Why I Never Replaced a Joystick in a DualShock 3 Controller
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 2 ส.ค. 2024
- I’m examining an old DualShock 3 controller, searching for the reason these held up so much better than the DualShock 4 or DualSense controllers. And I think the magic is in the joystick modules used in these controllers.
0:00 Intro
0:42 Gamepad Tester Info
2:02 Looking inside
2:24 Joystick voltages
3:38 A look at the Joystick magnetic sensors
5:31 Final Thoughts - วิทยาศาสตร์และเทคโนโลยี
I firmly believe the drift issues with all modern controllers started around 2016 and that it's absolutely, without a doubt intentional. I have PS3 controllers from 2012 that are 100% drift-free and I bought one in 2016 just before they stopped production that began drifting within the first month of use.
You got lucky. 2012 was around the time when the DS3 changed to normal pots rather than these hall effect sticks.
thats a lot of copium. never had a 360 or a n64? both are super prone to drift after many hours of gaming.
@@SterkeYerke5555 Interesting, I must have been very lucky indeed, I was convinced this problem started later than that, but I'm not surprised to hear it was even earlier than I thought. These garbage potentiometers shouldn't even be legal.
@@dylanwillyams bullshit, that isn't what drift is. N64 controller sticks were not prone to drift but to a different kind of mechanical failure completely unrelated to drift. I can't speak about 360 controllers as I never owned a 360, but I've heard from many people that 360 controllers were made extremely durably and some people are still using theirs now. Only complaints I hear about 360 controllers are about the poor D-Pads and the fact that the plastic is very slippery.
@@KissyKaede That could still be true! Even though the hall effect sticks are inherently better than pots, not all pots are necessarily terrible. I've seen two original PS3 controllers with pots, one being a very late model DS3 that was basically brand new - which obviously worked fine - and the other being my 2006 Sixaxis which seems to have been used a lot. The Sixaxis does have a bit of a dead spot when pushing the left stick to the left, but there's absolutely no drift at all. Tbf, even hall effect sticks will wear out mechanically after a lot of use, so I'd say the pots on some PS3 controllers can be fine. They might well've started using pots in 2012/2013, but only started using the terrible ones in 2015/2016. I believe the sticks that were used on late DS3's were identical to the DS4's of the time.
oh, so Sony used hall effect before and switched to whatever crap they use right now and literally made controller a consumable item for no reason but profit? And their new super duper PRO edge model still uses crap, but has easily replaceable stick modules for a pretty penny when it could have been a good hall effect stick in the first place. Create a problem and sell a solution, classic.
I was so pissed off about not being able to use PS3 controllers on PS4, no game even requires the touchpad, light bar or speaker. Same with PS5 and it's even worse dualsense. This sort of peripheral blocking should be illegal, just shows how much our so called "leaders" actually care about the environment with how much e waste they allow companies to create
@@talibong9518 Until Dawn and a few other did, but other than that, yeah. The Console has Controller ID so it would have been able to inform you that its an unsupported controller for that game.
It's not just Sony analog drift is introduce first by Nintendo Switch
@@mightyhadi6132Wrong. The first analog drift was still introduced by Sony on ps vita slim because they aren't using hall effect like vita 1000 anymore
@@eijutretze6463
Probably you are correct, but it's not famous due to very small unit having the defect plus because it's only small units were sold compared to Nintendo Switch unit's. Either way It's not just Sony alone, every industries following suits even valve . It's just a matter of how many percentage of them based on their sales unit's.
I read somewhere that for a while, Sony lost money on their consoles, leaving it to the online store and accessories for profits. Not surprised they decided to go with a new joystick module prone to failure. The old controllers were just too reliable to make money off of. Disappointing.
Its also on the users.
Do you remember many people that were praising the Dual Shock 3 at the time?
I don't. And that is one of the reasons why we don't see magnet based Sticks in first party sticks since then.
@@Stefan_Payne couldn’t disagree more. Not sure how faulty joysticks could be on the users at all. I don’t recall a single instance of consistent mass complaints regarding the joysticks on the DS3 controller, maybe I missed it? But ever since they switched modules to the new potentiometers all i hear about is stick drift. People not praising the DS3 ≠ it’s on the users for the joystick module change, and the only praise for the DS4 and DualSense is the touchpad, the haptic feedback and the triggers. Everyone hates the joystick modules.
Really, just another sign that the ninth generation is a barren wasteland, bereft of a glut of great games at this point in their lives as compared to previous generations, more concerned with milking every last drop of profit from people's passion for gaming rather than delivering quality products on the hardware or software side.
@@Stefan_Paynealways praised DS3 for robustness, mine survived worse things than what I thought was possible. The design was antiquated by then though, same look as DS1, with pressure sensitive face buttons like DS2 (that maybe 2 games ever used) and sixaxis as the only addition
@@Afaik777 Well, if you go back to it, the DUal Shock 1-3 aren't really too bad. You just need to hold them like a SNES/SFC Controller, not like a modern one. The Issue with the DS3 is the Triggers, the curveture is wrong...
So that the Sixaxis was the only addition is false, as the Analogue Triggers were added too, aka more movement for L2/R2...
And, of course, the Analogue Button was replaced with the Playstation Button.
You know what is crazy ? That PS one (or PSX) OG Dual Shock started it all. I have like 29 year old Dual Shock One and it still not just works, but works perfectly. No drift whatsoever. Despite not using hall effect, the joysticks are designed to last forever, as those "calibrate" on the fly. What is funny is that analogue sticks are very flimsy and have very little resistance when you move them (years of usage), but no drift. This controller was build like a tank. Also, since it is wired, it will never have battery problems, and wire itself is long & durable (back then controllers had very long weirs & very solid connector). It outlasted every other controller I had that after like 2 - 5 years started drifting or required battery replacement.
They could have done it 30 years ago, but not today ? Well, hall effect is pretty much same price as regular joystick, and yet non on the major brand (MS, Sony, Nin) use those in their most expensive controllers. I think it is done on purpose, so that we would keep buying new controllers. Kinda sad.
Considering that I've seen consoles be sold under "cost" with games and accessories being used to recoup profit...
makes sense to me. Also, just about everyone will just assume "Oh, you're a gamer. Stop being so rough on your controllers and maybe they'll last".
