I’m tentatively convinced. Performances of classical repertoire often leave me frustrated and impatient, while the ideal version of the music seems only to live in my head, where the phrases can breathe and react to each other. I think the art of rhetoric works better in music that is not frenetic or overly athletic, and I believe that Beethoven’s art is a highly rhetorical one. I’m discovering a lot about tempo as I compose too: I will often compose and work out slow music at a faster tempo, before slowing it down-my pragmatic reasons being that the emotion is less taxing if I can breeze through it, and it also lets me work more efficiently. I’ve also discovered that Bach played as slowly as a lot his music must be on the classical guitar (my instrument) is now how I prefer to hear it, both in terms of tempo and timbre/tessitura. But it may simply be my taste pragmatically adapting to a technical limitation-that’s always possible. I would also suggest that while some 19th Century studies are marked with a tempo that perhaps should be matched from the beginning, others would place a tempo as a goal, which almost no performers could make musical sense of, and in such a case the number is an ideal trchnical goal appropriate for developing technical ability so that when faced with actual music there will be no limitation except the always vital-if increasingly neglected-one of taste. Sorry to go on so long. You’re doing good stimulating work here, for which there will never be quite a simple answer, but which should continued to be questioned in a spirit of curiosity rather than a defensive inquisition on behalf of the status quo.
Don’t buy into this conspiracy theory, Check out PianoPat, he debunks this conspiracy theory in 5 minutes. Also I find the fact that this guy looks a little genetically defective unappealing
This tendency to slow down your tempos is a very common one for composers. The question "Why is there written so little fast repertoire?" or "Why is most contemporary music so slow?" can perhaps be linked with this tendency. Maybe the fast music, which is often pre-20th century repertoire was not composed to be fast at all. Interesting to contemplate about.
One of the major problems...is that most people don't actually listen to music at all. Which leads them into assumptions on how things should sound. True music...must find its own true sound through pure ears. These are the ears of those open to truly listening to the message inherent.
It is nice, not? Must tell you, it was a really last minute decision, I never tried the webcam to compete with the main cameras before, but when I saw the footage at my computer, ... I was happy as only a child can be :-) . Thank you for the nice words, Wim
I've known and loved the 32 sonatas for over 60 years, and have never heard the Waldstein like this. I have this strange feeling that if this performance had been featured at a sixties rock concert, it wouldn't have seemed out of place - a solo by Keith Emerson, for example.
Discussion at school the next day: "What did you do last night?" "Oh, I stood and turned the score pages while papa played Beethoven on the clavichord." "Okaaaay..." Maar even serieus...fantastisch Wim. Waldenstein gespeeld op clavichord klinkt gewoon prima.
That even would not be a joke... now Sofie is in 'Middelbare school', where they slowly start to realize that her daddy is on TH-cam, but in her class in elementary school, they all knew my channel, some of them watched most videos even, and from time to time, when Sofie was 'in the movie', they watched small excerpts...those young people find it coooooooooool! (and the daddy is proud:-)). And it starts again with Evelien now, she's 6. Dank je voor het mooie compliment!
Tempo seems shockingly slow at first, but one soon adjusts and the benefits are to be able to hear the structuring clearly: a whole new experience emerges. Thanks.
It's actually insane; you hear chords, you hear ideas. It feels less like "just one blurred (admittedly still ingenious) thing" and more like "composition" in its true sense - put together.
This tempo is perfect. The Waldstein became another piece of music, entirely. So much more color and feeling than the rushed interpretations! Thanks Wim!
I actually came across your channel in the first place because I was looking for Beethoven played on harpsichord or clavichord, and I found your recording of Pathetique. That was good, and this Waldstein recording is great. Maybe some people think it's a crazy idea, but the clavichord really is a beautiful instrument that's capable of playing much more than its traditional repertoire. And I think you've proven this more than anyone else.
Thank you so much, Adam! Yes, the clavichord was still very much used at the end of the 18th c, we tend to forget that the top production of both harpsichords and clavichords was somewhere ca 1775 ! Of course Beethoven had the pianoforte in mind here (I've made some Afterthoughts videos on that, the link is in the video), but he was still very much in that classical instrumental feel so to say, having had lessons in Bonn with Neefe, who had a Friederici clavichord (like mine), as dit CPEBach had, and Mozart (and they all sold them as well!), so the culture of these instruments was very close to the 1800 taste, much more than the later, heavier, pianofortes that Graf would built from ca 1820/1825 onwards, that sound really great, but is far from a Walter 1795, what probably what still was what the master had in mind. So, that is one of the great aspects of an unfretted clavichord like mine, apart from its wonderful expressiveness and indescribable closeness while playing, that one can cover almost all (German) music from JSB (and bit before) Thanks again for tuning in, hope to read you more! Wim
The opening bars of Op.53 blast their way out from the 18th Century into the 19th. One of the most revolutionary moments in music history. No wonder he removed the "Andante favori" from it.
Bravo! The sheer number of pieces in your repertoire is amazing. I admit I am not 100% there with these tempos but I'm learning. Your Mozart Rondo in A minor is a mind bender. But convincing; and this is too. I've never played the Waldstein; after hearing this I'll give it a go.
You prove the truth of your point of playing the earlier ones on clavichord and in your slow tempo, because with this one, we hear totally different music and style/tempo.
I have a cd from Celibidache Beethoven Symphony nr. 6. First thing to notice was it's slow tempo. But after several listening and gut hinhorchen , I begin to realize that maestro wanted to give time all the sound from instruments to travel across the hall and the result was a nie dagewesene clarity and each instrument was heard vividly. It is one of my favourite record
AuthenticSound from hinsicht of sound production and the clarity of each phrase I do understand your Ausgangspunkt, i hope I can have the literaturen in which I can verinnerlichen the concept of the metrum and Schlag. From your video war es nicht genug for me. Thank you for your kind reply. 🙋
Hi Wim! Greetings from Peru. I'd love to hear this one on your fortepiano, at this same tempo, played by yourself. I know Alberto already did a very good job, but you have the touch. Your dynamics are otherworldly!!
How wonderful I've never heard this sonata on the clavichord but your playing us just brilliant. It's brought a freshness and beauty to it. Thank you so much for your channel and this piece in particular. Bravo sir!
Hi, a quick question, if I could use your nice quote you were so kind to leave at my channel, to be featured in a book that will accompany the publication of three cd's to celebrate this channel's music production nr 100? Thanks in advance! Wim
You made a REALLY nice sound. I admit when I saw this video notification, got bad prejudgement, but when I listened, well, no words, it sounded very very nice. This is my favorite sonata and I liked very much that experimental result on clavichord You made. I think many people in beethoven's epoch studied this grand sonatas in clavichord because a fortepiano was aways too spensive to many people. Sorry my bad gramatical but I am trying not use a translator. Hugs from Brazil!
As often as I listen to this version I have to say: that tempo sounds way better and makes much more sense than what we believed to be the right version. Thank you very much for your input!
I understand this is presumably not in the "historically accurate" vein of your Beethoven recordings, but I have to say this recording is profound! Truly Beethoven was a classicist, and the way you play gives the impression of a man using classical principals to transcend and break the boundaries of the "classical ideals". Beethoven is his own genre. There's Bach here, Haydn, Mozart, and even ancient musical ideas from the middle ages in this movement. Your clarity and singing tone are fantastic! Thank you for making this available!
I always enjoy these performances of pieces that are typically not played on the clavichord. You really test the limits of the instrument. Thanks for the upload!
Bravo Wim ! Surely a good clavichord in the hands of a master must be a worthy route for music which is so demanding in terms of DRAMA and DYNAMIC RANGE ! Your concert video of the "Pathetique", some time (years?) ago was an eye/ear opener for me as to the possibilities, and you keep on delivering again and again. Thank you ! Bill from deepest Herefordshire,England.
Thank you so much, Bill, we surely would love to do more videos on location, as actually this one was planned since long time. But the clavichord now is prison in home because of the yet to start rerecordings of the partitas, and time is an issue as well. A quick question: did TH-cam deliver you the video I uploaded yesterday? If you would find it, the on on the 100 recordings (and not saw it) you'll know immediately why I ask. YT is playing games (I think) sometimes with its "creators', sending some videos out and others not). Thanks! Wim
Yes Wim, I received your co-producing proposal to celebrate 100 video, Yesterday. And by the way , I think its a lovely and gracious idea, and will be very keen to contribute something........ Its an excuse to go through all the videos from the start ! - though I always find having to make selections, hard. Kind regards Bill.
