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Bowers & Wilkins 803 D3 vs MartinLogan ESL 13A | Does Spending More Get You Better Sound?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 31 ก.ค. 2024
- We give our thoughts on the sound quality differences between the MartinLogan 13a and the Bowers & Wilkins 803 D3.
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Really appreciate the detailed conversation and review
Some of the best audio stuff is built in Canada, Paradigm, Anthem, Bryston my favorite and more. But they don't talk about it to much.....
Great review guys! I have the 13A's and have owned ML's for decades. It is REALLY difficult to switch back to a conventional speaker after listening to these. You made a very important point: the ROOM TREATMENT! I similarly have panels behind my 'logans and they helped tremendously with the imaging. Keep up the good work!
Night and day with the panels in place for my space.
@@therealshanelee Obviously, they play as much to the back as to the front.
I own them too; what does the rest of your system consist of?
Great comparison Shane. I’ve always been a big fan of the ML electrostat speakers. They don’t get the respect that they deserve imo.
I'm a new ML owner (ESL 9) and I agree on the recognition/respect topic ! People don't know what they're missing!
Very nice description of the speakers .. some technical details to express why ..and fair comparisons to performance across other brands.
That's awesome you enjoy the experience that much. !!! .. That Curved panel with its very fast response makes music transparent and highly detailed along a wide dispersion. The back wave could use some space from rear wall .. or a clever idea like you have with absorption panels. =) .. Nice to see !!
Great video. Nice to see direct A/B comparisons.
I built a pair of ESL's for scratch, coupled with transmission line woofers back in college. The speakers weighed over 100lbs each and towered at over 7' tall. I couldn't get the bias voltage above 2kv without the diaphragm arcing, so the sensitivity was fairly low. I remember first testing them out on the lawn, and a jogger was passing by and he stopped when he passed through the narrow sound stage. The ESL's I build were flat and not curved. They sounded like you had headphones on when you were in the sweet spot, which was only a couple feet wide out at listening distance. They were pinpoint accurate. I hand wound air core crossovers and designed the bias supply using a modified flyback transformer out of a CRT television. If you are ever interested in designing your own speakers, or wish to get a grasp on the physics or construction of design, read the Electrostatic loudspeaker design cookbook. For standard dynamic speakers, read the loudspeaker design cookbook. These books will give you a base of knowledge that you won't find elsewhere.
Sanders Sound Systems
Colorado
I listened to the MLs at Magnolia store and they sounded great. Asked the salesman during our conversation and he said that he preferred the 802s I was surprised. I do know that the 802s have to be set up well with some toe in etc. And then they have fantastic soundstage. So tough to choose this stuff.
The salesman get more commission on the B&Ws 😃 Money rules the world.
I sampled the ESL's in a store once and theres nothing on earth that sounds nearly as good. If you're not an audiophile, you will be after hearing them.
I owned several older martin logan panels. One of the pairs had panels loosing sensitivity. The other pair had even more severe problems with the high voltage supply being broke as well. At the time they worked fine they had very good and impressive imaging and scale. Downside was colouration due to resonances in panels and enclosure. I switched to audiostatic panels with a sub.
fantastic presentation...
did you use the ARC set up? What did you do with the woofer set up options?
thanks
Wow, was not expecting that. Good to know.
Is it better to place absorption or diffusion behind the ML speakers?
MartinLogan is owned by Paradigm and built in the same factory of Paradigm. Built and crafted in Ontario Canada 🇨🇦
Most* . Not all.. - These types are .. not the XTi and others like some of the CI stuff. ***
Try Lawrence Kansas as well...
@@drewrobertson6286 Thats where my ESL 9's were made (Kansas)
weeeell..... as a technician and had repair frequently paradigm stuff, they are made in canada yeah loll but.... with LOTS of Chinese crappy parts... sorry 😕 im canadian and first time i repair one i was like yeah a canadian compagny and when i open it.... oh.... china...
@@simonspeaker almost all audio companies use Chinese parts, cars, appliances you named it...they all do.
