honestly in splatoon 4 i want turbine escort from side order to replace tower control. let the turbine go for longer on a full tank but make enemy ink drain it more, so you can fill it up and then take fights away from it while it rides the track, or try and flank to drain the turbine tank and stop the enemies from scoring
What would you do about enemy backlines just sniping the turbine when defending? I think its a good idea, but there would have to be some changes to make it balanced.
@@tiesvanleeuwen3280 do not think that's an issue. if an enemy backline is shooting the turbine, then 1: you can just shoot it back, but also 2: they're shooting the turbine and not you - use the opportunity to close distance
I think that might work in theory but the problem I see is that I think range would affect how much you could impact objective too much. The maps can't really put the turbine over a gap or too high a ledge or anything because they have to account for "what if you're in soloq and roll a team of 4 splooshes" when that's one of the main things I think that would offer for map design, then I worry how something like Crab could affect the mode too. While maybe not the best strategy, I think something like popping crab at a disadvantage just to stall the turbine while your team regroups feels like it would be something you could do and I don't really like that tbh.
as a casual player it really feels like CB was designed with s2 in mind, and it now fundamentally suffers somewhat from the overall play style change into s3. we don't have armor or bubble blower to protect you on your way to basket, and even brellas felt more prevalent/consistent. yeah cooler is a thing, but that mostly helps after you failed to push and died. that's why i think that changing basket placements can only do so much to prevent the stalling issues without turning into 30sec knockouts. i feel like the mode needs some kind of new mechanic to really get it out of this mess, but i'm not sure what it could be.
For rainmaker the point of picking it up is to put the pushing team at the disadvantage for trying to push cause if the rainmaker was as good as having main weapon then it’s pretty much whoever grabs it first is more likely to win. Like for tc someone having to be on the tower is putting the team pushing at a little disadvantage that’s the whole point
I think a good way to prevent excessive stalling in rm would be to massively shorten the timer, but refresh it if you make progress; this would essentially turn the entire map into a rainmaker-free zone unless you’re actively pushing.
I agree Clams needs to change. One idea I came up with awhile ago and would like to see tried: baskets are always open to clams, but scoring a small clam is only worth 1 point. When you score a big clam, you get the bonus: 20 pts for the big clam and 3 pts for every small clam in the bonus period afterwards. During that bonus period, your own goal would also be shut so the enemy can't score. I think a change like this would make scoring easier and more consistent while still incentivizing teams to win fights and score a big clam.
Clams is the best mode. To watch and play. It has to do with stakes of fights and where they happen. The fights in zones are all over the map and much harder to follow when you watch whereas pushes in Clams also RM are more concentrated.
Every game is cheesable to some extent and especially when you have so many options like Splatoon. With as many weapons as Splatoon has, it’s impossible to balance every cheese strat because when they nerf one it indirectly buffs another. Like in BOTW Gannon is a genuinely challenging fight. In tears of the kingdom, gannondorf can be challenging or you can use rocket shields and bomb flowers to literally melt him in under a minute. There’s just too many options for them to balance everything.
I want to mention that gameplay isn’t the only aspect of this - tourney viewership and getting new players interested in the game are also really important. The other modes give weapon (and arguably a bit of map) variety, and I’ve heard from casual players that the zones timer/penalty/etc are harder to grasp than rainmaker’s capture-the-flag or tower control’s payload. I’ve heard concerns from some players that standardizing zones only may make the game less interesting to watch, and while I don’t agree with that take, it’s something for the community to consider when building tournaments.
I’d really like to see a basic mode editor in the next game. You could tweak basic player traits like respawn timer, swim speed, health, and special gain rate. For specific modes you could also adjust special advantage as well as how fast the tower moves or how many clams you need for a power clam. Something like that would be a big boon to both casual and competitive players. Casuals could setup silly matches with extra health; comp could make little tweaks to improve things without needing to beg Nintendo for changes. Having access to that wouldn’t fix everything mentioned in this video but it’d probably get a lot of it.
I halfway follow comp now in terms of just looking at results, but I find it pretty uninteresting to watch. One mode only with the same backline on every team isn't much fun to watch.
