Lines That Never Were: Route 8 to East Croydon
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 16 ธ.ค. 2024
- I think the Victoria Line must have had more planning stages than any railway in London. Let’s look at the time when it wasn’t even going to be an Underground line.
For more on the County of London Plan: • Lines That Never Were:...
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The sound of the Victoria Line train coursing through its deep underground vein at 4:03 gave me a piercing, wonderfully nostalgic heartache. I miss London.
I must say the addition of the maps is a much appreciated addition for someone like me that doesn't live in the UK and have only a passing familiarity of London's geography.
Same here as I don't live in London either
@@Roshi_710 North London is at the Top, South London at the Bottom. all you need really
@@highpath4776 Well all Maps are generally made that way
@@Roshi_710 not all women know that.
@@Bruce-1956 Yeah a lot of people don’t know how to read maps anymore these days...
A quick preemptive like and away we go.
Every time, no hesitation..
HERE HERE!:-) 🖖
Same here!
Putting everything underground would have been very expensive when proposed, but with the price of land in London these days it would just about pay for itself, i.e., selling off all the land the surface rails uses, which is a lot. They could even use the land to build brutalist tower blocks -- Jago Towers and Hazzard Hamlet hehe.
The other option would be to leave the railway on the surface, but build over it anyway. The would be ideal for those Mega City One constructions. The blocks would stretch the width of the switching yards and stations, the walkways could be two or three stories in the air . Given the architectural talents of the time every wind could be accelerated by the locations of the blocks. Hudson Yards in New York and I think the Rockefeller Center do this.
What would be nice is to bury those rail lines where possible and build gardens and parks over the top.
@@7mus7y be careful what you wish for. BM1 has just put up a video about Stuttgart 21 . Which is doing just that in Stuttgart. It being compared to cross rail and HS2.
th-cam.com/video/MvLpycG2P5Y/w-d-xo.html
@@7mus7y Who needs a park when you can have an ugly concrete block
Still really happy I found this channel. Not going on holiday any time soon, so this is still some trip to London experience (:
In the 1949 working party plan, they proposed the Victoria Line to go all the way to Croydon under the A23 aswell a new branch to Angle Road
2:28 must be the most cavalier approach to littering. "Woe! I dropped my paper!"
Route 8 was supposed to take over the Orpington suburban line via Penge & Bromley, as well as running under the A23 to Croydon then onto Purley and Caterham 😊 great video as ever!
And now we finally do have a rail link from East Croydon to Finsbury Park through Thameslink, the tunnels for which were there all the time (although they're nowhere near as frequent as the Victoria Line given how many other lines feed into Thameslink but probably passenger numbers don't demand that). The Victoria Line is my favourite Underground line; it's fast because there are fewer stops - just six stops from Oxford Circus to Brixton for example.
If that line had been built, I'm sure there would have been other stations between East Croydon and Brixton; it's a good eight miles.
Should have run beyond Brixton to Camberwell and Peckham Ideally , maybe down to Grove Park ? North carry onto Chingford and take the northern section of the Central with an interchange at Woodford area ?
I live between croydon and vrixtin and a tube line is as needed as the northern line between Clapham and tooting
@@highpath4776 i dont think camberwell and Peckham needs it i think Streatham needs it so does croydon
@@adonaiyah2196 Indeed Streatham High Road is to say the least, busy. Maybe rinning the victoria line under the hils to Streatham and Norbury as a minimum might help
1:57 responsible pidgeon crossing the street in between the lines
Be like piegon
😆
Loved the shot of Hyde Park Corner at 4:59 with the original tiles and the confusing exit information! There's so much more to see than trains on the underground but most people don't notice or appreciate it. You do.
Thanks!
_carefully cross-checks the links below_ _Ticks check box_ Splendid, thanks!
And yes please, routes one to seven would be very welcome. I’m not sure how I’ve managed without them, in fact.
Maybe they were Met, District, Circle, Northern, Central, Bakerloo and Piccadilly?
