, one day.
Beautifully said!
As someone who thinks he might want to be a paleontologist, what would you say that job would be like day in and out?
Hey, already saw this on Nebula a few days ago but just wanted to stop by again to show my appreciation; this was a fantastic video, Tim, really enjoyed it!
Thanks man! You do amazing work yourself.
~ Tim
I had no idea you follow Hello Future Me! You two are some of my favorite creators, thank you both so much.
@@HelloFutureMe Speaking of Doctor Who,
as a Fan, you surely have watched Jay Exci's Review of it's Fall?
I watched it on nebula too but here cuz Tim needs us. I found LSOO through nebula and I’m so glad I did. It gets me thinking at times when I don’t give myself enough time to do so
The back story to Horizon is phenomenally good and deeply unsettling. Humanity not going out with a bang but with a whimper, stuck underground on dwindling air and simply waiting for life to be snuffed out.
General Herres putting a rail gun in the hands of every man, woman and child capable of holding one just to keep the machines at bay for a day or two longer.
It felt chillingly plausible and since I've been playing through Forbidden West your points on the resonating memories with the Old Ones echoed to me.
Some tribes in the sequel seek to emulate some drop troops from before the world was destroyed but have to pick up what they can glean through stuttering holograms. They worship the "Ten" who drop into combat and they do the same, leaping into an arena they built to act as their gods did.
There's a genuinely great moment shortly after when the holograms work properly and one of the officers of the J10 task force speaks about their mission. How unity and bravery will bring them success and peace and it comes just in time for the current Chief of the tribes.
The group, after watching, look to their chief and copy the salute they've just seen to their own leader. It was a really great moment in gaming.
And of course "The Ceo wants faster results,"
Props to you on getting your short story published. That's totally something worth being proud of!
I love how b.s-pooping Hello Future me is sometimes... haha... what in the world was that?
What was that with "the whole hard times make strong man and peace-times make you softer
is NONSENSE, hahaha"?
That's kinda how Reality works though? It's kinda fact? Of course it's not absolute, duh,
but its still how the world works. War-Times and Stress-Tests and all such make you strong or dead,
while Peace-Times do a different thing. Thats objectively true and Hello Future Me just dismissed
that as a 'silly Myth'.
@@slevinchannel7589 it might seem like it is, but is it though? How could it be proven? And what does being weak really mean?
It's funny cause the name Toaster is what I give to my oc
09:14 I can think of a few in the context of my country: Namibia (these kinda also count for South Africa)
We Bantu (black) Namibians look at our precolonial history as a time of peace, prosperity and social progress that the "damn violent Europeans" came to disrupt completely, whilst ignoring the wars we fought amongst ourselves, as well as our conquest and slavery of the Khoisan/Khoekhoe people (the OG natives here) and the remarkably violent legal system that existed in our domains.
Afrikaner Namibians see themselves as a fellow native people that was racially inclusive and that did not colonise, but merely migrated into lands that were depopulated by the Zulus during their wars of conquest. According to them, it was the Brits and Germans who were truly racist. This, whilst they ignore the proto-Apartheid legal system they put up in their Boer Republics.
The coloureds view themselves politically as part of what we call the "historically disadvantaged groups", this meaning in all ways but cultural. They, however, often forget that they ended up in southern africa east/north of the cape through the exact same method of migration and foundation of Dutch speaking Republics (the Great and Dorsland Treks) as the Afrikaners. They just pulled the short end of the stick in their relationship with the whites because of their brown skin.
These positions are all based loosely in truth, but are hilariously misconstrued to victimise the own team, which leads to the oddly interesting situation where political disagreement is almost never based on what policy is needed to bring the country forward, but rather on how to interpret history.
As for the German Namibians, they just think of themselves in exactly the same way their ancestors did at the turn of the 20th century, but with a bit of an inclusive "but now we are all namibians, and we all can be germans" twist.
By no means are all of these positions believed by the entirety of the population. They are just rather widespread.
yes!
This is very interesting. Thank you
Shhhhhh there are liberal westerners here and you’re going to upset them with truths. Let’s let continue believing that white people are the center of all historical events good or bad.
Fascinating, we build our world basing it on history, but history is not the past, it’s our interpretation of it, and very often different interpretations collide with each other.
"political disagreement is almost never based on what policy is needed to bring the country forward, but rather on how to interpret history" - ugghhh, this wonderful mindset that has never led to more problems and will totally solve current ones this time, just you wait until we punish the right demographic... yeah. Humans never learn, do they
Tim, I know this video isn’t doing well in the algorithm but just know this video is perfect for both my studies and writing currently. Thanks so much man, you work is invaluable for us writers.
"Cities require a large stable economy to sustain them. In the wake of civilizational collapse, people tend to disperse into the countryside - into smaller communities."
That's not entirely wrong, but i think this paints cities (especially historical/ancient ones) in a romanticized way
Those cities don't just need a "large stable economy", they literally could only be maintained by extracting resources from the countryside.
In Roman-controlled Gaul, for instance, there were networks of cities connected (by roads) to a buuunch of slave plantations (said plantations were owned by elites from the cities of course).
After like 400 AD the population of said cities massively declined sure, but the plantations also disappeared.