I definitely agree with rainmaker needing to be a super weapon. Because having it as is makes you not want to grab it. And then that can cause problems when nobody wants grab it
Idk if this is just because I play edit but I feel like for the most part the special "cheese" isn't bad at all. Cant remember the last time a special actually solo flipped a zone
If they're going to make changes to the other modes, I hope they make cheese harder. Being unable to throw claims right away after a jump, requiring the enemy team to stand on tower for a few seconds in overtime and maybe making it so ot in rainmaker doesn't end when the carrier dies (timer does not reset when regrabbing it and the game can end if the enemy grabs it). I'm sure there might be flaws with doing stuff like this, but we could use some mode resilience considering the design of certain specials.
While I do think TC/RM/CB could have changes to make them better, I think the main reason why they might feel so much worse to comp players in comparison to SZ is because SZ's pacing is extremely inflated in S3. The objectives in TC/RM/CB set the pace of engagements because the objectives force players together or away from each other. SZ, being the least objective-dependent mode, has the pacing of its engagements determined by how quickly you and your team can get back to mid. S3 stage design is streamlined to get you back to mid ASAP. Tacticooler relieves the penalties of failed engagements and lets you keep your specials to start another engagement. And because you have to focus on the objective of SZ less than any other mode, you're depending more on your mechanical skill. With all of this, SZ becomes the fastest-paced mode with the highest skill expression. There's more "game" per game of SZ for comp players. It makes me wonder how different things could have been if we had S3 weapon and special balancing with S2 stage design.
Also if you’re trying to make the splatoon scene bigger and bring more people in only doing 1 move over and over and over is so boring especially when it’s similar comps every single time. We already don’t have many modes to begin with and sticking to only one in top level isn’t gonna help grow the scene.
Exactly. If anything it will cause the top level scene to shrink because of just how DULL it is to watch a Neo Splash, Ttek, Vslosh, Pencil team vs. another Neo Splash, Ttek, Vslosh, Pencil team. It's like Crab meta all over again but now it's Tristrike/Cooler meta.
@@ProCharaPerhaps it's not accurate from a player perspective but I'm talking about from a *viewer* perspective. Same mode all the time with both teams having one type of "how can we cheese the zone the hardest" comp makes it EXCRUCIATINGLY dull to watch. So that ruins interest in wanting to watch top level play and by extension growing to that skill level of being locked into such a restrictive meta.
@@MrEnzio777 I just disagree with the restrictive comp when more playstyles are winning now then have previously, I also haven't seen any "cheese the zone the hardest" playstyles recently the last month has been a gradual decline of nsplash.
Clams feels unbearably slow to me. To the point I feel like the penalties should be removed and maybe even have the baskets be permanently openned. Almost every game goes into overtime. But I do have to disagree on rainmaker feeling slow. it feels much faster paced than zones to me, maybe it's just the matchmaking being wildly unbalenced in solos for 95% of the games, but it seems fairly rare for RM to reach overtime unless one team is dedicating themselves to stalling out the clock. Especially some of the smaller maps, Mahi in particular is great for farming cash and freshness cause so many games are done in 40 seconds. Which I get is a different complaint many people have, but I love a satisfying rush in with the RM.
Chara’s discussion about modes comes more from a comp perspective is the issue, where rainmaker stalling is way more common and clams doesn’t get many stally games (since you’re already going to have the team coordination that clams needs). Also, neither of those reworks would be good for the mode at all without huge changes to power clams. Removing penalty takes away the main punishment on the winning team and would make comebacks for losing teams way too difficult since the enemy isn’t slowed down by scoring. While an always open basket could be interesting, it also isn’t really a good idea to use this since it just means that the first team to the enemy basket will be able to keep a huge advantage and lead compared to the second team since half the effort required to getting towards knockout is gone without the requirement of getting a power clam to begin scoring.
