Can Apple Do This? Thoughts on Arm+Thunderbolt
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 7 ก.ย. 2020
- www.asrock.com/MB/Intel/Z490%...
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Wendell, you've sure come a long way from being two eyes in the crack between monitors. So glad we've still got you around
Yeah, sometimes you feel like a babe in the woods when you are on the leading edge. I was assigned to the prototype team for a Firewire HDD and the first thing I noticed in the specifications was how each revision conflicted with the previous one. It was impossible to make a device that would be 100% compatible with all the versions.
I suspect Apple will create their own version of the specification (like they did with SCSI) and force the vendors to follow them.
Me unable to sleep at 3AM: watching this video
Wendell blabbing on about a random topic: *Don't worry, I got you fam*
I just discovered this channel. I am instantly hooked on your brand of tech commentary. It's so sober and thoughtful and you know so damn much. Honestly the best thing I've found on TH-cam during the pandemic. Thanks!
DrMOS doesn't stand for Doctor MOS, I made that mistake too. Apparently it stands for Driver MOS.
It might as well be Doctor by now, they've earned it.
This was a fascinating insight and really shows some of the details missing when major tech transitions happen. And yes...I’m old enough to remember the FireWire transition and loads of my kit not working.
Great video again, this is the sort of technical content I come to L1 for.
Glad you enjoyed it! ~Editor Amber
100% agree
I'd be willing to bet that they'll lock out hardware ID's on ARM until they're able to certify things (like they did GPU docks early on).
That means all accessories for Apple will cost way more than necessary, a cut of that goes to apple. You don't become the most profitable business on earth with fair pricing.
I like the videos of you just talking about tech the best, actually.
thunderbolt quirks are non-trivial. never anything you want to hear out of a device that has direct memory access that circumvents the CPU.
@starshipeleven Because x86 IOMMU has such a great history and proven test cases? The few people I've seen get into details on the system consider it a mess likewise.
Uhh . . . . RDMA ?
Rdma is a new and fun exploit vector. You can. Do Spectre/meltdown over the network! Haha. Story for another day.
@starshipeleven Well, I'm pretty sure almost non-existent, maybe ? (maybe beside some test bench or another niche stuffs)
But hey, still answer the question, if 'my device' is a datacenter grade thing, I'm pretty sure i want that thing to have support for RDMA natively or at least can be worked out with some add-on(s)
@starshipeleven Given the 50 years of legacy glue in x86, I'm betting RISC-V will has a better chance of getting a "just works" version of iommu. And thunderbolt is an insane idea without a solid mmu implemented for dma traffic.
They really need to drop the U from USC-C.
The real important question is; will USB4 solve all these problems with Thunderbolt or will it be another iteration of the same problems?
I bought asus thunderbolt expansion card a long time ago. That didn't work. Then I tried installing and uninstalling like every month. I couldn't just give up since I bought it for an audio interface that is almost one grand. I thought I might be just out of luck with this particular expansion card, so I ordered gigabyte thunderbolt expansion card. Then It worked for a while without the plug and play feature. After windows update, it disappeared. The total cost of the two expansion card is not so big, but the time I spent and the actual peripherals I bought for the thunderbolt connection are significant. It's just my experience with the thunderbolt. I like this channel. My English skill is limited, but I learn from this channel a lot. Thanks.
i remember firewire and powerpc, actualy had one.
Firewire was a nightmare on pc. Was it any decent on powerpc?
@@nocturnal0072 FireWire was fine for me on both PowerMacs and Intel Macs. I still have some working FireWire devices, such as drives. Most of the problems related to FireWire on Intel Macs were introduced later, when signed kernel extensions became necessary (many older drivers were unsigned, and consequently couldn't be used without tinkering).
If you're ever in doubt about Wendell's power. The bloke tried to get thunderbolt working on RISC by himself! Amazing
Enjoyable content, despite of not really understanding 80% of it. Keep it up :)
I doubt many video production companies are gonna switch to ARM based Mac's until at least the 2nd revision. That was my experience when I worked in the industry during the PowerPC to x86 migration, as well as the os9 to OSX migration. And if the industry waits long enough, the TB on ARM problem will have fixed itself, you would expect.
What production house is gonna switch away from Threadripper and nVidia? Apple will have to bring some fucking heat to make that happen.
It kinda feels like they are working on Thunderbolt 2 and starting with a clean slate.
I really do appreciate your videos. They are technical enough that it stretches my knowledge and I learn new things, which is a great experience. And I get to listen to someone who not only knows that they are talking about but can convey the information in a great, conversational way.
My first computer was an Apple ][+ clone I soldered together, along with all the peripheral boards. I saw one of the first Lisas in Canada, and I have gone through the 68000 Mac, the PowerPC Macs, and the current Intel Macs. In terms of the ARM based Macs...my fear isn't so much the hardware, but the software. I really hate the gated garden that iOS is, and I hope that Apple doesn't fully castrate the solid Unix underpinnings that Mac OS has in its support for the ARM processor.
Yes I remember Firewire on PC awhile back.
Had some motherboards with this port and some of my Soundblaster cards came with the same port.
I just never used it for anything as I didn't have any peripheral devices needing this kind of connection.
I should check out my old Power Center 150 machine in storage, I can't recall all the ports on it.
ha ha the joke's on you.
my hair is already grey.
Ramble away, my friend, ramble away
This really helped Wendell, thanks for this. You are one of the few hacking at this, your investigations are awesome.
