Dogfight with a Real Pilot Mirage 2000 V F-16 Viper | Digital Combat Simulator | DCS | Part 3
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 29 ก.ย. 2024
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Big thank you to ATE for coming out and doing this video don't forget to check out his channel link below, thank you all for watching and take care.
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Which F-16 skin were you using for this one?
Wikipedia says the current giat 30mm cannons on desault rafale are faster than m61 how is this?
Kill cam music?
I would LOVE to see him and C.W. Lemoine going at it. He using the Mirage and C.W the hornett. That would epic don’t you agree Sidewinder?
Still wanna see you in an F-14 vs Ate in his Mirage2000
Haha,
Thanks fot the invite GS!
Yes flying slower is also a way to preserve yourself physically - and getting an easy fox 2 or 3 on any other aircraft looking at joining the fight!
That's what it looks like under "g's" (above 350kts you really start pulling) centrifuge training with the USN > th-cam.com/video/AYvX4ElTL08/w-d-xo.html Fly safe guys!
thanks again ate, hopefully we can do something like this again in the future. take care man
Since a Fox 3 can be launched from 40-60 miles away, and you get 3 miles notice when it goes PitBull, you're the sitting duck doing 200 knots floating around in the same square mile of aerobatic box. Nice tactics in a dogfight though, and maybe in a Fox-2 fight, assuming he doesn't use terrain or telemetry and get his Fox-2 off first. Presumably you're keeping your nose pointed at the Viper, so his 24 dpm turn rate becomes your roll rate, so how is your SA any better? Bandit enters on your 90 with you rolling away and fires a Fox-2. BOOM.
I think what Growling neglected is that in a vertical fight lower speeds mean gravity has a bigger impact on turn. At the top of a 3G loop gravity is making it a 4G radius, meaning much higher rate of turn than you might expect. At the bottom you pick up speed again, pull more Gs, so you don't lose as much turn rate as you picked up at the top. I imagine the F16 can beat the mirage in a vertical turn fight, but it would require a bit more complex speed management. A constant speed would be going too fast at the top of the loop for max turn rate, and too slow at the bottom.
You should go in the F-22, then nobody would beat you :)
@@CaptainBiggles. p51 intensifies
11:11 clip is one of the most beautiful shots I’ve seen in DCS
I honestly think this might be my favorite GS video.
I know I'm late to these, but I'm loving them.
I really good one Growling. I'm sure you were sweating
what's the name of this song? 12:55
I've been waiting for this one!
run it back, run it back
Name of songs during replays?
Mr. Sidewinder, I wanted to take a second or two to tell you that the videos on this channel are nothing short of amazing. I myselft am a USN veteran, (Avionics Technician 2nd Class, VFA-151, CVN-72). It's rather amazing being able to sit and watch how all of this stuff actually works in flight. I spent countless hours upon hours sitting in the cockpit of an F-18 during my service, more than most pilots will spend in an entire career, the big difference is that I never sat in the seat while the aircraft was moving. Also, the way you explain this stuff with your tone and patience makes you one of the better teachers I have ever had, military or other. Thanks again, and keep up the good work!!
Hey man that’s very kind of you thank you for leaving such an awesome comment this is the kind of thing that makes me want to keep making these videos very grateful to have people like you who support me via this channel. Ur the man buddy
Thanks for your service sir.
Thank you for your service 👍🇺🇸
Best comment!
Thankyou for your service.
It is really eye opening to see an opponent who knows what hes doing. While most dcs pilots (me included) make decisions late, after things have fully cristallized, you can really see how his thoughts are always way ahead of his own jet and he never seems surprised or uncertain. Amazing! Really enjoyed watching the last videos with ate!
Is there any chance for you to get him to do a tac-view-debrief together with you, that would be even more eye-opening for all of us I am sure!
Ate is like an AI on hard.
A debrief with Ate would be cool
@@cynthiabauer5763 ya because ai know exactly how the game works but they are set on hard so they utilize their information to the best of their ability... truly scary
I dont think je is allowed too do that
Damn that French killer again? I hope I dont run into him on a DCS server online....
I hope I dont either lol
On a server it would be primarily BVR I'd think, and that's a lot more airframe dependent
@@paytongrill2222 even in bvr you have tactics that allows you to win, he might not use it tho since it's classified
@@tm.8399 I mean of course there's still tactics in BVR, but like I said, it's airframe dependent. Against anybody decent I'd expect even this guy would get spanked by a Tomcat if he's flying a Mirage.
