@@MrGoesBoom ok this is a fantasy game but the concept of my comparison is more or less the same, you are basically saying just like Arthas that all ill people who could spread a deadly disease that cannot be cured should be executed immediately? If you truly think so, that's very rough dude. And anyway I think even if the whole Stratholme had turned into an undead city, a truly united Alliance (all human kingdoms+the Dwarves + the High Elves just like during the Second War) should have still been able to defeat the Scourge in Lordaeron. This, again, if the Alliance had been truly united like they were in the Second War against the Old Horde. Maybe the whole Alliance could have defeated the Scourge in Northrend too considering even the small Alliance expedition of Arthas did quite a lot of damage to the Undead in Northrend before Arthas picked up Frostmourne anyway.
@Vados I think MrGoesBoom has a point, however. You're talking about a population dying of sickness. He's referring to a population that's being weaponized - and loses the ability for rational thought at the same time. In the end, they will all have to be killed anyway, whether through violence immediately, or years of trying to starve them out, with the odd group of adventurers waltzing through for some casual killing.
"Glad you could make it, Arthas." "Watch your tone with me, Arthas. You may be Arthas, but I'm still your superior as an Arthas." "As if I could forget. Listen, Arthas. There is something about the Arthas you should know. Oh, no. We're too late. These Arthases have all been infected. They may look fine now, but it's only a matter of time before they turn... into the Arthas." "What?!" "This entire Arthas must be purged." "How can you even consider Arthas? There is got to be some other Arthas!" "Damn it, Arthas. As your future Arthas, I order you to purge this Arthas!" "You are not my Arthas yet, Arthas! Nor would I obey that Arthas even if you were Arthas!" "Then I must consider this... an act... of ARTHAS!" "Arthas?! Have you lost your mind, Arthas?" "Have I? Lord Arthas, by my right of succession and the sovereignty of my Arthas, I hereby relieve you of your Arthas and suspend your Arthases from service!" "Arthas, you can't just-" "It's done! Those of you with the will to save this Arthas, follow me. The rest of you, get out of my sight." "You just crossed a terrible threshold, Arthas." "Arthas?" "I'm sorry, Arthas. I can't watch you do Arthas."
Arthas was right when it came to the Purge, up until he burned the Ships in Northrend and he was more fueled by hatred then anything is when he went downhill.
One thing does bugger me. Uther abandoned people of stratholm. After a token resistance he just left innocent to fend them selves. It is hard to think that this is a champion of light...
yeah it was always a bit weird ... not only how the story turns so dark in a few minutes, but also how all the "heroes" just left the place ... like ... they just put the blame on Arthas and good. No let's do this together so we can keep you in check. No let's all do our own thing and see how it goes. Just your idea sucks and because nobody has a better we don't care. So much for "you're not my king yet ... boi" *waltzes out of the way after being dismissed*
Fighting Arthas would be his only other option and besides the fact that could get Arthas killed and would weaken the alliance forces during an undead breakout. Also Arthas is the prince and if the Prince of a absolute monarchy told you to do something and you refused, you position would be tenuous at best. The fact that Uther was a well respected paladin was the only reason Arthas could not just imprison him.
@@alect525 I'm a few years too late, but I think people expected was for Uther to be a bit more like Tirion while defending Eitrigg. The dude sacrifice everything he could to stick to his conviction, Uther, on the other hand, was like "meh, I tried"
Was Arthas emotionally compromised and made the call on impulses? Yes. But is it still the right call? Also yes. Let say he decided to go for the conservative option and just quarantine the city as what government in zombie film tend to do. Then what? We already know the citizens *did in fact* consumed the plague grains, and that Mal'Ganis' forces *are* in the city. The moment they turn, the undead horde would overwhelm the quarantine and swept over the land like an avalanche. The whole point of building an undead army is to achieve critical mass after all. And how do we counter it? *By not letting them reach critical mass.* Ergo the burning. There are no reason to believe help could arrive in time to prevent it, no reason to believe the mages could invent the anti-Undead Barrier in time, especially when Mal'Ganis himself is personally speeding up the process. As for the morality of it: Yes, you are murdering innocents. Yes, there is a chance some of them are not infected. Should we save the few and risk killing the many? We also know that these aren't just your average mindless zombie in movies, these Undead's souls still trapped in them, bound to forever serve the Lich King. If it was me being in that situation, i would consider death by my allies to be a mercy. Being a ruler mean you have to make choices, not just right ones, but hard ones as well. And sometimes all available choices are equally shitty, so you just gotta make do with what you have. 11/10 would Purge again.
@Shinigami Sama actually, now that you mentioned it, Antonidas and the Kirin Tor mages already knew a protective spell that could work as anti-Undead barrier, killing all Undead under it, as they did that when Arthas and the Scourge attacked Dalaran later. Time was not a problem as Jaina could teleport in Dalaran immediately and warn them about the Scourge in Stratholme, also Quel'thalas is near that city so the Elven magi could have helped the Humans too. So yeah, purging Stratholme was the fastest option but definitely there were additional solutions that could have spared at least some people. The problem is that Arthas was a Human who like Garrosh acted on impulses without thinking about his own actions and consequences most of the time, just looking at results and thinking his own opinion was the best one. Which is the reason Garrosh failed just like Arthas ultimately.
@@vados8500 A few major flaws with that view are: 1. That assumes anybody told Arthas. 2. Considering how many mages were needed, and how it took so long to kill a ghoul, the entire city would probably fall anyway. 3. Even if it did work, you don't have enough archmages to do this everywhere.
@@vados8500 As I said, there are no guarantees the mages of Kirin Tor could help in time. In many occasion they are rather selfish and independent, thinking first for themselves. During the event, *literally no one* step up to Arthas and tell him of a better idea. Even Jaina, the only person Arthas would trust and agree to at that point, just whine and leave him. Now assuming we can set that barrier up, following WC3 they would need several Arch Mages setting up at different areas to power a magic generator. Once they die, that sector is dead. And you know Mal'Ganis ain't just gonna sit there and let them set up, let alone keep it running. Also, the barrier *slowly kill all Undead,* which mean any infected still going to die, only slower and with magic instead of a clean kill.
To be fair from the opening cinematic of the human campaign it's clear that the Kirin Tor already had it's eyes on the whole topic and even specifically mentioned they would put every city under quarantine ... (always remember it backwards :/ man I really don't like the kirin tor it seems) ... but the King dismissed this as long as there was no prove ... which is own son would provide now. They probably would have acted, but it can be assumed that it wouldn't be as quick as it should have been (even with mass teleportation). The "morally good" option probably would be to send Jaina to the Kirin Tor and some squire and scouts to bring as much soldiers and paladins they could find, quarantine the city, separate the already sick from the still healthy, try to fend off the undead under Morganis, try to fend of the rising undead in their midst, try to hold out until reinforcements of any sorts arrive and then try to clear out the place as best as they could. But this leaves a lot of "try"s and "could"s and would be a huge gamble ... funny enough with Uther just leaving the place and taking most of the paladins with him, it's leaves Arthas with even less choice to make sure his now smaller troop won't be overrun.
I would basically agree. And I think that by their actions, Jaina and Uther prove that there really was no better alternative. After all, all they did was just stand aside, let all of it transpire, and then they came back and Uther got all self-righteous about it again. I mean, what were those two doing in the meantime? Standing in the corner covering their eyes? Was it really the morally better alternative? Shouldn't that cause them DOUBLE guilty conscience? Either inaction in terms of Stratholme citizens causing people to turn undead, or inaction in terms of Arthas causing what they spoke against? I think it's entirely possible that they secretly hoped Arthas would dirty his hands so they wouldn't have to. Because apparently they didn't want to do anything. This was super shitty situation. I don't think there was equally shitty situation in Warcraft universe ever since. Can't think of any other similar situation in all of fiction right now that is as horrifying as this. But regardless if it was the best call what to do at that moment, it pushed Arthas over the edge and all of his subsequent decisions he did after that were most of the time uncalled for.
With what he did, he prevented the spread of the plague although for not long. I believe what in lore that he did wasn't wrong, but was certainly necessary and ruthless.
@Reee Monro But becoming the Lich king was important to other characters falling as well such as Illadin. He became a true demon hunter when he consumed the skull of guldan which happens because of nerzul/arthas
@@Caedus696 Quarantine was impossible for a city of that size with the limited resources Arthas had at hand. And I noticed neither Uther nor Jaina offered that. They just walked away. That tells me they knew there weren't any other options at the time, but were too cowardly to do what was needed.
@@Caedus696 With the limited troops Arthas had? He would have to split his forces into a section that would enforce the quarentine, and a portion to fight Mal ganis
Wow Wyndell, you can hear! I'm so happy for you! I really don't get these types of comments, just quoting a line from the video itself with no further meaning..
@Whiterose Petal Tale she literally enslaves the dead and massacres cities full of innocents. Why is it people can't think rationally if it's fiction? She is quiet literally evil
I remember being a kid and watching ny brothers play through the W3 campaign, I loved the story and the "Captain" unit and I still remember feeling uncomfortable when I saw what Arthas turned into. Nowadays I understand more about him and his decision, One of the best characters
The arthas arc was worth of the best film. The fucking guy went into a self-destructive spiral that turnt him into a death paladin and then death personified
In terms of the game theres also other factors. 1: Everyone infected turn in the span of a day after arthas arrives. So no calling for aid, before you got an entire city full of undead and dead(all the infected would kill the uninfected). In which you would lose lots of soldiers. 2: Malganis is there too, with his own army of undead and rallying all those who turned. So you arent able to calmly think it through, as the city is already under attack. 3: no authority knows about the plague. Arthas and Jaina was sent out to investigate some strange sickness in some distant towns, the undead hadnt arrived yet.
It upsets me because they BOTH left arthas there to do this. As a father figure and higher paladin uther should have done more. Its just like what thrall did to garrosh. He wasnt in the state to do what had to be done yet they left the student to fend for themselves and thus they are the reason that it happened. Not arthas
Uther's and Jaina's suggestion was to let half of them die and raise as undead, kill their surviving family members and then sacrifice soldiers to kill them in open battle under the command of a Dreadlord IF they could even win such a fight. It wasn't Frostmourne that corrupted Arthas, it was Uther actually proving how shallow "the light" was.
Now that's unfair to Uther seeing as how Arthas suspended him and his paladins so he didn't leave as much as was forced to leave. He could have just gone rogue and stayed anyway but that would have probably made Arthas even more angry.
@@alect525 If Arthas was wrong he should had fought against Arthas, if Arhtas was right he should had helped him. He choose option no3, stay clean and act judgmental.
One of the oldest examples of a DM forcing their paladin to fall with an impossible choice. Killing a town by his own hand, or killing his kingdom by inaction. And even the compromise, careful screening and checks, would no doubt take so much time that Mal'ganis could simply do it all again somewhere else. It's hard not to feel sympathy for Arthas in this, because *this* of all things should not have been the choice that sealed his fate. It wouldn't have had to been, I imagine, if he'd better companions to keep his path true...
@Aerial Rave Damned if you do, damned if you don’t. You no less become the villain and must be punished for it. Fall upon your sword or see it pointed at you.
@Whiterose Petal Tale The Kingdom fell anyway, and Arthas just played to Ner'zhul's tune. Stratholme's people weren't spared from Undeath and many still were risen as Undead.
@Whiterose Petal Tale It's not poetic. It just means that he was driven by selfish, self-centered and victimized reasons. He was abandoned by those around him because he was going down a dark path. The one mistake Uther made as Arthas' superior was to not stop him that day. We don't know what would've happened if Stratholme hadn't been purged because we never experienced a timeline where that happened. People assume it was the right decision because they take Arthas' judgement of there being no other choices as fact.
