The end of the motorcycle industry as we know it
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 17 ก.ย. 2024
- How times are changing within the motorcycle manufacturing sector! Back in the day the UK had a thriving business along with Harley Davidson in the USA. This was followed by the Japanese and Italians. The same cannot be said for todays market.
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I’m still a bit sceptical about Chinese bikes. A friend of mine bought a new Lifan 400 cruiser 12 years ago. A year later he couldn’t even get spares for it. They’d stop making them and I think Chinese manufacturers seem to come and go just as often with poor after sales and parts availability whereas you can still get parts for old Japanese and British bikes. Personally I will wait and see how the CFMOTO COVE and VOGE bikes fare in a 2-3 years time and if parts for them are still available.
kove already replaced 500x with 510x. who knows what part the 500x owners won't be able to buy
Its the same with chinese cars.
I can't speak to the others, but CFMoto were China's biggest bike maker before they opened up their economy. They're exporting nearly a million bikes a year now, nearly as many as Suzuki. I'm Australian. There's no problems here getting CFMoto parts and accessories. And bikes like the 450MT still have waiting lists. I've seen a couple, and while they look good, they're HUGE. They look like 800's, which kind of defeats the purpose of being a middleweight to me.
@@tsubadaikhan6332 Kinda shame we don't have any 450 dual sports around. like, DRZ400 isn't emission-legal in EU (cmon Suzuki, fix it), and rest of the 450 class are pretty much race bikes with low maintenance intervals. I just want a bit bigger (but still light) CRF300L, not a smaller Tenere.
Motorcycles have got way too expensive, cheaper bikes are the way to go if we want motorcycling to survive.
Hardly anyone talks about it or knows it. The Japanese copied almost all their motorcycle models in the 60s from the Germans or English! Some examples: NSU Lux or NSU Max Honda S 90 and other models ----Victoria V-Engine Honda CX 500 --- Adler 250 Yamaha RD 250 (2 stroke) There is also a Cross BSA which was almost 1:1 the Yamaha xt 500, to name just a few examples. As for KTM, yes, in my eyes it was a premium brand but today many models have problems with worn-in camshafts. Incidentally, KTM has its products manufactured by CF Moto. I belong to the generation that does the servicing of motorcycles themselves, which is almost impossible these days with over-electrified bikes! And I am not prepared to pay around 500 euros for a service. I have had 21 motorcycles and have built many completely new ones, which is no longer possible with today's high-end motorcycles. Look at the prices for GS motorcycles, if they are older than 12 years old you get them thrown at you, which is why they are total economic losses.
But hey, most people just don't like tinkering and repairing and prefer to buy the motorcycles that are currently a hype. Some of my friends have expensive premium bikes but ride less than 2000 km a year and take them in for service every year but then complain about the prices and sell them after 6-8 years. All I can say is an expensive pleasure. Today we only had 7 degrees but I rode 140 km on my motorcycle and it was wonderful and it strengthens my immune system! My 50 cents on this topic! I can only advise everyone: if you want to show off, buy a heavy, over-powered premium brand or if you want to have fun and travel cheaply, buy something light and good quality at an affordable price!
yup...no one seems to understand the japanese did the same dirty tricks the chineese do today.
Well researched and presented pal hope you don’t get some of the flack I did for pointing out these realities….I was at a Moto GB dealership today reviewing a Voge…..a year ago people were saying that Moto GB had made a tactical error in hosting all the Chinese brands (CF Moto, Voge, Moto Morini, Benelli, Kove etc) when in reality it seems to me that they’ve “read the runes” and made a very smart strategic decision….being ahead of the curve is everything in this game…keep up the good work pal 👍🏻
Cheers. Must admit I am tempted by some of those you mention
@@thebingleywheeler the only problem as I see it is all these people who buy them only tell you the pros nobody tells you the cons no bike is perfect but watching these reviews you would be forgiven for thinking they were a perfect bike
👍
@@thepipesmokingbeekeeper8917 . Most ' reviewers ' are just a mouthpiece for the company .