Dear Wim, The clavichord does very well to the first theme and to the bridges and as well as to the last development of the first theme after which the second appears for a short treatment and then the first theme appears. The second theme is more gentle so it takes me some time to get used to it as it is played on the clavichord. However, comparing to other composers, the somewhat harsh sound of the clavichord does very well to this Beethoven's masterpiece. I have been enjoying your performance of this genius composition for several times now and I am very grateful for the privilege to hear you playing. Thank you so much Mr. Wim Winters.
Awesome performance!! I really love hearing my favorite pieces played at a slower tempo than is common, I feel the music more strongly. It reminds me a little of Claudio Arrau, only on a clavichord!
Wow those bass chords, nearly marching... Very glad to hear this sonata on the clavichord ! Suits very well to the temper of Beethoven's music. Would be interesting to hear the Tempest sonata 3rd movement ! Thanks for your well done dedication Wim !
Antoine DECKEUR I doubt Beethoven did much playing on clavichordz, BUTT I have read dat he would break stringz, whilst passionately playing on da early pianoz of his childhood. I read, he wuz a major reason 4 da ntroduction n more advanced pianoz. Capable of surviving his pounding, forte xcursionz, tantrumz, &/or xpressionz.
Another outstanding performance, Wim! While I'm reticent to reply in this fashion on TH-cam, it must be said that Beethoven's keyboard music previous to 1803/4 was conceived of with a five octave range in mind, just like the instrument we seen Wim playing. It maybe hard for many to believe, but at the time this sonata was composed, clavichords JUST LIKE THIS ONE would have been commonplace in the homes of any German speaking professional musician. Yes, it was a period of enormous change- the harpsichord was swiftly vanishing in the early 19th century, and the fortepiano on the rise, yet we know that. D.G. Turk and many of Beethoven's contemporaries played his music on clavichord, and that fact is well documented! (I believe Wim posted a video on Turk in relation to Beethoven's music...) So... In 1804, there would have nothing unusual about this performance! The clavichord was still a integral part of musical life in the German speaking countries, throughout Beethoven's lifetime and a bit afterwards. It's important to remember- new clavichords were still being built in Germany and Austria right into the 1840's, often by the same makers building fortepianos. These instruments weren't made to play Baroque music, but the music of the era.
Very nice legato in the second subject! Mozart apparently composed Magic Flute on his clavichord in 1791. There would have been some clavichords hanging about in Vienna in 1802 - not everyone would been able to afford the cost or space of a new fortepiano!
it is, though Beethoven (and late Mozart) aimed much at the pianoforte for their public words. Good clavichords were very much sought after, and in countries like Sweden, built up to 1840 with big 6 octaves instruments
One of the most excruciating listening experiences I can remember. The dragging tempo. it looses all of the fiery character Beethoven's known for. And why the heck choose the clavichord to make your deranged point, when we know that by this time the composer was absolutely fascinated with the most recent advances in the pianoforte construction, namely in the Èrard workshop? It's painstakingly hard to listen to this video till the end. Wrong, deceiving and the best proof that your flat-earth like theory is completely demented.
The tempo question is one thing. I think it works at this tempo and you're probably right that the original metronome markings have led people to play it far too fast. But I don't buy the clavichord idea. It was written for piano and, more specifically, probably written at the Érard piano that Beethoven had received from the makers in 1803. It's not far-fetched to suggest that the developments in construction demonstrated by these fine pianos would have inspired the writing. It also coincides perfectly with the time of this work's conception; between 1802 and 1805.
I played the String Trios. There is one movement obviously composed for a special kind of fingerings to make the thing fast. Beethoven was a good violinist , too. He knew what he wrote. The other movements are written for normal fingerings. We play it in your tempo so that the violin can sing and the others make the sound. It works. We would even have in mind that some gracements in the violin should not hurry and play them melodical. Even then, dont let just the fingers fall. It takes some time to play it all out. It is like singing.
An excellent job again, Wim. I always admire your interpretations. I was inspired by your performances of Mr. Papazafeiropoulos's works to begin work on a classical sonata of my own, structured as Allegro, Adagio (canon, possibly), and Scherzo (a fugue in 3/8). I've begun work on the first and third movements, and am waiting until I finish them to construct a piece appropriate to bridge the two.
I just love the filming. if one does not look attentively, it almost seems as if the outer part (the close-in on the strings) are the walls of a church, and everything is being filmed from the roof. Great optical illusion.
Thank you David, I was thinking on you when I, last minute, decided to add the webcam to capture the repeated notes, not even sure it could, if only from far, compete with the Panasonics. But, once I saw the footage, I was really happy, I love to see that mechanical view along with the music.
Well well. I would never have thought it would work. But it does. And it's a revelation. Just goes to show how hidebound our thinking about established repertoire can be. Thank you!
Finding back speech, I'd say it feels about as earth-shattering as early Early Music movement recordings must have felt for people who were already alive back then. (I'm 33, for me the Early Music movement was always there.)
And now you made me speechless... thank you so much, this is really one of the nicest comments someone gave to me... My day is ok now :-) very best wishes, Wim
Artists must be daring. A downside of the classical music worlds striving for refinement is that rarely somebody dares to do something crazy, also partially because playing music is already such a vulnerable thing. I'm pretty sure that this is an important reason why many otherwise well educated people find classical music boring, in many cases classical music is far away from being as existential as it could be. We painfully miss the uncertainty-aspect of art in classical music, the Early Music movement sometimes provides it (next to goodies like not forcing equal temperament onto everything), and this recording is not only exciting and pleasurable to hear, I think it will get its little place in music history because it is daring AND great. Like good art. (For instance the inventions are great but not daring.) Have a good day! Benjamin
Los maestros escriben música en un sentido puro y da lo mismo si lo tocas en un clavicordio pianoforte o sintetizador o un stick...va a sonar bien porque en el sentido musical lo que vale es la composición....
Just beautiful ! The Waldstein on clavichord is very interesting and that's bring new ideas of interpretation ! These camera angle are very interesting but we don't see your hands ^^ ( it doesn't really matter ) ... Sorry for my english ^^ Théotime from France
Hi Thémotime, thank you for the nice words! Most of the times, you'll see my hands, in the Cramer etudes series, even from very close and different angles, but i wanted to do something special here with the repeated notes. Often it is, when postproduce, "l'embarras du choix..." Thanks again, Wim
At this tempo you have time to appreciate all the twists and turns of Beethoven's thought process, and thematic progress. There is plenty to keep one interested, which excessive speed obscures.
Interesting that this is the "slower" version, but it goes by much more quickly than a typical performance. Must be enjoying this version a lot more :)
Great idea! One can envisage Beethoven late at night playing the Waldestein on his own clavichord or even putting it down on paper as he was composing it... Win, which clavichord is this one? Is it any louder than the most clavichords? I noticed that it is quite larger then most I have seen? Who built it?
That is impossible, only technical the chords there does not allow you constant use of perfect 'classic' technique, eg fingers in a curve, contact with the keys on the front, etc. And one needs the sustaining pedal! Hammerklavier is on the waiting list for the new pianoforte to come hopefully this year! th-cam.com/video/RC_MjshZ_gY/w-d-xo.html
Wim, another excellent performance! You might be able to play the Hammerklavier on a tangent piano, with all its silvery overtones. Something to contemplate . . .
Who is building your hammerklavier? Looking forward to videos on that! I must say that clavichords were still being built way past 1800 and as far as i know any "clavier" sonata was played on whatever clavier that had the range for it. Only until Beethoven's Sonata 29, op 106 was the issue of specific instrument.
Thank you so much, glad you liked this! Joris Potvlieghe is building the piano, we had been talking on that for a long time. I have made some videos on the building process, in the very beginning (you find them by searching for pianoforte on the YT page of my channel), but he asked -understandably- to wait a bit until things were a bit more advanced. The project was put on hold for some months, is now again on full speed, and normally from September on, I cover it as much as I can. Joris' workshop is in kilometers (150)not so far from where I live, but Brussels makes it in weekdays almost impossible to drive to it. best wishes, Wim
Now that is very interesting! We visited Joris workshop years ago, where I had hoped to order a clavichord, sadly the financing didn't work out, but was a nice trip to Belgium! Very much looking forward to that piano of yours then!
Just love the camera angle!!!! Had trouble adjusting to the slow tempo. Is that a limitation of the clavichord or just a personal choice? It seems to me Beethoven wanted the piece to flow in a more open rhythm that this tempo divides up...
Thank you David! There will be two Afterthoughts on this recording, talking also on tempo and notation. I am convinced that my tempo is on the edge of being too fast regarding to notation, but indeed, it often is played much faster, as if... the master would have used 16th notes...not 8th's !