I'm no audiophile but I've gone thru my share of speakers, both traditional speakers with round transducers vs 'panel' speakers such as the Magnepan's as well as Martin Logan's and in my humble opinion, the Martin Logan's simply had the tonal characteristics that I've been wanting for so many years.
Shane, what acoustic panels are shown in ur video? Links please thanks
Love this kind of comparison! Hopefully, you will also do MartinLogan vs Maggie
I've listened to the Martin Logan's with a couple different McIntosh amplifiers and they always sound great.
Great Review! I had the opportunity to audition the B&W 802 D3’s powered by a pair of McIntosh MC1.25kw monoblocks and the Martin Logan 13a powered by a McIntosh Mc462. After 3 auditions i was not sold on the B&W’s. As much as I tried pushing myself to like/ pick the B&W’s I had to go with the Logans. To my ears the Logan’s were much much more pleasing. The soundstage was incredible. Gotta say the B&W is a beautiful looking speaker.
My system now consist of ML13a’s driven by a pair of McIntosh 501’s.
Awesome system you have.
SpareChange I appreciate it!
Why were you pushing yourself to pick the B&W? For the looks?
Nice job guys
Have a pair of ML Electromotion's, I wondered what a pair of their Masterpiece would be like in comparison. Thanks for that! Gotta find some spare change....
I built some speakers with a semi open full range driver (not quite in the box) so the sound from the rear of the cone escapes through the gap. And ran with a 10" woofer on the bottom. They "smoke" my $2,000 B&W 706s. My made speakers cost like $300 to build. They smoked my B&Ws for the same reason yours smoked the big B&Ws. That open sound does it. Purely an acoustic thing.
@SpareChange nice review! How thick is the acoustic panel that you placed behind the Logan’s? Is it an absorber or bass trap? Thanks
First time I’ve heard anyone describe B&W diamond tweeters as relaxed, laid back 🙂
A great song to demo that I recommend is Bohemian Rhapsody by Queen. The different sounds and position really let you hear all the different ranges of audio. Excellent demo. I current have B&W 606 anniversary. Looking to upgrade to 704. But I can't deny the martin Logan electro stats are excellent
Looked at buying the 13a s....nice, but my SUMMITS still doing the job...! Addicted... !
How do these campare to their cheaper version like MartinLogan ElectroMotion ESL 8". On best buy it can be purchased for around 1K and I'm thinking that it can be a good start into ElectroStatic speaker? I'm not too much worried about bass because I can cross them over with subs. Is there a sound quality difference other that larger sound stage?
Did you use the Rotel as ampifier for the 803's and martin logan??? Do they sound good with the Rotels? thank you. Newbie here. Trying to check what amplifiers aside From Macintosh that i can choose. Thank you
Given it is hard to demo anything right now - what is recommended int amp or preamp/power amp combo to go with Martin Logan - esp with Esl 9 series.
I own a Martin Logan Vista and was recently thinking of changing to 803D3. Issues i had with my ML is that I am staying in the tropics region where humidity is always at 90%-100%. These humidity killed the ML panels. THe highs are off now and the volume level at the speakers are different. Due to this fact, I am thinking of changing it to cone based 803d3.
However, when I got ML Vista new, i loved it. The sound is simply amazing, but its hard to get the magic spot since vista is a bit narrow panel than yours. Also, the size of 13A is prohibitive for me. So guess I am stuck here and likely to switch to 803D3 due to the panels. (I had them changed once already. They last estimated about 5-6yrs before fading)
Sad but .....
Yeah if you live in the tropics, electrostats are bound to be dead in no time unless you regulate the humidity with AC all the time.
Buy a dehumidifier?
Great video. At the end of the day both are great speakers. Some prefer electrostats some dont. When you get into this kind of money its all personal taste, not whats better
Speaker preference is indeed subjective (and room environment is a factor). However, given both men's detailed explanation of the differences, between these two models with the same recordings ...I'd say they made a very strong case, for the MLs besting the B&Ws.
@@christopherbrown5023 Yes but you have to factor-in the genres of music they used to describe these speakers. And there's also the generational differences on how music from specific era/decade are normally "tuned" during mixing.
