Troubleshooting An Intermittent Idle Only Misfire (Dodge Durango) Part 1
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 2 ส.ค. 2024
- 2014 Dodge Durango 3.6L that has had a new #2 ignition coil and plug installed and it continues to show misfiring on the #2 cylinder. Customer complaint is an idle only misfire and it runs fine under load. Join us as we walk you through some fundamental testing methods that can be applied to all cars. #picoscope #snapon
ScannerDanner Tools:
www.scannerdanner.com/tools.html
www.amazon.com/shop/scannerda...
For more information on this topic, I have written a “field manual” called Engine Performance Diagnostics which is available at www.scannerdanner.com as an eBook or paper book.
Want even more diagnostic training? Whether you are a DIY trying to fix your own car, someone looking to become an auto technician, or a current auto technician that wants to get more into diagnostics, subscribe to ScannerDanner Premium www.scannerdanner.com/join-sc... There is a 14 day free trial.
On ScannerDanner Premium I will bring you right into my classroom at Rosedale Technical College. You will find page for page lectures taken right from my book as well as exclusive classroom type case studies. What is so special about these classroom case studies? I pull live problem vehicles directly into my classroom and we troubleshoot them in real time, using and applying the theory and testing procedures we learn during the classroom lectures. There is no better on-line training of how to troubleshoot automotive electrical and electronics systems anywhere!
Disclaimer:
Due to factors beyond the control of ScannerDanner LLC, it cannot guarantee against unauthorized modifications of this information, or improper use of this information. ScannerDanner LLC assumes no liability for property damage or injury incurred as a result of any of the information contained in this video. ScannerDanner LLC recommends safe practices when working with power tools, automotive lifts, lifting tools, jack stands, electrical equipment, blunt instruments, chemicals, lubricants, or any other tools or equipment seen or implied in this video. Due to factors beyond the control of ScannerDanner LLC, no information contained in this video shall create any express or implied warranty or guarantee of any particular result. Any injury, damage or loss that may result from improper use of these tools, equipment, or the information contained in this video is the sole responsibility of the user and not ScannerDanner LLC. - ยานยนต์และพาหนะ
Gas analyser reading 27.3% Oxygen in the air🤔 Tell Danner to get it calibrated😉
Nice to c DD here. Never miss an SD or DD video. DD fixed it again!!
Good eye! Great catch!😁👍
-100
🤣 nice
Air is 21% oxygen, mostly N2 (78%)
The " computer guys" working toghether, Nice!
I cannot STAND getting bad new parts. When I first started working on vehicles my brain would automatically convince me that no, it can't still be that because its brand new if the problem remained. Led me on many ghost hunts that I learned the hard way from.
I actually learned a lot from watching you perform all the various tests! So not a total waste of time brother! Thank you for everything!
Always good to see that even World Class Tech's like yourself get tripped up scratching their heads by the new part bug sometimes...just proves your human still! Thanks for sharing!
Intermittent problems is a pain to begin with but going thru the troble shooting you did led you to the problem.Great video as always.Stay safe everyone.
Dealt with this exact misfire, exact engine and vehicle. The 3.6 pentastar engines from Chrysler are notorious for roller rocker failures. Just like your coil primary tests it didn’t show in the waveforms I captured. I ended up seeing the excessive “turbulence” at idle in the secondary waveforms caused by improper intake valve seating from a failed rocker, pulled valve covers off and found the rocker took out the cam lobe. On some of your captures you can see the “turbulence” at idle in the secondary burn. Hope this helps appreciate all that you do, I’m a premium member and love the content👍🏼
It's kinda crazy how inconsistent the misfire symptoms from failed rollers are in these 3.6Ls. I had one in a caravan about a month ago. Had a dead miss at idle on #3. Found an intake rocker with just a tiny bit of slop. I thought surely it couldn't be the problem. Replaced it and miss went away.
I have a Journey in the shop right now with a small miss on #1 at all times. Intake cam is wiped clean. One valve opens half way and the other doesn't open at all. But only a light miss.
