"sabers have upper hand against lancer in terms of resilience and stamina". Meanwhile me looking at my Cu still fighting while tying his guts to a boulder.
Its a lot more different than this. Archers have advantage over Sabers due to just being more efficient mana wise. Most archers in general can barrage a wide area without consuming a massive amount of mana, and why Gilgamesh is so strong as an archer as he can use Gate of Babylon which would be a mana hungry ability on any other class but as an archer its cheap. So the archer vs Saber battle is more the stamina battle. Lancers counter archers mainly because they are more likely to have conceptual or defence ignoring attacks. Most archers don't have strong defensive noble phantasms and most Lancers have either conceptual noble phantasms or noble phantasms with so much overwhelming force (Karna) that they literally can overwhelm the spam and array of abilities they have. Its not even about being good at evading although it helps, Gilgamesh during the Fate route had to keep a constant barrage on Cu for 12 hours to prevent him from using his noble phantasm. Sabers beat lancers mainly because their power is more evenly distributed, if Archers fire many attacks that are mana efficient and Lancers have a strong Coup de Grace then Sabers sit squarely in the middle having powerful mana guns they can occasionally unleash while also like you said being way more efficient than lancers. It also is known that they beat lancers in the luck category which allows them to survive conceptual attacks like Gae Bolg and makes it so that strong Lancers despite having better firepower than Sabers usually end up loosing horribly due to bad circumstances plot wise. Casters beat assassins for their skill territory creation, not just having good scrying spells. Casters can set up a powerful anti-servant domain where they are at their most strongest and can even take a knight class in a 1vs1, for an Assassin this is like trying to invade an enemy's castle with all their troops ready and waiting for you. Thats why casters generally win in these cases. For Riders vs casters, they are a hit and run class. Riders not only have the speed but usually very hard hitting noble phantasms to boot. As a result they are an opportunity class that relies on being able to catch multiple servants with their better offences and then being able to dash away with no repercussions. This allows them to nuke a Casters defensive position potentially taking them out in the process. And yes like you said casters need time to cast spells and its difficult to catch a rider. Which as you know Assassins can exploit as they are the best at remaining hidden and tracking servants, this allows them to get a jump on Riders when they have basically thrown most of their mana leaving them vulnerable. Avengers beat rulers because Rulers are administrators of the grail war thus bound to the rules of the grail. The issue comes with avengers being made from the flames of vengeance which are part of the contents of the grail. So rulers get countered by Avengers because they as a rule ignore rules of holy grail wars and are part of the grail themselves. Moon Cancers being effective against Avengers comes down to the Mooncell being an autonomous system, its a separate world that can be used for the purposes of becoming a grail but also exists far beyond it, as it is its own world with its own rules, ones which Avengers mostly can't overcome or learn like Moon Cancers can. And yes Rulers countering Moon Cancers is just due to having the rules be better enforced against them because its like a group of hackers getting found out by the CIA, and Avengers would be Guriella warfare terrorists in this case. Yes basically Berserkers loose to Foreigners because Berserkers loose themselves to madness and Foreigners control madness. Alter Ego's beat Foriegners because originally Alter Ego's represented the Sakura 5 who were all complex divinities. In other words each of them had powers of 3-4 different gods and pertained their authorities, its the same concept as Hindu gods having multiple faces, so you can't inflict madness on people whose minds are already somewhat divided managing different personalities and powers at the same time. Usually the current definition is a version of an existing being from an alternate universe or an alternate ego. They probably added this so it can be more than the Sakura 5 but still has some complex divinities in it like Ashiya Douman and Sitonai. But I feel like Okita and the others are special exceptions and they just had quotas to fill. For the Pretenders being beaten by Foriengers, if you read lovecraftian lore you know its impossible to deceive an outer god, they not only change reality but see with too many eyes to really overcome them. They beat Alter Egos tho, because Alter egos like I stated are complex divinities, they are already trying to control multiple authorities at once, trying to uncover a deceiver is too much work or beyond their capabilities. But mostly the class affinity works this way because they had to balance things out eventually.
@@mr.skeptic Aside from the fantasy side of it, you did a good job too. In fact, based on real life, lancers should have advantage over sabers, since they have more distance control in a fight, and they can just throw the fucking spear to hit an archer hiding above, even if still not as effective as archers themselves.
Thanks for you comment. Do you know tabletop RPGs? I'm searching for a rulesystem good to run the Holy Grail War. Probably the players will just be the masters and the servants NPCs.
@@fredcavalcante1887 I am not really sure about a rule system that can work well with regards to the Holy grail war because there is a lot of variance but to try and homebrew something with D&D as a base. Masters themselves while they command servants are usually unable to combat servants themselves (Since most servants have magic resistance). Most masters would be familiar to sorcerers from D&D but with a bit of Wizard and Artificer sprinkled in there. As most mages still need to study for years to get good with magic but they can inherit their parents crests which is sort of like all the knowledge they have about magic and even some of their power transferred to their next heir to maybe make up for their shortcomings like lack of talent or bad magical circuits. This means that the older the mage family the more powerful they are and the greater the potential they have. Newer mage families often don't stand a chance in these cases outside of cunning, talent and ingenuity, so they would be closer to Arcane Tricksters. Where the artificer comes in is with mystic codes, as most mages can craft a powerful mystic code which lets them replicate older magics or even use magic that cannot be used by humans. A good example of a mystic code is from Fate Zero Kayneth El Milloi's Volmen Hydragium. There is also other things that come into play like origins, mystic eyes, and the various types of magic, from Alchemy, Curses, Celestial/Astrological magic, Gem magic, Projection/Enhancement, Necromancy, discernment magical theory and Age of Gods magic. Servants themselves vary since they are beings who are controlled by masters but since they are much like permanent phantasmal beings they should have greater stats than the masters and should probably be more than just NPCs. It would be like roleplaying 2 characters at once in a sense and its up to the player to determine the relationship between them. This would be more demanding on the people in your sessions but could allocate for more interesting dynamics. Since Fate is sort of like a battle royale setting one thing I must stipulate is no level based systems can work. As while there are moments where people in Fate get stronger, since most of the combat is going to be between 7 masters and servants, its best to go into the story with characters already having a large and diverse kit, potentially something that dwindles with time like Command seals. In general you wanna avoid giving players XP for winning fights because its just going to make your sessions all about winning, when the holy grail war itself is a very strategic affair and there isn't a lot of PVE type measures for it. Perhaps you can limit players with a mana system and they will need to sort of formulate how to gain mana, through altruistic means with natural recovery or storing it in vessels or making up a lack of mana with inate abilities like mystic codes and Mystic eyes or by say sucking the mana from people in a less morally good situation. You also have to account that in the Holy Grail war knowing a servants identity or abilities can give an advantage to players so character sheets gotta be private as far as possible and only small parts can be discerned based on prior battles or inherit skills servants and masters can have.
@@yammoto148 Thanks for the suggestions! I don't know the 5th Edition of D&D yet. The last I played was the 3rd. In the 5th would you say level 10 for masters and levels 20 for servants? Another system that I was considering was Mage: The Awakening (2nd Edition) or maybe Shadow of the Demon Lord? The dynamic between master and servant is cool, but I don't think that would be achieved by the same player playing them. I think I have to make them NPCs or find more players (total 14...).