@@paytongrill2222 I would expect nothing since we don't know the condition and it did never happen
Atè : so we meet again, for the last time
GS : not today Atè
Atè : hold my croissant
Jacob Thornton Nice Toy Story 2 reference
Thanks
Thank you very much dude for this serie with Até. Greetings from France.
Oui, je confirme un vrai régal
My brother is learning French
@@samueltheblonde okk mec
My friend once said "suce ma bite" not knowing what it was and I just laughed out loud XD
Dude, you really should give yourself a bit more credit. Very few people in DCS can go up against an actual pilot, and not only survive, but even win like half the rounds. Thats an amazing achivement, you should be proud!
You know that still a game
@@mudmud. Yes, of course? Whats your point?
@@w0mbatina what do you mean ?
@@w0mbatina that a game ate dont have many hours on dcs you rly think the game is like Real life ? Even if its a realistic game that still a game and i dont Say that sidewinder is Bad but he got way more hours at dcs that ate have
@@w0mbatina and take the ping fps and button 2 weaks ago ate dont even know how to use the gun radar
Ate is a boss, I've never known you to sweat so much with an opponent. That sigh of relief when you ripped his wing off in the first fight was real haha!
The French touch. From French
@@aquanaute17 Merci de votre gentillesse (et manœuvres!) Bien joué.
What would be cool is possibly find a pilot from each modern aircraft and fly with them. I know C.W Lemoine wont do BVR but he might do guns. Since he flew both the f18 and f16
I would love to watch a former Tomcat pilot try the tomcat in dcs. See if the tomcat actually handled the way it does IRL vs the way it handles in dcs.
There are some differences probably but still I think that he would be better than any DCS player with this aircraft.
Why wont cw do bvr?
He will, but he won't anything that hints at actually tactics.
Actual F14 pilots do fly the F14 In DCS. It's the same pilots who helped give advice and consulted Heatblur.
All right, we get a Tomcat pilot, but the catch is that we get Mover to just constantly shout "Tomcats!" over and over in the video.
3:25 As that old saying goes:
"Knowing what your enemy is going to do is different than preventing him from doing it."
"let me think.. nah no russians" read: "oh yeah thats classified, that's classified too ok nope never shot that SU-30"
Lol
@@almeidaariel9 dude a mirage can only compete with the su-27 and the Chinese su 30 if the mirage goes against a sm or a mkm or a mki its going to be an unfair fight !
not really @@rudrakshamukherjee8318
I always wondered why would anyone dislike such videos, then got here early and saw the 0 dislike counter and the Devil started talking in my ears. :D
lold
=/
they are the Druids who, being frustrated in their miserable existence, hate everything and everyone who has an adornment of excellence and refinement.
I think people dislike because a French pilot tried a head-on shot which is extremely unrealistic..
Whoever disliked this video should be strapped to a target drone. 🎯
Mille mercis et àté souhaits! 🤧
I rarely post comments in any videos but this is solid content. GS you're one of my top creators out of the hundreds of channels I subscribe to. Keep up the good work!
thank you Jarred very kind of you man.
One thing Ive noticed with the more experienced fighter pilots (by that I mean very experienced; 1500+ hrs in fighters is a lot of time) is that they are able to be very aggressive and essentially do "pointy BFM" but somehow they are able to control their closure enough that they dont overshoot, even when pressing a gun attack with "red light" aspect cues. The ABCs of aerial gunnery: Aspect, Buffet, Closure. They seem to be able to just go for guns immediately, aspect be damned, and use their experience and expertise to manage closure and prevent overshoot.
It's impressive.
Did Até finally found the radar command ? 😋
Yes I showed him that in the last video lol
@@GrowlingSidewinder next time fly the mirage f3 against him...😉
I've commented on every ATE video... MORE ATE!
is not Ate is Atée :D
Can you do a video where two A10's dogfight? Would love your perspective on it.
nah more like an A-10 vs a Frogfoot
Simp that would be such a boring fight a-10 can actually turn but the su 25 is just a school bus.
@@i475 What a simp
@@i475 Both possibilities are awesome...although gatling 30 mm vs gatling 30 mm sounds a bit more enticing.
