Cub Theatre: The-Not-That-Impossible Turn
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 29 ก.ค. 2024
- In this week's Cub Theatre installment, AVweb's Paul Bertorelli provides a video examination of the runway turnback or the so-called impossible turn. Well, it's not impossible at all, although it's not necessarily easy. If you want to try it, you'll need to practice it first. And think about making the turnback decision before you take off, not when the engine crumps at 500 feet.
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That was great, I nearly fell out of my chair laughing when John King popped up over the footage!
He appeared courtesy of Martha King.
nashdp t
He is a good Ground Instructor.
@@feetgoaroundfullflapsC - But he is afraid of "The Turnback to Opposite Runway". Specially with power off to a slight tailwind landing. It is about time he learns it too. And Teach it too. Co'mon. Mild Maneuvering Pilots should learn Hard Maneuvering too.
@@CFITOMAHAWK - Yeah, I better land tailwind on a runway, than headwind on somebody's house or vehicle. The runway wont die or sue me.
I've been out of G/A flying for nearly 30 years, and rarely comment on TH-cam videos, but I'd just like to say that this is one of the most sensible videos I've seen about 'turn-backs'.
I was taught well by Her Majesty's Royal Air Force, how to perform these manoeuvres, and this video pretty much nails it.
I would like to say, as an idea, that we were taught to verbalise our plan, even if we were in the aircraft by ourselves. It just seems to re-affirm the plan in your head, and gets you thinking about the engine failure scenario. Same goes for the departure routing, in fact pretty much every segment of your flight, approach, landing, go-around - a verbalised 'mini-self-brief' (just the bullet points - not a Tolskien novel) cements the plan in the grey matter.
Having a plan, having practiced that plan, well before the event, saves a lot of heart-ache later!
Practising this 'self-briefing' also helps if you ever end up flying multi-crew aircraft, where everyone needs to be in on the plan - if it's going to be successful.
Anyway, just an idea - it's served me well over my 40 years of flying.
(edit: did I use the word 'plan' too much there? Well here it is again, courtesy of HM armed forces.....
Proper
Prior
Planning
Prevents
Piss
Poor
Performance
)
Awesome video! I was also pretty shocked on my first cub lesson when I asked for the pre take off checklist, and the instructor said "what check list?" with a smile, and then just rattled off the items I needed to have memorized.
Love the concept of mentally preparing for the engine failure before take off.
Anyway, I am planning to shoot a few simulated turn-back tests with different types for my channel, so I am happy to see it in a cub. (My simulations will be done at a simulated hard deck.)
Just make sure you are more convincing than Paul. Not sure if anyone noticed but on two approaches where you "supposedly" made a 180 degree turn, wouldn't the wind sock show that the wind is at your back? Well, that's not the case from what I see on the video. Now, probably this was due for ease of editing the video, but it still gives some sense that this might be tougher than even Paul might be willing to admit. Yes, on one approach the wind sock is pointing where it should...
The best advice in this video is that "THIS IS THE TAKEOFF WHERE THE ENGINE WILL QUIT" for every departure, including develoing a turnback procedure for THAT takeoff, including the minimum altitude based on the airplane, load, airport and weather...
That said, IMO it is the rare GA pilot that will practice this with enough frequency to execute this maneuver proficiently when the guano hits the fan... FIMO, the only way to simulate an engine failure is to do so with an instructor who will fail the engine unexpectedly, and has the ability to know when to take the controls should it be necessary.
You got to know when to show them and know when to fold them, Like the song goes. Knowing the plane's performance envelope near the dead man's corner is essential to make the turnback workable. A friend of mine used to practice this very thing, I rode with him several times and it can get exciting. He never thought he'd put it to use, but.....
His day came 5 years ago with three other healthy, 190 lb. guys sharing his 1978 V35B on a short flight to pick up one of the passenger's planes at another field. He threw a crankshaft counterweight at 85 mph and 300 feet on takeoff; not enough runway to land straight ahead, not enough altitude or airspeed to make the 180. Nothing but woods, houses and power lines in that 30 degree arc ahead of him. He managed to put it down between two houses and missed all but one tree which took his left wing off at the root and separated what was left of the engine from the airframe. He was hospitalized and recovered in about 9 months, the other three guys walked away, skinned and bruised. BTW, the plane was only 100 hours out after overhaul.
In gliding, we practice this all the time. Our spring check flights almost always include one of these as a simulated rope break, and are usually at around 300-500ft, depending on the pilot. Granted, our L/D is significantly better than the average power plane (30:1 in our worst planes, 40:1 in some of our better ones). From 500ft, we can usually get a full circuit in.
Great comment. This should always be in the preflight brief, especially when taking off from a runway with obstacles all around.