I wrote this when I was bored a while ago to help me remember by trying to put some logic into the affinity system. Riders are low statted without their noble phantasm and are prime targets for Assassins. Assassins lose their stealth within a Caster's bounded field. A Caster's territory is penetrated by the raw power of a Rider's noble phantasm. Sabers are kited by Archers' range. Archers are caught by the agile Lancers. Lancers are out-brawled by the high statted Sabers. Berserkers forsake defense for offense. Rulers oversee the Holy Grail War and receive less damage from the standard summoned classes of the war. Rulers are undermined by Avengers who are corrupted aspects of the Holy Grail. Avengers are only effective against the Holy Grail's dominion and cannot oppose Moon Cancers who are part of the Moon Cell system. Moon Cancers are intruders to the Holy Grail system and are countered by its guardians, the Rulers. Foreigners are embodiments of cosmic madness and outclass a Berserker's madness. Alter Egos are aspects of emotion that have gained independence. They exploit the overexpressed emotions in the eccentric Cavalry and the crazed Foreigners. They are ineffectual against the rigid knights that surpress their emotions. Pretenders have masterful control over their emotions and the emotions of others so they dominate Alter Egos. Pretenders trick and backstab the loyal knights, are exposed by the skeptical Cavalry, and are completely helpless against the otherworldly knowledge of Foreigners.
My theory is, MoonCancer = Demons, Demons Influence Avenger behavior, Ruler=Priest, Can easily defeat a Demon but not a possessed person cuz that's too late or something.
To me the logic of the Cavalry triangle is as follows Casters can outthink Assassins- revealing them, casting illusions to draw out their attacks, etc. Riders are kings and conquerors, sailors and pioneers- like you said their mounts offer them advantages over Casters who might need time to prepare spells or Territory Assassins beat Riders because Assassins are known for killing key figures, such as the kings and generals that often manifest as Riders
"archers posses a distinct advantage over savers due to their range advantage" yea most of sabers cause if you don't know the basic about being a saber in fate is your sword can shot out a beam of light that kill everything on it path also create a big explosion at the end where it hit the target
Another reason why Riders are stronger than Casters is because usually Riders have a shit ton of assault type (cavalry) NP's that allows them to brute force Caster's defence. Advanced magic barrier? Cool, now block this chariot of Sun God you nerd!
I think extra triangle is about rules. Avenger break them, rulers uphold them. MC hijack and change them faster than Avengers can break through, but cannot use all their power when administrator (Rulers) are in the room.
Or crack theory, BB has a crush on Avengers so she makes herself stonger towards them but be cute and ask for help because she is weak against ruler. Why not? BB make the class her choice, literally, so sh could choice anything. Alter ego is literally the concept of alternative ego aka being a different persona to fit the situation. Meanwhile pretender is using a personality for a goal. Both are similar but alter ego could be seen altruistic while oretender could be considered selfish.
Alter Egos, beyong their programming, are aspects of another person's personality that gain their own identity. My theory of their synergy against foreigners is that they can be.. very simplistic in their thought process, being just a fragment of an entire personality. So the madness just flies through their heads. The opposite happens with Pretenders. A pretender just feings being someone else, and are expert manipulators. So tricking an Alter Ego into doing what they want is very easy. ... And what can do a Pretender against a mind beyond their understanding? You can fool those who you don't understand. Their eldritch minds are just impossible to manipulate, it might just backfire.
personally, you only missed two pieces of info. the 1st is that the Archer class can also include a sub class called Gunner since Guns and there variations like Cannons and Pistols are a much more advance version of a Bow and Arrow. the 2nd is that for Alter Egos, besides being programs, they are also a mash up of 3 or more gods & goddess. besides these two, this video was pretty spot on
Well, OC1 reveals that there's a two different type of Alter Ego. The Sakura Five are created by BB using the data of other being Saint Graph. Another is Alter Ego created by Alaya as presentation of a facet of a Servant. Since Foreigners are deemed Threat against Humanity, Alter Ego are created to deals with them? I'm not really sure.
This is advance version rock-paper-scissor. It's make sanse now why every master always just use bersercker, Because this is practice class ot blow all regular class servant.
The moon cancer avenger probably is something related with sakura and the crazy lofe of the many fate universes. Like moon cancer has a default avenger purge funtion.
The Ordeal Calls might gave us a bit of insight on what the Extra Class are all about. The first one, about Alteregos, told us that we all have multiple facets, and Servants can be summoned in different forms and classes representing these facets. The Class itself is the manifestation of what that facet entails: each Sakura Five is a facet of BB’s love, Ashiya Dōman is the purest evil, Beast splits like Kiara or Tiamat are the "off" forms etc. In regards to Class affinity, I would say they are strong against Foreigners because they have a raw sense of self that doesn’t make them doubt their reality and clearly see who the distorted person is. As for their weakness to Pretenders, it would be because the facet they are presented with is not a facet at all but an act (it’s not just an eldritch makeover but a full-on disguise). Their advantage towards cavalry is purely for gameplay I think. I’m going to wait for further OCs to reason with the other Extras. That said, if Avengers are the "Id" personified, as hinted by OC2, they couldn’t be reasoned with, thus making the fair Ruler powerless. Or maybe it’s just the corruptive mud being stronger than grails, either works to me lol
I always saw the avenger ruler affinity as something akin to what happened in the third fuyuki war, as Rulers are the mediators of the holy grail war they can me corrupted all the same by an avenger
In the case if Avengers vs Ruler, the commonality is that Ruler are very often related to the Divine. If they aren’t a god, they’re usually emissaries of one, like Saints. In the case if Avengers, they deride the mercy and uprightness of the gods, and are filthy mortals dragging everything down to their level. “What is a god to a non-believer?” As for Moon Cancers vs Avengers, that advantage actually requires a heavy background in Fate lore to understand. To put it simply, Avengers are an “illegal” Class. They’re not really supposed to exist, and are breaking the rules to do so. Moon Cancer is also a Class that isn’t supposed to exist, but they’ve maneuvered into a position of superiority and power. Tldr, Avengers break the rules, Moon Cancers _subvert_ the rules. There’s a clear advantage there. Rulers, meanwhile, are those that make and enforce the rules, which is the source of their advantage over Moon Cancer. They’re a Class meant to correct irregularities in Grail War, and Moon Cancers are massive irregularities. This doesn’t give them an advantage against Avengers because of the precedent the very first Avenger set by corrupting his Grail War and preventing a Ruler from being summoned to fix things.
your theories are mostly the same as mine since the first day I started FGO mostly around the knighst and chivilary classes due to their combat and weapon advantage and disandvantage capabilities although the only diffrence is that for lancer vs sabers swords has lighter weight than spear which gives them advantage to parry them quicker, slashes is faster than jabing attacks which lead to swords able to push spear to the sides before it stabs the opponent while archer vs lancer spear can be thrown as a javelin weapon which can be a projectile like bow and arrow but when hit it has more critical damage with its larger spear heads than how arrows are smaller which needs multiple hits to kill a person unless hiting it on the critical spot like head or to the heart while spear heads has bigger hitboxes which gives more higher chance of more critical hit
Any know the artist for the Abi art at 5:41 that looks phantasmal the monster looks epic! And on God we need another SHIELDER SERVANT. Like your telling me in ALL HUMAN HISTORY there wasn’t any other person well know for their use of a Shield?! Other than [REDACTED]?
Many for mc vs avengers it’s the fact that avengers soul purpose is to get revenge on more than likely earthly being and since it’s earthly beings the beings from the moon aren’t impacted by earthly grievances
1:08 hollow ataraxia servantless archer sniping saber and shiro they were dead in 4 shots and needed a command spell along with the fact that archer has no master
Archers tend to have a skill independent action probably due to the fact they sometimes need to stand on a building 100s of meters away to snipe enemies with bows and -swords- arrows
I saw somewhere that Pretenders have a partial advantage over the knights triangle since they can choose the best tool for the job, but they're not as skilled as a specialist because they're just pretending.
Avengers > Rulers because they brute force whatever game they're playing. They'll foul you the whole time because it'll stop you from scoring. Moon Cancer > Avenger because they're always changing the rules. Can't push the limits of the rules if they're changing all of the time. Rulers > Moon Cancer because they're keeping the rules fixed and everyone has to play by them.
