The video of John Smythe’s son gives us such an insight into the suffering of an abuse victim and he was so brave to do this interview. It is so tragic but encouraging to hear the way he is facing up to reality and trying to reach out to others.
I'm a Catholic from Ireland and love your show. You deal with a wide range of Christian issues in an open, clear, positive and calm manner and when you are critical it is always with compassion.
Kevin: Although I love you guys, as an active Anglican clergyman working in a large English parish I can assure you that the Church of England is not a cesspool. Andrew Graystone - the author of the book that revealed the extent of Smyth's abuse, recently made an insightful distinction and one I feel many Anglican clergy share: that there are, in effect, two Church's of England. One is the church on the ground, in the parish, led by dedicated faithful leaders and continuing to attract dedicated faithful congregations. This is the real Church of England and this is why many Anglican clergy will not abandon the CofE and their flocks. The second church is that of the Archbishops, bishops and all the senior managers and advisers. The trouble is, the second church believes IT is the real church! whereas in reality it has lost its connection with the people (and our God that it is meant to serve) and the clergy it is meant to support. And although I dislike Welby and thank God for his resignation, I suddenly feel compelled to pray for him most sincerely, and certainly for his health. We all make mistakes - and big ones at that. Ok, there is no excuse for incompetence and/or deceit. I believe he was always incapable of dealing with such matters and naively just hoped they would be forgotten about over time. He should never have been offered the position of ABC in the first place. But, the inevitable forthcoming fallout may, just may, produce an Archbishop worthy of the calling. And although the chances are indeed slim, we all live in hope!
What about the failings of the church on the ground tho? The “conspiracy of silence” comes from the ministers in the Big CE churches who were part of the Iwerne network of silence. A culture that demands no questions are asked and punishes/ostracises/slanders those who ask questions is still a dominant culture which very much comes from the top of the CE world. The CE world demands upmost loyalty and rewards those who keep quiet or never dare to ask difficult questions. That is sadly still the culture that’s still alive and kicking. Nick Howard’s article this week on what one “leading light” is saying he knew … compared to what was known / what’s in Makin is worth reading. It needs some reflection. There is a huge difference to how the CE churches are dealing with their role in this - and how PJ Smythe and his church have handled it, for example. Cathy Newmans interview with John Smythes son was deeply sad and moving. We watch on to see if others will learn and follow suite.
I did not know you are a serving Anglican clergyman brotherathelstan 8818 . like i said to you once before , great name. May we know your parish ? all the best.
I feel like, as a longtime viewer of AU, that Kevin & George do their best to regularly highlight this exact reality. They do, of course have a similar case within the Episcopal Church & its admin level bureaucracy is often referred to by them as "815", meaning the street address of the province offices.
As regards the bishops, I am reminded of the Latin maxim: Corruptio Optimi Pessima!!! We are seeing this in spades in the Church. It goes without saying we have seen this in the Roman Church as well!!! God, come to our assistance; O Lord make speed to help us!!!
So inspiring to hear how the power of The Gospel has set those prisoners Truly Free....... I discovered your unscripted ministry during Covid and I have been so grateful for your dedicated service to keep our Anglican community informed regarding each "bewildering and buffering wave" that we've encountered since then.... Praise God and thank you Keep up the good work Re "elephants in the room", I'm aware of a "pattern repeat" Pharaoh ordered the destruction of little boys in Moses' generation but could not stop God's chosen deliverer Rebellious kings allowed child sacrifice to Molech in the Valley of Hinnom and other idols but God's People remained faithful and The Seed destined to be quickened in Mary's womb was delivered Herod ordered the murder of boys of Jesus' age - Priests and Pharisees and Scribes orchestrated His crucifixion - but "what they meant for evil, God turned to good" and Jesus perfectly Finished His Work........once and for all His resurrection is our guarantee and Holy Spirit our comfort - united with God, in all circumstances, we will overcome For the horrific holocaust brought about the repatriation of Israel to The Promised land....... .....now "Be prepared" (Luke 21: 20-24) The insanely malicious onslaught upon unborn babies and the bodies and minds of young people worldwide today.................(Matthew 18:6) Trust in The Lord Fear Not for their safety Understand the times and know what you should do (1 Chronicles 12:32) Continue your Labour of Love and fight the Good Fight of Faith from Victory to Homecoming Love you guys You Be blessed (Glad to get that off my chest)
More wisdom from the States, thank you. The faithful Anglican churches I have attended in both Cambridge & Oxford would, I think, agree with every word you've said..
