YES, YOU CAN have high-end speakers @ Low Cost, but ....
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 17 มิ.ย. 2024
- After several years in DIY, many ask for help to start their DIY adventures. Is it really as GREAT as youtubers claim it can be?
#audiophile #hifiaudio #rant #diy #stereospeakers
Open Baffle journey
• My Open Baffle Speaker...
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It’s SUMMER! Grab a cold drink & come sit by the fire and talk hi-fi.
I’m heading over 🍻🍻🍻
My DIY experience began at 9 years old: Demolish It Yourself. My mother was proud of me. ''He can get into anything!'' And she invited the neighbours to ''Bring it on over'' whenever they couldn't get into some mystifying box. But career path led me astray as a teen and I didn't get back to tinkering until decades later. In retirement it's what keeps me alive.
I've got she-ite everywhere. Multiple projects going at the same time. Amps, preamps, speakers, servers. Not a genius. I just read well, and comprehend. And if not, I'll bug somebody like Nelson to death until I do.
Now, here comes some a-hole telling me I can roll my own DAC! 🤣
I'm completely DIY minded. You know that saying, "built, not bought". That's me.
Currently building an MTM tower using 6.5" Purifi woofers and Bliesma T34b-4 tweeters.
Loic, you konw my system because I sent to you some pictures recently. I wouldn't be able to have the sound quality that I have if I didn't built amplifier and speakers myself. It was a joy to do, I have learn a lot, it is very rewarding.
You can always resale your drivers for a minimal lost but at least you have tried something and probably learn a lot on the way.
For the amp, go the safe route if your electronic knowledge is poor, buy a well renowned kit. It took me over a year to read, understand, collect the pieces, read again and again and again. I sold my first amp that I built to try my skill withing week I advertised it and never hear from it since. The second one is part of my system and will never sale it because it is so good. I know its sound quality and it helps to juge the different links of the system.
Unless DIY is your hobby, you must know where you go before hand, that said you can save a lot of money for the components you cannot DIY like the DAC or the streamer.
So all what you say is true, another very good video.
Michel
As you suggest I took the safe route for the amp. While it wasn't a kit it was one that has been built countless times, is accompanied by tons of good info, and has a great track record in terms of performance. About DACs, I felt the same way until I ran across the Gabster channel and was introduced to all the kit parts from Ian Canada. Very impressive! At the top of my list.
@@ronaldmcdonald2456 Thanks for the link, seems impressive.
@@chengo51 And please keep us posted if you do anything in that direction.
Pride in your project makes it worth it. Made Zaph ZDT3 from scratch and made mistakes but learned a lot. CSS TDX-2 kit came out beautiful. Love DIY. Save $$$.
You just put a on my face. My first diy was with pawn shop speakers, they ended up Franken-speakers with drivers hanging by wire and screwed to the face. This ended with what I wanted then made a cabinet to suit.
I like what you do relative to most audio reviewers...you make me think...if I am being totally honest with myself I went through all of this analysis and in the end purchasing my speakers was the best solution overall...and the speakers I chose for my specific space were in reality beyond my capabilities to build...what speakers did I choose...Totem Acoustic Tribe Towers...for my specific space (think NYC Loft ) no way am I going to replicate what wild Vince and his group do...where do I purchase a Torrent driver that is hand made by Totem? And that is just to start with...thanks for making me think...if I had a listening cave like yourself...different question...keep up the great work Loic...thank you for your efforts
I started my recent multi year adventure simply to figure out why the sound I got over the last decades was always shitte... eventually, after learning acoustics, I decided to build my own speakers which also became building a system for them. At this point I have delved into every aspect of audio, which now means, to me, everything from the wall studs in, so, the walls, the electricity, the internet gear, room acoustics, other stuff in the room... and many versions of the speakers. After all of this exploration I gotta say... primary gear, amp/speakers, has the least influence on the final results. But the most impactful stuff that can make or derail your adventure can be anything, a bad window in the room, a bookshelf, a network switch, wires from the crossover to the drivers, a USB cable, bad AC power.... Just buying commercial amp, preamp and speakers and not paying attention to anything else and expecting great sound.... yeah, good luck with that.
Also, messing with all aspects of everything is way more fun than spending large coin on a new something and then being bummed out forever and not knowing how to 'fix' things beyond buying a different large coin object, which, of course, will also fail... because the problem is not in the gear, it's in everything else... Cheers.
