NO ONE Has Done This Before | Fan Showdown S4E10
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 18 มิ.ย. 2024
- WELCOME back to the fan showdown season 4 episode 10. Have you ever looked at a PC fan and thought, that thing is designed backwards. Well Andrew has and today we see a fan set up unlike anything we have ever seen before. The Neater Cheater Beater takes how normal fans are designed and flips it on its head, up until today no one has done this before.
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Have you re-tested the Cheater to make sure your fan motor has not degraded any from all of the test?
It has to be something like that, I cannot believe the cheater has such a good design, something is wrong.
He replaced the motor a couple of times if I recall.
Season 4, Episode 6
If you look at the rpm then you'll see that the Neater Cheater Beater has a higher rpm than the Cheater while having a bit lower air flow. This in turn tells me that just minor changes to blade angle and shape could improve the flow. Overall the design of the Neater Cheater Beater isn't that different from what we see in other high flow applications. The drag of the wind tunnel itself causes some backpressure that can change the performance. So a different design of the wind tunnel could switch them around. Even air humidity can play a role.
But one factor that I also think could play a role since the items aren't polished is how they are printed. The surface pattern can make a difference. Think of the reason why golf balls have a dimpled surface - it's to lower the drag compared to a smooth ball.
@@ehsnils Also, pushing the fan toward the frame (because of the reversed design) might cause the fan to spin irregularily because you're adding a force in a direction the frame and possibly the motor is not designed for.
Minor modifications are good, if they are minor. I think that the design needs to get an opportunity to shine, as do most people. Things like clearances, fitment, maybe even slight modifications to center of mass are ok if the shape, aerodynamic properties, remains mostly the same.
Definitely. Much better to see a fan tested than not, as long as the modifications don't change it completely and its basically the same, just with a few tweaks so we can actually see it tested
I’ll second that.
Agreed. Make any minor modifications necessary to test without changing the overall design.
Yes, agreed.
Which to add, regarding what you mentioned about adjusting CoM...
Our ceiling fans had came with adhesive backed lead sheets, to use in case there was excessive imbalance. I think that would be perfect for use on these projects... It's thin stuff, although much thicker than aluminum tape, so it wouldn't impact the performance in terms of drag.
Granted, it can take some time to dial in where to apply pieces, AND how big a piece is needed.... But I've successfully used it to balance the blades on multiple oscillating house fans, never having a single applied piece release after years of use (one fan runs nearly 24/7, with a couple pieces attached way out at the tips).
Just a thought... 😊
Exactly. I'd not even mind if he mirrored a fan that was accidentally designed the wrong way around (I think we had that in season 1).
I feel like we've reached a point where there should be different categories for the fan showdown results.
Fan blades only - Realistic and stays within the confines of the housing
Oversized - Has extra funnels and external housing attachments, still within the confines of 120mm housing or close to, eg Cheater and the Yangblade
Contraption - Has multiple moving parts and/or extends beyond the confines of the 120mm housing. e.g Bladeless, and the Gear one
This! Would love to see the leaderboard rearranged by these categories.
+1 thats a great idea!
Really like this idea! Hopefully we can have this in season 5!
I approve.
Standard, extra, and unlimited class.
With the amount of heavy and off balance fans that have been run on that motor, it would probably be a good idea to verify that the bearings haven't degraded and caused a slight reduction in torque output.
we need to use the original fan as a calibration. Retest, if the same numbers - no degradation
I miss the on-camera physical leaderboard switching from first season. Seeing the top fans physically next to each other each episode means more to me than seeing the list of names in the spreadsheet.
The turbo and supercharger mini series spin-off was interesting.
anyone else didnt take the jab and didnt get rona?
it seems like only people who have the jab get it.
@@jimmyhackers8980 that's not what the above comment is about
Where did he make a video about a turbo? I'd love to see that!
@@jimmyhackers8980 nah. People were getting rona before the vaccine against it was developed, or do you have some kind of selective memory loss? A disease exists and people try making a vaccine against it, like polio and every other vaccine.
Significant amount of people were dying from it before the vaccine was available. After the vaccine was available, vaccinated people just need a few days of bedrest if they ever contract it.
@@snjert8406 i think the turbo vid is not yet done.
As a 3D printing enthusiast. I appreciate that you'll take a little extra time to make it work.'cause files don't always line up with the real world that well.
