Peter obornes politics may be Conservative but his honesty as a reporter can not be devalued. He commands respect and I read and listen to him and trust him implicitly even if our politics are opposing
Respect to Peter Oborne for telling the truth on these matters. I have just read his book and it's really shocking at the way our democracy is being subverted.
Recently Peter has spoken of the decline of unbiased reporting in the Telegraph, and indeed all so call serious newspapers; of late, the BBC has shown a similar decline. There is no serious comment on Parliament, Brexit or the EU. There is a general dumbing down of content to the degree that informed viewers and listeners appear to be actively discouraged. The pillars of a democratic society are: - a judiciary independent of the executive, the right to vote for a parliament, the freedom to practice a religion of choice, and a “clear separation of duties and power” between each of the pillars. Finally, there needs to be just rewards for an individual’s efforts and similarly aligned access to resources. The lack of challenge suggests that we have evolved from a democracy to a plutocracy and are on a journey towards an oligarchy.
people have not accepted lying. it is endured while always expecting and hoping for better. for enquiring people, has it not occurred to you that the obvious nexus of power with shameless manipulative deceit, entitlement, absence of empathy, hubris and unaccountability are established 'red flags' of pathological personality disorders. that is the blind spot - that these people are drawn to positions of power, authority and status like moths to a flame and that they always have been. regrettably, for better or worse, these behaviours can now be seen more broadly and comprehensibly by the public through the media. give it the clinical name it deserves.
This is a really excellent debate and discussion. I have been plugging away at my very Tory MP and writing to the speaker about the very same issues that Peter Osborne is raising. I have had responses from both, and both responses have seemed to me to be highly unsatisfactory. However it is hugely heartening to hear from Peter that I have been doing or at least trying to do “the right thing”. The present situation seems to me to be both unprecedented and highly dangerous, and once again it is heartening to hear confirmation of that from people much better qualified than myself. And and actually I have reached a conclusion that only a revolution, or something very like it, Will have sufficient heft to remove these aggressive and Unprincipled leaders, who are even at this moment twisting the system yet further in order to ensure the long-term grip on power. I believe we need a written constitution and thorough electoral reform. Best wishes happy Christmas
I've only watched the first few minutes, but I'm a little worried that his opening gambit was that "there were a few lies, nothing major, from New Labour as far back as the Iraq war and then basically nothing until Johnson in 2019"... What?! Did he sleep through Brexit and the Corbyn era?
I am sure that Peter will agree with me in that it is a question of upbringing. As for this concept of Private and Public Life - in my book we only have ONE life during which we behave well or badly. Fobbing bad behaviour off with the saying " oh but that was his private life" My husband was an Army Officer, a graduate from Sandhurst Academy, was honest and truthful in every respect. I was an RAF Nurse and an NHS Nurse . Neither of us would want to go to war under the command and control of a pathological liar, a coward, a serial adulterer....who would?
Peter On the 24th December 2020, Prime Minister Boris Johnson gave a statement on the outcome of negotiations with the European Union. He stated: "Because there will be no palisade of tariffs on Jan 1. And there will be no non-tariff barriers to trade. And instead there will be a giant free trade zone of which we will at once be a member." I emailed the speaker about this and this is his reply... Dear Neil,
Mr Speaker has asked me to thank you for your email and to reply on his behalf.
Mr Speaker has asked me to explain that, although this is a subject about which you feel deeply concerned, it is not for the Chair to comment on the accuracy or otherwise of Members’ contributions, or on any subsequent comments or exchanges about them.
Mr Speaker you raise your concerns with the Prime Minister directly, via your local Member of Parliament.
Kind regards,
Josh Ryder Assistant to the Speaker’s Secretary Speaker’s Office, House of Commons, London SW1A 0AA
That's a churlish & surprisingly inaccurate response. The House of Commons has no Chair, the Speakers role is to speak (hence the name) to the Crown conveying Parliament's collective views & (if still alive) return with any responses. As such he has a duty, not least to his own health, to ensure that there are no lies.
Really appreciate & respect Peter for writing this book, (and the last). It's a moral and ethical battle out there. The truth must survive or we are all truly lost. Particularly touched by his words on the Nolan Principles, which of course only become flawed and useless when the executive is. I would love to ask everyone,; Where do we start deradicalising a Britain who's Govt have spent billions on Companies that specialise is psychological abuse / assault on truth - to sell manufactured fear & govt failure? ... especially when there is now a whole industry dedicated to psychologically manipulating how public/ electorate perceive truth. ? Where the hell do we begin when almost all print and broadcast journalism has fallen in line with Govt?