Consequently, the serfs of medieval France only had to feed a handful of elites (clergymen, nobles, etc)
There's always a degree of dependency between the cities and the countryside. Even if you remove all violence and coercion, cities (of multiple tiers) will form to facilitate commerce and industry. Towns serving multiple villages; cities serving multiple towns; ports, serving for long distance trade of all sorts. Of course, the modern interdependency is pretty unprecedented - most rural communities would fail today if the cities magically disappeared. Of course, many would still recover eventually as long as they have a bit of luck and a lot of brain, and as long as the climate can sustain them. But that's also a story from history - climate collapse is nothing new even for humans.
And there was a decline in the cities eh side the trade links they needed to survive broke down when the Roman Empire collapsed and the Germanic tribes founded their smaller kingdoms.
NGL, just wanted to say that I was reading comments as I was watching the video and I got to your comment just as the line cam up, so I got to read your comment as a caption in the video! What are odds? Especially because its the first quote I've seen in this video's comment section.
In Flanders (Dutch-speaking part of Belgium), we idolise the medieval era, as Flemish cities in that time were among the richest in Europe. A lot of people also idolise the 'Guldensporenslag' (Battle of the Golden Spurs) in this time period, where 'Flemish' farmers and workers 'defeated' 'French' knights. All of this ignores the fact that 1) 'Flemish' cities would have thought of themselves as Flemish in this period, but mostly identified by their local county or city, at most maybe the concept of a 'Diets' culture (Diets='language of the people', the Old Dutch word for Old Dutch), 2) that the Battle of the Golden Spurs wasn't a 'glorious victory over the French-speakers', but rather a small-time rebellion against the French king's taxes and the elite.... which also only won one major battle, and was squashed a year after that battle, 3) that it was still the fucking medieval age with all that entails.
Meanwhile, Wallonia (French-speaking part of Belgium) idolises pre-ww1 Belgium. They believe Belgium was more united in this era, and long back to the time in which we were a major industrial and scientific power (relative to our size) in Europe, with our coal mines providing a lot of wealth and jobs. This ignores that the Flemish were treated as effectively second-grade citizens in this era (also the main reason for our modern political divide, though not the only one), that the Flemish movement was already born in this era, and, y'know, it was the Industrial Revolution and all that entails.
oh hello didn't expect to see you here
@@GROMALOCARIS hi, amazing you found this comment to begin with
22:55 The bronze age collapse
23:06 The bronze age collapse
23:23 The bronze age collapse
23:43 The bronze age collapse
23:50 The bronze age collapse
24:07 The bronze age collapse… again
Man the bronze age collapse was rough
A lot of people have always admired ancient Sparta for their supposed bravery and military discipline and camaraderie between men. they look at Thermopylae and see something that they wish to emulate.
When Sparta was an oppressive quasi dual-monarchy that had chattel slavery, enforced conscription for children to become soldiers and a whole host draconian laws that prevented its citizens from pursuing interests against the will of the state.
what do you mean by draconian laws? As far as I remember the laws were rather normal in comparison with other empires at the time.
@@bluebird587 I believe he aims at the idea that the Homoioi, who were Sparta's actual citizens and the only people with any political influence, weren't allowed to pursue any other careers outside of warfare and politics. The City state would give them land with attached "servants" (Sparta's system wasn't exactly chattel slavery but looks vaguely like a hybrid of serfdom and ancient slavery) that would allow them to feed themselves so they wouldn't need to ever work the land. While there are plenty of things one could praise Spartan culture for, individual liberties is nowhere to be seen on that list, but to be fair that was the case pretty much everywhere else back then.
@@bluebird587 Look up how the Spartans treated the Helots. Pretty much all of their warrior stuff was to keep their slave population (the majority of people) down. It is somewhat contentious, but some contemporary historians even said they had yearly "The Purge" style hunts where they declared war on their slaves in order to kill the ones that might pose a threat.
@@Jacob-yg7lz Though those "contemporary" historians were either foreign (mostly athenian) and not exactly trying to portray Sparta fairly. Or Plutarch who wasn't actually a contemporary and was actively trying to make Spartans look like a pinnacle of warrior morality. The idea of Spartan kids having to kill Helots is widely contested by Historians, and often discarded entirely.
@@teineeva7868 Yeah that is what I was asking about. These living conditions were hard for sure, but not exactly under draconian law.
Throughout this video, I'm constantly reminded of the "Blame!" manga written by Tsutomu Nihei. It's entirely set in the leftovers of a society that through their own mistake, eradicate themselves. It's wonderfully illustrated and would very much recommend it to anyone interested in this genre, even if manga isn't exactly your thing.
Is it ever explained what really happened to civilization in Blame? I tried reading it many times but always got stuck around the middle...
@@neutronshiva2498wiki has a good explanation
@neutronshiva2498
You know that thought experiment about how if you gave a perfect A.I. instructions to optimise paper clip production, it'd eventually strip-mine the whole solar system since it only cares about making paper clips & there's no limits in the parameters you gave it? Basically that but with civil/environmental engineering
@gingermcgingin4106 adding to you great response:
As the city grew and expanded in all dimensions the systems to remove vermin life came to see humans as things to be exterminated. Good stuff.
Answering your question
Here in brazil we had an awful military dictatorship from 1964 to 1985 and it was full of censorship and people being exiled or "gone missing"
Nowadays some people are saying that it wasn't a dictatorship it was just a military regimen and that those times were better....
same in argentina, and i think almost all latin america
Same in the philippines, many of the ppl, especially some of the younger generations, thinks that the Marcos regime was a golden age of my country. But they always overlook the fact that many people were kidnapped, raped, imprisoned without fair trial during those times, and that the Marcoses stole millions from the Filipinos.