I trust your judgement to make changes that allow the fan to work "as intended", I think small changes to that effect are good
the cheater beater and the yin yang genuinely shocked me! best series on youtube keep it up
making the yin yng with two blades to have mass symmetry would be interesting
the cheater has fallen, you HAVE to update the list or redo the top 10 results. the unswirler when sealed properly beat the cheater.
Seal the cheater
He said it didnt count because it was a modification. If the original design included seals he would have included it.
What episode was the unswirler?
@@buildingsalvage S4 E9
@@graysonhoang3126 Yeah but I think this is a stupid precedent
you put almost any fan in the cheater housing and it will do fantastic. It's no longer the fan but the housing around it that matters. There really should be two categories, normal fans and fans with extra parts.
I think what's happening with the yin/yang fan is that booger-lookin' thing is bending out a bit due to centrifugal inertia and changing the balance. jus' my two bits.
I suspect this is the issue there, as well.
I think he just balanced it in an axis, he should have made many cuts and check if all where close.
i think the air the blade is pushing is making it tilt towards it too
Probably the whole fan being mounted slightly askew, it's pretty sensitive to that. The booger-on-a-stick balance arm is actually quite stiff. I did put a bearing seat in the top, maybe I'll submit a shroud that reaches over the front and engages with a bearing there. Performance really suffered in my testing any time it got off kilter enough to rub like that.
@@YOEL_44 It's balanced overall, plus sliced into top/bottom sections. Balanced great in my testing, if I could get it mounted straight so that I couldn't see the tip wiggle at low speed, it would do high speed silently.
I'm fine with minor modifications, if it means we get to see interesting stuff running
That is a fuckin massive compressor housing. I'm curious to see how that works out
Aight, now let’s see gaskets become a standard since you now have the means to print them
ya and the unswirler needs to be in hte top spot unless the cheater when gasketed beats it. he has to do the top 10 over.
definitely with the close up shots, swipe a flame over some of the prints before to get rid of all the stringies. amazing episode as always thank you!!
oh i wanted to ask, you just take g-code or did you do infill? the balance issue might have been an infill problem
Yea definitely please make minor necessary adjustments. 🙏🏾 love your vids and this series. Can't wait to see more iterations of the cheater, supercharger and, your turbo design!!
One bladed fan will have asymmetrical forces when it spins up so just doing the mass calculation can't catch all the problems.
6:57 that is one beautiful FPS and RPM
The Neater Cheater Beater looks a lot like a model of ventilation fans from the 50's. I've recently seen a similar design used as a ventilation fan for bathrooms, though the housing was plastic instead of metal as in the kitchen fans, and more square'ish than the sleek motor housing used in the old fans. I have no idea if these were used all over the world or if they were a Scandinavian thing. There were one in the kitchen of the house my mother grew up in. It was installed sometime in the 40's or early 50's and as late as the early 2K it was still working flawlessly. When I was a kid I was totally fascinated by that fan as it was so quiet. Every time we visited my uncle who lived there I went to the kitchen and turned it on just because it was so smooth. So not an entirely new idea. Still a lot of work put into the design and the performance shows that there is something to it.
6:11. If this fan's a-rockin', don't come a-knockin'. Lol
run the neater cheater backwards (conventional direction) to see if the flipped design made a difference.
i thought the same!
Have you ever calculated the theoretical maximum airflow for the power the motor is capable of? Be interesting to see how efficient the different designs are against the theoretical optimum.
That would be a good idea, and it'd be a good way to tell when they've gotten as close as possible to said maximum.
Want to share how you'd do that?
@@dgkimpton a metric shit ton of math
@@theocgaming9433 Just a bit of algebra.
Yeah, no, there is a reason all aerodynamic designs are developed in windtunnels, because it's basically impossible to calculate.
Airflow, pressure, turbulence and drag are all variables that affect eachother, change one and the others change as well.
3:30 "Do I have a fan?" Chuckled at this one 😂
2:04 “more refined version of the tulip”
YOO, he still remembers my entry!! In that case, allow me to re design it for you
literally bought a printer b/c of this series. One day when we're in delrin territory, ill send one in.
Suggestion for the next season-- add an additional smoke test pass, where you introduce the smoke perpendicularly to the direction of the fan, to see how well fans might pull in air without the momentum of the smoke being in the same direction. Not sure what info that would help, I just think it would be visually neat, especially if filmed top down so we can see the are in front of the fan be pulled in.