That's a great idea! Enough of these supersonic top tier birds, get the flying buses in the mix!
I came here for this 20:52 I just wanted confirmation. Thank you so much, GS for the video. I enjoyed it so much, especially the talks with Ate. Such an eye-opener. DCS is one thing, real life is another. Also came to know about the fuel limitations of an F16, during a conventional dogfight. That's why in real life, F16 always carry fuel tanks and then people ask why? Well, there is your answer. It has to otherwise it won't last long enough for a dogfight. That's why also F16 carry BVR missiles and the aircraft was designed in such a way that it plays to its strength. Can we have more of such videos where we come to know more nitty-gritty details about other aircraft? Thanks again for the video. I loved it :D
This channel has good in depth info.good editing . Good tense moments. All for free . Thanks gs for this free content made with passion . Subbed
hey thank you for the kind words and welcome to the channel.
Ate is a real champion to all of us sim heads out here - Thanks GS and cheers to Ate!
Man I was freaking nervous cuz I love the f16 soooo much and when I finally saw growling turn the table I was so happy!!!
SAMEE!!!
So take a look at the second round, 😁😁😁
@@TOMCATnbr I did...
@@grigorispanousis9745 you could always say that Growler, albeit being a very good DCS player, can t really compete against an ex pilote in his type of plane, so the fact tgat G manage to score an win is very impressive so +1 for the f16
Note that Até missed a few important shots at first, probably not being used to aiming in DCS and with no VR to give true 3D vision. With more experience with the sim, this fight would have been over real quick.
I can imagine GS screaming in is head:
"Get that point triangle of my tail!! PLEASE!!!"
The interaction between the way the F-16's engineered in relation to the Mirage and how the Pilot's mindset affects the behavior of the jet is just so cool to watch, two points of view within the same "vehicle".
Ate's expertise is beautifully shown within seconds and soon it clashes against Sidewinder's own skills and understanding of DCS in contrast to Ate's to bring it all down to this beautiful, masterfully orchestrated dance full of little nodges and nuances that almost makes you forget that these Jets are made for killing. It's really fun to watch.
How do you get it so that TrackIr works so well? Mine loses track looking up sometimes...
Search for spudnocker's track ir profile
Yup, this is what i need this Tracklr thing.. makes the experience better.. also how many monitors do you need 1? 2? 4?
@@twistedneck 1 works fine for me, you just have to get used to the head movements
His aggression is so scary. I’ve watched so many of these dcs dogfights videos and Ate is on another level 😱
The best defense is a great offense.
Sidewinder, most of the time you were not rate fighting but rate running :-D
Very nice of you to put up a dogfight which everybody requested for!! Ate was awesome!!!
Pulling gs in a Mirage is like turning a pizza box into the wind when you're driving.
It's 3 am and never heard of dc nor the jargon
But boy did i have fun watching this
Those were *incredible* dogfights. So close on both sides and your comments made it very clear what was happening when and why. The fight made sense for me all along the encounter 👍
A rare 'like' given for the reason why there's no BVR info from pilots. Gud video as always!
I guess the G forces prevent these tactics as noone can bear those for so long.
Pilots can bear
@@sule.A Even IF they can, they wouldn't be able to keep visual on the target because they wouldn't be able to move their neck/head, those dogfights would be completely different
Ok
The usually end a lot quicker then this
F-16 pilot cant rate fight at 9Gs forever will eventually get fatigued loosen turn allowing m2000 to slip in
I'm still not used to calling the F-16 a "viper." I've always called them "Falcon."
Agreed, although it's no different to calling the A10 a Warthog really.
Great flying guys 👍🏻 you know I honestly expect Ate to perform as such being a real trained combat fighter pilot, but what really shows is how freakin good you are GS. Much respect to both you.
Cheers “Mako”.
It is good to see you finally sweating in these fights! I've learned a lot from your channel, and seeing this is nice. I am wondering, given 1 vs 2 circle fights, vertical fights, etc if you could spend some time on transitioning into/out of a "bad situation" for your fighter or into a better tactic. E.g., with you in the viper you want a rate fight, how can someone force you out of that, how can you force it back in?
What's that music during the kill footage from?
+1
+2
+3
+4
"Angelic Choir Divine Elevation" by Allen Grey (none of you have Shazam? 😉)
You should link up with and do some fights against Mover. He's another youtuber but was also a real F18 and F16 pilot
IMHO. Até did a small mistake in the first fight. Not all delta are equals.