@Whiterose Petal Tale No, nobody said they had to "wait and see", there's intermediate quarantine options before making the "literally kill every last person" decision. Arthas didn't *know* the scope of the infection when he decided to just raze the city. The players might've known, but he went on very little evidence and decided there was no salvation for them. Razing a city even if they were still going to die is still genocide.
i thank that Arthas made the right choive in purgeing the city but after that he shod have gone home and told his father what had happend not go to northrend
What other choice did Arthas really have? If he had left Stratholme alone, the scourge would have amassed a great army there and have spread outward, slaughtering those in their path and raising even more undead. What he did wasn’t pretty nor easy, but it had to be done to protect everyone outside of Stratholme. There simply wasn’t an alternative.
@Venser's Prodigy There was no “good” choice. Just easy and hard. Easy is killing everyone, hard way would have been quarantine and looking for a cure. Then Arthas didn’t make it about duty, he made it about himself and vengeance. Got even more of his people killed alone and freezing at the roof of the world.
@Thelondonbadger listen to that last part again; “Anyone who didn’t get the infected grain, would end up being killed and raised as undead anyways.” That’s the problem. All the people Arthas didn’t even try to save, still died and became undead. Sooner and later, the scourge raised them as undead anyways. The only thing he could have done to limit it would have been to evacuate and screen as many living people as possible... aka the hard way. I’m not saying killing all the people of Strathome was easy, but it was easier then finding another way...
Arthas is Azeroth's first "morally grey" character. Well, maybe not the first, but the first most famous (infamous?) that pops up in most peoples' mind. As deeply seeded as our Azrothian lore is with "grey" characters, Arthas is very well near the top.
Arthas did nothing wrong. He sacrificed himself to the darkness to save his people, maybe if Jaina stood by his side at that time the story would end in a different way.
@Harvey Dustin , your idea on how Arthis could have handled the situation sounds better then the choice he chose..........I agree he acted to quickly and out of anger. wanting to purge Strathholme and suspending the Paladins because they didn't agree with him was fool hardy. he wasn't thinking clearly.
Arthas did the right thing. It was brutal, and harsh. But it was the right thing. If I was one of the people who ate the tainted grain, I would have knelt before Arthas and begged him to bash in my head before I turned. Its simple as that. Stratholme was a horrible horrible tragedy, but Arthas' actions were the best ones possible. Uther was high minded, yes, but he didn't have a way to cure the people or protect them. And while yes, if he just let them all turn and THEN kill them, it would have been more morally justified in the eyes of some. But if he did that, how many innocents would suffer as those who DIDN'T eat the grain got torn apart by those who did? Zombie apocalypse logic problems are a nasty business.
@NegaDruid It's highly doubtful the entire city had been munching on the latest shipment, and either way you're reasoning is kind of like saying "dropping nukes in Japan was brutal and harsh, but it was the right thing". It's never going to be the right thing, even in understandable circumstances.
@@zerefsunlimitedshipworks - When they've retreated, are on the defensive and vastly outmatched? Probably with a blockade. Or focused strikes against military leadership. Or if you're feeling adventurous, a fringe invasion to prove how powerless they really are at the time. Then, there's the question of whether they need to surrender at all at that particular moment considering they're already beaten, meaning USA retreating from Japan would immediately end the bloodshed. Peace talks could come later. USA nuked the civilian population of Japan because they would rather sacrifice scores of Japanese civilians than some US military in order to force a surrender. I don't know what weird things you've been taught or read to even say something like that, but for the record it was really stupid. That was like "why should we help Japan's relief efforts after a huge earthquake when they bombed Pearl Harbor 70 years ago?" level of stupid.
The Eastern Kingdoms were doomed. Medivh was trying to get them to see that. Arthas made the call to purge the city out of desperation more then anything else. If Jaina and Arthas has listened to Medihv and worked together to evacuate as many people as possible the events would have played out as we saw them, but with a united people returning to retake Lordaeron with the help of the high elves and even Stormwind. Was Arthas right? No. Was he stubborn and desperate? Yes. Good job Nobbel, now I want to reread the Arthas novel and my desire to play Reforged in even greater!
Arthas was absolutely right, he didn't know whether the eastern kingdoms were doomed, he was operating under the impression this was something that could be contained, could he have been better with communication? Sure, but purging Stratholme was the only reasonable choice.
I'd love to see a video about the Infinite Dragonflight after stratholme is done. They've always seemed interesting to me because of how everything they do actually sounds very good in the short term, however long term it's always questionable. Do they have pure intentions, but are incredibly short sighted? Do they have malicious reasons to want to change these past events for personal reasons? Have they gone mad and/or been corrupted to cause havoc? Or have they actually forged a perfect timeline for the greater good but the bronze dragonflight doesn't see it that way and sends heroes to foil them every time? I kinda hope they'll get their own expansion some day
There are two concepts I *genuinely* think would make perfect expansions: Silas Darkmoon, playing on the Shadow Show DMF is very likely based off of, seems insignificant, but I *genuinely* feel it could make an odd, but good focus on an expansion, and a time travel expansion, since we're so buddy-buddy with the Bronzes. In the latter case, I would *personally* love an xpac based around trying to preserve and / or relive the First, Second, and Third wars, with zones dedicated to key battles, whether those seen in Warcrafts 1-3 or some in the background.
About the moral debate on the Culling of Stratholme. I will provide answers based on situations and context, since right choices change based on these. If Arthas' situation was just as we were presented it during WC III, having only just found out about the plagued grain, and the clock ticking with the disease in there. I think that if Arthas had waited for the aid of the Kirin Tor, half the city would be undead and the other half would be getting killed or dying. So waiting for the Kirin Tor's anti-undead aura would have only saved the lives of a few if any at all. But that's enough for you reading, so be it. I will make no comment. I will say this though, Arthas' decision to outright slaughter was misguided. If I were in his position, I would have had the city quarantined, occupied and actually purge the plague out of it. What I mean is gathering any and all citizens, put them in some sort of captivity with a paladin guarding each captive sector, and the moment they turned into undead, kill them. After a certain amount of time, those who didn't turn would be released and maybe examined by the mages for any signs of the plague. And so the struggle against Mal'Ganis changes from killing the people before the demon takes them to who can apprehend the most amount of citizens. It's more complicated, time and resource consuming, but the amount of survivors of Stratholme would have been greatly increased. Now taking the ideal scenario of the Kirin Tor having some instant response (and having already developed the undead killing aura), then having Jaina TP to Dalaran and come back a few minutes later with a squad of mages ready to erect the anti-undead aura in Stratholme, then having Arthas, Uther and their soldiers guard any exit from the city for fleeing citizens and escaping undead, this definitely is of course the better choice morally and result-wise, but it is also the most unlikely if not impossible.
get the power from bronze dragons or black ones, return in time in-game and change them lol, to much critical thinking dude you got here :D its over it happened...
@DCaladbolg Perhaps, but (assuming NOT everyone was infected) it's the most effective way to ensure that those not doomed to undeath get to escape. One way or another, they'll be dead, so it doesn't matter in which state they die. Dying as a human over dying an undead is nothing but a matter of pride.
@Thelondonbadger That's why I spoke based on situation. Truth is we don't know how many were infected, even if all of them is the most likely, that is still just a hypothesis. We do not know period. I never said waiting for the mages was the way to go, I said it was the way to go if the situation was ideal, which it was not.
What choice did he had in the end, realistically? He could have either done nothing and just watch how everyone and their mother turned into mindless scourge, or give them a way less agonizing death. I'd prefer the latter...
I put the blame on Uther and Jaina bcos they should hav stay together with Arthus and find a way to minimize the casualties. The tainted grain was already eaten,they know that there is a good chance the plague could hav happen and yet they didnt help and let Arthus handle the problem alone. Arthus was inexperienced at that time and he need their guidance at handling the problem. Uther was his mentor and Jaina was his friend.They were more experienced than Arthus and were supposed to be showning the way for their prince,not abandoning him when he need them the most.
I agree with this thought. Arthas did what had to be done in a very difficult situation. He needed friends and wisdom after the fact to keep him grounded. If Jaina or Uther had been there through the ordeal then afterwards they would have most likely been able to talk sense to Arthas and he probably wouldn't have gone to Northrend, but back to Lordaeron to explain himself to the King.
I can't really blame Jaina as I can't blame Arthas ... they were both young and inexperienced ... well Uther on the other hand ... welp. The only thing I don't understand is why Jaina didn't went back to the Kirin Tor immediately after pushing Arthas in Uthers care promising to get help. Nope ... it's not like this was her mission in the first place.
Just realising how great it would be to have a story told like this in Retail. Thinking about the Burning of Teldrassil which was told very quickly... Maybe it's not something we can have in an MMORPG. But having more depth to the thinking of each characters would be amazing,
There was no right choice, no matter how you look at it. Leave the city, and the entire population would have turned, and Lordaeron would likely have fallen twice as quickly. Purge them, and the immediate threat was quelled but at a grave cost.
By Arthas' authority that he used to dismiss Uther and his paladins he should have placed the city under a strict quarantine, lock it down and had Jaina set up a barrier to keep everyone inside, then while Arthas and Uther and their forces maintained the quarantine Jaina ports back to Dalaran with a sample of the infected grain so they could devise a counter measure. In the mean time Arthas explains in detail to Uther what is going on and what actions must be taken should the Kirin Tor fail to find a way to save the city. While waiting some citizens begin to turn, making it necessary to send patrols into the city to protect the panicking populous, at some point some of the men under Uthers command get injured/killed/infected and he is honor bound to see switch justice be had for his fallen comrades. This is exactly what Arthas needs to make Uther come around to his side and get his support to purge the city.
What quarantine lel, all of them were already infected and would go on a rampage within half a day or less. The thing you are talking about would be useful if the lordaerons king had listened to the dalaran ambassador In the opening cinematic.
Ultimately there's no telling what would have happened if Arthas hadn't purged. It could have worked out, or it might not have. Either way, that's where the term "morally ambiguous" comes into play here. Jaina and Uther were just as in the right as Arthas was for doing what they did, and you can't convince me otherwise
We do know that Mal'Ganis would have had a huge army of undead in Stratholme if Arthas hadn't destroyed it. It's pretty easy to guess what he would have done with it, and how quickly.
I think there needed to be more of a process, it probably would still leave to killing everyone but at least then they could be sure they had no other option
Waited... But waited how long? Hind sight is always 20/20, but that is why we put people in positions of power. We charge them with responsibility of making the calls that other cannot/will not. I believe Arthas made the best call he could, and not with malicious intent. The prince was dealt cards and he played his best hands at the time
In my Eyes, containing the Plaque in Stratholme and even eradicating it by all means nessassary (in this case the destruction of the city and all its inhabitants) is a horrific but important step to defeat the Scourge Until Arthas was cought in the Scheme of the Dreadlord... Luring him to Northrend, letting him losing his Soul to Frostmourne, Destroying Lordaeron and eventually becoming the Lich King The Downfall of Arthas was the worst thing that could ever happen
I think he made a decision that a great leader should. It wasn't easy, and it destroyed a part of himself to do it. But it was for the greater benefit of his whole kingdom. Uther and Jaina are cowards in this instance and forsake their friend, lover and student while also putting the kingdom at dire risk.
From what we learn during wc3, the moment you break the houses the civs start truning. so it was either kill all in the city or let everyone or almost everyone become a hostile undead solider. the damage a entire citys worth of undead could have caused is prob huge. the undead might have been abel to overrun any quarantine. Regaridng the kirin-tors barrier i belive that arthas didn't know about it and therefor didn't consider it an option, and maybe the barrier was only invented after he jonied the undead, we do not know. i belive that he took the neccesary call given his options, and his belief that he had a limited amount of time. it was not good but it was neccesary. sorry for bad grammer
My wife and I argue about this ALL the time, lol! She is very much on the mindset that what Arthus did was correct and an unavoidable tragedy, that if the plague were to spread from the village it could have had unrepairable repercussions. IIIII think that he could have EASILY quarantined the city with his army, let those capable of escaping do so and filted out the health, guaranteeing the sick till their eventual death.
