Will anyone remember these GW Codexes in 20 years?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 15 ก.ย. 2024
- In this episode we discuss the whether we will look back the 2024 era of warhammer products the same way we do at 2004 warhammer products..
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3rd Edition Space Wolves Codex...
The image of a red headed blood claw slaying Orks with a battle-axe was everything my little thirteen year old self could want.
That was a very cool supplement.
I’m old, from the RT/2nd era of 40k. I think a big factor too is the internet and especially TH-cam.
In the 90s, lore was pretty much just what was in the rulebooks, army books, and White Dwarf. GW had a few paperbacks during RT, but BL didn’t really meaningfully exist until 3rd ed 40k came around in the early 00s.
There’s so much third party lore engagement for fans now. TH-cam summaries, deep dives, and arguments, on top of discussions in fb groups, subreddits, etc.
During 2nd, beyond your own gaming group, you only really had random Geocities type blogs with fanfic or mass email lists for fans to communicate beyond your own town.
Nevermind how much lore Black Library cranks out in novels and anthologies, or the additional formats like audiobooks and animation.
In ye olden days, the physical books had a lot of value regardless of the rules because there just wasn’t many other sources for background.
I played CSM in 2nd with them painted as Word Bearers. Their sole background mentions were a color page from a Realm of Chaos book depicting them as a Khorne army, a few paragraphs in the 2nd Ed codex, and the odd mention or reference in White Dwarf or such.
Minor Imperial Guard characters get more more as secondary characters in a BL novel than Horus and his Heresy had in all of Rogue Trader, 2nd ed, and Epic/Space Marine/Titan Legions era 40k/Epic/BFG combined, including game books and White Dwarfs.
I always thought GW should issue a 'lore' codex - basically a codex sans rules - for each faction, then, at the launch of a new edition, release a single 'update' codex that introduces lore updates and story progressions for all factions. Players can buy a nice, hardcover book for their favorite factions full of short stories, background information, and maybe the evolution of the models themselves, and download the rules if they need them.
4th edition Guard Codex with those Amazing Osprey book illustrations...
... meanwhile the codex was so bad that you had a better chance of winning by stepping on your miniatures instead of putting them on the table.
2nd edition Chaos Codex. So many options, I used it to make a loyalist legion from the Heresy that found themselves in the 41st millenium.
After 5th edition 40k, the books are all interchangeable. It's like that line from Tron Legacy about just slapping a new number on the box and charging twice as much.
I don't know if it was Matt Ward messing up the rules with 6th ed that really did it for me but I to feel like the codex's stopped being as good after 5th ed. Arguably 4th ed was peak lore and 5th was peak rules.
People are looking to buy the physical items because they are realizing that when they don't keep up the subscription payment, they no longer have access to the library of books, movies and music that they bought digital only. for some people, that can be a large financial loss.
"Angels of Death" with that double whammy of Dark Angels and Blood Angels lore.
6th Edition High Elves with that glorious mystical cover art with teclis and the dragon princes.
Runner up: 5th edition wood elves with the mage
6th edition Vampire counts by Allessio Cavatore ? they went from generic undead in 5th to vampire counts and tomb kings , The VC Bloodlines were great thematic addition too.
Love that book, was just dripping with so much character! (The Undead split actually happened before that in a very short-lived 5th edition army book)
That's the one for me too
I love the Necromunda books. They’re packed with lore and hobby inspiration. So far they seem to be keeping them evergreen but I’ll never be sorry I have them.
I can’t really comment on the main line games.
Favourite Book: 6th edition Hordes of Chaos army book. Such a thick book filled with background, images, and rules.
While I used to back the idea of moving fully to digital rules, I think that solution would only worsen the e-sports mentality GW has taken towards constanting patching and errata-ing their game. Also something to be said about accessibility and who gets left behind when these rules get pushed to digital.
The more preferable solution to me is moving away from the 3-year cycle of the edition, and allowing more development and care to be put into an army book which allows it to be functional for years. With the amount of titles GW has under their belt now (AoS, 40k, HH, Old World, LOTR, etc) they could go to a 5 year cycle, give the books some time to breath and self balance before going in with drastic errata changes.
also It really feels bad to purchase an army book knowing the points/wargear are obsolete on release, and you need to reference a day 1 errata to use your book.
