A lot of this is above my head! I'm an old school hot rodder! But I love what y'all are accomplishing with your studies and work. Hats off to all of you!
the heavier the springs, the more power is being wasted in each cycle trying to open the valves, reducing available work being produced, basically, fuel wasted due to more work being used to open the valves. To prevent valve float they could come up with a creative solution yes, but I wouldn't see why they need to rev the engine higher as the higher it revs the more fuel it uses. I would too, not want to rev a motor with 20sum:1 compression as I feel that the whole room would become rod territory :D
If they would have gone to an overhead cam, they could have eliminated the mass of those pushrods and possibly the rocker arms using a very light timing belt. That would have reduced frictional losses and given it a higher RPM before valve float using those same springs...
+ghetto bikelife the combustible chamber is pretty long. When the engine heats up enough we do have problems with detonating. The engine never heats up much in the competition because it is only run for 10 or 15 seconds at a time. When testing we can turn the ignition off once it's gotten warm and it will diesel and continue to run. Choke comes in handy then lol
You can have a high compression ratio and a lot of advance on the timing if you don't open the throttle very far. Did he say they were running at 4300 rpm and 22 mph during the contest? Seems like a high rpm for milage.
The mean piston speed is actually on the low end of the spectrum due to the shorter briggs crank. Peak efficiency even at full throttle maxes at ~4k rpm.
Ayyy! I remember watching your videos 6 years ago and wanting to start a youtube channel. Glad you're doing well in college. I was going to go to Penn State but ended up going to OSU. I'll definitely stay tuned
I've been a racer, machinist, welder, designer and fabricator my entire life so I really understand the engineering part of it. I have always been very interested in projects like this and doing anything different. I have also worked in the TV and film industry for many years. Now I'm mostly doing video work again but for myself and only what I want to do, things like social media and TV commercials, filming plays, weddings, training videos, music videos etc. I'd love to talk to you guys about maybe doing a short documentary about your build leading up to and through the competition.
Hey, I know that this is an older video but this really peaked my interest because the project that you guys are working on is essentially many of my main interests combined into one machine, I have also been considering going to Penn State university when I am out of highschool and would like to know what you're majoring in.
Note the glaring lack of gas vapour bubblers. :) I think it's terrific that you've found this club that ties into so many of your long standing pursuits! What sort of problems are being encountered with the small fuel injection system? Lack of fuel pressure -> inefficient nebulization/long duration injector cycle? Low-to-non-exsistent intake vacuum?
Hahaha yep! No HHO system either! :P IDK about fuel pressure. Higher pressure would probably atomize the fuel better. So far this is the best I have seen this engine run fuel injected. So we are making progress. I wonder if injector cycle duration might be a problem when we install it on the smaller displacement engine.
Well, "injector" is a slight misnomer; it functions more like a gate, as it doesn't actually supply any injection pressure or metering. a pulse of current opens the injector for the duration of the signal, and fuel will flow at the rate of pressure difference before and aft the injector and the amount of restriction present in the nozzle. In slightly older cars, the fuel rail would be pressurized and regulated to a set pressure in the 40 - 60 PSI range. Since the pressure is constant, the volume of fuel that's dispensed while the injector is open can be calculated precisely. I didn't see any sort of pressure regulation on the fuel delivery system on that engine; if that's the case, then it's difficult to determine (in advance) how long the injector should remain open to dispense the right amount of fuel. Also, as the fuel level changes, the amount of fuel being admitted during the injection cycle will vary, so the engine will swing from a rich to lean burn as the fuel level drops. Oh, and never handle a fully pressurized injector. It'll shoot gasoline into you like the hypospray dispensers in Star Trek.
Nevin Williams yes, you are correct. there is a fuel pressure regulator. If you follow the tube from the fuel bottle it goes to a T. one side goes to the in-line pump. then goes to another T. one side of that T goes to injector. other side goes to pressure regulator which returns the fuel back to the first T. We need to get a pressure gauge on the line so we can monitor pressure. I think only diesel engine injectors are dangerous because they run at thousands of psi. just like a pressure washer. This little thing uses like 40psi. it'd be like a little tickle.
Cool, I didn't see the extra plumbing... Might need an accumulator to smooth out the pressure; lots of hydraulic hammering when valves are popping open and shut; it's such a small circuit, too.
what are the width of those tires? I noticed that the rear one was thicker than some of the racing tires available on the market. with a thinner tire, you could achieve less rolling resistance, as long as braking is not an issue lol
So it's a Briggs LO206 that's been de-bored to less than half it's original displacement, crazy compression ratio, crazy rod ratio, running 4400rpm using a cam ground for a 7100rpm 206cc? How can it run lean enough to get that MPG while doing any work on planet Earth?