I think the problem here is that you misunderstand how the living would just easily escape the clutches of the undead. Imagine if your wife turned into a zombie and started trying to kill you, what would you do, run or defend? Or better/worse yet, what if you turned into a mindless zombie, and started trying to kill her instead? Would you rather be put down before you could even have a chance of becoming a zombie, or give your loved ones a miniscule chance of escaping, even if they later on turned into zombies regardless? There is no easy choice, and while a quarantine would have kept the paladin’s mind and hands clean, the city as a whole would experience a nightmare of unbelievable levels. On top of that, it would be difficult to keep the the undead in place while everyone waited for the Kirin Tor’s special magic bubble, and still would have not done anything against Mal’Ganis himself, who’s main objective was to convince the Prince to lead an assault to Northrend and to Frostmourne.
Yes, I do see it as possible as follows: - Arthus does not purge Stratholme. - The rapid fall of EPL and rapid corruption of any troll in the area plus any elf & human settlement that is not fortified or has spells set to protect. - With no Arthus level champion (Kel'Thuzad is still dead) on the scourge side, the elves (Sylvanas+Nathanos+etc) would hold the front on their end. - A big war in WPL, with Scholomance on the scourge side and Hearthglen and Andorhal on the Lordaeron and respectively Alterac sides. Tirisfal would be invaded, but Arthas and Jaina would hold the line. - By the the time Dalaran develops the anti-undead aura and applies it, the scourge finds the "secret" path into the Hinterlands where it corrupts more trolls. At this point the Horde may join the war so to protect the horde (troll) town on the coast (it's a maybe because trolls & orcs didn't yet meet as friends, but still the enemy of my enemy+enemy is still my friend). At least 1/3 of the dwarfs would join the war to protect Aerie Peak. - At worst, the scourge would be held in place and slowly beaten. In this case the north part of the eastern kingdoms would be drained of warriors and sue for peace with Thrall's horde, allowing them to settle in the area. Northrend would still be held by a less dominant scourge. ShadowFang Keep would be a scourge secret base with Arugal trying to play both sides, but Ner'Zhul keeping track of this. - At best, reinforcements arrive from Stromwind, (maybe) Gilneas, Kul'Tiras, Ironforge for the alliance, and Blackrock Mountain for the horde. The elves would link up with Dalaran and apply the anti-undead aura just about everywhere. The scourge would be handled with ease. Ner'Zhul would reinforce Arugal in order to maybe revive Kel'Thuzad as a secondary objective, and as primary objective created more undead so to make the mages maintain the anti-undead aura indefinitely. Because of this, the Lich King would have a big boost in targeting more Burning Legion to arrive/summon on Azeroth, probably at SFK. In the meantime it's either peace or war for Horde-vs-Alliance. If peace then maybe they will commit all forces to Northrend against undead trolls, nerubians, vrykul etc; If war then mostly decimate each other in northern eastern kingdoms. Either way there would be no major force to hold the line against Burning Legion demons pouring forth from ShadowFang Keep. World of Warcraft would still be a go.... but sadly with no Forsaken or undead Sylvanas to lead them :(
I don't really get what part of the culling of Stratholme was necessary - surely all Arthas needed to do was wait until the citizens began to turn, and then kill them when they had lost control. That way, even Uther and Jaina would have stood with him, and the guilt of killing these people would have been mitigated.
The beauty of the vagueness of old Warcraft storytelling (as in WC3 and WoW Vanilla era) was that Blizzard stayed far away enough from the detailed psychology of the characters to not fuck it up. When Arthas did these things, we only see it from the outside and have no idea what's actually happening inside his head. And so when he culls an entire city, or when he kills his own father, there is a degree of uncertainty on our part if he is being *MADE* to do this by an external force (as later elaborations seem to suggest), or if he is doing this of his own accord. One of the things I always found compelling about the Lich King's story was the possible interpretation that Arthas did everything out of a growing -- not decreasing -- conscious awareness of the way things are. And that when he chooses to unite with Ner'zhul, that it was because he has come to realize that life is conflict, and selfish, and will always yield suffering; and that only in death can beings shed their biases and transcend themselves and submit to a unity that is pure enough to unite a human (Arthas) and an Orc (Ner'zhul), the two most bitter-rivaled races on Azeroth. And for us to be going against someone who might be right, in essence meaning that we might be wrong? THAT was the true horror of the Lich King.
Once Stratholm was infected, it was doomed. I just realized that along with Bliz crafting a good story and us discussing the lore, that in some cases we are talking about what are sometimes difficult/harsh ethical and moral decisions in the context of a story.
Thats just lazy writing by blizzard. There is no reason to assume that ppl wouldnt of found out about yog eventually or that someone else wouldnt of dealt with it.
Great video Nobbel! I think Arthas wanted to do the right thing obviously, but he just made the wrong choice on how to do it. Culling the citizens aside from it being slaughter took a major toll on his psyche, and his soul. From there on, his commitment to stopping Mal'Ganis was all that mattered to him and leading him to Frostmourn. Whereas if he considered an alternate route like a quarantine, maybe events would have been different. As fun as it is to speculate though, Chronicles makes it clear, all the necessary parameters to Arthas' fall were in place, it was inevitable.
Arthus made a hard choice of choosong the many over the few. It was a hard choice that every king dreads to make. So his purging of Stratholme was needed even if others disagreed. The mistake Arthus made was that he fled rather than accept the fall out from his actions.
Arthas acted with the information he had on hand while also being slowly infuenced by Mal'ganis and Ner'zhul. Hindsight is 20/20, and we know that the Kirin Tor were able to erect that barrier, just like Jaina had hoped. The problem still remained though. IF they had tried to just quarantine the city, someone would have inevitably escaped and spread the plague further. Arthas delayed the inevitable. Had he chosen to let Jaina go to the Kirin Tor and stay with his paladin mentor, the plague would have spread by different means and maybe even faster than the current history. . .. ... But that is just my opinion on that. Have fun.
I like to think that the Kirin Tor ignored the undead until big events like the Fall of Lorderon happened (they thought it wouldn't be a threat), which later incentivized them to create magics against them. But Lorderon occurred after the Culling of Stratholme, so every citizen would've been converted or dead by the time the magi created the anti-undead barrier.
I think on the future we will run into him again but since he’s free we will somehow bring him back from the shadow lands . I also think the 4 horsemen of the lich King will be matched when the equivalent of the light raising Tirion , Uther, and some others will have a huge grudge match and we will have to side somehow as the factions are somewhat working together loosely again .
Arthas did absolutely nothing wrong. Purging Stratholme was the right decision. Would you rather die instantly or slowly, knowing that you're eventually going to turn and kill your loved ones as a zombie? Even when taking Frostmourne, he was expecting it to curse him and only affect himself, so he was literally taking one for the team the entire time. After picking it up, his will wasn't his own, therefore HE didn't do bad, he did everything he could to protect his people.
Usually the answer lies somewhere in the middle between the two extremes. Not taking action or purging the whole city? Maybe if they had put the whole city under quarantine, while waiting for the Kirin Tor, things would've turned out differently. At the same time Arthas and his men should be supplying the city with uncorrupted water and food, to make sure that not another sould would be infected. Maybe even place some guards (or even himself together with Jaina) inside the city to deal with those, who actually turned into the undead.
Noble88 I am still wondering what games are you playing to follow this path I see Wow online but the others I do not know and like to play them. Can you tell me what they are are they old version of warcraft 1 and 2?
Did Arthas do the right thing? That's a hard question....on the one hand could have just quarantined the city...though that would have left the uninfected people to be ripped apart once the infected turned and then plenty of Scourge inside a fortified city....on the other hand going in and killing everyone before they turned would keep them from becoming Scourge, but you'd be asking your soldiers to slaughter their own people.
Particularly nasty game masters in tabletop role play games love doing this. It is what is called the sadistic choice. Those who uphold good ideals and good morals get left with a pair of choices like that. I personally would have stopped trade of the grain. I would have been made aware of the grain being infected, so I would do what I could to stop trade of all grain and have it all tested. Then I'd step up security all over. But if I was left with this scenario, the lesser of two evils I would be left no choice but to commit, is to quarantine the city. And I'd repent for every soul lost to the Scourge.
Well problem is that if they locked down the city there was still mal'ganis and that makes me think that arthas did one of two choices he could and it was a choice to help his kingdom fend off undead nightmare quick.
@ It wasn't so much that he had to choose between killing those who have yet to die or be infected. Its that he came to the decision so quickly without weighing the risk of what it would do to him. Not only was he quick to condemn the innocent to death, he didn't even repent. It definitely would have been the much lesser evil to wait out the spread, then destroy the undead within. But even that in of itself would have hosted a new problem. He knows Mal'Ganis was behind it, and it would have been harder to get to him if he waited for the whole town to turn.
@ Also, it was indeed his obsession that damned him. Becoming so obsessed with avenging his people, to the point of barring any of his men from going home.
@@GRIMHOOD99 Mal'Ganis definitely would have taken advantage of the quarantine and made Stratholme into his personal fortress. Sucks too, because if he wasn't behind the vast majority of that crisis, the quarantine option would have been the best bet.
If Arthas hadn’t been so overzealous in his decision making and so reckless in his command it would have definitely allowed the alliance to band together and the hold the line to fight for the cities survival. The path Arthas decided to take immediately splintered the Alliance leaders one whether to come to the aid to the Kingdom of Lorderon and their lack of action ultimately lead to its downfall.
Is Mal'Ganis's presence in the Culling canon? Was he collecting victims of the Scourge while Arthas was purging the city as portrayed in the mission in Warcraft III? It always seemed the right choice to purge Stratholme because Mal'Ganis was present doing his thing, but if it was a one sided purge from Arthas it's a different story.
I don't believe it could have been played out in any other way. But I certainly would like to see a "what if" scenario with the Kirin Tor barrier idea, to see if the plague would get out or not
I think there is always another option, but with time travel being a thing and the benefit of knowing what comes to pass and being able to play it out in the best way possible, there is only one way it can go down. That's the trouble with introducing time travel into a story, it can entirely invalidate the conversations that happen in the moment as useless.
The Culling of Stratholme was no easy choice, but it was the only option at the time. Arthas' only mistake was going after Mal'ganis, which ultimately sealed his fate. Lordearon was doomed the moment the plague was created. The Culling of Stratholme only postponed it. And even if Arthas hadn't turned evil, Ner'zhul would have found another champion.
The question of the Light's reaction is sticky. Benedictus could use the light by his willpower while also using shadow and serving the Void. But Liadrin was unable to use the Light for healing at Silvermoon due to shaken faith and a loss of concentration. It could've gone out because after Uther and Jaina leave him, he doesn't actually feel worthy to wield the Light, is doubting himself, and in the horror of what he's doing is also doubting the Light. And who could blame him? It dimly lights the hammer again when he tries to get to Malganis at the end of that same chapter, so it hasn't completely abandoned him in that moment. The fact that it's part of "The one true timeline" fits with the Light's take on there being "Only one truth" philosophy (Though the first might be more of a Titan thing, just to make this even more complicated?). But that makes it the "right" choice. What gets me is that Uther tells Jaina before: "But sometimes the only decision is which is the lesser evil. Sometimes there's no way to fix everything . Arthas is learning that." She says she won't let him go alone, and then they both just leave. While the Kirin Tor eventually came up with something Stratholme was already done and would have played out the way Arthas said it would. The only better option would've been Jaina fire bombing the city while everyone slept.