Would he? I'm not trying to argue a point, I'm struggling with the concept. I don't understand why a simpler to write note value that also looks less cluttering on the page couldn't serve well for an up tempo piece. Of course, such leisure measures are common for Romantic composers (ie. Rachmoninoff's Prelude C#m Presto section is not buried in ink) but did baroque/classic/borderline composers have an understanding that one adhered to a busily covered page if one wanted very quick playing of them? I've always tended to let the flow of the melody line and how it interacts with the stated tempo & the mood it implied as indications to find my "happy middle" for tempo but, perhaps, I have erred. You're the expert so it's an honest question, not intended to challenge you.
O, definitely! Although there is nothing one can 'proof', but the fact that there were notation agreements, not by "law", but known. Understandably, and in their interest, because what else did a composer had to make sure his music would be understood by those who he never would have the chance to "explain" what he meant? So, there is no comparison at all with composers like Rachmaninov to be made. From somewhere mid 1850, the tempo ordinario kind of notation (or starting point), was left behind slowly. So, if Bach writes a piece with "no tempo-indication", he assumes you understand notation, tempo ordinario, affect, etc. As did Beethoven (he knew CPEBach's Versuch very well, even Czerny had to read that first before taking lessons with him).
Tempo Ordinario is easily enough translated but not a musical concept my teachers ever considered worth teaching me. Would a Google search be worth the time to learn the rules of the method or do I need to get that from a teacher?
In two words: tempo ordinario is (from memory and related to what Jacques van Oortmerssen teached me), a normal 4/4 (C) bar structure, with 16th notes as fasted structural note value and overall no harmonic changes faster than per 4th note (I believe, must make a section on that, but to be very accurate and also related to """sources"""", it is more complicated than it essentially is. You easily will know pieces in that structure. The tempo of that is around the second per 4th note, or a bit faster (allegro) or a bit slower (adagio). In JSB time, more and more additions came (words), so things were messed up a bit because of more nuanced writing. So, if you connect Beethoven to that tradition (which he was), a C-bar structure has four distinct counts. In modern performances of that piece, you only hear 2, so it is played at double speed (this is very short and leaving out much). The flow you miss, is, to me, a kind of Wagnerian feel people tend to want in early music, but back then, they were (I think) more into a metrical feel of heavy and light beats, much more than to drag the 'tension' over the bow of the sentence. But again, this is not something to quote me on on national classical radio, but the basics are understandable I guess, not?
Really great performance. Loved to hear it at a slower tempo. I’ve always been on board with the tempo Arrau takes. Question: Any reasoning why you play the opening call and response melody in the right hand in a different rhythm? They sound like triplets to me? It almost made me tune out early on, but I was VERY HAPPY I stayed ! Great job
Hi. Very well done sir! Just a question concerning the tempo (not the usual "too slow?" one!). How would you play the octave passage of the third movement with a "slower" (according to today's custom) tempo? Czerny tells us to play it glissando, which would be impossible with a slower tempo. (I know that the fortepiano has lighter mechanics).
In that tempo the piece is way more beautifull and human like no robot-like (double tempo) if i could say that... I think that we should imagine the times back then, there was no internet, no cars, so just imagine how slow the life was.., if some person was able to go to another country, he must have been an aristocrat or a big merchant, otherwise no way, or the person would risk his life for the sake of doing that (i'm talking only about going to the country next door by your own), nowadays if you are a waiter you can save some money and fly to Australia just to pop up for a visit.. that explains a lot.. in case of tempo as well.. People were living close to the nature and the societies were close to God, close to churches that were providing civilization, and that gave births to so many beautifull musicians.. you name them. Without Catholic Church there is no Europe culture, there is no art at all, in the place of nations wich provide the law for its citizens, there would have been some wild tribes. killing one another without any mercy and humanity. The power and food would have been most important and nobody would care about art, not to even think about writing it down for further generations. Without Catholic Church which generated Mozart, Beethoven, Palestrina, there is even no sheet music. lol . As it came from neumatic (4lines, nota quadrata, and so on) manuscripts from Benedict Monks from Solesmes back in XI-XII century,.. In the time of Bach and later Mozart, Beethoven everything was for the glory of God, just read the manuscripts, where they wrote almost on every piece - ,,for the glory of God'' ,, thank God'' and so on , check Haydn, Bach, .. etc.. well, that proofs that we, as a humanity and nowaday generation are way too far away from God, so the music is crap, the art became crap, and ,,artists'' are just boastful coxcombs selling themselves everywhere they can, just to grab some penny, talking so loud about everything they've done.. We're living in the last days imho... May Lord Jesus and His Blessed Mother have mercy upon us.. ..but to go back to your performance mr Wim, it sounds astonishing, it gives the time to amuse, rethink the intentions and feelings the writer had, when he was writing it. Nowadays ppl are way too hectic, so the music became hectic as well.. I have also noticed that, the way you played that wonderfull piece, regardless the point that one can understand the ,,movement'' , it gives a real oportunity for very talented musician to copy it by ear, like eg. the great Mozart and other perfect eared musicians done with the music they've heard. Plus in that tempo you can hear the Beethoven brilliant corners very well.. man that was inspiring. Keep it up. God bless.
Thanks Piotr, great to read your thoughts here. I've some playlists with Beethoven and Mozart and Haydn in case you would listen a bit more : th-cam.com/play/PLackZ_5a6IWWBRcIS328l5aQd8PkzmO61.html or th-cam.com/play/PLackZ_5a6IWXP9ml6qsDt1bMv7QFpvbaM.html or th-cam.com/play/PLackZ_5a6IWXhAglLi2-PLwj_3lXd5bEt.html
Piotr Przydryga remember this is also the time of the Protestant Wars,,,(Catholic versus non Catholic Christians) European Christians Conquering the World. I'm Born Catholic but do not believe. There are many good things about "Catholic" but open your eyes.
Piotr Przydryga also The Catholic Church paid for the Musicians to entertain,,, who would have gone to Church if there had been no music in the service.
would you try some Chopin? but I think that romance classical music might not fit for clavichord. Chopin, Ravel, Liszt, Rachmaninoff, they all do great keyboard performance on piano. at this point, I'm pretty worried about limitation of clavichord
It won't work, just as you write. The hand positions required for Chopin (and later Beethoven already), are not fitting within the needed closed classical hand position (most of the time) to make the clavichord sound. Plus, the sustaining pedal is a key element in music of Chopin's time!
Cimrosa, Clementi, and any other composers writing works for fortepiano and clavecin may be the only way for you. The other way is to compose something else yourself. I hope that day will be soon. Ha ha
O, there is no lack off music for these types of clavichords? Basically, from JSBach to Haydn/Mozart and all in between, more the German areas than the Southern countries, but even taking all 1st class music of that gigantic pile, would be too much for me to play in my life. And there is pianoforte to come early next year for all of Beethoven's work, and next to that composers like our Greek friend Kostas is composing very nice pieces today (for the clavichord) in Mozart's style. You might have heard some of that? And Clementi works great on clavichord, I've done several works by him here on the channel! thanks for tuning in! Wim
Some say Schubert had a clavichord to play and compose on, which could be possible. His music however is very hard to make work on clav. Perhaps smaller works as you mention, I'll try it one day!
While others of your expirements with "authentic" tempi totally miss the mark for me, this is actually not that far off. For example your rendition of the Chopin Scherzo No.2 I had to put at 1.5x speed to get the music moving where it needs to be. This here totally works at 1.25x speed.
A well-intentioned but ultimately unsuccessful musical experiment in my view. Odd accents, obtuse stretchings of tempi, and inappropriately anachronistic Baroque flourishes in this late-Classical-era masterpiece of Beethoven betray the spirit of a forward-looking work that should convey gleaming brightness. Instead, this clavichord interpretation transforms the Waldstein into a sinister, diabolical mass that is almost a complete antithesis of its intended artistic narrative. Take, for example, the famous opening pulsation of C major chords. They should be bouncy and mysterious but NEVER grotesque. Instead, we hear a tempo-reduced string of accented hammerings that render what should be an expression of anticipatory excitement into something that would not be out of place in a death march. What about the cadenza-like section in the coda? Here, we are given flamboyant turns, trills, and mordants that would be more at home in a piece from 1740 than one from 1804. Is the musician here seriously intending to impose the spirit of Bach’s Toccata unto one of the most innovative and important works of Beethoven’s middle period? If anything, this work should evoke the spirit of simplistic Mozart, not ornamented Handel. The danger of over-engaging in the current obsession within the classical music world surrounding “period instruments” and “historically informed performance”, is the tendency to read history backwards as a mismatched picture. We generalize, employ clichés, and in the process devalue the true spirit of a composer’s life and work. The result is old music that sounds even older than it actually is.