Fascinating, I am of similar opinion. I think saying that speaker/amplifier has the least amount of influence of final result, is assuming the combo works together. You can nail everything else, but the wrong amp with the wrong speakers, nothing will make that sound good. But, I think I get what you mean, and to me, as ling as that combo is logical and synergistic, the true wow factors will come when you fix everything else. And by fixing everyhting else, thats how you get inexpensive speakers and amps to sound incredible.
Power is key, room acoustics and all that you said, i agree with, but if the speakers have a shitty crossover, most if what you goes down a garbage final filter in the form of a bad cap, or noisy inductor and then people feel its all snake oil. This could be a very good chat that last 3 hrs.
Thanks for the comment! Great stuff sir
It's a hobby. All of this is part of the fun.😇
Amen!
I'm more of a diy electronics guy than a woodwork guy, I've come to realize
There are different levels of DIY. Level 1: assembly of a kit which comes as a flat pack. This is by far the easiest way to get into DIY (Just need to be able to follow instructions, know how to glue and clamp pieces together and perhaps solder) Level 2: building a kit speaker based on the plans. Now you have to have woodworking skills. But there is the possibility of knowing what others think of the kit as there may be reviews on the kit maker’s website or on places like TH-cam (This also applies to Level 1). Level 3: building based on plans. Now you are entering the Wild West of DIY as there may not be any review at all or limited reviews at best. Level 4, which you are talking about, is the hardest and the most likely to take years to end up with satisfying sound. I would not recommend Level 4 to anyone to start off. At most, I’d try level 2 or 3. A good place to start would be the ABX open baffles as there is a community building these speakers and people who may be there to help you. There are also people making variations to this speaker which may address your sonic preferences.
Great info sir!! I agree with your breakdown.
@@hificave I have great respect for anyone like you who goes down the DIY “rabbit hole” particularly at Level 4. However, starting off there is like jumping into the deep end of the pool when you don’t know how to swim. There is another consideration which cuts across all these levels, you have to have some idea of what you are looking for. It may change along the way of your journey, but you need a starting point. As part of that, you need to have some knowledge of speaker design.
Let me take part of my own journey as an example. Started with a 2-way passive design using an 8” wide band transducer and a 8” mid/woofer in a sealed box. The design was generally successful (better than I had any right to expect), but clearly limited. The wide band transducer tended to beam at high frequencies, would get congested with music containing a lot of instruments like symphonies and the bass was lacking. None of this could be addressed with mere alterations to this design.
I had heard and liked the Linkwitz Orion. I had actually done an A/B comparison with my speaker and the Orion could simply do things my speaker could not do. So I decided on building an open baffle speaker (OB). First problem: driver selection. Driver specs don’t tell you how a driver sounds and certainly doesn’t tell you what drivers complement each other. In researching drivers, I stumbled across a speaker designer who had tested AND designed speakers using the drivers I was looking at. And he was willing to consult with me on the design.
First design was based on a speaker he had designed which was a TMW using a compression driver in a custom designed horn (to improve the dispersion pattern over my first design), a 10” mid-woofer and a 15” woofer. I changed that to a WMTMW. Reason? This is an OB and a single 15” woofer in an OB that has no cabinet reinforcement for bass might not be enough. I opted to use dual 15” woofers per side and bi-amp because I wanted to be able to push the 15” woofers for max bass extension while having the flexibility to use a low powered amp for the tweeter and mid-woofer. That resulted in a really tall speaker. It also resulted in having a woofer near the ceiling where you really don’t want a woofer to be. So I changed the design to a MTWW. Still tall, but shorter than the first design and both woofers are close to the floor where they should be.
The design is not completed, but this is a rabbit hole and even before you finish, there are ideas about what could be done better. For starters, would a single 18” woofer be better? That would allow something closer to be designer’s original speaker. It would also allow me to physically time align the drivers and possibly skip bi-amping. Because I am bi-amping, I can electronically time align the woofers, but that possibly introduces other problems. How critical is time alignment??? Would it be better to keep the panel straight up and down and do a MTM with the compression driver and mid-woofers to make the sound from the mid-woofers coincident with the compression drivers (D’Appolito configuration) or is placing the mid-woofer as close to the compression driver as possible more than sufficient? Is any of this worth changing my design? The questions never end and the answers only come with trial and error. And this is starting with just modifications to a professionally designed speaker. I personally can’t imagine doing a clean slate design. My hat is off to you and anyone else who does that.