The Rafale has a much better sustained turn speed.
In the Mirage, Até spent too much keeping you in the HUD while out of range, so he is seating inside the turn but too far.
It's more interesting to stay in the control the zone, keeping the target just above the canopy bow.
That way you can fly below 15° AoA and accelerate.
Once in range you can pull the lead for the kill.
Off course, easier said than done.
Nonetheless, that fight last for 8 minutes, which would be incredibly long in open environment.
Either one of you could be killed by someone else (wingman, SAM...)
Ate has said also in his recent video on his second channel that what GS is doing is impossible IRL. You can't turn like that with a F16 at 7g+ on the deck for ages. No pilot can sustain this amount of G for so long.
That's also why Ate is so agressive.
what is the name of the music when you kill aircraft ???
Not even Shazam can answer our prayers
C'mon! You sound like this is the end of this superb cross-over cooperation. You want a riot, is that what you want?! :-D
Seriously, I think these sessions with ATE should become a regular feature. Let's say, once a month, BFM GS VS ATE. You didn't do Tomcats, which is a scandal btw... So much more fun to share!
Anyway thank you very much for the experience, was at least twice as awsome as I thought it would get!
Hello GS Sir this is Aryan Jaiswal here from INDIA and your so called student
From 0 to hero from your Friends to against a Real fighter pilot you are always evolving and your sarcastic nature nature is evolving too Its all your hardwork due to which SIR ATE considered this platform useful
In our Air Force inventory also it consist of Delta wing Fighters from MIRAGE 2000C, TEJAS (India's indigenious aircraft you and my dream aircraft as well ) and now we also have the RAFALE
Under both of you lethal dogfighters I Think this content will provide an edge to my training as well
Once I become I pilot I gonna fight you 1 vs 1
Good luck GS
ARYAN JAISWAL
INDIA
Imagine a dogfight b/w C.W Lemoine and Até
Dudeeeee it felt good when you got him.. the F-16 ❣️ pure love!!!
it would've been cool if ATE could be in the tac view debrief discussing what he was thinking during the fight.
You can find his side of the fight on his channel!
And don't forget guys if you become a fighter pilot you could never make BVR on DCS again x)
I know I'm being "that guy" but, no pilot is going to sustain over 7-9gs for that long in a rate. I was watching the g meter and it was basically at 8.5 every time. Whoever makes the mistake first will usually be the dead one. Correct?
Well, I did tend to think like that, but ATE on his channel made comments about getting solidly used to G forces, to the point it did not really hamper focus.
th-cam.com/video/AYvX4ElTL08/w-d-xo.html (maybe was this one but I'm not sure. Anyway you won't loose your time checking his other vids lol) ;-)
You usually pull a lot initially but that is why I often go into slow speeds - enables you to recover and regain SA ( make sure nobody else is coming -ask for reinforcements etc etc) - but sustain above 4g to 5g doesn t last too long IRL
@@ATECHUET Cool! Thanks for the reply! Love watching ya work your magic.
Great mini series, admired a LOT... you guys are awesome, keep it coming PLS
This is impressive although impossible in real life as the Viper was sustaining over 7 g’s for minutes on end and even up to 9 for a extended periods. Even if the pilot could physically cope (which I don’t think even the best could) they would not be to effectively get shots on target the way that you could on the computer.
You should duel in F-5's. That would be interesting to watch. Thanks to both of you for putting all this content out! It's reinvigorating my desire to play DCS (haven't for a few weeks).
Having that french pilot in your 6 is like having a guided missile with guns on it, freaking awsome
this is fore every mad fan: look in real-life scenarios this would be an easy win by the real pilot...think why yourself
Not sure if you're trolling
In real-life the best DCS pilot will passed out after the first turn against a real Military pilot, what's your point ?
@@ChrisKardiake quite literally yeah
@Growling Sidewinder - I don't know diddly-squat about dogfighting, but I do have a question about your tactics.
In the second engagement, what I saw was that you had stayed in basically a series of vertical loops, where the Mirage would lose tons of airspeed over the top, but would get inside your circle.
Why did you choose to keep sustaining the same single maneuver? (In the first engagement, you stayed in a high-G right turn for almost the entire duration of the engagement). Why not mix it up?