Nice man! I was in a SEM team for over 3 years, it was one of the most exciting things I did! To get over 2500mpg really requires creative engineering. At that point the smallest things start to matter. Things like viscous bearing friction, rotating body energy losses, thermal material properties, resonance etc. Even finding a way to keep the engine at operating temp because of the efficiency being to high to keep itself hot. Be prepared to learn a lot ;-)
I'm sure you could do a great job on that. Maybe it's nice to take us trough the process of doing research, designing, manufacturing, testing and reviewing the results. You can show young engineers why these projects are so valuable. I'm sad I didn't document those things when I was working on it.
Did you ever consider running a gasoline engine at its optimum rpm, or even a bespoke gasoline engine optimized to run at a set rpm and run a generator which in turn would charge a battery pack to power an electric drivetrain, essentially running the engine in an efficient way and also benefiting from the advantages of electric drive?
People really do not realize but it is the nerds that run the world. Hey I was wondering how is it possible for him to adjust the volumetric efficiency? The only way I can think of if it was blown or turbocharged and he was upping the boost but I did not see that it was blown or turbo'd.
Hahaha YES!!! I am not entirely sure. I don't fully understand it. I think it must be compensating for it not adjusting it. When the throttle valve is closed the volumetric efficiency would be very low. I think somehow it's tying throttle position, mass air flow, and engine displacement together to get the right amount of fuel into the engine. But yeah, that's only a guess. I can ask Jessie more about it next week if you'd like.
I had an aftermarket turbo and engine management computer in one of my cars for a while and had to go through a similar process to fine tune it for my particular engine. The process is generally to use the throttle and dyno (or varying slopes of road if in the car) to run the engine through each airflow/RPM combo in the table and use a wideband O2 sensor in the exhaust stream to measure combustion efficiency. You then adjust the injector duty cycle up or down per table cell depending on the desired change in air/fuel ratio. I assume one table showed the O2 sensor readings and the other was input for the injector duty cycle (which, combined with the nozzle size and fuel pressure, determines amount of fuel injected per combustion cycle). I guess the operator was new to it and was confused at how it works; I think setting the input tables sets the actual duty cycle rather than target combustion ratio, so the effect was probably to make the mix super-rich everywhere, leading to lots of unburnt fuel in the exhaust and thus a backfire!
There is always vacuum inside a cylinder unless an engine is blown or turbo'd. Volumetric efficiency is the measure of air volume/fuel mixture in a cylinder at BDC under RPM. The more efficient means the easier the mixture can enter the engine. The engine has to work to pull in that mixture and for every percentage that it lacks in volumetric efficiency is less fuel mixture to ignite and create power.
Is that Megasquirt efi? Datalogging will get your tables right. It just takes time, and for the engine to be run at as many throttle positions for every rpm in the rev range. 4100 rpms seems pretty fast for a briggs engine. Usually valves float at 3600. Maybe you could try something lighter. Surely someone could make some titanium valves, retainers, and locks for a gx35 motor.. maybe some beehive springs or at least some slightly stiffer valvesprings to control the valvetrain a little better. I'm assuming the valves and seats have been treated to a multi angle valve job. If not, more power and efficiency can be had there. You could turn the bottom of the valvestems in a lathe to allow more airflow. Maybe lighten the shaft rockers by drilling some holes to remove material. Keep after the engine tuning. Efi has the potential for better power at wot and better part throttle driveability once you get it tuned right. As long as you use a larger throttle body than a carb, you have the potential for better power everywhere in the rev range.. meaning you could make the bore smaller yet and still make the same power. Very interesting stuff. Subbed.
I expected to find smarter people in the comments section of a video like this. They must be people blowing in from crackpot free energy, boost your fuel efficiency with this trick oil companies don't want you to know videos...
2528mpg pulling what weight on the dyno? You did that calculation right? The resistance on the dyno was the weight of the vehicle +150 lbs (driver) right? That can cause a loss of 800mpg from your calculations if you didn't include the driver.
Vydonis oh no no no... that was the measured mpg that the car scored in the 2016 super mileage competition. I have no idea what efficiency they got on the dyno last year before the race. I'll have to ask them. checkout the article on it. news.psu.edu/story/415561/2016/06/22/academics/penn-state-behrend-supermileage-team-exceeds-2500-mpg
so 6hp down to 2.5hp? is that due to long stroke and small cylinder?. 18:1 compression is insane. most cars run wayyy less. is the compression the key to efficiency? im only asking bc i would love to get better mileage and as im soon to rebuild my trucks motor i would love advice on how to set it up. ive heard some big racing motors actually have great efficiency but bc they are run so hard they never get great mileage.
Pretty awesome, I love these little fuel injected engines! If they have the ability for closed loop control that would be killer, I have to go look it up now!
help im having problem using my horse pulling a hay rake only getting 1 hp and i need to get more work done faster, how do i increase volumetric efficiency of my horse to pull 2 hay rake? plz respond soon my parents do not know i use internet because im at gas station.