I’ve owned both brands. ML throw a nice soundstage but definition, solidity and low level dynamic contrast goes to B&W. Also, B&W delineates tonal shadings better.
Yeah ML has a nice soundstage because they move air over a larger surface area, so there's more lifelike dispersion. I agree that B&W has better refinement.
Remember that room acoustics and how these two very different speakers will interact with the room completely differently. So the difference of your experience compared to theirs could be the room.
I have the ESL 13's and when I first set them up I was using a Mcintosh Ma9000 integrated. Sound was very mediocre. I changed out the amp/preamp for a Octave Integrated V80SE (tubes) with the super black box and was absolutely blown away. The soundstage is huge and the detail is unbelievable. You'll feel like you're actually listening to a live performance.
If you want to have your mind blown, play Private Investigations or Brothers in Arms by Dire Straits on these speakers. Biggest sound stage I've ever heard! It's like these songs were written and performed just for this setup. 99% of people won't have heard this music the way it was intended.
@@chuckharris4286 then also play "Keith don t go" on Niels Lofgren live album, preferably the audiophile cut vinyl version. The room explodes with his guitar. Amazing recoding.
Nice review. I became ML and PARADIGM dealer from last year, here at Santiago, Chile. I imported ML Motion i Series and ESL X. I have to say, the ML ESL X are awesome!! The sound is different to what I am usually to listened. Very detailed and pleasant. But, yes. There is the issue with the setup and direction. Take care!
Shane will be keeping them Martin Logans :)
I wish they take up a quarter of my living room.
Hi Shane. Just curious where cam I find leaked pictures of anthems new processor. Keep up the amazing work
I have been using M&K S150 package for about 17 years. I just listened the Martin Logan's 11a with the wife and she got goose bumps when we listened to the speakers vs the Revel speakers. We will be re-doing our Multi Media room (about 15 feet by 23 feet). I'm now wondering if these Martin Logan's would be a nice fit for home theater? Or do I look at the Arendal 1723? Sounds like, from this video, you really enjoy listening to the Martin Logans (even though your focus was two channel music, looks like they make center speaker as well for home theater applications).
Though have a pretty long room so they should work great. They also have power woofers that go down pretty low.
anybody knows what REL subwoofer model he uses in this room? I know at the theater he uses svs and rel ht/1508
Del Boca Vista: about the comment you shared
Where as I understand your point
that me hearing something via a video is determined by the mic used and speakers I use reflecting the sound it does offer an element of the quality
example: a guy comparing two different sets of speakers
playing the very same thing over youtube you are able to hear the difference in the speakers
I fully agree me hearing something on here than going hear them in person is the difference of night and day
but it is helpful
Do these ESLs have better treble extension than their previous electrostats?
So I will say that planner speakers in general have a superior sound stage, which you noted throughout your review, but most people prefer the traditional speaker design, which can have better fullness, punch, base.
All of those you mentioned (fullness, punch, bass) are reproduced by the woofer underneath the panel, not by the panel itself.
I know this is a subjective question but I currently have Martin Logan Motion 60 XT towers and 50 XT center. I really like the sound but was thinking of upgrading to electrostatic. The ESL X would be less expensive just don't know If there would be much difference in the sound. Have you compared the two in the past? In your opinion would it be a good upgrade? Currently powered by a Marantz SR8015. Going to buy a Denon 6700 since the Marantz has been sold.
Any update on the arendal review of the sub?
One of the big difference between the two speakers is radiating surface area. The larger radiating surface of the ML creates a better coupling between the radiating surface and the air. Also, the only crossover in the ML is down low between woofer and panels so the phase shift is only happening down low where it is not as easily perceived. The b&w has crossover phase shift in the voice and high areas where it is more easily perceived.
Question on speaker placement. About how far off side walls and off rear wall has work for you and made them sound the best?
As much as you can, 3ft at least
Nice intro beat
Very nice ! May I add? I have 3 systems in 434 sq. ft. listening space. Two of which are good quality dynamic box speakers (towers and stand mounts). The Martin Logan Classic 9's (paired with Parasound amp/pre) from the Masterpiece series are the babies of the 4. With the Anthem tuned 1600x subwoofer, it is the crown jewel in the room. I pretty much call it my end game system. It is amazing that the dynamics rival my former Klipschorns and vintage tube gear!