For example: In your second engagement, you know he's behind you and bleeding off speed over the top faster than you do, so why not break left or right at the top of the loop and force him to engage you on your terms? By sitting in the same sustained maneuver, it looked to me like you were sitting there and *waiting* for him to come around and shoot you.
I'm not attacking you, I'm asking you to explain your tactic.
Huge PROPS for Polish livery!! :)
i realy love the design of f16 allways did ! what a beauty :D
OK, now we want to see you guys OUT of your comfort zones. Bring Atè to do some ground pounding with the A-10C, or maybe some dogfight with the WWII birds. It will be a fun video.
love your videos! i feel like you arent flying at your best vs Ate though. in round1, you were arcing around him at 500-600 knots, just letting him sit inside your huge radius for ages, i was wondering wtf you were doing... as soon as you got your speed down to between 330-440 you had him in 2 turns...
He’s so good he makes me look bad ahah maybe I was being dumb a little to be fair I dunno
First congrats on nice flying, but yes imho to beat Ate you need to do three things, first, deny his ability to gain on you at the merge. Being on +500 KTS indicated I guess i'd try to go vertical with him and at the top turn it into horizontal downwind spiral. At first at lower Gs to get to the 420-460 kts range and keep it there. Second thing is to drag M2k down. It's delta, great for high speed and incredible nose authority but draggy as hell at high AoA, the more dense air is the worse for him. Last thing is to deny him ability to regain energy. I'd try to keep my speed in 420kts range slice your turns @~15deg nose down attitude. Once Ate would try to pull for the lead i'd pull my nose to about 5deg up to break his firing solution, then go back to slicing turn. Once down to 3000 ft or less I'd make my turns more flat and try to keep Viper sligtly above corner speed. Down there each pull for the lead schould cost M2k lots of speed, so at the moment when I'd have speed advantage I'd try to build slight altitude advantage and use it to pull more Gs. and start to gain angles. If threaten I'd extend using super Vipers acceleration, then reenter the fight.
BTW in the first turn when Ate was trying to get head on shot at the deck, I think you've made a mistake. You've should already know he's dead, so (imho) you shouldn't go for head on but rather go vertical. Ate was way to slow to follow you, and you'd get space to turn at him and place yourself in firing position.
P.S. love that Polish 302 Sqn Memorial Raven skin.
P.P.S I'd love to see Ate in M2k vs Mower in Viper or Hornet. That'd be uber cool to watch .
@@6XENO9 if he goes vertical it will be more likely for two circle fight
@@sule.A Which is what GS wanted, 2-circle rate fight. One-circle favours M2k, because of better AoA authority.
Great video Ate is a deadly adversary real pilot’s are always looking for advantages and are always on the hunt, thanks for the show.
What is raid fight and one circle fight? I just randomly stumbled upon this whole dcs rabbit hole and now I can’t stop watching these dogfight videos. I’m obsessed it’s like its own sub category of internet culture
You said third and final fight ?. Hopefully you don't mean no more GS v. AtE fights these are intense.
It's painful to watch though, GS is among the best DCS fighters but clearly hopelessly weak against Ate. There's way too much gap in knowledge and training each have had.
@@すどにむ I didn't get that impression. GS did get kills on him I think in every video.
Only after Ate failed multiple times to compensate for DCS ballistics. That doesn't count.
Merci pour cette série avec ATE. Ta chaine TH-cam est vraiment géniale !
Growling Sidewinder, I've been watching all of your videos over the last few months ..super impressed with your descriptions and teachings! and this latest series with Ate is special.. that flip twist move! and parking in your turning circle at like 160kts. wow.
If you are a new dcs player and want to play in the methods of these videos how do you setup the head view so you can easily look at the enemy.. is it the mouse and you fly with the other hand? looking ahead and finding you enemy seems to be the biggest thing i have not figured out yet. Thanks for they great work.
He'll be using a piece of technology called Track IR more than likely. Other people use VR headsets.
I know I have a hard enough time not hitting the ground when I'm looking forward. Lol
I'm sure what was recommended is probably much better. What I have done so far is to bind the "center view" command to a button on my flight stick. That way I can use the hat to look around then snap back to level forward when I choose.
If you're zoomed in real close on the SU-25 when you hit that button you'll get an extreme closeup of the area right below the glass.