@@ricktownend9144 Jubilee / Fleet I think , Crossrail, Thamelinky thingy , Wimbledon / Chelsea / Hackney but I get confused what was proposed by the Committed and what was done by the commission, etc.
East Croydon station is so distinctive. I first set foot in Croydon in the summer 1991 for my interview at Croydon College of Art and the station was accessed via a temporary entrance in Dingwall Road, down by the Warehouse Theatre. It had hoardings all around it and I saw the station we know today gradually emerge the following year. Don't know where the last 30 years have gone!
Some of my earliest memories of the tube are the newly opened Victoria line ....its automatic queue-avoiding barriers with a little lugage rolly-thingy next to it ....and walls of square grey tiles, which seemed to fall off in great sheets ten years later!
The tiling on the Victoria Line is a thing of beauty, stations with themes such as Seven Sisters.
@@mushy3424 I'm not talking about the tiling behind the benches on the platforms. I mean the huge uniform walls of grey tiles that covered the other 99% of the Victoria line... and then fell off in great sheets of broken ceramic ten years later!
Very much appreciate the maps, thanks for putting them in. Great content as always
Congratulations to Potek but is anyone else incensed by the litter lout at 2:30?
marvellous as usual! good old Tube, when we go back to London to visit my youngsters are singularly impressed with how I know where and when to change to get somewhere. But when you live in London for any time you learn all the tricks. I so enjoy these stories of how things got to where they are....
Even just regularly visit family at weekends and you stay expert for life... it’s like riding a bicycle.
Great ep, Jago! So glad to see you're almost at 100K! Definitely well deserved!
Never knew about that experimental line at Seven Sisters. I’m glad it’s there as that’s where I get onto the tube from northeast London when I’m over.
"By the end it bore virtually no resemblance to the line it started out as"
Reminds me of how the Chelsea-hackney tube line has mutated into Crossrail 2...
Thanks again for the time and effort you put in to bring us these videos and details
As a tourist to London, the details included and reasons ate always very interesting
Good video as always. Glad to see some maps featured.
Wow you need to be verified! You're nearly at 100k subscribers too! Thats amazing
Loving the maps in this video!
Another excellent video. The Victoria line for those of us south of London is excellent In crossing London (never change at green park!)
Another well presented program an idea I didn't no of , thanks jago , always interesting London transport ,
The Victoria Line is my favourite of all the Underground lines, and I have no real reason for that. However, another excellent video and another enjoyable few minutes watching it. Thank you!
I would extend the Victoria Line from Brixton to East Croydon via Herne Hill, Tulse Hill, West Norwood, Gypsy Hill, Crystal Palace, South Norwood, Thornton Heath Pond, Selhurst, West Croydon & East Croydon.
Streatham desperately needs a tube station
@@Sonic_emperor They can have trams, extended from Croydon.
@@Sonic_emperor What if the Northern line was extended to Streatham and Croydon instead of Battersea?
Enjoying another interesting video over a cuppa tea - and geeking out over the fact that I actually (finally) spotted the old Hyde Park Corner entrance you highlighted (now The Wellesley) last year after passing it on a bus (having passed it dozens of times previously).
Seriously, until your videos I must have moved around London with my eyes closed. So much (transport) history and detail I've been missing and that I cannot wait to explore when we're allowed to go out and about our merry ways again. 👍👏
Your custom maps and station names are absolutely choice. 😚👌
Vicky’s my fave, always try and use it if there’s a long journey to be made and it’s possible: very nippy.
I think Geoff would have something to say about that!
Another great video. Liked the little toot at the end
Your so close to 100k, Jago!
So we now have another rule of thumb for London railways. Start with the heaviest gauge possible because the government will find an ideological reason to cut funding and dropping a gauge cut costs but still ends up in a railway.
Yup. Spot on. I look forward to the first underground in London to adopt the RH&DR loading gauge..
@@Peasmouldia Or maybe the second, as the Tower Subway wasn't much bigger! See Jago's video "The Tiny Tube of Tower Hill".