Buddy Rowe redbull iv drip the horse and install a cold air intake. If you don't mind a rebuild sooner ditch the air filter. Install an exhaust header to improve exhaust flow. If this isn't enough break in to your local dentist and steal their nitrous. Then funnel the nitrous and a redbull into the horse, but only do this at full throttle.
guten tag my friend, i use ebay cold air intake but the horse did not like it much when i tighten band clamp around its face. i buy 4 into 1 header but my horse only has one exhaust so i turn exhaust around backward to make 1 into 4 and it very much did not like me install it as he kick me. our local dentist does house visit and he say he does not have nitrous. i replace the water trough in stable with redbull and my horse die the next day, he did not stop running in pasture for 4 hour.
+Guy Hawke water injection possibly, alcohol would be against the rules. We would like to try diesel. The problem is diesel injectors this small don't really exist. So we would need to have a company custom make one for us
2500 miles? was the test done properly for the mileage? was 1 gallon stuck inside the engine and run until it stopped. or is the range calculated with just math? because i seriously doubt 1 gallon can get you 2500 miles.
Hey, Im a mechanical engineer at cal poly pomona and we are starting a super milage team here this year. I wanted to know if you had a 3d model of the b&s 206 that you could share with us?
That's a pretty cool and insightful look at what they are doing. I wonder, is that B&S engine a platform requirement for a broader competition class? Is there a competitive low milage race for this?
In F-1 V8 engine, valves are actuated not by springs mostly because springs cant handle those RPM's, instead by liquid nitrogen , its most stable substance in temperature difference.
That's the dyno. It's a DC motor which we have calibrated and made efficiency curves for. We use it as a starter motor and then flip it over to generator mode to put load on our engine. We load it up with a bunch of 200watt light bulbs. I don't know for sure but I would say at least 1.5KW.
valve float..yeah that mechanically can be addressed with stiffer valve springs. Will slightly increase rotating resistance of the engine though. V.E. of naturally aspirated internal combustion engines can surpass 100%...maybe not with 1cyl though.
Yeah, this would be really interesting to hear more about. I have a small engine missing a carb that I was almost considering doing fuel injection on, and if I ever have the chance then duplicating this would be interesting for a efficient generator engine.
that engine connected to a generator possibly by a Chas campbell pulley system, then to a electronic speed controller and from there to an electric motor.
+copiczz preacher well this year we got 2418 at competition. Competition is at Eaton 1.6 mile test track in Missouri. Here are the results of you're interested: students.sae.org/cds/supermileage/results/
thank you for the reply this video is really interesting and has inspired me to achieve maximum mpg in my diesel van the less the barrel baron's earn the better imo
+Jari Szczuka chain might be more effect at lower speeds and higher torque. We are running it at pretty high speeds so I think a chain would slap around a lot and waste energy. Not really sure tho. It's a good question. I'll ask the guys tomorrow.
When he said that at 21.5 to 1 compression the engine gets warm and keeps running even without firing sparkplugs... does it continue to burn the same amount of fuel? 2500 mpg... my car gets 22...Im confused...Can Makerj101 or someone explain how that works...
+Don Gawgon it gets such fuel mileage because the engine is so small, the car is only about 100lb made mostly of carbon fiber, super low rolling resistance tires and drive train, very aerodynamic body, and we use a method called burn and coast. So the engines efficiency only really takes much of an effect after you reduce all the other resistances. The high compression ratio is what makes the engine itself a lot more efficient. And also the fact that we don't have to keep a catalytic converter happy so we can burn whatever AFR we want. Burn and coast makes a huge impact as well. We burn the engine for about 5-10 seconds to get up to speed and the shut it off and coat for about 2-3 minutes. Your car only gets 22mpg because the engine is huge compared to this engine. If you half the size of your engine you could realistically get 44mpg. A lot of European cars get 80mpg or higher. This is because their cars are a lot lighter, less safety features to meet so they can have a lot less weight. Less weight means smaller engine. Thus hugger mpg. Also Americans like big cars with big engines. We like to be able to hit highway speed half way on the entrance ramp. A lot of European cars don't have the engine to get going that fast.
Hey Thanks for the reply and it makes sense about the size and weight... still not sure about why the engine keeps running without sparkplugs firing... is the compression alone enough to ignite the fuel?
with a micro polished internals and tighter clearances on bearings, along with being able to run slightly lean with the fuel injection you might be able to take advantage of the longer burn time. I run a mix of 1/3 E85 to 2/3 90 octane in my 9:1 CR car engine and get more power and better MPG, just a thought something you might want to play with....
Wow ! Thank you for allowing us to see the club. I am amazed and congratulate at the MPG achieved. I am also wondering how this modified power unit compares to say a standard consumer portable electric generator in terms of it's efficiency ?
I didn't the whole thing before asking. 100 Octane. That still sounds a little low for such high compression. Some single engine aircraft run 110 octane I believe.
Makes you wonder what would happen if you built the engine as a hit and miss setup with the fuel controlled by an injector. Then again you could skeletanize the crankshaft area of the engine then seal it back up with fiberglass or carbon depending on temperature needs as a way to shave the pounds off. Just enough metal to have the structure with a light weight material sealing to hold the oil in.