At this present moment in time,my gut feeling is that the government has lost control as has the Bank of England. Last week apparently the IMF issued a statement to all European governments,NOT to give financial support to any of their citizens except for the poorest! Now it is predicted that by April 2023 gas and electric will be up to £5000!! Also l believe the economy will literally drop,off a cliff this October/November and then we’re on our own. Already there are warnings of blackouts this winter and even water shortages! Every party con Lab Lib etc are rotten to the core and dance to the tune of the piper WEF. One other impending disaster is Local councils borrowing to buy commercial property…..what could possibly go wrong? Apologies for my spouting rubbish,but l feel the rats have left the sinking ship with the family silver. All the best
We begin with subscriptions to openDemocracy (& donations), Bellingcat, Wikileaks & other serious independent media so we can bypass at least some of the lies.
As a 71yo, the word 'decency' was commonly used throughout the British population. Everyone basically knew what it meant no matter the context in which it was used, it seemed to have a somewhat universal/common acknowledgement. A man would be called a 'decent man', a book could be called a 'decent read', if we said he has no sense of decency, everyone knew basically what that meant. This 'universal/common' understanding included other terms in the 1950s through to the 70s that could be written on a page to describe the cultural/population's common values. That cannot be done in today's Britain. In fact, in my personal situation, I went to live in sunnier climes in 1976 but always thought I would retire back to Britain but watching what I think is Britain's cultural/social/political decline over the last 10 or so years made me change my mind. I simply would not want to live in the Britain of today!
@@alanhat5252 That certainly was a significant election that changed much, I agree. However. over the last couple of decades, I have become interested in the notion of, 'The 6 stages of Empires', as written about in various books. The common patterns of, emergence, the development stages and eventual decline patterns of all past Empires, is what has happened with GB, it are currently being in the final stage? Some books say there are 5 stages, others say 6, 7 or 8, but the basics are the same. What makes that interesting, for me at least, is that the commonality of stages over thousands of years and numerous Empires, suggests it is therefore the intrinsic nature of our species where the common problems that create these patterns are born?
Thank you for an excellent discussion with eloquent participants. But - notwithstanding some discussion in the early part on the horrific silence of the mainstream press (and a bit from Peter in concluding remarks) - the elephant that is still stomping around the room is the dreadful state of the corporate-owned press/media. Their complicit silence on the lies n the public arena by the government surely is a huge contributor to the public's lack of anger on this. The press leads the news agenda and controls the temperature of the daily debate. How do we get them to raise that temperature and get people angry about the real cancers in public life, rather than angry at foreigners and 'scroungers'? Can this happen while the press is overwhelmingly controlled by vested corporate, deregulating interests?
Fascinating and instructive. One of the problemsd we have in the UK, however, is the poverty of political thinking. Here, for example, we find Peter referring back to Burke as some kind of ideal Tory model. Burke was, in fact, a die-hard traditional right-winger who very clearly supported inequality, the political and economic dominance of the landowning aristocracy, made clear his view that Britons had, by tradition, abandoned any possibility of political change and full participatory democracy. He was a beneficiary of the system of rotten boroughs - and considered universal suffrage an outrage that would force candidates for election to lower themselves by auctioning their integrity in exchange for the votes of the vulgar herd. Burke was also - as it happens - an antisemite - as anyone knows who has read his "Reflections on the Revolution in France".
I agree, many people mistake Burke's reference to tyranny as meaning a tyrant dictator but in fact he's actually refering to the tyanny of the mob or masses.
Burke was very much of his time, what he was capable of thinking was defined by his era. He was right about the tyranny of the mob though, mobs tend to be highly undemocratic & follow the loudest voice without any consideration of the message or connotations. We see this with the 2016 referendum in which the consensus view since the early 1950s of 2:1 in favour was swung by loud voices to 1:1 with many still swayed 7 years later. In his era similar loud voices (justified or unjustified) overthrew the entire French State just 22 miles across the Channel & we had so many refugees that, while he was a sitting MP, a very panicked Act of Parliament was passed to block them (1792 Aliens Act which, thankfully, was ignored by port authorities).
How do you see Burke's views now that we can see how Zionism (a term uncoined in his era) has played out? Are you aware of the situation in Palestine? The destabilization of the region? Israel's role in English & American politics or its Press coverage?
How fitting that this discussion on lies opens with an advert for Nigel Farage's latest get rich quick scam *vomit emoji* Brilliant, insightful discussion. Not sure where the opposition is these days...