Very true, but I would compare this situation more to a cable break on aerotow. In that case, we are taught to land in a field ahead if you are at 300 ft. Yes, you can pull a 180 and land downwind. but let's be realistic. You are at 300 feet with all the runway behind you, you have to nail a perfect 180 turn in a downwind, high stress scenario where you might stall and spin and certainly die, and once you land, you are rolling merrily fast with no control effectiveness. Yes, you can pull everything right, but aerotow rope break is an eventuality we never train for, exactly because it's pretty much impossible to get out of it with full damage management 100% of the time. Your best bet for getting out of it alive is to land ahead in a field. Worst case you break the glider, but you walk away: your speed is lower, and a glider is designed to land in a field and potentially break if it goes wrong but absorbing the energy. Of course, if you have no option to land safely in case of a low altitude tow rope failure, you should not have taken off in the first place.
Loved the humor in this video. Especially your graphic depicting the possible emergency landing spots off the end of the runway.
One of your best videos. Preparing for this turn is something every glider pilot does before the tow, since ropes do break, usually at those in-between, turn/don't turn altitudes. Do the analysis before take-off. Factor in the wind (turn into the wind) and other conditions, then call out your turn back decision altitude before you begin the roll. Stick to this plan if anything does happen.
Thank you for bringing back Cub Theater. These videos are always a joy!
Thanks for posting this video. I'm learning gliders and have done two 200 foot broken rope exercises, caused by my instructor. The first was totally unexpected and not talked about. The only thing he had to say on the first was to get the nose down which I did immediately. The second unexpected broken rope exercise I aced easily. Part of the ABCDE checklist is the "E" portion which considers emergencies. In gliders I do state out loud my approach to a broken rope just after leaving the ground, less than 200 feet agl and then at 200 ft and more. In the case of gliders there are all sorts of tow-plane and crosswind issues on takeoff. Thus the "E"".
Excellent advice- which boils down to pre-thinking, pre-practicing , and properly assessing as many options as possible. That's piloting.
Great job!!! I love the plan ahead way of thinking. "every take off is an engine failure or you are turning back."
The impossible turn gets its fame from Instructors teaching NEW STUDENTS not to turn back to the runway. When dealing with a student, it is best to teach them to sacrifice the aircraft if necessary (by simply taking the options ahead) rather than to make an aggressive maneuver to return to the runway. As a CFI now, I teach all my commercial students how to find (though practice) the maximum altitude for calm winds and then practice making a 220 degree turn at altitude. Then once they are comfortable we do it at an airport with no traffic with an additional 100 feet of altitude. This helps them see that it is actually possible to return to the airport and save the aircraft rather than just trash it and walk away (which wasn't always the case with straight ahead anyways).
This really highlights the importance of taking a moment before taking off to consider the performance of your aircraft (particularly glide ratio and Vbg), the terrain or structures you'll encounter ahead of you, and the weather.
Paul, thanks for another great video, I learn so much from watching them.
My instructor showed me how before I soloed at Angola IN. I never knew it wasn't possible. I did it in a 150 as a student. Full flaps, nose down, rotate with the rudder. A 150 loses altitude slowly with the big flaps out even nose down. When the runway behind you shows up in front of you, round up and land. I developed a landing technique similar to this at the short Hangar Haciendas private strip where I was based south of Phoenix. From close downwind I dump full flaps and point the nose down while still downwind. Maintaining about 65 to 70 I rudder around till pointing final. Base leg actually amounts to a nose down barrel roll. My great instructor Bill Eyster taught me runway re-turn that way. I did it one time in dual with no problem. I got comments about my "plummeting" approach because I guess it looks hairy from the ground. Also its hairy seeing the ground rushing up when you are not used to it. . I never checked how fast altitude is lost in this maneuver but there is surprisingly little altitude lost reversing direction this way. From normal pattern altitude I always have plenty of altitude when I get on final. As this guy says, practice it somewhere safe and quiet before you actually need it
I like the assume the engine is going to quit before you take off. This is actually GREAT advice and you should assume and plan for this at all times, not just at takeoff.
John, the guys out in the country don't have the same obstructions we have in the North East. I'm with Paul, but you do make good points. It really depends on where you are at when it happens. At Essex Co. (KCDW) there is a golf course off of 22 and a large highway off of 28. But Rwy 4 has a large industrial complex right off the end and 10 has a large hill with houses.
It really depends on the circumstances. BTW, everybody against this procedure quickly points out that you need more than a 180 degree turn. On the contrary, if you are in a position to make the turn, make it so you point right at the runway and don't turn any further until you are over the runway and have the landing made. JMHO
In fact in australia we always have a takeoff safety brief, our benchmark altitude for a turn-back decision consideration is 700 feet, and I was also demonstrated an engine failure on crosswind and turn-back from upwind and crosswind, very fun and definitely worth practicing.
