Since I followed this channel and watched a lot of the videos on the whole beat, I did (and do always) my own researches on a lot of books from France (particularly old methods) and found somethings interesting. A lot of French teachers and pianists doesn't use "battement" to describe beat of the metronome (for you the "tick") but use the word "oscillation", and a oscillation means a complete period, like the pendalum : two ticks Wim, it's a very pleasant adventure you offer us, a whole new world at the piano, thanks a lot, waiting for the book!!!
Adrian Bending, a percussionist, made a recent video titled "A Whole Lot of Fuss About Nothing?" where he explores Beethoven's 5th ending. He makes, and demonstrates, the point that what is written on the modern score is physically impossible to play, a speed beyond the world record for drumming. His exploration of the score is very informative. (34:30, of course I'm watching.)
hey I watched that video, this was not the point of that video, the point was to discuss the history of that final timpani bar and to promote Jonathan Del Mar's admirable work, and plus even in whole beat 32nd notes (which don't appear in any other part of that "presto" section in the timpani or otherwise) at a rate of nearly 30 notes/second is too much to ask for from a timpanist
@@dukeofcurls3183 Right, Bending shows the last measure as most likely being a transcription error. The lead-up to that was really great. 30 notes/second would be around low A on a modern piano. I doubt Beethoven ever gave the instruction, "Use mallets attached to a cranked wheel for this bar." 🤣
@@ChainsawCoffee It means you didn’t understand the whole point and conclusion of that video. It wasn’t about the last tremolo being impossible, but making no logical sense as a probable result of misinterpretation (of the original score) that was reprinted in subsequent editions.
Yesterday added a remark about modern musicians trying to play at double the speed that classical composers intended. No argument is required - once WM is explained! I accepted a paid gig to play 2 hours of classical music in the mall of my city- I intend to use WM to play! The council wanted to highlight a chamber music festival. It will be an interesting experiment ...
A few remarks regarding this video. Unlike what some would have us believed, disagreeing and criticizing musicological publications doesn't make us conspiracy theorists, flat earther or whatever. But putting in question those works is just sound. In this case I think Wim made his case clear regarding E. Reibel but I just wanted to add some things. The latter admits some tempi are 'utopian' i. e. Impossible. He admits what countless of commenters of this TH-cam channel are denying. And since Beethoven's metronome marks are far from being the only or even the most problematic, Reibel just put a huge dent into the single beat narrative. Reibel goes even further by admitting the WBMP did apply to pendulum counting hsitorically, one more thing constantly denied. Even though Reibel distorted Wim's points in his peer-reviewed publication, he might be an unknowing ally of the WBMP 😂 First by the way 🙃
“Traditional Speed” is an ingrained bad habit, that received blessings by academia and the conservatories, and later sanctification which received then led to canonization Sainthood, as an official article of faith when musicologists proclaim Ex Cathedra (official dogma as being without error) that Single Beat Metronome Marks ueber alles is applied to all Marks from the very beginning, for every mark. So Wim Winters is a tempo “ heretic”, but until all MM marks miraculously become playable by all virtuosos and as well by all pianists, organists, instrumentalists, et al., he is a voice crying in the wilderness. As such commentary originates from the internet where everyone thinks they are an authority, with full knowledge of what they speak. So put your money where your mouth is all you detractors, and play Czerny’s MM Marks for the C major Invention, the A major invention with all the ornaments, the E major Invention, and the impossible marks in Czerny’s Etudes, Chopin’s works (no omission of all those small notes, no Ritardando not found in the score, and yes in Beethoven’s impossible marks.
Great video as always. If I can ask a question of Wim with regard to having only Italian tempo marks: I was just listening once again to your 2005 excellent recording of Liszt's "Jeux d' eau a la villa d' Este" and that lovely piece is on my "bucket list" to learn to play. Since it has no MM marks on it, would you in retrospect still play it at the speed you did then or would it properly be a bit slower in your opinion now? Does it still match what you think "Allegretto" implies?
You're just so obviously correct it is painful to see what the blind keep shoving onto the uneducated, or lets' say unlearned, public and other musicians.