Sounds kinda like some companies moving to exceedingly 'soft' brake pads on econocars. They don't last as long, brake well during initial use, and are easy to blame on the driver/user when they seemingly 'wear out too fast'. "Don't drive like a maniac, and maybe you won't go through parts so fast"
@@LRK-GTtbf some people do treat controllers badly, like lack of basic cleaning (Cheeto dust fingers) and especially on DualShock 4 biting the sticks. Also the very tyipical get mad and throw at wall
PS/PSOne isn't the same as PSX, PSX is a dvr with a PS2 built in.
Technically Saturn started it.
N64 had sticks in 1996, but within a year those started having issues, Saturn got the 3D pad in 1997 and had Hall Effect sticks, then one month later, the Dualshock came along.
Saturn and SEGA started the good sticks thing, and it basically ended with SEGA too since Dreamcast also has a hall effect stick.
Shame it never got two of them though.
i bet they will make hall effect drift too
These are MR sensors, it's a wheatstone bridge made of MR elements. First sign of this is the four pins, VCC, ground, and the two poles that are matched but opposing in their voltage swing. Two poles into a differential op amp is also the classic resistive bridge sensor. Not to mention lack of noise, unlike what you see with Hall sensors which are noisy and jittery. ALPS did produce these themselves, though I cannot find the patent on this specific module, but it was a custom order by Sony or there was some kind of exclusivity contract.
Now there's further genius of this compared to modern implementations of Hall sticks, and potentially the upcoming TMR stick. The first is how the magnet interacts with the sensor, you have the boundary line resting at a cardinal direction, on top of a coplanar MR bridge, very akin to how rotary (including stick axis) pots have a circular carbon track with a pivoting wiper; this much better approximates a circle than the rotating magnet over a linear Hall sensor like what modern controllers are using, this introduces non-linearity of position and requires processing to fix it, it's a distorted system, and the noise of Hall sensors compounds with this. The next is the physical constraints of the module which is where that potting material plays a part, the stickbox is manufactured with dimensional accuracy of a cube and is soldered in place in a set of holes in a square, the internal gimbal sits within this cube at specific points (and is further aligned via its return to center mechanism) that keeps it square to the stickbox, the magnet sits on the gimbal yoke in a specific orientation and hence the donut shape, this magnet then sits in the spherical/spheroid molding of the epoxy potting ensuring a properly aligned fit due to the convex-concave pairing (similar to how conic surfaces will self-align), the module housing then clips into the stick box at specific locations, and the module itself solders into the same plane as the stickbox; the system is so utterly constrained that there's no concern about alignment issues, unlike newer Hall controllers that can have sensor skewing and magnet alignment issues. This is also why I have low hopes for the newer TMR modules, because they will likely never do what ALPS did, but instead follow their Hall design but with a different sensor type, because redoing the packaging method costs money when most of these controllers are coming from the cheapest source anyways.
Please do a follow-up video, an edit, whatever, and reflect the accurate information. I know in the video you said you didn't definitively say the sensors were Hall, but look at your comment section, how many people are regurgitating what they _thought_ they heard? It should be everyone's due diligence to spread good information, because this is exactly how bad information spreads, the general populace lacks comprehension competency and critical thinking skills, you're not at fault for their spread of bad information but it's also important to put out good information to stop people from being frankly uneducated.
Greatest comment i read in years. Thank you for being smart and not lazy at the same time. I just graduated IT engineering and i started repairing various electronics during the covid lockdown. That included plenty of PS2s, Ps3s, Ps4’s, Xbox 360s and their respective controllers.
I can see your level of knowledge is beyond what you “normally“ find on the internet, in the sense that you have to dig pretty deep to find this kind of detailed answers to simple questions like “why old controllers were more reliable than the new ones ?”.
You should make a youtube channel that goes really in depth about stuff like this.
Thank you for this information! Would you say that these MR sensors shown in the video are better than Hall sensors?
@@apotekarenossnotna8380 In general, yes, they're less jittery and less noisy. Hall sensors, due to material properties, have a quiescent age-related voltage drift, meaning they will eventually be out-of-spec, and mitigation against this can only be taken so far, what starts as a small issue ages into a large issue.
As for sensor design, ALPS is the better design. GuliKit and KSilver are releasing a TMR module but I don't know the circuit design of it, if they're simply just using one resistor and measuring voltage drop, as they look similar to their HE modules; this would be a lesser design due to less redundancy plus there's still the issue of them using a rotary magnet measured with a linear sensor on a perpendicular plane, issues of distortion, etc. The proper way to do things is how ALPS did it in this module, where the magnet and sensor are coplanar, and the sensor is a wheatstone bridge, which not only provides redundancy but better approximates circularity, of which a full-bridge does a better job of this than a half-bridge.
The only issue is, ALPS only produced these for Sony, the production lines (V1, V2, and Vita1000) were shut down afterwards, so finding these at all is rare unless you have access to the specific OEM controllers that use them. We're unlikely to see modules like these again, unless a manufacturer wants to invest into recreating the specific package, which is unlikely mostly due to the magnet used, as it's not just your common square or circle low-strength neo of a standard size, and the effort put into the module casing and implementation. There's some hope, but it'll likely be a DIYable solution such as what Marius Heier (@MariusHeier1 on TH-cam) had done with his own hall stick, just replace the hall ICs with TMR ICs; the only potential here is parts compatibility, such as the stick cap and the controller housing, so until this kind of method can be minimized to where it's a drop-in replacement, I personally wouldn't seek out this solution unless you know what you're getting into.
As far as the intersection of cheap and reliable go, magnetoresistance is the best option, for now at least. There's other potentials that could be developed, but development costs money, and the further you stray from typical design also requires research, which is additional money; for the former, look at implementing analog optical sensors, for the latter look at developing a 2D low-power inductive position sensor that senses accurately on two axes. As for magnetic sensors specifically, tech goes up in cost fairly steeply as far as I recall, not to mention package sizes; there's a reason why Hall sensors are dirt cheap and are capable of being in handheld devices. TMR's main issue in this use case will be susceptibility to external fields, but realistically what magnetic sensor isn't, though shielding on the exposed side may help with this as it has with HE modules, though I've never seen a shielded MR sensor. MR sensors are also quite abundant, usually they're within a potted IC, but they don't get quite as much attention as HE does in any variant, probably because HE is dirt cheap among some other factors like raw sensor availability, i.e. not packaged in a potted IC.