You can open the throttle all the way and not have the pumping losses or lower volumetric efficiency & combustion pressures (less heat). A bigger engine will spin the rear tire and you can't run it at full throttle.
I'm not sure I understand.. why do they need so much mileage on the racecar? It seems like there is a trade-off for power in order to allow for these massive gains in mileage.
It is a competition against other schools to see who can get the highest fuel efficiency. Yes, there are trade offs for power and comfort. Power and comfort are easy to do. Efficiency is not. It's a high engineering challenge to obtain such high efficiencies. Makes better engineers and it's a lot of fun.
I'm part of the super consumption club, Iv'e managed to get my LS3 down to 6mpg
Thee Adjudicator it's not about the miles a gallon it's the smiles per gallon
I wanna be in the super consumption club! my small block is about 8mpg!
808 Tait lol try 5 mph in a 7.4 liter Pontiac v8
Mpg*
Conidro I love those engines! 455 right? fuel economy means nothing if you're having fun every time you drive!!
A lot of this is above my head! I'm an old school hot rodder! But I love what y'all are accomplishing with your studies and work. Hats off to all of you!
we need vtec up in that bitch
Rafael Santana its a meme, aka not meant to be taken seriusly
As a wise man in a Toyota Prius once said: Goats are like mushrooms, if you shoot a duck I’m scared of toasters.
If valve float is keeping you from optimum RPM, have you tried stiffer springs or lighter valves?
the heavier the springs, the more power is being wasted in each cycle trying to open the valves, reducing available work being produced, basically, fuel wasted due to more work being used to open the valves. To prevent valve float they could come up with a creative solution yes, but I wouldn't see why they need to rev the engine higher as the higher it revs the more fuel it uses. I would too, not want to rev a motor with 20sum:1 compression as I feel that the whole room would become rod territory :D
@@unitytwins6652 ..and? You probably achieve more power when you reach higher rpm so it won't actually matter
If they would have gone to an overhead cam, they could have eliminated the mass of those pushrods and possibly the rocker arms using a very light timing belt. That would have reduced frictional losses and given it a higher RPM before valve float using those same springs...
21:1 compression ratio that's massive for SI. Maybe the combustion chamber is long and skinny enough at TDC to cool the fuel and resist detonation?
+ghetto bikelife the combustible chamber is pretty long. When the engine heats up enough we do have problems with detonating. The engine never heats up much in the competition because it is only run for 10 or 15 seconds at a time. When testing we can turn the ignition off once it's gotten warm and it will diesel and continue to run. Choke comes in handy then lol
Sounds like a SCCI engine to me.
if its direct injected they can diesel it and control detonatiom
You can have a high compression ratio and a lot of advance on the timing if you don't open the throttle very far. Did he say they were running at 4300 rpm and 22 mph during the contest? Seems like a high rpm for milage.
The mean piston speed is actually on the low end of the spectrum due to the shorter briggs crank. Peak efficiency even at full throttle maxes at ~4k rpm.
Put a eBay turbo kit and slam it on tarmacs and daily it
ILikeFryz lol the haggard garage way right here
Next video: the ebay turbo focked me!!
ILikeFryz the nerds reading this comment won't have a clue what you guys are referring to…while I'm over here laughing my ass off Lmao
I was not expecting to see this here
Cam Currier haha fancy seeing you here
I've managed to get my truck down to 4mpg pretty impressive right?
I got 2 mpg the other day. 2017 6.0L 2500 silverado 4x4
Matt Drew l got .5mpg going down hill while being towed.
Ayyy! I remember watching your videos 6 years ago and wanting to start a youtube channel. Glad you're doing well in college. I was going to go to Penn State but ended up going to OSU. I'll definitely stay tuned
I've been a racer, machinist, welder, designer and fabricator my entire life so I really understand the engineering part of it. I have always been very interested in projects like this and doing anything different. I have also worked in the TV and film industry for many years. Now I'm mostly doing video work again but for myself and only what I want to do, things like social media and TV commercials, filming plays, weddings, training videos, music videos etc. I'd love to talk to you guys about maybe doing a short documentary about your build leading up to and through the competition.
Hey, I know that this is an older video but this really peaked my interest because the project that you guys are working on is essentially many of my main interests combined into one machine, I have also been considering going to Penn State university when I am out of highschool and would like to know what you're majoring in.
Good old TunerStudio... By the way, what ECU is that?
It reminds me about MegaSquirt MS1 a bit.
would putting in stronger valve springs help with valve float? id assume it would
Note the glaring lack of gas vapour bubblers. :)
I think it's terrific that you've found this club that ties into so many of your long standing pursuits!
What sort of problems are being encountered with the small fuel injection system? Lack of fuel pressure -> inefficient nebulization/long duration injector cycle? Low-to-non-exsistent intake vacuum?
Hahaha yep! No HHO system either! :P
IDK about fuel pressure. Higher pressure would probably atomize the fuel better. So far this is the best I have seen this engine run fuel injected. So we are making progress. I wonder if injector cycle duration might be a problem when we install it on the smaller displacement engine.