Thanks for listening and sharing your thoughts, John, they are well appreciated! And understandable as well, since this performance is light years from what we today is in our collective memory. Allow me a few words, not to my defense, the recording should stand on its own, but to clarify. The accentuated way of playing actually is very clearly documented, also by Beethoven. It still is even strange for me to realize, reading his comments at the Cramer etudes, what the implication of what he demands here (as a general way of playing) would have in his own music. That's going even further than what I did. The tempo, for that there is no doubt I believe the double beat is to be applied. There are other videos I've made on that. Just think about the fact Beethoven uses 8th notes, only what that implies as a notation for the overall tempo. Also, I'm far from the dogmatic finger pointed period instrument player. I feel so bad about the fact that that HIP movement, just by acting so over the top self opiniated often, kind of has lead to a natural reaction like yours on what simply is a performance that has the sole purpose of sharing beauty, an idea... not in the least wanting to point the 'wrongness' of other performances. I'd hate the fact if I came through like that... I'm a big fan of Glenn Gould, to say something, just to give you a perspective. But find it fascinating to experiment and research as well. And last but not least: I do look from the baroque to 1804 here. You mix both looking back and looking forward. This recording, as much as it can lead to disagreement, if it does one thing, is putting Beethoven back in his tradition from where he came from, from having lessons in Bonn with neefe, at his clavichord, Neefe, being a 2d generation Bach student. The pulsations of the opening chord are hard to be given at my clavichord, if my new pianoforte would have been ready (it comes in a few months), I would have used that instrument. But the steady pulse in eight notes give a mysterious land scape out of which suddenly a bird rises to sing. It is not, I believe, as in today's tempo, a hurdle of horses running the prairie. Love to read you more in the future! Wim
I have to say that i agree with you. I personally did not enjoy the overly slow opening that seemed - in your words - grotesque. however, i nonetheless appreciate hearing it on a different instrument.
This is really tough to play on the clavichord.The very end of the third movement is almost impossible.I think I should go back to the French Suites on my clavichord.
how about x2 :) "How do you change the speed of a TH-cam video? To do this, simply click on the gears icon in the video you are watching, and choose speed. This will allow you to speed up or slow down the video you are watching. If you do not see this option, you may not have HTML 5 enabled. Go to th-cam.com/users/html5 to make sure you have this enabled."
I just can not see myself as a fan of Beethoven's piano sonatas on the Clavichord or any other pre-piano instrument. Whereas JS Bach's music has an uncanny ability to sound great in any version and on any instrument, Beethoven's piano music, the big pieces, simply do not. For me they don't transfer to a smaller and older type of keyboard. For me, they sound anachronistic. They are interesting to hear only because you've managed to play it on a much smaller keyboard. The clunky keyboard action does sound almost comical when certain passages are played. Oh well. I like the clavichord but I don't enjoy this type of music on it. Can you imagine Debussy or Chopin on it? I can't.
I understand, but of course, Debussy wrote for a different instrument. Even Beethoven's Walter was much closer to my clavichord than to a Steinway. It is perception and habit as well of course. But the gap with today's sound is big, I have no problem with that!
Not authentic. Beethoven did not write for this instrument. He was already familiar with modern (to him, of course) pianos with an extended range and breadth of expression. It is not enough to be controversial if the mode of expression is inappropriate.
During the early 19th century, a lot of different clavier instruments were still in use. The modern fortepianos and later hammerklaviers were absolutely used by Beethoven, though he probably played the clavichord as a child. He also kept a clavichord to the year 1822 (at least!), Wim did a video on it. While I agree that this sonata is better suited for fortepianos and modern grands, this is a simple experiment by Wim. Beethoven may not have played it on the clavichord, but others might have!
Beethoven composed on piano, playing these works on clavichord is wrong and even if Beethoven did play or compose something on clavichord was just occasionally, he composed at the piano and for piano. You should play only composers up to Mozart on clavichord, better still only Baroque music which has already lots of beautiful music to be performed on clavichord or harpsichord.
Hi Crescenzo, I wouldn't say anything is right or wrong, but of course, in this period, the fortepiano was very prominent and the clavichord is pushed here to its limits. The instrument was still around in Beethoven's life however, till the end of his life. Mendelssohn had a Silbermann clav, Brahms had the Haydn Hofman, and even as late as Bruckner, he gave lessons at the clavichord. But you're right, this is basically a piano piece. it was recorded as a follow-up of the video on tempo : th-cam.com/video/2yd7LWi4wus/w-d-xo.html
This is a joke, right? Please tell me this is a joke? You’re not serious, are you? I mean, it’s like playing Beethoven’s Ninth Symphony on a kazoo. It sounds awful! I mean really, really awful! Beethoven wrote the Waldstein and the Appasionata sonatas after he got a brand new piano - a larger piano with an extended range and dynamic power. These sonatas celebrate the power and range of the new piano. They were not written for a clavichord which is a toy compared to Beethoven’s new piano. So if it’s authenticity you’re after, you’re way off. This isn’t authentic at all and it’s pitiful. So you’ve had your little joke. Ha, ha! Trick or treat and all that. But please - really - stop it. Just stop it.
Jeez man, cool down... I played the Waldstein on my clavichord because my pianoforte was not ready... but please check your sources as well, Beethoven always had a clavichord near to him, even in 1825 it's documented to be tuned. And many of the earlier works go really nicely on the clavichord. Even Chopin was trained with clavichords close! So if that sets you off, it separates you from Beethoven's world, so yes, authentic if you like it or not, but that's the things, we rather live with our created fantasy picture of historic figures than really want to find out what they were like.
I’m tentatively convinced. Performances of classical repertoire often leave me frustrated and impatient, while the ideal version of the music seems only to live in my head, where the phrases can breathe and react to each other. I think the art of rhetoric works better in music that is not frenetic or overly athletic, and I believe that Beethoven’s art is a highly rhetorical one. I’m discovering a lot about tempo as I compose too: I will often compose and work out slow music at a faster tempo, before slowing it down-my pragmatic reasons being that the emotion is less taxing if I can breeze through it, and it also lets me work more efficiently. I’ve also discovered that Bach played as slowly as a lot his music must be on the classical guitar (my instrument) is now how I prefer to hear it, both in terms of tempo and timbre/tessitura. But it may simply be my taste pragmatically adapting to a technical limitation-that’s always possible. I would also suggest that while some 19th Century studies are marked with a tempo that perhaps should be matched from the beginning, others would place a tempo as a goal, which almost no performers could make musical sense of, and in such a case the number is an ideal trchnical goal appropriate for developing technical ability so that when faced with actual music there will be no limitation except the always vital-if increasingly neglected-one of taste. Sorry to go on so long. You’re doing good stimulating work here, for which there will never be quite a simple answer, but which should continued to be questioned in a spirit of curiosity rather than a defensive inquisition on behalf of the status quo.
Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts here, was great to read them!
Don’t buy into this conspiracy theory, Check out PianoPat, he debunks this conspiracy theory in 5 minutes. Also I find the fact that this guy looks a little genetically defective unappealing
This tendency to slow down your tempos is a very common one for composers. The question "Why is there written so little fast repertoire?" or "Why is most contemporary music so slow?" can perhaps be linked with this tendency. Maybe the fast music, which is often pre-20th century repertoire was not composed to be fast at all. Interesting to contemplate about.
Brilliant observations.
One of the major problems...is that most people don't actually listen to music at all. Which leads them into assumptions on how things should sound.
True music...must find its own true sound through pure ears. These are the ears of those open to truly listening to the message inherent.
Easily the best clavichord angle video, ever.
It is nice, not? Must tell you, it was a really last minute decision, I never tried the webcam to compete with the main cameras before, but when I saw the footage at my computer, ... I was happy as only a child can be :-) .
Thank you for the nice words,
Wim
I've known and loved the 32 sonatas for over 60 years, and have never heard the Waldstein like this. I have this strange feeling that if this performance had been featured at a sixties rock concert, it wouldn't have seemed out of place - a solo by Keith Emerson, for example.
Discussion at school the next day:
"What did you do last night?"
"Oh, I stood and turned the score pages while papa played Beethoven on the clavichord."
"Okaaaay..."
Maar even serieus...fantastisch Wim. Waldenstein gespeeld op clavichord klinkt gewoon prima.
That even would not be a joke... now Sofie is in 'Middelbare school', where they slowly start to realize that her daddy is on TH-cam, but in her class in elementary school, they all knew my channel, some of them watched most videos even, and from time to time, when Sofie was 'in the movie', they watched small excerpts...those young people find it coooooooooool! (and the daddy is proud:-)). And it starts again with Evelien now, she's 6. Dank je voor het mooie compliment!
If my dad did waldstein on a clavichord, i'd be so proud
2:27 *My favorite part of this Sonata.*
Tempo seems shockingly slow at first, but one soon adjusts and the benefits are to be able to hear the structuring clearly: a whole new experience emerges. Thanks.