Upwind you mean the initial climb, the leg before the crosswind leg. Great practice. I call that Turnback The Question Mark Turn for a decade now. My CFI taught 6 kinds of take off and initial climb emergencies-partial and no power..
Brilliant. You are a born teacher, Paul! :-)
As much as you practice this maneuver, it's a LOT different with the propeller stopped. It's amazing the difference in glide from a prop spinning at idle to a stationary one. A Cub may be closer to the "Real Deal" because the idle so low andit has a shallow pitch. You'll probably find that landing downwind isn't going to put you down the runway nearly as far as you think. I used to practice "engine out" patterns into an 1800' field all the time, by pulling the power to idle on downwind. I had an actual engine failure once at altitude. An entirely different animal than a windmilling prop scenario. All that practice didn't mean a hell of a lot. That C-182 came down like a stone.
+zuzupetals1999--The engine out glide angle will depend greatly of the glide speed required..Most piston airplane engines with a say "standard prop" will have an engine dead, no turning prop at about 60 to 65 mph..depending on the compression ratio available on the engine..If the aircraft requires a HIGHER speed than say 65 mph, the engine compression will give up to the prop been hit by the wind on it making the prop windmill...That will create drag..and a bit steeper descend..If gliding speed used is LESS THAN 60-65 MPH then it means the engine compression is not been overcome, hence is less drag.from prop..That is why some pilots have written that stopping the prop shallows the descend angle..You can only do that on airplanes with a gliding speed under say 65 mph..If Vg calls for higher speed, forget about stopping the prop and use the factory Vg..Many have stalled died stopping the prop at speeds too low for that airplane wings...and crashed stalled..The Vg have to be used..regardless if it windmills the prop or not..Wings fly the plane when engine dies...not the prop..
@@outwiththem- USA pilots?? Most dont want to practice hard emergencies like EFATo. You can get all licenses in USA without doing a single engine failed simulation at all. You only need "Approaches to a Landing area" in USA flight schools. Military pilots are the best, small planes, the most wimpy.
Used this (OH S**T!) maneuver once. JN4D replica powered with 3 cyl. GEO metro engine normal normal take off with high rpm. Rural grass strip, no wind, reduced power at 6-700 feet and engine begin misfiring. The JN4D has the gliding speed of a brick due to the tremendous drag, but the engine was still providing some lift. Didn’t want to touch the throttle or see if if it would continue long enough to attempt a go around. In spite of training to the contrary, I executed the ? Turn & made the field 100’ up. Turned off the fuel made a normal landing. Restarted engine & taxed back to hanger still misfiring.
Turned out the intake manifold gasket failed. An easy inexpensive fix.
Yes, I call it The Question Mark too. You did a partial power Question Mark. Congrats.. I survived 2 of them ? with partial power on Cherokee 150hp from 600 agl.
"Your best customer just flew by." - I love it.
Great! .... And good to see your Cub has the correct pre-war instrument panel!
As you've illustrated - every time I decide to crash land somewhere, there's always lawyers kids playing there!
"Your Message Here." Laughed out loud. ...and then it changes. Excellent.
Agree with Paul: practice makes perfect; on quiet evening at the airport I practice it once a week 3 or 4 times at 500 feet after take off … but I have a Sinus with 26 glide ratio ; )
Thanks Paul for that great educational video
Paul always has something good to say and teach... Ask any pro multi-engine pilot and he/she will tell you: "From throttle up to some safe altitude, you're sitting on pins and needles just waiting, anticipating an engine failure at any second, and you're evaluating your ever-evolving options during each of those seconds. You cannot relax and you cannot become complacent; you MUST stay ahead of the airplane. No matter what else is going on, airspeed is THE critical factor."
Practice Bleeding" was done by those brave spaniards for centuries before they came up for meds for high blood pressure in the 1950's . It is called "A Sangria".. From the word Sangre (Blood). You cut an arm vein, let it bleed a liter or so.. And that takes the headaches and stress from high blood pressure away for a few weeks. It was normal in spain to do that. Hurts less than a headache..
That is why that spanish drink red color is also called "Sangria".. Im half spanish... Ole', y Ole'..
I out loud brief an engine failure plan on each takeoff with three components: On or over the runway,
HOly shit john king , now that brings back some nostalgia
A very welcome cameo indeed :D
The Maybe Turn.?.I call it The Question Mark Turn since 1994..That is how it looks from below when done well..
Ok, The Probable Question Mark Turn.. Better Name..