This video proved that Splatoon 3 is a social experiment that test how much the players can be brainwashed into thinking the maps are good and not problematic
@@ProChara You didn't say that the maps were problematic, even though they are the problem. These bad maps only promotes the worst flaws of each mode. Along the maps, the meta can also negate or exagerate the negatives of each mode (that were brought into them by the maps). Crab meta was about stalling the enemy team and because of that, Zones was the worst mode because there was nothing to do to avoid the stalling. The other modes didn't have that problem, because the goal being in spawn meant that stallers were forced to push into the defender-favored spawn. Cooler meta promotes movement and fast plays. Zones enjoys it the most, since players can just push into the zone and don't have to go to the enemy spawn. Whereas the other modes now suffer from the lack of routes and bad objective placements. Basically, the maps make everything worse and the meta only tweaks the negatives brought by the maps. Saying the modes needs rework while keeping the bad maps is not good. Zones also needs reworks because it only promotes stalling the enemy team out of mid.
@@ProChara Clams doesn't need any changes and Zones isn't flawless either. Zones only leads to stalling the enemy team out of mid and it doesn't have anything to help the defenders out of dissadvantage. The other modes at least put the attackers at dissadvantage to promote counterpaly.
I like the slider into the void at the end lmao
honestly in splatoon 4 i want turbine escort from side order to replace tower control. let the turbine go for longer on a full tank but make enemy ink drain it more, so you can fill it up and then take fights away from it while it rides the track, or try and flank to drain the turbine tank and stop the enemies from scoring
what about a wider turbine? (for cover) i feel like that'd bring some of the "moving around the tower so you dont hit me"
What would you do about enemy backlines just sniping the turbine when defending? I think its a good idea, but there would have to be some changes to make it balanced.
@@tiesvanleeuwen3280 do not think that's an issue. if an enemy backline is shooting the turbine, then 1: you can just shoot it back, but also 2: they're shooting the turbine and not you - use the opportunity to close distance
I think that might work in theory but the problem I see is that I think range would affect how much you could impact objective too much. The maps can't really put the turbine over a gap or too high a ledge or anything because they have to account for "what if you're in soloq and roll a team of 4 splooshes" when that's one of the main things I think that would offer for map design, then I worry how something like Crab could affect the mode too. While maybe not the best strategy, I think something like popping crab at a disadvantage just to stall the turbine while your team regroups feels like it would be something you could do and I don't really like that tbh.
I kinda want to see that 3x 96 gal comp now.
I don't have a vod of it unfortunately, just found out through the leaderboards on the rotation.
as a casual player it really feels like CB was designed with s2 in mind, and it now fundamentally suffers somewhat from the overall play style change into s3. we don't have armor or bubble blower to protect you on your way to basket, and even brellas felt more prevalent/consistent. yeah cooler is a thing, but that mostly helps after you failed to push and died. that's why i think that changing basket placements can only do so much to prevent the stalling issues without turning into 30sec knockouts. i feel like the mode needs some kind of new mechanic to really get it out of this mess, but i'm not sure what it could be.
For rainmaker the point of picking it up is to put the pushing team at the disadvantage for trying to push cause if the rainmaker was as good as having main weapon then it’s pretty much whoever grabs it first is more likely to win. Like for tc someone having to be on the tower is putting the team pushing at a little disadvantage that’s the whole point
Ngl that clams match was really fun to watch
I think a good way to prevent excessive stalling in rm would be to massively shorten the timer, but refresh it if you make progress; this would essentially turn the entire map into a rainmaker-free zone unless you’re actively pushing.
What map ideas make a good rainmaker and tower control map? I know that multiple routes and defensive positions are good but what else?
I feel like they need to incorporate splat 1's risk-reward for TC.
That and just better maps that allows for more fluid movement and better options.
I agree Clams needs to change. One idea I came up with awhile ago and would like to see tried: baskets are always open to clams, but scoring a small clam is only worth 1 point. When you score a big clam, you get the bonus: 20 pts for the big clam and 3 pts for every small clam in the bonus period afterwards. During that bonus period, your own goal would also be shut so the enemy can't score.
I think a change like this would make scoring easier and more consistent while still incentivizing teams to win fights and score a big clam.