Thanks Nicky, great to read!
It's actually insane; you hear chords, you hear ideas. It feels less like "just one blurred (admittedly still ingenious) thing" and more like "composition" in its true sense - put together.
This tempo is perfect. The Waldstein became another piece of music, entirely. So much more color and feeling than the rushed interpretations! Thanks Wim!
Thank you! Will rerecord this on the new Fritz pianoforte soon
I actually came across your channel in the first place because I was looking for Beethoven played on harpsichord or clavichord, and I found your recording of Pathetique. That was good, and this Waldstein recording is great. Maybe some people think it's a crazy idea, but the clavichord really is a beautiful instrument that's capable of playing much more than its traditional repertoire. And I think you've proven this more than anyone else.
Thank you so much, Adam! Yes, the clavichord was still very much used at the end of the 18th c, we tend to forget that the top production of both harpsichords and clavichords was somewhere ca 1775 ! Of course Beethoven had the pianoforte in mind here (I've made some Afterthoughts videos on that, the link is in the video), but he was still very much in that classical instrumental feel so to say, having had lessons in Bonn with Neefe, who had a Friederici clavichord (like mine), as dit CPEBach had, and Mozart (and they all sold them as well!), so the culture of these instruments was very close to the 1800 taste, much more than the later, heavier, pianofortes that Graf would built from ca 1820/1825 onwards, that sound really great, but is far from a Walter 1795, what probably what still was what the master had in mind. So, that is one of the great aspects of an unfretted clavichord like mine, apart from its wonderful expressiveness and indescribable closeness while playing, that one can cover almost all (German) music from JSB (and bit before)
Thanks again for tuning in, hope to read you more!
Wim
I like the view on the tangents, we can both see and hear the form of the notes and their articulation
The opening bars of Op.53 blast their way out from the 18th Century into the 19th. One of the most revolutionary moments in music history. No wonder he removed the "Andante favori" from it.
Bravo! The sheer number of pieces in your repertoire is amazing. I admit I am not 100% there with these tempos but I'm learning. Your Mozart Rondo in A minor is a mind bender. But convincing; and this is too. I've never played the Waldstein; after hearing this I'll give it a go.
Thanks Fidel, great to read! You've seen this video? th-cam.com/video/2yd7LWi4wus/w-d-xo.html
You prove the truth of your point of playing the earlier ones on clavichord and in your slow tempo, because with this one, we hear totally different music and style/tempo.
I did never really apprecciate this sonata until your interpretation...thank you, i discovered a new Beethoven
That's a huge compliment, thank you!
I have a cd from Celibidache Beethoven Symphony nr. 6. First thing to notice was it's slow tempo. But after several listening and gut hinhorchen , I begin to realize that maestro wanted to give time all the sound from instruments to travel across the hall and the result was a nie dagewesene clarity and each instrument was heard vividly. It is one of my favourite record
thanks for sharing this!
AuthenticSound from hinsicht of sound production and the clarity of each phrase I do understand your Ausgangspunkt, i hope I can have the literaturen in which I can verinnerlichen the concept of the metrum and Schlag. From your video war es nicht genug for me. Thank you for your kind reply. 🙋
Hi Wim! Greetings from Peru. I'd love to hear this one on your fortepiano, at this same tempo, played by yourself. I know Alberto already did a very good job, but you have the touch. Your dynamics are otherworldly!!
Thanks! I had to promise Alberto to also record it on fp...so I will!
Ill tell you that I wont ever believed this was something familiar. It's brand new sound and in your generous hands it's absolutely phenomenal.
Great to read Steven!
How wonderful I've never heard this sonata on the clavichord but your playing us just brilliant. It's brought a freshness and beauty to it. Thank you so much for your channel and this piece in particular. Bravo sir!
And thank you for listening, and these nice words, really appreciated!
Wim
Hi, a quick question, if I could use your nice quote you were so kind to leave at my channel, to be featured in a book that will accompany the publication of three cd's to celebrate this channel's music production nr 100? Thanks in advance!
Wim
AuthenticSound of course, sir. Happy for you to do that.
You have convinced me. The opening tempo makes so much more sense, and allows the drama more room for expression.
You made a REALLY nice sound. I admit when I saw this video notification, got bad prejudgement, but when I listened, well, no words, it sounded very very nice. This is my favorite sonata and I liked very much that experimental result on clavichord You made. I think many people in beethoven's epoch studied this grand sonatas in clavichord because a fortepiano was aways too spensive to many people. Sorry my bad gramatical but I am trying not use a translator.
Hugs from Brazil!
Your English is just fine, Ian! And thank you for sharing your personal reaction to this indeed risky recording of Beethoven!
w.
As often as I listen to this version I have to say: that tempo sounds way better and makes much more sense than what we believed to be the right version.
Thank you very much for your input!
Great to read, thanks for listening!
The best interpretation I have ever heard. And believe me: I have heard hundreds of interpretations! Thank you, maestro.
Wow, thank you!
I understand this is presumably not in the "historically accurate" vein of your Beethoven recordings, but I have to say this recording is profound! Truly Beethoven was a classicist, and the way you play gives the impression of a man using classical principals to transcend and break the boundaries of the "classical ideals". Beethoven is his own genre. There's Bach here, Haydn, Mozart, and even ancient musical ideas from the middle ages in this movement. Your clarity and singing tone are fantastic! Thank you for making this available!
My favorite Beethoven Sonata! I would have never thought it could fit the clavichord so well. Excellent playing, Wim!
Thank you so much, Harrison, I certainly will play it on the pianoforte again, with the other parts as well.
w.
I always enjoy these performances of pieces that are typically not played on the clavichord. You really test the limits of the instrument. Thanks for the upload!
And thank you so much for listening and tuning in!
Bravo Wim ! Surely a good clavichord in the hands of a master must be a worthy route for
music which is so demanding in terms of DRAMA and DYNAMIC RANGE ! Your concert video of the "Pathetique", some time (years?) ago was an eye/ear opener for me as to
the possibilities, and you keep on delivering again and again. Thank you !
Bill from deepest Herefordshire,England.
Thank you so much, Bill, we surely would love to do more videos on location, as actually this one was planned since long time. But the clavichord now is prison in home because of the yet to start rerecordings of the partitas, and time is an issue as well.
A quick question: did TH-cam deliver you the video I uploaded yesterday? If you would find it, the on on the 100 recordings (and not saw it) you'll know immediately why I ask. YT is playing games (I think) sometimes with its "creators', sending some videos out and others not). Thanks!
Wim
Yes Wim, I received your co-producing proposal to celebrate 100
video, Yesterday. And by the way , I think its a lovely and gracious
idea, and will be very keen to contribute something........ Its an excuse to go through all the videos from the start ! - though I always find
having to make selections, hard.
Kind regards
Bill.
Thank you so much, Bill, for giving me this feedback!
Dear Wim, The clavichord does very well to the first theme and to the bridges and as well as to the last development of the first theme after which the second appears for a short treatment and then the first theme appears. The second theme is more gentle so it takes me some time to get used to it as it is played on the clavichord. However, comparing to other composers, the somewhat harsh sound of the clavichord does very well to this Beethoven's masterpiece. I have been enjoying your performance of this genius composition for several times now and I am very grateful for the privilege to hear you playing. Thank you so much Mr. Wim Winters.
Thank you so much Eytan, for listening and for the nice words!
Awesome performance!! I really love hearing my favorite pieces played at a slower tempo than is common, I feel the music more strongly. It reminds me a little of Claudio Arrau, only on a clavichord!
Thanks, nice compliment to get!
Wow those bass chords, nearly marching... Very glad to hear this sonata on the clavichord ! Suits very well to the temper of Beethoven's music. Would be interesting to hear the Tempest sonata 3rd movement ! Thanks for your well done dedication Wim !
Antoine DECKEUR
Don't u mean, Beethovenz temper?
LOL!!!
Antoine DECKEUR
I doubt Beethoven did much playing on clavichordz, BUTT I have read dat he would break stringz, whilst passionately playing on da early pianoz of his childhood. I read, he wuz a major reason 4 da ntroduction n more advanced pianoz. Capable of surviving his pounding, forte xcursionz, tantrumz, &/or xpressionz.
This man calls himself Wim Nonsense.
Another outstanding performance, Wim!
While I'm reticent to reply in this fashion on TH-cam, it must be said that Beethoven's keyboard music previous to 1803/4 was conceived of with a five octave range in mind, just like the instrument we seen Wim playing. It maybe hard for many to believe, but at the time this sonata was composed, clavichords JUST LIKE THIS ONE would have been commonplace in the homes of any German speaking professional musician.