In the early 80s, the local ITV station for Kent once ran a news story about construction starting on the RHDR Channel Tunnel. Included shots of 15 inch gauge track in what I assume was a drainage tunnel somewhere. The story ran on April 1st, you understand...
Its too bad it never became
Nice one JH. I rode the line days after it first opened to the public. All brand new. I still preferred riding the CO/CP or R stock on the District though. The limited loading gauge of the deep dive lines always felt less like a "proper" train to me.
Thanks JH.
"Roads were considered to be the future." A big mistake. London during lockdown is better with reduced car traffic imo. Studies suggest cycling cities increase happiness also (London has a long way to go). Victoria line feels very quick if you start in the South wanting to go up to central London say compared to starting at Streatham Hill station then going to Victoria - which always takes ages - often pausing seemingly for a smoke or kit-kat around Balham before sedately preceding and then taking one last final break just outside Victoria before ploughing on with the final stage of the (epic) journey! Victoria Line is one of the best underground lines imo.
Thank you for the video as usual. It is appreciated.
Always more about the Underground is good. Please let’s here more about the other proposals.
Glad that London Transport got the Victoria line instead of more car parks.
Seemed like only yesterday you had less than a thousand subscribers. Please do a hundred thousand subscriber special.
I might do two - one for when I hit the goal, one for when lockdown lifts and I can do something a bit more special.
It was supposed to be a suburban through line instead
Marvellous as always! I had never considered how 'good' the govt is at producing red tape!
At 0:32 what's the significance of the oddly shaped/coloured UndergrounD "roundel"?
That's the changing shape of the post-war Underground.
This is my local (borough) line, although Buckhurst Hill is slightly nearer going by mileage.
I'm sure I read somewhere that in the 50's and early 60's, they were planning to go one further stop after Walthamstow and terminate at South Woodford, to join up with the Central Line. This would have given local people the option of getting the Central Line to the City, or the Victoria to the West End. Apparently planning permission to South Woodford was denied.
This is an amazing video - and so informative. I had absolutely no idea that there had been other original plans for the Victoria Line. Thanks so much for posting this. BTW - Pimlico as an afterthought for the line's planners is a real titbit of info. I always wondered why it's the only station on the Victoria Line that has no interchange with any other rail/tube service. Looking into the history of routes 1 - 7 sounds like a really interesting idea. 👏🏾
Definitely keen on a video about routes #1 to #7! Also disappointed that East Croydon missed out on being even better connected than it already is... although if Route 8 had come to pass, would we have got Thameslink?
Very much enjoying your tubular tales
Came to youtube at 12:03 PM expecting nothing, came to find a Jago Hazzard video.
It’s absolutely scandalous that Croydon has no tube stations ... Meanwhile the Duke of Westminster’s estate has tube stations every hundred meters.
Nowhere south of the Thames has an abundance of tube stations - blame geology. Croydon does have trams though.
@@visionsofhere3745: South London does have an abundance of National Rail stations though, in contrast to other parts of London (if I recall correctly that’s also a big reason why south London doesn’t have many tube stations too?) There’s also the Overground at West Croydon too...
I grew up in Croydon, I liked travelling on the train and hated going on the Tube, it was dark and horribly rattly. Nobody out there wants a Tube line.
Geological reasons, south of the river turns to gravel.
@@IndigoJo People living in a modern city in the 21st century say this? If tube trains are good enough for Hyde Park why not Croydon? And why is it either tube or surface rail?
You had me at "a radical reshaping"!
100k subscribers fast approaching!👍🏼
Victoria Line extension to East Croydon would be great!
Was surprised to see the Wellesley Hotel here! You should've walked down Brompton Street further to see the (now-disused) ex RAF HQ built into the stop after Knightsbridge. My old Town HQ as a University Air Squadron Officer! Good times were had in the bowels of that ex-station. Apparently, you used to be able to get on the old platform...
I learnt something new today, thanks.