I love the 3rd edition Tyranid codex, you could customize mutations in your squad and it was super fun. Also, the Orcs and Goblin 6th edition Fantasy, I love how the introduction was written.
The tiny soft back 3rd ed 40K books and old 6th ed fantasy books are more interesting and inspiring than any hardcover book put out today. No one is going to fondly remember the 8th Ed chaos codex 2nd printing in 20 years. I think the biggest issue is that the games now are a storyline that has to be moved forward and not a setting to immerse yourself in.
You got a lot of lore, painting tips, terrain tips and additional missions in the older books. That's why i still have a large collection of 3rd edition codices.
For me, the greatest codex ever is Witch Hunters. Sisters lost so much of their flavour when they stripped out of the wonderful weirdness.
The only books that are memorable for me from recent memory are the Gathering Storm books, because they represented the 40k story moving forward and exciting times that were full of energy leading up to the 8th edition launch. 8th edition holds a special place in my heart too as my favorite edition of 40k.
So many classic books we'll never see again. The 3.5 edition Chaos Space Marine Codex being chief among them, but there are plenty of others. Daemonhunters and Witch Hunters, the 4th edition Space Marine Codex, 4th Edition Guard with build your own regiment, 3rd edition Tyranids where you could customize hive fleets, 6th edition Hordes of Chaos, Vampire Counts and Skaven! Flawed, yes. But beautiful nonetheless. Not to mention FUN! Rolling to see how big your Death Company would be. Trying to force a Necron player to phase out. Ork looted vehicles!
Some of it is generational. I'm closing in on 40. Im never going to enjoy a miniatures game the way I did 40K in high school, so I look back on the 3rd and 4th edition eras fondly. But I also think there's an essential magic of the two games at that time that has been lost. 10th edition is great at flying off the shelves, but it's terrible for making memories.
I'd have to say that my most memorable book, filled with memories is the 5th Edition Space Wolves codex. 5th Edition was my favorite edition, Space Wolves (painted/built as 13th company as per the Eye of Terror campaign book) was my largest, most complete/painted army.
As for the future of books, I'd like them to separate the "free rules for playing" from the "pretty color pictures/history/lore" part. Continue to sell pictures/history/lore books, but don't make me by a physical book just to get access to digital rules. Then again, if I only played 1 game, 1 faction, then the expense is less of a factor. I watched your podcast with Ash earlier this morning and I too sought out the A5 mini rulebooks. No one wants to haul around a 10 lb hardback book if a smaller/lighter rules reference book is available. I'm blessed to work at a print shop so I can print out the current core PDF rules and make my own edited spiral bound rule books for use at my table. As a graphic designer I designed my own (larger) data sheets and war scrolls.
Codex: City Fight, baby
Favorite book Warhammer Fantasy 4-5th codexes.
All the 2nd edition codexes because they are a work of art.
Black books from heresy 1.0. beautiful artwork, amazing quality and tge old ones are stuffed with lore
Fav codex…2ed Tyranids.
Ooo good choice
8th Ed WFB Demons of Chaos book was so awesome. I don't even particularly like Blanche's art, but that WHOLE book in that style with the page layout was tied together wonderfully. I had all 8th Ed Army books, and sold them- except that one.
The new edition Kill Team announcement included something about digital rules being free, but it was unclear if that meant at launch with Indexes, or if it was going to be the way all rules are handled in this edition.
And I'm a little surprised you guys didn't mention Warmachine. When it went to full free digital rules there were a lot of complaints that people wanted the company to still produce physical cards.
4th edition Ork codex, i read through that book so many time the spine split, at which point i transferred the whole thing to a binder and kept reading it there
Hahah amazing 👏
The 3rd ed Ork Codex lasted until 5th edition, an absolute gem of a book! Unfortunately, GW has missed the mark on every Ork Codex since
I dont really have an army.book I remember, but white dwarf 234 - vampire counts launch back in..3rd? Was the white dwarf that absolutely captivated me as a kid.