@@King.Leonidas The key part is if it happened while they were sleeping, there's a good chance they wouldn't know. Vs having their chests and skulls smashed in by people who are supposed to protect them. It is also really terrible though, there is no good answer in this scenario.
I think he made the tough call but also that he rushed it...that is to say he chose the simplest root without exploring all his options which demonstrates the ruthlessness that would ultimately bring him to his destruction
Stratholm: Pit of Sauron of Vanilla. Of course, With Arthas's level of education, Arthas's decision to purge the city was the best salutation because it was the knly salutiin as they didnt know if undeath was spread like the curse of the Wargen or otherwise. Woth Mal'ganis's main base in Northrend, it was a one time opportunity to stop rhe scourge where it stood, or be washed under it. Unfortunately, Arthas and Lordaeron were indeed washed under the Scourge; they just weren't prepared.
If Arthas didn't intent to hunt Mal'Ganis in the end of the culling of Stratholme, the outcome would br good choice, because the next move is to cleanse Lordaeron from the Cult of The Damned member and their operations, also they probably can joining with the Horde and the Sentinel at the battle of Mount Hjall. The purge become a meaningless choice because in the later Arthas undone what's he supposed to do to save his people. Situationally the purge only one of many logical choice, just less methodical and ethically questionable, but it's effective action to do in this desperate time.
@Thelondonbadger we could makes argument about the important role of Lich King, or even about the use of LK's power and his minions as a mean to greater good for Azeroth in the grand scheme of things. But ultimately, being an undead isn't worth the price for that, since if you had been slain as an undead during the battle agains Old God's forces, your soul would damned for eternity as what is happened to Sylvanas, she's know the true fate of undead being. You may delay the doom of the world, but ironically you can't save your self forever.
I really dont see an out for Arthas, if we go by WC3 the entire city was infected AND you have undead roaming and rampaging through the streets with a dreadlord at the helm, you don't have time or manpower for a quarantine. The Kirin Tor had a good amount of time to prepare before the undead avalanche crashed into their city, even if that wasn't a factor the time it would take to go there and back could put the entire operation and region at risk. Maybe if Uther or at least Jaina stayed with him to keep him anchored to who he was things may be different, he needed a guiding hand or comfort now more than ever despite the circumstances.
Arthas was put in an unimaginably terrible situation, and while his pride and duty as Prince played a role in his slipping, I'd say Jaina and Uther abandoning him played a bigger one.
honestly i was always concerned with why uther didn't try to stop arthus from murdering a city of people instead he just left perhaps uther knew arthus was right and didnt want to see it for himself
To be fair, Arthas was right when he said they would eventually turn. They even turned mid mission. So no, he did nothing wrong until he picked up frostmourne
@@rerako4755 oh yeah, he lost his shit after Stratholme.
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I think that this situation didn't have a good solution. As you can see during the mission, people of Stratholme already started turning into undead. If Arthas would decide to not purge the city, all the turned would kill the living anyway before any other plan could be even discussed. So it's understandable, but I'm not sure if I would decide the same, I probably couldn't just like Jaina.
Arthas was stuck between a rock and a hard place. I think purging Stratholme was the right decision, considering how many people were infected and going to turn but rushing to Northrend was a trap and Arthas fell into it.
It's less about "Was Arthas right or wrong?", the issue is that on that day Arthas fell. He fell far before he wielded Frostmourne, that was just the last nail in the coffin and the proof of his damnation. Whatever the fate of Lordaeron, a Prince and even more a Paladin of the Holy Light wouldn't have done what Arthas did.
Arthas did what was necessery . . . Quick death or one more city to join growing undead legions. . . . But also his first step on becoming the Lich King in future . . . Best written charachter in wow universe
Frankly I don't really see where the uncertainty is. Doesn't the fact that the light abandoned him indicate that he made the morally wrong choice, narratively speaking? Never mind that anyone with a great school grasp of morality can tell it was the bad. Arthas was the worst boy before he even picked up the cursey sword.
Not exactly. The light abandoned Arthas h because of his feelinga regarding the culling. The light is mostly fueled by conviction, has seen by the paladins from the Scarlet Crusade. They did morally despistable stuff, but their conviction made using the light possible.
I remember around 7 years ago, i was playing Wow and i was wondering what happened with balnazzar. Since he was one of my favorite when i was playing W3. And that was still mystery to me, i didn't knew if he is even in wow or not. One day i was doing stratholme, and i saw some paladin with allot of hp. I was like, okey so this is kinda underwhelming for a boss, but oke. And than on half hp hude Dread lord pops up, and when i read his name.... I was literally stunned by finding my favorite W3 character hidden in straholme.
What if all this time the infinite dragonflight have been trying to create alternate time lines like WOD to prepare an army for us to combat the void. Like a army of humans, elves dwarves and gnomes that never had to deal with the Horde invasion. And a horde that was never corrupted by demons and Night elves that where never hurt by the sundering. And we have been fighting them and stopping us from having a prepared army to fight N’Zoth
Arthas didn't make the most reasonable choice at that moment. He made a choice out of fear and first hand experience with the undead forces (the previous campaign mission start with the town turning in front of him). He decided that the death of the citizen of Stratholme was worth saving the rest of lodearon without consulting others with more influence (his father as the king could just quarantine the city and other places where the grain went, the kirin tor could find a way to fight the curse). In the end the lich king wanted to put arthas in this position a place where he would fight based on personal attachment and instinct.
Arthas was a pawn of forces way beyond his control. Or rather, one force: The Lich King. As Kel'Thuzad would say later: "He chose you to be his champion long before the Scourge even began." Source: wow.gamepedia.com/The_Revelation_(WC3_Undead)
When you go to a Caverns of time dungeon/raid, and your race wasn't present at that time it will turn you into a race that was, for example, Night Elves and Pandaren.
Unpopular opinion, but Arthas made a mistake. He didn't send out scout parties, didn't investigate how wide the plague has spread, didn't at least think of alternatives, instead he just dived head first into a brute force option. Even if the plague was on the brink of outburst (which it wasn't, there were human survivors of the purge), he could at least organize a strict quarantine with Uther and send Jaina to Dalaran and look for help. The plague was a result of magic, it was worth looking into and searching for solutions. The culling might have temporarily stopped the spread of the plague, but it also sent out the message that the future ruler was willing to sacrifice anyone, pay any price, and bend any rule to defeat the plague - if you were a citizen of Lordaeron, how would you feel about it? Then again, if he did all these, he would not be the Arthas we know, the champion chosen by the Lich King. So his downfall was destined, by himself.
Stratholme was doomed. Maybe, if they had prevented the spread of the infected grain earlier, most of the damage could've been prevented. By the time Arthas figured out the city was infected, they had maybe hours to do something. Nowhere near enough time for the Kirin Tor to do anything about it. With all that said, their best course of action would've been to destroy the bridge and barricade the remaining exits around the city to prevent any undead from leaving later.
The best Arthus could have done was quarantine the city and pretty much watch the city turn on itself. With a majority of the citizen infected, they would have eventually broken the quarantine zone. The biggest issue was Mal Ganis. In WC3, he was actively gathering the converted citizens. Arthus could stop him and wait for Uther and Jaina to bring reinforcements, but Mal Ganis would have probably gathered enough undead to force Arthus to retreat. Mal Ganis would follow up by commit worst atrocities to goad Arthus to go to Northrend. One way or another, Lordareon would have collapsed under the weight of the plague and undead. And playing Azeroth wars taught me anything, lich King doom drops will eventually come and mop up a weakened alliance team.
Unfortunately Strathome was already lost. Arthas could have waited to see who was abs wasn't infected but then how meant would they have had to fight and how many uninfected citizens would have been killed by the now undead. It was an unfortunate choice and a brutal one but probably the best one away the time, for the sake of all of Lorderon.
Nobbel87. I hade an argument with a friend discussing WoW lore. He is convinced that Varien is the best Varrior in the game. And I’m convinced it’s Saurfang. That lead me to and idea. Can’t you make a video talking about different characters in WoW of every class in the game and discus from a lore perspective who is the best of the best when it comes to that class?
![The Story of Stratholme - Part 2 of 2 [Lore] "City of Eternal Flames?"](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YU0PDCYtDI4/mqdefault.jpg)
![The Story of Stratholme - Part 2 of 2 [Lore] "City of Eternal Flames?"](/img/tr.png)
![The Story of Alexandros Mograine -The Ashbringer - Part 1 of 2 [Lore]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/nZDLdcW-AbM/mqdefault.jpg)
Curious about your opinion so made a little strawpoll. Have a great week! www.strawpoll.me/18646494
Yes. If Arthas didn't do what he did, we would've started the Walking Dead series in Warcraft.
@@vados8500 Except people who died from the Black Death didn't get back up and become part of an Undead army.
@@MrGoesBoom ok this is a fantasy game but the concept of my comparison is more or less the same, you are basically saying just like Arthas that all ill people who could spread a deadly disease that cannot be cured should be executed immediately? If you truly think so, that's very rough dude. And anyway I think even if the whole Stratholme had turned into an undead city, a truly united Alliance (all human kingdoms+the Dwarves + the High Elves just like during the Second War) should have still been able to defeat the Scourge in Lordaeron. This, again, if the Alliance had been truly united like they were in the Second War against the Old Horde. Maybe the whole Alliance could have defeated the Scourge in Northrend too considering even the small Alliance expedition of Arthas did quite a lot of damage to the Undead in Northrend before Arthas picked up Frostmourne anyway.
@Vados I think MrGoesBoom has a point, however. You're talking about a population dying of sickness. He's referring to a population that's being weaponized - and loses the ability for rational thought at the same time. In the end, they will all have to be killed anyway, whether through violence immediately, or years of trying to starve them out, with the odd group of adventurers waltzing through for some casual killing.
I MISREAD THE QUESTION AND VOTED NO BY MISTAKE REE
"Glad you could make it, Arthas."
"Watch your tone with me, Arthas. You may be Arthas, but I'm still your superior as an Arthas."
"As if I could forget. Listen, Arthas. There is something about the Arthas you should know.
Oh, no. We're too late. These Arthases have all been infected. They may look fine now, but it's only a matter of time before they turn... into the Arthas."
"What?!"
"This entire Arthas must be purged."
"How can you even consider Arthas? There is got to be some other Arthas!"
"Damn it, Arthas. As your future Arthas, I order you to purge this Arthas!"
"You are not my Arthas yet, Arthas! Nor would I obey that Arthas even if you were Arthas!"
"Then I must consider this... an act... of ARTHAS!"
"Arthas?! Have you lost your mind, Arthas?"
"Have I? Lord Arthas, by my right of succession and the sovereignty of my Arthas, I hereby relieve you of your Arthas and suspend your Arthases from service!"
"Arthas, you can't just-"
"It's done! Those of you with the will to save this Arthas, follow me. The rest of you, get out of my sight."
"You just crossed a terrible threshold, Arthas."
"Arthas?"
"I'm sorry, Arthas. I can't watch you do Arthas."
My Arthas. The day you were Arthas, the very forests of Arthas whispered the name...
M A G N U M D O N G
@Frostmourne
Oh dont be so Arthas, Arthas.
Giulio, I am awarding you 5 internets. Well met.
@@Truth_Will_Out Same, I enjoyed.
This comment is fucking stupid. But I love it.
Arthas was right when it came to the Purge, up until he burned the Ships in Northrend and he was more fueled by hatred then anything is when he went downhill.
One thing does bugger me. Uther abandoned people of stratholm. After a token resistance he just left innocent to fend them selves. It is hard to think that this is a champion of light...
yeah it was always a bit weird ... not only how the story turns so dark in a few minutes, but also how all the "heroes" just left the place ... like ... they just put the blame on Arthas and good. No let's do this together so we can keep you in check. No let's all do our own thing and see how it goes. Just your idea sucks and because nobody has a better we don't care.