They only want to make income from TH-cam and will say anything to keep the test bike supply coming.
If you've watched one , you've watched them all . With rare exceptions of course .
Wasnt Moto GB also the first dealer for Royal Enfield before RE started their own partnerships?
That Bullet of yours just looks fucking awesome😅
Cheers 👍
Look how great it looks without that bulky radiator up front !
@@johnharris7353 eh?
I was able to have a go on the 450mt, I really liked it. In fact I tried to buy one but wasn’t prepared to wait 6 month at the time.
My main worry would be the parts availability and also the re sale value when you come to pass it on.
Just a small correction.. the Triumph 400 line is made in India by Bajaj, not in Thailand.
Yes most are made in India but I did hear that some will be made in Thailand and Brazil.
@@iantoy7778 I believe that is the case , I watched a video of a guy in Thailand who said the bike was locally manufactured.
@@iantoy7778 to clear some confusion, thailand built triumph are sold for thailand, don't know about brazil but I assume it's the same, reason is because thailand has around 300% import tax, so companies are forced to open a manufacturing plant on thailand to be exempted from said tax... ❤
A friend of mine had a bike shop in Duns. He was also a very good bike mechanic. We’re now talking about 7 yrs ago I’ve been in Bulgaria for 5 yrs. He had Chinese retro bikes in his show room. He swore by them. Two yr warranty when you bought. He sold them for years. Never a problem
Brilliant and fascinating presentation. No annoying music, boring footage of endless roads and daft camera tricks. Not watched you before but I'll be working through your other films now.
Thanks
China is an enormous Market. There's over a billion of them. But if you wanted to build a factory in China, to access their Market and cheap Labour, you had to have a 50% Chinese Partner. Been that way for 30 years. We willingly taught China everything they needed to know about modern manufacturing. Now their 50% automobile 'Partners' are building EV's under their own Brand Name, and ditching their Western Partners. The Western CEO's that could not see this coming should be forever ashamed. Instead, they always got their quarterly bonuses....
Hi Ian
The problem with the Ktm cams is a oil supply problem the oil ways feeding the cam is not line up the holes only meet up by 20% so that’s why there lake of oil to the cams
Hello Ian, i think you are right. Here in Italy already chinese are at the top of the selling charts. Benelli, once an Italian firm has sold thousands of small adventures in the few past years, they costed about 6k euros. Qj, that is the owner of the Benelli name, has just started selling another bike that looks even better that the Benelli trk502 and is even cheaper, only 5600 euros. I think european brands have sold out their future for the sake of temporary profit. KTM has suicided herself. IN 10 years i think 90% of the market will be in chinese hands unless something big happens. Japanese look like they are not interested anymore in innovation or in incrementing their sales in europe, maybe they count on their asian and 3rd world market, i dunno. It's really sad tbh...
i think plan is to bancrupt KTM, then CFMOTO takes rest of the shares, technology etc.
I have a 2023 Himalayan, and I love that bike, it wont be leaving my shed ever( it's going to be given to my grandson). I do like the CFMoto450, but would not have bought it at the time, because all I wanted was a tractor, and the himi was just that. I can see the Chinese bikes putting Royal Enfield out of business especially in the adv field, if RE isn't on the ball with what the public wants. I don't like 450 Himi, maybe had they gone with a twin, might have been different, but aircooled, and old school is what I have always had.
I think lotto time I would buy a KLR650, as had a liking for them since they came out, and they can tour quite well. I do agree with you though that the Chinese contingent will put massive pressure on all the other makers, and will see some of them go out of business. Reliability longterm will be the telling of the Chinese bikes.