Personally though, I would push manufacturers to seek a different solution based on a new stickbox design. While these work and can be reliable, nobody knows how well they perform in modern games, just look at the FPS genre for example, compare COD BO2 to the latest iteration of the franchise, gameplay is very different. Part of the overall drift issue is mechanical, the centering spring wears out, the centering mechanism wasn't really built for the abuse it modernly sees, hence why there needs to be a more robust stickbox in general. A TMR would work here just fine, but personally I'd push for inductive or optical, inductive position sensing gets rid of the external field susceptibility and would honestly simplify things with a 2D sensor array but at a potential cost of power efficiency, and optical further simplifies things once someone develops a way to package it. TMR may look like the thumbstick endgame, but it absolutely should not be; always advocate for further improvements.
Do you have a Ko-Fi or something?! This is nice :)
@@joshuaPurushothaman_ I've never been asked if I had Ko-Fi, or similar; I've always been suggested that I get into content creation to share this kind of knowledge and if I end up developing anything myself. I went ahead and set one up, it's xaytana just like my user here and linked on my channel page. Thank you for being kind.
yeah, when I tried tweaking anti-deadzone in Steam input for my brother's old DS3 and seen that I could pretty much remove all deadzones and it wouldn't drift, I was like 'how is this even possible for this fossil of a gamepad??'. now I at least understand that the answer is in the special joysticks.
Rather in lack of those in modern gamepads. These joysticks are must-have and should be in any modern gamepad
My PS3 controllers’ thumbsticks went bad years ago. So, while PS3 controllers actually DO have thumbsticks that go bad, it’s interesting to read corner cases.
@@MegaZeta I recently had an old PS3 controller joystick fail, it was a relatively easy replacement. no soldering needed, 6 PH1 screws, and just popping parts out and back in.
This controller was from like 2008 or so, back with the original fat ps3s. Works perfectly now.
steam input is laggy i recommend 3rd party alternatives that emulate an xinput
@@Erksah02 depends on your config, perhaps even gamepad. isn't laggy for me at all.
planned obsolescence is the reason newer models have a ridiculously lifespan.
While some 3rd party controllers has the same ALPS joysticks that are much better for "some" reason...
This explains why my friends keep buying new controllers for their modern consoles while I've been gaming with the same DS3 controller since ...2008 I think. The battery is worn out but the sticks are still good. Works great on PC via USB.
Good thing is it's easy to replace a battery. Just have to learn a little soldering.
@@SilvaDreamsUnfortunately that's what stops most people, myself included (for now. I do want to learn)
@@SilvaDreams you dont have to solder though....
@@VSS63 Exactly. The battery is connected with a plug. You can even see it in the video at 2:26 .
Except the thumbsticks on my PS3 controllers went bad years ago. So, no, all of this is wrong.
In Sony’s eyes, Stick drift is not a bug, it’s a feature to make them more susceptible to more failures
Yeah, my PS3 controllers’ thumbsticks went bad many, many years ago, so this definitely isn’t some universal thing
Not the joysticks but Ps3 controllers had issues with multiple other buttons being pressed when pressing only one button. The problem is a tiny tiny foam height buffer that gets compressed over time and leads the PCB being touched at multiple points. The fix is just adding a bit of height using electric tape. I fixed 2 of my controllers and one of my friend's controller this way.
Huh, I wonder if that's what I'm running into. I have two DS3s that started doing the same thing, when clicking in the left stick for the L3 button, sometimes the D-pad activates the Down or Right directions.
@@dranyth Most likely this issue. If you google something like "PS3 controller multiple buttons press fix" or something like that you'll likely find someone on youtube showing you how to fix it.
The fix is really really easy, just need the screwdriver and some electric tape.
I used cardboard jaja, still holds up.
I fixed mine this way too!
I used paper cut to size though.
It was fine for few years until paper compressed, and then I just added few more layers and it still works!
Another thing that broke was white plastic frame, and because of it, it was nearly impossible to press R2. Used super glue on the frame, and it was better, but still didn't work properly. So I added some duck tape on the button itself, so it presses harder against the rubbery bit on PCB, and it works perfectly.
You are not addressing the real reason why you need more pressure for the controllers to register properly. I've repaired the "crazy controller" syndrome for a hundred or more PS3 controllers at this point. If you look at how the film is held by the two rods that go through it, you will see that it's not possible for them to move enough to touch multiple pads. The thin film the foam is pressing on has a thin layer of a conductive material that contacts pads on the controller's board. That material oxidizes over time and has a hard time conducting. All you need is some Deoxit and a cotton swab. Clean those contacts on the film and board and the rogue button presses will stop. Deoxit provides some protection from oxidation occurring again as well. Both of my own PS3 controllers suffered that problem and have not done so since cleaning. I do not apply more pressure as it's not needed. I'm seeing that on PS4 controllers now and expect to see PS5 controllers doing that too. Given enough time, this will happen to every controller that uses a film compressed against a board.
I didn’t have a single PS3 controller that lasted more than 3 months. I firmly believe that joysticks using potentiometers should be the FTC’s next meal. It’s blatant abuse of the fact that there’s been a distinct lack of consumer protection in the US over the past decades.
It's planned obsolescence, it's intentional and it's legal.
This dude wants Sony to take liability for his lack of care …..pathetic 😂
Welcome to capitalism ...
You're tripping, I have a 10+ years old controller and aside from putting a thicker ribbon inside because of that common issue of pressing buttons by themselves, i have zero problems.
@@bljet4388 can you see my comment?
I have 4 DS3 controllers that are well over 10 years old. All still work flawlessly. They were made before the era of planned obsolescence took hold. That's why they will continue to work for a very long time.
The opposing outputs for each axis provide excellent accuracy. The same idea is used on drive-by-wire systems on modern automobiles. It's critical for something like a throttle position sensor, overkill for a game controller. I'm OK with overkill though.
Thanks for the detailed teardown. Now I know why I've never had to throw away a DS3 controller.
Interesting, because my PS3 controllers’ thumbsticks went bad years ago. So, they definitely CAN drift and go bad.
I have two PS3 controllers (bought very used, so maybe that's why) that are nearly unusable due to how much stick drift they have
-Before the era of planned obsolescence took hold
You mean 60 years ago?