"We [the UK] are a democracy". Really? How much difference is there between the parties on offer? To what extent is the elected party obliged to stick to the promises it made to get elected? To what extent are the decisions of judges, in political trials, based on an impartial knowledge of the law? To what extent do the government and its institutions operate within the law? How much chance would a Corbyn led Labour party have had of ceasing unconditional support for Israel or of getting the UK to quit NATO had he been elected?
Taking back control was the promise of being back control to parliamentary democracy. UK democracy is actually very fragile as we don’t have a constitution which very importantly outlines the limits of power of the executive!
Sorry for replying from a fair bit into the future! I agree with you completely- this insistence on throwing around the word ‘Boris’ lends him this sort of chummy, blokey, mate-from-down-the-pub image- one completely at odds with his actual insidious character. Oh, good old ‘Boris’- we can really trust him! For some time now I’ve been trying to actively refer to him as Mr Johnson- I refuse to perpetuate this ridiculous but subtle brainwashing.
My fave is Dim Jon Sun, but I was calling him BoJo because I thought everyone would complete that title as The Clown; but apparently that is a name of endearment too. His full name is Alex Falafel Poundshop Churchill Johnson.
I fully agree with you on the "Boris" issue. It makes me furious. How can professionals keep falling into that "good old Boris, your personal clown" trap. Don't get it. It was mainly Mary Fitzgerald. Oborne did it once, I think, but checked himself immediately.
@@gertrudlehmann4869 As if his background definitely isn’t one of staggering privilege and affluence. No, Boris is not ‘the man of the people’, he does not ‘understand the people’s priorities’, and he almost certainly is *not* ‘one of us’.
It's all due to the concept of it all as a game, 'Big Players' etc. And that is just a tactic in the game of convincing people that, in a democracy, voting is pointless. Thus Conservative supporters, by and large, vote (1995 was an exception) and if Labour voters don't vote then The Toris stay in Government.
21:16 @openDemocracy please do! Please talk about technology & especially about psychographic profiling & manipulation as practiced by CambridgeAnalytica & others.
Peter we all make mistakes in life that’s part of life. It’s been able to see we made a mistake and admit it to ourselves and the wider world that we made a mistake. The problem with Brexit it was built on a pack of lies now the Brexiter in chief is try to justify to his nation and the outside world unjustifiable! Look at him at the G7 trying to wriggle out of his ownership of his oven ready deal. He’s been checked mated and he knows it! I find it so embarrassing to watch the man being interviewed. How did such a great nation like mine have such an out out chancer in charge of the country I’ll never know?
Cast your mind back to a statement that Johnson made on live BBC. He stated he Johnson, was an out and out Zionist! Now you know why the uk is in such a mess, CFI .
No please don't correct yourself Peter you where right the first time lies not falsehoods its about time the house stop this stupid rule of not allowing someone to say to another that what there stating is a lie if its shown to be just that a lie
On the tribes section and Oborne's comment "politics becomes who you follow like a football teams." This is similar but not wholeheartedly true. For the core group of football fans that truly support their team there is no other choice regardless of what happens. Albeit, this does not mean that this support of said football teams always confirms that they are the best or, to relate it to the political, right. The vast majority of football fans in the UK know their team is not the best or, again, like the political, right. A good political example can be seen in Labour from late 2015 to today. Support has grown, dwindled, then dwindled even more, once one realises it is no longer right and, therefore, has a choice to no longer support. There is no such choice in football.
Regarding how Johnson et al can blatantly tell untruths without fear of reprisals....and other such cliches (!) : The rise of social media good with regard to inter-personal communication, bad, regarding opinions as fact for which Johnson can be counted among thousands and thousands who can hear what he spouts in a superficial disinterested way before clicking to re-tweet some kindergarten spat. When there was a slower time to read or listen, digest, consider and reply (re: a letter to a newspaper) the time delay gave the reply more gravitas. The news desk presenters did their own research meticulously to obtain facts or at least a perspective objectively that could be edited by those who were (excuse the bad pun) on the same page. First came across Oborne today in an Owen Jones interview for The Guardian channel. He was impressed by his fair-mindedness and identifying as a conservative in the traditional sense of the word as opposed to NEO-conservative adopted from the USA which also in spite of justifiable criticism on their track record had their own standards (take the impeachment of Nixon for bugging the Whitehouse) Now, to return to social media, a previous president casually announced the justification for monitoring private e mails on the pretext of it being a safeguard against terrorism and that piece of news is glanced at and .....then...........another.............re-tweet...........bland picture of a homecooked meal uploaded to Facebook or Instabore. However, life is wonderful. Appreciate it if you read this far. The sermon hath ended. Have a great weekend, people and thank you, Mary, for hosting this warm exchange with hot passionate erudition from Oborne and a cooler ignited (oxmoronic, excuse me!) and David Leigh.