Had a Chrysler 200 a while back. Had dead #1 miss at idle and cruising but was fine under load. Again, intake cam lobes were totally wiped clean. Both valves barely opened at all. It seems like every one of them misses differently and the worse the cams are, the better they run.
The excessive turbulence you mention is not what we were seeing during the misfire 😉
While I agree, that can happen, but when a spark line completely disappears like we had, this is never from a mechanical or fuel problem.
Thank you so much for helping me do what I do. You guys (premium members) are the reason I still produce content here and don't ever ask for donations to the channel. I'm forever grateful.
@@kolton5543 i bet in your examples, cranking compression tested good too! But this is where secondary ignition was so valuable here in my case. Also wiped lobes can be caught using an intake and exhaust psi transducer and of course a running compression test, but when the intake covers the cylinder that you need to get to, the psi transducers i mentioned would have been the key!
Yep. Both the chrysler 200 and the caravan had both good cranking and running compression. Nothing noticeable with a mechanical gauge at least. Unfortunately I don't have a pressure transducer for my scope. I'd like to get one sometime. Might make diagnosing valve train issues a little easier on these 3.6Ls
I waited days to finally have time to watch this one. Glad I did. It's not as fun when the diag is too easy.
Awesome video! Learn so much from you! Had a similar issue with my wife’s 3.6 pentastar a couple years ago, it ended up being 1 failed exhaust rocker arm on misfiring cylinder. Wasn’t making a sound!
Great video on the total diagnostic process, lots of great testing. great job Danner, great editing too...😁
Excellent who done it video. I’ve use my older A/C hydrocarbon sniffer for the same test.
Had the exact same issue with a secondary ignition misfire. On the same SUV it Keep sending me down the wrong rabbit hole. Sounding board is good to have. Thank you it was very helpful
ASE Certified Chris
Had a similar case with a Yaris 1KR, misfire was only at idle, at higher RPM, no misfire, no fault codes, all tests passed, turned out to be a damaged intake valve.
Hey Paul. You are the man. Keep up the good work Kaleb.
Really enjoy your videos.
I used to have a 2002 Chrysler T&C that developed a really bad multi-cylinder miss fire. It started as a single cylinder miss fire but after a particularly cold night it became many cylinders (almost all) miss firing.
Turned out the wiring harness for the fuel injectors came loose from its support and fell down near the exhaust manifold and melted the insulation on the wires and they shorted together. It was a mess.
I had to use a heat gun to separate the wires and then cut out the bad section (about 4 to 5 inches) one wire at a time rejoining them with butt splices and solder with heat shrink over them. After I got done with it the harness still reached to where it needed to plug in and was now too short to get too close to the exhaust. Car ran great after that. Apparently this was a fairly common problem.
Thank you great description of my problem too
SD, pls keep us updated on fixes and what the other shop missed plus what type of spark plug used and ignition coil if feasible. Sometimes aftermarket parts don’t play very well engine management system. Thank you sharing this video.
Excellent presentation and diagnosis as always 👍🏻
Was surprised how low statistic for cylinder head was on the repair ranking for the P0302. I was getting tons of compression loss diagnosed for case study results when I had a Grand caravan here with same code, same engine. I was losing sealing of exhaust valves on my customer's 3.6/cylinder 2 as well. Anyway looking forward to the update. Thanks for taking us along on the struggle with this one.
Caleb, James, Paul
Great analysis and video - thank you! Let us know how it ends.
Paul (in MA)
This is exactly what i needed! Thanks for the awesome video.
just got the fuse adapters from AESwave myself. Awesome tool to have.
Wow what a find.True at times new stuff can be the culprit
Thanks Paul , as always AWESOME video !!! keep up the great work !!
I did one 6 months ago. 3.6 chrysler. Ended up being the cylinder head. A cylinder leak down test showed it pretty quick. The new head from chrysler was only like 350 bucks
Ya the head was only 350.00 but labor and taxes plus other hidden fees more along the lines of 900 to 1,350.01
There is a TSB for this problem in bank 2, they even extended warranty to a 150k miles
@@Portuguese-linguicaexactly. So I just went through this for the 2nd time in less than 3 years with 2 different caravans my 2016 and now 2018. It was easier to use the 1300 bucks for a down payment and buy another one that comes with a 4 year 80k mile warranty. Case closed. Piece of mind for the next 3 years minimum.