Thanks for sharing another video, much appreciated 🙂🐿
The Sydney train map has so many stations with the same names (for obvious reasons) although not in the same order (again obviously) or even on the same lines. Looking at your rail map is like looking at ours, but someone has gone and mixed all the names up, put them in different locations and in a different order. It’s interesting, and kind of fun too. Has me researching the history of station names - here and there.
Thanks again 🙂🐿
"Changing the shape" literally. Not a roundel, a triangel.
Where did that one come from ! AEC ?
It should be noted a Wheel and Bar device used in the Midlands by the Birmingham and Midland Motor Omnibus Company ( Midland Red )
Promotion for the PS5 release
Convoluted as always, fitting for this video 😂
Keep up the good work fella and stay safe.
Sir, another fantastic video!
Thanks!
Yay Jago, you're edging towards 100k. Hope you're planning a party... 🎉 👍🏼 😊
I see that you had those who agreed with Robert Moses over there. He actually said that the NYC Subway would be made unnecessary by the car. He conveniently forgot that NYC is made up of islands. It is also true that he never had a driver’s license.
Have you read, "The Power Broker" by Robert Caro?
I live in hope that maybe the NY Subway will get a huge amount of funding and modernisation... dig step free access for a bunch of the stations, brand new walk-through trains, and so on. It deserves so much better than it’s been getting!
@@lawrencelewis8105 Got a copy. It's a fascinating read. Another book where Robert Moses plays a part is, "Tomorrow-Land, The 1964-65 World's Fair and the Transformation of America" by Joseph Tirella.
@@cris_261 I grew up on Long Island and had to live with decisions that he made, like the infamous "jog" in the Northern State Parkway. I'll have to look for Tirella's book, thanks for the suggestion.
@@lawrencelewis8105 You're welcome.
Interesting! This sounds very much like the Japanese way of conceiving metro lines: not as self-contained entities running on a separate network, but as underground links which provide both short-distance interconnecting transport in the central area, as well as interoperation onto suburban rail lines at the extremities, allowing for all sorts of direct journey combinations on the national network. My guess is that London missed out on a lot of opportunities by not considering this option, but it is also true that this is a completely different philosophy of conceiving a metro, which no passenger would be familiar/confident with. Not to mention the issue of loading gauge, and about 1000 other problems... but it surely makes the imagination fly!
If only we’d had a bit more long-term thinking at that time. You’re right, this view of having a totally joined-up system is something I often look at JR with envy about.
Think the plan was for a depot where the triangle of land is where the allotments are located between Sanderstead/Purley Oaks/the old Selsdon Road stations
100k subs by weekend😊😊
I agree with other commentators that the Victoria line should have also continued to East Croydon ideally also with a stop providing good access near Selhurst Park. Another major shortcoming is the new Northern line extension which should have continued to Clapham Junction.
The final discussion point for me is the lack of capacity on the network. With the Elizabeth line likely to redirect some central and other underground lines traffic so should we see Crossrail 2 and BML 2 from Brighton via Falmer, Uckfield, Croydon, Lewisham, Canary Wharf, Stratford then Essex to also release capacity on the over crowded lines on mainline rail, London Underground & Overground lines allowing for a gradual extension to stations and platforms on a line by line basis to increase the tube to 10-12 carriages compared to 7 on some (represents a 42% & 72% increase in capacity). I do belief that whenever work in done on the TfL lines that consideration for the adding of platform edge doors should be also viewed as highly recommended.
I love your videos almost as much as Geoff's.
very nice 8am upload. I have to go and get a swab later so this is nice as I get ready.
Did anyone notice at the end (5.49) at Hyde Park Corner, The glazed tiles on the wall declared NO EXIT which, was next to a Way Out sign.
I wonder if this was one of Jago's surreptitious dry humour observations, or just pure coincidence?
A coincidence when I filmed it - I didn’t spot it until the edit.
I was going to make the same observation, but you beat me to it.
@@JagoHazzard Seems like the chancellors latest Covid Recovery Plan directions.