It’s nice that you make a vid about this topic. Do you consider making one for the servants’ append 3 too? Some of those appends are interesting for a discussion.
Dude, you have no idea how surprised I was to see this comment. I actually already included it in my research! just wait. i dont know when... but true, that topic is interesting to talk about.
IF you don't remember, most of the class affinities were based on fights in the Main Fate Series, and so you can often remember them by the matchups that way as well.
I always thought that Avenger overruled Ruler because that's literally how both Angra and Jalter were summoned by corrupting a grail (or grail war), so Avenger is the rule breaker class (?)
Ironically, the weapon triangle is reversed in Fire Emblem FATES: Swords>Bows>Spears>Swords This is kind of reaching, but in the game Ninjas beat Mages (ninjas have high speed, magic resistance, and weapon advantage), Mages beat Great Knights/Wyvern Riders (they have high defense, but low magic resistance), and Great Knights/Wyvern Riders beat Ninjas (due to low attack and defense).
@@Fermin-hw5pdMelee and ranged basically share the same triangle. For example, if you used a reverse weapon like the Reverse Katana, your attacks will drop in accuracy against Axes and Bows.
I will never accept whatever accept whatever FGO's logic is for the "cavalry" triangle--the dynamic between casters and assassins has always been the opposite in gaming, assassins are always the anti-mage class. Sneaking around, subverting magical wards and other defenses is best done by the unscrupulous; ffs, the "Magus Killer" is an Assassin. It also makes more sense that a magic-user would be the best equipped to handle a mounted unit's mobility. That triangle should be the reverse and donglewanks f-ed it up.
Both can make sense honestly. But the assassin Vs caster thing makes sense specially when you look at the scene where Gilgamesh beat one of the Hassan’s. Though a caster probably didn’t set up that barrier.
@@ACagedBird364I honestly can't recall which scene that is. Anyway; any which way could make sense depending on how you stretch your logic, but Assassin>Caster has much more extensive precedence. Shows how little donglewanks understood the IP, when all they had to do was look at Kerry--I mean, how does it make any sense that Waver kicks his ass? Then there's Iskandar VS Hundo Persona.
@@crypto66 Then there’s the knight class. Artoria struggles against every lancer but has it easy against the archers while the archers put up a fight against lancers mainly because they have like mind’s eye or something
@@crypto66 to be fair… 100 personas. Each has their own specialty. I need to see an alter ego of them now that I think of it th-cam.com/video/vD09_7kHPec/w-d-xo.htmlsi=Xr98vGSy2BdGPAtF But this is the scene
The extra one triangle I believe coincides with the relationship with the rules rulers enforce the rules, avengers ignore the rules and mooncancers exploit the rules. Mooncancers are insanely strong because of their abuse giving them an advantage against avengers but cowtow to the rules on principle losing to rulers. Avengers don't have the raw power to contend with a mooncancer but against a ruler who uses the rules (Command seals, true name discernment etc) to compensate for their average power their rulebreaker type spirit Origin let's them ignore such trivialities
Pretender Weak against Foreigner, Effective against Alter Ego Explanation for this requires a bit of mental gymnastics but the simple one might be just to complete that specific triangle
@@ACagedBird364 lancer counters every death in the series based on the hints from the grail (seihai kun) He managed to dodge all misfortunes until he started to let his guard down after he thought his crisis is finished Then he is getting killed by a volleyball 🏐 after letting his guard down
Archers use bows and arrows lol I’ve seen that sometimes Bows and swords Guns Swords Portals Chains LOL MOST ARCHERS ARE ILLEQUIPED TO FIGHTING UP CLOSE Chiron punching Achilles Berserkers mainly offensive. This is so funny because I agree 100% and the show says it as well but then the are times when they’re just not true. Like Artoria was caught so off guard when Hercules let go of his weapon and mans was agile. Iskandar and everyone was surprised that Lancelot had the sense to dodge and grab Gilgamesh’s swords and deflect the others with said sword
Phew! I managed to sub just in time before Passionlip swallowed me into her twin mountains lol. And how would you rank the Saver (Buddah) class from the Mooncell and the Gunner class Billy is supposed to be able to be? I was always curious. And we now.have the Beast class as a summonable unit. Unfortunately, the devs said each new Beast class Servant we summon will have unique class affinities. So how would you rank an entire class full of unique affinities on a Beast by Beast basis?
I... actually didn't know that there would be a separate affinity for Beasts, so yea I might have to dig for more info. but... things really get more complicated in JP huh?
@@mr.skepticthe only beast we have on JP is Nero and she’s strong against all 7 original classes but weak to all extra classes. And I believe she takes resisted damage from those 7 classes. That or it’s neutral
I think all the 7 basic class affinities except berserker are in complete reverse. Archers have always been historically good Vs spear infantry who use formations and move slowly, swords are mobile and capable of closing the distance to get at archers and spears have a reach advantage vs swords in melee. Meanwhile everyone knows mages suck at close combat, assassins are capable of closing the gap without being seen rendering the mage powerless. Meanwhile riders with their mounts and similar can easily overpower assassins or trample them, being particularly hard to evade or pin down. Mages on the other hand have the power to demolish a rider charge. Riders being near incapable of stealth are obvious in their attack which lets the mage prepare a trap along their path.
There's no in-lore explanation for the class affinity: among all Fate material only FGP has it, and it's only used in the gameplay. The only mention of the affinity I can remember os story was a joke in Babylonia when Caster Gil fights a rider. I think when the inital classes were made, they went used FSN material f.e. Gilgamesh was a final boss in Artoria's route, therefore archers were stronger then Sabers. or because Herc had madness enhancement, all berserkers had to be glass cannot and talk gibberish. Other extra classes, when added, were modeled after the new 5* character, they brought up: Ruler class best suits Jeanne with its defensive advantage. Avenger best suits Dantes with vengeance motif, and getting an edge against rulers was a nice bonus back then. Alter Ego and Moon cancer only make sense in CCC. Pretender is tailor-made for Oberon in LB6, and serves to enhance the reveal.
I thought the reason Moon Cancers beat Avengers is because the Moon Cancer Class is the embodiment of absurdity therefore it is impossible for Avengers, the embodiment of anger, to stay mad at them. It's like that time Spiderman turned The Incredible Hulk back into Bruce Banner by telling a joke; comedy defuses anger.
On top of everything you said, I'd say that lancers beat archers because they can also use their weapons as a long distance projectile on top of close quarters
hmm, maybe, mooncancer is stonger vs avenger bc avenger is like, the consequences of your actions, but mooncancer plays by it's own rules, therefore evading causality? or mooncancer can take advantage of feelings like vengeance. ruler enforces rules on to mooncancer, but are still punishable by avengers? or avengers represent the corruption of the grail, while rulers are the grail, so they can be tainted? that's my take!