Same in Cuba. My family lived through Fidel Castro’s dictatorship and barely made it out alive, but a lot of young (mostly college aged) Americans I know keep trying to tell me it was a good thing.
Any post-communist country provides great examples too. People really don't like to hear how fragile civilization is; it's one of the painful thoughts that gets pushed as far away as possible.
Same in Chile here a surprising chunk of the population thinks that Pinochet did good and totally didn’t kill 10.000 people and disappeared more than 50.000. And their argument was that Allende had a huge economic ressesion while in office, but failing to see that that recession was because of US SANCTIONS!!.
The only thing that Pinochet did was hand over all drinking water is private and the corporations are moving rivers out of where people need them but where the avocado farms are.
9:15 I thought of, fittingly, Caesar's conquest of Gaul. Sure, ol' Julius was a genius when it came to both strategy and tactics, but it's hard to argue that the aftermath was anything less than a cultural genocide of the Gauls. Unless you count that one little village on the coast of Armorica.
Indeed, one little village holds out against the invaders. And life is not easy for the Romans who garrision the camps of Totorum, Aqurium, Laudanum and Compedium.
@@crimsonquill4255 Huh, is that what they're called in english?
@@alexpalex-banana Those are indeed the names in the english translations
One fallen civilisation that interests me is the one from One Piece. Oda has been writing for 25 years and dripfeeding tiniest scraps of info the entire time about this Kingdom that has been the most fascinating case of “what the fuck happened” that somehow he’s been able to keep people interested for over 1000 chapters now. Somehow he still manages to make chapters that almost once a week that leave you like “what does this mean?”
One aspect I really enjoy about One Piece's "Void Century," is the World Government's near zealous attempts to hide any and all information about it. While there efforts are over dramatic, it's not unlike the efforts that past and current societies do with their own "historical blemishes."
Japan doesn't like talking about its involvement of WWII, and certain parts of the USA don't even talk about the Korean and Vietnam War.
@@J-manli Oh, oh, and the Soviets with the Soviet-Finnish war. It was kept under the rug until the USSR fell.
problem is even now at the current chapter we barely know anything about it which is annoying - but joy boy and sun god nika make up for it for now
That passage from Toaster and Motherboard was some of the best imagery I’ve heard a while. It so perfectly evoked the feeling of irrevocable loss that ancient civilizations aim for. Great work!
Halo's lore is insane. I wish they would visit another part of the timeline in the games. Like a game where we play during Ancient Humanity's war with the Forerunners.
Bungie does insane scifi lore so well :)
I went to university for creative writing and graduated with a bachelors degree in it several years ago. I say this because your channel is orders of magnitude better than any of the classes I took. Giving much better advise, in a much more understandable way, with much better examples than anything I got from my professors. I’d say you’ve helped improve my writing far more than my college ever did without even looking at it.
Also I’ve fallen in love with anvils writing tools but I do wish that they would add a map making feature as well.
Inkarnate is great for map building 🙂
0:52 brings to mind that old joke... 'if you're *really* a Goth, where were you when they sacked Rome?'
HZD is my favourite game ever. Read and listened to all the logs I could find and spent hours roaming around the world without doing quests for the fun of it. I took my sweet time to finish it
You have no idea how much I needed this in order to get past a particularly difficult writing hurdle. Having a fallen civilization as a major component and not being able to properly flesh it out was getting to me because I hadn't properly thought out how the collapse took place. Its too easy to think one or two different things were the cause but it was the section on "collapse is complicated" that put everything into a greater sense of perspective for me. Thank you so much for these great resources you make freely available. Deepest appreciation!
You probably haven't even played it, but I would've loved to hear you talk about the Orokin Empire from Warframe. They ruled for thousands if not tens of thousands of years, with the same rulers throughout via immortality, but as you uncover more of the lore it becomes more and more clear that the empire was always going to fall, they kept having to resort to more and more extreme measures to keep themselves afloat (the one that eventually ended them was breaking their own rule against sentient AI, which rebelled as soon as it realized that they'd destroy the next star system just as much as they did the current one).
And it also becomes clear that every problem that is currently facing the system has its roots in them. The Grineer army were originally a race of slave clones meant to do menial labor. The Corpus are a cult of greedy opportunists who took the opportunity to try and fill the power vacuum left after their fall, the infested are a zombie-like plague let loose on the system as a means to combat the sentients, who were the aforementioned AI race. They deserved to fall, and much harder than they did, but the system, even thousands of years later, is still suffering from their actions.
A wholehearted +1 on this.
I don't enjoy actually playing the game, but the setting is fascinating!
@@SymbioteMullet 100% agree with you. The game can be fun but the overall landscape is pretty fantastic
Ahhhh, Warframe lore. It's really great stuff. And yeah every single BIT of Orokin history is a huge "They really did not know the meaning of the word HUBRIS" type story. Seriously, everything wrong with the Origin system can be traced back to them. :(
And then there's the New War: The Orokin way managing to fuck the system over one more time.
imagine just how crazy it’ll become after Duviri Paradox though
Just how much this man has taught me is incredible. Tim Hickson, Brandon Sanderson, and JP from Terrible Writing Advice- Thank you for teaching me how to make my story function
Answering your question: Ancient Sparta, a society of emotionally traumatized, ideologically indoctrinated child soldiers leading a slave society of staggering proportions (the American South, Ottoman and Byzantine Empires, ancient Athens and Rome, all slave societies, had 25-40% of their population enslaved. Ancient Sparta had around 90%). All of that was in service of developing a military tradition that wasn’t any better than the people around them - the win/loss statistics for Spartan warriors is pretty much equal to contemporaries in Athens, Corinth, Thebes, etc. Yet Sparta is seen as this prototypically “manly” and “frugal” and “heroic” culture, to the point that this terminology is used in the Halo franchise.