Well, "injector" is a slight misnomer; it functions more like a gate, as it doesn't actually supply any injection pressure or metering. a pulse of current opens the injector for the duration of the signal, and fuel will flow at the rate of pressure difference before and aft the injector and the amount of restriction present in the nozzle.
In slightly older cars, the fuel rail would be pressurized and regulated to a set pressure in the 40 - 60 PSI range. Since the pressure is constant, the volume of fuel that's dispensed while the injector is open can be calculated precisely.
I didn't see any sort of pressure regulation on the fuel delivery system on that engine; if that's the case, then it's difficult to determine (in advance) how long the injector should remain open to dispense the right amount of fuel. Also, as the fuel level changes, the amount of fuel being admitted during the injection cycle will vary, so the engine will swing from a rich to lean burn as the fuel level drops.
Oh, and never handle a fully pressurized injector. It'll shoot gasoline into you like the hypospray dispensers in Star Trek.
Nevin Williams yes, you are correct. there is a fuel pressure regulator. If you follow the tube from the fuel bottle it goes to a T. one side goes to the in-line pump. then goes to another T. one side of that T goes to injector. other side goes to pressure regulator which returns the fuel back to the first T. We need to get a pressure gauge on the line so we can monitor pressure.
I think only diesel engine injectors are dangerous because they run at thousands of psi. just like a pressure washer. This little thing uses like 40psi. it'd be like a little tickle.
Cool, I didn't see the extra plumbing...
Might need an accumulator to smooth out the pressure; lots of hydraulic hammering when valves are popping open and shut; it's such a small circuit, too.
Could there be any advantage with using a higher fuel pressure, or multiple shortened pulses from the fuel injector, per cycle?
Is that Megasquirt? Awesome that you managed to achieve such high compression ratio too
Since your shrinking the piston size and making the stroke longer does that mean if you modded it it could run diesel?
Can you turbo it or use the exhaust heat to run a steam turbine since you are running constant speed for long lengths of time?
Wonder if grinding that stock cam down some would improve efficiency even more.. longer duration perhaps?
More than 18:1? What kind of fuel does it use?
Are you using the Dyno to simulate a load to calculate accurate mileage under a real load?
what are the width of those tires? I noticed that the rear one was thicker than some of the racing tires available on the market. with a thinner tire, you could achieve less rolling resistance, as long as braking is not an issue lol
Is this filmed in Williamsport?
what kind of gears and belts are those on the engine in the beginning of the video?
So it's a Briggs LO206 that's been de-bored to less than half it's original displacement, crazy compression ratio, crazy rod ratio, running 4400rpm using a cam ground for a 7100rpm 206cc? How can it run lean enough to get that MPG while doing any work on planet Earth?
Which is why making a new camshaft that hit's peak efficiency in the middle of the ~2,000-4,500 rpm rev range is a good idea.
How do you think they dealt with having to change the connecting rod?
Do you work at Balfurd's by any chance?
SUPER COOL PROJECT 👍👍👍. Like these type of video's very much, so please show more 🙏🙏🙏
Nice man! I was in a SEM team for over 3 years, it was one of the most exciting things I did!
To get over 2500mpg really requires creative engineering. At that point the smallest things start to matter. Things like viscous bearing friction, rotating body energy losses, thermal material properties, resonance etc. Even finding a way to keep the engine at operating temp because of the efficiency being to high to keep itself hot.
Be prepared to learn a lot ;-)
Yeah! It is incredible. Honestly I don't think their steering alignment is very good. Might be something I want to work on.
I'm sure you could do a great job on that. Maybe it's nice to take us trough the process of doing research, designing, manufacturing, testing and reviewing the results. You can show young engineers why these projects are so valuable. I'm sad I didn't document those things when I was working on it.
Yeah I can definitely do that if I decide to redesign the steering.
Do they compete in Shell Eco-Marathon?
No, unfortunately we do not.
Did you ever consider running a gasoline engine at its optimum rpm, or even a bespoke gasoline engine optimized to run at a set rpm and run a generator which in turn would charge a battery pack to power an electric drivetrain, essentially running the engine in an efficient way and also benefiting from the advantages of electric drive?
People really do not realize but it is the nerds that run the world. Hey I was wondering how is it possible for him to adjust the volumetric efficiency? The only way I can think of if it was blown or turbocharged and he was upping the boost but I did not see that it was blown or turbo'd.
Hahaha YES!!! I am not entirely sure. I don't fully understand it. I think it must be compensating for it not adjusting it. When the throttle valve is closed the volumetric efficiency would be very low. I think somehow it's tying throttle position, mass air flow, and engine displacement together to get the right amount of fuel into the engine. But yeah, that's only a guess. I can ask Jessie more about it next week if you'd like.