We love a nice committee. Makes me proud to be British just how much you can avoid actually doing with a committee at the helm.
That's why we have zoom, for endless committee meetings. Although I have learnt to mute and take my face off and carry on with the cooking or any other boring home chore that needs doing!
Alternative? Despots sending decisions down without discussion? Random disorganised activity in no particular direction?
Just as I despise people blaming the unions for everything, I can't see the logic of bad-mouthing administrative structures out-of-hand. If you want informed decisions, taking all parties' needs and concerns into account, they're going to have to get together somehow.
@@robbybobbyhobbies "Despots sending decisions down without discussion? Random disorganised activity in no particular direction?"
We maange to get this sort of thing anyway, with added committes for everything else. One of the joys of being British!
We have a saying in German: "Wenn man nicht mehr weiter weiß, / gründet man 'nen Arbeitskreis" - "For those without a clue, / A committee's what to do!"
Thanks for this video and it’s insights. So, we went from a plan conceived during the war which anticipated the Paris RER network to a minister of transport who thought that car parks would be a better use of taxpayers money than a railway! And we think that we have problems.
_Route 8 to East Croydon_ reads like the title of an even weirder sequel to _Plan 9 from Outer Space._
Great video. ☺️
Like the new video .Thanks
Circuitous, what a terrific word, strange how cirkit becomes cirkewit when ios added to the end.
The sad thing was that as the car became King we lost a lot of railways. I can remember my late father telling me of the corruption that was taking place at the time . As I was young I did not really take it in but history has proved him right. No names mentioned of course
A great deal of those lines/stations had been losing catastrophic amounts of money for years, and would certainly have closed no matter what. Even if they were still open, they'd still be financially disastrous. Oddly, this is rarely mentioned.
@@visionsofhere3745 Yeah, right. Take the example of Blackpool Central, with lines coming in from Crewe, Manchester, Liverpool, and all points south and east. When calculating the revenue for the station the merry band of Marples and Beeching totted up the ticket sales FROM Blackpool.
The vast majority of travellers to the town came from somewhere else with return tickets. Work it out. Millions of passengers, but only piddling ticket sales. Close it down. Shut the busiest and most convenient rail interchange and turn the trackbed into a trunk road and a car park. What a master stroke.
@@visionsofhere3745 while some of them were like that, there were many stations that would have been in the black with just some ticket machines and staff downsizing. Beeching’s decree was absolutist. Many of the lines have even been reopened in recent years, especially in Scotland and the North, and there’s yet more proposals to reopen even more of them (eg the old Oxford-Cambridge line keeps being proposed and looks like it may get approval this time).
Another great video!!
I had a dream where the Victoria line was extended to East Croydon and Beckenham junction to the south and Hainault and Meridian water to the north.
Whenever I hear "Finsbury Park", the theme from "Doctor in the House" starts in my head..
Oh yes , my breakfast company . Good morning jago, thank you for the video .
What a fantasticly circuious video. I would love to know what happened to routes 1-7 and was one of them possibly the fleet line? I am sure you will deliver in a cut price way Jago.
"Until the government said uh fine." Are we to take it from this that the Conservative government of the late 1950s was comprised mostly of stroppy teenagers? If so, did the government then say "I hate you." before loudly slamming the door of number 10?
That's soooo unfair!
And then turned up the music as much as possible.
Are you implying the conservative government of 2021 isn’t comprised mostly of stroppy teenagers
@@emilyoswin3830 I think they are stroppy teenagers... I mean, who else throws parties in the middle of a global pandemic?
I don't know why but I've always been more fascinated by projets that never happened than lines that actually exist ^^
1:50 bond streeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet
Route 8 was a very good idea. It is still needed, although it should go south of East Croydon, probably to Coulsdon North - oh no! they have built a road on that. Railways in South London are pathetic: they criss-cross all over the place the direct route to London and do not take you to where you probably want to go, the centre of London, or through it to some sensible place, like West Yorkshire, or somewhere you can at least change directly to a train there.