6th edition Warhammer was the best in my memory, loved Seraphon and Empire and wood elves books soo much! But recently I’ve loved the Kharadron books, especially the 2nd edition one, I still open it from time to time just to read about how the different sky ports have their cultures, how the guilds are a living part of both society and army, and the ever more desperate search for aethergold! Whoever wrote those books really made a huge effort, and didn’t just phone in 30 pages of “fluff” 😊
I feel with the books for me at least i may end up getting a tablet and buying the epubs not for the cost, but for the space issue more than anything.
RIP techmarine with conversion beamer.
RelicBlade and Silver Bayonet are books that I'll keep. They are awesome. GW... Probably not? I'm waiting for High Elf Arcane Journal
You kept the 8th Ed WFB books because that was the last edition.
Sailing the seas, there’s a lot of cool stuff in the old books. 3rd or 3.5 Chaos 40K allowed you to more specialize your force (So if you took Iron Warriors, you could take extra Heavy Support for no Fast Attack).
I don’t think I’ll remember the codices, own too many armies for that. I’ll probably remember how the edition made me feel (40K 6th-7th bleh, 8th great then meh, 9th a dumpster fire with cool ideas, and 10th meh)
Regarding the book vs. digital debate for playing; I find that a physical list and quick reference with a digital copy of the rules (can't beat hyperlinking and search in digital text) is the absolute best combination. I just wish GW would produce actually good quick references and an army builder that could output files that were meant to be printed. That said, I still like the physical books for the specialist games, where I feel like these books will be around for a while. Buying a book for 1.5 years (on average) seems insane to me.
Actually, having pondered this for a few more days, I think instead of having a digital copy I might even prefer having a cheap printed copy that I can mark for quick references and just put my coffee on. 🤔 Not sure if my game stores would appreciate me having one tho.
I sold my entire book collection and switched to ereader - it was a painful transition but now I’m good with it
For Fantasy, for me it's the 4th ed High Elves and Undead books. I still have them and get them out once a year to flick through. My HE book still has notes written (in pencil!) on the pages. I think the HE book was the second one they'd ever done, and it all felt so new. I think that's part of the nostalgia. Today, the lore is so well developed that nothing is really new in the books besides the rules and possibly one or two new models (which have already been leaked anyway). Mind you, the 5th ed HE book, which I also still have, just regurgitated the same lore from the 4th ed book, so laziness is definitely not a modern thing. So while the rules were definitely better, I much prefer the 4th ed book.
For 40k it's the 2nd ed Angels of Death book. Even at the time it felt lazy to do a BA/DA combo book (why not their own?) but it defined the way Blood Angels would be from that point on. I remember reading some of the short stories in there and thinking, Blood Angels love close combat? Up to that point they'd just been red space marines without a whiff of vampirism. I can't see me keeping any of the modern 40k or AoS books for as long, but the again, I look back on them fondly partly because I was young and just getting into the hobby. I hope that people just getting into the hobby now will feel the same way about contemporary books.
Oh those old undead books were so cool. I remember the first Vampire Counts book with all of the different bloodlines it was awesome.
I guess books don’t have an expiry, there’s still people playing 6th edition WFB for example. I guess for the books not to become “invalid” GW needs to release a complete edition of a game with everyone getting a release that everyone considers relatively balanced and fun, like they must have done with 6th to have people attached to it 25 years later.
Will that happen with AoS 4th, 40k 11th?
I'll keep repeating myself until some kind of divine intervention makes it happen: GW should stop releasing Codexes (Codices???)/Battletomes and instead release Army books that contain pictures of painted minis (more examples than currently there are, even some interesting conversions), painting tips and color recipes, more lore and art pieces.
I'd prefer this kind of 'evergreen' books that could be an asset years later. Meanwhile you can basically rip half of the book and throw it in the trash.
Rules should be free or in game sized format (like the Index cards, but cheaper).