I had an aftermarket turbo and engine management computer in one of my cars for a while and had to go through a similar process to fine tune it for my particular engine. The process is generally to use the throttle and dyno (or varying slopes of road if in the car) to run the engine through each airflow/RPM combo in the table and use a wideband O2 sensor in the exhaust stream to measure combustion efficiency. You then adjust the injector duty cycle up or down per table cell depending on the desired change in air/fuel ratio.
I assume one table showed the O2 sensor readings and the other was input for the injector duty cycle (which, combined with the nozzle size and fuel pressure, determines amount of fuel injected per combustion cycle). I guess the operator was new to it and was confused at how it works; I think setting the input tables sets the actual duty cycle rather than target combustion ratio, so the effect was probably to make the mix super-rich everywhere, leading to lots of unburnt fuel in the exhaust and thus a backfire!
Dave Brittain i think they test the volumetric efficiency by regulating throttle, and creating vacuum inside the cilinder.
There is always vacuum inside a cylinder unless an engine is blown or turbo'd. Volumetric efficiency is the measure of air volume/fuel mixture in a cylinder at BDC under RPM. The more efficient means the easier the mixture can enter the engine. The engine has to work to pull in that mixture and for every percentage that it lacks in volumetric efficiency is less fuel mixture to ignite and create power.
Oh, thank you, i didn't know that. But there is no vacuum when the throttle is fully open. Am i right?
Do you have a link to that engine's specs?
Is that Megasquirt efi? Datalogging will get your tables right. It just takes time, and for the engine to be run at as many throttle positions for every rpm in the rev range. 4100 rpms seems pretty fast for a briggs engine. Usually valves float at 3600. Maybe you could try something lighter. Surely someone could make some titanium valves, retainers, and locks for a gx35 motor.. maybe some beehive springs or at least some slightly stiffer valvesprings to control the valvetrain a little better. I'm assuming the valves and seats have been treated to a multi angle valve job. If not, more power and efficiency can be had there. You could turn the bottom of the valvestems in a lathe to allow more airflow. Maybe lighten the shaft rockers by drilling some holes to remove material.
Keep after the engine tuning. Efi has the potential for better power at wot and better part throttle driveability once you get it tuned right. As long as you use a larger throttle body than a carb, you have the potential for better power everywhere in the rev range.. meaning you could make the bore smaller yet and still make the same power. Very interesting stuff.
Subbed.
What do I have to go to school for to learn all this?
Is there a reason you can't use gasoline turbines? Are they not more thermally efficient?
I wonder what these guys think about the Honda GC160 design. It has a plastic overhead cam and an in-oil timing belt.
do the rules allow water injection?
So they use the stroke of a 6hp engine and the piston from a 1hp engine, with the 6 hp head and cam? more or less?
Custom head, but otherwise correct.
love those engine videos
how will 2500mpg affect the petrodollar?
21:1 why are you only running 100 octane race fuel?
Wackypocket standard fuel
huh?
Wackypocket standardized fuel for the event.
Wackypocket they run on iso-octane
It says "There was a problem while playing
(Playback ID: xyKpRnarh_xv9ktf)
but the ID changes every time I tap to retry
#Bugs4Lyfe
XDDD
What kind of fuel are they running? Gasoline even high octane racing gas will donate way before 18 to 1.
Barry Fields the tiny combustion chamber would help alot. Due to the scale comparisons to automotive examples aren't very useful.
I expected to find smarter people in the comments section of a video like this. They must be people blowing in from crackpot free energy, boost your fuel efficiency with this trick oil companies don't want you to know videos...
dont forget the cold air intake folks
Lawrence Lentini it's fine, get a electric, better in EVERY way.
Sterling engines can achieve 50% efficiency converting heat into mechanical energy.
Great MPG, 0-60 Eventually?
2528mpg pulling what weight on the dyno? You did that calculation right? The resistance on the dyno was the weight of the vehicle +150 lbs (driver) right? That can cause a loss of 800mpg from your calculations if you didn't include the driver.
Vydonis oh no no no... that was the measured mpg that the car scored in the 2016 super mileage competition. I have no idea what efficiency they got on the dyno last year before the race. I'll have to ask them. checkout the article on it. news.psu.edu/story/415561/2016/06/22/academics/penn-state-behrend-supermileage-team-exceeds-2500-mpg
so 6hp down to 2.5hp? is that due to long stroke and small cylinder?. 18:1 compression is insane. most cars run wayyy less. is the compression the key to efficiency? im only asking bc i would love to get better mileage and as im soon to rebuild my trucks motor i would love advice on how to set it up. ive heard some big racing motors actually have great efficiency but bc they are run so hard they never get great mileage.
this is on a megasquirt or a speeduino?
It's actually running a microsquirt ECU
Pretty awesome, I love these little fuel injected engines! If they have the ability for closed loop control that would be killer, I have to go look it up now!
help im having problem using my horse pulling a hay rake only getting 1 hp and i need to get more work done faster, how do i increase volumetric efficiency of my horse to pull 2 hay rake? plz respond soon my parents do not know i use internet because im at gas station.