There is only 1 brand that can , and will be able to, compete with these Chinese motorcycle brands in the short and in the long term: Royal Enfield. They listen to the customer and make what the customer wants. Royal Enfield's quality is only improving over time, they are increasing their dealer-network, and have improved their spare part availability. I agree with you regarding the other brands. The Europeans will be gone or taken over (like e.g. Benelli), the Japanese brands will still be there in 20-30 years but perhaps only making outboard engines and snowmobiles, and Harley will have been limited to T-shirt designs only.
Wouldn't buy anything from a country that swamps our communication systems with scams.
as of today only the top end bikes are made in japan, my 125 suzuki ( 2004 ) is made in spain, japanese brands like everyone else produce huge numbers of bikes abraod, they just lie about it with massaged figures
Frankly the established brands got a bit *too* comfortable.
We've seen bullshit like limiting features that are insanely cheap to implement (once you have riding modes) like cruise control to top end models because if someone is too poor to afford Africa Twin they don't deserve for their hand to not hurt on long trips.
I have a Honda scooter, and was quite surprise to find that is actually made in Italy.
Apart from my old 2007 BMWf650gs that i bought in UK in 2019 and rode it out to Kosovo where i live, i bought in 2016 a new Suzuki Vitara 4x4, a Japanese car? built in Hungary with a Fiat diesel engine so not just bikes that are made elsewhere.
Very true. It's just about everything these days.
@@iantoy7778 Had to watch this again as my interest was taken by that 500 behind you.🤣🤣
I am 72yrs old and wanted a small run around bike. I researched all available bikes. I settled on a CF Moto 300nk. £3500, 28bhp, 85mph, 2modes. Perfect daily rider, I am delighted with my purchase. 70 mph cruise if required. Nothing to dislike.
Nice one!
The Honda CB300R is £4k on offer with £300 for 3 services and better intervals and resale. Why would anyone get a CF Moto 300NK when Honda is better in every respect?
I have very similar thoughts for a while. Exactly how you said it about the Japanese.. Don't think that the Chinese will be involved in 'the conflict' .. The Euro standards does not help as well.. It's pushing specially the big machines to the edge .. They can't run just on air. The future plans for EU petrol ICE vehicles ban 15 years down the line does not help either. I'm getting an Enfield, don't know about the others.
Which Enfield have you decided on? Will you be at the Sofia One Ride Event on September 22nd?
It's new sales after 2035. I'm not sure what actually happens in 2050 don't think they do either but everything will be at 15 years old by then so not the age most people hold onto vehicles. Usually my cars die by then and I'm not that sad. I got 16 years out of my ford focus in the end it was. Clutch a fractured spring and a wheel bearing and I sold it spares or repair. I'm going to be 70 by 2050. I think also to me the new Can-Am electric bike would actually work for me. And I'm already driving an EV car and wondering what the future is for my old diesel car. It's £5.83 to drive the EV where the diesel would cost me £20 for the same journey.
@@iantoy7778 Hello Ian.. Short answer is - I will not be at the one ride and have not chosen the bike yet.. Long answer - it depends .. You know the roads, specially around and in Sofia and around city on the old streets/roads is terrible .. So my perfect choice will be 2nd hand Himmy 411 or new 450, because the are complete bikes with everything I need.. or Scram 411 .. The scram 411 is without rear rack and central stand.. So, it will be more money for this things. Otherwise the Hunter is fitting me the best as seating position goes, and will be perfect for the city and cast wheels are better for ease of use and punctures.. But again - no rear rack and more sporty road suspension for 'the roads' .. So, it's clutch decision. Waiting a bit for 2nd hand almost new Himmy 411 but not in the blue colour.
Sorry for the long comment.
I had an experience some time back (almost 20 years ago sort of thing) with a Chinese folding bike, a kind of Brompton knock off. I'd just had a knee reconstructed, so I bought it just to work the leg and ride around the local park, it was pretty cheap. But yeah, it was total crap, it couldn't even do a lap of the park without something coming loose or falling off. I contemplated throwing it in the Thames, but figured there was probably a law against that, so sold it to a junk dealer for about £20. Now is different, even if you bike is made elsewhere, most of the parts are probably made in China anyway. They have definitely arrived. Hopefully Royal Enfield will remain competitive, think they have a great niche with their Classics and Himalayans etc.