Johnson was a prolific liar to the public before social media became popular, he lied consistently in his previous Public Office as a journalist in the mainstream Press.
At about 10 mins: why has the lobby-No.10 relationship taken on this new falsehood collaboration? I think a coincidental factor, and one that Johnson's ascendency since Brexit 2016 has uniquely seen in through the door, is the use of social media. By which I mean the technological exploitation of social media for political gain. This is the key, imo, to the emergence of the "post truth era" and is common to the Alt-right & Trump phenomena as well as Brexit & Johnson. It's the creation of memes. This rides on the seconding in of behavioural psychologists, pioneered around 2013 by Strategic Communications with their research unit in UCL. "Most people only read headlines" translated seamlessly into social media pictograms with messages - memes. This is memetic propaganda. So, as with Trumpism, the lies are tossed out, yes for print media but really the target is online social media like Facebook & Twitter. The lie becomes a meme and spreads virally directed by algorithms. The clarifications & corrections come much later if at all. In the meantime an incremental effect has been achieved. I believe Vote Leave and Johnson developed and honed this technology since 2015 and we still see it in operation today. Add to this the use of outsourced fake avatars ("flies" or "trolls") to work in the social media responses to the memes, as well as investment in paying to "boost" and "push" sm posts and we can observe a new and scarily effective online propaganda machine in operation in which the lie or smear or exaggeration is the principal currency. My 2p. Great discussion!
@@alanhat5252 Absolutley. CA was created by Strategic Communications (Nix, Oakes bros, Wheatland) before being taken on by Robert Mercer for the Trump ops as well as the Brexit fraud.
Explain when you call people iars eg What exactly did Trump lie about? Evidence your accusations not just name calling plz - we hear name calling all the time in politics Facts Matter not opinions
All politicians lie, Boris is no worse than anyone else. There's nothing that's going on now that's different to before, its just that Oborne is upset that Boris's ideas are more popular than his own. If someone credible has persuasive proof that Boris lied about something significant he would pay the appropriate price. Oborne's example of a lie being Boris saying ""there are questions to be answered" when someone made a claim that a couple of MPs were Russian stooges is weak and unconvincing. Oborne had no issue in this vid when the lie claiming the message on the Brexit bus said "lets spend 350 million on the NHS" was trotted out. That and his suggestion that the government is far right, racist and won't let lecturers criticise colonialism, doesn't suggest he's particularly honest himself so it's no wonder people aren't buying his snake oil.
@@mikedunn3436 It's doing fine unless Oborne has learnt what a lie actually is and has started caring about lies from people on his side, as well as from people he doesn't like.
Well I'm going to buy it the book that is I love people telling the truth you say all polititions lie does that make it right, so Blair got us into the Iraq war and now Boris has got us into Ukraine all on lies or falsehood or bs it's so refreshing listening to truth .
Peter obornes politics may be Conservative but his honesty as a reporter can not be devalued. He commands respect and I read and listen to him and trust him implicitly even if our politics are opposing
Respect to Peter Oborne for telling the truth on these matters. I have just read his book and it's really shocking at the way our democracy is being subverted.
Recently Peter has spoken of the decline of unbiased reporting in the Telegraph, and indeed all so call serious newspapers; of late, the BBC has shown a similar decline. There is no serious comment on Parliament, Brexit or the EU. There is a general dumbing down of content to the degree that informed viewers and listeners appear to be actively discouraged.
The pillars of a democratic society are: - a judiciary independent of the executive, the right to vote for a parliament, the freedom to practice a religion of choice, and a “clear separation of duties and power” between each of the pillars. Finally, there needs to be just rewards for an individual’s efforts and similarly aligned access to resources.
The lack of challenge suggests that we have evolved from a democracy to a plutocracy and are on a journey towards an oligarchy.
We need more people like him with his intelligence telling it as it actually is and not what they all want you to hear!
intelligence, yes, but with a political bias.
He's seen it from the inside.
An excellent discussion, with many good points by both Peter Oborne and David Leigh. Thank you, OpenDemocracy.
She hasn’t heard anyone changing their minds? She must have not asked anyone, or had her her fingers in her ears!!
Good for you Peter.....keep it up !!
people have not accepted lying. it is endured while always expecting and hoping for better.
for enquiring people, has it not occurred to you that the obvious nexus of power with shameless manipulative deceit, entitlement, absence of empathy, hubris and unaccountability are established 'red flags' of pathological personality disorders.
that is the blind spot - that these people are drawn to positions of power, authority and status like moths to a flame and that they always have been.
regrettably, for better or worse, these behaviours can now be seen more broadly and comprehensibly by the public through the media. give it the clinical name it deserves.