You are complicate Saber > Lancer because Arthuria won againt cuculain Archer > Saber because Gilgamesh won againt Arthuria. Rider > Caster because Iskandar burned Gilles de Ray hideout Caster > Assassin because Medea owned Sasasi Kojiro Assassin > Rider because Hassan tried to kill Islandar in the back in zero Berserker : you are good Avenger > ruler because Rulers are all about justice. Avengers are born from injustice. So they avenge against those who tell the world is balanced as it is. Like people against the police in all countries. Ruler > moon cancer because moon cancers are "cheaters" so rulers track and correct cheaters (like agents in matrix) Moon cancers > avengers because, as cheaters, moon cancers are injustice and make victims or tease "haters" who will become avengers. (And the cycle goes on)
I think for avenger is cause they don’t conform to the rules, the avenger class is similar to the ruler but have more freedom. They’re weak to moon cancer is cause their hatred and vengeance can possibly be manipulated and used against them For alter ego’s it’s most likely cause they are incarnations of the divine (being three gods) and thus are immune to the foreigners insanity since they are also a realm above normal
No me it’s always been for the saber archer lancer the saber can’t get close enough to the archer and gets shot the saber is a better fighter/ weapon in close range and the lancers range is able to get to the archer before they shoot just pretend these are gods with unique ability’s we’re speaking about
I feel like sabers are effective against lancers because they can easily overpower them, or have massive close range AOE attacks that make their agility less effective or useless
as we can see in the animes and the game's main story cutscenes, class advantage is not real... if they are real, then the logic behind them doesn't work... e.g the theory that caster can see through assassin's camouflages or sneaking or whatever makes sense, but that is not universal, you can't expect shakespear to immediately know that a hassan is infiltrating your base yet in the game shakespear will deal extra damage if he attacks hassan... so the conclusion is that there is no logical answer, it could be just a game mechanic thing or it could be a conceptual thing... just like (lorewise) servant diarmuid will die if he fights a demon boar regardless of even if you grail him or whatever and medb will die if a cheese hits her head or achilees will die if an archer hits his heels... in which case there is no way to know what is the reasoning of the concept advantage until the story explains itself
I appreciate the thought work behind this video, but being honest it doesn't really have sense. Lemme explain: • Historically spears were naturally better than swords combat wise. It's a weapon that can have any range and has an easier time piercing through any armor and doing fatal damage with way better accuracy, as well as better chances of striking from safety due to range. • About the archers only having range in their favor...myth. You need way more strength to use a bow that will shoot arrows to considerate distance, than what you'd need to use swords. Swords are actually more skilled based than bows. • About the casters, it would make sense if it wasn't because most casters can cast their spells instantly, or end up just preparing beforehand so their casting is not a disadvantage. • The argument for assassins...their able to sneak into vehicles? O.o uh, sure? But assassins are not just stealthy, actually a lot of them are not stealthy or sneaky at all, and have the class due to being mass murderers or crazy people. About the avenger, ruler and moon cancer, and the alter ego, foreigners and pretenders....I don't know if there's any sense at all, so I'll just go along with what you say 😂❤️🩹
Thanks for the words man. to be honest, i did this so we all can play without any confusions and we dont really need to "remember" which one effective against which. We just need to "understand" so well, its easier. But in the middle of the research, i barely understand wtf is this class doing, or why is this class even effective, bla bla. So you actually taking your time to "understand"ing my video and my absurdness in my research really makes me kinda... happy. You even took your time write an entire paragraph there. Thanks again
@@mr.skeptic I want to say that I really enjoyed your video! It was nice to listen to and fun to watch, and I do appreciate someone trying to make sense into this 🤘🏻 sorry I didn't mention before in my comment 😅 keep up the great work!!
Beasts vary in terms of what they are strong and weak against. They are tests for humanity to triumph over. So it makes sense that each test would require different means to beat them. Voyager? Are you thinking of the servant Voyager? Cause he's a Foreigner class....
Im laughing at comments here trying to justify the game mechanic. It is already stated that in order for the game to be "balanced", they had to use rock paper scissor logic. because there is no way divine servants would get bodied by normal servants. its only in this game that you can actually slay divine servants using low tier servants. so yea, it does not make sense just like you mentioned in your intro.
It's just a contrived game mechanic that didn't exist before FGO. It isn't reflected in the actual canon and only exists to make gameplay more interesting.
Not yet. My head was already spinning while I was making that video and thinking about all the possibilities. for the beast class, i think it will be next week
The power of coffee, late night deep thinking, a pinch of inspiration after poop, a bit of research from the game, anime, other media, and... "whatever it is make sense" jutsu to wrap it up.👌
I feel in real life, a swordsman would have a better matchup against an archer, than a lancer/sepearman. Yes, the archer can shoot the swordsman from a distance, but they could also do the same against a lancer as well. With a sword, you can keep it sheathed until the last minute, making it easier to move and dodge arrows. A spear however, is hard to run with, and if you "charge" with it in order to keep stability, you're limited to only moving straight forward, making it easier to target you. But a spear versus a sword, you can now dictate the fight against a swordsman. You out range him, and can attack with jabs while stationary. If he trys to flank you, then you can rotate slightly to keep him centered while he has to move more sideways. Not to mention, your spear can also track him too.
"sabers have upper hand against lancer in terms of resilience and stamina". Meanwhile me looking at my Cu still fighting while tying his guts to a boulder.
hey, in the case of Cu, I'm totally in denial about the lancer's stamina being inferior to the saber. that guy keeps denying death lmaooo
@@mr.skeptic lol true, his entire legend is based on Stamina and Survival ability
@@mr.skeptic his rank up during carnival phantasm finally pay off lol 😆
@@aditya_V just look on how much trials he had during shopping with hercules for some 🔋
He’s Irish Heracles.
Orion:"ARROW? NO!!!WE SMASSHHH"
yes, one shot saber class with pure muscle (coughcritcough)
Gilgamesh
Emiya used arrows like twice. Even then, they probably weaker swords
Nobu guns and swords
Takasugi guns and swords
What he can't smash is Artemis
the Archer Class is made out of Archers
Welcome to fate where it makes more sense if we just switch the Archer class and the Saber class. One uses swords and the other shoot beams.
That’s what I said lol. Or just delete archers altogether
@@ACagedBird364 with the recent Zerker Musashi buff, and MHXA, you might be right
😢.?
The archer class has archers
Rulers vs Avenger are maybe something of a "i can save you!" Situation.
Thanks for the video
More like a system and a body. One protects the system(ruler), one want to break(Avenge) and one is a corruption of system itself(moon cancer
@@pedrorosa9893 last one should be virus
@@lordtea both are true
This is true. Amakusa and Jeanne were holding back against the Count of Monte Cristo because they genuinely wanted to help him.
Its a lot more different than this.
Archers have advantage over Sabers due to just being more efficient mana wise. Most archers in general can barrage a wide area without consuming a massive amount of mana, and why Gilgamesh is so strong as an archer as he can use Gate of Babylon which would be a mana hungry ability on any other class but as an archer its cheap. So the archer vs Saber battle is more the stamina battle.
Lancers counter archers mainly because they are more likely to have conceptual or defence ignoring attacks. Most archers don't have strong defensive noble phantasms and most Lancers have either conceptual noble phantasms or noble phantasms with so much overwhelming force (Karna) that they literally can overwhelm the spam and array of abilities they have. Its not even about being good at evading although it helps, Gilgamesh during the Fate route had to keep a constant barrage on Cu for 12 hours to prevent him from using his noble phantasm.
Sabers beat lancers mainly because their power is more evenly distributed, if Archers fire many attacks that are mana efficient and Lancers have a strong Coup de Grace then Sabers sit squarely in the middle having powerful mana guns they can occasionally unleash while also like you said being way more efficient than lancers. It also is known that they beat lancers in the luck category which allows them to survive conceptual attacks like Gae Bolg and makes it so that strong Lancers despite having better firepower than Sabers usually end up loosing horribly due to bad circumstances plot wise.
Casters beat assassins for their skill territory creation, not just having good scrying spells. Casters can set up a powerful anti-servant domain where they are at their most strongest and can even take a knight class in a 1vs1, for an Assassin this is like trying to invade an enemy's castle with all their troops ready and waiting for you. Thats why casters generally win in these cases.
For Riders vs casters, they are a hit and run class. Riders not only have the speed but usually very hard hitting noble phantasms to boot. As a result they are an opportunity class that relies on being able to catch multiple servants with their better offences and then being able to dash away with no repercussions. This allows them to nuke a Casters defensive position potentially taking them out in the process. And yes like you said casters need time to cast spells and its difficult to catch a rider.
