Wow, I never made the parallel between Bill and Joel. I mean, yes, I have known that Ellie was to Joel was Frank was to Bill, someone to protect, but about being able to let the other go, about being able to respect the other's choice. What you say about Bill being able to do what Joel could not really blew me away. Good job with this video, truly
Another interesting parallel is that Tess is the decision-maker in their partnership, while Frank calls the shots for Bill... presumably with certain deal-breakers.
This was very well done and thoughtful. Good job.The question that I have is about the fire flies. When did they display the tools, organization, functionality, or scientific evidence that the opinion of 1 doctor to make a cure. To also Kill the only person that can provide a cure in quick time, without at least trying other methods. Science is best guess and is not always 100% as we recently re-learned (Covid)
There was no way to honor Ellie's agency at the hospital. She did not tell Joel "Dude, go ahead and let them murder me literally as step one, no matter how preposterous their plan is." NEVER does Ellie express to Joel a willingness to die for the cure, or this specific scenario. It's not as if Marlene and Jerry were going take no as an answer. Joel's options were to let Ellie be murdered or prevent it. The Firefly theory of saving humanity was not binding on Joel. And you don't have to be damaged in Joel's particular way to reject the notion of killing your (de facto) kid just because SUPPOSEDLY their dead body can benefit humanity. posterous, so obviously contrived for narrative structure, to take me out of the story.) True agency would be a mentally healthy, developmentally mature Ellie given the opportunity to offer truly informed consent, including exactly why they want to kill her, how exactly what resources the FFs have to prevent Ellie's sacrifice from being wasted, whether they'll abuse the power, and who else is out there with comparable or better chances of succeeding. Maybe without killing her. All of that potential was destroyed by the Fireflies, not Joel. To me the only dilemma is how long to maintain the lie, which is a reasonable one given Ellie's mental state. And their LOVE IMO will not diminish. It will be complicated by a thread of conflict with Ellie's view of her mission. But that's not the same as erasing the bond.
Totally agree, though I think it’s going a bit far to call the moral dilemma preposterous simply because it’s clear and uncomplicated by elaborate in-world explanations. Narrative structure is supposed to get us to the dilemma, and make it clear and sharp as possible. Realism is all very well, until it gets in the way of the story. The story is the dilemma, and the choice made by the protagonist. I think the reason this show, and the game before it, are so popular is because they don’t bury the moral dilemma in elaborate explanations for the sake of realism. It cuts to the moment that matters, and makes the impossible dilemma clear and unsubtle. Had they buried that dilemma in backstory, world-building, complicated arguments, or other ways of clouding the issue, would it have been more immersive? I would say quite the opposite. I’m not saying you’re wrong to have lost your suspension of disbelief. We react to stories the way we react. I’m just wondering what it was about the simplicity of the moral dilemma that threw you. I think it might be worth a reevaluation.
Great video. I don't know if it's a Mac thing, but the thumbnail link to the previous TLOU vid you all did was only on the screen for half a second before YT decided to offer an up next video that was completely out of context.
Why is it never CircleSquares... come on we've had end of the world... infinite eternity of undying love and devotion... Humanity v itself and the rest of the universe... other dimensions get a go Give CircleSquares a chance...they are pretty cool...
There was no way to honor Ellie's agency at the hospital. She did not tell Joel "Dude, go ahead and let them murder me literally as step one, no matter how preposterous their plan is." NEVER does Ellie express to Joel a willingness to die for the cure, or this specific scenario. It's not as if Marlene and Jerry were going take no as an answer. Joel's options were to let Ellie be murdered or prevent it. The Firefly theory of saving humanity was not binding on Joel. And you don't have to be damaged in Joel's particular way to reject the notion of killing your (de facto) kid just because SUPPOSEDLY their dead body can benefit humanity. posterous, so obviously contrived for narrative structure, to take me out of the story.) True agency would be a mentally healthy, developmentally mature Ellie given the opportunity to offer truly informed consent, including exactly why they want to kill her, how exactly what resources the FFs have to prevent Ellie's sacrifice from being wasted, whether they'll abuse the power, and who else is out there with comparable or better chances of succeeding. Maybe without killing her. All of that potential was destroyed by the Fireflies, not Joel. To me the only dilemma is how long to maintain the lie, which is a reasonable one given Ellie's mental state. And their LOVE IMO will not diminish. It will be complicated by a thread of conflict with Ellie's view of her mission. But that's not the same as erasing the bond.
I'm here waiting for this amazing video to hit 1 Million Views. Thank you so much for this in-depth analysis of an amazing video-game/movie.