The problem is not so much having a book associated with your army. It's the fact that they contain crucial rules - which they know (that's why they sell it). The army books should only contain artwork, hobbying, lore etc... All rules should only be free. That's why people are going to Wahapedia or just canceling the rules altogether and using OPR.
Fantasy kept up the quality on their army books until almost the end, but 40k really started literally slimming down their books to just rules, fewer full color pictures, less art, less stories and other snippets of lore. Really, 2nd edition 40k and 4th edition fantasy is where I draw the line. Everything past that feels very different, and you could draw a straight line from that point to what we have now.
It’s not quite the same but the Fire and Jade book will stick with me I think. It let me actually expert the game and regularly play the models. I admit this is more because the experience it fostered. I didn’t get into the hobby until 2-3 years ago when I was in my 30s with SW legion. My buddy gave me the 2nd edition IDK codex last summer after the LGS closed down. I started reading through it and ended up starting the army based on how cool every thing looked and the lore it had. I was also really tired of painting white clone troopers and wanted to play with more colors…..
Its a very nice and complete guide
I joined back in to Warhammer during covid for painting and building and for AoS books I think I fondly look at legions of Nagash during soul wars. Soul wars felt still fresh and new and the legions of nagash was a bit like the old cities of Sigmar book singed it was mainly all fantasy models and you could do what you wanted. I still dream of making a complete deathrattle city and army lead by a badass wight king. However, the tail end of soul wars and then the beginning of dominion, I think it all changed and I won’t remember anything. As for 40k won’t remember anything after 8th
the wood elf battle book both 6th ed and i believe 5th edition the book with the sorceress and wardancers on the art cover
Will echo the love for the 6th edition army books! What still stands out to me is buying the 5th edition fantasy starter box and just poring over the Battle Book that night! The hobby experience definitely went from a game into a full-blown setting at that point.
Ill spare you the 20 minutes, no. 25 years ago there was just enough media for consumption, now there is a total over saturation of media so everything is less of an event. Like there will never be another stones or the beatles kinda thing because the market is just too dispersed. (Caveat of taylor swift, thats definitely something i haven't been able to integrate into this)
Favourite book? The 5th ed wood elf book with the green spine.
The whole "physical vs. digital" debate can not really be done in short. There are probably papers and books written about the matter, and even those only scratch the surface most likely.
So staying with personal experience and feelings here: I prefer books, always have and always will. Digital stuff is and always will be temporary, and while in a technical sense books are too: my books will outlive me, while none of my hard drives or USB sticks will. And as long as they remain in good condition - which is, again thinking in long time frames here, easier to do with books than digital content - I can always just pick up anything and look at it, think about what was, and even simply play again.
Finally: WHF army books from 5th and 6th edition were a league of their own. GW did good army and codex books afterwards, but the 90s and early 2000s really were peak Workshop when it comes to written materials and artwork.
Lost track of the number of times over the past forty years people say to me "[INSERT CURRENT EDITION] sucks, think I will wait till [INSERT NEXT EDITION], the game was great back in [INSERT PAST EDITION] though" yet they don't seem to realize that they and their gaming buddies can still play old editions. If an edition passes on to a new edition and you are not a hardcore tourney player you don't need to move on. I think the hobby would be in a healthier position if people treated like RPGs and step off the treadmill to play other editions.
That assumes you have friends willing to do such. That’s bold of you.
@@timunderbakke8756 That's a fair comment but I am personally seeing more and more people I know losing interest in tenth and I've converted a lot of older players like myself to 4th edition because of the added advantage of nostalgia with them. It is possible but someone in the group has to make the first step and remove the stigma of only playing the "official" rules. Till someone shows them the older stuff most will never even consider it. People forgot the golden rule of 40k a long time ago, the rules are suggestions on how to play and not set in stone.
imagine if GW never made new editions of existing games but instead made whole new games.
The old army books have covers and artwork by artists like Karl Kopinski or Adrian Smith, while the art in the new books, especially the covers, seems to be designed by corporate committee, designed to match the models as exactly as possible. It makes the books feel souless, which is an awful meaningless term, that basically means that, no, I don't think I'll remember them 20 years from now.