I jumped in at level 3 doing ASR Mechano23's and would recommend 1 or 2 to my former self 😂. I am 5 orders in across 4 websites and 1 month in. It's been frustrating and I wish I had a kit to assemble.
Then again a learned way more. Like round speakers may not have a round frame to flush mount. One letter in a model number spec makes a huge difference. Procurement is difficult
Still waiting to get the completed speaker. Like anyone who goes down this rabbit hole, I think about what I could have done differently. I’ve come to the conclusion that the changes I might have made are relatively minor and would probably have little (if any) impact on the sound quality of the speaker. I have reason to believe this is an “end game” quality speaker. If I am right, my next should not be variations on this speaker. Rather, it should (and will be) a review of the electronic chain.
I retained the 1st order crossover between the tweeter and midrange of the original design. However, I decided to bi-amp the speaker to separately power the woofers. This opens up a range of exploration. The MT section of the speaker is sufficiently efficient that I can use a low powered tube amp or low powered Class A amp without any concern on having the power for the woofers. With a 200 hz crossover to the woofers, a 200-300 wpc Class D amp would be perfect. I’ve never had a speaker designed like this so this is new territory for me.
I could go on, but my point is this. Depending on your speaker, it may make more sense to play with the electronics, room placement, room treatments, adding subs, bass area room correction, upgrading the crossover, etc. There are lots of things that can go “wrong” with a system and the room or speaker placement issues are a common culprit. You may still want to go down the speaker building rabbit hole, but this exercise will give you a much better understanding of the challenges of your room and what impact electronics have on your current rig. IMHO, definitely NOT a waste of time or money. To have any chance of getting a desired result, you have to understand where and how your current rig is failing to meet expectations.
I describe my DIY process as months of research and planning. Minutes of execution. Followed by months of self congratulations.
For me it was a labor of love. But start with simple upgrades to existing equipment to see if it is for you.
Good point about resale value. DIY equipment has no value to anyone else. I suspect the best financial approach is to buy used equipment as you can sell it later.
Good advice, I am a speaker DIY'er, and even thought I have picked up drivers from Definitive Technology, Paradigm, Ariel Acoustics, Klipsch, Energy, Dalquist, Jamo and Nuance I know that the resale is going to suck even if it can be a better sounding knockoff. However I can own all of those brands at the same time for a fraction of the price. It is a hobby though and I enjoy the whole process, and yes when you get it right, it is super satisfying!
Yes! Agreed.
Literally gonna be attending a Linkwitz Demo, have a ESS Heil AMTs working off the top of my Mission 770s running in parallel with just a single resistor to match the levels. Low risk, high rewards!
Well the time I put to DYI is time I'm not spending money, theoretically it's better to spend time this way. Like it is worth more than when I am playing golf or diving as it's negative dollar time.
Like if I just bought expensive speakers, I would have much more time to buy more expensive things 😂
an "investment" of Education is both ex$pen$ive, but at the same time PRICELESS! and the retained knowledge going forward helps in both future DIY AND "off the shelf" gear. also gives real meaning to the term "Bleeding edge"
Very good point.
i enjoy the process of learning and building a little more than listening to the gear.
I destroyed a few sheets of expensive veneers on my first build. Unbacked veneers are tricky.
Pro tip: Spilling some of your blood on your diy gear makes them sound better.
Hahahhaha awesome!
I'm nuts. So, diy all the way!
Love it!
Start easy and play it safe, build a speaker from a diy speaker site, troels gravensen for instance.
Yea! Good avice
My first was before TH-cam existed I was in a vacuum and had to think for myself. This goes a long way use advice as just that keep your desire in mind.
As a hobby, GREAT. If you think you can make a fantastic sounding speaker cheaper than a highly regarded speaker, think again.
diy is fun, take a lot of time. but only passive subwoofers and kit class d power amps are worth it.
If you think about resale, youre in it of the wrong reason, dont look at prices, use your ear. We all have prob lissened to vintage speakers that realy do the thing right(ar18hj), ever tryed to meassure vintage speakers? Today a carpenter and a computer can build you a set of exact copys of almost any hi end speakers who you also can get drivers for, and you can drive it throu dsp, if youre not living in the past😂 diy 4 life🎉
Totally agree. But many new to diy dont realize it.
😂😂😂fuses love it
🤪
DIY try to not D estroy I t Y ourself
You just put a on my face. My first diy was with pawn shop speakers, they ended up Franken-speakers with drivers hanging by wire and screwed to the face. This ended with what I wanted then made a cabinet to suit.