So much for "you're not my king yet ... boi" *waltzes out of the way after being dismissed*
Fighting Arthas would be his only other option and besides the fact that could get Arthas killed and would weaken the alliance forces during an undead breakout. Also Arthas is the prince and if the Prince of a absolute monarchy told you to do something and you refused, you position would be tenuous at best. The fact that Uther was a well respected paladin was the only reason Arthas could not just imprison him.
Lazy writing.
I suspect Uther strongly hoped that there will be a way to bring heal the infected people and wanted to resort to killing only as an last resort.
@@alect525
I'm a few years too late, but I think people expected was for Uther to be a bit more like Tirion while defending Eitrigg.
The dude sacrifice everything he could to stick to his conviction, Uther, on the other hand, was like "meh, I tried"
Was Arthas emotionally compromised and made the call on impulses? Yes.
But is it still the right call? Also yes.
Let say he decided to go for the conservative option and just quarantine the city as what government in zombie film tend to do. Then what? We already know the citizens *did in fact* consumed the plague grains, and that Mal'Ganis' forces *are* in the city. The moment they turn, the undead horde would overwhelm the quarantine and swept over the land like an avalanche. The whole point of building an undead army is to achieve critical mass after all. And how do we counter it? *By not letting them reach critical mass.* Ergo the burning.
There are no reason to believe help could arrive in time to prevent it, no reason to believe the mages could invent the anti-Undead Barrier in time, especially when Mal'Ganis himself is personally speeding up the process.
As for the morality of it: Yes, you are murdering innocents. Yes, there is a chance some of them are not infected. Should we save the few and risk killing the many? We also know that these aren't just your average mindless zombie in movies, these Undead's souls still trapped in them, bound to forever serve the Lich King. If it was me being in that situation, i would consider death by my allies to be a mercy.
Being a ruler mean you have to make choices, not just right ones, but hard ones as well. And sometimes all available choices are equally shitty, so you just gotta make do with what you have.
11/10 would Purge again.
@Shinigami Sama actually, now that you mentioned it, Antonidas and the Kirin Tor mages already knew a protective spell that could work as anti-Undead barrier, killing all Undead under it, as they did that when Arthas and the Scourge attacked Dalaran later. Time was not a problem as Jaina could teleport in Dalaran immediately and warn them about the Scourge in Stratholme, also Quel'thalas is near that city so the Elven magi could have helped the Humans too. So yeah, purging Stratholme was the fastest option but definitely there were additional solutions that could have spared at least some people. The problem is that Arthas was a Human who like Garrosh acted on impulses without thinking about his own actions and consequences most of the time, just looking at results and thinking his own opinion was the best one. Which is the reason Garrosh failed just like Arthas ultimately.
@@vados8500 A few major flaws with that view are:
1. That assumes anybody told Arthas.
2. Considering how many mages were needed, and how it took so long to kill a ghoul, the entire city would probably fall anyway.
3. Even if it did work, you don't have enough archmages to do this everywhere.
@@vados8500 As I said, there are no guarantees the mages of Kirin Tor could help in time. In many occasion they are rather selfish and independent, thinking first for themselves.
During the event, *literally no one* step up to Arthas and tell him of a better idea. Even Jaina, the only person Arthas would trust and agree to at that point, just whine and leave him.
Now assuming we can set that barrier up, following WC3 they would need several Arch Mages setting up at different areas to power a magic generator. Once they die, that sector is dead. And you know Mal'Ganis ain't just gonna sit there and let them set up, let alone keep it running.
Also, the barrier *slowly kill all Undead,* which mean any infected still going to die, only slower and with magic instead of a clean kill.
To be fair from the opening cinematic of the human campaign it's clear that the Kirin Tor already had it's eyes on the whole topic and even specifically mentioned they would put every city under quarantine ... (always remember it backwards :/ man I really don't like the kirin tor it seems) ... but the King dismissed this as long as there was no prove ... which is own son would provide now.
They probably would have acted, but it can be assumed that it wouldn't be as quick as it should have been (even with mass teleportation).
The "morally good" option probably would be to send Jaina to the Kirin Tor and some squire and scouts to bring as much soldiers and paladins they could find, quarantine the city, separate the already sick from the still healthy, try to fend off the undead under Morganis, try to fend of the rising undead in their midst, try to hold out until reinforcements of any sorts arrive and then try to clear out the place as best as they could.
But this leaves a lot of "try"s and "could"s and would be a huge gamble ... funny enough with Uther just leaving the place and taking most of the paladins with him, it's leaves Arthas with even less choice to make sure his now smaller troop won't be overrun.
I would basically agree. And I think that by their actions, Jaina and Uther prove that there really was no better alternative. After all, all they did was just stand aside, let all of it transpire, and then they came back and Uther got all self-righteous about it again. I mean, what were those two doing in the meantime? Standing in the corner covering their eyes? Was it really the morally better alternative? Shouldn't that cause them DOUBLE guilty conscience? Either inaction in terms of Stratholme citizens causing people to turn undead, or inaction in terms of Arthas causing what they spoke against? I think it's entirely possible that they secretly hoped Arthas would dirty his hands so they wouldn't have to. Because apparently they didn't want to do anything.
This was super shitty situation. I don't think there was equally shitty situation in Warcraft universe ever since. Can't think of any other similar situation in all of fiction right now that is as horrifying as this.
But regardless if it was the best call what to do at that moment, it pushed Arthas over the edge and all of his subsequent decisions he did after that were most of the time uncalled for.
I want Nobbel to do a full wc 3 reforged playthrough ,seeing him excited about every moment and special bits
ohhh hell yes, the moment they release!
Nobbel87 Which sadly probably won’t be for quite a while :(
@@kaizoulol By the end of this year, so a minimum of 3 months.
@@ThatOneGuyATC the lack of news kinda makes this unlikely though
@@Pat8u prob next month for holiday season, just waiting for classic to drop
With what he did, he prevented the spread of the plague although for not long. I believe what in lore that he did wasn't wrong, but was certainly necessary and ruthless.
@Reee Monro But becoming the Lich king was important to other characters falling as well such as Illadin. He became a true demon hunter when he consumed the skull of guldan which happens because of nerzul/arthas
@Reee Monro same way anakin was corrupted in star wars
Or he could have ordered every citizen locked and quarentined inside their homes and went door by door clearing the undead where needed.
@@Caedus696 Quarantine was impossible for a city of that size with the limited resources Arthas had at hand. And I noticed neither Uther nor Jaina offered that. They just walked away.
That tells me they knew there weren't any other options at the time, but were too cowardly to do what was needed.
@@Caedus696 With the limited troops Arthas had? He would have to split his forces into a section that would enforce the quarentine, and a portion to fight Mal ganis
Arthas: Woud you rather be smashed into a thousand pieces or would you rather be undead, attacking everything you love?
...or smashed into a thousand needles... oh wait, different continent, never mind Magatha, nothing to see here...
Wow Wyndell, you can hear! I'm so happy for you!
I really don't get these types of comments, just quoting a line from the video itself with no further meaning..
@@RafimOfficial It means they enjoyed it. Like folk who repeat jokes they hear at a comedy show.
No need for cruel comments.
WoW classic has a guild on Kromkrush Alliance called "Arthas Did Nothing Wrong" lmao
I think I've seen a similar one on Argual except if was "Garrosh did nothing wrong"
If arthas did nothing wrong then sylvanas did nothing wrong as well
@Whiterose Petal Tale true dat
@Whiterose Petal Tale only cowards think that way
@Whiterose Petal Tale she literally enslaves the dead and massacres cities full of innocents.
Why is it people can't think rationally if it's fiction? She is quiet literally evil
I remember being a kid and watching ny brothers play through the W3 campaign, I loved the story and the "Captain" unit and I still remember feeling uncomfortable when I saw what Arthas turned into. Nowadays I understand more about him and his decision, One of the best characters
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA no 🙃
The arthas arc was worth of the best film. The fucking guy went into a self-destructive spiral that turnt him into a death paladin and then death personified
In terms of the game theres also other factors.
1: Everyone infected turn in the span of a day after arthas arrives. So no calling for aid, before you got an entire city full of undead and dead(all the infected would kill the uninfected). In which you would lose lots of soldiers.
2: Malganis is there too, with his own army of undead and rallying all those who turned. So you arent able to calmly think it through, as the city is already under attack.
3: no authority knows about the plague. Arthas and Jaina was sent out to investigate some strange sickness in some distant towns, the undead hadnt arrived yet.
It upsets me because they BOTH left arthas there to do this. As a father figure and higher paladin uther should have done more. Its just like what thrall did to garrosh. He wasnt in the state to do what had to be done yet they left the student to fend for themselves and thus they are the reason that it happened. Not arthas
Uther's and Jaina's suggestion was to let half of them die and raise as undead, kill their surviving family members and then sacrifice soldiers to kill them in open battle under the command of a Dreadlord IF they could even win such a fight. It wasn't Frostmourne that corrupted Arthas, it was Uther actually proving how shallow "the light" was.
Now that's unfair to Uther seeing as how Arthas suspended him and his paladins so he didn't leave as much as was forced to leave. He could have just gone rogue and stayed anyway but that would have probably made Arthas even more angry.
@@alect525 If Arthas was wrong he should had fought against Arthas, if Arhtas was right he should had helped him. He choose option no3, stay clean and act judgmental.
Absolutely agree.
@@MrMortadelas exactly. He chose to keep his hands clean and let arthas take the fall
One of the oldest examples of a DM forcing their paladin to fall with an impossible choice. Killing a town by his own hand, or killing his kingdom by inaction. And even the compromise, careful screening and checks, would no doubt take so much time that Mal'ganis could simply do it all again somewhere else. It's hard not to feel sympathy for Arthas in this, because *this* of all things should not have been the choice that sealed his fate. It wouldn't have had to been, I imagine, if he'd better companions to keep his path true...
Arthas' companions were not the issue. His lust for power and vengeance was.
@Aerial Rave Damned if you do, damned if you don’t. You no less become the villain and must be punished for it. Fall upon your sword or see it pointed at you.
@Whiterose Petal Tale The Kingdom fell anyway, and Arthas just played to Ner'zhul's tune. Stratholme's people weren't spared from Undeath and many still were risen as Undead.
@Whiterose Petal Tale It's not poetic. It just means that he was driven by selfish, self-centered and victimized reasons. He was abandoned by those around him because he was going down a dark path.
The one mistake Uther made as Arthas' superior was to not stop him that day.
We don't know what would've happened if Stratholme hadn't been purged because we never experienced a timeline where that happened. People assume it was the right decision because they take Arthas' judgement of there being no other choices as fact.
@Whiterose Petal Tale No, nobody said they had to "wait and see", there's intermediate quarantine options before making the "literally kill every last person" decision.
Arthas didn't *know* the scope of the infection when he decided to just raze the city. The players might've known, but he went on very little evidence and decided there was no salvation for them.
Razing a city even if they were still going to die is still genocide.
i thank that Arthas made the right choive in purgeing the city but after that he shod have gone home and told his father what had happend not go to northrend
What other choice did Arthas really have? If he had left Stratholme alone, the scourge would have amassed a great army there and have spread outward, slaughtering those in their path and raising even more undead.
What he did wasn’t pretty nor easy, but it had to be done to protect everyone outside of Stratholme. There simply wasn’t an alternative.
Pedro Hernandez There’s always a choice. Arthas chose the easy way, but went too far... right into damnation.
@@fumarc4501 The choice was between a city and a kingdom. Having a choice isn't the same as having a good alternative.