You might save 3k up front buying a Chinese bike but you'll lose that and maybe more if you ever come to try and sell it.
Very true
For me the designs on the Chinese bikes are not quite there yet. However I’d look at a Chinese bike that looks like an old 60s Bonnie or xs650.
Had an XS650 back in the day.
@@iantoy7778 would you say they were the best British bike not made by the British?
@@mattdog1982
Great engine but they put 2 stroke ratios in the gearbox . Heavy too .
Good strong bike .
There is no question the Chinese have upped the quality of the bikes they market to the world. Those opposed to buying Chinese bikes have valid points. Another issue I think we’re going to see is “dumping” bikes at prices nearly at or below production costs. CF Moto is selling the 800 ADV bike in the US at about $10,700. Today, our dealer announced a price drop of over $2500. Apparently the KTM debacle is having a carry on effect on CF Moto. How many non-Chinese manufacturers can afford to reduce a bike by 25%? Not many, I would think. It’s not good for owners, but new buyers will be pleased. Not a good way to treat your owners. Sounds like KTM all over.
#1 problem with Chinese bikes is the makers are not interested in supplying spare parts. Only selling new ones.
That is the problem!
Good points well made
👊👍😊
Cheers
Chinese are getting better, however the aftermarket is basically non-existent. I was looking at some of the Voge bikes, they are made by Loncin, one of the biggest chinese engine manufacturers. However i can't even find a single aftermarket brand who makes shocks and springs for the 300ds for example (even though they had been around for quite a few years, so you would assume there is at least something by now). Even exhaust.. ..Ixil is the only named brand.
It’s interesting to see the Chinese beating the Japanese at their own game, and they must have confidence in their products because they offer great warranties with their bikes. I think CF Moto offer a 4 year warranty, most, if not all Japanese brands offer 12 months. I read that Royal Enfield offer a worldwide warranty, so if you buy your bike in UK, have it serviced by the RE dealer, then go on a world trip, if something goes wrong with it in Bangladesh, the RE dealer there will fix the bike under warranty. Who else does that? The market has moved strides forward, and the big 4 - Honda, Yamaha, Kawasaki, and Suzuki are being left behind.
I won't be buying a Chinese bike for several reasons .
I don't like the idea of supplying foreign currency to a corrupt regime . The people that build these bikes are semi slaves doing long hours and live in work camps .
Thailand is a manufacturing base for at least one bike manufacturer , but it's a world of difference from China.
The Chinese way is to copy , cut corners , cheat and ignore safety procedures .
If I won't put a Chinese bearing in my bikes because of lousy quality issues , why would I ride a bike made of such crap?
And I like to think I am supporting skilled workers closer to home .
The popularity of Chinese bikes right now is due to paid ' influencers' and cheap price . Nothing about reliability, resale value, dealer network, parts availability etc .
Canada has started sanctions against China and if Trump is elected , I expect the USA will follow. Putin has developed close trading links with China , so maybe China will look there for it's trade .
Who knows , politics is a nasty game .
But my final reason for not buying a Chinese bike is I like to feel proud of the name on the tank and it's heritage .
Well said. I don’t doubt they will get better and better in quality and are already using well known brands such as Showa on their bikes but like you I won’t knowingly support a country that is a trading partner with putin.
@@jonathanmellish4439 . I have a couple of relatives who have overseen the manufacture of goods in China for European sales. Their stories of cheating and cutting corners in every aspect of manufacture are quite eye opening . It makes you wonder if the Showa , KYB that you see is really that ,or a Chinese knock off .
Where all semi slaves in this world just some screw you up front . And other countries just let you think you are but thats changing .