Don't forget that John Smythe was also senior Legal Counsel. Is anyone looking into the legal profession? For me the irony is that Smythe was Counsel for Mary Whitehouse and 'National VALA' in the 1976 prosecution of Denis Lemon, the young Editor of 'Gay News' for publishing a homoerotic poem on the crucifixion. I was seated behind 'Hairy Whitemouse' in the Court, and some may now opine that "a pervert was prosecutingf a pervert": but the difference is that one was honest and full of integrity: not so the other! And that 'other' was a 'devout churchgoer'.
I was raised RC, but Anglican Unscripted is my favorite podcast. I love the levelheaded approach from both of you!! May God send the Holy Spirit to purify and cleanse the Church!! Off only the bishops who get out of the way!!!🙏🙏🙏
Some Bishops were being protected by Welby. Now that he's gone will these errant Bishops ( particularly those persecuting orthodox clergy ) be more vulnerable now?
I have always been taught that a Biblical church must have these three attributes: 1. Preaches the clear Gospel of Jesus Christ; 2. Administers the sacraments; and 3. Exercises Biblical church discipline. It would appear that the Church of England has, for the most part, forfeited 2 of the 3. Lord have mercy!
I have shared the article submitted by Andrew Tam to Archbishop Andrew Chan and other leading Chinese clergy here in Hong Kong. I will write a response to Mr. Tam’s commentary to the Archbishop and to the pastoral staff of St. Andrew’s Church and at All Saints Cathedral. The archbishop is interested in my response. I really appreciate the way you have covered this issue and given the whole global Anglican community as well. Thank you both very much.
Oh yes G Gordon Liddy did indeed go to jail and later had a radio program in which he said as a convicted felon he was not allowed to own any guns, but his wife had a hell of a great collection. He was quite amusing on the radio.
Peter Ball was such a shock. I knew him when he was a novice at SSM in preparation for him & his brother Michael starting the Community of The Glorious Ascension . He was a really nice person & never would I have ever thought he would do what he was accused of . I was & remain shocked & greatly saddened. I can never understand what happened in his case & clearly I am not defending him just so confused.
This is a great comment. Thank you for sharing. It's often like this: such a deep betrayal that it affects close bystanders, if I may call them such, so strongly. Makes me think that there aren't enough sermons going around on Judas Iscariot; possibly because there aren't enough preachers who've experienced that, and the ones who have, still aren't able to preach on it.
Fortunately we religious have an ecclesial structure governed by our respective Minister Provincials, not driven by diocesan bishops, but still in communion with Canterbury.
Recent events regarding Justin Welby demonstrate the connection beetween moral fault and what Scripture describes as kokos or loss /destruction. Evil has no substance of its own. It simply involves loss e.g. loss of a good conscience. Sermons should remind the faithful sbout the good that is lost when sin occurs.
I’m listening to this 00.52 Liverpool time. I’m bloody depressed. I find it difficult to go to church. To worship with other people. I can walk with the church. I don’t think I can lead. But I am a coward. I visit Mirfield. And the students are there. How do they feel. The students give me encouragement. Can you make a program that gives more encouragement. PLEASE.
The problem or elephant in the room is the criteria for the selection of Anglican bishops and the pool from which they are selected. The system produces 'company' men and women who can sign up to the pernicious principle of 'collegiality', which in practise requires 'agreeing to close ranks, present a united front, and not spill the beans'. Some account of character, calibre, and moral compass needs to be taken. Tame institutional poodles, catspaws, and cowards is not the answer. Fortunately, there are some wonderful exceptions but they are few and far between. A root and branch revision is required and is probably best led by the laity.
While I agree with Brother Athelstan that at parish level the C of E is not a cesspool, the level of understanding of what has been going on within the leadership amongst the average congregant is extremely poor. Most of those I speak to have very little knowledge of Welby's conduct or of that of other bishops. I understand why people focus on what is happening in their local community and the things that have a direct impact on them but their lack of awareness of the wider context is one of the reasons why the C of E is in such a mess.