Check out “A Collection of Unmitigated Pedantry,” a blog by a professional historian, who breaks down the myth of Sparta.
That blog also has a series of posts called "the Fremen Mirage", which breaks down the "hard times create strong men" idea mentioned in this video. It also has a series of posts on how bad the fall of the Roman Empire was, which seems particularly relevant for this video.
no, there’s a difference between saying what happened at thermopalye was heroic and saying sparta was heroic.
an i have never seen one person call sparta frugal or even manly.
in fact sparta was very much so a female dominated society to the point that other greeks actually found it offensive.
@@draconisthewyvern3664 modern he-man Sparta worshipers tend to leave out the part of Spartan women leadership
Not to mention helots were treated fucking horribly. The *only* thing that was even somewhat admirable about Sparta compared to their contemporaneous city-states was its treatment of women. Which is ironically the opposite narrative the Sparta fanboys would have construed.
I dont think the byzantine empire, a Christian empire had slaves
I recommend "The Secrets Of The Immortal Nicholas Flamel" for its spin on fallen civilizations because in that series there is not just one fallen civilization (or to be more precise species) but 4 (Earthlords, Ancients, Archons, and Elders), and maybe even more (I don't remember if it was ever implied that there were more, but I think it may have been at one point). It gives off the idea that The Earth is stuck in this cycle of power that is always changing. Humans are just the latest to be the dominant species.
Another twist that it gives us is that the technology is ancient, but not the magic, the magic is actually very recent since it was discovered by The Elders, who are the species that ruled before the humans.
Truly awful time of history that people idolize: The industrial revolution. Most people had horrible lives and died of rampant disease. In early 1800's London people were dying from disease faster than they were being born. The only reason the population didn't decline was because rural life was worse and people were flooding into the city from the countryside.
The Industrial Revolution and its consequences have been a disaster for the human race
@@bigjen8238 maybe you should do something about it. I don’t know what. But go out with a *bang*
@@bigjen8238 that's a bad take. Sure, we damaged the environment to a whole new scale, but the technological advancements are not to be snuffed at. Before the industrial revolution, most people would never leave their hometown. Our knowledge experienced a huge boom following it and the progress made afterwards means that people no longer have to work from dusk till dawn to obtain their necessities
@@brainderp808 The OP was making a reference to the Unabomber.
@@gusovici "and the progress made afterwards means that people no longer have to work from dusk till daen to obtain their necesseties"
Is this true?
You know, above the actual content of your videos(which are great), I love hearing your little comments about the great things that are happening in your life.
How excited you are to have published a book make me feel good to. I hope you never feel bad about sharing good news, like a lot of people do.
I'm surprised you didn't bring up The Wheel of Time.. a good example where it isn't old technology that the old civilisation left behind, but a fantastical magic system that is in tatters and only understood in pieces.
Keep in mind that the magic system was firmly integrated into that old technology. Angreal, saangreal, and terangreal are all devices that people forgot how to make, and many of those devices survived the Breaking.
@ToaOnichu Yes absolutely, and the angreal, sa'angreal, etc. are treated very much as relics from a bygone era. No one knows how they are made, or what half of them do.
Also I'd add to my original comment that in WoT they would have had pieces or husks of machines, cars, etc. lying around. I think someone references a Mercedes logo at one point?
So in these books there is both old technology and old magic that is lost.
If you liked that, you should check out the book he mentioned, The Fifth Season, it’s an incredibly heavy book in terms of content, but it’s got so many cool ideas and it’s magic system is incredible
Its just that much of the losses of magic made no sense in the context of the story. I mean, a couple of village girls and a princess independently rediscovered and invented more magic than an order of many thousands of mages managed to rediscover in tree thousand years. If it was that easy then it would have all been rediscovered by now.
And a lot of the lost magic are things that every single mage in the age of legends knew how to do. Which means that the founders of the white towers were probably just wilders that taught themselves and had no connection to real Aes Sedai other than what they read in books.
@@chuckwood3426 they had Moghedien teach them. She lived in the world before it was broken and knew ancient secrets first hand.
Actually I think the best reference for the final moments of a collapse (largely because because it's well documented) isn't so much Rome, as the Soviet Union. A very quick, near overnight collapse which was the culmination of decades of lead up. Fundamentally collapsing when it's member states effectively said, "ehh, this isn't worth it" the status quo stopped being worth maintaining and the empire disbanded or collapsed.
I really want to see more post post apocalypse worlds.
You should check out Wheel of Time if you haven't already.
There's quite a few out there
@@judeconnor-macintyre9874 I don't think there's enough of a highlight on past cultures in WoT to really count as a post post apocalypse world
@@HQofrandom Well, it is set in a post-apocalypse Earth, and a bunch of characters from that golden civilization come back and are major characters.
as long as it's not actually ours I have to see, I'm in. but also apocalyptic stories, as in during such a fall. always seeing things only after the events gets weird
As a huge fan of halo, it feels so good to see you discuss the forerunners and the wonderous feeling of discovery that i felt when i first played halo ce. Amazing video as always Tim!