Yes, it was a period of enormous change- the harpsichord was swiftly vanishing in the early 19th century, and the fortepiano on the rise, yet we know that. D.G. Turk and many of Beethoven's contemporaries played his music on clavichord, and that fact is well documented! (I believe Wim posted a video on Turk in relation to Beethoven's music...)
So... In 1804, there would have nothing unusual about this performance! The clavichord was still a integral part of musical life in the German speaking countries, throughout Beethoven's lifetime and a bit afterwards. It's important to remember- new clavichords were still being built in Germany and Austria right into the 1840's, often by the same makers building fortepianos. These instruments weren't made to play Baroque music, but the music of the era.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts here!
Very nice legato in the second subject! Mozart apparently composed Magic Flute on his clavichord in 1791. There would have been some clavichords hanging about in Vienna in 1802 - not everyone would been able to afford the cost or space of a new fortepiano!
it is, though Beethoven (and late Mozart) aimed much at the pianoforte for their public words. Good clavichords were very much sought after, and in countries like Sweden, built up to 1840 with big 6 octaves instruments
My favourite beethoven piece, thank you
One of the most excruciating listening experiences I can remember. The dragging tempo. it looses all of the fiery character Beethoven's known for. And why the heck choose the clavichord to make your deranged point, when we know that by this time the composer was absolutely fascinated with the most recent advances in the pianoforte construction, namely in the Èrard workshop? It's painstakingly hard to listen to this video till the end. Wrong, deceiving and the best proof that your flat-earth like theory is completely demented.
text book example of being conditioned 👌
as always, great interpretation. thanks wim.
thank you
The tempo question is one thing. I think it works at this tempo and you're probably right that the original metronome markings have led people to play it far too fast. But I don't buy the clavichord idea. It was written for piano and, more specifically, probably written at the Érard piano that Beethoven had received from the makers in 1803. It's not far-fetched to suggest that the developments in construction demonstrated by these fine pianos would have inspired the writing. It also coincides perfectly with the time of this work's conception; between 1802 and 1805.
This is better than i thought! This works very well and it 'gives light' in some passages!
Thanks!
your channel is a TREASURE!! thank you for your amazing work!!!!
I played the String Trios. There is one movement obviously composed for a special kind of fingerings to make the thing fast. Beethoven was a good violinist , too. He knew what he wrote.
The other movements are written for normal fingerings. We play it in your tempo so that the violin can sing and the others make the sound. It works.
We would even have in mind that some gracements in the violin should not hurry and play them melodical. Even then, dont let just the fingers fall. It takes some time to play it all out. It is like singing.
An excellent job again, Wim. I always admire your interpretations. I was inspired by your performances of Mr. Papazafeiropoulos's works to begin work on a classical sonata of my own, structured as Allegro, Adagio (canon, possibly), and Scherzo (a fugue in 3/8). I've begun work on the first and third movements, and am waiting until I finish them to construct a piece appropriate to bridge the two.
Wonderful to hear this personal note, thank you!
best wishes,
Wim
I just love the filming. if one does not look attentively, it almost seems as if the outer part (the close-in on the strings) are the walls of a church, and everything is being filmed from the roof. Great optical illusion.
Great you liked this!
Beautiful interpretation of one of my personal favorite Beethoven pieces of music. Love the camera experiments too Wim.
Thank you David, I was thinking on you when I, last minute, decided to add the webcam to capture the repeated notes, not even sure it could, if only from far, compete with the Panasonics. But, once I saw the footage, I was really happy, I love to see that mechanical view along with the music.
Yes I agree. And I really appreciate your willingness to try new things with your filming.
Well well. I would never have thought it would work. But it does. And it's a revelation. Just goes to show how hidebound our thinking about established repertoire can be. Thank you!
Thank you. you'll find the entire sonata recently recorded on the fritz in the Beethoven playlist!
The best version I have heard :D
I may have commented before on this same video, but this piece sounds fantastic at this tempo.
yes, it indeed works very well on the clavichord, of course your excellent playing skills have much to do with that.
Thanks Linda, great to read!
OMG, wow, I'm speechless, thank you!
Thank you so much!
Finding back speech, I'd say it feels about as earth-shattering as early Early Music movement recordings must have felt for people who were already alive back then. (I'm 33, for me the Early Music movement was always there.)
And now you made me speechless... thank you so much, this is really one of the nicest comments someone gave to me...
My day is ok now :-)
very best wishes,
Wim
Artists must be daring. A downside of the classical music worlds striving for refinement is that rarely somebody dares to do something crazy, also partially because playing music is already such a vulnerable thing. I'm pretty sure that this is an important reason why many otherwise well educated people find classical music boring, in many cases classical music is far away from being as existential as it could be. We painfully miss the uncertainty-aspect of art in classical music, the Early Music movement sometimes provides it (next to goodies like not forcing equal temperament onto everything), and this recording is not only exciting and pleasurable to hear, I think it will get its little place in music history because it is daring AND great. Like good art. (For instance the inventions are great but not daring.)
Have a good day!
Benjamin
And in that sense it is very appropriate for Beethoven.
Los maestros escriben música en un sentido puro y da lo mismo si lo tocas en un clavicordio pianoforte o sintetizador o un stick...va a sonar bien porque en el sentido musical lo que vale es la composición....
I love it, thank you very much for this recording! So alive!
Just beautiful ! The Waldstein on clavichord is very interesting and that's bring new ideas of interpretation ! These camera angle are very interesting but we don't see your hands ^^ ( it doesn't really matter ) ...
Sorry for my english ^^
Théotime from France
Hi Thémotime, thank you for the nice words! Most of the times, you'll see my hands, in the Cramer etudes series, even from very close and different angles, but i wanted to do something special here with the repeated notes. Often it is, when postproduce, "l'embarras du choix..."
Thanks again,
Wim
It's weird that double beats works wonderful on a clavichord and not the modern piano
It works when you play differently
At this tempo you have time to appreciate all the twists and turns of Beethoven's thought process, and thematic progress. There is plenty to keep one interested, which excessive speed obscures.
Thank you Chris. The Waldstein is planned for recording on the new Fritz Pianoforte soon!
@@AuthenticSound The third movement, I expect, will shine on the piano-forte with reasonable tempi applied. I look forward to hearing it.
¡Bravo Maestro!
Thank you, Juan !
w.
Interesting that this is the "slower" version, but it goes by much more quickly than a typical performance. Must be enjoying this version a lot more :)
Because Wim omits the repeat.
Waldstein naked , like I had never seen it. Without her battle armour she is really here anyway
it is truly amazing how boring and pitiful 21 sounds on piano after i've heard this magnificent juggernaut of an instrument
Claudio Arrau takes the 1st movement at a relatively slow tempo, not as slow as yours but slower than typical performances.
Great idea! One can envisage Beethoven late at night playing the Waldestein on his own clavichord or even putting it down on paper as he was composing it... Win, which clavichord is this one? Is it any louder than the most clavichords? I noticed that it is quite larger then most I have seen? Who built it?
Hi Paolo, thanks for the nice words! My clavichord is built by Joris Potvieghe. It is an unfretted instrument after Saxon style ca 1750-1760.
How about the Hammerklavier on the clavichord ?
That is impossible, only technical the chords there does not allow you constant use of perfect 'classic' technique, eg fingers in a curve, contact with the keys on the front, etc. And one needs the sustaining pedal! Hammerklavier is on the waiting list for the new pianoforte to come hopefully this year! th-cam.com/video/RC_MjshZ_gY/w-d-xo.html
Well it is called ,,Hammerklavier" for a reason :)
Wim, another excellent performance! You might be able to play the Hammerklavier on a tangent piano, with all its silvery overtones. Something to contemplate . . .
It's very clear and nice to hear. But did beethoven play his pieces on the forte piano or the clavichord?
he had a clavichord till his death, but this work sure is thought for the fortepiano
Who is building your hammerklavier? Looking forward to videos on that! I must say that clavichords were still being built way past 1800 and as far as i know any "clavier" sonata was played on whatever clavier that had the range for it. Only until Beethoven's Sonata 29, op 106 was the issue of specific instrument.
BTW: i thought you solved the range problem very well... almost noticed nothing out of the norm! Bravo!