This is a really excellent debate and discussion. I have been plugging away at my very Tory MP and writing to the speaker about the very same issues that Peter Osborne is raising. I have had responses from both, and both responses have seemed to me to be highly unsatisfactory. However it is hugely heartening to hear from Peter that I have been doing or at least trying to do “the right thing”. The present situation seems to me to be both unprecedented and highly dangerous, and once again it is heartening to hear confirmation of that from people much better qualified than myself. And and actually I have reached a conclusion that only a revolution, or something very like it, Will have sufficient heft to remove these aggressive and Unprincipled leaders, who are even at this moment twisting the system yet further in order to ensure the long-term grip on power. I believe we need a written constitution and thorough electoral reform. Best wishes happy Christmas
Thank you for your service to our democracy & society, I hope you are continuing.
I've only watched the first few minutes, but I'm a little worried that his opening gambit was that "there were a few lies, nothing major, from New Labour as far back as the Iraq war and then basically nothing until Johnson in 2019"... What?! Did he sleep through Brexit and the Corbyn era?
I am sure that Peter will agree with me in that it is a question of upbringing. As for this concept of Private and Public Life - in my book we only have ONE life during which we behave well or badly. Fobbing bad behaviour off with the saying " oh but that was his private life" My husband was an Army Officer, a graduate from Sandhurst Academy, was honest and truthful in every respect. I was an RAF Nurse and an NHS Nurse . Neither of us would want to go to war under the command and control of a pathological liar, a coward, a serial adulterer....who would?
Peter
On the 24th December 2020, Prime Minister Boris Johnson gave a statement on the outcome of negotiations with the European Union.
He stated:
"Because there will be no palisade of tariffs on Jan 1.
And there will be no non-tariff barriers to trade.
And instead there will be a giant free trade zone of which we will at once be a member."
I emailed the speaker about this and this is his reply...
Dear Neil,
Mr Speaker has asked me to thank you for your email and to reply on his behalf.
Mr Speaker has asked me to explain that, although this is a subject about which you feel deeply concerned, it is not for the Chair to comment on the accuracy or otherwise of Members’ contributions, or on any subsequent comments or exchanges about them.
Mr Speaker you raise your concerns with the Prime Minister directly, via your local Member of Parliament.
Kind regards,
Josh Ryder
Assistant to the Speaker’s Secretary
Speaker’s Office, House of Commons, London SW1A 0AA
That's a churlish & surprisingly inaccurate response.
The House of Commons has no Chair, the Speakers role is to speak (hence the name) to the Crown conveying Parliament's collective views & (if still alive) return with any responses. As such he has a duty, not least to his own health, to ensure that there are no lies.
Really appreciate & respect Peter for writing this book, (and the last). It's a moral and ethical battle out there. The truth must survive or we are all truly lost.
Particularly touched by his words on the Nolan Principles, which of course only become flawed and useless when the executive is.
I would love to ask everyone,;
Where do we start deradicalising a Britain who's Govt have spent billions on Companies that specialise is psychological abuse / assault on truth - to sell manufactured fear & govt failure? ... especially when there is now a whole industry dedicated to psychologically manipulating how public/ electorate perceive truth. ?
Where the hell do we begin when almost all print and broadcast journalism has fallen in line with Govt?
We stop buying papers stop watching BBC and hopefully people will get there message across that we've had enough of lies and liers
At this present moment in time,my gut feeling is that the government has lost control as has the Bank of England. Last week apparently the IMF issued a statement to all European governments,NOT to give financial support to any of their citizens except for the poorest!
Now it is predicted that by April 2023 gas and electric will be up to £5000!! Also l believe the economy will literally drop,off a cliff this October/November and then we’re on our own. Already there are warnings of blackouts this winter and even water shortages!
Every party con Lab Lib etc are rotten to the core and dance to the tune of the piper WEF.
One other impending disaster is Local councils borrowing to buy commercial property…..what could possibly go wrong?
Apologies for my spouting rubbish,but l feel the rats have left the sinking ship with the family silver. All the best
We begin with subscriptions to openDemocracy (& donations), Bellingcat, Wikileaks & other serious independent media so we can bypass at least some of the lies.