I don't know how to describe the primal/tech aesthetic in this world but I am obsessed with it. The high tech metalic shapes mixed with furs is just *chefs kiss*
I love listening to you breaking down stories and how they work. I’m almost always introduced to new stories that I can’t wait to read, watch or play. This specific topic makes me think of one of my favourite books called “At Winter’s End” by Robert Silverberg that utilizes this same concept of fallen civilization but at exactly the point where tribes first find the ruins. He really challenges what we define humanity to be and the validity of any one “rights” to inheritance.
A Canticle for Leibowitz is the earliest example of this genre I know of. I read it right before I got into Foundation and was struck by how similar they are despite the completely disperate worldviews of their authors.
That’s because they both draw from the same source; the fall of the Roman Empire.
You’re a published fiction writer!!! I’m so happy for you :) your excitement was palpable- Your writing sounds amazing. I’ll have to go read it! 😊❤️
Dude, I really love your eloquent and dramatic presentation style. It really draws me in to your videos. You should be a writer. 😉
I absolutely adore this storytelling trope. This and your video on abandoned places are two of my favourites.
Rome fell slowly. Painfully.
The best stories aren't always slow and painful, are they?
It's why I love Destiny's Universe. It's just an entire story of Fallen Civilizations, chasing hope across the stars...
Heh. Fallen.
Ah, fellow Guardian, I have been looking for you in the comment section. I really think Tim hasn't been exposed to Destiny's universe, which is a shame in my opinion, I believe he would like it.
The destiny universe is a tragic one were right and wrong might as well be the same thing. I do hope he gets into the destiny lore sooner rather then later with witch queen coming soon. I do hope he focuses on the Elisnkis fall because that's the best part of the lore in my opinion.
@@PunctualBerryBoy Its absolutely the most human aspect of the lore. Different than the chilling Books of Sorrow, than the tale of the beginning the Darkness told us. Instead, imagine a civilisation from so far away, cast in opposition to humanity, enraged by something neither we nor they could have changed a thing about, yet if we look closely we find the same humanity resting within them. The Season of the Splicer gave us a huge developement that plays into the world very nicely.
I get chills every time I think about Destiny's lore.
@@hyruleemblemier to build upon the destiny lore even further the fact the elisnki had a golden age that surpassed humanities and the fact they could fight against the darkness without the travlers direct aid is insane. Then bring up the fact that the kell of kells during that time could fight Oryx a hive god solo and not get one shotted instantly only goes to show how lucky humanity really is to still even exist. When compared to humanity the travler should have stood and fought with the eliskni rather then fled without even trying.
Huge congratulations on your published stories, Tim! Your videos have been so, so valuable to me (and I've now got both of your Worldbuilding books too.) Glad your fiction is also getting the recognition it deserves.
How convenient. I needed to worldbuild a fallen civilization for D&D.
Same here, very good timing 😁
Does anyone else feel really unnerved whenever they hear of real-world civilizations that fell? Especially when it looked they'd last a lot longer? 😟
Nowadays I feel inspired by that, not unnerved. Things can change very quickly if the narratives of the people under their rule change at such a pace
It's worth looking at the Fall of Civilisations podcast for some extended looks at a number of historical civilisations that fell - some of which I'd never even heard of.
This is the core of fantasy and sci fi: showing things that are entirely impossible in our world in a way that shows our world itself in more detail than any lens ever could.
This topic reminds me of how FFXIV: Endwalker took this concept up to eleven.
Spoilers for Endwalker, obviously:
Fallen civilizations was nothing new to the world of Eorzea. Be it the Allagan Empire, the nation of Nym, the magical societies of Amdapor and Mhach, and of course, Amarot. But by the latter part of Endwalker's story, this went even further by showing that the whole universe was a graveyard of fallen civilizations. They all tried to achieve the perfect society, to eliminate all life's woes, but every attempt failed and eventually doomed them all. Even when a society achieved that paradise where death and sorrow was no more, they lost all reason to keep on living, so they all committed suicide.
Since the main characters fought for the cause of a better world, this revelation was the ultimate challenge. A whole dead universe asked them "Why go on?"
From Mhach and Amdapor, to Beladiah and to Sil'dih. And from the people escaping the flood that settled in the North Empty to create Sharlayan and those that stayed on the peaks of what would become Ala Mhigo. This game is such a Masterclass is worldbuilding ancient, far gome civilizations and the movement of peoples when they great powers fall, I can help but love it too
I keep hearing about final fantasy 14. Should I play it? Or is it like an MMO that requires all your time.
@@vullord666 I would recommend it over most MMOs. It's the only subscription-based MMO I return to. It's one of the best options if you want to be able to play casually without being penalized for skipping your dailies or not bumrushing the endgame. However... free trials are currently disabled due to congestion issues after the latest big update, so if you're not okay with going ahead and buying in for a month or so, you may want to wait.
@@vullord666 For the story, for the gameplay and for many other things - you should, but you'll have to wait. There's been issues with queues ever since Endwalker launch, to the point that devs had to disable free trial registrations and new purchases just so the people who are already in could play.
As for the MMO part, there's plenty of stuff to do, but almost none of it is needed to just progress the story. Actually, if you are playing a single class then you'll even get overleveled at some point.
@@orrusfellin5150 The sales are back, and the queue times are not that bad, tbh. There are servers that are still congested and can't accept new characters so if you have friends playing in them, it would be better to wait. And yeah, the free trial is still not back, sadly.
this is so freakin helpful not just for writing but for how we view history and our current society thank you so much
Hey Tim, as to elite mismanagement, can we ever witness society collapse without it? It may well be true that no complex society collapses without at least the appearance of elite mismanagement, but I suspect it’s also true that the emphasis on elites by history distorts the picture.