Going back to my charismatic renewal days (before it imploded into gross error imported from abroad, to be diplomatic!) I was always surprised at the number of evangelicals who were adamantly opposed to the renewal who referred to the Holy Spirit as _it_ rather than _him._ Such a basic mistake didn't inspire much confidence in their criticisms of charismatic distinctives, even if this was on occasion justified.
All the online search engines refuse to tell me the answer to a request as to which author said that an English gentleman and a homosexual is a distinction without a difference. Oscar Wilde? He would have known.
Is the elephant in the room Eric Nash? Didn’t he set the camps up and he chose Smythe to be his successor? Didn’t Jonathan Fletcher also go on those camps without missing a single one…? Weren’t the camps called The Bash Camps ? I’ve heard that was because his nickname was “Bash” or something ? But why was his nick name Bash? It’s very odd - especially in the light if Makin…. The dictionary definition of bash is “to violently strike”. I’ve been told by some CEs that it’s wrong to even ask if there is a link. Although a lack of curiosity has been found to be rigorously condemned following Makin. So maybe others who know more than me can speak into that history and coincidence ?
A great deal of good was achieved through the camps; that should not be forgotten: branding all with the same brush is simply disingenuous. The High Church and the Liberals also have much to answer for in their 'ministry' that was very much less than 'Christian'. Granted Smyth and Fletcher were awful but so has been the tempting and abuse of teenage boys by gay clergy which went very largely unchallenged by bishops. THIS IS WHY WE NEED A ROOT AND BRANCH REVISION OF THE WAY IN WHICH BISHOPS ARE SELECTED, THE POOL FROM WHICH THEY ARE SELECTED, AND THE CRITERIA ON WHICH THEY ARE SELECTED. What recent events have shown is an egregious lack of character and courage by altogether too many of them. The sooner the laity have a far greater say in these matters the better.
@@margarethills8218 Without trying to sound offensive, I have to say that you are speculating from a position of ignorance. Bringing people to an orthodox faith is 'good work', and there are thousands who have benefited. That there have been some bad apples at the top of the tree and others at the top of their trees who turned a blind eye to them is no reason to condemn the whole crop. Also, I still see no mention of the bad apples in the High Church and Liberal camps: some integrity from there would be welcome.
@campbellpaget453 you can tell yourself I’m ignorant if you like. I suspect (like many who enjoyed their afternoon teas on the lawn of claymore school) you are actually more ignorant than you realise. Wilfully closing your eyes to the damage done to thousands more, excluded - made to feel second class in the church of Jesus Christ as a result of this social club dressed up to look like Christianity. It’s a perversion of the gospel - abhorrent and divisive. Jesus never excluded the poor, but these camps do. Many have been patronised and told they were bitter or jealous for pointing out this anti-Christian basis for the private club, operating at the heart of conservative evangelicalism. I’m offended by it. And I don’t apologise for that and nor will I pretend the end justifies the means.
The issue is not past sins and crimes, but the new man in Christ. If the bishop and the diocese have full knowledge and the fellow is repentant and contrite then they are called to discern God’s will in this matter. I know two ex-cons who went on to become priests. If the conviction came after the fact, that is dofferent
Just watched 891 as a c of England. Pleae send me encouragement. I go to midfield the stude.nts and priests there do. I find it difficult to go to church the slightest excuse I do not want to go it's difficult.
The video of John Smythe’s son gives us such an insight into the suffering of an abuse victim and he was so brave to do this interview.
It is so tragic but encouraging to hear the way he is facing up to reality and trying to reach out to others.
I'm a Catholic from Ireland and love your show. You deal with a wide range of Christian issues in an open, clear, positive and calm manner and when you are critical it is always with compassion.
Catholic fan in Australia ❤
Kevin: Although I love you guys, as an active Anglican clergyman working in a large English parish I can assure you that the Church of England is not a cesspool. Andrew Graystone - the author of the book that revealed the extent of Smyth's abuse, recently made an insightful distinction and one I feel many Anglican clergy share: that there are, in effect, two Church's of England. One is the church on the ground, in the parish, led by dedicated faithful leaders and continuing to attract dedicated faithful congregations. This is the real Church of England and this is why many Anglican clergy will not abandon the CofE and their flocks. The second church is that of the Archbishops, bishops and all the senior managers and advisers. The trouble is, the second church believes IT is the real church! whereas in reality it has lost its connection with the people (and our God that it is meant to serve) and the clergy it is meant to support. And although I dislike Welby and thank God for his resignation, I suddenly feel compelled to pray for him most sincerely, and certainly for his health. We all make mistakes - and big ones at that. Ok, there is no excuse for incompetence and/or deceit. I believe he was always incapable of dealing with such matters and naively just hoped they would be forgotten about over time. He should never have been offered the position of ABC in the first place. But, the inevitable forthcoming fallout may, just may, produce an Archbishop worthy of the calling. And although the chances are indeed slim, we all live in hope!