And India continued to buy Russian oil and food crops after they invaded Ukraine and all the Western countries banned Russian exports, so we should boycott Royal Enfield as well then?
@@peakrider4886 you certainly make a valid point and the answer should be yes.
im not a simp royal enfields but.... i think there on to something... producing accessible simple and biker friendly reliable machines.... like ADV beginner series... Himalayan its accessible. the 650cc twins those are way bang for you buck..... That standard type of MC aesthetically you wont grow old with it....if you did... its an easy custom.. accessible and reliable.........now a days... the top 4 japanese are just so expensive and not so simple a bit a intimidating
the 450 cf moto...is good im just not sold to the fuel consuption.....its crazy for 450
Agree it's fuel consumption is poor compared to others in it's class
the waiting lists are a standard sales ploy - they built so many and the lack therefore creates its own massive promo campaign, some may think this is bullshit but it is a sales ploy used for decades - once 25k of them are sold we shall see if there is a waiting list - my bet is there will not be. Good bikes and all are happy with them but we should not poo poo yamaha ktm etc for not having wait lists - actually ktm do, go try buy a 690 - ktm do this with them, they only make so many so the price never drops because demand is high......Now, the CF , RE etc are definitely here to stay and they are shaking things up - it is great but we should keep measure of reality - fwiw my next bike is the kove450 to it alongside my ktm 500 exc 🙂
Bought my first Chinese bike in 2007, a Lifan dual sport with a 200cc Honda CG clone engine. Rode it 53000 miles with no problems. This is in the US BTW. Also have a Chinese quad with a CG type engine that has many hundreds of hours with no problems. Now have a Chinese scooter with a Lifan 170cc GY6 EFI engine. No issues.
The problem with Chinese anything is not just that it is junk, but it is communist junk, made by an enemy of the western world. My first street bike was a Suzuki GT380. From there I bought a brand new 1980 Suzuki GS450L. I put over 40,000 miles on that bike, mostly highway. Never had a problem. Motorcycles were built right back then. I have since owned over 40 bikes. ALL of them carbureted. I currently own 5 motorcycles, ALL carbureted. Two of them have pushrod engines. A 2002 Harley Sportster, and a 2013 Royal Enfield B5 Bullet 500, just like the one you have there, except mine is green. It came with EFI, which I quickly replaced with an Amal carburetor. I also replaced the exhaust with a smaller, lighter, non cat con model. No computers on wheels for me. Motorcycles have gone past the point where they can be considered motorcycles anymore. They are now computers with wheels. You can't even get them with chrome anymore, they are all flat black. Complete TRASH. So none of this Chinese crap will have any effect on me. I will never buy another new motorcycle of any brand, because nobody even makes actual motorcycles anymore. They make computers. I refuse to ride a computer. Motorcycles can only evolve so far before they can no longer be considered motorcycles anymore, and we have already crossed that line.
Interesting ol lad.
Cheers
Hi yes they sold 700 CF Moto 450,s in Australia before they left the boats. I considered trading my 2016 V-Strom on one or the RE 450 , i ended up buying a near new 2023 V-Strom 650 , neither the CF or RE could hold a caddle to the trustee V-Strom.
Your V-Strom will go forever. Not sure I could say that for the CF or RE though. Only time will tell.
The problem with using KTM engines is that KTM themselves slash prices every autumn (at least, they do in the UK). 🙂 Currently, you could buy a 2023 790 Adventure for 6,999 UK pounds. The base 2024 model is 8,825. Will people buy the base KTM or the better-specced Chinese versions?
As far as BMW are concerned, the Voge 900 uses a version of the F900 engine.
The bmw 900 engine is a Chinese made loncin engine anyway so I doubt they mind. It is a bmw design and has proven itself up to the job. People often throw hate for the bike having a Chinese built engine.
@@chrishart8548 It's all above board. They have a deal with BMW.