Before sending this off, I read through some of the comments. Ribbons vs. E'stats etc. Well, if you are talking Martin Logan, that CURVED stat panel allows for a VERY WIDE listening area and NOT a narrow, single sweet spot character that FLAT panel speakers present. Being a hybrid with a powered bass module, your not left wanting for bass (O:
I always wanted some logans , but on the few occasions when heard them ,they were too revealing ,too high resolution for most of my music collection unfortunately, they were like a magnifier on how poor a lot of the engineering on the recordings were, but the good ones sounded real good , and this was a long time back,great speakers tho ,even back then.
@@richieroo4844 ML has made many improvements to their design. And yes, you are correct on the 'reveal' (O: Don't forget their mission statement, "Truth in Sound". That is why I don't care for studio mixed recordings, especially when it comes to ORCHESTRAL recordings which is my main listen outside of LIVE JAZZ and blues. The ML's can show hut UN-truthful a multi mike / channel recording can be. Live recordings of only two tracks can sound amazing!
I am a recordist myself and believe in the principals of TRUE STEREOPHONIC recording! Hard to find it these days. The digital gimmicks and toys in the studio available to the engineers gets in the way of live performances. Not on my recordings however. 2 Ch. for two speakers and your two ears, NOT lots of mono channels mixed to give the illusion of stereo. Ok, end of rant............Glad you overall liked the ML's from a long while ago. Thanks for the reply.
@@garysmith8455 Yes , the newer generations of ML must be fantastic , and your 2 ch recordings would be something else , I bet. Im glad I do have some excellent simpler recordings such as Tommy Emanuel live ,and Cowboy junkies Trinity sessions {one mic live in a small church } , wish more engineers shared your ideals,
thanks for your words .
@@richieroo4844 Thank you Richie! Ah yes, I have been pointed by other's to listen to the Cowboy Junkies, and it's a great sound! I'll have to take a listen to Tommy Emanuel next! That is what is nice about this audio thing. The sharing of great recordings especially those in true stereo live. Do you know of others? I'll check them out with my Qobuz account. Thanks again.
@@garysmith8455 some of these may be harder to find but try -Allan Taylor,guitar wonderful Recordings on Stockfish records , Flim and the BBs (jazz) , Martin Taylor -guitar (jazz genre ,Linn Records) , Stephen Benett , guitar fantastic pristine recordings , he toured with Tommy some years ago , try some of Tommys live stuff if you can find it , maybe something there for you , best wishes
The localization of images you experienced with the ML is due to the directionality of the electrostatic panels and it's dipole radiation. It can throw images around your head. However the price you pay is small sweet spot, sensitivity to room setup and an effect on some recordings like the musicians are playing inside your head. This "headphone" effect is a property of highly directional speakers when combined with closely miked, pan potted recordings.
Notice the instruments-in-the-head effect disappears when the speakers are of wider dispersion design. Suddenly the sound has greater room fill and sense of spaciousness. That's because with wide dispersion designs, the reverberant energy in the room increases and fills the room more evenly. Most electrostatics however transmit sound waves directly to your ears almost like a laser beam with much less room bounce, hence the headphone effect.
what about in "movie mode"? Did you test them (both martin logan and b&w) in movies??
Strictly music. We didn't have matching center or surrounds to make it worth testing.
SpareChange fair enough!
I wonder how static compares to ribbon speakers?
have you considered a comparison of these 2 against the mcintosh xr100
Martin Logan are still one of my favorite speakers. As you have said in the video, they sound more 3-dimensional than anything I have heard. These ESL have powered sub-woofer at the bottom, so their bass are great. I used to have a 5.1 ML speaker system over 10 years ago. Yes, all 5 speakers are ESL, and they sounded awesome for movies! The ML Descent sub is still my favorite sub-woofer, which I kept until this day. I think Paradigm bought ML, and used their sub-woofer technology. The Descent sub had 3 10" sub-woofers firing at 120 degree angles, cancelling out the vibration on the subwoofer. I can put a glass of water on top of the sub and there would be no movement of the water inside the glass even when the sub-woofers are cranked up. The problem with the ML ESL is that they don't last for some reason. I had to get rid of the 5 ESL, and kept the sub. They eventually loose the high frequencies and sounded really bad. I think it has to do with the chemical used on the electrostatic film where they degrade over time. Not sure if ML have improved this now...