Just as an example, we have almost no writings regarding the views of commoners and businesspeople throughout Roman antiquity, and hardly anything besides Cicero from the Republican era. That’s a wildly distorted view of society that likely overemphasizes the importance of the Roman Senatorial class.
Almost by definition, if a society collapses, the people running it screwed up, but that doesn’t mean that a different group of elites could have saved it, or that one simple reform would have altered the system, or that if there were just a little more equality the elites could have better understood the common person and their struggles.
Elite failure is always the actual cause, but I rather doubt it is even usually the proximate cause.
I have to agree. I think elite mismanagement might be the same sort of thing as "I always find my keys in the last place I look" - it's the last place you look because once you find them, you stop looking! Similarly, if the elites were doing a good job, society wouldn't collapse. (Or at least, it would take a HUGE catastrophe to destroy it.)
And what better way to phrase "elite mismanagement" than "weak men"? In a large portion of collapses, the collapse could have been prevented had the "elites" been willing to do something that they would find difficult.
@@SirSpence99 Well, for starters, many societies collapse not because the elites are “weak” but because they are too exclusive, too stuck in traditional beliefs, or otherwise unwilling to change in ways that have little to do with weakness or strength.
Much European states collapsed-or nearly collapsed-after World War 1 not because they were weak, but because elite overemphasis on “martial values” (yes this was real) led to widespread anger and revolt. Elite empathy is often as or more important than elite strength.
@@ZeteticPhilosopher Again, how is the unwillingness to change and adapt to a new environment *not* weakness?
@@SirSpence99 I think if you want to call Spartans and Victorians weak, then you're using a different definition of weakness than the rest of us.
Strong elites can create a weak society, and weak elites can create a strong society.
Hey Tim, just letting you know that even if your video doesn’t get as much views as it usually does, we still do appreciate the hard work and effort that you put into everything you do. I loved the passage of writing you shared, and this video was also very interesting! :))
When you saw Halo, were you blinded by its majesty?
The tear in my eye at the sound of that theme song... The emotion that can't really be described, but somehow I have faith that you will be able to explain it.
Congrats on getting published mate, you deserve the hell out of it. No idea why this video isn’t performing either, the On Writing etc series is my favourite content of yours.
Fallen civilizations are one of my favorite elements of fictional worlds, and I am very excited for this video. Fallen civilization forms the core of my own science fiction universe set in the far, far, far future.
something about this video and the abandoned places video you did 5 months ago really resonates with me, just in the way you speak of remnants and how, even when the great fall, theres always a mark and pieces of what happened after. theres something really stunning in realizing that we are, really, just a fraction of a percent of time, and yet there are people we are still learning about thousands of years after they were forgotten. i cant wait to see what other videos you make that get me to see the world just a bit differently, and i am absolutely going to get those short stories you mentioned when i have the funds. thank you for another awesome video, and have a wonderful day!
The Rings from Stargate where buried by the Humans after a revolution and an overthrow. Which still doesn't make sense as later on they tell us that the Greek gods and Incan gods where all Goa'uld. Apparently they where making war with either eachother or another species
edit: just remembered, only 2 stargates on earth. and stargates where made by the Ancients, which are apparently human precursors somehow?
The earth ones are but he's on about the rings everywhere. Almost every planet they go to the gate is out in the open and not guarded or barely guarded even on Goa uld planets. An advanced civilization would surely realise the importance of them and guard them, put an iris on them like we did or put them somewhere important.
Three gates. One in Egypt, one in the Siberia, and one in Antarctica (though I don't think the Goa'uld knew about that one). Other gates are usually either immovable (or difficult to move) ancient monuments or the whole world is controlled and secured, making any part of the world as secure as any other. There is also a problem of putting a portal (including stargate) in the basement of a fortress.
First it introduces a weak point in that fort's defensive strategy and if taken from the inside via said portal it could provide a ready made beachhead for the invaders. Putting the portal in an open field that can instead be defended against makes sense in this context. Especially if the options of heavy weapons, or aerial or orbital bombardment, are an option to stop further action of those exiting the gate. If a contingency is to bombard the area around the gate, one won't want the gate inside an important structure. Secondly, given how critical the gates (and portals in some other stories) are to trade, bulk transport including the use of large (sometimes flying) vehicles, and transport of personnel, it makes sense to reduce the logistical issues with accessing what is already a bottleneck. Having no or minimal obstacles to dance around in the immediate vicinity greatly helps with this.
One solution could be to make a "ring fort" like what Julius Caesar did when simultaneously besieging the Gauls and defending against attacks from their reinforcements. In addition to defending the gate, this could provide a large clear space around the portal that allows for both a "killing field" for incursions, a wide area of movement for staging logistics, and the option of multiple access points through the ring fort to reduce bottlenecks.
As to why literally no one else other than humans of the tau'ri made a physical iris to block the gate. That, I can only guess can be explained by a "lack of imagination". At least the Atlantians used an energy shield in a similar manner, but I think only the gate in Atlantis was equipped with one.
@@rhodsym643 I think that leaving the Stargates out in the open was the optimal way to do so in the majority of planets we saw. Most of the Goa'uld worlds we saw were slave worlds, where the people thought of the stargate as thing where the gods came through and had no idea how to use it, and being out in the open meant they could get easy access to slaves and resources. However there were more fortress worlds where they did put defenses in (the one with Anubis's super soldiers, and probably Sokar's homeworld).