Thank you so much, glad you liked this! Joris Potvlieghe is building the piano, we had been talking on that for a long time. I have made some videos on the building process, in the very beginning (you find them by searching for pianoforte on the YT page of my channel), but he asked -understandably- to wait a bit until things were a bit more advanced. The project was put on hold for some months, is now again on full speed, and normally from September on, I cover it as much as I can. Joris' workshop is in kilometers (150)not so far from where I live, but Brussels makes it in weekdays almost impossible to drive to it.
best wishes,
Wim
Now that is very interesting! We visited Joris workshop years ago, where I had hoped to order a clavichord, sadly the financing didn't work out, but was a nice trip to Belgium! Very much looking forward to that piano of yours then!
amazing
Just love the camera angle!!!! Had trouble adjusting to the slow tempo. Is that a limitation of the clavichord or just a personal choice? It seems to me Beethoven wanted the piece to flow in a more open rhythm that this tempo divides up...
Thank you David! There will be two Afterthoughts on this recording, talking also on tempo and notation. I am convinced that my tempo is on the edge of being too fast regarding to notation, but indeed, it often is played much faster, as if... the master would have used 16th notes...not 8th's !
Would he? I'm not trying to argue a point, I'm struggling with the concept. I don't understand why a simpler to write note value that also looks less cluttering on the page couldn't serve well for an up tempo piece. Of course, such leisure measures are common for Romantic composers (ie. Rachmoninoff's Prelude C#m Presto section is not buried in ink) but did baroque/classic/borderline composers have an understanding that one adhered to a busily covered page if one wanted very quick playing of them? I've always tended to let the flow of the melody line and how it interacts with the stated tempo & the mood it implied as indications to find my "happy middle" for tempo but, perhaps, I have erred. You're the expert so it's an honest question, not intended to challenge you.
O, definitely! Although there is nothing one can 'proof', but the fact that there were notation agreements, not by "law", but known. Understandably, and in their interest, because what else did a composer had to make sure his music would be understood by those who he never would have the chance to "explain" what he meant? So, there is no comparison at all with composers like Rachmaninov to be made. From somewhere mid 1850, the tempo ordinario kind of notation (or starting point), was left behind slowly. So, if Bach writes a piece with "no tempo-indication", he assumes you understand notation, tempo ordinario, affect, etc. As did Beethoven (he knew CPEBach's Versuch very well, even Czerny had to read that first before taking lessons with him).
Tempo Ordinario is easily enough translated but not a musical concept my teachers ever considered worth teaching me. Would a Google search be worth the time to learn the rules of the method or do I need to get that from a teacher?
In two words: tempo ordinario is (from memory and related to what Jacques van Oortmerssen teached me), a normal 4/4 (C) bar structure, with 16th notes as fasted structural note value and overall no harmonic changes faster than per 4th note (I believe, must make a section on that, but to be very accurate and also related to """sources"""", it is more complicated than it essentially is. You easily will know pieces in that structure. The tempo of that is around the second per 4th note, or a bit faster (allegro) or a bit slower (adagio). In JSB time, more and more additions came (words), so things were messed up a bit because of more nuanced writing. So, if you connect Beethoven to that tradition (which he was), a C-bar structure has four distinct counts. In modern performances of that piece, you only hear 2, so it is played at double speed (this is very short and leaving out much). The flow you miss, is, to me, a kind of Wagnerian feel people tend to want in early music, but back then, they were (I think) more into a metrical feel of heavy and light beats, much more than to drag the 'tension' over the bow of the sentence. But again, this is not something to quote me on on national classical radio, but the basics are understandable I guess, not?
Really great performance. Loved to hear it at a slower tempo. I’ve always been on board with the tempo Arrau takes. Question: Any reasoning why you play the opening call and response melody in the right hand in a different rhythm? They sound like triplets to me? It almost made me tune out early on, but I was VERY HAPPY I stayed ! Great job
it was a remainder of the 'mainstream' style...!
que gran presentación,que gran fuerza! mis felicitaciones por tan gran trabajo,me declaro su fan señor winters
Allegro senza brio ;)
Haha! To 21st century ears, maybe..
@@AuthenticSound
I don't have 21st Century ears, and if this revelation is right, which it might well be, then my ears are from Haydn's time.
wonderful I was too sleepy and tired to practice my Beethoven sonata today. Now you made me done it
clavichord,the first piano
wonderful!
Thank you Jozef !
Brilliant....
Hi.
Very well done sir!
Just a question concerning the tempo (not the usual "too slow?" one!).
How would you play the octave passage of the third movement with a "slower" (according to today's custom) tempo?
Czerny tells us to play it glissando, which would be impossible with a slower tempo.
(I know that the fortepiano has lighter mechanics).
That is high on the list when the pf is here! Remind me if I forget
Thank you for your reply. Looking forward. Anyway, very good job!
In that tempo the piece is way more beautifull and human like no robot-like (double tempo) if i could say that...
I think that we should imagine the times back then, there was no internet, no cars, so just imagine how slow the life was.., if some person was able to go to another country, he must have been an aristocrat or a big merchant, otherwise no way, or the person would risk his life for the sake of doing that (i'm talking only about going to the country next door by your own), nowadays if you are a waiter you can save some money and fly to Australia just to pop up for a visit.. that explains a lot.. in case of tempo as well..
People were living close to the nature and the societies were close to God, close to churches that were providing civilization, and that gave births to so many beautifull musicians.. you name them. Without Catholic Church there is no Europe culture, there is no art at all, in the place of nations wich provide the law for its citizens, there would have been some wild tribes. killing one another without any mercy and humanity. The power and food would have been most important and nobody would care about art, not to even think about writing it down for further generations. Without Catholic Church which generated Mozart, Beethoven, Palestrina, there is even no sheet music. lol . As it came from neumatic (4lines, nota quadrata, and so on) manuscripts from Benedict Monks from Solesmes back in XI-XII century,..
In the time of Bach and later Mozart, Beethoven everything was for the glory of God, just read the manuscripts, where they wrote almost on every piece - ,,for the glory of God'' ,, thank God'' and so on , check Haydn, Bach, .. etc.. well, that proofs that we, as a humanity and nowaday generation are way too far away from God, so the music is crap, the art became crap, and ,,artists'' are just boastful coxcombs selling themselves everywhere they can, just to grab some penny, talking so loud about everything they've done.. We're living in the last days imho... May Lord Jesus and His Blessed Mother have mercy upon us..
..but to go back to your performance mr Wim, it sounds astonishing, it gives the time to amuse, rethink the intentions and feelings the writer had, when he was writing it. Nowadays ppl are way too hectic, so the music became hectic as well.. I have also noticed that, the way you played that wonderfull piece, regardless the point that one can understand the ,,movement'' , it gives a real oportunity for very talented musician to copy it by ear, like eg. the great Mozart and other perfect eared musicians done with the music they've heard. Plus in that tempo you can hear the Beethoven brilliant corners very well.. man that was inspiring. Keep it up.
God bless.
Thanks Piotr, great to read your thoughts here. I've some playlists with Beethoven and Mozart and Haydn in case you would listen a bit more : th-cam.com/play/PLackZ_5a6IWWBRcIS328l5aQd8PkzmO61.html or th-cam.com/play/PLackZ_5a6IWXP9ml6qsDt1bMv7QFpvbaM.html or th-cam.com/play/PLackZ_5a6IWXhAglLi2-PLwj_3lXd5bEt.html
AuthenticSound
Thanks for the links. I will check your interpretations for sure in the free time. Have a nice day .
Cheers.
Piotr Przydryga remember this is also the time of the Protestant Wars,,,(Catholic versus non Catholic Christians)
European Christians Conquering the World.
I'm Born Catholic but do not believe.
There are many good things about "Catholic" but open your eyes.
Piotr Przydryga also The Catholic Church paid for the Musicians to entertain,,, who would have gone to Church if there had been no music in the service.
would you try some Chopin? but I think that romance classical music might not fit for clavichord. Chopin, Ravel, Liszt, Rachmaninoff, they all do great keyboard performance on piano. at this point, I'm pretty worried about limitation of clavichord
It won't work, just as you write. The hand positions required for Chopin (and later Beethoven already), are not fitting within the needed closed classical hand position (most of the time) to make the clavichord sound. Plus, the sustaining pedal is a key element in music of Chopin's time!
I have one Chopin video on my channel, a recording I made ca 2000 on my Erard: th-cam.com/video/7v8_jxGnboQ/w-d-xo.html
Cimrosa, Clementi, and any other composers writing works for fortepiano and clavecin may be the only way for you. The other way is to compose something else yourself. I hope that day will be soon. Ha ha
O, there is no lack off music for these types of clavichords? Basically, from JSBach to Haydn/Mozart and all in between, more the German areas than the Southern countries, but even taking all 1st class music of that gigantic pile, would be too much for me to play in my life. And there is pianoforte to come early next year for all of Beethoven's work, and next to that composers like our Greek friend Kostas is composing very nice pieces today (for the clavichord) in Mozart's style. You might have heard some of that? And Clementi works great on clavichord, I've done several works by him here on the channel!
thanks for tuning in!