Cooking, smoking, and dust can cause the highs on an ML to fade a bit. My Aerius I pair I bought in 1999 still shimmers and has all the air and extension they had when new. As do my Uncle’s ML Quest pair from 1994. Panels still are strong and bright a quarter century + . Panels can be easily replaced on MartinLogans or you can refurbish them yourself. The service manager at ML before Gayle Saunders sold the company instructed me to unplug the speakers for 24 hours then vacuum with a shop vac and brush attachment. That will likely work. If not, unplug again for 24 hours, remove the panels and take them into your bathroom shower. No soap. NO Windex or any cleaners. Just gently shower the panels off with only warm water for about 20 minutes, concentrating on the front. Gently shake off the excess water. Then shop vac off any excess moisture. Let air dry for at least another day. Carefully inspect for any remaining moisture before reinstalling the panels. It works! I did it for many customers when I was in retail. Including those who smoked in the house.
@@daniannaci3258 I have had many ML speakers over the years and currently have Summit-X. I did the shower rinse several times with my previous panels with great improvements but have not needed to touch the Summit-X. Maybe they have improved or maybe its because mine are now in a dedicated listening room.
hi shane how big ur home theatre room?
What do you think of the 803’s for the home theater ? Vs like your Arendal setup? Overkill?
Arendal
I wonder how the new Final Audio Model 15 Electrostatic Loudspeakers would compare to these speakers? Major-Breakthrough for Electrostatic Loudspeakers
Sold my focal sopra 2 in favor of ESL 15a powered by Luxman m900u , its sounds incredible
Nice! The biggest in the Masterpiece line ! Enjoy ((O:
David makin moves!!!!
David did you sell because you didnt like sopras, or did you hear the ESLs first?
Focal sopras are really really good , it’s just ML sound is different and more to my liking, build quality on focals is noticeably better compared to ML , at the time I was between magicio a3 vs sopra #2 and sopra sounded more organic to me,
Great review, do you have any input on tekton speakers? There’s a few reviews here on TH-cam but your input always to seem the least brand bias
They have like a 6 month wait time since it's one man building them. I doubt I'll ever get a pair in.
@@therealshanelee False. I had purchased Tektons and there is a crew although you might (I hope not!) only speak to the owner. He had recommended the speakers (Electrons SE and center) which I returned. THey were matched to a Yamaha aventage 3000 and were as spitty a pair of speakers I have heard at the price paid. Perhaps my receiver matched poorly but it was a highly regarded product in itself, though the owner disparaged Yamaha(?), when I arranged for the reverse shipping. I was also informed that they were fine when they tested them upon return (No fingerprints allowed!). IT was all in all a bad experience. I bought Ohms 1000s which are FINE for me. I did get a full refund but it cost me about $400 for shipping.
The B&Ws are absolutely amazing. The room really has everything to do with it. The MLs are more forgiving in that aspect but I disagree about the sweet spot being big. Electrostats sound muddy and muffled if you are even a few inches off axis in my experience. These would definitely be better than ESL Xs but I think you still have a lot to squeeze out of the B&Ws. I’m curious to see what you’d think of the 804 D3s in the same space.
Muddy and muffled? That doesn’t describe any ML I’ve ever heard. And face the facts, in the video the ML’s are way too close together. Has this been a proper setup the ML’s would have had at least another 4 -5 feet of separation between them, providing a much larger soundstage. You’re obviously a BW fan and therefore you don’t find this demo flattering. You don’t want to face the fact that you spent more money for less sound. We get it!
3 words. Room. Room. Room.
@@pnojazz I said smaller sweet spot. I sold both brands for 5 years and listened to them every day in all kinds of setups. They sound incredibly transparent and clear with an airy open soundstage but stand up or move around and that all changes.