@@MegaZetaAs he mentione in the video, not all DS3 controllers were built the same way. Some of them used this type of sticks, and others used the new ones.
earlier PS3 controllers used Magnet based Sticks. The one you have is one of the earlier ones.
Later revisions, such as the A1, got rid of that and moved to the usual carbon wiper based potentiometers...
Its partly due to what the users said at the time as well as them needing to cut the cost...
The very first Sixaxis controllers still used normal pots, but they changed to these sticks very quickly. I'd say most DS3's have magnet based sticks, as I've got lots of A1's that still have them as well. The only DS3 I've ever come across with normal pots was an A2.
@@SterkeYerke5555 Late A1's do have pots, yeah. It's hit or miss, so it's best to avoid A1 model DS3's.
@@penguinsushi8442 I honestly don't think they're that big of a gamble. Many of the DS3's you'll come across are A1's and most of them are fine. If you're given the choice, sure, take the older models, but even the worst type of A1 is still a lot better than a knockoff. Even if you do get an A1 with pots, chances are they'll still work fine. Some of the older pots aren't nearly as prone to drifting as they are on current controllers.
I've refurbished approx 20 ps3 controllers over the past 2 months. 14 were a1 revisions, 3 of which were potentiometer models. There was no consistency between revisions as to what had pots hall effect.
@@murrayallen3684 how many of those needed the Rubber replaced?
Let me guess: All of them?
The PS Vita 1000 model has hall effect joysticks as well. Before I knew about that, I was wondering why it never drifted after almost 10 years.
the DS3 was the greatest controller of all times. It also had pressure sensitive buttons (L1, R1, X, Square, Triangle and Circle).
On PC you can use it with DsHidMini. It works great still.
The only successor is the RetroFighter's Defender.
ALL of the buttons except the n joystick presses were pressure sensitive. even the hat.
DS3 was nothing compared to the Xbox 360 controller. Comfort is on a whole other level
PS2 had too pressure sensitive buttons like X if you ever used one.
@@XantheFIN yeah the DS3 shares almost everything with the DS2.
@@riverblack123 I prefer actually feeling the controller in my hands and having good access to the dpad, rather than having an ergonomic controller made for relaxation
I've got three DualShock 2 controllers with no stick drift after 20+ years. Sony made some really nice controllers back in the day.
Yeah I'm on the PS3 subreddit community and when buying used DualShock 3 controllers, the main concern is getting a legitimate OEM one as there's lots of fakes out there. With the OEM ones, there's never any worry of stick drift, so much so it's basically a non-issue, same with DS2 and DS1 controllers from previous consoles.
DualShock 4 controllers, on the other hand, are occasionally prone to stick drift but it's not common. DualSense? Stick drift is a regular thing and in some cases on controllers barely used, not that old. This is by design. I'm not saying Mark Cerny himself personally is happy with nor made the decision to use inferior quality parts, but regardless when PS5s are retro consoles in a decade original working controllers are going to be hella expensive because there won't be many of them left.
Luckily, when PS5 is a retro console it will be jailbroke to use PS3 controllers and then all those sixaxis and early DS3s that are sitting in peoples drawers can be used instead.
@@talibong9518 It's jailbroken now with older firmwares.
There already exist several devices that can adapt other controllers including the DualShock 3, albeit with some limitations, namely you can't correctly emulate the touchpad beyond it being used as 2 buttons in a lot of games.
SCUF Reflex controllers can basically do what a DualSense does, except with build quality that's actually, y'know, good if you don't mind paying triple. A good investment if you game a lot on PS5 as it's possible to go through a couple of controllers per year if you do.
Yeah I was lucky to get an OEM controller second hand when I accidentally knocked my 10 year old one off a table.
DS3 has never let me down.
Fascinating research! Thank you so much for this video. And I think I was the guy who asked you about PS3 controllers in a comment few weeks ago ;). Thank you so much for looking into it!!
I'm glad you asked about it. It's a shame they didn't continue to use these joystick modules.
@@metalplasticelectronics354I sure hope Sony and other Gaming come start using Hall Effect Joystick modules in the next generation of video game consoles. I pray Sony uses Hall Effect Joystick modules for the PlayStation 6. 🙏 If not a lot of gamers that are smarter like us will be very upset and very disappointed.
My dude sounds like a young Levar Burton with a southern twang
*Thank you for making this, all my controllers from 2020+ have stick drift (5 controllers) all my controllers before 2019 (3 controllers) have never had stick drift*
I had my PS3 in 2010
I still play it to this day
The original controller works flawlessly, never replaced the battery or the sticks
You’re lucky - my PS3 controllers’ thumbsticks went bad many years ago. Same drift as in other controllers, so definitely POTS.
@@MegaZeta exactly the same experience. About the same longevity as any other controller in my experience, so I've no idea what the uploader is on about, or why the video has so many views.
@@kompassorpigo7600
The controller's drift could easily be recalibrated by rotating the analog sticks. If you never knew about that, I feel bad for you.
@@Adventist1997 "Feel bad for me"? Why are you so triggered? Also, it doesn't just have stick drift. It gets stuck all the time as well.
@@MegaZeta PS1-PS3/Xbox OG-One controllers are known to have a basic physical worn including recentering springs tension, which is totally fine and expectable on a long run and can be easily fixed with deadzones. That's different from crappy potentiometers and drift caused by that in short terms.
Everybody hyped about hall sensors now, sony did that so long time ago. I would never thought that DS3 was hall effect (at least some of them). Great video. I have one with dead battery (no reaction after plug for hours), might be great to revive it.
That's because this is an early model. It wasn't long before Sony realized their mistake. Nobody was buying new controllers so they started using pots.
Makes sense, because my PS3 controllers’ thumbsticks went bad YEARS ago.
How this hasn't been a class action lawsuit is beyond me.
potentiometer work great for the most of gamers. Well the others..
That is because the A2D is 8bit. The newer controllers have more bits. Don't know exactly how much, but the API I use for XInput is 16bit. With an 8bit A2D unless the joystick is off by quite a bit it will return 0 to the software. If it was 16bit it will almost never return a 0 because 16bit has enough granularity to pickup analog noise. The quantization/resolution/precision of 8bit is 1/256 whereas 16bit is 1/65536.
Given that the DS3, DS4 and DualSense analogue sticks are to all intents and purposes functionally identical, what's the advantage of 16-bit polling over 8-bit? I think there's more tangible difference in the feel and shape of the rubber coverings on the sticks between the three different controllers than the way they respond in games.