@@chrishart8548 It's all above board. They have a deal with BMW.
The BMW 310s are all manufactured in India...and thats the thing...a lot of these countries are building bikes for the local population so they build them up to the European standards but have to price them for the local markets which is why theyre so damn good and yet cheap! Most of the Europeans have forgotten this! All the KTM 390s are produced in India and yet they are priced like theyre built in Europe? Thats a scam!
the G310 is horrific though. It's a giant vibrator, even by single cylinder standards.
I have a chinese 125cc bike bought second hand. I have had it 17 years now.
Passed the MOT again last month.👍
Good to hear!
it is italy+china over britain+india in premium motorcycles now and here in india the RE outshines not only a list of i dian manufacturers but benelli etc are no existent , reason - they lack character - for example the moto morini achemeizzo 650 and imperiale400 could not tackle the rough patch once when my small hunter 350 overcome it as it was nothing 20 kms down the road the schemeezio overtook me at 120 but i followed it at 110 and finally overtook it when it slowed down , once and for all it could not katch the constant torque of a long atroke 350😂😂
Interesting thoughts there Ian. However if another country could produce products cheaper than China would they allow them to be imported. I think not. The Japanese have never had a two way street policy that I know of. Postman Pat was banned in Japan as he only had 4 fingers. That apparently would've given a nod to the crime gangs over there.
Did not the japanese copy from the west, in the 50's, also!??
Hi there, from NewZealand. What do you think of the new Royal Enfield , Clasic 500cc, in new painted colours ? cheers Grant
Ehrm... ktm cheese cams? Kove same engine... tofu cams? No thanks would go for the yam of the three.
The former so-called industrial nations will have a difficult time in the future, because the world maps are currently being reshuffled and nothing will be as it once was.
Very true
Where do you go to get your motorcycle news these days?
Chinese bikes may be a bit better but still some way off. No real back up for spare parts, generally quality not quite as good also look at the respected known manufacturers who use Chinese engines or have their complete made there... It boils down to money from each side, buyers
to manufacturers...
If bikes keep selling out what will happen next? The manufacturer will up the price.
Either that or reduce the accessories. Some of the new bikes originally came out fully laden for touring but as time has gone on the luggage is now an added accessory at extra cost.
Do you think that the label "MADE IN [country]" tells you where that item has been made?
Long story, short: I used to attach "Made in China" labels to products in the non-Chinese factory where I worked.
I have never been to China and I don't know why I was told to label the products as if they had been made there.
Personally, I actually don't care who made what, as long as they did so, well ! :)
It's not just bikes. I knew someone who worked for Marks & Spencer. Some of their made in the UK clothes were made in sweatboxes in Morocco and other such places.
The Beatles era 1964-1970. In six short years, (or should I say six long years) , in a blink, an incredible world vanished. Primary industries and tertiary manufacturing industries went from exciting and viable to moribund and death row. From automobiles to knives and folks, from ship building to electronics and valves, from coal and steel to a once commercial airliner industry - the whole thing, was stalling then spiraling, onto a deathly dive. The unions came out and made the nails and Thatcher and co. hammered them into the last coffins. What a spectacular decline. Has there ever been, in history, a decline that rivaled this? Maybe a Pompei volcano? Cortez and the Incas?
In 60s Japanese bike were better than the others. Now chinese or indian are poor, cheaper copies. Price is THE ONLY reason people but them (and create ideology )). I saw last chinese bikes, I rode RE - none of them is european or japanese quality level.
"KTM, BMW are made in Chine". Oh My God; how many times this "argument". These motorcycles were designed by europeans - chinese is only workforce.
IPhone is also chinese product?
Till now chinese are not even to designed engine - only small c engines are really chinese.
No, this is not like 60s period - chinese and indian bikes are NOT same.
What bmw bike is built in China ? And don't say the G310gs that bike isn't even designed by bmw it's just a TVS with a bmw badge.