Hanon virtuoso exercises make a lot of sense in wb. We are simultaneously playing exercise 1 too fast and too slow. We are just playing at the speed that we are comfortable playing and we are missing out on the practise that we are meant to learn from the exercise.
Beethoven, desperate to tame his wild mane, went for a haircut. He asked for something short and neat, like Haydn (gasp!). But the barber, like so many musicians who couldn't follow his scores, had his own artistic vision. Beethoven yelled, he pleaded, but the barber just sculpted away, lost in his own world. The result? A poofy, elaborate mess with fancy sideburns. Beethoven stormed out, defeated. He learned the hard way: some people just won't listen, even if you're Beethoven! The world just doesn't understand genius, whether in music... or haircuts.
I enjoy your presentations enormously. For me the Hammerklavier Sonata for me has always seemed too fast as played by 20th century pianists, the whole beat speed sounds grand, majestic - it’s transformative. For decades I have found a lot of piano music too fast for my hearing, nuance and resonance lost. I am sure you are right. There is another problem. Our lives run at a much faster pace than in the past. I have lived long enough to feel it myself over the past 80+ years. In music, especially piano music, velocity has now become a focus of a lot of performance - can people unlearn this way of hearing? I find such gorgeous sounds when doing slow practise that disappear when played at the standard speed. It may be that we have to compromise initially and still play a bit faster than whole beat. It is interesting that you mention how we can become trapped in the dogma of our discipline. I started professional life as a theoretical physicist where that whole beat of the oscillation was the only way to see it. At the same time I was playing piano but never thought that there was something wrong with the half beat use of the metronome. I hope to be around to buy & read your book.
I would like to say that I didn't expect, at the end of the video, the quote that he left out, but at this point thy know they are helpless, it is only question of time. I am spreading this "theory" (yes, in quotation marks because the real theory is single beat, since it is just unplayeable) with my collegues at conservatory and presented with facts everyone agrees but brushes it under the carpet. Thank you so much
If the "best pianists" that play as fast as possible, can only achieve about 70% of the metronome mark, by playing at halving the metronome mark we play about 30% slower than those "best pianists", Not 50% slower than the traditional readings.
Tempos are way too fast. Everything ! Chopin fantasie- impromptu, etudes , Beethoven 1st and last movts Op26 sonata scherzo movt and final movt.played like cartoon music. I studied at Juilliard but you are correct . Nobody cares about the composers intentions.nithing but egos now. The last 100 years at that . Metronome ? Nobody cares and they are taught to ignore it and use it only as a practice device to keep one’s playing steady. I hate what has happened the musical arts. I must speak with you somehow !!!!
Pianists are out of control. They should stand back close their eyes and transport themselves to the composers time and listen. They don’t listen. Everything is too fast.
Academia has a strong tendency toward conservatism. One may not challenge the experts. One of the purposes of peer review is to prevent publication by scholars who do this.
Hum, they could begin by actually present the 'theory' which they 'fight' in a truthful way. Otherwise their contribution has next to zero value. BTW, Reibel admits some of Beethoven's tempi are impossible, and by consequence, many of the 19th metronome marks. What do you make of that with your single beat narrative? Do you think all composer's and editors' metronomes were broken in the same way?
Well, they haven't. Any study should start with an objective representation of the problem it wants to talk about. And that academic principle apparently never applies to tempo research.