Superb👍
Thanks for sharing SD, Love it👍
The best part is your cool tool's arsenal😎
The outro was awesome, great job Caleb😉
Stay Safe Guy's❤
Glad you enjoyed it, just read this comment to Caleb :-)
@@ScannerDanner Thanks a lot SD, this is a huge compliment for me😍
You're my mentor, Love your work always, what I've learned from you is unimaginable👍
Stay Safe & Blessed❤
Just went through this with a 2018 caravan light misfire when cold but after several hours chugging at certain speeds on highway. After spending 1500 full coil plugs all gaskets. Still check engine light would not stay off. P302 permanent code. I took what it was gonna cost to keep chasing the misfire and went to the dealer and just traded it in. Got an earlier model, less miles and no check engine lights on and a 4 year 80k warranty as my vans warranty expired during the pandemic. These 3.6 engines are really good as long as the problems don't start popping up.
That was a great one danner you are a star
Thanks a lot for this kinds of videos it's really interesting.
Excellent video like always Paul
For an experienced diagnostician, a first instinct is usually a good idea as to where to start, but the goal must always be to let hard factual data / input be the final diagnostic end all. Process of diagnosing is part science, part instinct, and part experimentation. Read the plug and boot and replace accordingly.
Unfortunately upper intake removal is necessary to gain access to the coils and plugs, but you are correct and I'm doing everything I can to prove whether or not I need to do that 😉
Interested in part 2 also. Saw which I didn't know in petrol injector engine. You have to balance reset all injectors. As timing slightly out. Can only be done on expensive scanner tools not a self DIY 😒. Good luck from Capetown
Great work again
Great video as always.
Question: What solution are you using in the spray bottle??
Thank you for another perfekt video!!!
I know I would struggle with this one. Actually because it's 2 wire COP maybe I would not, but if it's 3 wire and I can't see secondary, that would be a huge struggle. I mean ignition related misfire on idle and not at load... how often do you see that... If it was 3 wire COP, the way to go I think would be to swap that number two coil and plug. But as I said, idle only misfire would put me far awy from even thinking that direction.
Greetings from Serbia.
Had 2 of those 3.6 with int misfires due to faulty valve seating. Many had recalls for replacement cylinder head. Both vehicles had misfires on the front center cylinder. Last one sounded normal during compression cranking (sans gauge) but ended up with only 60 psi with compression gauge attached.
I see u taking the tips Scanner ..u are awesome .gotta keep us sumth 2 click on
Thank u for some great instruction.
Curious to know if it was a OEM coil used or aftermarket or maybe they used anti seiz compound and got some on the porcelain. I wish I still had access to a 4-gas. Block tester works most of the time.
nice work Mate 👍
Just had one of these..same motor same symptoms. Referbisded the heads and found the exhaust valve on cylinder 1 was stuck. Code P0301 Replaced the valves too. That got rid of the misfire. I also thought it was ignition related. Thats what it feels like. Little rumble coming from driver seat.
Love the comments! lol
Anxious to see part 2....
Is it cold solder joint on the computer's coil output signal? Shorted coil blowing drivers? Or a defective spark plug with no ground strap?
If it was a solder joint in the ecm, we'd have seen that in the primary current ramp test 😉 Same thing with a shorted coil or driver issue.
Secondary ignition problem? I need to do a little research. Great video guys thx so much
I went through a 6 month nightmare on one of these. It also had cylinder 2 misfire and it had a new coil and spark plug in cylinder 4. I found cylinder 2 low on compression. This was last year around july and I ended up finding low compression on cylinder 2 due to valve sealing issue. Burnt exhaust seat. I get it back together after waiting 3 months on a cylinder head from Mother Mopar. I even took the old head to a machine shop and they could not get the valve seats. So I get it back together and its tapping from the rear of the engine. Its my own fault for not hearing it in the first place but It ended up being roller rocker failed.