Which as you know Assassins can exploit as they are the best at remaining hidden and tracking servants, this allows them to get a jump on Riders when they have basically thrown most of their mana leaving them vulnerable.
Avengers beat rulers because Rulers are administrators of the grail war thus bound to the rules of the grail. The issue comes with avengers being made from the flames of vengeance which are part of the contents of the grail. So rulers get countered by Avengers because they as a rule ignore rules of holy grail wars and are part of the grail themselves. Moon Cancers being effective against Avengers comes down to the Mooncell being an autonomous system, its a separate world that can be used for the purposes of becoming a grail but also exists far beyond it, as it is its own world with its own rules, ones which Avengers mostly can't overcome or learn like Moon Cancers can. And yes Rulers countering Moon Cancers is just due to having the rules be better enforced against them because its like a group of hackers getting found out by the CIA, and Avengers would be Guriella warfare terrorists in this case.
Yes basically Berserkers loose to Foreigners because Berserkers loose themselves to madness and Foreigners control madness. Alter Ego's beat Foriegners because originally Alter Ego's represented the Sakura 5 who were all complex divinities. In other words each of them had powers of 3-4 different gods and pertained their authorities, its the same concept as Hindu gods having multiple faces, so you can't inflict madness on people whose minds are already somewhat divided managing different personalities and powers at the same time. Usually the current definition is a version of an existing being from an alternate universe or an alternate ego. They probably added this so it can be more than the Sakura 5 but still has some complex divinities in it like Ashiya Douman and Sitonai. But I feel like Okita and the others are special exceptions and they just had quotas to fill.
For the Pretenders being beaten by Foriengers, if you read lovecraftian lore you know its impossible to deceive an outer god, they not only change reality but see with too many eyes to really overcome them. They beat Alter Egos tho, because Alter egos like I stated are complex divinities, they are already trying to control multiple authorities at once, trying to uncover a deceiver is too much work or beyond their capabilities.
But mostly the class affinity works this way because they had to balance things out eventually.
Dude, thanks for the break down. You've done a LOT!
Compared to my wonky theory, yours sounds really solid lmao.
@@mr.skeptic Aside from the fantasy side of it, you did a good job too. In fact, based on real life, lancers should have advantage over sabers, since they have more distance control in a fight, and they can just throw the fucking spear to hit an archer hiding above, even if still not as effective as archers themselves.
Thanks for you comment. Do you know tabletop RPGs? I'm searching for a rulesystem good to run the Holy Grail War. Probably the players will just be the masters and the servants NPCs.
@@fredcavalcante1887 I am not really sure about a rule system that can work well with regards to the Holy grail war because there is a lot of variance but to try and homebrew something with D&D as a base.
Masters themselves while they command servants are usually unable to combat servants themselves (Since most servants have magic resistance). Most masters would be familiar to sorcerers from D&D but with a bit of Wizard and Artificer sprinkled in there. As most mages still need to study for years to get good with magic but they can inherit their parents crests which is sort of like all the knowledge they have about magic and even some of their power transferred to their next heir to maybe make up for their shortcomings like lack of talent or bad magical circuits. This means that the older the mage family the more powerful they are and the greater the potential they have. Newer mage families often don't stand a chance in these cases outside of cunning, talent and ingenuity, so they would be closer to Arcane Tricksters.
Where the artificer comes in is with mystic codes, as most mages can craft a powerful mystic code which lets them replicate older magics or even use magic that cannot be used by humans. A good example of a mystic code is from Fate Zero Kayneth El Milloi's Volmen Hydragium.
There is also other things that come into play like origins, mystic eyes, and the various types of magic, from Alchemy, Curses, Celestial/Astrological magic, Gem magic, Projection/Enhancement, Necromancy, discernment magical theory and Age of Gods magic.
Servants themselves vary since they are beings who are controlled by masters but since they are much like permanent phantasmal beings they should have greater stats than the masters and should probably be more than just NPCs. It would be like roleplaying 2 characters at once in a sense and its up to the player to determine the relationship between them. This would be more demanding on the people in your sessions but could allocate for more interesting dynamics.
Since Fate is sort of like a battle royale setting one thing I must stipulate is no level based systems can work. As while there are moments where people in Fate get stronger, since most of the combat is going to be between 7 masters and servants, its best to go into the story with characters already having a large and diverse kit, potentially something that dwindles with time like Command seals. In general you wanna avoid giving players XP for winning fights because its just going to make your sessions all about winning, when the holy grail war itself is a very strategic affair and there isn't a lot of PVE type measures for it. Perhaps you can limit players with a mana system and they will need to sort of formulate how to gain mana, through altruistic means with natural recovery or storing it in vessels or making up a lack of mana with inate abilities like mystic codes and Mystic eyes or by say sucking the mana from people in a less morally good situation.
You also have to account that in the Holy Grail war knowing a servants identity or abilities can give an advantage to players so character sheets gotta be private as far as possible and only small parts can be discerned based on prior battles or inherit skills servants and masters can have.
@@yammoto148 Thanks for the suggestions! I don't know the 5th Edition of D&D yet. The last I played was the 3rd. In the 5th would you say level 10 for masters and levels 20 for servants?
Another system that I was considering was Mage: The Awakening (2nd Edition) or maybe Shadow of the Demon Lord?
The dynamic between master and servant is cool, but I don't think that would be achieved by the same player playing them. I think I have to make them NPCs or find more players (total 14...).
I wrote this when I was bored a while ago to help me remember by trying to put some logic into the affinity system.
Riders are low statted without their noble phantasm and are prime targets for Assassins. Assassins lose their stealth within a Caster's bounded field. A Caster's territory is penetrated by the raw power of a Rider's noble phantasm.
Sabers are kited by Archers' range. Archers are caught by the agile Lancers. Lancers are out-brawled by the high statted Sabers.
Berserkers forsake defense for offense.
Rulers oversee the Holy Grail War and receive less damage from the standard summoned classes of the war. Rulers are undermined by Avengers who are corrupted aspects of the Holy Grail. Avengers are only effective against the Holy Grail's dominion and cannot oppose Moon Cancers who are part of the Moon Cell system. Moon Cancers are intruders to the Holy Grail system and are countered by its guardians, the Rulers.
Foreigners are embodiments of cosmic madness and outclass a Berserker's madness.
Alter Egos are aspects of emotion that have gained independence. They exploit the overexpressed emotions in the eccentric Cavalry and the crazed Foreigners. They are ineffectual against the rigid knights that surpress their emotions.
Pretenders have masterful control over their emotions and the emotions of others so they dominate Alter Egos.
Pretenders trick and backstab the loyal knights, are exposed by the skeptical Cavalry, and are completely helpless against the otherworldly knowledge of Foreigners.
Nice!
My theory is,
MoonCancer = Demons, Demons Influence Avenger behavior,
Ruler=Priest, Can easily defeat a Demon but not a possessed person cuz that's too late or something.
MoonCancer are people related to the MoonCell in the Extraverse, or have some relation to the Moon like a certain Princess of the True Ancestors.
To me the logic of the Cavalry triangle is as follows
Casters can outthink Assassins- revealing them, casting illusions to draw out their attacks, etc.
Riders are kings and conquerors, sailors and pioneers- like you said their mounts offer them advantages over Casters who might need time to prepare spells or Territory
Assassins beat Riders because Assassins are known for killing key figures, such as the kings and generals that often manifest as Riders
"archers posses a distinct advantage over savers due to their range advantage" yea most of sabers cause if you don't know the basic about being a saber in fate is your sword can shot out a beam of light that kill everything on it path also create a big explosion at the end where it hit the target
Swap the classes. Sabers are actually archers and archers are sabers. Or just get rid of archers entirely
Another reason why Riders are stronger than Casters is because usually Riders have a shit ton of assault type (cavalry) NP's that allows them to brute force Caster's defence. Advanced magic barrier? Cool, now block this chariot of Sun God you nerd!