Harmful Myth? Please cite the damage done from your inference of “harm.” How many students were injured by repetitive strain injuries from wholebeat theory vs. the dogma of Single Beat Metronome performance is possible for all pieces (which to date he never been proven) even by concert pianists? Pubmed the U.S. National Library of Medicine of Medicine at the National Institutes of Health doesn’t list any injury associated with Harmed by an idea that academia has promoted for the better part of 90 years? Psychological injury from an idea? An idea that’s not of Wim Winters origination. Williard Palmer raised the problem with interpretation of easy works of Schumann when he published his edition in Alfred Edition in the year Wim Winters was born. Here’s a biography of Wim Winters: “Wim Winters was born in 1972 in Lommel, Belgium. He began his musical studies in 1984; one year later he took part in the prestigious “International Competition for Amateurs” of the City of Boxtel, the Netherlands. At age 13, Mr. Winters was awarded First Prize in the competition and subsequently decided to pursue a career in music. In 1990 Mr. Winters was accepted to the Sweelinck Conservatory in Amsterdam, where he studied with Jacques van Oortmerssen (organ) and Willem Brons (piano). In 1998 he completed his studies with the highest honors, earning two First Prizes in pedagogy and performance. During his conservatory years Mr. Winters also studied with Jean Boyer, Hans van Nieuwkoop, Hans Davidsson and Harald Vogel. In 1994 he won both the Baroque and Romantic prizes at the “Studenten Orgelconcours” in Leiben, the Netherlands. Between 1997 and 1999 he took Third Prize in the following three international competitions: “Music Antiqua Bruges”, Maastricht’s “Europe and the Organ” and “Schnitger”, in Alkmaar. Mr. Winters has performed in numerous organ festivals in France, Germany, Holland, Spain and Belgium. In addition, Mr. Winters is actively involved in restoration projects of historic organs throughout Flanders. Eager to explore other keyboards, Mr. Winters devotes a substantial part of his interpretive work to the clavichord. Since 2008 he regularly performs works by the Bach family, Mozart, Haydn and Beethoven on a five-octave unfretted clavichord built by the renowned Belgian, Joris Potvlieghe.” So what’s your background that you make such outlandish and unsubstantiated/unsupported claims.
Since I followed this channel and watched a lot of the videos on the whole beat, I did (and do always) my own researches on a lot of books from France (particularly old methods) and found somethings interesting.
A lot of French teachers and pianists doesn't use "battement" to describe beat of the metronome (for you the "tick") but use the word "oscillation", and a oscillation means a complete period, like the pendalum : two ticks
Wim, it's a very pleasant adventure you offer us, a whole new world at the piano, thanks a lot, waiting for the book!!!
33:21 The Berlioz/Mendelssohn anecdote is gold!
34:45 Still here. I appreciate how you remain calm even when reading upsetting statements!
You are reaching many people. I am with you all the way. We must speak
Academia doesn’t attempt to be objective when “They can’t see the Metronome Marks for the Impossibility”.
Adrian Bending, a percussionist, made a recent video titled "A Whole Lot of Fuss About Nothing?" where he explores Beethoven's 5th ending. He makes, and demonstrates, the point that what is written on the modern score is physically impossible to play, a speed beyond the world record for drumming. His exploration of the score is very informative. (34:30, of course I'm watching.)
hey I watched that video, this was not the point of that video, the point was to discuss the history of that final timpani bar and to promote Jonathan Del Mar's admirable work, and plus even in whole beat 32nd notes (which don't appear in any other part of that "presto" section in the timpani or otherwise) at a rate of nearly 30 notes/second is too much to ask for from a timpanist
@@dukeofcurls3183 Right, Bending shows the last measure as most likely being a transcription error. The lead-up to that was really great. 30 notes/second would be around low A on a modern piano. I doubt Beethoven ever gave the instruction, "Use mallets attached to a cranked wheel for this bar." 🤣
@@ChainsawCoffee It means you didn’t understand the whole point and conclusion of that video. It wasn’t about the last tremolo being impossible, but making no logical sense as a probable result of misinterpretation (of the original score) that was reprinted in subsequent editions.
Talsma made important contributions, but Lorenz Gadient was the one who cracked the code.
Yesterday added a remark about modern musicians trying to play at double the speed that classical composers intended. No argument is required - once WM is explained! I accepted a paid gig to play 2 hours of classical music in the mall of my city- I intend to use WM to play! The council wanted to highlight a chamber music festival. It will be an interesting experiment ...
A few remarks regarding this video.
Unlike what some would have us believed, disagreeing and criticizing musicological publications doesn't make us conspiracy theorists, flat earther or whatever. But putting in question those works is just sound.
In this case I think Wim made his case clear regarding E. Reibel but I just wanted to add some things. The latter admits some tempi are 'utopian' i. e. Impossible. He admits what countless of commenters of this TH-cam channel are denying. And since Beethoven's metronome marks are far from being the only or even the most problematic, Reibel just put a huge dent into the single beat narrative.