What about the failings of the church on the ground tho? The “conspiracy of silence” comes from the ministers in the Big CE churches who were part of the Iwerne network of silence. A culture that demands no questions are asked and punishes/ostracises/slanders those who ask questions is still a dominant culture which very much comes from the top of the CE world. The CE world demands upmost loyalty and rewards those who keep quiet or never dare to ask difficult questions. That is sadly still the culture that’s still alive and kicking.
Nick Howard’s article this week on what one “leading light” is saying he knew … compared to what was known / what’s in Makin is worth reading. It needs some reflection.
There is a huge difference to how the CE churches are dealing with their role in this - and how PJ Smythe and his church have handled it, for example. Cathy Newmans interview with John Smythes son was deeply sad and moving.
We watch on to see if others will learn and follow suite.
I did not know you are a serving Anglican clergyman brotherathelstan 8818 . like i said to you once before , great name. May we know your parish ? all the best.
The Anglican Communion, and Las Vegas, are filled with people betting on slim hope. Prayers for those in Vegas, none for Anglicans.
I feel like, as a longtime viewer of AU, that Kevin & George do their best to regularly highlight this exact reality. They do, of course have a similar case within the Episcopal Church & its admin level bureaucracy is often referred to by them as "815", meaning the street address of the province offices.
As regards the bishops, I am reminded of the Latin maxim: Corruptio Optimi Pessima!!! We are seeing this in spades in the Church. It goes without saying we have seen this in the Roman Church as well!!! God, come to our assistance; O Lord make speed to help us!!!
1p minutes in , wonderful testimony to God's grace and your love anf faithfulness, thank you George.
So inspiring to hear how the power of The Gospel has set those prisoners Truly Free.......
I discovered your unscripted ministry during Covid and I have been so grateful for your dedicated service to keep our Anglican community informed regarding each "bewildering and buffering wave" that we've encountered since then....
Praise God and thank you
Keep up the good work
Re "elephants in the room",
I'm aware of a "pattern repeat"
Pharaoh ordered the destruction of little boys in Moses' generation but could not stop God's chosen deliverer
Rebellious kings allowed child sacrifice to Molech in the Valley of Hinnom and other idols but God's People remained faithful and The Seed destined to be quickened in Mary's womb was delivered
Herod ordered the murder of boys of Jesus' age - Priests and Pharisees and Scribes orchestrated His crucifixion - but "what they meant for evil, God turned to good" and Jesus perfectly Finished His Work........once and for all
His resurrection is our guarantee and Holy Spirit our comfort - united with God, in all circumstances, we will overcome
For the horrific holocaust brought about the repatriation of Israel to The Promised land.......
.....now "Be prepared" (Luke 21: 20-24)
The insanely malicious onslaught upon unborn babies and the bodies and minds of young people worldwide today.................(Matthew 18:6)
Trust in The Lord
Fear Not for their safety
Understand the times and know what you should do (1 Chronicles 12:32)
Continue your Labour of Love and fight the Good Fight of Faith from Victory to Homecoming
Love you guys
You Be blessed
(Glad to get that off my chest)
Thank you for the wonderful testimonies from prison. Blessings from the uk.
More wisdom from the States, thank you. The faithful Anglican churches I have attended in both Cambridge & Oxford would, I think, agree with every word you've said..
The child abuse is not the only thing wrong with the church. The appeasement of Islam needs to stop too.
@@royquick-s5n The greatest kindness we can do for a Muslim is to help them leave Islam.
@@royquick-s5n Most likely how he confronted the Jews. He revealed their hypocrisy and their need to repent and return to the living God!