I kinda feel the cheater beater is reversed anyway.... normally for a subsonic flow you need a pointy long exhaust fairing rater than intake one.
If you're moving (like a bullet does) it helps opening the air, but you're right, when you're sucking the air in, what you want is a proper exhaust, as the pressure will guide the air in anyway.
I binge watched a lot of the show today and the one thing I’d love to see would be combining the contra rotating fan with the cheater shroud. Maybe even with some gaskets now that those are on the table. Sounds like it’d have a lot of potential!
An unbalanced Yin and Yang fan... Now that's hilariously ironic!
LOL. Good catch.
Small suggestion, make a new series/category for “art” fans, not “function” something different, like the tulip and yang, but not focus on the art per se but focused on unique/odd ideas and making them work. Love the show, keep doing you and keep inspiring more engineers 👍
This series gets better and better. Was wondering if we could get stats on all the fans or at least going forward. Things like weight of the moving parts, number of blades, blade angle, etc. perhaps we would be able to see a trend of what does best.
It's all going to come down to the blade angle vs the blade mass (by way of the RPM). Matching the pitch of the blades to the speed of the air moving through (once it reaches a steady state) is critical. That might mean giving extremely precise instructions for printing to ensure the blade mass is what you've designed for...
I wish the Author would put a pic on the screen when referring/comparing to a previously tested fan that not all of us would have seen or remembered😅 really love this channel ❤ good work!
All of these were very impressive this time around, great way to get back into the showdowns.
I'd like to see a spinoff series, where you test all the viewer submitted fans, all using the cheater's extra bits. Give more of an even playing field.
Yayy, Major Hardware is back!
Good to see you're healthy again!
My 2c for the modifications, modify to make it work but try and stay within the idea behind the fan.
rocking the bald with beard look, love it! I'm losing my hair so its nice to see people who can pull it off.
Ha, it's so interesting to me that so many people have taken this competition so seriously as this especially for this long!
This is not a complaint; I love seeing it! I've been fascinated by fans ever since I was little. I'm just saying that I'm pleasantly surprised by how big this has gotten!
I like how the cheater was conceived as the proof of why there should be a limit on the profile and power on the fan, and conversely it just inspired a lot of people to make that will match him regardless of both.
Thumbed up for the braveness of sticking your finger in the "finger remover" alone! LOL!
Thanks for taking the time for yourself and your health.
Glad you're back.
Glad you're feeling better! Can't wait to see more!
Ok, i need to confess (and suggest) something. I'm following the show since 1st season, but I've no clue why I love it so much xD. I dunno anything about aerodynamic, 3D printing, I've never built my own pc, I'm not into aircraft, engineering or anything, but damn i watch every episode and i love it!
But that being said, although i feel that my grasp on the topic is slowly increasing, a 101 video on what's static pressure, how air move, what's a turbulence, what is good or bad sign on the smoke test... yeah, that would be really amazing!!!
But anyway, thanks for the show, it makes my day everytime, and gosh i had high hopes for this cheater beater xD
To be fair, the finger remover doesn’t start working until it gets over 9000.
Really just going to tease us with that turbo just sitting on the desk 😔
love your channel mate, keep up the awesome work
the new design of the open fan on the a380 test bed looks interesting. after the moving fan there are static blades that take the rotational energy that is in the air flow and cancel it out by guiding the air away from rotating to just speeding up the flow backwards where you want it to go.
so, the twisted air flow gets untwisted and that can be used to flow smoothly over/under the wing and create more lift over the wing too. very clever design
Every new episode I eagerly watch, both because it's super interesting, but also to see if my fan gets chosen. 😅 It's been so long since I submitted I'm guessing it's lost in a sea of other cool entries.
Whats your submission titled as
@@invisibleink07 Biomass and Low Poly. I think I shared on the subreddit too?
@@invisibleink07 Did you have something to do with getting my fan in the latest episode? Hahaha. If so, thanks! ❤😊
yangblade was pretty impressive ngl, even with the unbalanced wobble it moved air!
I was super excited to see it get tested but I cringed pretty hard to hear it rubbing like that. Huge blades are way more efficient at these speeds than small blades, I got around 1800 RPM and 670 fpm on my own bench tests with no rubbing.
welcome back I love watching these videos.