@@feetgoaroundfullflapsC Or The Possible Turnback.. Hi Robert.. call me later.. Im in Vero..
Enjoyable and informative video! I do wish you guys would get your audio issues sorted, though :-)
Great info!
I didn't know Piper Cubs didn't have procedural checklists. Love their look though.. really vibrant color, just that alone. Just got a really nice one for FSX installed might take it out a bit around KOXC :) My closest airport of.. note, or decent size. Thank you for the video.
Love your videos especially the Sarcastic View of Pattern Flying. Just purchased a 46 J3C-85 in Feb. and have been thinking about trying this, will do it soon. I'm based at a non-towered airport but it is busy at times and has an ILS on the long runway. Also right at edge of Class B airspace (VDF).
Jim New Another option is to go out to a less-trafficked airport for practice. Obviously, it should be one you're familiar with. Make note of the turn back altitudes and distances, then when flying your home airport do a mental overlay (or use Google Maps and the airport diagram to literally plot it out). Always wise to know and practice your decision points should failures happen. I'm envious of your C85! The J3 I have done most of my flying in is a standard C65. Climb rates are leisurely, to say the least. ;-)
DucFanDan .
DucFanDan Good idea, probably do that.
Practiced this with a good instructor.. 172 made it back just fine several times at anything over 500 ft. Probably need an extra 100 or so in the summer. Maybe turn is a good name.
I seem to remember that in the 172 as well.
What about a 182? Someone in this comment section said they sink like a stone when the engine is out.
Only at low load and low-density altitude you can Turnback To Opposite in 150 or 172. High load or high density alt. both c150 100hp and C172 150hp climb too flat and you will be too far away from runway when turning back. Need to climb at over 800 feet per minute or too flat a climb to Turnback to opposite.
Climb at over 800 feet per minute or you will be climbing too flat to Turnback to opposite runway. Your climb has to be steeper than the descend on the Turnback to Opposite Runway.
@@Justwantahover C182's climb over 800 fpm. Good Angle of climb. But with engine idle you have to pull back the prop lever or prop is like 2 spoilers in front. Pull prop back in the turn along with carbo Heat lever.
Very hard to land a taildragger with a 12 knot tailwind and no engine propwash on tail surfaces. But flipping over at end of runway is better than crashing on a house or cars and be on the 6 o' clock news. They are many crashes in USA on theobserverchannel on youtube. I practice "The Take Off Turnback" since 1992. It saved me from crashing on a street on a short wing Cherokee. At 60 mph touchdown speed you can do a lot of damage to cars and houses down there. The ones that stall on it are the unfit that didn't want to practice it then tried it knowing they were not fit for it and crashed via Pilot Error.
Have you EVER flown a REAL airplane?
@@MrJDP1974 Yes, One nice time was 9 months before you were born and your mom asked me to make her join the One Mile Club.. Dam she was wild.. Dammm..
Turn-back minimum altitude for weight and conditions briefed for every departure in the C208B, have also done a lot of real life practice - including at MTOW (loaded with barrels of water) at ISA+20). Given the right technique (and generally very benign handling characteristics on the 208) and altitude at commencement this is often the best (and sometimes only) option. That is not to say is definitely can be done in your type. If the altitude isn't there (in the C208B) then my only job is to check forward and avoid stalling and aim for the best achievable option ahead that requires the least turning as the ground rushes up to say hello.
I learned that the minimum altitude that this maneuver was possible in a Lake Buccaneer was 300 feet. And it required a very aggressive full forward stick and steep turn. I was able to safely practice this in the Buccaneer as the 'runway' was a lake and therefore had infinite landing options. I am grateful for this training. I would not try it at an airport. It would be a lot harder trying to get back to a runway.
300 feet???...Only if 180 but that is dam very marginal..But Dont kid yourself..In a real engine total failure you take more time to react..2-4 seconds..and you in fear (Upset) ..tend to pull more up elevator...make it 600 if good practice before..I have done that maneuver hundreds of time..Dont BS yourself, Steep turnbacks are killers if you BS...
Something else to remember that wasn't really stressed, although I think Paul did call it a 220 degree turn whilst performing it... When you turn back, you will have to turn more than 180 degrees as the turn will take you off centerline right or left. It will take a little more total distance and bleed a little more altitude. I would also recommend starting out by "simulating" this at higher altitude at MCA in order to get a feel for how quickly altitude is lost.
Another good one ...