@@maledwarfwarrior so in the end... he fcked up both
@Venser's Prodigy There was no “good” choice. Just easy and hard. Easy is killing everyone, hard way would have been quarantine and looking for a cure. Then Arthas didn’t make it about duty, he made it about himself and vengeance. Got even more of his people killed alone and freezing at the roof of the world.
@Thelondonbadger listen to that last part again; “Anyone who didn’t get the infected grain, would end up being killed and raised as undead anyways.”
That’s the problem. All the people Arthas didn’t even try to save, still died and became undead. Sooner and later, the scourge raised them as undead anyways. The only thing he could have done to limit it would have been to evacuate and screen as many living people as possible... aka the hard way. I’m not saying killing all the people of Strathome was easy, but it was easier then finding another way...
Arthas is Azeroth's first "morally grey" character. Well, maybe not the first, but the first most famous (infamous?) that pops up in most peoples' mind. As deeply seeded as our Azrothian lore is with "grey" characters, Arthas is very well near the top.
What other try grey characters are there?
Arthas did nothing wrong. He sacrificed himself to the darkness to save his people, maybe if Jaina stood by his side at that time the story would end in a different way.
It's hard to save your people when you've killed them all, to be fair.
@Harvey Dustin What about Mal ganis and the Undead? Are they just going to sit there and let what you suggested happen?
@Harvey Dustin , your idea on how Arthis could have handled the situation sounds better then the choice he chose..........I agree he acted to quickly and out of anger. wanting to purge Strathholme and suspending the Paladins because they didn't agree with him was fool hardy. he wasn't thinking clearly.
@Harvey Dustin dumbass comment. By the time he rocked up it was already too late.
Arthas did the right thing. It was brutal, and harsh. But it was the right thing. If I was one of the people who ate the tainted grain, I would have knelt before Arthas and begged him to bash in my head before I turned. Its simple as that. Stratholme was a horrible horrible tragedy, but Arthas' actions were the best ones possible. Uther was high minded, yes, but he didn't have a way to cure the people or protect them. And while yes, if he just let them all turn and THEN kill them, it would have been more morally justified in the eyes of some. But if he did that, how many innocents would suffer as those who DIDN'T eat the grain got torn apart by those who did? Zombie apocalypse logic problems are a nasty business.
The citizens didn't know they were about to turn into zombies tho
@NegaDruid
It's highly doubtful the entire city had been munching on the latest shipment, and either way you're reasoning is kind of like saying "dropping nukes in Japan was brutal and harsh, but it was the right thing". It's never going to be the right thing, even in understandable circumstances.
@@RileyRivalle2 How do you make an empire hell-bent on fighting you to the last man surrender?
@@zerefsunlimitedshipworks - When they've retreated, are on the defensive and vastly outmatched? Probably with a blockade. Or focused strikes against military leadership. Or if you're feeling adventurous, a fringe invasion to prove how powerless they really are at the time. Then, there's the question of whether they need to surrender at all at that particular moment considering they're already beaten, meaning USA retreating from Japan would immediately end the bloodshed. Peace talks could come later.
USA nuked the civilian population of Japan because they would rather sacrifice scores of Japanese civilians than some US military in order to force a surrender.
I don't know what weird things you've been taught or read to even say something like that, but for the record it was really stupid. That was like "why should we help Japan's relief efforts after a huge earthquake when they bombed Pearl Harbor 70 years ago?" level of stupid.
The Eastern Kingdoms were doomed. Medivh was trying to get them to see that. Arthas made the call to purge the city out of desperation more then anything else. If Jaina and Arthas has listened to Medihv and worked together to evacuate as many people as possible the events would have played out as we saw them, but with a united people returning to retake Lordaeron with the help of the high elves and even Stormwind. Was Arthas right? No. Was he stubborn and desperate? Yes. Good job Nobbel, now I want to reread the Arthas novel and my desire to play Reforged in even greater!
If Arthas goes to Kalimdor, He will surely meet with Thrall and start the childish wars again.
Arthas was absolutely right, he didn't know whether the eastern kingdoms were doomed, he was operating under the impression this was something that could be contained, could he have been better with communication? Sure, but purging Stratholme was the only reasonable choice.
#arthasdidnothingwrong #strathholmdidnthappen #flatearth
Arthas: Jaina?
Jaina: I'm sorry, Arthas. I can't watch you do this.
Me: That gets me everytime.
"I'm sorry Arthas, I can't watch you do Arthas."
BUT TJEY DIDNT STOP HIM its just as much as their fault
I'm sorry, Jaina. You can't watch me do this
Especially after reading the book
@@cleonasedai You're sorry Jaina* ;)
I'm sorry, Arthas. I can't watch you do Arthas.
For those of you who have the will to save this land, follow me.. The rest if you, Get out of my Arthas!!!
Oh no, these Arthases have all been infected.
They may look fine now but it is only a matter of time before they turn...Into the Arthas!
Glad you could make it, Arthas.
I am sorry, Arthas, I can't Arthas you do Arthas.
That's the right way to say it
"Arthas?"
I'd love to see a video about the Infinite Dragonflight after stratholme is done. They've always seemed interesting to me because of how everything they do actually sounds very good in the short term, however long term it's always questionable. Do they have pure intentions, but are incredibly short sighted? Do they have malicious reasons to want to change these past events for personal reasons? Have they gone mad and/or been corrupted to cause havoc? Or have they actually forged a perfect timeline for the greater good but the bronze dragonflight doesn't see it that way and sends heroes to foil them every time?
I kinda hope they'll get their own expansion some day
There are two concepts I *genuinely* think would make perfect expansions: Silas Darkmoon, playing on the Shadow Show DMF is very likely based off of, seems insignificant, but I *genuinely* feel it could make an odd, but good focus on an expansion, and a time travel expansion, since we're so buddy-buddy with the Bronzes.
In the latter case, I would *personally* love an xpac based around trying to preserve and / or relive the First, Second, and Third wars, with zones dedicated to key battles, whether those seen in Warcrafts 1-3 or some in the background.
About the moral debate on the Culling of Stratholme. I will provide answers based on situations and context, since right choices change based on these.
If Arthas' situation was just as we were presented it during WC III, having only just found out about the plagued grain, and the clock ticking with the disease in there. I think that if Arthas had waited for the aid of the Kirin Tor, half the city would be undead and the other half would be getting killed or dying. So waiting for the Kirin Tor's anti-undead aura would have only saved the lives of a few if any at all. But that's enough for you reading, so be it. I will make no comment.
I will say this though, Arthas' decision to outright slaughter was misguided. If I were in his position, I would have had the city quarantined, occupied and actually purge the plague out of it. What I mean is gathering any and all citizens, put them in some sort of captivity with a paladin guarding each captive sector, and the moment they turned into undead, kill them. After a certain amount of time, those who didn't turn would be released and maybe examined by the mages for any signs of the plague. And so the struggle against Mal'Ganis changes from killing the people before the demon takes them to who can apprehend the most amount of citizens. It's more complicated, time and resource consuming, but the amount of survivors of Stratholme would have been greatly increased.
Now taking the ideal scenario of the Kirin Tor having some instant response (and having already developed the undead killing aura), then having Jaina TP to Dalaran and come back a few minutes later with a squad of mages ready to erect the anti-undead aura in Stratholme, then having Arthas, Uther and their soldiers guard any exit from the city for fleeing citizens and escaping undead, this definitely is of course the better choice morally and result-wise, but it is also the most unlikely if not impossible.
get the power from bronze dragons or black ones, return in time in-game and change them lol, to much critical thinking dude you got here :D
its over it happened...
Arthas had no idea the Kirin Tor would be capable of such a thing. Jaina didn't even consider it.
@DCaladbolg Perhaps, but (assuming NOT everyone was infected) it's the most effective way to ensure that those not doomed to undeath get to escape. One way or another, they'll be dead, so it doesn't matter in which state they die.
Dying as a human over dying an undead is nothing but a matter of pride.
@Thelondonbadger That's why I spoke based on situation. Truth is we don't know how many were infected, even if all of them is the most likely, that is still just a hypothesis. We do not know period.
I never said waiting for the mages was the way to go, I said it was the way to go if the situation was ideal, which it was not.
@@ReikaLady The aura was the ideal scenario, not the realistic one.
What choice did he had in the end, realistically?
He could have either done nothing and just watch how everyone and their mother turned into mindless scourge, or give them a way less agonizing death.
I'd prefer the latter...
I put the blame on Uther and Jaina bcos they should hav stay together with Arthus and find a way to minimize the casualties.
The tainted grain was already eaten,they know that there is a good chance the plague could hav happen and yet they didnt help and let Arthus handle the problem alone.
Arthus was inexperienced at that time and he need their guidance at handling the problem.
Uther was his mentor and Jaina was his friend.They were more experienced than Arthus and were supposed to be showning the way for their prince,not abandoning him when he need them the most.
I agree with this thought. Arthas did what had to be done in a very difficult situation. He needed friends and wisdom after the fact to keep him grounded. If Jaina or Uther had been there through the ordeal then afterwards they would have most likely been able to talk sense to Arthas and he probably wouldn't have gone to Northrend, but back to Lordaeron to explain himself to the King.
Andrew Ertle Yes,exactly!!
Jaina did regret not stopping Arthas during the pride of kultiras story line
I can't really blame Jaina as I can't blame Arthas ... they were both young and inexperienced ... well Uther on the other hand ... welp.
The only thing I don't understand is why Jaina didn't went back to the Kirin Tor immediately after pushing Arthas in Uthers care promising to get help. Nope ... it's not like this was her mission in the first place.
Just realising how great it would be to have a story told like this in Retail. Thinking about the Burning of Teldrassil which was told very quickly... Maybe it's not something we can have in an MMORPG. But having more depth to the thinking of each characters would be amazing,
Nothing but pure love and gratefulness for this masterpiece
This entire arthas must be watched!
There was no right choice, no matter how you look at it. Leave the city, and the entire population would have turned, and Lordaeron would likely have fallen twice as quickly. Purge them, and the immediate threat was quelled but at a grave cost.
By Arthas' authority that he used to dismiss Uther and his paladins he should have placed the city under a strict quarantine, lock it down and had Jaina set up a barrier to keep everyone inside, then while Arthas and Uther and their forces maintained the quarantine Jaina ports back to Dalaran with a sample of the infected grain so they could devise a counter measure. In the mean time Arthas explains in detail to Uther what is going on and what actions must be taken should the Kirin Tor fail to find a way to save the city. While waiting some citizens begin to turn, making it necessary to send patrols into the city to protect the panicking populous, at some point some of the men under Uthers command get injured/killed/infected and he is honor bound to see switch justice be had for his fallen comrades. This is exactly what Arthas needs to make Uther come around to his side and get his support to purge the city.
What quarantine lel, all of them were already infected and would go on a rampage within half a day or less. The thing you are talking about would be useful if the lordaerons king had listened to the dalaran ambassador In the opening cinematic.
Ultimately there's no telling what would have happened if Arthas hadn't purged. It could have worked out, or it might not have. Either way, that's where the term "morally ambiguous" comes into play here. Jaina and Uther were just as in the right as Arthas was for doing what they did, and you can't convince me otherwise
We do know that Mal'Ganis would have had a huge army of undead in Stratholme if Arthas hadn't destroyed it. It's pretty easy to guess what he would have done with it, and how quickly.
I think there needed to be more of a process, it probably would still leave to killing everyone but at least then they could be sure they had no other option
Waited... But waited how long? Hind sight is always 20/20, but that is why we put people in positions of power. We charge them with responsibility of making the calls that other cannot/will not.
I believe Arthas made the best call he could, and not with malicious intent. The prince was dealt cards and he played his best hands at the time
In my Eyes, containing the Plaque in Stratholme and even eradicating it by all means nessassary (in this case the destruction of the city and all its inhabitants) is a horrific but important step to defeat the Scourge
Until Arthas was cought in the Scheme of the Dreadlord...