Regarding the cheater beater: When you explained it I understood the whole part you had in front, to be at the back of the fan, to smooth the flow after being sped up by the fan.
Aight new episode let's go
Neeter Beater was looking good there. Blade chord and angle of attack changes will make it come to life
Yes, it's spinning too fast - 1800rpm means the motor isn't generating enough power especially when the competition is around 1750rpm. Re-pitching the blades will probably yield the goods.
2 things.... First, way back around the turn of the century, I think I had a "backwards" fan... I think it was 80mm but, might've been 60mm... Regardless, surely there was a time when they were a thing, otherwise, why would they have bothered to eventually indicate on the fan frame the rotation and airflow directions? 😉
Second, my genuine hats off to EVERYONE! Not only are we making some amazingly creative designs that function really really well, but we're halfway through season 4!! 🤘
So glad to have stumbled across this series ""way back"" on EP3, and look forward to being here for EP300, too 😁👍❤️
delta still makes reversed fans and there's another consumer company that does mostly for specialty cases but they're few and far between.
My guess for the ying yang fan is that the long beam the point was mounted on flexed outward like a spring during high RPM, taking the center of mass off-center.
the glass on the smoke test is a good addition
Theoretically obstructions in airflow are better on the low pressure (pre-fan) side so the logic of the neater cheater beater is sound (at least I think). In multirotors there have been some experiments in putting the motors under the arms rather than on top for this very reason. I think ultimately it's not done more often because it means your propellers are more likely to get damaged just by landing.
About modifications: You need room for discretion but I'd expect minor modifications are necessary to get the printed fan to function as designed and have a fair chance. You've mentioned working with the designer in the past, and that makes sense for ambitious designs. Designs often need iterations to get good, so that's always interesting. You've thought through all of this more than I have, so keep doing what you're doing.
Maybe try reversing the mounting hole on a few of the higher placed fans to see if they change flow? Preferably just the smaller ones that fit in the original housing. I second PhilGoodInc with separate categories for normal mountable, oversized, and unrealistic fans. It's nice to see all the ideas and it's entertaining, but when there's a fan that fits within the original motor shroud, I'm fully interested because it's realistically useable in my own system.
For anyone designing fans; having clean laminar intake is far more important than having clean exhaust, any turbulence over the blades will be amplified, also having inlet guide veins will help, just make sure that angle of the veins matches angle of the fan blades, if the angle doesn't match than veins will produce turbulent flow over the blades instead of laminar and do more harm than good. Designing impeller with optimal number of blades (hint no more than 5), and correct angle of those blades to match the rpm and power of the motor, paired with inlet guide veins optimized for said impeller is the key to beating the cheater.
Glad you’re back and feeling energized again.
You were missed
she wont hold captain! The Dilithium Crystals are going to fracture!
I just realized the song he uses during the fan smoke test footage is an instrumental version of the song "Living In A Box" from the band "Living In A Box, from the Album Living In A Box
I thought Yin & Yang meant something was in balance with each other. *wobble wobble wobble* 😆
That turbo housing looks soooo good!
I like the acrylic sheet to mount the fan for the smoke test
Loving the WERA tool placement . top choice
Could you try the Finger Remover in the Neater Cheater Beater setup, and the latter's blades by themselves? It'd be interesting to see how much the added shrouds might increase the airflow efficiency, and how much difference they really make, because if the increase in airflow is similar for both blade designs, if someone makes one that's the most efficient by itself, beating the Cheater becomes more feasible.
I can’t believe my design did so good though
Might want to try shifting the weight to the side that does not have the blade on these one fan designs. The drag caused by the wing is going to put more load on the side of the blade and throw off the balance as it moves. By countering the weight added by drag with offsetting it to the blade it might be more stable at high speeds but not stable at low speeds.
It would be cool if it swung out centrifugally
I think the designer originally tried to do this, and ran a simulation in the CAD showing the CoM to be centrally positioned within the spindle after allocating mass properly. However, due to the nature of 3D printing, precision is not very good and the weight was not as balanced as initially intended, leading to the issue. But yeah, in theory this is the correct approach, just hard to execute in this medium.
@@birbo5603 I suspect that the problem is simply _flex._ The design is balanced while static, but once running the forces will cause that counterweight, in particular, to move outwards & throw off the balance.
@@NemoConsequentae valid point. Simulations probably didn’t account for the flex of PLA due to centripetal forces at speed.