Block the pyramid coming from below you. You did well. Now what will you do about the second one from above
I think extra triangle is about rules. Avenger break them, rulers uphold them. MC hijack and change them faster than Avengers can break through, but cannot use all their power when administrator (Rulers) are in the room.
Same brain 😆 started typing my comment before the video finnished so I didn't read the comments yet
This is kind of like the trio of the green, red and blue kings of K Project, except those 3 don't have a clear advantage over each other
Or crack theory, BB has a crush on Avengers so she makes herself stonger towards them but be cute and ask for help because she is weak against ruler.
Why not? BB make the class her choice, literally, so sh could choice anything.
Alter ego is literally the concept of alternative ego aka being a different persona to fit the situation. Meanwhile pretender is using a personality for a goal. Both are similar but alter ego could be seen altruistic while oretender could be considered selfish.
Alter Egos, beyong their programming, are aspects of another person's personality that gain their own identity. My theory of their synergy against foreigners is that they can be.. very simplistic in their thought process, being just a fragment of an entire personality. So the madness just flies through their heads.
The opposite happens with Pretenders. A pretender just feings being someone else, and are expert manipulators. So tricking an Alter Ego into doing what they want is very easy.
... And what can do a Pretender against a mind beyond their understanding? You can fool those who you don't understand. Their eldritch minds are just impossible to manipulate, it might just backfire.
personally, you only missed two pieces of info. the 1st is that the Archer class can also include a sub class called Gunner since Guns and there variations like Cannons and Pistols are a much more advance version of a Bow and Arrow. the 2nd is that for Alter Egos, besides being programs, they are also a mash up of 3 or more gods & goddess. besides these two, this video was pretty spot on
Well, OC1 reveals that there's a two different type of Alter Ego. The Sakura Five are created by BB using the data of other being Saint Graph. Another is Alter Ego created by Alaya as presentation of a facet of a Servant. Since Foreigners are deemed Threat against Humanity, Alter Ego are created to deals with them? I'm not really sure.
This is advance version rock-paper-scissor. It's make sanse now why every master always just use bersercker, Because this is practice class ot blow all regular class servant.
Advance? More like "complicated rock-paper-scissors" lmao
@@mr.skeptic hahahahaha. Now we are agree that bersearker, is the best class escpecially morgan and godjuna.
My image of a Caster Versus Rider is a hit and run tbh.
And my image of Assassin vs Rider is the Rurouni Kenshin scene where Sojiro kills Okubo and no one even notices lol
Saber has more resilience than lancer
While fgo
My blue dog refused to die 😂
Meanwhile red dog healing and removing buffs while applying defense down
@@ACagedBird364 Also Carnival Phantasm Cù: Man I'm dead
The moon cancer avenger probably is something related with sakura and the crazy lofe of the many fate universes. Like moon cancer has a default avenger purge funtion.
The Ordeal Calls might gave us a bit of insight on what the Extra Class are all about.
The first one, about Alteregos, told us that we all have multiple facets, and Servants can be summoned in different forms and classes representing these facets. The Class itself is the manifestation of what that facet entails: each Sakura Five is a facet of BB’s love, Ashiya Dōman is the purest evil, Beast splits like Kiara or Tiamat are the "off" forms etc.
In regards to Class affinity, I would say they are strong against Foreigners because they have a raw sense of self that doesn’t make them doubt their reality and clearly see who the distorted person is. As for their weakness to Pretenders, it would be because the facet they are presented with is not a facet at all but an act (it’s not just an eldritch makeover but a full-on disguise). Their advantage towards cavalry is purely for gameplay I think.
I’m going to wait for further OCs to reason with the other Extras. That said, if Avengers are the "Id" personified, as hinted by OC2, they couldn’t be reasoned with, thus making the fair Ruler powerless. Or maybe it’s just the corruptive mud being stronger than grails, either works to me lol
What’s OC2
@@ACagedBird364 Ordeal Call 2, the upcoming second chapter of FGO Part 2.5. Full name: Irreversible Scrap Heap - Id
I always saw the avenger ruler affinity as something akin to what happened in the third fuyuki war, as Rulers are the mediators of the holy grail war they can me corrupted all the same by an avenger
In the case if Avengers vs Ruler, the commonality is that Ruler are very often related to the Divine. If they aren’t a god, they’re usually emissaries of one, like Saints. In the case if Avengers, they deride the mercy and uprightness of the gods, and are filthy mortals dragging everything down to their level. “What is a god to a non-believer?”
As for Moon Cancers vs Avengers, that advantage actually requires a heavy background in Fate lore to understand. To put it simply, Avengers are an “illegal” Class. They’re not really supposed to exist, and are breaking the rules to do so. Moon Cancer is also a Class that isn’t supposed to exist, but they’ve maneuvered into a position of superiority and power. Tldr, Avengers break the rules, Moon Cancers _subvert_ the rules. There’s a clear advantage there.
Rulers, meanwhile, are those that make and enforce the rules, which is the source of their advantage over Moon Cancer. They’re a Class meant to correct irregularities in Grail War, and Moon Cancers are massive irregularities. This doesn’t give them an advantage against Avengers because of the precedent the very first Avenger set by corrupting his Grail War and preventing a Ruler from being summoned to fix things.
your theories are mostly the same as mine since the first day I started FGO mostly around the knighst and chivilary classes due to their combat and weapon advantage and disandvantage capabilities although the only diffrence is that for lancer vs sabers swords has lighter weight than spear which gives them advantage to parry them quicker, slashes is faster than jabing attacks which lead to swords able to push spear to the sides before it stabs the opponent while archer vs lancer spear can be thrown as a javelin weapon which can be a projectile like bow and arrow but when hit it has more critical damage with its larger spear heads than how arrows are smaller which needs multiple hits to kill a person unless hiting it on the critical spot like head or to the heart while spear heads has bigger hitboxes which gives more higher chance of more critical hit
Any know the artist for the Abi art at 5:41 that looks phantasmal the monster looks epic!
And on God we need another SHIELDER SERVANT. Like your telling me in ALL HUMAN HISTORY there wasn’t any other person well know for their use of a Shield?! Other than [REDACTED]?
i love listening to this at 3am
Casters have an advantage over Assassins due to Territory Creation. In a magician's territory no one is able to hide from them
I found assassin vs rider to be the cs sinc Rider seems ro be rhe royalty class, and assassinations are often carried against royals
Karna and Cú Chulainn probably subvert that resilience logic 😭 Cú specifically. That mfer REFUSES to die without the last laugh lmao
Meanwhile Karna dies to a regular stab. Meanwhile he’s literally a nuclear bomb.
To be fair he didn’t have his armor which negates 90% of damage
@@ACagedBird364 in Karna’s defense he’s….too good lmao. Cú ain’t letting such a thing happen to HIM tho 😭
Many for mc vs avengers it’s the fact that avengers soul purpose is to get revenge on more than likely earthly being and since it’s earthly beings the beings from the moon aren’t impacted by earthly grievances
1:08 hollow ataraxia servantless archer sniping saber and shiro they were dead in 4 shots and needed a command spell along with the fact that archer has no master
Archers tend to have a skill independent action probably due to the fact they sometimes need to stand on a building 100s of meters away to snipe enemies with bows and -swords- arrows
This is how normally one would think
But in nasuverse, everything is an exceptional
Alter Egos are divided beings while Pretenders are composite beings that meld who they're pretending to be into themselves.
The ultimate rule of all of this is because of Game Balance, also, why do Pretenders have advantage over Knights and Alter Egos over Calvary?