Yes, good point about the sweet spot. The difference between a 1" tweeter on the B&W vs a 13" tweeter on the ML. Made for one person to enjoy at a time. Still love ML.
Lol I love how b&w’s fans always blame the room for their sound. ML is a better speaker period, don’t matter what room you go in. It will always create a better soundstage. I also worked in the retail space for two decades listening to B&Ws, Kefs, and ML.
MartinLogan Electrostats, best sounding speakers I have ever heard. The only speakers in my opinion that have a similar presence and soundstage are Vandersteens, which I currently own - but if I ever have the opportunity/money to replace them with MartinLogans, I will in a heartbeat! Thanks for the review and comparison. 👍
Those are both some sexy lookin speakers... Slappa da bass got me 😂
Awesome and very human review, now I’m listening to the songs you’ve named in my Martin Logan SL3. Spectacular, each detail you named I can figure them, and the song from Dominique, woooow, what the hell 😂
I haven’t heard the 13a. For $15k they should sound outstanding. But I do own ML Spires, which were an $8500 speaker that replaced the Sumitt’s. I’d not sell my Spires for anything for they perform exceptionally well. I use them for both music and home theater. No boxed speaker, imo, can compete with a decent ML. ML rules audio.
Agreed ! And I have been a Klipshorn owner for nearly 14 years and made the hard decision to pass them on and try something completely different. Been very pleased with the ESL 9 Classic and John Curl amp and preamp to drive them. You can hurt your ears with this combo, trust me !!
How far into the room from the back wall were Martins vs B&Ws?
4ft
@@therealshanelee how about MLs?
Room is too small. Probably sitting too close to let the 803D3 fully realize. I'm not convinced. I owned ML Summits, I find ML to be an easy way to good sound. But, tweak the 803D3 right, and in the right room, you would be very surprised how little you guys are squeezing out of those speakers in that current set up.
Yes, but being fair, the ML’s should have been much farther apart as well. The 13a is one of the best speakers available period. No ML fan would expect this to be a close contest. I don’t get how you’re so surprised.
How am I surprised? I just said it prior.
The ML are line speakers without a crossover, in a small and near field listening environment, the ML will sound better.
You need Atleast 9 feet for the 4 drivers of the 803d3 to fully coalesce. Plus it’s not a line source speaker and there’s not a single lick of room treatment in that living space.
So obviously the ML would sound better. Like a big set of headphones.
Correction. Barely any usable room treatment. They had to put an absorber behind the ML to help the backwave.
@@joeyveloso9124 Completely agree.
Agreed. Once my bowers were given the breathing room it needs with tuning, they sounded so amazing. My Martins are great for movies but fatiguing after a short while.
Those of you comparing or referencing ESLx or any of their stats with less then a 11” wide panel have no idea what you are missing. Those narrower panels are not even remotely close to the sound of the wider panel stats like the Montis, summits, 11, or 13. There is a DRAMATIC difference in sound as you climb the series ladder. IMO any ML with a panel under 11” isnt worth owning. If you can swing any of these higher end versions, it’s life changing.
Why not use the Martin Logans in home theater?
Another speaker that I think would best both the B&W and the ML is the Revel F228Be, for $10k a pair.
Heard em and liked Focal 1038 be better
The Revel is so accurate, but boring as hell. And ugly as sin.
Very subjective the idea of besting or not. I respect your opinion. I wasn’t impressed the Martin Logan sel I auditioned. The very narrow sweet spot is a deal breaker for my use case.
I have Martin’s love them I sold a car to the original opener of Martin Logan he is a great genus
@Marten Dekker Well yeah he is a genus.
Please let us know how they compare to the ESL-X speakers.
Its mentioned in the video.
I would like to see you try these in the theater
They're too deep to fit in my theater.
@@therealshanelee - I do think placement is a factor for getting that holographic performance .. ya? .. Did you have to shift them around or just first place & ready to go?
@@Psyphonyx_Life we spent time getting the angle right for both.