Love you ...love you...love you from my heart 💖💖💖💖💖 best teacher in the world
Thank you!
You looking solid danner lol! Thanks for the awesome video!
Been back to the gym for a few months. 😉
Was slacking over the past few years
Great video
I agree with the techs that are suspecting cyl head. Have had several myself that failed cyl leakage tests. Known problem with 3.6 liter Chrysler penstar engine!!!
Pentastar 3.6 is known to have poorly machined valve seats. Results in cyl 2 misfires. There’s a recall for it. That’s why it’s the first recommendation in the troubleshooting tree. I have one in my wrangler and it had to have the cylinder head replaced under 5k mi
Hey Scanner Danner awesome Tec videos you can reach a larger audience here on TH-cam I miss the Hands-On back in the old class days at Rosedale continue to share the knowledge God bless take care
Is this my friend Alex? Former student at RTC??
@@ScannerDanner yes sir it IS my friend Paul.
@@ScannerDanner yes it is me my friend. Good to see the videos AND to hear from you.
@@alexisjohnson9608 oh man! It is so good to hear from you my brother. I miss you man. It has been a really long time. I hope you are doing well and your spirit is well too. It certainly was not the last time we spoke. May the God of peace be with you every single day. Are you still local?
@@ScannerDanner hello brotha Paul good to hear back from you. I'm doing well thank you. It has been to long brotha. Searched hi and low for you man and then just decided to leave a comment and pray 🙏 you would read it and reply. You looking huge man and good to see u and ur son working together on different projects. Hopefully one day we can get together so we can catch up even more my brotha. Stay Strong and keep up the good work.
Good job
AgainAgain thank you very much I love your videos and it’s awesome when you talk to your brother on the videos it’s a lot of fun thank you very much man God bless you say hello to your brother he’s a cool man👀🌿
Glad you like them!
Found idle miss fires on some ford 3.0 liter 4 valve engines to be burned exhaust valves, usually you can hear it while cranking but got fooled by that because it was so slightly burned and the misfire monitor was picking it up. Also found 4.6 liter engines with head gasket leaks into the cylinder and would miss when cold, took a while to find put the pressure tester on and let sit overnight pulled the plug and found slight amount of coolant on the center of plug.
With that misfire check engine light did you have the stop/start warning light come on as well? I'm chasing a similar issue but the S/S light comes on too.
All good stuff
I seen people say cylinder head and there was a call back / service bulletin on the first 3 years of the production of the pentastar 3.6 l cylinder head causing misfire on the #1 bank but it's usually all 3 cylinders on that bank. They ussually fail a cylinder leak down test .
Sounds like it will be back for a rocker arm. Super common I used to replace these rocker arms weekly ( 10 year CJD master technician ). Normally the exhaust rocker arms would make no change in sound when they fail.
Someone else mentioned an engine noise too and this engine had zero mechanical noise from memory. I believe the camera mic was picking up the injectors in a few shots as it was attached to me and I was leaving into the engine bay
Like #20
Thanks for the video!
Looking for part 2!
13:05 good ole 350 vortec leaking around the injector connector. Seen that trick before 😂
You got so many tests at your disposal it's all about picking the right one
Exactly!!
learned a lot
Hey Dan, ive had misfires with these 3.6 engines and lifters stick and the roller rocker roller itself wears out
Had a missfire only at idle or stop lights (park or drive idle) . Was driving me crazy since I know most of the stuff is new , turned out to be one spark plug (all replaced with new ones ) . It got a small crack on it. (No eng light ) New parts going bad in minutes can drive you clueless really fast .
Great video this is Paul i have been caught out by this before, had a vauxhall with a dead misfire on cyl.2 put a coil pack on it and the misfire was still there and STILL on number 2 cyl. Would you believe it was a faulty coil pack causing the misfire on the SAME cylinder …. Crazy stuff man
I have the same motor. I reused that intake gasket 2 times. I know it says you can't. But I had no issues
Get it all set up, won't break, story of my life.