Wow, I never made the parallel between Bill and Joel. I mean, yes, I have known that Ellie was to Joel was Frank was to Bill, someone to protect, but about being able to let the other go, about being able to respect the other's choice. What you say about Bill being able to do what Joel could not really blew me away. Good job with this video, truly
Another interesting parallel is that Tess is the decision-maker in their partnership, while Frank calls the shots for Bill... presumably with certain deal-breakers.
This was very well done and thoughtful. Good job.The question that I have is about the fire flies. When did they display the tools, organization, functionality, or scientific evidence that the opinion of 1 doctor to make a cure. To also Kill the only person that can provide a cure in quick time, without at least trying other methods. Science is best guess and is not always 100% as we recently re-learned (Covid)
Awesome video! Really great analysis.
Thanks! Appreciate it
There was no way to honor Ellie's agency at the hospital. She did not tell Joel "Dude, go ahead and let them murder me literally as step one, no matter how preposterous their plan is."
NEVER does Ellie express to Joel a willingness to die for the cure, or this specific scenario. It's not as if Marlene and Jerry were going take no as an answer.
Joel's options were to let Ellie be murdered or prevent it. The Firefly theory of saving humanity was not binding on Joel. And you don't have to be damaged in Joel's particular way to reject the notion of killing your (de facto) kid just because SUPPOSEDLY their dead body can benefit humanity. posterous, so obviously contrived for narrative structure, to take me out of the story.)
True agency would be a mentally healthy, developmentally mature Ellie given the opportunity to offer truly informed consent, including exactly why they want to kill her, how exactly what resources the FFs have to prevent Ellie's sacrifice from being wasted, whether they'll abuse the power, and who else is out there with comparable or better chances of succeeding. Maybe without killing her. All of that potential was destroyed by the Fireflies, not Joel.
To me the only dilemma is how long to maintain the lie, which is a reasonable one given Ellie's mental state.
And their LOVE IMO will not diminish. It will be complicated by a thread of conflict with Ellie's view of her mission. But that's not the same as erasing the bond.
Totally agree, though I think it’s going a bit far to call the moral dilemma preposterous simply because it’s clear and uncomplicated by elaborate in-world explanations. Narrative structure is supposed to get us to the dilemma, and make it clear and sharp as possible. Realism is all very well, until it gets in the way of the story. The story is the dilemma, and the choice made by the protagonist. I think the reason this show, and the game before it, are so popular is because they don’t bury the moral dilemma in elaborate explanations for the sake of realism. It cuts to the moment that matters, and makes the impossible dilemma clear and unsubtle. Had they buried that dilemma in backstory, world-building, complicated arguments, or other ways of clouding the issue, would it have been more immersive? I would say quite the opposite.
I’m not saying you’re wrong to have lost your suspension of disbelief. We react to stories the way we react. I’m just wondering what it was about the simplicity of the moral dilemma that threw you. I think it might be worth a reevaluation.
nicely done..😎👍
Great video. I don't know if it's a Mac thing, but the thumbnail link to the previous TLOU vid you all did was only on the screen for half a second before YT decided to offer an up next video that was completely out of context.
Thanks! I’ll check out the glitch
Great vid. I'll definitely subscribe
Thanks!
Why is it never CircleSquares... come on we've had end of the world... infinite eternity of undying love and devotion...
Humanity v itself and the rest of the universe... other dimensions get a go
Give CircleSquares a chance...they are pretty cool...
What a great video, amazing job
Thank you very much!
U jsut open my eyes 💚
There was no way to honor Ellie's agency at the hospital. She did not tell Joel "Dude, go ahead and let them murder me literally as step one, no matter how preposterous their plan is."
NEVER does Ellie express to Joel a willingness to die for the cure, or this specific scenario. It's not as if Marlene and Jerry were going take no as an answer.
Joel's options were to let Ellie be murdered or prevent it. The Firefly theory of saving humanity was not binding on Joel. And you don't have to be damaged in Joel's particular way to reject the notion of killing your (de facto) kid just because SUPPOSEDLY their dead body can benefit humanity. posterous, so obviously contrived for narrative structure, to take me out of the story.)
True agency would be a mentally healthy, developmentally mature Ellie given the opportunity to offer truly informed consent, including exactly why they want to kill her, how exactly what resources the FFs have to prevent Ellie's sacrifice from being wasted, whether they'll abuse the power, and who else is out there with comparable or better chances of succeeding. Maybe without killing her. All of that potential was destroyed by the Fireflies, not Joel.
To me the only dilemma is how long to maintain the lie, which is a reasonable one given Ellie's mental state.
And their LOVE IMO will not diminish. It will be complicated by a thread of conflict with Ellie's view of her mission. But that's not the same as erasing the bond.