Reibel goes even further by admitting the WBMP did apply to pendulum counting hsitorically, one more thing constantly denied.
Even though Reibel distorted Wim's points in his peer-reviewed publication, he might be an unknowing ally of the WBMP 😂
First by the way 🙃
“Utopian”?!
@@AlbertoSegovia. In this context, this is E. Reibel's way to avoid saying those MM are simply impossible.
But it’s easy! The instruments were lighter before! What is he talking about? (I’m joking)
“Traditional Speed” is an ingrained bad habit, that received blessings by academia and the conservatories, and later sanctification which received then led to canonization Sainthood, as an official article of faith when musicologists proclaim Ex Cathedra (official dogma as being without error) that Single Beat Metronome Marks ueber alles is applied to all Marks from the very beginning, for every mark.
So Wim Winters is a tempo “ heretic”, but until all MM marks miraculously become playable by all virtuosos and as well by all pianists, organists, instrumentalists, et al., he is a voice crying in the wilderness. As such commentary originates from the internet where everyone thinks they are an authority, with full knowledge of what they speak. So put your money where your mouth is all you detractors, and play Czerny’s MM Marks for the C major Invention, the A major invention with all the ornaments, the E major Invention, and the impossible marks in Czerny’s Etudes, Chopin’s works (no omission of all those small notes, no Ritardando not found in the score, and yes in Beethoven’s impossible marks.
Great video as always. If I can ask a question of Wim with regard to having only Italian tempo marks: I was just listening once again to your 2005 excellent recording of Liszt's "Jeux d' eau a la villa d' Este" and that lovely piece is on my "bucket list" to learn to play. Since it has no MM marks on it, would you in retrospect still play it at the speed you did then or would it properly be a bit slower in your opinion now? Does it still match what you think "Allegretto" implies?
It will take a complete movement to upend these Arrogant teachers and performers . Can be done. Everyone must slow down. Must contact you. NORTHERN NJ
You're just so obviously correct it is painful to see what the blind keep shoving onto the uneducated, or lets' say unlearned, public and other musicians.
Hanon virtuoso exercises make a lot of sense in wb. We are simultaneously playing exercise 1 too fast and too slow. We are just playing at the speed that we are comfortable playing and we are missing out on the practise that we are meant to learn from the exercise.
Beethoven, desperate to tame his wild mane, went for a haircut. He asked for something short and neat, like Haydn (gasp!). But the barber, like so many musicians who couldn't follow his scores, had his own artistic vision. Beethoven yelled, he pleaded, but the barber just sculpted away, lost in his own world. The result? A poofy, elaborate mess with fancy sideburns. Beethoven stormed out, defeated. He learned the hard way: some people just won't listen, even if you're Beethoven! The world just doesn't understand genius, whether in music... or haircuts.
I enjoy your presentations enormously. For me the Hammerklavier Sonata for me has always seemed too fast as played by 20th century pianists, the whole beat speed sounds grand, majestic - it’s transformative. For decades I have found a lot of piano music too fast for my hearing, nuance and resonance lost. I am sure you are right. There is another problem. Our lives run at a much faster pace than in the past. I have lived long enough to feel it myself over the past 80+ years. In music, especially piano music, velocity has now become a focus of a lot of performance - can people unlearn this way of hearing? I find such gorgeous sounds when doing slow practise that disappear when played at the standard speed. It may be that we have to compromise initially and still play a bit faster than whole beat. It is interesting that you mention how we can become trapped in the dogma of our discipline. I started professional life as a theoretical physicist where that whole beat of the oscillation was the only way to see it. At the same time I was playing piano but never thought that there was something wrong with the half beat use of the metronome. I hope to be around to buy & read your book.
I am an academic myself and I've been there too, mate.