I saw somewhere that Pretenders have a partial advantage over the knights triangle since they can choose the best tool for the job, but they're not as skilled as a specialist because they're just pretending.
@@mr.skepticI need pretender Gilgamesh now…
@@ACagedBird364 The oldest fraud in Human History lol.
Avengers > Rulers because they brute force whatever game they're playing. They'll foul you the whole time because it'll stop you from scoring.
Moon Cancer > Avenger because they're always changing the rules. Can't push the limits of the rules if they're changing all of the time.
Rulers > Moon Cancer because they're keeping the rules fixed and everyone has to play by them.
Assasins are strong against riders
(Meanwhile a certain rider in Fate Zero)
Iskandar: Unlimited Bro Works!
It’s nice that you make a vid about this topic. Do you consider making one for the servants’ append 3 too? Some of those appends are interesting for a discussion.
Dude, you have no idea how surprised I was to see this comment. I actually already included it in my research! just wait. i dont know when... but true, that topic is interesting to talk about.
It makes sence only game wise! Who has the upper hand depends on a million and one other stuff
True. Of course i know that. But hey, cant help with theorizing the reasons behind all that👏
then there`s Beast. "fucc you all, you all are not grand"
One of the Sakura Five will come to me in my sleep?
Don't threaten me with a good time. 😏
IF you don't remember, most of the class affinities were based on fights in the Main Fate Series, and so you can often remember them by the matchups that way as well.
Thank you for making this video, please keep making more!
no, no. THANK YOU for watching this video. and of course I'll keep making more videos!
I always thought that Avenger overruled Ruler because that's literally how both Angra and Jalter were summoned by corrupting a grail (or grail war), so Avenger is the rule breaker class (?)
Ironically, the weapon triangle is reversed in Fire Emblem FATES:
Swords>Bows>Spears>Swords
This is kind of reaching, but in the game Ninjas beat Mages (ninjas have high speed, magic resistance, and weapon advantage),
Mages beat Great Knights/Wyvern Riders (they have high defense, but low magic resistance),
and Great Knights/Wyvern Riders beat Ninjas (due to low attack and defense).
Swords don't beat bow units, is that a Fates unique thing?
@@Fermin-hw5pdI haven't played all the Fire Emblem games, but that's how it works in Fates.
@@grapesvine Does it really? Aren't you confusing this with the shuriken > magic > bow?
@@Fermin-hw5pdMelee and ranged basically share the same triangle. For example, if you used a reverse weapon like the Reverse Katana, your attacks will drop in accuracy against Axes and Bows.
I will never accept whatever accept whatever FGO's logic is for the "cavalry" triangle--the dynamic between casters and assassins has always been the opposite in gaming, assassins are always the anti-mage class. Sneaking around, subverting magical wards and other defenses is best done by the unscrupulous; ffs, the "Magus Killer" is an Assassin. It also makes more sense that a magic-user would be the best equipped to handle a mounted unit's mobility. That triangle should be the reverse and donglewanks f-ed it up.
Both can make sense honestly. But the assassin Vs caster thing makes sense specially when you look at the scene where Gilgamesh beat one of the Hassan’s. Though a caster probably didn’t set up that barrier.
@@ACagedBird364I honestly can't recall which scene that is. Anyway; any which way could make sense depending on how you stretch your logic, but Assassin>Caster has much more extensive precedence. Shows how little donglewanks understood the IP, when all they had to do was look at Kerry--I mean, how does it make any sense that Waver kicks his ass? Then there's Iskandar VS Hundo Persona.
@@crypto66 Then there’s the knight class. Artoria struggles against every lancer but has it easy against the archers while the archers put up a fight against lancers mainly because they have like mind’s eye or something
@@crypto66 to be fair… 100 personas. Each has their own specialty. I need to see an alter ego of them now that I think of it
th-cam.com/video/vD09_7kHPec/w-d-xo.htmlsi=Xr98vGSy2BdGPAtF
But this is the scene
@@ACagedBird364 I don't really care about the weapon classes, because nothing is going to make sense there and Assassin is my favorite class.
The extra one triangle I believe coincides with the relationship with the rules rulers enforce the rules, avengers ignore the rules and mooncancers exploit the rules. Mooncancers are insanely strong because of their abuse giving them an advantage against avengers but cowtow to the rules on principle losing to rulers. Avengers don't have the raw power to contend with a mooncancer but against a ruler who uses the rules (Command seals, true name discernment etc) to compensate for their average power their rulebreaker type spirit Origin let's them ignore such trivialities
"Saber is the stronger class", me looking the strongest servants and only seeing Casters and Berserkers
Archer class really made of "Archer" huh?
Pretender
Weak against Foreigner, Effective against Alter Ego
Explanation for this requires a bit of mental gymnastics but the simple one might be just to complete that specific triangle
You gave the explanation to why it works. Because the battle itself is literally mental gymnastics
Once I made a mistake for choosing a blue tight suit 🐕 lancer in saber boss
My mind: Lancer ga shinda 🥲🤧
Reality: Carnival phantasm ep 11 😂
Wait what happened in that episode
@@ACagedBird364 lancer counters every death in the series based on the hints from the grail (seihai kun)
He managed to dodge all misfortunes until he started to let his guard down after he thought his crisis is finished
Then he is getting killed by a volleyball 🏐 after letting his guard down
Archers use bows and arrows lol
I’ve seen that sometimes
Bows and swords
Guns
Swords
Portals
Chains
LOL MOST ARCHERS ARE ILLEQUIPED TO FIGHTING UP CLOSE
Chiron punching Achilles
Berserkers mainly offensive. This is so funny because I agree 100% and the show says it as well but then the are times when they’re just not true. Like Artoria was caught so off guard when Hercules let go of his weapon and mans was agile. Iskandar and everyone was surprised that Lancelot had the sense to dodge and grab Gilgamesh’s swords and deflect the others with said sword
Phew! I managed to sub just in time before Passionlip swallowed me into her twin mountains lol.
And how would you rank the Saver (Buddah) class from the Mooncell and the Gunner class Billy is supposed to be able to be?
I was always curious.
And we now.have the Beast class as a summonable unit.
Unfortunately, the devs said each new Beast class Servant we summon will have unique class affinities.
So how would you rank an entire class full of unique affinities on a Beast by Beast basis?
I... actually didn't know that there would be a separate affinity for Beasts, so yea I might have to dig for more info. but... things really get more complicated in JP huh?
@@mr.skepticthe only beast we have on JP is Nero and she’s strong against all 7 original classes but weak to all extra classes. And I believe she takes resisted damage from those 7 classes. That or it’s neutral
Why do people call Savior by Saver? Buddha's class is called Savior in Extra, is it called Saver in japanese?
I think all the 7 basic class affinities except berserker are in complete reverse.
Archers have always been historically good Vs spear infantry who use formations and move slowly, swords are mobile and capable of closing the distance to get at archers and spears have a reach advantage vs swords in melee.
Meanwhile everyone knows mages suck at close combat, assassins are capable of closing the gap without being seen rendering the mage powerless. Meanwhile riders with their mounts and similar can easily overpower assassins or trample them, being particularly hard to evade or pin down. Mages on the other hand have the power to demolish a rider charge. Riders being near incapable of stealth are obvious in their attack which lets the mage prepare a trap along their path.
There's no in-lore explanation for the class affinity: among all Fate material only FGP has it, and it's only used in the gameplay. The only mention of the affinity I can remember os story was a joke in Babylonia when Caster Gil fights a rider.
I think when the inital classes were made, they went used FSN material
f.e. Gilgamesh was a final boss in Artoria's route, therefore archers were stronger then Sabers.
or because Herc had madness enhancement, all berserkers had to be glass cannot and talk gibberish.
Other extra classes, when added, were modeled after the new 5* character, they brought up:
Ruler class best suits Jeanne with its defensive advantage.