It is nice to see the different types of a/c doing this turn. Bones down to the Cub. A different animal in this scenario is the STOL a/c such as the Helio Courier, Turbo Porter, and Maule. With a 20 kt headwind and a engine that goes quiet, you might as well look in back of you in the Courier. That's ok as the slats pop out at 68mph if I remember correctly, (obviously an H-250) to 'help' you get down. I never had any of this old stuff try to kill me, even though the engines were pickled, not one of them so much as hacked or coughed. But to prctice the engine out turn was an eye opener. Of course it landed very slowly and in a short landing "roll."
Thanks for sharing, Martha!
(sharing John, I mean)
I saw someone pull this off myself in an LET-23 Super Blanik. They released and turned back at around 200 feet AGL and greased it. Turn backs are definitely possible in a glider, let alone a _heavy_ aluminum 15m doppelsitzer like the Super Blanik. I rode on the same Blanik earlier that day, and the instructor told me the pilot does a check at above 200 feet AGL, the point where the turn back is not only doable, but more likely going to be a success should the tow rope break at or above 200 feet AGL.
in a glider it's a nobrainer. 200ft is a good rule of thumb, but it is easily possible at 150, if not lower. Even then, you'll still be high
@@GreaterThanADeer Do gliders (without engines) have ballistic parachutes in case of rough terrain outlanding that could be lethal?
Justwantahover i believe some can be fitted with an after market ballistic parachute, but off airport landings are usually very docile in a glider
@@GreaterThanADeer One commenter said that more pilots die in gliders than power planes. Is that right?
Justwantahover I wouldn’t know
From the standpoint of safety, and consistent with worldwide trends, it seems to me an extremely helpful solution to engine failure at very low altitudes after take off would be to expand existing runways where possible to at least 4,000 meters of paved runway with possibly even more cleared and level over run space. I'm not a pilot but am educated as a City Manager and currently run a real estate brokerage business. Thus I fully understand all the considerations regarding land use. However in many cases there are ways to provide pilots with open space where they could land when this sort of emergency happens WITHOUT doing a risky turn back. I see it as more a situation of people not being willing to doing more to provide safer emergency landing places than it is one of it not being feasible to do so.
I had an instructor make me do full throttle in steep bank training at cruise. He was giving me a fool proof way to make a 60 degree-ish turn and not get into trouble. This was a 152 by the way, but I'd probably go straight ahead after a power loss and make easy turns to find the best field.
Every situation is different. Generally I try to get high as quickly as is practicable - no slow climbs on takeoff.
Is this X36 and KVNC you're landing at? Haven't been out that way in a while but it looks familiar.
Rope break/turn around training in gliders happens at 200 ft but of course 37/1 glided ratio helps!
Tried a Super Cub once. Lifted off, climbed to 500' (400 AGL) and realized I was ready to turn cross and was still over the runway. Instructor told me to keep going to where I would normally turn (maintain the usual pattern). I think that even as a student I could have turned it around on that runway but we would probably have hit the cross runway.
Pattern dwellers hahahah I’ll have to use that term… OMG 🤣🤣🤣 Martha and John the rockstars- how did you manage that? ♥️ In my 11AC I can loose an engine at 300’, turn around and land on the same 5000’ runway no problem, I just keep the nose down to keep the speed up for a nice safe steep turn, once almost on final I see what I need, usually nothing, sometimes a slip if too fast. Of course the Chief is under 1000lbs with me in it and has those huge wings so that helps a lot, but I see no problem doing the same in a Cherokee maybe from 500’. Will have to try :)
300 agl turnback on that Piper Cub ONLY if you still have some power left, or you took off with 10knots of wind. Better be at 500 agl on the Cub...
Your message here.
Exactly, and sure you will have a tailwind with some extra speed, but would you rather try putting her on a runway at 80kts or put her into a house at 40kts. The key is to go out and practice this to see what you and your plane can really do. You can simulate the whole scenario more safely by doing it with a 1000' or more "hard deck" cushion over some remote airfield or road until you are comfortable with actual practice scenario as shown in the video. I can do this (after training for it often)from 800agl and a mile, safely and consistently. Like he said, the biggest problem is often being to high when you reach the numbers due to the tailwind. Remember, get the nose down to glidespeed right away cuz speed bleeds off fast when climbing...requires a more aggressive push than most are used to in typical eng out training or stall recovery practice. Further, load factor in turn cause stall speed increase....when at best glide speed above a 30* bank, you gotta listen for that stall horn and either increase speed (push nose forward) or decrease the bank when you hear the horn (else Harrison Ford spin into the trees). Lastly, helpful to think about wind direction prior to takeoff so that you will turn into the crosswind (if there is one) when reversing...pushes you back towards centerline rather than away from it. Practice this often, increase your confidence, and add another option to your contingencies....or continue to believe that the turn is never possible and don't practice it and simply hang a rosary in your cockpit and pray for a nice field off the end of every runway you fly from.