I would like to say that I didn't expect, at the end of the video, the quote that he left out, but at this point thy know they are helpless, it is only question of time. I am spreading this "theory" (yes, in quotation marks because the real theory is single beat, since it is just unplayeable) with my collegues at conservatory and presented with facts everyone agrees but brushes it under the carpet. Thank you so much
If the "best pianists" that play as fast as possible, can only achieve about 70% of the metronome mark, by playing at halving the metronome mark we play about 30% slower than those "best pianists", Not 50% slower than the traditional readings.
34:45 I am still here.
Jeremy is first! Where is our classic first? I get to be second 🙃
Third this time...
Tempos are way too fast. Everything ! Chopin fantasie- impromptu, etudes , Beethoven 1st and last movts Op26 sonata scherzo movt and final movt.played like cartoon music. I studied at Juilliard but you are correct . Nobody cares about the composers intentions.nithing but egos now. The last 100 years at that . Metronome ? Nobody cares and they are taught to ignore it and use it only as a practice device to keep one’s playing steady. I hate what has happened the musical arts. I must speak with you somehow !!!!
Pianists are out of control. They should stand back close their eyes and transport themselves to the composers time and listen. They don’t listen. Everything is too fast.
Cool video
Academia has a strong tendency toward conservatism. One may not challenge the experts. One of the purposes of peer review is to prevent publication by scholars who do this.
35:18 I'm Still here Wim 👍
I’m glad that representatives of the academic and musicological community are finally taking action to combat the harmful myth of double beat theory.
Still waiting for a real contribution at that,
Hum, they could begin by actually present the 'theory' which they 'fight' in a truthful way. Otherwise their contribution has next to zero value.
BTW, Reibel admits some of Beethoven's tempi are impossible, and by consequence, many of the 19th metronome marks. What do you make of that with your single beat narrative? Do you think all composer's and editors' metronomes were broken in the same way?
And that includes you if you are so part,
Well, they haven't. Any study should start with an objective representation of the problem it wants to talk about. And that academic principle apparently never applies to tempo research.
Harmful Myth? Please cite the damage done from your inference of “harm.” How many students were injured by repetitive strain injuries from wholebeat theory vs. the dogma of Single Beat Metronome performance is possible for all pieces (which to date he never been proven) even by concert pianists? Pubmed the U.S. National Library of Medicine of Medicine at the National Institutes of Health doesn’t list any injury associated with
Harmed by an idea that academia has promoted for the better part of 90 years?
Psychological injury from an idea? An idea that’s not of Wim Winters origination. Williard Palmer raised the problem with interpretation of easy works of Schumann when he published his edition in Alfred Edition in the year Wim Winters was born.
Here’s a biography of Wim Winters: “Wim Winters was born in 1972 in Lommel, Belgium. He began his musical studies in 1984; one year later he took part in the prestigious “International Competition for Amateurs” of the City of Boxtel, the Netherlands. At age 13, Mr. Winters was awarded First Prize in the competition and subsequently decided to pursue a career in music.
In 1990 Mr. Winters was accepted to the Sweelinck Conservatory in Amsterdam, where he studied with Jacques van Oortmerssen (organ) and Willem Brons (piano). In 1998 he completed his studies with the highest honors, earning two First Prizes in pedagogy and performance. During his conservatory years Mr. Winters also studied with Jean Boyer, Hans van Nieuwkoop, Hans Davidsson and Harald Vogel.
In 1994 he won both the Baroque and Romantic prizes at the “Studenten Orgelconcours” in Leiben, the Netherlands. Between 1997 and 1999 he took Third Prize in the following three international competitions: “Music Antiqua Bruges”, Maastricht’s “Europe and the Organ” and “Schnitger”, in Alkmaar.
Mr. Winters has performed in numerous organ festivals in France, Germany, Holland, Spain and Belgium. In addition, Mr. Winters is actively involved in restoration projects of historic organs throughout Flanders.
Eager to explore other keyboards, Mr. Winters devotes a substantial part of his interpretive work to the clavichord. Since 2008 he regularly performs works by the Bach family, Mozart, Haydn and Beethoven on a five-octave unfretted clavichord built by the renowned Belgian, Joris Potvlieghe.”
So what’s your background that you make such outlandish and unsubstantiated/unsupported claims.
34:35 I'm still here.