Avenger best suits Dantes with vengeance motif, and getting an edge against rulers was a nice bonus back then.
Alter Ego and Moon cancer only make sense in CCC.
Pretender is tailor-made for Oberon in LB6, and serves to enhance the reveal.
Joey wheeler in FGO haunts me
I thought the reason Moon Cancers beat Avengers is because the Moon Cancer Class is the embodiment of absurdity therefore it is impossible for Avengers, the embodiment of anger, to stay mad at them. It's like that time Spiderman turned The Incredible Hulk back into Bruce Banner by telling a joke; comedy defuses anger.
The most op servant is obviously Fujimaru, we all know that
Not gonna argue. The girl one, thats the GRAND berserker candidate bro 🤣
If you think hard enough you can probably make sense out of anything, say for example king arthur being a blonde girl
On top of everything you said, I'd say that lancers beat archers because they can also use their weapons as a long distance projectile on top of close quarters
ngl when I think of archer class advantage, I think of lancers putting their lancer into the archers bow so they cant shoot their arrows
But why foreigner immune to all classes except alter ego and themselves still bugging me😂
They only resistance against Berserker and Pretender though, for other classes outside AE and Foreigner, they take neutral damage.
hmm, maybe, mooncancer is stonger vs avenger bc avenger is like, the consequences of your actions, but mooncancer plays by it's own rules, therefore evading causality? or mooncancer can take advantage of feelings like vengeance. ruler enforces rules on to mooncancer, but are still punishable by avengers? or avengers represent the corruption of the grail, while rulers are the grail, so they can be tainted? that's my take!
2:49 i spot me Yukimura
Dragoon sighting, 2:49
You are complicate
Saber > Lancer because Arthuria won againt cuculain
Archer > Saber because Gilgamesh won againt Arthuria.
Rider > Caster because Iskandar burned Gilles de Ray hideout
Caster > Assassin because Medea owned Sasasi Kojiro
Assassin > Rider because Hassan tried to kill Islandar in the back in zero
Berserker : you are good
Avenger > ruler because Rulers are all about justice. Avengers are born from injustice. So they avenge against those who tell the world is balanced as it is. Like people against the police in all countries.
Ruler > moon cancer because moon cancers are "cheaters" so rulers track and correct cheaters (like agents in matrix)
Moon cancers > avengers because, as cheaters, moon cancers are injustice and make victims or tease "haters" who will become avengers. (And the cycle goes on)
I think for avenger is cause they don’t conform to the rules, the avenger class is similar to the ruler but have more freedom. They’re weak to moon cancer is cause their hatred and vengeance can possibly be manipulated and used against them
For alter ego’s it’s most likely cause they are incarnations of the divine (being three gods) and thus are immune to the foreigners insanity since they are also a realm above normal
But all knight/non knight classes 🙇♂️ down to Draco 😂
No me it’s always been for the saber archer lancer the saber can’t get close enough to the archer and gets shot the saber is a better fighter/ weapon in close range and the lancers range is able to get to the archer before they shoot just pretend these are gods with unique ability’s we’re speaking about
I feel like sabers are effective against lancers because they can easily overpower them, or have massive close range AOE attacks that make their agility less effective or useless
as we can see in the animes and the game's main story cutscenes, class advantage is not real...
if they are real, then the logic behind them doesn't work... e.g the theory that caster can see through assassin's camouflages or sneaking or whatever makes sense, but that is not universal, you can't expect shakespear to immediately know that a hassan is infiltrating your base
yet in the game shakespear will deal extra damage if he attacks hassan... so the conclusion is that there is no logical answer, it could be just a game mechanic thing or it could be a conceptual thing... just like (lorewise) servant diarmuid will die if he fights a demon boar regardless of even if you grail him or whatever and medb will die if a cheese hits her head or achilees will die if an archer hits his heels... in which case there is no way to know what is the reasoning of the concept advantage until the story explains itself
I appreciate the thought work behind this video, but being honest it doesn't really have sense. Lemme explain:
• Historically spears were naturally better than swords combat wise. It's a weapon that can have any range and has an easier time piercing through any armor and doing fatal damage with way better accuracy, as well as better chances of striking from safety due to range.
• About the archers only having range in their favor...myth. You need way more strength to use a bow that will shoot arrows to considerate distance, than what you'd need to use swords. Swords are actually more skilled based than bows.
• About the casters, it would make sense if it wasn't because most casters can cast their spells instantly, or end up just preparing beforehand so their casting is not a disadvantage.
• The argument for assassins...their able to sneak into vehicles? O.o uh, sure? But assassins are not just stealthy, actually a lot of them are not stealthy or sneaky at all, and have the class due to being mass murderers or crazy people.
About the avenger, ruler and moon cancer, and the alter ego, foreigners and pretenders....I don't know if there's any sense at all, so I'll just go along with what you say 😂❤️🩹
Thanks for the words man. to be honest, i did this so we all can play without any confusions and we dont really need to "remember" which one effective against which. We just need to "understand" so well, its easier. But in the middle of the research, i barely understand wtf is this class doing, or why is this class even effective, bla bla. So you actually taking your time to "understand"ing my video and my absurdness in my research really makes me kinda... happy. You even took your time write an entire paragraph there. Thanks again
@@mr.skeptic I want to say that I really enjoyed your video! It was nice to listen to and fun to watch, and I do appreciate someone trying to make sense into this 🤘🏻 sorry I didn't mention before in my comment 😅 keep up the great work!!
it only makes sense for some servants
Sabers beat Lancers here...meanwhile in Fire Emblem lance units beat sword units...screws my mind
Missing beast
Beast.
How about beast class? Voyager class?
Beasts vary in terms of what they are strong and weak against. They are tests for humanity to triumph over. So it makes sense that each test would require different means to beat them.
Voyager? Are you thinking of the servant Voyager? Cause he's a Foreigner class....
@@briannafitzwilliam8184 in fate/requiem voyager is from the voyager class, also there are others, like the gunner class
@@alphaneris huh, learn something new everyday.
@@briannafitzwilliam8184 Beast class that I mean is nero draco class
Really it should be Archer>Lancer>Saber>, since spears beat swords in close combat.
Idk, i always thought it was obvious
What is the difference between ruler class and watcher class?
Im laughing at comments here trying to justify the game mechanic. It is already stated that in order for the game to be "balanced", they had to use rock paper scissor logic. because there is no way divine servants would get bodied by normal servants. its only in this game that you can actually slay divine servants using low tier servants. so yea, it does not make sense just like you mentioned in your intro.
It's just a contrived game mechanic that didn't exist before FGO. It isn't reflected in the actual canon and only exists to make gameplay more interesting.
Seems legit
Cursed thumbnail
What about Beast class?
Not yet. My head was already spinning while I was making that video and thinking about all the possibilities. for the beast class, i think it will be next week
Wheres the class Beast?
It's doesn't make sense
You are making shit up. 😂
The power of coffee, late night deep thinking, a pinch of inspiration after poop, a bit of research from the game, anime, other media, and... "whatever it is make sense" jutsu to wrap it up.👌
Jesus loves u all ❤️✝️
I feel in real life, a swordsman would have a better matchup against an archer, than a lancer/sepearman. Yes, the archer can shoot the swordsman from a distance, but they could also do the same against a lancer as well. With a sword, you can keep it sheathed until the last minute, making it easier to move and dodge arrows. A spear however, is hard to run with, and if you "charge" with it in order to keep stability, you're limited to only moving straight forward, making it easier to target you.
But a spear versus a sword, you can now dictate the fight against a swordsman. You out range him, and can attack with jabs while stationary. If he trys to flank you, then you can rotate slightly to keep him centered while he has to move more sideways. Not to mention, your spear can also track him too.