Happen to probably all of us before if there if there is a new part that is the last part in question but so many aftermarket parts fail
good
@ 26:05 Grammy Danner must really be praying for you, Paul, LOL
🤣🤣 I'm dying, yes she absolutely would be for that rant
Was it a blue streak coil?
My sister is a master mechanic and also an automotive tech teacher at a tech school in Martinsburg WV...do you have any pointers or words of advice if she was thinking of making videos for everyone like you do???
What about a crank sensor issue? Or a pcm update
Wonder if he's going to swap to another cylinder.
Edit: in the end I guess thats what he'll do. Lol but I love you did the other stuff to keep it informative. The 1 on 5 might be a false read.
I’ve done 4 camshafts in the past year on these.
First one took my lunch. Second I was okay.
Third and fourth I just pulled the valve cover on bank 2 and there it was.
I can swap a cam on bank 2 in about 45 minutes now lol
Problem is the intake has to come off, so all this testing was to prove that is what is needed to continue.
@@ScannerDanner understandable. I don’t personally have a lab scope nor the experience to use one as effectively as you do.
But I do have a fair bit of experience with those 3.6 pentastars and can have that plenum off in 15-20 minutes lol so I go with what I know
3.6 pentastar from Chrysler had a lot of issues with the cylinder heads. They even extended the warranty on those heads
Your the coolest. My question is my truck has a number 3 cylinder misfire and same thing goes a bunch of stuff had been changed out basically throwing money at it changed the plug wire and it's a 96 Chevy Silverado 5.7 c1500 and I was thinking the same thing, did I just get a bad plug or a bad wire but I have yet changed them out again to test that but I was wondering if an ignition coil for that truck could possibly just cause a number 3 misfire? Just curious as my brother is a mechanic and been doing it for like 38 years and he's always busy training other mechanics and working as a recon manager for a dealership. He gives me help when he can but I wanted to kind of see what you think. Ignition control module was changed out IAC was changed out TPS was changed out cap and rotor was changed out but it's just a misfire on cylinder 3. I was leaning toward injector and if it is the injector or spider injector system I was going to get the upgraded injector system anyhow because the original spider injectors on those trucks actually kind of suck and plug up fairly easy with this crappy gas we have these days. I used to run non-ethanol gas in it but because of the prices I now run 87 and then an injector cleaner which I may be wrong for doing this in the first place. Great video though I love it I've watched two of your videos so far since I come across you and you really really know your stuff pretty well.
check compression on that cylinder. search "relative compression sound test" on my channel. Easiest one to do
I’m not a mechanic, but could that be a cracked boot and as the rubber heats, it loses the path to ground and operates properly?
What is the "ticking" sound coming from? There was a time our 2011 Durango Express 3.6 ran smoothly, always using premium fuel here in Georgia. Now, at 167,000 miles, it's making the same "ticking" sound as the one you're working on.
Valve seat issue or carboned up valves…
On to the video. :)
Just curious, if it was a bad coil or a plug, my guess it has a bad lifter, or a rocker arm, or cam lobe, I worked for a Chrysler for the past 15 years, thanks always looking for new info
I'm pretty sure I proved the fault in the waveform of the secondary.
Wow. You would think they would
Know if the problem started after a tune up to look for bad parts?
Let us know.
👍 can't get enough of this channel. Can the secondary ignition waveforms be used to indicate the condition of the spark plugs? Thank you!
Thank you! Condition as in wear or an increased air gap? It would be hard to pick that out but it would increase your firing line a bit. But if the plug is open or shorted, yes, you'll absolutely see that in the waveform, but further investigation would be needed because a bad wire or coil can look similar
@@ScannerDanner
Copy that. I was thinking of a coil on plug setup to judge if it were time to change the plugs.
Thanks for the lessons!
@@James-fs4rn got it, and yeah, when I see a messed up secondary waveform, there are times that I cannot differentiate whether it is a bad plug or coil, so I move coils and plug around when possible
Hey off question, what 5 gas analyzer set up was that?