I only got into GW games during the modern era (9th edition 40K). I find the game fun but I don’t really like the rule churn. I don’t mind 10th edition overall but I really miss the psychic phase.
I probably won’t buy any of the 10th edition books - I haven’t yet.
The problem nowadays is that the book is outdated within weeks of buying it. Why would I drop 50$ on a codex per army when I know they'll be completely invalidated and literally useless aside from taking shelf space once a new edition rolls around.
The 4th ed Dark Angels codex written by Jervis Johnson is one of the tightest, most well balanced, and well thought out codices GW ever put out, but it suffered horribly because it was a real attempt to restrain the power creep and option bloat that had come to define most of the older 4th ed army books. And when 5th ed rolled around GW changed their design philosophy yet again and decided to up the average power level for most of the codices, so the DA didn't get good again until very late in 5th when they FAQed the codex to give us 3++ Storm Shields and FNP Apothecaries...
Hated that Codex. Flavorless slop on the table. It had fun lore though. Still love a lot of DA successors to this day.
@jackrogers5712 It was a very streamlined codex, but it reintroduced Combat Squads and made Boltpistols, Frag & Krak Grenades standard issue wargear. The Deathwing and Ravenwing were fun to play but were largely outclassed in 5th. If they'd got 3++ Stormshields and FnP Apothecaries early in 5th they'd have been terrifying.
5th ed dwarf army book. First l bought. For w40k the 2ed Space Wolves. Still have both. Nostalgia 100%. For later stuff l don't have similar feelings . With most GW games here being 35+ l don't see much super hype for the books. I don't even remember 6th ed and later covers, nevermind what was inside.
Though I'm not sure I remember anything specific from inside Apotheosis or Colossals, they're on my shelf kinda just to represent my Warmahordes career. What I do remember is my single Elimination Servitor killing Butcher, or my Absylonia having to make a charge over four Iron Fangs in a desperate attempt to kill Butcher, or my Forge Guard making tough rolls to keep Butcher away from Ashlynn. Really, just kinda killing Butcher is what I remember most fondly 😅
I think you hit the point when it was said that once you've read the fiction of the faction in the codex and the following ones come out without any meaningful change there, the new books are just stat books. So they are going to be less memorable but to a new player reading it for the first time, that will be the book they remember. I don't see how it can easily be improved upon because for a new player they act as a kick start into the novel line, and for a veteran, they are stat books which must be purchased. Adding more memorable lore eats into the novels, but I do wish they would do something because producing a book that is good for 3 years tops is terrible.
Kids buying the current books now will be nostalgic for them in 20 years time, for sure.
The current nostalgia wave has hit the early 2000s and people in their 30s who grew up with 6th edition fantasy have nostalgia for it. I‘m a little older and I remember the start of the oldhammer movement, which focused on GW of the 80s - WFB 1st to 3rd editions. To my generation 6th edition is relatively modern and holds no nostalgic value.
It‘s all relative.
You think so? The new books just feel way more disposable? I guess time will tell.
@lordsofwargamesandhobbies3905 the problem with the above argument is the assumption that kids are playing the game. 44 now and started when I was 13 with Battle Masters. Got my first Codex 3 years later. Significantly fewer options for nerdy hobbies back in the mid-90s. Everything meant more at the time because we didn't have options like they have now.
@@abatter My son and all his friends at school have recently started and they love it. They started with Pokemon and have now moved onto Warhammer. The excitement and joy they have is the same as I had as a kid their age.
@@pforson that's great! I hope their enthusiasm can weather the current GW churn. So many more options for mini-agnostic systems that hopefully they can stay in the hobby even beyond GW-fatigue.
1st and 3rd ed AoS books were genuinely great, especialy for big atmy re-freshes like Seraphon or Flesh eaters. but i have very little trust in 4th edition for literally anything, so i expect them to suck hard
Everything about 1st and 2nd edition AOS was awful.
Remember when Lumineth got 3 books within a span of two years?
It was just bizarre..
Definitely 6th edition High elves and 8th edition Dark Elves are very memorable for me.