Uhhh…Speechless.
Video is well done should always practice for what could happen but seems to me that the decision to do it has to be made before you take off their won't be time to look around to see if there is a place to land straight ahead.
Good one- I tell my students, yea I still flight instruct some, this year 2014 I will be renewing my Flight Instructors Certificate for the 19th time. That trying to turn back to the runway is 1. you will be the ace of the base if it works, or 2. your funeral. I teach never to lose control of the aircraft, and if you are not comfortable doing something then don't do it. There is no one answer that fits this one. And John King just showing up on the ground in a class room, that is icing on the cake. The things you can do in a J-3 or Super Cub will break you in other airframes. Never mind helicopters, the aircraft I most fly these days, I fly both and teach in both.
You either know how or not. If you dont know that maneuver well.. Just dont do it. If you know your "Turnback Altitude" with and without power, Do it. Better than crashing on a schoolyard or the grouch of the hood with shotguns..
How much more complicated is this when at a busy towered airport and someone MAY be already lined up behind you should you do the turn LASHO or go in the grass ??
Yes, the MAYBE turn. Crashing under control onto those small roads or houses is a much better option than spinning into the water. But, if a pilot knows the airplane and conditions well enough, MAYBE a turn around would be a good idea. I think that same pilot also needs to have the focus to abandon that turn for a plan B the SECOND it doesn't look like it is going to work
Really good to see John King.
Telling you not to practice hard maneuvers.. NG..
Add to checklist - "Low engine out action"... Really consider wind, like Mr. King said.
See the Tiger Moth fatal crash where a very experienced pilot carried a lady standing on the top wing when the engine quit and they were barely 100 ft AGL.
And this is why you always do a engine runup check mags detent before taking off
I had to pause the video to compose myself after laughing so hard about the practicing bleeding comment Paul made.
Actually is was done by those brave spaniards for centuries before they came up for meds for high blood pressure. It is called A Sangria. You cut an arm vein, let it bleed a liter or so.. And that takes the headaches and stress from high blood pressure away for a few weeks. It was normal in spain.
That is why that spanish drink red color is also called "Sangria".. Im half spanish... Ole', y Ole'..
So why dont cubs have airbags like in a car?
What do you ask for if you want to try this at a towered airport? What do you say if at a non-towered?
You ask to depart on one runway and climb to whatever and return on the other for practice engine out procedure.I don't know why you would want to do this at a towered assuming busy place,but if they don't want it ,they say no and probably scratch their heads a bit..
I would only do it at a towered airport. There's just too much chance that even if you broadcast your intentions, there would be somebody not paying attention, and already on the runway as you came back around, ready to get into a head-on collision with.
Better call the tower via cellphone and explain well what you want to practice..what runway and when, be very clear...No BS..
Once in 1993 i think, i got away with practicing touch and goes at the most busy Business Jetport in USA..Teterboro Airport..I was visiting with a small Cherokee 160...I called, they said yes..surprised all at that office..We climbed and was a pleasure to do 3..I guess ATC practiced those things too..Was fun...
Now I'm afraid John King is gonna jump out from behind my refrigerator door and tell me I drink too much Soda. He'd be right, but I mean...really lol.
Many times when people die from turning around after an engine failure fart around with a shallow bank and spin in or just stay way too focused on the runway and crash instead of leveling the wings and being happy with something clear and level
That I may try (if I had no other choice) in a Cub with more confidence than in most other aircraft.
That thing turns out of its ass.
The simplest and most loveable bird I flew.
Keep it Simple - that's real flying. #J3Cub
More discussion about turnbacks.. th-cam.com/video/HMu-GdKZe_8/w-d-xo.html
It's more like the "improbable turn." A well trained pilot may be able to accomplish the turn. So you turn 180 and are now on the downwind side. Your IAS is less than your SOG and it looks like you're going faster than you are. Are you on the edge of a stall and do you become an NTSB Report and a mention in AOPA's magazine?
If I were to practice this I would do it on a hot and windless day at about 2000 AGL and see how much altitude and airspeed I lost. Then I'd commit to memory that if I could make the turn on a 90 Degree day and only lose 400 feet in the process, I could most likely do it on a 60 degree day.
If attempted, I think there should be clear "minimums" to adhere to. If the engine craps out at 600 feet, are you a go, or a no go. If it's a cold day and you're at sea level it could be a maybe. What about in the mountains on a hotter day. Should density altitude come into play? Yes!
NTSB reports are clearly in the straight in 45 degree's right or left of centerline favor. I think we have a better chance controlling the situation without the turn back than we do with it. The number of options with the turn back are very limited. You're TRYING to make the field. If the straight in options are zero, I say TRY the turn back as you have nothing to lose
Great video. John king killed me. Hahahaha
Subtitles would be welcome for this one. My english is good, but the noise do not help at all...