I went from Monitor Audio Gold 300 to Martin Logan Theos 6 years ago and never looked back. However, I did also invest/DIY a pair of active subs because I'm a bit of a bass-head and the Theos' don't have much bottom end. One day in the future I'll splurge on some ML's with ARC. Don't tell my wife plz.
What’s the model for your Krell PowerAmp?
Duo 125
MLs sound great, huge sound stage. However, the combo of sound & aesthetics I like B&Ws more --which should be bi-amped to open up.
Yeah, it's probably a crime to not bi-amp the 803s. Must sound completely different when bi-amped. I bi amp the old 703s and everyone recommends that
My cat would love to climb on that Martin Logan 😁
Try the Magnepans and tell us...thanks
I have the pleasure of owning a pair on ML ESL X's and I do love them, very much so, but I also own.a pair of GoldenEar Triton Reference, and while I can appreciate great detail in my music which both speakers provide, music isn't music without BASS, and I feel that the Triton Reference give you the entire audio bandwidth, to include the great detail and clarity, a credit to the High Velocity Ribbon tweeter. That said, I would love to get your thoughts on that speaker with your setup. Be Safe, and keep up the great work!
These basically have built in subs so they have some crazy bass if you turn the dial up all the way.
Would you ever use either of them in a home theatre setup?
Sure. They need a good size space though.
@@therealshanelee awesome point can you provide more some thoughts on size constraints.
Martin Logan and Krell are like bread and butter. A well matched system !
ML are much cleaner vocals but bass b&w...both great speakers had them both at one Now for me Goldenear speakers less power hungry and great sound...with price....
I am NOT saying that you did not hear what you heard. My question is, from a mixing perspective, unless it is an aural mix, which none of these tracks are, it is not possible to mix-in height or depth in a stereo audio mix. I'm curious to understand how the ML's can produce height and depth that it is not possible to put in a mix. Maybe because they are tall???
And when I say I am curious, I mean literally that. I don't mean the statement ironically or negatively. I believe you heard what you heard and I don't understand how it is possible and would like to know.
I’d like to know how the Martin Logan ESL 13a compares to Perlisten S7t.
These are more transparent.
@@therealshanelee Thank you!
I wonder how it will sounds like if connect to ps5..
I owned the B&W 800 D3s. I have owned ML Summit speakers. I think B&W makes really pretty speakers, that I have owned the brand 6 times. Each time, I get rid of them, because of their awful, "woolly" sounding midrange. Some people call it warm. I call it bad. ML speakers had great treble and "space" but their lower midrange lacks development. And their is too much disconnect between the panel and the bass. I would never be surprised for any speaker to beat the B&W in sound. Throw both of them up against truly good value speaker, like the Tekton MOAB. I think it would easily beat either of them. But, I think the ML have potential, and I would be curious, about if the ML would benefit from better than stock power cords (like the Pangea Audio AC 9SE MkII), and putting good power conditioning to the panel, (like the Audioquest Niagra 3000).
I have esl 15 and replaced with diy furutch cables with oyaide plugs and audioquest 1200 you can really tell the difference
Yeah the ML's are organic in every way as are most electrostats.
Looks like new anthem processor may be on the way?? Or trying with arc ad
They haven't shared any info. But we've all seen the photos.
That Anthem ARC ad video is really old.
Where can I find the photos?
Almost everyone loves b&w's . Less people love electro stats. But for those who do, there is nothing comparable.
I like B&W to a point, then there are things that are noticeable in their sound characteristic.
Also have liked the ML that I've heard. Though they need a larger room imo if not for simply being physically large :)
So I just saw two guys talking about two speakers and I somehow thought there will be an actual demo. Its a let down.
I power my ML Theos with Anthem P5 btw.
Would have liked to have heard this world of a difference but since there was no music to me this was just your opinion. Just sayin’ Maybe next time you have the opportunity to demo this caliber of loudspeaker maybe let it play for us too. Cheers
Your tv speakers aren't gonna sound anything like or give a taste of what these speakers sound like. And you are correct. These are our own opinions.
Can you just do the Wx lg oled for me it’s Jon please and thank you
I don't know any Jon's.
I tend to agree with Mr. Baretta. He's definitely an experience listener.
