Would love to see the Gen 1-3 list, tho it was really interesting to see how many gen 9 mons appreciate the split. Would love to see how they'd do in ADV OU
The monthly OM in showdown is actually just reverting the physical special split. It's called type split. If u don't watch him PokeaimMD just did a video showcasing it.
Great vid. For a small channel, you put a lot of work into this. I really hope it grows, and I dropped a sub. Would be nice if you blurred the special stat of glimmora so I didn’t have to avert my eyes to try and guess :P
Really big differences between some of these stats. Weavile & Chien-Po really have massive special & physical attack stats. For an idea what about Pokemon that were hurt by the physical/special split like how Alakazam no longer ran the elemental punches
I think Gengar is one of the pokemon that benefits the least from the physical special split - in fact it might have slightly harmed him. Gen3 OU Gengar is one of the most centralizing and diverse threats in any pokemon singles metagame. Having access to Fire punch and ice punch hit from spatk is huge for ADV threats like Flygon, Salamence, Forretress, Skarmory, Metagross, zapdos, jirachi, claydol, magneton, aero, heracross, breloom, etc...
This isn’t necessarily true because you’re not considering the relative optimization that would occur. To see this, import this set into the damage calc: Gengar @ Leftovers Level: 100 Hasty Nature Ability: Levitate EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe - Sludge Bomb - Ice Punch - Fire Punch - Shadow Ball Then go and change Gengar’s base Atk stat to 130 and it’s base SpA to 65 (switch them), and make sure to max IVs on both. The reason this is representative is bc we’re directly comparing 2 of its (originally) stat-aligned coverage moves to 2 of its (originally) stat-misaligned STAB moves in this set. Since the moves are all ones whose category switched in later gens (unlike t bolt for example), we can switch the base stats to simulate the predicted change in outcomes based on a (future Gen) switch in stat-alignment and misalignment of these moves relative to each other when used on Gengar in gen 3. You can also do this with moves like hyper beam and thunder punch, but keep in mind that t bolt exists either way (and it won’t lose effectiveness with stat optimizations). Also, sometimes checking hidden power is useful since it’s reasonable to suppose that in a world where gen3 OU had the physical-special split that stuff like hp ice might get run on it. All things being considered, shadow ball becomes a much stronger threat. And at first, it’s not enough vs a number of the mons you mentioned… but now change the nature to adamant or even lonely (which are just ways to represent subsequent nature reinvestment that might be reasonably expected for some sets). This skews a couple matchups in favor of physical-special split gengar. Next, check some matchups it might gain favorability in. I’m not that experienced at gen3 OU tbh, so I might be way off here, but mons like starmie, celebi, and milotic come to mind here. I didn’t check if gengar gets ohko’d by their most common sets (which iirc might be the case for ones running psychic) so these might not change but you get the idea. We’re not done yet. Obviously, we have to compare to normal gengar (with stats as they actually are) and compare the best move’s damage range from the normal set vs the custom set in each matchup (opening two damage calculator tabs side by side is most efficient). You could spend a long time writing spreadsheet tables to figure out if the math agrees with your statement. I’m not really saying you’re wrong though, just that you *could* be wrong, and this is way to approximate “mathing it out” if you want to find out for yourself. I suspect that its good coverage moves do make an important difference, which means you’ve got a point. However, I also suspect that difference is less impactful than you might be thinking.
The point is that some of its moves get worse, but others get better, and some of its coverage remains unchanged (tbolt, psychic, hp ice, explosion, all status moves), and other than the reinvestment, still are very effective. It might make gengar more rounded actually, but that doesn’t necessarily make it worse.
@@holda2375 It's a really interesting question. With the prevalence of ttar, almost zero psychic types (metagross, jirachi, medicham all are neutral damage), and lack of many good targets (minus starmie and celebi you mentioned) most Gengar probably wouldn't run Shadow Ball in ADV OU if it were on the special side. If we give Gen3 Gengar special shadow ball (change it's type to a neutral type like electric and change shadow balls type to electric) we get things like this: 252 SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 128 HP / 0 SpD Metagross: 143-169 (42.9 - 50.7%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO where a super effective coverage move like fire punch is a guaranteed 2HKO 252 SpA Gengar Fire Punch vs. 128 HP / 0 SpD Metagross: 180-212 (54 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO I can't speak for later generations but Gengar would lose out for sure in Gen3 ou if there was the physical special split. Losing Fire and Ice punch hitting off the 130 special attack is huge. Both punch moves have very relevant 4x super effective targets (Forretress, Salamence, Flygon) as well as a ridiculous amount of 2x SE targets Anyways all this to say losing the special punches greatly outweighs getting special shadow ball. At the end of the day we are much better off clicking the SE coverage move.
Would love to see the Gen 1-3 list, tho it was really interesting to see how many gen 9 mons appreciate the split. Would love to see how they'd do in ADV OU
The monthly OM in showdown is actually just reverting the physical special split. It's called type split. If u don't watch him PokeaimMD just did a video showcasing it.