John King is Great!
3:15 Unexpected cameo 😂
How come the sound is all messed up? Sounds like munchkins!
It all depends on what you're flying. A turn back in a glider after rope break is pretty much a sure thing at 200'. Try to turn back in less than 1,100 feet in a fully loaded older hershey bar cherokee six, and you'll find yourself flying a piano.
SOmehow just doesn't make sense unless you're at 1500 feet or more. #1, you're turning back WITH the wind which is an immediate risk, #2, the turn itself raises the stall speed (accelerated). I'd rather put a cub into a tree or back yard at minimum forward (ground) speed than nose first into concrete....
No, it is not careless and reckless operation to practice any important emergency maneuver. As long as you coordinate with the other traffic or by announce yourself very well, or have permission from Control Tower and no banks over 60 deg. Its a legal & needed maneuver. Don't let the Chicken Pilots make you a Chicken too.
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I practice The Turnback 4 times a month or more for over 30 years on many kinds on singles,(multies too done) on many different airports. I taught it to many friends. The few guys that complained about it I just tell them to show me where he could have landed or crash it, and do it FOR REAL, just like I just did land it at airport, FOR REAL,Not faked.. Just do it, show me where and how. They shut up, due what they say is to crash outside the airport. like chicken shit could do, even from a safe altitude to Turnback..
Most stalls on EFATO are due to "PILOT PANIC", not a turning stall. Even if not turning, they stall in Panic Pull. If one wing drops on the stall, they say "He Turned back". What the hell they know about a maneuver they can't even demo in light winds. There are lots of lies about Turnbacks. They are spread around for decades by guys who don't do them. They are afraid of even practicing them and want you to be lazy too.. Lazy men dont like the tough or the sharp men. We have to unmask those guys and correct their lies..
I have a video on my channel which I did in 1995 in which I explain in detail how to do the three main kinds of Turnbacks (I call it The Question Mark Turn since 1994). I do them even with a 14knot Quartering Tailwind. I also practice 50 feet engine fails on the video. Enjoy it. Question Marks are fun to do after you learn them well. The Dangerous Pilots are the ones that don't know. The Pilots that know, should not be pestered. Its like pestering Pilots who practice Aerobatics, only the other envious Poser Pilots put them down as "dangerous, due they practice that". Its just penis envy. F them. Practice is Power.
We need subtitles👍
Now try that in a maxed out Cessna 172 on a hot day!
You cant. They climb too flat. Be too far from the airport by the time it reaches the turnback altitude. Dont do it like that.
Looks like someone animated my landings I always thought a 3 point landing mebt stopping with the tail and both wings in contact with the runway lol jk
why is he piloting from the rear seat?
+gygw ok, but what is the reason for this? CG, or better visibility? I'm looking for something a little more specific.
The CG is a J-3 is more or less over the front seat. you are balancing the engine with your body weight. if a passenger is added the CG shift is minimal if not non-existent.
Thats very, very controversial.
This is a controversial comment for you. LOL
If you bring an engine it will quit.
John King rules
When I saw the title "impossible turn" I thought surely this is something I could do in DCS due to unhinged amounts of fighter jet thrust. Then I saw that it's about a failed-engine glide scenario. A Mirage 2000 has about the same glide ratio as a ball-peen hammer. Score a point for the GA boys.
Yup. It's not THAT impossible but it takes a good stick and situationaawareness
For the standard private pilot, flying something heavier than a yellow lawn mower, we can continue to call it the impossible turn.
+apburner1--Glad that a moron didn't learn anything from this video..It is not impossible if you know it very well..For the moron ignorants..They will try it even if they avoided learning it well, and crash..LEARN IT, THEN
POST..But you look like one of those cowards that wont even try to learn it..
Wow, you are some CFI. Call someone a moron when they dont see it your way. Coward? What do you think of the CFI who tried this and killed himself and his innocent students while trying this manuever? Well, he wasnt a coward and so we can commend him for that, wait, actually we can't because he's dead! For the standard private pilot this manuever might be more than one should handle and we know we cant trust all CFIs. So, how can you try this with NO risk, you cant! Some training adds more risk than its worth. The probability is that the engine WILL NOT fail and trying this was all for nothing. If you want proof how hard this is, see if you can find the flaw in this video that actually shows this is more difficult than even Bob is trying to portrey.