Luring him to Northrend, letting him losing his Soul to Frostmourne, Destroying Lordaeron and eventually becoming the Lich King
The Downfall of Arthas was the worst thing that could ever happen
Man I’ve been waiting for this the moment you released plaguelands.
It's good that it ended up the way it did. Can you imagine what would of happened it Arthas wasn't there to stop Illidan from becoming the Lich King?
I think he made a decision that a great leader should. It wasn't easy, and it destroyed a part of himself to do it. But it was for the greater benefit of his whole kingdom. Uther and Jaina are cowards in this instance and forsake their friend, lover and student while also putting the kingdom at dire risk.
From what we learn during wc3, the moment you break the houses the civs start truning. so it was either kill all in the city or let everyone or almost everyone become a hostile undead solider. the damage a entire citys worth of undead could have caused is prob huge. the undead might have been abel to overrun any quarantine. Regaridng the kirin-tors barrier i belive that arthas didn't know about it and therefor didn't consider it an option, and maybe the barrier was only invented after he jonied the undead, we do not know.
i belive that he took the neccesary call given his options, and his belief that he had a limited amount of time. it was not good but it was neccesary. sorry for bad grammer
My wife and I argue about this ALL the time, lol! She is very much on the mindset that what Arthus did was correct and an unavoidable tragedy, that if the plague were to spread from the village it could have had unrepairable repercussions. IIIII think that he could have EASILY quarantined the city with his army, let those capable of escaping do so and filted out the health, guaranteeing the sick till their eventual death.
I think the problem here is that you misunderstand how the living would just easily escape the clutches of the undead. Imagine if your wife turned into a zombie and started trying to kill you, what would you do, run or defend? Or better/worse yet, what if you turned into a mindless zombie, and started trying to kill her instead? Would you rather be put down before you could even have a chance of becoming a zombie, or give your loved ones a miniscule chance of escaping, even if they later on turned into zombies regardless? There is no easy choice, and while a quarantine would have kept the paladin’s mind and hands clean, the city as a whole would experience a nightmare of unbelievable levels. On top of that, it would be difficult to keep the the undead in place while everyone waited for the Kirin Tor’s special magic bubble, and still would have not done anything against Mal’Ganis himself, who’s main objective was to convince the Prince to lead an assault to Northrend and to Frostmourne.
Yes, I do see it as possible as follows:
- Arthus does not purge Stratholme.
- The rapid fall of EPL and rapid corruption of any troll in the area plus any elf & human settlement that is not fortified or has spells set to protect.
- With no Arthus level champion (Kel'Thuzad is still dead) on the scourge side, the elves (Sylvanas+Nathanos+etc) would hold the front on their end.
- A big war in WPL, with Scholomance on the scourge side and Hearthglen and Andorhal on the Lordaeron and respectively Alterac sides. Tirisfal would be invaded, but Arthas and Jaina would hold the line.
- By the the time Dalaran develops the anti-undead aura and applies it, the scourge finds the "secret" path into the Hinterlands where it corrupts more trolls. At this point the Horde may join the war so to protect the horde (troll) town on the coast (it's a maybe because trolls & orcs didn't yet meet as friends, but still the enemy of my enemy+enemy is still my friend). At least 1/3 of the dwarfs would join the war to protect Aerie Peak.
- At worst, the scourge would be held in place and slowly beaten. In this case the north part of the eastern kingdoms would be drained of warriors and sue for peace with Thrall's horde, allowing them to settle in the area. Northrend would still be held by a less dominant scourge. ShadowFang Keep would be a scourge secret base with Arugal trying to play both sides, but Ner'Zhul keeping track of this.
- At best, reinforcements arrive from Stromwind, (maybe) Gilneas, Kul'Tiras, Ironforge for the alliance, and Blackrock Mountain for the horde. The elves would link up with Dalaran and apply the anti-undead aura just about everywhere. The scourge would be handled with ease. Ner'Zhul would reinforce Arugal in order to maybe revive Kel'Thuzad as a secondary objective, and as primary objective created more undead so to make the mages maintain the anti-undead aura indefinitely. Because of this, the Lich King would have a big boost in targeting more Burning Legion to arrive/summon on Azeroth, probably at SFK. In the meantime it's either peace or war for Horde-vs-Alliance. If peace then maybe they will commit all forces to Northrend against undead trolls, nerubians, vrykul etc; If war then mostly decimate each other in northern eastern kingdoms. Either way there would be no major force to hold the line against Burning Legion demons pouring forth from ShadowFang Keep.
World of Warcraft would still be a go.... but sadly with no Forsaken or undead Sylvanas to lead them :(
I feel like a lot of this comments seem to forget the fate of stratholme. It ended up being a stronghold for the scourge anyway….
I don't really get what part of the culling of Stratholme was necessary - surely all Arthas needed to do was wait until the citizens began to turn, and then kill them when they had lost control. That way, even Uther and Jaina would have stood with him, and the guilt of killing these people would have been mitigated.
The beauty of the vagueness of old Warcraft storytelling (as in WC3 and WoW Vanilla era) was that Blizzard stayed far away enough from the detailed psychology of the characters to not fuck it up. When Arthas did these things, we only see it from the outside and have no idea what's actually happening inside his head. And so when he culls an entire city, or when he kills his own father, there is a degree of uncertainty on our part if he is being *MADE* to do this by an external force (as later elaborations seem to suggest), or if he is doing this of his own accord.
One of the things I always found compelling about the Lich King's story was the possible interpretation that Arthas did everything out of a growing -- not decreasing -- conscious awareness of the way things are. And that when he chooses to unite with Ner'zhul, that it was because he has come to realize that life is conflict, and selfish, and will always yield suffering; and that only in death can beings shed their biases and transcend themselves and submit to a unity that is pure enough to unite a human (Arthas) and an Orc (Ner'zhul), the two most bitter-rivaled races on Azeroth. And for us to be going against someone who might be right, in essence meaning that we might be wrong? THAT was the true horror of the Lich King.
he couldn't afford the respec to Holy
No one could back then, god damn Classic taxes!
Once Stratholm was infected, it was doomed.
I just realized that along with Bliz crafting a good story and us discussing the lore, that in some cases we are talking about what are sometimes difficult/harsh ethical and moral decisions in the context of a story.
Short answer: no
Long answer: The city must be purged
If we had never went to Northrend, there would've been no one to stop Yogg. Arthas made the right choice in the grand scheme of things.
There are tons of other reasons to go there.
All the Keeper stuff as an example.
That doesn't make Arthas' choice good, just coinciding with events years after.
Thats just lazy writing by blizzard. There is no reason to assume that ppl wouldnt of found out about yog eventually or that someone else wouldnt of dealt with it.
Great video Nobbel! I think Arthas wanted to do the right thing obviously, but he just made the wrong choice on how to do it. Culling the citizens aside from it being slaughter took a major toll on his psyche, and his soul. From there on, his commitment to stopping Mal'Ganis was all that mattered to him and leading him to Frostmourn. Whereas if he considered an alternate route like a quarantine, maybe events would have been different. As fun as it is to speculate though, Chronicles makes it clear, all the necessary parameters to Arthas' fall were in place, it was inevitable.
Arthus made a hard choice of choosong the many over the few. It was a hard choice that every king dreads to make. So his purging of Stratholme was needed even if others disagreed.
The mistake Arthus made was that he fled rather than accept the fall out from his actions.
One second of Cranius's "Darrowshire" song @ 11:21 and this video rates a second thumbs-up. :-)
You have the coolest youtube channel in the whole world :)
5:08-6:05 where is this scene from plz
Arthas doubted himself and thats why he felt guilt when he purged the city. if he hadn't he wouldn't have been corrupted by evil
Thanks for this man, I am on day 2 of farming Rivendare's death charger over and over and over and over and over and over all day until I get it.
Arthas acted with the information he had on hand while also being slowly infuenced by Mal'ganis and Ner'zhul.
Hindsight is 20/20, and we know that the Kirin Tor were able to erect that barrier, just like Jaina had hoped.
The problem still remained though.
IF they had tried to just quarantine the city, someone would have inevitably escaped and spread the plague further.
Arthas delayed the inevitable. Had he chosen to let Jaina go to the Kirin Tor and stay with his paladin mentor, the plague would have spread by different means and maybe even faster than the current history.
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But that is just my opinion on that.
Have fun.
I like to think that the Kirin Tor ignored the undead until big events like the Fall of Lorderon happened (they thought it wouldn't be a threat), which later incentivized them to create magics against them. But Lorderon occurred after the Culling of Stratholme, so every citizen would've been converted or dead by the time the magi created the anti-undead barrier.
I think on the future we will run into him again but since he’s free we will somehow bring him back from the shadow lands . I also think the 4 horsemen of the lich King will be matched when the equivalent of the light raising Tirion , Uther, and some others will have a huge grudge match and we will have to side somehow as the factions are somewhat working together loosely again .
He could have locked them up and waited to see which houses turned and which didn't till the Kirin tor arrived.
Arthas did absolutely nothing wrong. Purging Stratholme was the right decision. Would you rather die instantly or slowly, knowing that you're eventually going to turn and kill your loved ones as a zombie? Even when taking Frostmourne, he was expecting it to curse him and only affect himself, so he was literally taking one for the team the entire time. After picking it up, his will wasn't his own, therefore HE didn't do bad, he did everything he could to protect his people.
Usually the answer lies somewhere in the middle between the two extremes.
Not taking action or purging the whole city? Maybe if they had put the whole city under quarantine, while waiting for the Kirin Tor, things would've turned out differently. At the same time Arthas and his men should be supplying the city with uncorrupted water and food, to make sure that not another sould would be infected. Maybe even place some guards (or even himself together with Jaina) inside the city to deal with those, who actually turned into the undead.
Lordaeron was doomed to begin with since they didn't heed Medivh warning.
"The warning has been given their fates are now their own."
Noble88 I am still wondering what games are you playing to follow this path I see Wow online but the others I do not know and like to play them. Can you tell me what they are are they old version of warcraft 1 and 2?
So what is the Moonglaive on Nobbels Shoulder / Back at the 10 Minute Mark? Didnt play for a While.. =)
Did Arthas do the right thing? That's a hard question....on the one hand could have just quarantined the city...though that would have left the uninfected people to be ripped apart once the infected turned and then plenty of Scourge inside a fortified city....on the other hand going in and killing everyone before they turned would keep them from becoming Scourge, but you'd be asking your soldiers to slaughter their own people.
Particularly nasty game masters in tabletop role play games love doing this. It is what is called the sadistic choice. Those who uphold good ideals and good morals get left with a pair of choices like that. I personally would have stopped trade of the grain. I would have been made aware of the grain being infected, so I would do what I could to stop trade of all grain and have it all tested. Then I'd step up security all over. But if I was left with this scenario, the lesser of two evils I would be left no choice but to commit, is to quarantine the city. And I'd repent for every soul lost to the Scourge.
Well problem is that if they locked down the city there was still mal'ganis and that makes me think that arthas did one of two choices he could and it was a choice to help his kingdom fend off undead nightmare quick.
@ It wasn't so much that he had to choose between killing those who have yet to die or be infected. Its that he came to the decision so quickly without weighing the risk of what it would do to him. Not only was he quick to condemn the innocent to death, he didn't even repent. It definitely would have been the much lesser evil to wait out the spread, then destroy the undead within. But even that in of itself would have hosted a new problem. He knows Mal'Ganis was behind it, and it would have been harder to get to him if he waited for the whole town to turn.
@ Also, it was indeed his obsession that damned him. Becoming so obsessed with avenging his people, to the point of barring any of his men from going home.