I also think the Orcs and Goblins Arcane Journal will be very memorable
I don't think any modern codex will stick with me over time... as you said, we don't get to spend enough time with them and they're more cookie-cutter than they used to be. I enjoyed the Vigilus campaign books and if we'd had more time with them I think they might have gained some mental traction.
Lol no they will not be remembered, but then there are lot of people who collect things that aren't necessarily memorable. Codecies will be like the physical editions of the novels: printed once and never again. The difference will be that the stories still exist in digital (even the novels made in the 90s are on Kindle). But will digital copies of 8th, 9th, or 10th? What about all of their errata?
The only way to get copies of those rules "as they were written" frozen in time is to get the core / codex when it comes out, or pray you get a copy on the aftermarket. Could look for scans of course and they exist in several places, but you get the idea. The novels don't have to worry about the same kind of "snapshot" the edition rules or codecies do. The story is just as good as the day it was written. Rulesets however? They're more like an artifact: nice to look at, but we can't always understand them without the context of their time.
It's difficult to square the circle regarding the discussion about GW IP protection, given that their business was built off other people's IP. Part of me agrees that yes, they should have some rights of protection given that they incur the cost of development, etc. However, they've so blatantly ripped things off from popular culture and profited from it, that I find the double standard, hard to swallow.
3,5ed Chaos Space marines! It was great from front to back. Then they destroyed chaos space marines with the following books and i quit the game after 3,5ed book became obsolete.
I agree, I started out with chaos 3.5 and gw has never equaled it since. Though I continued to play until 9th Ed, 10th Ed has killed my army and I’m bored of rebuilding my army to fit new editions.
Did have a nostalgic game of 5th Ed recently, as the core rules were fairly good but using 5th Ed chaos was a bit underwhelming though lash of submission was fun
Best Codex ever made. Though I liked the 4th edition Marine book too, and both Daemonhunters and Witch Hunters were great as well.
I only have experience with modern GW through AoS and lord of the rings. Outside of the rules, the AoS books feel like slop for the piggies. Normally I’d say it’s just nostalgia but you could go pick up an 8th edition fantasy book and still enjoy yourself without any desire to play the game. Worthwhile books just seem incompatible with the way gw manage the main studio games.
i will absolutely remember fire and jade cus it was my first one and feels really complete.
One important aspect you left out of your discussion is the prevalence of youtube lore channels. As a zoomer new to the hobby, why would I be interested in a book with mostly re-used art at a hefty price tag when I can find excellently curated, narrated, and animated lore videos on youtube for free? I spent about 6 months watching lore videos before ever buying a product from GW. There's a deep interest in the lore of Warhammer, but anyone interested is buying GW's novels or nothing at all. If GW made books a premuim product to match the premium price tag with all new art and new stories, I would genuinely consider buying their books, but as it stands, other people offer the same content with a much higher level of production quality for free, so why would I bother?
If anything, they really ought to pivot to making their own very high quality lore videos on Warhammer+. That would give lore people a reason to subscribe and a way for them to compete with youtubers. If they launched a Horus Heresy overview series in a BBC TV documentary special type format, I think they'd get an insane amount of traction.
They actually already do their own lore videos. Loremasters exists and is exactly as you've described it on Warhammer+.
I actually didn't know that. Thanks for the tip, I think I'll check it out. I usually only hear about their battle reports and animated short series, but I should've guessed they had a lore series too
Nope- I trash codex’s faster than I can use them. I have kept my 2nd edition books though.
Yeah the new books feel kinda bland so I have no care for them. I can’t wait to get back to , if ever , books with real heart in them.
Don't blame the lawyers and the law for the loss of no-model profiles. GW can protect its IP in the name alone and have done so even asking stl websites to take down generic similar models or names alone even. The reason every rule needs a model is very clear: $$$.
I would love to see the court rulings people keep saying that GW decisions are based off. Much of the internet's 'legal' knowledge about these issues sounds very suspect and in no way related to copyright law I've seen. Pretty much the equivalent of any werewolves' or vampires' stories - some hint of truth is in there, but the story isn't what people claim it to be.
Rogue Trader and 2nd version rules.
everything published after that is unnecessary.