As a 71yo, the word 'decency' was commonly used
throughout the British population. Everyone basically
knew what it meant no matter the context in which it
was used, it seemed to have a somewhat
universal/common acknowledgement. A man would
be called a 'decent man', a book could be called a
'decent read', if we said he has no sense of decency,
everyone knew basically what that meant. This 'universal/common' understanding included other
terms in the 1950s through to the 70s that could be
written on a page to describe the cultural/population's
common values. That cannot be done in today's Britain.
In fact, in my personal situation, I went to live in sunnier
climes in 1976 but always thought I would retire back
to Britain but watching what I think is Britain's
cultural/social/political decline over the last 10 or so
years made me change my mind.
I simply would not want to live in the Britain of today!
I'm a decade younger than you & I too have witnessed the decline, I believe it's acceptance was marked by the 1979 General Election.
@@alanhat5252 That certainly was a
significant election that changed much,
I agree. However. over the last couple of decades, I have become interested in the notion of, 'The 6 stages of Empires', as written about in various books. The common patterns of, emergence, the development stages and eventual decline patterns of all past Empires, is what has
happened with GB, it are currently being in the final stage? Some books say there are
5 stages, others say 6, 7 or 8, but the
basics are the same.
What makes that interesting, for me at least, is that the commonality of stages
over thousands of years and numerous
Empires, suggests it is therefore the intrinsic nature of our species where
the common problems that create these patterns are born?
Even "Private Eye" has been driven leftward by the mendacity of the British press. Recommended. 🦉
Meanwhile the mainstream media spent a whole year on "partygate"... They'll do anything to cover up the REAL muck lest Labour get back in.
Bob Woffinden, author of "Miscarriages of Justice" and many other investigations, eventually got the heave-ho from The Guardian.
I like people who tell it like it is.
Now is the time of monsters.
Superb book and excellent vid. Many thanks.
Thank you for an excellent discussion with eloquent participants. But - notwithstanding some discussion in the early part on the horrific silence of the mainstream press (and a bit from Peter in concluding remarks) - the elephant that is still stomping around the room is the dreadful state of the corporate-owned press/media. Their complicit silence on the lies n the public arena by the government surely is a huge contributor to the public's lack of anger on this. The press leads the news agenda and controls the temperature of the daily debate. How do we get them to raise that temperature and get people angry about the real cancers in public life, rather than angry at foreigners and 'scroungers'? Can this happen while the press is overwhelmingly controlled by vested corporate, deregulating interests?
Fascinating and instructive. One of the problemsd we have in the UK, however, is the poverty of political thinking. Here, for example, we find Peter referring back to Burke as some kind of ideal Tory model. Burke was, in fact, a die-hard traditional right-winger who very clearly supported inequality, the political and economic dominance of the landowning aristocracy, made clear his view that Britons had, by tradition, abandoned any possibility of political change and full participatory democracy. He was a beneficiary of the system of rotten boroughs - and considered universal suffrage an outrage that would force candidates for election to lower themselves by auctioning their integrity in exchange for the votes of the vulgar herd. Burke was also - as it happens - an antisemite - as anyone knows who has read his "Reflections on the Revolution in France".
I agree, many people mistake Burke's reference to tyranny as meaning a tyrant dictator but in fact he's actually refering to the tyanny of the mob or masses.
Burke was very much of his time, what he was capable of thinking was defined by his era.
He was right about the tyranny of the mob though, mobs tend to be highly undemocratic & follow the loudest voice without any consideration of the message or connotations. We see this with the 2016 referendum in which the consensus view since the early 1950s of 2:1 in favour was swung by loud voices to 1:1 with many still swayed 7 years later.
In his era similar loud voices (justified or unjustified) overthrew the entire French State just 22 miles across the Channel & we had so many refugees that, while he was a sitting MP, a very panicked Act of Parliament was passed to block them (1792 Aliens Act which, thankfully, was ignored by port authorities).
How do you see Burke's views now that we can see how Zionism (a term uncoined in his era) has played out? Are you aware of the situation in Palestine? The destabilization of the region? Israel's role in English & American politics or its Press coverage?
How fitting that this discussion on lies opens with an advert for Nigel Farage's latest get rich quick scam *vomit emoji*
Brilliant, insightful discussion. Not sure where the opposition is these days...
Press is complicit because they are frightened of Leveson 2 if Tory's lose power...
The Opposition is hobnobbing in Israel.
I really appreciate the thoughts, understanding and truths discussed in this interview.
Its a strange time indeed. How will uk be in 5 years?
JRM has also perpetrated lies on an industrial scale, so he is equally guilty.
There's not much democracy around the UK at the moment
You can always tell when Mr Johnson is telling lies because his lips start moving.
….does he ever sleep?