PA state emissions machine. One of the few tailpipe test machines left here.
sometime when u get a little time can you explain what your listening for when u hold the pedal to the floor and try and start it?
Watch the first part of this video th-cam.com/video/5i-vaXSeukE/w-d-xo.html I go over it in detail
FREAKING LOVE THOSE CASES....THE ONES U THINK U GOT IT!!DAMMMMM I LOVE THEM......
I've been working on an '19 3.6 for a couple weeks. Swapped parts several times. Dealer said camshaft and rockers. Still have a idle miss that gets worse and worse as it warms up. New lash adjusters, rockers, camshaft, injectors and coils. Still has a miss. Compression is good, all wiring was checked. Just at a loss. When I pulled the cam, left exhaust, it did look bad and I was sure that was the issue till I replaced it and nothing changed.
Solus still shows #2 secondary miss fire. Swapped plugs and coils and nothing changed again.
you need to do a running compression test. It is common to have good static compression and have poor running compression from a valve issue. And it will also be an idle only type misfire. An in-cylinder pressure transducer on a lab scope would be ideal, but you may be able to catch it with a regular gauge
Position 200 REV counter which means? I have Durango too and i have misfire problem on idle.
Gooood
Is the 3.6 direct injection...
I couldn't quit looking at that red Camaro. I used to have a 76 same basic color.
We have all been there Paul.
Why didn't i do that to begin with. Kicking myself .
Miss at idle only? My first thing would be to use vaccum gauge first for diag. Then i would smoke intake to check for any vacuum leak on that intake run er of missing cyl. I would lokk at plug very closely and then finally do a compression check and leakdown test on cylinder in question. Lean miss on that cyl ??
Intake manifold covers the coils and plugs and must be removed so that would alter ones direction a bit 😉
Nice video hey Danner I don't know if you can help me I have a 1997 Nissan Altima 2.4l with 87,857 miles the problem is I have a intermittent rough idle or idle surging I have cleaned the mass air flow cleaned the throttle body this one has a tps sensor and put an new air filter installed a idle air control valve check for vacuum leaks had 2 cracked hoses fixed it also the intake manifold gasket looks good and checked fuel pressure it was good the fuel pump was replaced a couple years back it still has the problem when I put it in drive or put load on it feels like it is gonna stall out and no check engine light
As crazy as it sounds, I've seen a few older Nissan have surgine idles caused by bad battery terminals. Make sure they're clean, tight and the cables are in good shape. Also, if I remember right, they have a minimum throttle position relearn procedure that's supposed to be done after messing with the throttle body or IAC. I don't rember exactly how to do them though. It's worth looking into and it cost nothing to try it.
What are your fuel trim numbers during the rough idle and when it's not rough. Do the water test i showed in this video. Intake gasket leak is a common problem and you may not find it with a hot engine
@@kolton5543 but it is a 97 isn't it old I don't don't there is a throttle body relearn
You'd be surprised by the stuff a car can do in 97. It's not a throttle body learn but a minimum air flow learn. The ECM needs to know the limits of the IAC and how much air is flowing into the engine at those limits for it to properly regulate the air flow. I'm not saying it's your problem nor am I saying it for sure has a learn procedure for it. I'm not super familiar with the older nissans. All I'm saying, I'm pretty sure I remember dealing with a similar issue a while back and I think that's what I had to do to fix it. It's been a while though and I tend to forget things after fixing another 1k cars.
What kind of scope he used at the end? To check the formware of coil ? I need that tool 😂
Picoscope I believe
I always look at mode 6 and ffd look at engine temp
ScannerDanner Premium members need to hear the unedited audio! 😎😈👌🏼
lol
Would random p0300 cause same even after packs/ spark plug replaced?
Injector and compression issues can cause a p0300, as well as vacuum leaks and headgasket issues
Check TSBs?
👍
Cylinder head. We changed 12 this year
Nice camaro
when doing the hydro carbon test itmay be wise to allow the coolant to cycle as the thermostat may stop the air from coming to the bottle .......
For sure 👍. Engine was hot and that is also why I burped some fresh stuff into the overflow and retested. Hope that made sense why I did that.