I find it funny how you wanted us to guess Glimmora’s Special Attack stat when it was literally shown onscreen already lol.
Ya I know I'm a dingus. I completely forgot about that when editing.
Great vid. For a small channel, you put a lot of work into this. I really hope it grows, and I dropped a sub.
Would be nice if you blurred the special stat of glimmora so I didn’t have to avert my eyes to try and guess :P
Thanks, literally forgot I said that part when I was editing that would have been a good idea.
Really big differences between some of these stats. Weavile & Chien-Po really have massive special & physical attack stats. For an idea what about Pokemon that were hurt by the physical/special split like how Alakazam no longer ran the elemental punches
I think Gengar is one of the pokemon that benefits the least from the physical special split - in fact it might have slightly harmed him. Gen3 OU Gengar is one of the most centralizing and diverse threats in any pokemon singles metagame. Having access to Fire punch and ice punch hit from spatk is huge for ADV threats like Flygon, Salamence, Forretress, Skarmory, Metagross, zapdos, jirachi, claydol, magneton, aero, heracross, breloom, etc...
I'm mainly looking at it from a type effectiveness standpoint not really looking at coverage
This isn’t necessarily true because you’re not considering the relative optimization that would occur. To see this, import this set into the damage calc:
Gengar @ Leftovers
Level: 100
Hasty Nature
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
- Sludge Bomb
- Ice Punch
- Fire Punch
- Shadow Ball
Then go and change Gengar’s base Atk stat to 130 and it’s base SpA to 65 (switch them), and make sure to max IVs on both. The reason this is representative is bc we’re directly comparing 2 of its (originally) stat-aligned coverage moves to 2 of its (originally) stat-misaligned STAB moves in this set. Since the moves are all ones whose category switched in later gens (unlike t bolt for example), we can switch the base stats to simulate the predicted change in outcomes based on a (future Gen) switch in stat-alignment and misalignment of these moves relative to each other when used on Gengar in gen 3. You can also do this with moves like hyper beam and thunder punch, but keep in mind that t bolt exists either way (and it won’t lose effectiveness with stat optimizations). Also, sometimes checking hidden power is useful since it’s reasonable to suppose that in a world where gen3 OU had the physical-special split that stuff like hp ice might get run on it.
All things being considered, shadow ball becomes a much stronger threat. And at first, it’s not enough vs a number of the mons you mentioned… but now change the nature to adamant or even lonely (which are just ways to represent subsequent nature reinvestment that might be reasonably expected for some sets). This skews a couple matchups in favor of physical-special split gengar.
Next, check some matchups it might gain favorability in. I’m not that experienced at gen3 OU tbh, so I might be way off here, but mons like starmie, celebi, and milotic come to mind here. I didn’t check if gengar gets ohko’d by their most common sets (which iirc might be the case for ones running psychic) so these might not change but you get the idea.
We’re not done yet. Obviously, we have to compare to normal gengar (with stats as they actually are) and compare the best move’s damage range from the normal set vs the custom set in each matchup (opening two damage calculator tabs side by side is most efficient).
You could spend a long time writing spreadsheet tables to figure out if the math agrees with your statement. I’m not really saying you’re wrong though, just that you *could* be wrong, and this is way to approximate “mathing it out” if you want to find out for yourself. I suspect that its good coverage moves do make an important difference, which means you’ve got a point. However, I also suspect that difference is less impactful than you might be thinking.
The point is that some of its moves get worse, but others get better, and some of its coverage remains unchanged (tbolt, psychic, hp ice, explosion, all status moves), and other than the reinvestment, still are very effective. It might make gengar more rounded actually, but that doesn’t necessarily make it worse.
@@holda2375 It's a really interesting question. With the prevalence of ttar, almost zero psychic types (metagross, jirachi, medicham all are neutral damage), and lack of many good targets (minus starmie and celebi you mentioned) most Gengar probably wouldn't run Shadow Ball in ADV OU if it were on the special side. If we give Gen3 Gengar special shadow ball (change it's type to a neutral type like electric and change shadow balls type to electric) we get things like this:
252 SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 128 HP / 0 SpD Metagross: 143-169 (42.9 - 50.7%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO
where a super effective coverage move like fire punch is a guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Gengar Fire Punch vs. 128 HP / 0 SpD Metagross: 180-212 (54 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I can't speak for later generations but Gengar would lose out for sure in Gen3 ou if there was the physical special split. Losing Fire and Ice punch hitting off the 130 special attack is huge. Both punch moves have very relevant 4x super effective targets (Forretress, Salamence, Flygon) as well as a ridiculous amount of 2x SE targets
Anyways all this to say losing the special punches greatly outweighs getting special shadow ball. At the end of the day we are much better off clicking the SE coverage move.
Someone is a hockey guy
Ya been really enjoying the playoffs this year.