@@garydiamondguitarist 8bit vs 16bit has nothing to do with polling/sampling. It has to do with precision. For example, the D-pad is 1bit.
@@0x8badbeef Surely if it's to do with precision then it does relate to sampling? Anyway that doesn't answer my question which I'll ask again with more elaboration - if it's functionally identical to the user as in it "feels" the same, and offers no noticeable improvement to the games on a technical level, what's the point of changing from 8-bit to 16-bit if it just introduces another point of failure to the design?
@@garydiamondguitarist has nothing to do with sampling. Many games don't need this precision especially older games that were designed to be used with a D-pad. For the newer games 8bit, because of the smaller hit boxes, the gamer with have to struggle more to land their reticle on the target.
@@0x8badbeef It reads llike what you're saying is the extra bits aren't doing all that much and it only affects games that were programmed for 8-bit sticks, that is if they aren't properly mapped to 16-bit ones.
If the only advantage is advanced decrepitude of the sticks leading to drift, seems like it only really benefits Sony in terms of people buying more controllers.
The worst offenders are the "Pro" controllers that cost twice as much as the standard model but STILL USES crappy potentiometers for the analog sticks!
Perfect 0 every time? Highly doubt that it's mechanical. There's likely a small deadzone built into the controllers software. That's what most hall effect controllers today do as well.
Great video though! That was well ahead of its time!
Yes, I would expect the processor in the controller is filtering out the noise from the magnetic sensors.
my 17 year old sixaxis still worked with no drift, until the battery died. You did a very intersting breakdown, i was always curios on how they worked
Was that the controller that shipped with the PS3? I believe the 2 I looked at were bought a couple of years after the PS3.
the one i had shipped with the ps3, made in march 07'
That's remarkably good battery life though, and the battery is easily replaceable.
If you ever wanna boot up the ps3 again, the battery supposedly is easy to replace~
The wear on your thumbstick though...
I also had a DualShock 3(early model right after SixAxis) and it lasted until the battery died too. I tried to replace the battery but kind of jacked it up in the process, as I suck with this kind of stuff.
DualShock 1 & 2 are tanks too.
Thanks for this video! I also still use DS3 and have been wondering this exact thing. Everyone else complains about having to buy new controllers meanwhile I've gone through only 2 in 18 years.
My launch date DualShock 4 from 2013 still works perfectly and has never had any drift issues. Older controllers were just built better.
Nah, my PS3 controllers’ thumbsticks went bad years ago.
@@MegaZetathey eventually moved on to potentiometers (on PS3 already), only first models have those magnetic joysticks.
@@Exarvi ah, sony, making undocccumented mid-release hardware changes like a mofo.
i do not remember my PS2 controller drifting with probably thousands of hours of use, they failed mechanically from extensive use but they never drifted which says a lot about those too
For all my life since i started playing consoles with joysticks, they never drifted, only "recently" drift started being a main thing with all controllers of every brand suddenly
This video is a good insight on why, they changed it and use potentiometers that are more crappy than ever probably for cost.
I think ps2 also had those, but it recalibrates itself
I have plenty of times.
Some models of the DS3 are even easy to replace because no soldering is required.
I asked myself many times the same question....
Why were the old Controllers so much better and more reliable????
The only defects are dead batteries in the ps3 controllers. Buttons and D-Pads are still fine even after nearly 20 years!
the only problem i ever had with the PS3 controller was the ribbon cable having less pressure and contact due to the cushion aging and taking shape. the fix was to get some electrical tape and do 1 or 2 turns around the cushion to thicken it. (will probably work for another 10 years!)
Same for me, besides physical wear that can't be avoided.
Nintendo got around this on the Gamecube and Wii by just taking whatever it reads on startup as the neutral position. You can see for yourself: hold the joystick in one direction before and while booting up a game, and when you release the stick, the controls act in the opposite direction
that doesn’t solve drift. you can calibrate switch controllers but they’ll still drift. it’s a mechanical failure
@@genderender Drift is by definition the stick thinking it is moving to the side when in neutral position, and these controllers define that neutral position as not moving every time it's connected. Drift happens on new systems when the stick is tilted by default and the system only cares about the original position. If you never disconnect a gamecube controller and never turn it off, yes, it will start drifting, but upon reconnection, the position that the stick is in that causes drift will be reset to be neutral, and thus, not drifting
@@specialopsdave ultimately caused by a hardware issue. the issue with modern sticks is 2 fold: first the resistive material of the potentiometer degrades, second the sticks get loose from lack of potentiometer physical resistance
this wasn’t an issue in the past because they made better sticks but it still happens. my abused gamecube controllers noticeably have a large deadzone that might not lead to drift but sure does make it sloppier. every company getting potentiometer joysticks is buying from the same source, and that source has a horrible mean time before failures
calibration cannot solve this. ask any switch owner who has drifting joycons like myself. all it does is push the problem down the road by a month and give you even less accurate sticks
@@genderender I don't believe that the Switch Joycons calibrate at all, as drift can be apparent upon startup from my personal experience with a Switch. My 12 year old Wii Nunchuck still has no drift and a decent deadzone, despite being used to beat Super Mario Galaxy 2 at least three separate times, beat NSMB Wii about three times, beat Sonic Colors at least 12 times (though it only takes 3 hours of gameplay to complete), alongside use in tons of other games
@@specialopsdave you can literally go into the settings and manually calibrate any capable joystick attached to your switch. it does not fix the issue. i’ve done it before and it drifts very quickly after
the nunchuck used similar joysticks to the gamecube, possibly even the exact same due to underwhelming hardware sales of the gamecube
Sony engineers: "We've made an excellent controller that never breaks"
Sony corpos: "WHAT?! YOU'RE FIRED! Our mantra is not to help the consumer, its to rub our ballz on their face."
It's *sad* that these controllers got discontinued and *maddening* that their successors deliver so much less for a pricetag many times higher.
that's also my experience with ds1 and ds2 controllers, they may have gotten smashed and destroyed in all kind of other ways but I never remember them drifting.
I have an XBox 360 usb controller from 2009 that I've used regularly for 15 years now. Zero analog stick drift. I get so angry thinking about that every time I have to replace a current-gen analog controller after less than a year.