*CONTACT FOR PURCHASE*
They do not carry the speakers!
Did you call? I saw them 2 days ago while I was there. They are the display model used in this video.
@@therealshanelee Thank you
Where can I get a pair of ML?
Which model?
Only problems with ML you must be in sweet spot. I've own a pair of Vista and loves them.
That’s on big ass box
HA! I often tell the recent story of trying to get my ESL 9 boxes into the house! The boxes are big enough to actually walk THROUGH !! You can see why just by the way they are protected and packaged. I keep the black covers on them during the week when I am not listening. They also came with a WHITE inner cover.
I’m actually in the market. So the Martin Logan’s are more musical, do they also have the same base? Thanks
They have built in powered subs.
SpareChange thanks
My biggest issue with this is
They are telling us their opinion not letting us decide
They might well be right but I feel we can decide ourselves what we feel
Not sure I'm getting what you mean. Sound is a subjective thing. There's many people that have said they preferred the Bowers over the ML here.
@@therealshanelee What I am saying is
you all gave you opinion we did not even get a chance to hear for ourselves
so we might decide
If I am shopping I want to hear and decide for myself
I can not do that unless I can hear it myself
as you said Sound is a subjective thing
each person might feel differently
but they only decide when they have heard it for themself
My ML experience was in my own home 30 years ago with first gen ESLs that had upgraded ladders. Had to have my head in a vice otherwise MEH. My Emerald Physics 3.4s MSRP $4000 provide all the things you are praising in $18K speakers
NO 'head in vice' with Martin Logan's Curvilinier design. Narrow, head in vice are all part of the flat panel speaker experience (O:
@@garysmith8455 the ESLs were curved
@@roberthart9886 Interesting, I just had a couple of guests here. One friend had never heard the Logans, and could NOT get over how huge and wide the soundstage was as compared to visit he had recently with another friend that has a large set of Maggies. He mentioned he could not stand them because if you looked to the right or left, or moved from the sweet spot, the image would collapse.
Perhaps it is all about the listening space? I have spent a long time 'tuning' my room using ATS custom panels and NO furniture clutter. It is a purpose built listening room. I used Martin Logan's suggestions for setup using their distance from side and front walls as well as the toe-in angle.
I don't boast about this system to my guests, I let them spend time with their own recordings, and decide if they like what they hear or not. So far, it has been very favorable, and that I am grateful.
How do this things creat sound😅🤔
No doubt about it... the electrostatic has the superior transparency. Unlike the voice coils of conventional cones, when an electrostatic force is acting on every square millimetre of a gossamer thin diaphragm who's mass is lower than the air it's moving... I'm gong out on a limb and say that no cone or dome, no matter how advanced, can approach such a transducer for accuracy, low distortion and transparency.
Least surprising review of all time. And, of course, unlike other comments would lead you to believe, the MLs also have better low level detail resolution than the B&Ws as well as micro dynamics. Not much exciting about the B&Ws. As someone who has hundreds, possibly thousands of listening hours on the B&Ws, their imaging and sounstage has never been very impressive. Just "a speaker", which is fine....
I heard numerous logans yes they sound expansive, thats what electrostatic panes do. However as far as distortion dynamics and sheer accuracy of timbre they don't hold a candle to the D3's. And come on get a decent amp. Rotel? For Christ sake🤣
Exactly - My D3's are powered by high end Musical Fidelity amps..........It's a great match B&W's > Musical Fidelity !
@@cstoney427
I dont dislike Rotel, in fact I own 2 Rotel amps for my video cave, but lets face it for D3s in a stereo setup they don't cut the mustard. I have mine paired to a McIntosh MC 462, they require an amp with true cojones and superior dynamic range.
@@Wised1000
Yep, no dissing Rotel in any way but you have to power the D3's properly as you have done with your McIntosh MC 462 and me with Musical Fidelity to get the best out of them.
Yeah those are sweet speakers. It’s best not to audition them if you’re not gonna buy them
5’8”!? Are you trying to pass an inch on us? 😂 jk. I actually heard these at a local Best Buy/magnolia showroom. They were meh lol
Which ones