Don't forget that John Smythe was also senior Legal Counsel. Is anyone looking into the legal profession? For me the irony is that Smythe was Counsel for Mary Whitehouse and 'National VALA' in the 1976 prosecution of Denis Lemon, the young Editor of 'Gay News' for publishing a homoerotic poem on the crucifixion. I was seated behind 'Hairy Whitemouse' in the Court, and some may now opine that "a pervert was prosecutingf a pervert": but the difference is that one was honest and full of integrity: not so the other! And that 'other' was a 'devout churchgoer'.
Thank you for further analysis of the consequences of the Smyth affair.
I was raised RC, but Anglican Unscripted is my favorite podcast. I love the levelheaded approach from both of you!! May God send the Holy Spirit to purify and cleanse the Church!! Off only the bishops who get out of the way!!!🙏🙏🙏
Some Bishops were being protected by Welby. Now that he's gone will these errant Bishops ( particularly those persecuting orthodox clergy ) be more vulnerable now?
I have always been taught that a Biblical church must have these three attributes: 1. Preaches the clear Gospel of Jesus Christ; 2. Administers the sacraments; and 3. Exercises Biblical church discipline. It would appear that the Church of England has, for the most part, forfeited 2 of the 3. Lord have mercy!
I have shared the article submitted by Andrew Tam to Archbishop Andrew Chan and other leading Chinese clergy here in Hong Kong. I will write a response to Mr. Tam’s commentary to the Archbishop and to the pastoral staff of St. Andrew’s Church and at All Saints Cathedral. The archbishop is interested in my response.
I really appreciate the way you have covered this issue and given the whole global Anglican community as well. Thank you both very much.
Wonderful to hear the prisoners’ testimonies!
God bless you, thank you
George’s testimony of how The Lord is using his prison ministry gave me chills.
Ps could you post an interview with the people involved?
@@Matter_C its a maximum security prison. Very hard to do anything like that.
Kevin's facial expression at 1:42 should be used in future promos.
Oh yes G Gordon Liddy did indeed go to jail and later had a radio program in which he said as a convicted felon he was not allowed to own any guns, but his wife had a hell of a great collection. He was quite amusing on the radio.
Perhaps some men are simply drawn to an organization where they think they can get away with abuse
Peter Ball was such a shock. I knew him when he was a novice at SSM in preparation for him & his brother Michael starting the Community of The Glorious Ascension . He was a really nice person & never would I have ever thought he would do what he was accused of . I was & remain shocked & greatly saddened. I can never understand what happened in his case & clearly I am not defending him just so confused.
This is a great comment. Thank you for sharing. It's often like this: such a deep betrayal that it affects close bystanders, if I may call them such, so strongly.
Makes me think that there aren't enough sermons going around on Judas Iscariot; possibly because there aren't enough preachers who've experienced that, and the ones who have, still aren't able to preach on it.
Fortunately we religious have an ecclesial structure governed by our respective Minister Provincials, not driven by diocesan bishops, but still in communion with Canterbury.
Recent events regarding Justin Welby demonstrate the connection beetween moral fault and what Scripture describes as kokos or loss
/destruction. Evil has no substance of its own. It simply involves loss e.g. loss of a good conscience. Sermons should remind the faithful sbout the good that is lost when sin occurs.
I’m listening to this 00.52 Liverpool time. I’m bloody depressed. I find it difficult to go to church. To worship with other people.
I can walk with the church. I don’t think I can lead. But I am a coward.
I visit Mirfield. And the students are there. How do they feel. The students give me encouragement.
Can you make a program that gives more encouragement. PLEASE.
That would be the Daily Office. Try a podcast if you've never done it before. You're not alone.
The problem or elephant in the room is the criteria for the selection of Anglican bishops and the pool from which they are selected. The system produces 'company' men and women who can sign up to the pernicious principle of 'collegiality', which in practise requires 'agreeing to close ranks, present a united front, and not spill the beans'. Some account of character, calibre, and moral compass needs to be taken. Tame institutional poodles, catspaws, and cowards is not the answer. Fortunately, there are some wonderful exceptions but they are few and far between. A root and branch revision is required and is probably best led by the laity.
So what exactly is the elephant in the room you alluded to?
While I agree with Brother Athelstan that at parish level the C of E is not a cesspool, the level of understanding of what has been going on within the leadership amongst the average congregant is extremely poor. Most of those I speak to have very little knowledge of Welby's conduct or of that of other bishops. I understand why people focus on what is happening in their local community and the things that have a direct impact on them but their lack of awareness of the wider context is one of the reasons why the C of E is in such a mess.