I've repaired hundreds of controllers that use both magnetic and potentiometer based sensors. I have coffee cans full of the joystick modules I have had to unsolder and replace. I really wish everyone would stop making the claim that magnetic sensors will not drift. That is an inaccurate statement. Every controller relies on physical tension to return the sticks to center. While it can take much MUCH longer to drift in most cases, I have fixed plenty of magnetic sensor based controllers that simply would not PHYSICALLY return to center. Remember that these are plastic on plastic parts internally. They wear themselves away, especially when exposed to abrasive things like dirt, dust and dog hair. Yes, animal hair/fur is responsible for a TON of drift/jitter. I'm not exactly sure how so much hair makes it inside of the sensors themselves but I have rescued a boat load of controllers by simply opening the sensors, removing the debris, cleaning with Deoxit and reassembling. As long as the potentiometer material has not worn through and the sticks will physically return to center, the controller is functional again. The other issue not talked about much is the dead zones have gotten so much smaller. Older consoles had gigantic dead zones, so it isn't that PS2 controllers weren't developing drift, it's that the games aren't registering movement until you push the stick much further so it is ignoring a good chunk of the "sloppiness" they are developing. We can all thank the "twitch shooter" gamers for demanding that level of sensitivity from controllers. Sorry for the long post, but the drift issue is just so misunderstood by most people.
so, how many hall effects and sensors? ratio?
@@ramentamago4094 Don't get me wrong, I love the magnetic sensors like everyone else does. I would say at the absolute worst it's a 1 : 50 ratio of magnetic to potentiometer based controllers. The mean time to failure is also typically exponentially longer. So yes, they are far FAR better. For reference, my own Xbox One controller that I replaced the analog modules had to be opened up again after only 20 hours of use to get the ONE lone hair that somehow made it into the sensor and caused drift/jitter. I was like WHAT?! How does this even happen? Yet it does. To many many people. Keep in mind that quantity also plays a part in these numbers. The vast majority of analog controllers ever produced are potentiometer based. As a result, we will naturally see higher numbers of those in need of repair. My issue is in the statements that magnetic sensor based analog modules will never drift. The grease inside will dry out. Hair and fur will get inside them. The plastic where the arm presses the "clicky" button does break. The plastic wears away just like any other stick does. All of these things can and will cause a stick to become lazy or stiff and refuse to center properly. Do I think they are the superior product? Absofreakinlutely! Do I think they are impervious? Obviously not.
My PS1 DualShock and the PS2 DualShock still run flawlessly, the PS1's is about 27 years old... my PS4 and PS5's controllers got problems after 5/6 months, I don't really understand.
Tbh if I could I'd probably use a PS2 controller on my PC. Maybe I should look for an adapter.
PS2 controllers essentially 0 out the potentiometers based on the maximum and minimum values they receive, so every time you move the joystick completely up and completely down the stick will use those two values to set the center back to 0, it works well enough for potentiometers that aren't completely cooked. N64 and Gamecube controllers had similar things set up to handle stick drift as well and they worked to some degree as well. Honestly at this point analog sticks breaking as quick as they do has to be a designed feature given the amount of at worst bandaid solutions that just aren't implemented at all anymore.
money
Go and buy a new one, Simple.
@@Dpax2000300 i'd rather have a controller that lasts easily decades vs a controller that only lasts a few months, if that, at best.
Wao I never ever imagined Sixaxis Dualshock 3 had magnetic joysticks. No wonder I have been using these controller since inception and never had any problems
I did develop drift on my PS3 controller, even though it was an early model DS3.
Drift isn't just the usual 'damage/debris to pot sensor/pads' but also 'centering spring gives up'. In my case, the centering spring, after over a decade of service, just gave out.
Far more common for me, with PS3 controllers (particularly the sixaxis ones), was encountering the spring clip they used to provide resistance on the triggers having popped off the rail. My relatives all had a terror of opening any electronic device ever, so I got recruited to 'fix' controllers when something went wrong. Apparently that little spring-clip liked to jump off the track on the sixaxis controllers, and was a MAJOR pain in the rear to get it back on it's little track properly. Once you got it there , it was back to normal, but it was always difficult to get the controller back together without it coming loose again.
NEVER encountered an issue with OG 360 controllers though. I also had a green with white buttons Rock candy wired 360 controller that lasted over a decade, and only got retired because of the stick spring losing tension, introducing drift. I loved it, but didn't feel like trying to find replacement springs and dealing with it. Kinda wish I had, given how it seems like every non-nintendo first party controller since the xbox one/PS4 came out is utter doodoo for longevity.
Currently using a flydigi for most things, and the only 'issue' I've had with it is the way the springs on the stick sound. Sounds like flicking a door stopper if you let it flick back to center, but apparently that's how it's supposed to work. as it apparently uses a different design for the sticks than is typical of even hall effect. It certainly feels way smoother than it has any right to.
EDIT: What I'd really like to see in a new controller, is to see someone take a stab at a modernized N64 controller. The only 'fail' I ever encountered in OEM N64 controllers was the usage of plastic for both the shaft and bowl of the insides of their optical switch, and the occasional one that had issues with the expansion slot, which as far as I can tell comes down to people not releasing the tab properly when pulling accessories out, or just using iffy third party accessories in it in general.
Thank you for this video, please keep uploading, we are defo not running out of broken controllers with current market 😂
Will do!
the other reason why therr is no stickdrift, is because of the differential output, instad if taking a measurement of the voltage of the sensor it measured the diffeence in output of the sensors, i'd assume using an operational amplifier to get a +-60mv signal to measure from, maybe it gets amplified as well, you should have put your multimeter between the output pins to get a +-60mv perfectly centred around 0 volts
*Some* Dualshock 3's have the hall sticks. There was a hardware revision at one point to replace it with a potentiometer, as part of the various cost-cutting measures taken with the PS3 as a whole.
That being said, I can think of several older controllers of mine with no drift, compared to modern designs which seem to be abnormally susceptible to drift issues. I'd be interested in a deep dive as to why some things drift heavily whereas things like say, a gamecube controller, don't seem to have issues with high noise or jitter after aging.