Buddy Rowe redbull iv drip the horse and install a cold air intake. If you don't mind a rebuild sooner ditch the air filter. Install an exhaust header to improve exhaust flow. If this isn't enough break in to your local dentist and steal their nitrous. Then funnel the nitrous and a redbull into the horse, but only do this at full throttle.
guten tag my friend, i use ebay cold air intake but the horse did not like it much when i tighten band clamp around its face. i buy 4 into 1 header but my horse only has one exhaust so i turn exhaust around backward to make 1 into 4 and it very much did not like me install it as he kick me. our local dentist does house visit and he say he does not have nitrous. i replace the water trough in stable with redbull and my horse die the next day, he did not stop running in pasture for 4 hour.
Look into into the Aprillia DiTech 50 direct air over fuel injection system.
Awesome choice to use a megasquirt for the fuel injection
Can you add water / alcohol injection to fight the detonation? I thought Diesel engines were the most efficient. Too heavy tho...
+Guy Hawke water injection possibly, alcohol would be against the rules. We would like to try diesel. The problem is diesel injectors this small don't really exist. So we would need to have a company custom make one for us
I think they could deal (and regulate) ignition timing based on rpm and other parameters.
Stupid question: did you have to be a mech engineering student/ 'car guy' to join the club, or they taught you how to build one afterwards?
They welcome anyone who who is willing to learn and work. You don't need to know much about engines and whatnot as they will teach you.
Excellent! I will stay tuned.
Have yall tried any experiments with oils? Maybe some e85? It doesn't have the same thermal mass as gasoline, but it's knock resistance is amazing.
The Cummins, undoubtedly, came from the Jamestown, NY plant.
I dont say that this engine didnt work well, but 2500 miles per gallon to move how much weigth?
2500 miles? was the test done properly for the mileage? was 1 gallon stuck inside the engine and run until it stopped. or is the range calculated with just math? because i seriously doubt 1 gallon can get you 2500 miles.
Hey, Im a mechanical engineer at cal poly pomona and we are starting a super milage team here this year. I wanted to know if you had a 3d model of the b&s 206 that you could share with us?
That's a pretty cool and insightful look at what they are doing. I wonder, is that B&S engine a platform requirement for a broader competition class? Is there a competitive low milage race for this?
Great video. Really informative. I would love to see a break down of that engine.
In F-1 V8 engine, valves are actuated not by springs mostly because springs cant handle those RPM's, instead by liquid nitrogen , its most stable substance in temperature difference.
Told you I'd check some later videos. I forgot Behrend had a supermileage team. Good luck. For the Glory.
Man.. Wish I had something like that in my university, that looked pretty awesome to be a part of
IrishSkruffles get some engineering students together and start a supermillage club!
He looks like the dude from "that 70's show" XD
Just needs 'Aviator Sunnies'. :)
try about 3 in a cadillac 500
Very nice fella. Keep up the great work too.
What was that air filter?
incredible MPG , Great stuff man .. Thumbs up !! Was that a generator on the end of the engine driven by a belt ?? If so what is the output of it ??
That's the dyno. It's a DC motor which we have calibrated and made efficiency curves for. We use it as a starter motor and then flip it over to generator mode to put load on our engine. We load it up with a bunch of 200watt light bulbs. I don't know for sure but I would say at least 1.5KW.
Ahh, That's cool ! Thanks for the info ..
Makerj101 its a brushless dc motor do you have connected with a bridge rectifier to make the power back to dc because this outputs 3phase ac
has it v-tec or stuff?
valve float..yeah that mechanically can be addressed with stiffer valve springs. Will slightly increase rotating resistance of the engine though.
V.E. of naturally aspirated internal combustion engines can surpass 100%...maybe not with 1cyl though.
Yeah, this would be really interesting to hear more about. I have a small engine missing a carb that I was almost considering doing fuel injection on, and if I ever have the chance then duplicating this would be interesting for a efficient generator engine.
very nice suggestion fuel injection and turbo also who needs fuel efficiency when you need power
American muscle
6:20 b's my briggs and stratton intek 900 I rev it up to 6700rpms and no valve float unless you changed your spring to some really light ones then
How come its belt driven and not chain driven? As far as i know you get less power loss from a chain.
that engine connected to a generator possibly by a Chas campbell pulley system, then to a electronic speed controller and from there to an electric motor.
whats the mpg under load and top speed under load vehicle plus driver ? no i did not watch the entire vid encase he answered my questions
+copiczz preacher well this year we got 2418 at competition. Competition is at Eaton 1.6 mile test track in Missouri. Here are the results of you're interested: students.sae.org/cds/supermileage/results/
thank you for the reply this video is really interesting and has inspired me to achieve maximum mpg in my diesel van the less the barrel baron's earn the better imo
dont know for shure , but isn't an belt les eficient than a shain?
+Jari Szczuka chain might be more effect at lower speeds and higher torque. We are running it at pretty high speeds so I think a chain would slap around a lot and waste energy. Not really sure tho. It's a good question. I'll ask the guys tomorrow.