Interesting. Would have been easy for me to take east croydon up into London.
Still hoping on a Northern line extension from Morden to Sutton though.
All these videos just make me envy the transport system you have. Australia can only dream really. We're ever so slowly catching up, but not seriously.
Just build crosstown lines and reroute some suburban rail lines and run more service problems solved
@@qjtvaddict I wish the bean-counters would make it so easy! I’m sure the civil engineers have the will!
So sad it never made it to East Croydon
Great video jago, cheap is good, spend the money on carparks 🙄, very interesting 😀👍👌
"Pimlico was more of an afterthought." Well, looks like it stayed an afterthought until present day
Now imagining what if the Victoria line was built with tunnels big enough for mainline trains and had surface connections to the railways at West Croydon and at Finchley Park..... if only.....
Good job Walthamstow was added to the Victoria Line
Another tale from the tube! Goodie! 99 K subs an rising !!!
If the Underground used trains like that green Southern one I would be far less snobby about using the Tube!
Bond Streeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
Followed by a safety 1st pigeon crossing the road between the lines.
You Better Get To That Special Number Of 100000 And I Wish You Luck
I noted the part where "Route 8" was originally supposed to be a main line in a tunnel, but is there any indication that at any point London Transit was ever planning to redesignate the various lines with numbers, like the Paris Metro and NYC Subway?
For that matter, is there any indication of any past plan to redesignate the lines by their respective colors, similar to most (but not all) American subways?
Switzerland: How can we make stuff more expensive to do...Britain: How can we do stuff cheap
Marvellous as always Mr Hazzard. Any chance on a video about he Victoria Line / Oxford Circus Umbrella?
That’s one I certainly have under consideration.
Love the maps!
Perhaps the Victoria Line could of extend from Brixton to East Croydon (and West Croydon). And from Walthamstow Central to South Woodford.
Or the Victoria Line could take over the Central Line Hainault Loop if it was to extend to Woodford and to run the Hainault Loop to Hainault with the Central Line to terminate at Hainault.
Brixton as end of the Victorialine is a little bit odd as there´s so much beyond ! U10 in Berlin may be a similiair line wich never went ahead althought a large part of the tunnels where built, transfered to U9 partly at the end, with this U10 beside U8 there´s a parallel S Bahn route around so no likely extension. Southern Londoners may prefer buses instead of the tube for the furthur short ride to work probably, if they don´t like the underground, what should a Croydon have to loolk for beyond Marlebone Euston Kingscoss line ? Not very muchy I believe. Other way around the same would a noth londoner want to go south of the thames on a regular basis beside Waterloo station or excisting lines. Last there´s the double fair for Tube and rail to conscider. Time changed a national rail pass would survive much better than in the 60´s 70´s with Thameslink. Crossrailo 2 need to be something special to beat Crosrail 1 in field of ridershop , usefulness. Overground and thameslink , rail tram make a diffrence for accesiblility of this area, tube sporadic only the city, beyond of little importance. Bakerloo may soon or later have it´s extension eventualy from Elepheant Castle, when will Brixton become just a halt and the route is extended beyond ? Time will tell !
Sounds interesting. Nice. Thanks for the feedback.
I was just talking about NYC's infamous 2nd avenue subway. But we have a west coast version sort of in the fabled mid bay crossing. Back in the 50's Frank Lloyd Wright put pencil to paper creating a parklike commuter bridge about 12 or so kilometers across the wide part of SF Bay. It would have had a commuter line on the surface along with all the other frankly impossible amenities. ahem.
So the whispers of the BART system adding a mid bay crossing is about as old as the system itself, 50-ish? They will be talking about getting some initial planning permission money together in another decade or so, to you know, talk about getting permission to ask whether we really need it. Or not. You know, in case more connectivity is a bad thing.
100K very soon! 👍
I do enjoy people not looking at you filming; just going about their business despite a handsome man standing at one side staring at them :D
You may have an optimistic view of my appearance.
@@JagoHazzard Don't be so hard on yourself!