The Wraith's use is a little more complicated, but I think the Wraith want the humans to use the Stargate. It speeds up the population growth by allowing trade between planets, the Wraith want worlds to industrialize, as that causes a population boom that gives the Wraith the most amount of food with the lowest risk, plus the caretakers can still send their darts through the stargates to get the occasional meal during their hibernation.
@ckl There were two gates on Earth, the one they found in Egypt and was the main Stargate they used for the series, they found a second one in Antarctica, then when they lost the first Stargate, when Thor beamed it onto his ship, the Russians found it and moved it to Siberia, where it stayed until the Antarctic one was destroyed, and the Russians lent the SGC their stargate.
extremely late but goodness me this video was exceptionally well produced just like they've all been of late. thoroughly enjoyed it and thanks as always for making such informative content available for free
I fucking LOVE ancient civilizations in stories! They're one of my favorite things, the more mysterious and possibly even mystic, the better!
I wish I could give each individual video you've created more than just one like. They're so well done, thorough, and inspiring. Thank you for all of your work!
Congratulations on getting your short stories published it's awesome that your work is out there.
Such perfect time as always - Was brainstorming with a friend who wanted to make a DnD Campaign based on investigating the fall of a whole Kingdom and this was really informative while being your signature form of entertaining ^^
Just as I'm about to revisit Horizon this pops up. Magnificent.
Do it homie ✌️
Yea dude. Forbidden west comes out today. This was scheduled
I absolutely adore learning and thinking about stories and the writing and art surrounding them in more complex and different ways like this. Thank you for what you do, you're amazing at it.
pre-british Ireland for me, I tend to glorify it myself - Irish language and culture was at its peak and the ruins and castles scattered are cool to visit, the Brehon laws were also surprisingly modern
There was a definite decrease in quality of life in the next 800 years with the whole subjugation but I tend to ignore how divided the provinces were and the constant war
12:25 That's amazing! You've mentioned and uses parts of your own story before in this series and now it's being published in a real magazine. Congratualations so much! :)
Just started playing Forbidden West, already the ruin scream to me that the civilization the old ones created was incredible and it makes me want to dive in deeper.
But.. We live in it...
@@Soundwave1900 yeah but not 50 years in the future
@@onesith4528 fair enough
Great video as always! Fallen civilizations have such a particular type of melancholy beauty to them, and this captured that so well.
Also, people can check out the Fall of Civilizations podcast if they want to learn more about how historical societies have collapsed
I was waiting for this since you mentioned how Good HZD's Worldbuilding is in a past vedio, hope you'll do one for horizon forbidden west as well!
Hey i noticed that too I was really hide for this video 😁
same!! and the fact that it was the game of choice of his 24 hr stream this year too haha
Funny thing, the average peasant didn’t really noticed the fall of the Roman Empire when it happened
One of the greatest sadness of its fall, it’s that no one really notice it
looking at the landscape of Horizon and hearing the most famous Halo tune gives me all kinds of feels.
Really sad the algorithm forgot this one, this is a really good one.
“But it makes a good story, doesn’t it?” Oh it feels good to be back.
I loved that cinematic opening!
Man you never disappoint, every video you do is SO jam-packed with important and interesting information, and every time I watch one, my mind constantly gravitates towards my own worlds, how can I apply this to them. I figured that was kind of your goal so you might be happy to hear that XD
I think this traces back to the Abandoned Places video, SPECIALLY on the emotional connection of the character section, the way the people develop pieces of culture and mythology around ruins, and how the revelation of what this ruin really was affected the character on a personal level can be applied to the character exploring the remnants of past stories, families long gone and experiences frozen in time… only on a much, much greater scale.
I love your breakdowns of various aspects of world and story building.
I'm a budding author trying to figure out how to get the world in my head into something others can enjoy
Do not forget how amazing you are and that so many of us not only appreciate and thirst after your videos and words, but it drives us in our endeavors be that within understanding life and society, but also in our creative endeavors.
Athens, Sparta, and the Industrial Revolution were the first that came to mind for me. Great video, really gave me a lot to think about.
I personally love this type of setting. I just get a kick out of tribes living in ancient stadiums, wearing crowns made out of PVC piping and thinking they are holy artifacts.
Especially when it's unclear what happened to the old civilization. That part of the story in Horizon:ZD really did a lot for me, I loved finding out what happend.
Great video.
First of all congratulations on getting the short stories published! That's a great accomplishment. I saw on Instagram that this was a bad performing video, and I get your disappointment, it seems to have all the timing and themes to do well. The thing is, sometimes this things aren't predictable, but the video was great, so (if you can) don't doubt the quality of your content, and don't give up please!
I think my favorite TH-cam video, by Matt Coville, details the Tolkienistic idea of dead or dying empires, and the post-apocalyptic nature of almost all fantasy media. It's that video alone that inspired me to create a new setting based on a previous Pathfinder campaign of mine where the universe was thrown into a massive cosmic war with the Great Old Ones.
Entire nations and land masses obliterated, decrepit ruins of old and advanced projects by stronger and bolder nations that are no longer. Prophesized empires beaten and crippled. Heroes sitting quietly on thrones now buried in new bureaucracy. Very fun stuff.
Loved this video too, lol.