Did anyone else get bloody f'raj and his weird financial products as the pre-roll ad?? How ironic!!
No, lucky me I also did not get Zionist propaganda 😁
"We [the UK] are a democracy". Really?
How much difference is there between the parties on offer? To what extent is the elected party obliged to stick to the promises it made to get elected? To what extent are the decisions of judges, in political trials, based on an impartial knowledge of the law? To what extent do the government and its institutions operate within the law? How much chance would a Corbyn led Labour party have had of ceasing unconditional support for Israel or of getting the UK to quit NATO had he been elected?
Taking back control was the promise of being back control to parliamentary democracy. UK democracy is actually very fragile as we don’t have a constitution which very importantly outlines the limits of power of the executive!
We _do_ have a Constitution, parts of which _are_ written down, you may find helpful the Bill of Rights (1688) & couple of Parliament Acts.
"gatherings" at Downing Street. Peter will have enough footnotes here for a sequel.
PLEASE don't refer to Boris Johnson as 'Boris'. He isn't yours or my friend and just plays into his pr narrative.
Sorry for replying from a fair bit into the future! I agree with you completely- this insistence on throwing around the word ‘Boris’ lends him this sort of chummy, blokey, mate-from-down-the-pub image- one completely at odds with his actual insidious character. Oh, good old ‘Boris’- we can really trust him! For some time now I’ve been trying to actively refer to him as Mr Johnson- I refuse to perpetuate this ridiculous but subtle brainwashing.
My fave is Dim Jon Sun, but I was calling him BoJo because I thought everyone would complete that title as The Clown; but apparently that is a name of endearment too.
His full name is Alex Falafel Poundshop Churchill Johnson.
BojoHaram is a grauniad's contributers pen name, which I like.
I fully agree with you on the "Boris" issue. It makes me furious. How can professionals keep falling into that "good old Boris, your personal clown" trap. Don't get it. It was mainly Mary Fitzgerald. Oborne did it once, I think, but checked himself immediately.
@@gertrudlehmann4869 As if his background definitely isn’t one of staggering privilege and affluence. No, Boris is not ‘the man of the people’, he does not ‘understand the people’s priorities’, and he almost certainly is *not* ‘one of us’.
It's all due to the concept of it all as a game, 'Big Players' etc.
And that is just a tactic in the game of convincing people that, in a democracy, voting is pointless. Thus Conservative supporters, by and large, vote (1995 was an exception) and if Labour voters don't vote then The Toris stay in Government.
What’s the price of access, Peter?
21:16 @openDemocracy please do! Please talk about technology & especially about psychographic profiling & manipulation as practiced by CambridgeAnalytica & others.
Shouldn't David Leigh and Luke Harding be in gaol for publishing the redact code for the American War Crimes documents released by Wikileaks?
No
Grieve was a disgrace and I was delighted when Beaconsfield finally got the opportunity vote him out.
Wow!
How?
Peter we all make mistakes in life that’s part of life. It’s been able to see we made a mistake and admit it to ourselves and the wider world that we made a mistake.
The problem with Brexit it was built on a pack of lies now the Brexiter in chief is try to justify to his nation and the outside world unjustifiable!
Look at him at the G7 trying to wriggle out of his ownership of his oven ready deal. He’s been checked mated and he knows it! I find it so embarrassing to watch the man being interviewed. How did such a great nation like mine have such an out out chancer in charge of the country I’ll never know?
Cast your mind back to a statement that Johnson made on live BBC. He stated he Johnson, was an out and out Zionist! Now you know why the uk is in such a mess, CFI .
@@dermotcorbin6795 also LFI & their sponsors covering the Opposition.
44:11 the Opium Wars was a disgusting episode which should be widely known, at least in overview.
No please don't correct yourself Peter you where right the first time lies not falsehoods its about time the house stop this stupid rule of not allowing someone to say to another that what there stating is a lie if its shown to be just that a lie
On the tribes section and Oborne's comment "politics becomes who you follow like a football teams." This is similar but not wholeheartedly true. For the core group of football fans that truly support their team there is no other choice regardless of what happens. Albeit, this does not mean that this support of said football teams always confirms that they are the best or, to relate it to the political, right. The vast majority of football fans in the UK know their team is not the best or, again, like the political, right. A good political example can be seen in Labour from late 2015 to today. Support has grown, dwindled, then dwindled even more, once one realises it is no longer right and, therefore, has a choice to no longer support. There is no such choice in football.