Transparancy and the C of E? A Non sequitur if ever I heard one.
The elephant in the room, us that abused children are 50/50 male/female but few women abuse children.
This doesn't make grammatical sense.
Anglican clergy should not be praying Islamic prayers. See the book: "Enablers of Islam: The Church"
When referring to the Holy Spirit please refer to Him as 'Him' NOT 'It'. The Lord is not an 'it'.
Going back to my charismatic renewal days (before it imploded into gross error imported from abroad, to be diplomatic!) I was always surprised at the number of evangelicals who were adamantly opposed to the renewal who referred to the Holy Spirit as _it_ rather than _him._ Such a basic mistake didn't inspire much confidence in their criticisms of charismatic distinctives, even if this was on occasion justified.
In a very unscripted way kevin misspoke.
All the online search engines refuse to tell me the answer to a request as to which author said that an English gentleman and a homosexual is a distinction without a difference. Oscar Wilde? He would have known.
Is the elephant in the room Eric Nash? Didn’t he set the camps up and he chose Smythe to be his successor? Didn’t Jonathan Fletcher also go on those camps without missing a single one…? Weren’t the camps called The Bash Camps ? I’ve heard that was because his nickname was “Bash” or something ? But why was his nick name Bash?
It’s very odd - especially in the light if Makin….
The dictionary definition of bash is “to violently strike”.
I’ve been told by some CEs that it’s wrong to even ask if there is a link. Although a lack of curiosity has been found to be rigorously condemned following Makin.
So maybe others who know more than me can speak into that history and coincidence ?
A great deal of good was achieved through the camps; that should not be forgotten: branding all with the same brush is simply disingenuous. The High Church and the Liberals also have much to answer for in their 'ministry' that was very much less than 'Christian'. Granted Smyth and Fletcher were awful but so has been the tempting and abuse of teenage boys by gay clergy which went very largely unchallenged by bishops. THIS IS WHY WE NEED A ROOT AND BRANCH REVISION OF THE WAY IN WHICH BISHOPS ARE SELECTED, THE POOL FROM WHICH THEY ARE SELECTED, AND THE CRITERIA ON WHICH THEY ARE SELECTED. What recent events have shown is an egregious lack of character and courage by altogether too many of them. The sooner the laity have a far greater say in these matters the better.
@@campbellpaget453 how much “good work” was done by them depends on your perspective. I refute that any of it was good.
@@margarethills8218 Without trying to sound offensive, I have to say that you are speculating from a position of ignorance. Bringing people to an orthodox faith is 'good work', and there are thousands who have benefited. That there have been some bad apples at the top of the tree and others at the top of their trees who turned a blind eye to them is no reason to condemn the whole crop. Also, I still see no mention of the bad apples in the High Church and Liberal camps: some integrity from there would be welcome.
@campbellpaget453
you can tell yourself I’m ignorant if you like. I suspect (like many who enjoyed their afternoon teas on the lawn of claymore school) you are actually more ignorant than you realise. Wilfully closing your eyes to the damage done to thousands more, excluded - made to feel second class in the church of Jesus Christ as a result of this social club dressed up to look like Christianity. It’s a perversion of the gospel - abhorrent and divisive. Jesus never excluded the poor, but these camps do. Many have been patronised and told they were bitter or jealous for pointing out this anti-Christian basis for the private club, operating at the heart of conservative evangelicalism. I’m offended by it. And I don’t apologise for that and nor will I pretend the end justifies the means.
You’re having transmission issues…
10 mins in
Ruch knowingly ordained a man who served jail time for soliciting prostitution. When does he resign?
pays for consensual sex? that guy’s bishop material.
The issue is not past sins and crimes, but the new man in Christ. If the bishop and the diocese have full knowledge and the fellow is repentant and contrite then they are called to discern God’s will in this matter. I know two ex-cons who went on to become priests. If the conviction came after the fact, that is dofferent
@ the conviction happened while he was a PCA pastor. He went on to act out against a female ACNA deacon.
Just watched 891 as a c of England. Pleae send me encouragement. I go to midfield the stude.nts and priests there do. I find it difficult to go to church the slightest excuse I do not want to go it's difficult.