It is also possible that an imperfect distribution of mass could have been caused by the imprecision of melting stranded filament onto an object.
I suspect the overall effect to be a result of both of these factors combined.
@@NemoConsequentae maybe I'm a simpleton but it seems this ultimately could be accounted for using the flex of pla or whatever as the variable to constant balance
I think top 5 should be placed in a head to head with the 1st place fan, same day testing… this way all metrics are the same to include tolerances in test equipment.
I don't know why I love these fan videos - but I do.
Finally! Someone made the stater line up with the nactua hub frame!!!
hahaha, perfect music for that yangblade
I am glad you are feeling better!! Also thanks for the video👍👍
#1 on things I didn't do^
6:08 shaky shaky shaky
7:47 even more shaky shaky
Yangblade surely has some funky moves!
the reverse cheater probably just needs a bigger bell mouth
Best series
Great video 👍
With asymmetrical fans people only pay attention to the center of mass, but forget that once the blades start moving air, forces are applied against them and especially in that yangblade where one side is moving all the air and the other side is doing nothing, it gets thrown out of balance due to air resistance.
I'm quite sure in a vacuum that fan would spin much more stable.
the neather cheater beater is interesting, I think when the power cable would be between the plastic (so 5mm up), it might lead to a tiny bit less turbulance and resistance.
I guess you already thought about changing to resin-printers. Is there any reason besides printing time and maybe buildvolume that keeps you sticked to fdm?
And second, how about a voting for the most creative design? Like a live poll that will be evaluated at the end of every season?
Love the series and always thrilled when a new episode comes out *_*
I think a less fleshy-coloured filament would have been better for the yin yang fan.
Changes to designs to make them actually work is totally fine with me.
I'm always lookin for the new fan showdown. One of the best series on youtube if your interested in pc hardware at all. 👌👌
Jiggle physics meet fan showdown lol
Backwards fans in history:
Intel stock coolers, of which there are many.
Can you do a video on the Ying Yang in variable speeds to see if there’s cool affects? I’m willing to bet that you’ll either see phases or sine wave crossing if you vary the shutter speed and rpm of the fan to see patterns.
The yin yang fan, as much as I enjoyed the design, when in action looked more like a washing machine drum 😂
Lol I can't unsee that now 🤣
wow the NCB really BLOWS air. That is awesome.
The mythical cheater still has yet to be bested
I saw the tire and hit like before we got 4 sec in lol
Just staring at the turbo charger the whole time.
Need to do more with the castle motor, i wanna see some seriously over powered cooling fans
I want to see him use an engine to drive one. I have quite a few model aircraft engines thatcould do something, too. A 10-size nitro 2-stroke will swing a prop about the right size to fit into an a12x25 shroud, while a more powerful one like my 25AX, 46AX, K&B 61 would be able to hit five digit revs with multi-blade 120mm fans and my Super Tiger G3250 swings an 18-20" prop at terrifyingly high speeds. Nevermind cooling a single component that thing could just brute force cool the entire system.
Maybe one day we could collab. It would be pretty crazy to see a gaming PC cooled solely by a 32cc nitro two stroke haha
@@TestECull wouldn't that just explode into a million pieces !?!?
@@tdtrecordsmusic Depends on how you do things. Part of the science of it!
I was thinking, what about modifying after the fan? Make a spacer approximately 2 or 3 inches deep and put angled vent holes (angled with the direction of air flow) in the spacer walls. Just a handful should do the trick. The idea behind this is the moving airflow will create a bit of a vacuum and with the angled vent holes, that negative pressure is compensated for with more air by the surrounding positive air pressure. The vent holes would look like teardrops from the side with the point facing the intake and the wide, rounded part facing the exhaust.
Suggestion: can you make an episode where you re-test the top 5 fans? Wondering if there is any degradation of the fan/motor that everything is being tested on
That’s funny as hell. My name is Andrew and my dads name is Aaron and people get our names mixed up all the time. When you accidentally said “Aaron” instead of “Andrew” I’ve heard it so often it didn’t even phase me
The Finger Remover 9000 reminds me a lot of the Akasa Piranha fans that were on sale not long ago
I found your channel researching edf fans. I think a edf challenge would be cool fan challenge for your channel in the future.
I like your Channel, thanks for your work. Is there a list of, how all fans performed?