@@GRIMHOOD99 Mal'Ganis definitely would have taken advantage of the quarantine and made Stratholme into his personal fortress. Sucks too, because if he wasn't behind the vast majority of that crisis, the quarantine option would have been the best bet.
Very nice timing for those grinding out preraid BiS for classic!!!
If Arthas hadn’t been so overzealous in his decision making and so reckless in his command it would have definitely allowed the alliance to band together and the hold the line to fight for the cities survival. The path Arthas decided to take immediately splintered the Alliance leaders one whether to come to the aid to the Kingdom of Lorderon and their lack of action ultimately lead to its downfall.
Do you have a classic wow lore playlist ? Thanks again always a pleasure!!
Is Mal'Ganis's presence in the Culling canon? Was he collecting victims of the Scourge while Arthas was purging the city as portrayed in the mission in Warcraft III? It always seemed the right choice to purge Stratholme because Mal'Ganis was present doing his thing, but if it was a one sided purge from Arthas it's a different story.
"Chase me like one of your Lordaeronian Girls" - Mal'ganis.
I don't believe it could have been played out in any other way. But I certainly would like to see a "what if" scenario with the Kirin Tor barrier idea, to see if the plague would get out or not
I think there is always another option, but with time travel being a thing and the benefit of knowing what comes to pass and being able to play it out in the best way possible, there is only one way it can go down. That's the trouble with introducing time travel into a story, it can entirely invalidate the conversations that happen in the moment as useless.
The Culling of Stratholme was no easy choice, but it was the only option at the time. Arthas' only mistake was going after Mal'ganis, which ultimately sealed his fate. Lordearon was doomed the moment the plague was created. The Culling of Stratholme only postponed it. And even if Arthas hadn't turned evil, Ner'zhul would have found another champion.
The question of the Light's reaction is sticky. Benedictus could use the light by his willpower while also using shadow and serving the Void. But Liadrin was unable to use the Light for healing at Silvermoon due to shaken faith and a loss of concentration. It could've gone out because after Uther and Jaina leave him, he doesn't actually feel worthy to wield the Light, is doubting himself, and in the horror of what he's doing is also doubting the Light. And who could blame him? It dimly lights the hammer again when he tries to get to Malganis at the end of that same chapter, so it hasn't completely abandoned him in that moment.
The fact that it's part of "The one true timeline" fits with the Light's take on there being "Only one truth" philosophy (Though the first might be more of a Titan thing, just to make this even more complicated?). But that makes it the "right" choice.
What gets me is that Uther tells Jaina before: "But sometimes the only decision is which is the lesser evil. Sometimes there's no way to fix everything . Arthas is learning that." She says she won't let him go alone, and then they both just leave. While the Kirin Tor eventually came up with something Stratholme was already done and would have played out the way Arthas said it would. The only better option would've been Jaina fire bombing the city while everyone slept.
Dude getting burned to death is painfull. But i guess it would be more sterile afterwards
@@King.Leonidas The key part is if it happened while they were sleeping, there's a good chance they wouldn't know. Vs having their chests and skulls smashed in by people who are supposed to protect them. It is also really terrible though, there is no good answer in this scenario.
I think he made the tough call but also that he rushed it...that is to say he chose the simplest root without exploring all his options which demonstrates the ruthlessness that would ultimately bring him to his destruction
Stratholm: Pit of Sauron of Vanilla. Of course, With Arthas's level of education, Arthas's decision to purge the city was the best salutation because it was the knly salutiin as they didnt know if undeath was spread like the curse of the Wargen or otherwise.
Woth Mal'ganis's main base in Northrend, it was a one time opportunity to stop rhe scourge where it stood, or be washed under it. Unfortunately, Arthas and Lordaeron were indeed washed under the Scourge; they just weren't prepared.
If Arthas didn't intent to hunt Mal'Ganis in the end of the culling of Stratholme, the outcome would br good choice, because the next move is to cleanse Lordaeron from the Cult of The Damned member and their operations, also they probably can joining with the Horde and the Sentinel at the battle of Mount Hjall.
The purge become a meaningless choice because in the later Arthas undone what's he supposed to do to save his people.
Situationally the purge only one of many logical choice, just less methodical and ethically questionable, but it's effective action to do in this desperate time.
@Thelondonbadger we could makes argument about the important role of Lich King, or even about the use of LK's power and his minions as a mean to greater good for Azeroth in the grand scheme of things. But ultimately, being an undead isn't worth the price for that, since if you had been slain as an undead during the battle agains Old God's forces, your soul would damned for eternity as what is happened to Sylvanas, she's know the true fate of undead being. You may delay the doom of the world, but ironically you can't save your self forever.
I really dont see an out for Arthas, if we go by WC3 the entire city was infected AND you have undead roaming and rampaging through the streets with a dreadlord at the helm, you don't have time or manpower for a quarantine. The Kirin Tor had a good amount of time to prepare before the undead avalanche crashed into their city, even if that wasn't a factor the time it would take to go there and back could put the entire operation and region at risk. Maybe if Uther or at least Jaina stayed with him to keep him anchored to who he was things may be different, he needed a guiding hand or comfort now more than ever despite the circumstances.
Hey, just kinda curious which quest / expansion is 5:45 from? Started Classic recently so not as well versed in quest progression as I am with Wc3.
That's the Culling of Stratholme dungeon from wotlk
Arthas was put in an unimaginably terrible situation, and while his pride and duty as Prince played a role in his slipping, I'd say Jaina and Uther abandoning him played a bigger one.
It was either nixxiom or hirdusw/e x did a what if and basically same thing would've happened eventually if they had quarantined instead.
Yeah nixxiom
Is just speculation
honestly i was always concerned with why uther didn't try to stop arthus from murdering a city of people instead he just left perhaps uther knew arthus was right and didnt want to see it for himself
To be fair, Arthas was right when he said they would eventually turn. They even turned mid mission. So no, he did nothing wrong until he picked up frostmourne
not picked up frostmourne but when he burned the ships and blamed the mercenaries.
@@rerako4755 oh yeah, he lost his shit after Stratholme.
I think that this situation didn't have a good solution. As you can see during the mission, people of Stratholme already started turning into undead. If Arthas would decide to not purge the city, all the turned would kill the living anyway before any other plan could be even discussed. So it's understandable, but I'm not sure if I would decide the same, I probably couldn't just like Jaina.
Arthas was stuck between a rock and a hard place. I think purging Stratholme was the right decision, considering how many people were infected and going to turn but rushing to Northrend was a trap and Arthas fell into it.
It's less about "Was Arthas right or wrong?", the issue is that on that day Arthas fell. He fell far before he wielded Frostmourne, that was just the last nail in the coffin and the proof of his damnation. Whatever the fate of Lordaeron, a Prince and even more a Paladin of the Holy Light wouldn't have done what Arthas did.
Arthas did what was necessery . . . Quick death or one more city to join growing undead legions. . . . But also his first step on becoming the Lich King in future . . . Best written charachter in wow universe
Frankly I don't really see where the uncertainty is. Doesn't the fact that the light abandoned him indicate that he made the morally wrong choice, narratively speaking? Never mind that anyone with a great school grasp of morality can tell it was the bad.
Arthas was the worst boy before he even picked up the cursey sword.
Not exactly. The light abandoned Arthas h because of his feelinga regarding the culling. The light is mostly fueled by conviction, has seen by the paladins from the Scarlet Crusade. They did morally despistable stuff, but their conviction made using the light possible.
@@HazelVandice but arthas was still a good guy right or?
I remember around 7 years ago, i was playing Wow and i was wondering what happened with balnazzar. Since he was one of my favorite when i was playing W3. And that was still mystery to me, i didn't knew if he is even in wow or not. One day i was doing stratholme, and i saw some paladin with allot of hp. I was like, okey so this is kinda underwhelming for a boss, but oke. And than on half hp hude Dread lord pops up, and when i read his name.... I was literally stunned by finding my favorite W3 character hidden in straholme.
What if all this time the infinite dragonflight have been trying to create alternate time lines like WOD to prepare an army for us to combat the void.
Like a army of humans, elves dwarves and gnomes that never had to deal with the Horde invasion. And a horde that was never corrupted by demons and Night elves that where never hurt by the sundering. And we have been fighting them and stopping us from having a prepared army to fight N’Zoth
Arthas didn't make the most reasonable choice at that moment. He made a choice out of fear and first hand experience with the undead forces (the previous campaign mission start with the town turning in front of him). He decided that the death of the citizen of Stratholme was worth saving the rest of lodearon without consulting others with more influence (his father as the king could just quarantine the city and other places where the grain went, the kirin tor could find a way to fight the curse).
In the end the lich king wanted to put arthas in this position a place where he would fight based on personal attachment and instinct.
Arthas was a pawn of forces way beyond his control. Or rather, one force: The Lich King. As Kel'Thuzad would say later: "He chose you to be his champion long before the Scourge even began."
Source: wow.gamepedia.com/The_Revelation_(WC3_Undead)
There is a wonderful made campaign on Thrall and his story whilst captured in wc3 custom campaign.
what toy was that to make your DH look human for that long? i did not see any count down buffs
Cupcake Crusade when you do culling of stratholme you turn into human if your a not a dwarf or human to begin with
When you go to a Caverns of time dungeon/raid, and your race wasn't present at that time it will turn you into a race that was, for example, Night Elves and Pandaren.
It's part of the quest itself, so the heroes don't stand out in the past from the forces that Arthas had with him during the purge of Stratholme.
Solid video man , hard call but the purge was needed . They did wrong by sitting out that dance to remain as neutral as possible .
Unpopular opinion, but Arthas made a mistake.
He didn't send out scout parties, didn't investigate how wide the plague has spread, didn't at least think of alternatives, instead he just dived head first into a brute force option. Even if the plague was on the brink of outburst (which it wasn't, there were human survivors of the purge), he could at least organize a strict quarantine with Uther and send Jaina to Dalaran and look for help. The plague was a result of magic, it was worth looking into and searching for solutions. The culling might have temporarily stopped the spread of the plague, but it also sent out the message that the future ruler was willing to sacrifice anyone, pay any price, and bend any rule to defeat the plague - if you were a citizen of Lordaeron, how would you feel about it?
Then again, if he did all these, he would not be the Arthas we know, the champion chosen by the Lich King. So his downfall was destined, by himself.
Stratholme was doomed. Maybe, if they had prevented the spread of the infected grain earlier, most of the damage could've been prevented. By the time Arthas figured out the city was infected, they had maybe hours to do something. Nowhere near enough time for the Kirin Tor to do anything about it. With all that said, their best course of action would've been to destroy the bridge and barricade the remaining exits around the city to prevent any undead from leaving later.
The best Arthus could have done was quarantine the city and pretty much watch the city turn on itself. With a majority of the citizen infected, they would have eventually broken the quarantine zone. The biggest issue was Mal Ganis. In WC3, he was actively gathering the converted citizens. Arthus could stop him and wait for Uther and Jaina to bring reinforcements, but Mal Ganis would have probably gathered enough undead to force Arthus to retreat. Mal Ganis would follow up by commit worst atrocities to goad Arthus to go to Northrend. One way or another, Lordareon would have collapsed under the weight of the plague and undead. And playing Azeroth wars taught me anything, lich King doom drops will eventually come and mop up a weakened alliance team.
Unfortunately Strathome was already lost. Arthas could have waited to see who was abs wasn't infected but then how meant would they have had to fight and how many uninfected citizens would have been killed by the now undead. It was an unfortunate choice and a brutal one but probably the best one away the time, for the sake of all of Lorderon.
Nobbel87. I hade an argument with a friend discussing WoW lore. He is convinced that Varien is the best Varrior in the game. And I’m convinced it’s Saurfang.
That lead me to and idea. Can’t you make a video talking about different characters in WoW of every class in the game and discus from a lore perspective who is the best of the best when it comes to that class?