Lamberto R
Not difficult if you are a real pilot..What is so difficult in turning at best glide speed at about 40 degree bank..Just trying them 2-3 times and seen they take more practice dont make them difficult..Even 14 year old on gliders they do it every hour, every dam day..and they dont AND CANT cry aboutit to the CFI's,,like i have seen ,,,mom thats is a difficult maneuver and they want me to do it...mommm!!..
it takes maybe 10 times to start doing them well..Do on sim first of course, then at 3k feet, ..but they can save your life..VFR or IFR too...I owe my life to a them..1993 over a congested area...Cherokee 140 short wing..700 feet agl i lost engine, did it ..no damages..You get used to them...then you like them..
It seems pretty light so it can. 172 probably no, 182 no, Beech Bonanza no, tube&rag ultralight maybe, J3 (65 hp) Cub maybe, jet fighter no, Harrier jet fighter, yeah!
@@Justwantahover - Most non heavy lighplanes can be turnback if they climbed at over 800 feet per minute. If not, dont try it, go forward. Shallow climbs take you too far before the 700-800 feet agl you need to Turnback to Opposite. If climbing shallow, and wait to 1,000 feet agl, YOU STILL CANT TURNBACK, unless you took off from a veery long runway. Most 3,000 feet average runway in USA will be too far from you when you finish the turn from a shallow climb due you are too far away from that 3k runway. But on a very long runway it will be closer. You have to know this turn well or dont do it. Only good pilots try to learn it. Chumps cant do it.
how about we just call it the "mostly possible sometimes turn"?
Altitude, turn back.
Hey, I'm still alive.
Focus on gaining altitude n head home.
lmao @ king air overlay... holy shit.
should we count the number of pilots who have chrashed trying this becuase the get too slow with too much bank.
Yeah, or count the guys who sat there with their thumb up you know where and stallspun straight down.
Nobody counts the pilots who succeeded, who might otherwise have hit a house.
Like Yul Brynner "Anti-Smoking Commercial" said "JUST DON'T DO IT"
I would take the weeds any day.
"This is the take off where the engine will fail"...... Much better with "This is the take off where A engine will fail". That is unless you chose the wrong twin ;-)
I once read that the double engine is to have a spare that brings you from the position of the engine failure to the position of the crash :)
Maybe they shouldn't build houses at the end of runways.
Lol, practicing bleeding.
Take you Cessna 152 up to 4,000 feet. Set up a standard climb, and note your altitude. Cut power, and see how many feet you lose doing a 180 turn. I lose about 300 feet doing this. Remember you were prepared for this. Turn-back is a high risk policy. The other problem will be an induced stall-spin.
+Otis Brown A 180 degree turn will not be enough. You will need about 220/230 degrees to get your nose towards the runway. Like everything in flying you'll be better at this the more you practise. Put on 100 to 200 feet extra due to reaction time before the unthinkable powercut makes your brain determine how to handle the situation. I found, after some training, that nose down and 45 degrees bank made the quickest turnback
Paul, I am certainly no Boy Scout, but I am not a turnback fan. So I will bite on your bait and share my thoughts.
Have you ever gone up over the airport and compared the altitude loss in a 360-degree turn at a 45-degree bank between idle thrust and mags off in your Cub? In my L-2 a 360 at idle takes 500 ft. With the mags off it takes 800 feet. It is one of the many factors that you and the many others who post videos of lightly loaded fat wing airplanes at low-density altitude and idle thrust leisurely gliding back to a runway fail to acknowledge. We never see a video of an A-36 at gross weight, high DA, and the Mags off attempting a turn back. Nor should we...
Rather than practicing turnbacks to downwind landings, I believe we would save more lives if we spent that time practicing power off 180 spot landings. We spend a lot more time at cruise and pilots screw up off-airport landings regularly. The risk-reward ratio of training for off-airport power-off landings is much safer, and off the chart, a better use of our time and 100LL. Sadly most people who attempt turnbacks have never practiced, and too often the result is a funeral. Just recently a surface-level aerobatic pilot attempted one, stalled, spun, and almost perished. And further, I would wager if everyone practiced turnbacks, we would lose more lives in the training than would be saved by turning back from an actual EFATO... Most freshly minted CFIs lack the rudder awareness attempt a turnback, much less teach it.
So here is what I teach, Pick a spot, ahead of the wings, into the wind, and fly it to the ground. Airplanes that arrive at the earth with the wings level, under control, at minimum speed, have survivors on board. If someone wants to up their game, spend some training time on en-route engine failure practice and power off 180s.
I could not agree more! I’ve had to identify bodies on-site because the PIC “had” to get it back onto the pavement vs. the muddy field straight ahead. Not a fun experience. In fact, when you add Paul’s typical snarky, arrogant, , and completely “risk dismissive” attitude, I think he’s well into “irresponsibility” territory suggesting that anyone truly consider the maneuver in a true LOP.