Makerj101 true👌👍
When he said that at 21.5 to 1 compression the engine gets warm and keeps running even without firing sparkplugs... does it continue to burn the same amount of fuel? 2500 mpg... my car gets 22...Im confused...Can Makerj101 or someone explain how that works...
+Don Gawgon it gets such fuel mileage because the engine is so small, the car is only about 100lb made mostly of carbon fiber, super low rolling resistance tires and drive train, very aerodynamic body, and we use a method called burn and coast. So the engines efficiency only really takes much of an effect after you reduce all the other resistances. The high compression ratio is what makes the engine itself a lot more efficient. And also the fact that we don't have to keep a catalytic converter happy so we can burn whatever AFR we want. Burn and coast makes a huge impact as well. We burn the engine for about 5-10 seconds to get up to speed and the shut it off and coat for about 2-3 minutes.
Your car only gets 22mpg because the engine is huge compared to this engine. If you half the size of your engine you could realistically get 44mpg. A lot of European cars get 80mpg or higher. This is because their cars are a lot lighter, less safety features to meet so they can have a lot less weight. Less weight means smaller engine. Thus hugger mpg. Also Americans like big cars with big engines. We like to be able to hit highway speed half way on the entrance ramp. A lot of European cars don't have the engine to get going that fast.
Hey Thanks for the reply and it makes sense about the size and weight... still not sure about why the engine keeps running without sparkplugs firing... is the compression alone enough to ignite the fuel?
at that CR why don't you run E85-E100?
E85 gets 25% fewer MPGs than gasoline due to its lower energy content.
with a micro polished internals and tighter clearances on bearings, along with being able to run slightly lean with the fuel injection you might be able to take advantage of the longer burn time. I run a mix of 1/3 E85 to 2/3 90 octane in my 9:1 CR car engine and get more power and better MPG, just a thought something you might want to play with....
Build a gas vapor system for it, see if that increases your efficiency. I would be curious
This is great I wish I was part of a group like this pure awesomeness please keep posting
Wow ! Thank you for allowing us to see the club. I am amazed and congratulate at the MPG achieved. I am also wondering how this modified power unit compares to say a standard consumer portable electric generator in terms of it's efficiency ?
That‘s cool as hell 👍 keep up the great work guys
LOL When you said CAT, I said nope Cummins, then there was your sign hehehe.
Wouldn't chains provide a lot more efficiency than belt drives?
too much weight!
Brake specific fuel consumption?
Probably 400-600 g/KWh... not very good, but the car super efficient, so you get a good MPG value.
Very cool dude, would love to see more of this soon.
Pete.
What do you mean it's a weekly thing? Isn't the club constantly working on getting the vehicle ready for competition?
What is Deesul ?
Interesting, do you know what the brains of the EFI system is? Just curious what sort of computer exists for a single cylinder application.
check out cars and cameras they put an efi on a single cyl. there are kits to do it
gadget73 it uses a MicroSquirt ECU. it supports 1-8 cylinders and fuel injection
jeep2003 yep, thanks. It uses a MicroSquirt ECU
What octane of fuel are you using?
I didn't the whole thing before asking. 100 Octane. That still sounds a little low for such high compression. Some single engine aircraft run 110 octane I believe.
Makes you wonder what would happen if you built the engine as a hit and miss setup with the fuel controlled by an injector.
Then again you could skeletanize the crankshaft area of the engine then seal it back up with fiberglass or carbon depending on temperature needs as a way to shave the pounds off. Just enough metal to have the structure with a light weight material sealing to hold the oil in.
i like how this was made using a predator engine. great job guys
What role does de-rating the engine to 2.5 hp play a thermal efficiency?
You can open the throttle all the way and not have the pumping losses or lower volumetric efficiency & combustion pressures (less heat). A bigger engine will spin the rear tire and you can't run it at full throttle.
How long have you went to PSB.
Tri-Force Squad Gaming this is my second semester.
Same maybe i will see you around campus.
Tri-Force Squad Gaming you go to Penn State!? cool! What's your major?
My major is EET with a minor in computer Engineering.
If you need to know where any thing is around town feel free to just shoot me a message.
I'm not sure I understand.. why do they need so much mileage on the racecar? It seems like there is a trade-off for power in order to allow for these massive gains in mileage.
It is a competition against other schools to see who can get the highest fuel efficiency. Yes, there are trade offs for power and comfort. Power and comfort are easy to do. Efficiency is not. It's a high engineering challenge to obtain such high efficiencies. Makes better engineers and it's a lot of fun.
Ya the race is actually mileage not speed.
Arya Javaheri
it's not how fast you go it's how fast you get there. also looks like a modified 1919 Indian engine .
Cummins m11 is used in marine and semi trucks. Most truck have 13 or 15 liter engines but some do have 11.
love to see it weekly !
The Cummins cutaway engine is probably on loan from Cummins Jamestown Engine Plant about a 1 hour drive east of behrend.