My Dualshock 2 sticks from 2012, that I absolutely *ABUSED* as a kid (DBZ Budokai Tenkaichi 3), had perfect stick calibration till the day they stopped working in 2021 (dropped in a bathtub). My 2018 dualshock 4's that I also abused a lot (F1 2013 and F1 2018) perfectly work fine till date. My 2022 Dualsense got stick drift yesterday. What was I playing on them? Minecraft. Emailed Sony, they told me that it's a dust problem. But here's the thing. It was kept in a perfectly clean space. My dualshock 4's were left caked in dust for months, to the point they were greyish white all over. I dusted it off, worked perfectly fine. That stick drift on the Dualsense was absolutely planned obsolecense imo.
Even the DualShock 4 is kinda nice. It has a self calibration system/procedure, which other brand’s controllers don’t have.
I love your videos. I find them quite interesting. I dropped you a comment on your other video talking about how I bought the ginful v5 hall sensors and they were incredible.
Glad you like them!
@@metalplasticelectronics354 I was worried the delay would be a deal breaker but after thoroughly testing them in game I can confidently say I could never have spotted the difference between these and potentiometers. So I did the only reasonable thing to do. I went on offer up and bought 2 more controllers with really bad stick drift for $20 and fixed them up today. Was getting about 1.8% error and no discernible delay. Now they’re better than new.
I really hate how companies justify hardware downgrades for what is probably only a few cents saved per controller vs the retail cost they sell them at.
Joycons are still using the same tiny buttons used on the Nintendo DS triggers which wear out after 5-7 years, yet my DS soft button pads are still fully functional after 15 years of use. I already had to replace both my joycon sticks after only 2 years of light use and the buttons need to really be clicked hard before it registers a press.
Also have a few DS3 controllers lying around that I use with an HTPC for media and emulator games because as you said the sticks works perfectly fine. The battery charge has noticeably dropped, but all three connect on bluetooth just fine.
The Dreamcast actually also had Hall Effect sensors. Curious that Sony implemented this for the PS3 controllers, I was under the impression that they actually did wear out, and even used the same potentiometers as the Xbox 360 ones. There was a mention about cost cutting in later revisions, so it seems everybody who got an early model got lucky.
Found a still decently working ps3 controller of the same shade of blue as the thumbnail... about a few months ago. Works great. Got it to replace my old one I lost and can't find anymore between moves from place to place.
Now I can play Crash Bandicoot as Naughty dog intended.
Thank you for showing
I have an old dualshock 3 that i got with my ps3 slim. It has been more than a decade and only one of the sticks moves very very slightly in the gamepad tester. Nothing that is felt in games. Absolutely beautiful controllers.
I still have my DualShock 3 controller that came with my console (CECHE01 MG), but it's the version that had the two plastic spacers between the L/R 1&2 buttons and a plastic battery tray held between two plastic clips mounted into the board. I find it interesting that Sony revised the controllers several times from using two solid pieces for the controller housing, a battery such as the one in the video with built in mounting clips, to how the flexible PCB uses the pressure from the casing once closed to press against the contacts on the main board instead of using two screws to hold it down. About the only thing that didn't change were the analog components used. It's no wonder my controller still works after 16 years minus a battery replacement and replacement thumbsticks.
The controller that came with my slim in 2010 ended up with the left joystick staying up instead of returning to center after a few years of hard use, but the replacement I got had way more years of use daily on PS3 is still perfect to this day using it on PC regularly with DS4Windows
1:49 It is in fact exactly what the games are expecting. The Dualshock 2 uses this same joystick design, so often times if I'm using a Dualshock 4 or Dualsense on PS2 via an adapter I don't get the full range of motion in some games. Other games (and the PCSX2 emulator) compensate for it by having larger deadzones, but at the end of the day this stick design is the intended medium of input.
I've replaced joysticks but only because I accidentally left the controller out in the sun, which the rubber can't withstand and it gets irrevocably sticky and gluey. No matter how much you wipe, wash or rub, once the rubber has started bleeding, it will never be the same again. Never leave your controllers where the sun can reach them at any time of the day.
Wow this is really something else, never knew PS3 analog was this good 😮
Interesting, I had a lot of issues with the early Sixaxis (DS3 without rumble) sticks breaking, but they broke in a mechanical way; springs lost tension and you were able to spin them around their axis. But indeed, I don't think I've ever had any issues with drift.
Dualshock 3s on the other hand, I don't think I've had mechanical failures on.
The PS4 launch controllers on the other hand... Terrible quality. The rubber on the sticks came of real quick and 2/2 right thumbsticks became unusable after a year or two.
(all anecdotal ofc)
Love your vids, just subscribed.
Awesome, thank you!
They are certainly nice right up until you want to replace the 4 pin ones… found out the hard way that you can’t buy replacements. Also, the 4pin ones arnt just a Sony thing like I thought, found a couple in generic controllers the other day. Neat!
It's planned obscolescence. DS2 are so good quality. I still use one daily and it's brilliant. I refuse to believe the technology to make good analogs has been lost to time. They do it on purpose to sell more overpriced controllers. Let's be honest, most people would rather just order a new controller with home delivery than bother RMA'ing their old one. Sony knows this and they make those controllers low quality on purpose.
Funny you mention the DS2, because even though those had mechanical potentiometers, they used a system where if you spin the analog sticks after turning on the console, it'd soft calibrate to make up for the mechanical drift, which is why they also almost never drift. It's the only controller with mechanical potentiometers I'm aware of that does that, which is a shame because it shows even non-hall sensor analog controllers can avoid drift (at least until the parts physically wear off entirely) if the manufacturers wanted.
I've not been as lucky with my DS3 controllers, but all mine are secondhand. The first one you could actually feel the joystick felt loose.
I love the DualShock 3. I made it it work with my computer and abandoned my Chinese joystick.
It is quality, good plastic, good button clicking, good vibration, grips good, and just works
My ps2 controllers have tens of thousands of hours of use and have never had any issues besides maybe a bad wire, bad thumb grips and sticky buttons. The good old days controllers were bullet proof.
On a related note, the first vita model (OLED) had hall effect sticks as well. Sony switched to the same old resistive sticks on the slim model.
The random/crazy button inputs happen because of a ribbon cable loosing contact over the years. There’s this foam inside the controller that gets flatter over time somehow. Putting a piece of paper on the grill the foam is laying on will fix the issue!
They used 3 pins from PP1.2 up to PP4.0 11. The stick controls were implemented by Texas Instruments but then Toshiba came along with a new design as far as I remember.