Since you seem to play dread wringer alot and you're rlly good at it, you should make a dread wringer guide on your main like the stamper guide
Clams is the best mode. To watch and play. It has to do with stakes of fights and where they happen. The fights in zones are all over the map and much harder to follow when you watch whereas pushes in Clams also RM are more concentrated.
Every game is cheesable to some extent and especially when you have so many options like Splatoon. With as many weapons as Splatoon has, it’s impossible to balance every cheese strat because when they nerf one it indirectly buffs another. Like in BOTW Gannon is a genuinely challenging fight. In tears of the kingdom, gannondorf can be challenging or you can use rocket shields and bomb flowers to literally melt him in under a minute. There’s just too many options for them to balance everything.
i only now noticed, but where did squeezer go since the nerf? does the japanese scene still use it?
the nerf made it not worth the effort to use anymore, even in JPN. The only squeezer players left are the dedicated ones like chocopero
I want to mention that gameplay isn’t the only aspect of this - tourney viewership and getting new players interested in the game are also really important. The other modes give weapon (and arguably a bit of map) variety, and I’ve heard from casual players that the zones timer/penalty/etc are harder to grasp than rainmaker’s capture-the-flag or tower control’s payload. I’ve heard concerns from some players that standardizing zones only may make the game less interesting to watch, and while I don’t agree with that take, it’s something for the community to consider when building tournaments.
I’d really like to see a basic mode editor in the next game. You could tweak basic player traits like respawn timer, swim speed, health, and special gain rate. For specific modes you could also adjust special advantage as well as how fast the tower moves or how many clams you need for a power clam.
Something like that would be a big boon to both casual and competitive players. Casuals could setup silly matches with extra health; comp could make little tweaks to improve things without needing to beg Nintendo for changes. Having access to that wouldn’t fix everything mentioned in this video but it’d probably get a lot of it.
I halfway follow comp now in terms of just looking at results, but I find it pretty uninteresting to watch. One mode only with the same backline on every team isn't much fun to watch.
Literally just 3 Tristrike weapons and a pencil. SNOOZEFEST. 😴 Watching paint dry is more interesting. Zones Only will kill the top level comp scene.
I definitely agree with rainmaker needing to be a super weapon. Because having it as is makes you not want to grab it. And then that can cause problems when nobody wants grab it
remember when we had multiple nSplashes in a comp as a meta because crab was that good and the weapon's kit could do virtually anything?
Idk if this is just because I play edit but I feel like for the most part the special "cheese" isn't bad at all. Cant remember the last time a special actually solo flipped a zone
If they're going to make changes to the other modes, I hope they make cheese harder. Being unable to throw claims right away after a jump, requiring the enemy team to stand on tower for a few seconds in overtime and maybe making it so ot in rainmaker doesn't end when the carrier dies (timer does not reset when regrabbing it and the game can end if the enemy grabs it). I'm sure there might be flaws with doing stuff like this, but we could use some mode resilience considering the design of certain specials.
I never got why your don't drop a Power Clam when you land from a Super Jump tbh, feels like an obvious nerf
1:12 how did you jump without opening map ??
he's in replay mode
Does anyone know where to find the King's cup tournament or other jp tournaments? Like either a livestream, or the comps played.
While I do think TC/RM/CB could have changes to make them better, I think the main reason why they might feel so much worse to comp players in comparison to SZ is because SZ's pacing is extremely inflated in S3. The objectives in TC/RM/CB set the pace of engagements because the objectives force players together or away from each other. SZ, being the least objective-dependent mode, has the pacing of its engagements determined by how quickly you and your team can get back to mid. S3 stage design is streamlined to get you back to mid ASAP. Tacticooler relieves the penalties of failed engagements and lets you keep your specials to start another engagement. And because you have to focus on the objective of SZ less than any other mode, you're depending more on your mechanical skill. With all of this, SZ becomes the fastest-paced mode with the highest skill expression. There's more "game" per game of SZ for comp players.
It makes me wonder how different things could have been if we had S3 weapon and special balancing with S2 stage design.