Regarding how Johnson et al can blatantly tell untruths without fear of reprisals....and other such cliches (!) : The rise of social media good with regard to inter-personal communication, bad, regarding opinions as fact for which Johnson can be counted among thousands and thousands who can hear what he spouts in a superficial disinterested way before clicking to re-tweet some kindergarten spat. When there was a slower time to read or listen, digest, consider and reply (re: a letter to a newspaper) the time delay gave the reply more gravitas. The news desk presenters did their own research meticulously to obtain facts or at least a perspective objectively that could be edited by those who were (excuse the bad pun) on the same page. First came across Oborne today in an Owen Jones interview for The Guardian channel. He was impressed by his fair-mindedness and identifying as a conservative in the traditional sense of the word as opposed to NEO-conservative adopted from the USA which also in spite of justifiable criticism on their track record had their own standards (take the impeachment of Nixon for bugging the Whitehouse) Now, to return to social media, a previous president casually announced the justification for monitoring private e mails on the pretext of it being a safeguard against terrorism and that piece of news is glanced at and .....then...........another.............re-tweet...........bland picture of a homecooked meal uploaded to Facebook or Instabore. However, life is wonderful. Appreciate it if you read this far. The sermon hath ended. Have a great weekend, people and thank you, Mary, for hosting this warm exchange with hot passionate erudition from Oborne and a cooler ignited (oxmoronic, excuse me!) and David Leigh.
Johnson was a prolific liar to the public before social media became popular, he lied consistently in his previous Public Office as a journalist in the mainstream Press.
At about 10 mins: why has the lobby-No.10 relationship taken on this new falsehood collaboration?
I think a coincidental factor, and one that Johnson's ascendency since Brexit 2016 has uniquely seen in through the door, is the use of social media. By which I mean the technological exploitation of social media for political gain. This is the key, imo, to the emergence of the "post truth era" and is common to the Alt-right & Trump phenomena as well as Brexit & Johnson.
It's the creation of memes. This rides on the seconding in of behavioural psychologists, pioneered around 2013 by Strategic Communications with their research unit in UCL. "Most people only read headlines" translated seamlessly into social media pictograms with messages - memes. This is memetic propaganda.
So, as with Trumpism, the lies are tossed out, yes for print media but really the target is online social media like Facebook & Twitter.
The lie becomes a meme and spreads virally directed by algorithms. The clarifications & corrections come much later if at all. In the meantime an incremental effect has been achieved. I believe Vote Leave and Johnson developed and honed this technology since 2015 and we still see it in operation today.
Add to this the use of outsourced fake avatars ("flies" or "trolls") to work in the social media responses to the memes, as well as investment in paying to "boost" and "push" sm posts and we can observe a new and scarily effective online propaganda machine in operation in which the lie or smear or exaggeration is the principal currency.
My 2p. Great discussion!
great comment
The (Australien) "Honest Government Ads" have excellent treatment of "may-mays".
Have you discovered the work of Cambridge Analytica? The Observer's Carole Cadwalladr gave excellent & extensive coverage.
@@alanhat5252 Absolutley. CA was created by Strategic Communications (Nix, Oakes bros, Wheatland) before being taken on by Robert Mercer for the Trump ops as well as the Brexit fraud.
You have no idea and you are about to find out.
i mean david leigh lets not pretend that DT got a way with it
who or what is "DT"?
Explain when you call people iars eg What exactly did Trump lie about?
Evidence your accusations not just name calling plz - we hear name calling all the time in politics
Facts Matter not opinions
All politicians lie, Boris is no worse than anyone else. There's nothing that's going on now that's different to before, its just that Oborne is upset that Boris's ideas are more popular than his own. If someone credible has persuasive proof that Boris lied about something significant he would pay the appropriate price. Oborne's example of a lie being Boris saying ""there are questions to be answered" when someone made a claim that a couple of MPs were Russian stooges is weak and unconvincing. Oborne had no issue in this vid when the lie claiming the message on the Brexit bus said "lets spend 350 million on the NHS" was trotted out. That and his suggestion that the government is far right, racist and won't let lecturers criticise colonialism, doesn't suggest he's particularly honest himself so it's no wonder people aren't buying his snake oil.
That comment hasn’t aged well has it?
@@mikedunn3436 It's doing fine unless Oborne has learnt what a lie actually is and has started caring about lies from people on his side, as well as from people he doesn't like.
Well I'm going to buy it the book that is I love people telling the truth you say all polititions lie does that make it right, so Blair got us into the Iraq war and now Boris has got us into Ukraine all on lies or falsehood or bs it's so refreshing listening to truth .
@@stanpennycook5414 Osborne is a liar too, you're sadly deluded if you think his book is the gospel.