The original Sixaxis controllers use standard 3-pin joysticks. Got one on my desk right now with a stick that won't center. Tried to avoid all that desoldering by just replacing the springs, but to no avail. Time to order a new joystick module for it.
I have two 12 year old Dualshock 3's and they still work perfectly fine, I still use them to play controller-optimized games on my PC.
the sega saturn analog controller and the dream pad used quite uniquely constructed hall effect sticks as well.
My xbox series controller right stick failed 7-8 months right after the guarantee ended and no amount of cleaning would fix it.
I had some old crusty sticky xbox 360 controllers that were given to me.
I cleaned and lubed, ordered a new shell and a generic wireless receiver for my pc and it works flawlessly better than my series controller with bluetooth 5.0 dongle.
They are less ergonomic and the dpad sucks but it works like new.
My Dualshocks may not have their sticks replaced, but MAN are they possessed or something; cleaned them multiple times, and the XMB goes WILD!
That's because the flex board doesn't make proper contact with the PCB
Yep. If you've got some foam or gel tape you can try and use that to help give it extra pressure. In a pinch a tiny bit of folded paper or tissue can do it too.
@@MCrex007 So like put them under the buttons, right?
@@TussalDragon344 No, the flexible thing all the button traces are on has a section that bends over and contacts the hard PCB of the controller, putting something behind the flexible bit where it contacts the PCB of the controller so it presses harder should solve it.
@@MCrex007 I'll try small folded pieces of paper and see if they end up being exorcised, thanks!
My issue with my newer controller isn't wear over time, but that it's off-center out of the box. It's precise, there is no dead zone, but being off-center causes drift *and* limits the maximum range, but usually in one direction.
Do note that the accuracy and precision with still wel functioning ps5 controllers is the best i've ever seen. Do not condone its fast wear but just something to be conscious about for certain games.
Interesting look inside. My 2 Sixaxis controllers left sticks drift. Don't own the older Dualshock 2s but for the past few years my PS2 ones are fine. My Dualshock 3 died years ago so I don't remember what that's like. My PS3 has a dead or less functional wifi chip so has to test on another PS3 or my PS Vita TV to check and the Sixaxis battery still work. Confused me.
The third party ones found these days are very awkward to press down sticks to sprint on some angles or other press down functions.
Not that aware of which are hall effect or not as not opened them. But Sixaxis and Vita Slim drift of course. Switch took a bit.
Xbox only had battery issues on 360. PSP is ok but as with anything used battery bulge on one, the other fine and drains I assume more than a 1000 would usually but got a 2000 just for the TV cables or to own a 2000/another system just encase.
Is unfortunate when companies go cheaper with some parts. I don't expect things to work forever, fine with some buttons being stuck or things, easy to pop or leave but the sticks it can be annoying.
Let alone motion or other things that can go either way of use cases over time.
These Hall effect sticks were only in the early first batch of controllers that were released. The rest after them have regular potentiometers these control are pretty hard to find.
I never had stick related issues on my dualshock 3 and dualshock 2 controllers. Ive had buttons get mushy and the triggers be a bit less responsive over time but these were the best.
This is surprising.
I've only heard the dreamcast controller being highlighted as the last hall effect using controller until recent years.
Still using DualShock 3 that came with original PS3 from 2007. No drift and is always centered. Also my even older PS1 controllers also work alright.
the foam pad backing the contact ribbon on sixaxis and ds3 would wear down and create phantom inputs when gripped. people that never grip hard might not have experienced the issue but I had to fix several. fix is just some tape though lol & they might have improved it in a ds3 revision at some point as well
I read somewhere like 5 years ago that the ps2 had software which actively corrected for stick drift. The more you use it the more it corrected it. Reset everytime you restart the console.
I will continue the video later, but can anyone tell me if it's possible to differentiate these models of the other lot?
Nie jestem zaskoczony 🙂 kiedyś urządzenia były projektowane nie przez księgowych a dziś budżet musi się spinać, kasa musi się zgadzać
Even the potentiometer joystick controllers lasted for a long time as my cousins ps 3 controller which was heavily used for racing games just started to drift after like 12 years
There are different versions. Tge problem with some ps3 is when they changed to ribbon connector. Inhad to put something to put pressure on it to make it so it worked right.
Both of my DS3's drifted on either stick. I think one was left, one was right. Some plastic also snapped off the frame on the 2nd one. Maybe I just got unlucky!
No, it's a thing
Can confirm. Dead battery. But never any stick drift. The only problem ever, have been a worn out trigger button, that started giving input even though it wasn't being used.
Still use my PS2 controller for games on my PC, with an adapter. Every once in a while it'll have a tiny drift, but if I just wiggle the stick for a second or two it'll reset itself.
I have an older xbox one controller with no drift except one stick, sometimes... but thats because the controller has been violently abused before, so the right stick has some sort of debree in their, sometimes causing it mess with the stick in some way.
there are definitely PS3 controllers that could use a stick replacement. mine was used for competitive rocket league for years and is as loose as a well used N64 controller. i don't actually like this controller, otherwise i would've fixed the sticks years ago.
8th gen consoles are when drift really became an issue.
I still use my Xbox 360 controller that has probably around 17-18 years. Almost 500h in the new Forza Motorsport and I have no issue winning most races. It's definitely not as precise as when it was new but still doesn't need to be replaced.
I have controllers from 2009 and there is a little bit of drifting. But at that age and with that much use, it is expected.
Love my dualshock 3, super reliable and long lasting battery.
I have some PS3 controllers from when the console first released, and they have no drift at all. Mind you me and my dad were the main users, and we both have some anger problems so those controllers have been abused to put it lightly. While the buttons randomly activate while not being used due to the damage, the joysticks are completely accurate. 0 drift, no random inputs, and always return to (0, 0). I got a switch about a year ago, and both joycons are basically unusable, despite the fact I almost never actually played on the switch at all.
You're lucky, I think I had to buy dualshock 3 controllers every single year, whereas I only had one dualshock 4 and it still is in very good shape
I never had to replace the joysticks in a 360 controller either, But Xbox One and newer it seems like every third controller needs its joysticks replaced.
Never had a dualshock4 but all 3 of my dualsenses are gen1 units and work perfectly, little play in the sticks, but doesn't impact usage. All 3 are over 3 years old and seem like they will last longer.