Agree with the points about tc
Also if you’re trying to make the splatoon scene bigger and bring more people in only doing 1 move over and over and over is so boring especially when it’s similar comps every single time. We already don’t have many modes to begin with and sticking to only one in top level isn’t gonna help grow the scene.
Exactly. If anything it will cause the top level scene to shrink because of just how DULL it is to watch a Neo Splash, Ttek, Vslosh, Pencil team vs. another Neo Splash, Ttek, Vslosh, Pencil team. It's like Crab meta all over again but now it's Tristrike/Cooler meta.
@@MrEnzio777 I did talk about this at the end of the video and why its not accurate.
@@ProCharaPerhaps it's not accurate from a player perspective but I'm talking about from a *viewer* perspective. Same mode all the time with both teams having one type of "how can we cheese the zone the hardest" comp makes it EXCRUCIATINGLY dull to watch. So that ruins interest in wanting to watch top level play and by extension growing to that skill level of being locked into such a restrictive meta.
@@MrEnzio777 I just disagree with the restrictive comp when more playstyles are winning now then have previously, I also haven't seen any "cheese the zone the hardest" playstyles recently the last month has been a gradual decline of nsplash.
They'll take Tower control from my cold dead hands. Splatoon 2 weapon balance worked much better for Rainmaker than S3 though
Clams feels unbearably slow to me. To the point I feel like the penalties should be removed and maybe even have the baskets be permanently openned. Almost every game goes into overtime. But I do have to disagree on rainmaker feeling slow. it feels much faster paced than zones to me, maybe it's just the matchmaking being wildly unbalenced in solos for 95% of the games, but it seems fairly rare for RM to reach overtime unless one team is dedicating themselves to stalling out the clock. Especially some of the smaller maps, Mahi in particular is great for farming cash and freshness cause so many games are done in 40 seconds. Which I get is a different complaint many people have, but I love a satisfying rush in with the RM.
Chara’s discussion about modes comes more from a comp perspective is the issue, where rainmaker stalling is way more common and clams doesn’t get many stally games (since you’re already going to have the team coordination that clams needs).
Also, neither of those reworks would be good for the mode at all without huge changes to power clams. Removing penalty takes away the main punishment on the winning team and would make comebacks for losing teams way too difficult since the enemy isn’t slowed down by scoring. While an always open basket could be interesting, it also isn’t really a good idea to use this since it just means that the first team to the enemy basket will be able to keep a huge advantage and lead compared to the second team since half the effort required to getting towards knockout is gone without the requirement of getting a power clam to begin scoring.
Why was bro on vbrella lol
This video proved that Splatoon 3 is a social experiment that test how much the players can be brainwashed into thinking the maps are good and not problematic
I'm a bit confused here I don't think I'm claiming the maps are good.
@@ProChara You didn't say that the maps were problematic, even though they are the problem.
These bad maps only promotes the worst flaws of each mode.
Along the maps, the meta can also negate or exagerate the negatives of each mode (that were brought into them by the maps).
Crab meta was about stalling the enemy team and because of that, Zones was the worst mode because there was nothing to do to avoid the stalling.
The other modes didn't have that problem, because the goal being in spawn meant that stallers were forced to push into the defender-favored spawn.
Cooler meta promotes movement and fast plays.
Zones enjoys it the most, since players can just push into the zone and don't have to go to the enemy spawn.
Whereas the other modes now suffer from the lack of routes and bad objective placements.
Basically, the maps make everything worse and the meta only tweaks the negatives brought by the maps.
Saying the modes needs rework while keeping the bad maps is not good.
Zones also needs reworks because it only promotes stalling the enemy team out of mid.
@Luxius_8 I am not claiming the maps don't need reworks, I'm saying the modes should also change.
@@ProChara Clams doesn't need any changes and Zones isn't flawless either.
Zones only leads to stalling the enemy team out of mid and it doesn't have anything to help the defenders out of dissadvantage.
The other modes at least put the attackers at dissadvantage to promote counterpaly.
@Luxius_8 I feel like having the strongest passive special charge makes it easier to defend then the tc/cb.