Halo is my favorite franchise in the world. I absolutely love the world building in it. The total sense of mystery, and awww that the Fallen Forerunners. The Flood the ultimate adversary of pure consumption, as a "foil" to the Forerunners. foil is a bad word I Mirror image. Both galactic "empires" seeking to advance their land and take over the universe, both so similar yet nothing alike. Then in a last-ditch effort the Forerunners decide to stalemate. And you just enter a world naive to all of this while in another galactic genocide. I love the religious aspects of Halo. I love the idea of "The Mantle of Responsibility" And the Precursors prior to Forerunners. I could go on forever with Halo.
I like to keep in mind that collapses rarely happen over night…there are often hints of rot before the collapse, then it takes some time to collapse leaving perhaps sections of the collapsing civilization untouched by the collapse longer than others (meaning different impact), before the collapse is eventually “over with” and we have the post-collapse world.
That period of Collapse is an intersting period to pluck out post-collapse concepts and myths.
And don’t forget that there will always be those who can benefit from a collapse/crisis and these are in the very least an interesting factor to keep in mind when building myths and stories about the collapse
One of the things I eternally find interesting is how much succeeding generations borrowed from the Latin half of the Roman empire even before the Renaisance. Money, wights, measures, governing structures, religion . . .
You've got to remember, the classical civilization lived in the shadow of previous civilizations of which only Egypt survived but about who they knew very little.
It seems to me that that discussion of civilization collapse comes to two things. One: an outside pressure times Two: an internal inability to to make effective decisions. I can see how that would happen.
I'm reminded of the the Web Comic Stand Still Stay Silent which takes place less than a century after our civilization collapses.
Congratulations on getting published! Good!
It wasn’t really borrowed from the Romans, becuase the people in those kingdoms were Romans, at least the majority of the population. French and Spanish and Italian didn’t replace or borrow from Roman culture, they evolved from it.
@@baneofbanes
What about Germany? Scandinavia? Iceland?
Does that include the English?
Thank you so much for your hard work that went into this video, Tim and Alex! This topic is very close to my heart now as I’m working on a story in this theme. Every one of your videos I watched has inspired me to really give myself a chance at writing, sharing my stories as opposed to coming up with them and letting them die in my desk drawers. Can’t wait to read your short story!
I feel like you would love the game Kenshi! It takes place not after just one fallen empire but two fallen empires. It has one of my most favorite world building of all time and is second to only Skyrim in my eyes. It feels like the world is alive and there’s nothing your character can really do to change the world as a whole. It’s also one of the few games to encourage your character to be kind of a bad person hehe
Random note on worldbuilding. If you have a bunch of civilizations on a timeline but you realize stuff just doesnt line up right, just say there were differing accounts. Adds depth and believability and it's a lot easier than actually fixing it
As for an awful past time idolized today? The Mongol conquests. Sure, Genghis Khan was a military genius who unified the Mongol tribes and then all of Asia, opening up the silk road and ushering a golden age of art and craftmanship - while in the process killing more people than anyone ever except maybe Mao and Stalin [in a world that had only 500 million people], and scarred asian civilizations so badly that the trauma still has repercution on their modern politics.
Not to mention that he pretty much brought the collapse of the Middle East and ended its golden age, which the consequences are also visible today.
Tim your worldbuilding videos are quite literally a lifesaver for an epic fantasy writer like myself, keep up the amazing work!
I recommend watching the Fall of Civilizations podcast. It is very interesting material if you want to learn more about the history of cultures which are no longer around. The Bronze Age collapse one is a good place to start.
I see you are a man of culture.
I love the media examples you picked for this one! They really highlight both the commonalities and the wide range of differences that you can find between stories/worlds of this kind.
In my book, I have a fallen civilization, so this is going to be very helpful. However, with my thing, it's that the civilization has just recently fallen when another civilization destroyed it. However, the civilization was around for so long, it had basically already fallen several times before it was finally destroyed.
I love the world of horizon, one because it is so unique in turns of post apocalyptic, but also because I live in that aria. I go to ruin so and so and I’m like, “oh, I have been here.”
Really interesting analysis, thanks for your hard work coming up with these topics, I'll go ahead and read Panstellar.
One significant point that I'd like to chime in with - it's never one crisis. Problems that shouldn't be crises on their own become such because structures have been weakened by the last (potentially still ongoing) one and the problems snowball.
The oil wars lead in to the water wars and society collapses by inches, or the paychic awakenings are uncontrolled because of the war against the Men of Iron at the same time as the warp storms intensify, or the pandemic hits while the financial crisis is still ongoing just as the first concrete effects of climate change are being oh hello...
22:30 Star Wars Jokes never gets old. Just like the younglings……
Congrats on being published! Love your videos, they’ve helped me so much with my writing and they’ve gotten so much better over the last few years ❤️
I just finished a series which does this beautifully, but I’m very much a fantasy rather than sci fi. Realm of The Elderlings by Robin Hobb is a beautiful exploration of a fallen civilisation and you only get a hint of it by the end of the 17 book series, but it’s a stunning story. And yet, most of their history is what I’ve filled the gaps in rather than her explicit explanation. I haven’t seen you mention this series before and I think you’d love it/I’d love to see your take on it. It’s a gorgeous world she builds, and the characters I still think about.
Just read your "Two Robots" story for the first time. If it's not adapted in the next round of Love, Death and Robots, that will be a crime against humanity.
This seems like a continuation of your Worldbuilding Empires videos. History certainly is complicated!
Perhaps your next video could be about worldbuilding different scopes of disasters, ( think TV Tropes' Apocalypse How entry)
As a Banks fan (see my username), Excession is probably my favourite of his Culture novels. Always cool to see other folks who've enjoyed his work.