@@coldnova That is perfect and not nearly as expensive as a full zillon dollar VR setup. Combine that with the Thrustmaster T16000M and its pretty affordable if you play in medium graphics mode. Cheap but it will do for now!!
Sorry, I love you getting beat LOL! You generally out maneuver everybody.. this dude is no joke. Glad the real thing translates well to the sim. I think it speaks to the accuracy / modeling of DCS.
ATE's accent is great. now i'm gonna call it "Fucks Too".
Stupid idea: could you do a warbird fight with him?
Not stupid, just an older fighter platform with a different platform and flight dynamics
Can you fight again but this time with fox 2's?
All of your videos are top notch . I realty enjoy them I look forward to them . I am an old pilot and enjoyed flying very much .
Thank you very much
"31 sec ago" gotta go fast to see ATE kicking some asses again
Ate, Thanks for sharing your stories and sparing with GS. GS awesome work as always. Keep it up. Cheers
my pleasure glad you enjoyed.
Next time: Dogfight with real AI: DARPAtv "AlphaDogfight Trials Final Event"
I notice that a lot of times, you can see the bandit while we can't. Do you have a really good screen resolution or is this because of TH-cam compression or something else? Nice video btw, I like this series of videos a lot.
That’s exactly correct I can see a little spec and TH-cam compression kills that upon uploading
@@GrowlingSidewinder got it
Très bonne question !
Every time you put that sad instant-replay song, I'm expecting a slow-motion shot of Aragorn taking the Hobbits away as Gandalf provides some narration...
"Give them a moment, for Pity's sake!!"
my god u make this look so beautiful with that music overlay
Now you just need Willam Defoe doing an interpretive dance to the killcam to go with the music
This is the best thing I’ve watched in a very long time
Glad you enjoyed man
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This Ate guy is pretty good at this game he should become a real pilot
Very nice series of videos with Ate!
DCS needs to work on the damage animations so weird to see your wing despawn when its hit and a fire floating where your wing was.
agreed it bothers me every time.
It seems if you are fighting a Mirage 2000 never let it have altitude over you. If it ends up on your 6, you can turn-rate and spiral up to get away.
Great video. You lasted that long because he is not used to aiming the guns, it's very tricky on the M2000. What i know is that to be a fighter pilot takes an incredibly absorbing mind and one that continually accepts critique. Most of us wouldn't survive first week of ground training and instructors would crush you to tears whenever they sense cockiness. It's a team game.
Outstanding, just outstanding content, many thanks for this GS & Ate!
Why do you fly with g-simulation off?
because G sim is incorrect in DCS, there is no reason why a modern fighter pilot should be almost half blacked out under 3 seconds of 8G, and if the G effect is on, the viper literally can not sustain the 9G it was meant to fight at because DCS blacks you out. F-16 Pilots train to maintain 9G for at least 30 seconds and you can't do that in DCS theyre working on it to be fair to them but until they fix it, I wont turn it on its way too limiting in modern aircraft, works really well for world war 2 era stuff tho.
I saw a video of gripen accelarating in a 9G turn.he pulled 9G for 15 sec
Plus am i flooding your notifications?
As long as i have been watching your videos, i have to say that this is the first time i have ever seen u defensive for such a long time, u got some sick flying skills..
Great learning video as always
Question: GS talks a lot about "raid fight" compar to one/two circle. Havent found what raid fight means..little help please? Thanks
Rate fight mate, how many degrees per second thru a turn in a sustained turn not to be confused with corner (corner is not sustainable) (max rate speeds are sustainable)
Bro 13:30 has me unstoppably laughing 😂😂
Justin Would be a great 1-2 second clip to randomly post completely out of context somewhere
JozMk. II lol
Thats was realy something special. And you beat him on his speciality GS. Thanks Ate. This is the best Chanel ever and just a glimps of how it is in rl is an honner. Yeah i tried 37and the 39 on the (big) sims and loved it. This is way over me and dreams. 👏👏
What are the minimum requirements for a pc on this game
Aye aye aye aye, what's up with the condensate visual effects on flanker, I don't remember those in release, are they adding them in the OB? Great series btw, loved those 3 videos!
Does you can do a fox 2 fight with até ??
Could you ask him how good the italians are?
the question is; who can stay sane pulling 8Gs(f-16) for how many minutes