Wim
After repetition in the first movement you accelerate the music, why?
Hello, Wim. Could the Hammerclavier sonata be made to work on the clavichord, do you think?
I await your pianoforte performance with the most eager anticipation. Thanks.
Do you think you could do a Schubert Sonata? Like the little A major?
Some say Schubert had a clavichord to play and compose on, which could be possible. His music however is very hard to make work on clav. Perhaps smaller works as you mention, I'll try it one day!
Wim, I think you forgot to mention your Gretchen recording on clavichord! th-cam.com/video/y_qFowpEAPU/w-d-xo.html
While others of your expirements with "authentic" tempi totally miss the mark for me, this is actually not that far off.
For example your rendition of the Chopin Scherzo No.2 I had to put at 1.5x speed to get the music moving where it needs to be. This here totally works at 1.25x speed.
Why didn't you take the repeat?
F. the haters
Do you mean, F. the non brainwashed people?
Don't you have problem with extension?
in Waldstein yes!
Wow
A well-intentioned but ultimately unsuccessful musical experiment in my view. Odd accents, obtuse stretchings of tempi, and inappropriately anachronistic Baroque flourishes in this late-Classical-era masterpiece of Beethoven betray the spirit of a forward-looking work that should convey gleaming brightness. Instead, this clavichord interpretation transforms the Waldstein into a sinister, diabolical mass that is almost a complete antithesis of its intended artistic narrative.
Take, for example, the famous opening pulsation of C major chords. They should be bouncy and mysterious but NEVER grotesque. Instead, we hear a tempo-reduced string of accented hammerings that render what should be an expression of anticipatory excitement into something that would not be out of place in a death march.
What about the cadenza-like section in the coda? Here, we are given flamboyant turns, trills, and mordants that would be more at home in a piece from 1740 than one from 1804. Is the musician here seriously intending to impose the spirit of Bach’s Toccata unto one of the most innovative and important works of Beethoven’s middle period? If anything, this work should evoke the spirit of simplistic Mozart, not ornamented Handel.
The danger of over-engaging in the current obsession within the classical music world surrounding “period instruments” and “historically informed performance”, is the tendency to read history backwards as a mismatched picture. We generalize, employ clichés, and in the process devalue the true spirit of a composer’s life and work. The result is old music that sounds even older than it actually is.
Thanks for listening and sharing your thoughts, John, they are well appreciated! And understandable as well, since this performance is light years from what we today is in our collective memory. Allow me a few words, not to my defense, the recording should stand on its own, but to clarify. The accentuated way of playing actually is very clearly documented, also by Beethoven. It still is even strange for me to realize, reading his comments at the Cramer etudes, what the implication of what he demands here (as a general way of playing) would have in his own music. That's going even further than what I did. The tempo, for that there is no doubt I believe the double beat is to be applied. There are other videos I've made on that. Just think about the fact Beethoven uses 8th notes, only what that implies as a notation for the overall tempo. Also, I'm far from the dogmatic finger pointed period instrument player. I feel so bad about the fact that that HIP movement, just by acting so over the top self opiniated often, kind of has lead to a natural reaction like yours on what simply is a performance that has the sole purpose of sharing beauty, an idea... not in the least wanting to point the 'wrongness' of other performances. I'd hate the fact if I came through like that... I'm a big fan of Glenn Gould, to say something, just to give you a perspective. But find it fascinating to experiment and research as well. And last but not least: I do look from the baroque to 1804 here. You mix both looking back and looking forward. This recording, as much as it can lead to disagreement, if it does one thing, is putting Beethoven back in his tradition from where he came from, from having lessons in Bonn with neefe, at his clavichord, Neefe, being a 2d generation Bach student. The pulsations of the opening chord are hard to be given at my clavichord, if my new pianoforte would have been ready (it comes in a few months), I would have used that instrument. But the steady pulse in eight notes give a mysterious land scape out of which suddenly a bird rises to sing. It is not, I believe, as in today's tempo, a hurdle of horses running the prairie.
Love to read you more in the future!
Wim
I have to say that i agree with you. I personally did not enjoy the overly slow opening that seemed - in your words - grotesque. however, i nonetheless appreciate hearing it on a different instrument.
Thoughtful explanation! Still grotesque.
oh lord the danger, the danger
Hammerklavier sounds better than clavierchord
:-), it sure is a pianoforte piece, will come soon on the pf
This is really tough to play on the clavichord.The very end of the third movement is almost impossible.I think I should go back to the French Suites on my clavichord.
Yes, even way more than the Pathetique. I'm pushing the boundaries here. Also demonstrating the -as I believe it is- closer to the 18th c. tempo
😅😅
♥
how about x2 :) "How do you change the speed of a TH-cam video?
To do this, simply click on the gears icon in the video you are watching, and choose speed. This will allow you to speed up or slow down the video you are watching. If you do not see this option, you may not have HTML 5 enabled. Go to th-cam.com/users/html5 to make sure you have this enabled."
is a great idea in fact!
I just can not see myself as a fan of Beethoven's piano sonatas on the Clavichord or any other pre-piano instrument. Whereas JS Bach's music has an uncanny ability to sound great in any version and on any instrument, Beethoven's piano music, the big pieces, simply do not. For me they don't transfer to a smaller and older type of keyboard. For me, they sound anachronistic. They are interesting to hear only because you've managed to play it on a much smaller keyboard. The clunky keyboard action does sound almost comical when certain passages are played. Oh well. I like the clavichord but I don't enjoy this type of music on it. Can you imagine Debussy or Chopin on it? I can't.
I understand, but of course, Debussy wrote for a different instrument. Even Beethoven's Walter was much closer to my clavichord than to a Steinway. It is perception and habit as well of course. But the gap with today's sound is big, I have no problem with that!
I am in the weird part of you tube again...
That's were the fun starts :-) !
That’s why it’s soo interesting, me thinks.
Not authentic. Beethoven did not write for this instrument. He was already familiar with modern (to him, of course) pianos with an extended range and breadth of expression. It is not enough to be controversial if the mode of expression is inappropriate.
During the early 19th century, a lot of different clavier instruments were still in use. The modern fortepianos and later hammerklaviers were absolutely used by Beethoven, though he probably played the clavichord as a child. He also kept a clavichord to the year 1822 (at least!), Wim did a video on it. While I agree that this sonata is better suited for fortepianos and modern grands, this is a simple experiment by Wim. Beethoven may not have played it on the clavichord, but others might have!
oh no someone did something inappropriate, how will we recover
Beethoven composed on piano, playing these works on clavichord is wrong and even if Beethoven did play or compose something on clavichord was just occasionally, he composed at the piano and for piano. You should play only composers up to Mozart on clavichord, better still only Baroque music which has already lots of beautiful music to be performed on clavichord or harpsichord.
Hi Crescenzo, I wouldn't say anything is right or wrong, but of course, in this period, the fortepiano was very prominent and the clavichord is pushed here to its limits. The instrument was still around in Beethoven's life however, till the end of his life. Mendelssohn had a Silbermann clav, Brahms had the Haydn Hofman, and even as late as Bruckner, he gave lessons at the clavichord. But you're right, this is basically a piano piece. it was recorded as a follow-up of the video on tempo : th-cam.com/video/2yd7LWi4wus/w-d-xo.html
Ist gut
I really, really hate this.
comedy, helas
some comments...yes, helas
This is a joke, right? Please tell me this is a joke? You’re not serious, are you? I mean, it’s like playing Beethoven’s Ninth Symphony on a kazoo. It sounds awful! I mean really, really awful! Beethoven wrote the Waldstein and the Appasionata sonatas after he got a brand new piano - a larger piano with an extended range and dynamic power. These sonatas celebrate the power and range of the new piano. They were not written for a clavichord which is a toy compared to Beethoven’s new piano. So if it’s authenticity you’re after, you’re way off. This isn’t authentic at all and it’s pitiful. So you’ve had your little joke. Ha, ha! Trick or treat and all that. But please - really - stop it. Just stop it.
Jeez man, cool down... I played the Waldstein on my clavichord because my pianoforte was not ready... but please check your sources as well, Beethoven always had a clavichord near to him, even in 1825 it's documented to be tuned. And many of the earlier works go really nicely on the clavichord. Even Chopin was trained with clavichords close! So if that sets you off, it separates you from Beethoven's world, so yes, authentic if you like it or not, but that's the things, we rather live with our created fantasy picture of historic figures than really want to find out what they were like.
Good lord, this is the most godawful, horrible, disgusting thing I've ever heard. Jesus, my ears! My ears!
Bach Haydn Mozart Beethoven Mendelssohn Brahms Bruckner and some 5k others loved it. Good enough for me!