As an owner of a 16" macbook with a caldigit TS3+ dock I can tell you that I still regularly run into issues. Apple fixed a bit with the recent catalina updates, but the first 6 months I've had it (since november or something) it did sudden reboots at least on a weekly basis.
Wendell, I loved this video. Keep at it!
Great video on Arm and Thunderbolt
USB C... damn it. You were the chosen one
Some of what you were talking about is kind of why I have been lukewarm about USB-C. While I am glad the industry is standardizing on a single connector standard, there is more fragmentation than ever about what is actually supported over that connector.
level1rambles
We need a video about RISC V and thunderbolt.
I don't imagine anyone is close with that. But it would be amazing if someone figured it out.
Actually, I was wondering about Power and Thunderbolt.
first let risc-v mature like arm.
and design high performance core.
4:06 to be fair, since 2018 all four thunderbolt ports on all macbook pros utilize 4 pcie lanes. The reason they even had to use pcie x2 before that was simply because intels chips at the time only offered 12 lanes.
Are those new scene transitions? They're very smooth. Or maybe they're just so smooth I didn't notice them before.
This is the best video available on this kind of thing. Thank you so much for it. Need more stuff like this. :D
Wow Firewire there something you dont hear everyday............I still remember My kids asking me if 1394 worked like USB back in the day & Trying to explain to young kids about Firewire back then...... & I got a Confused Stare .... So I just said NO! ...lol.
Cow}:-o)
Did you explain to them that USB isn't really a bus.
@@KarlHamilton they were lost when i tried to tell them the diff size Firewire's like 400 ..800.. etc & once I saw the Blank Stare's .. I made a DAD override Decision and just Said NO ..I was too Busy recording Cattle Info at time & my Kids love to ask complex questions when I am the Busiest! Cow}:-o)
Realy DUUUMMMB stuff.. love it ^_^ the best euphemism on this channel :D
I wonder if you could get a Thunderbolt addin card working on a POWER9 system?
So is there a need to backport thunderbolt 3 to apple-silicon, or do ya think theyll just go forward through the USB4 style (which supposedly uses elements of thunderbolt)
Is it possible to get a copy of the modified thunderbolt 3 capable bios for the x399 designare or the x399 xtreme? Or is there a guide available to do it yourself?
Usbc products should come with a 32 character string describing them. Everyother character describes a spec like usb version or hdmi support, and follow it with "c" for officially certified, "n" for not supported, "p" for in house tested to probably work with quirks.
my Taichi x570 plus titan ridge is great with quantum2 audio... 1.5ms latency and rock solid
Sounds challenging for companies like Universal Audio, who went pretty much all in on TB3 on their Apollo interfaces.
They’ll just fix it a bit as they go...great video!
1) like the video
2) listen to Wendell the wise
Wendle, you should make an update video on the current state of things with thunderbolt and arm.
Do you think that Apple may just move to USB-4 on the first Gen ARM products and drop the whole Thunderbolt nomenclature, and doing what Apple always does and develop in house drivers through some weird Kernel Kext and software APIs to do the conversion until the bugs are gone? Kind of like Rosetta? That way Apple can say they have the very first USB4 device with open standards?
target drive = apple + T lol. i remember those days. it was pretty cool. i was able to save files on a hard drive that wouldn't boot up and started to crap out. sadly, it's no longer available on current apple hardware. they should bring it back since MBPs use soldered SSD. if you don't back up and that drive craps out, target drive would be a good first solution to try.
where do you look on the internet for that Wendell? @15:37
Shouldn't USB4 come around the corner sometime soon?
And for PCIE we have the unpopular OCuLink in x4 and x8. Would rather use that than Thunderbolt
USB4 includes standards for PCIe over USB, Thunderbolt certification will basically only be required for use of the name.
You are a legend.
To those saying "Oh only Apple users use Thunderbolt! This doesnt matter!" There are a large amount of us in the professional audio engineering community that deploy Thunderbolt as our main digital I/O for AD/DA conversion on both Windows and Apple systems. I work with Universal Audio Apollo/UAD systems on Windows and I can tell you, as soon as I saw the ARM announcement, I new it was going to be a huge travesty, considering Apple's consistent treatment of the at-large professional audio industry (Avid, Presonus, IK, etc). They CONSISTENTLY screw their software partner client base, then turn cheek and tell the public "oh, its gonna be wonderful, itll just work! Its magic!" No, its not. Apple is going to abandon them. As usual. It'll take a year, as software engineers at the third party companies scramble to unfuck what Apple sells on their integrates systems.
Wait what risc-v board is that?
I mean, it is included in the USB4 standard, so they will have to support it at that time.
I've never used Thunderbolt. I've never had anything that supports it, nor felt the need for it. Whatever I've needed to do there has always been a better solution.
Is it a wood-paneled station-wagon?
You called it! No eGPU support on M1 Macs.
Thats some extensive hardware and software knowledgebase you have, I imagine getting thunderbolt to work on any unsupported device isnt easy, and then you pull that board out at the end.
I'm genuinely curious on your job history Wendell. Hogwarts IT should be in there.
I like this style video. Keep talking, Wendel.
Does this video help me with anything I'm gonna be using any time soon? No.
But do I enjoy Wendell talking about technical stuff? Absolutely.
They probably just gonna work on thunderbolt on arm just to have it on the next iphone Pro XD
On a more serious note, will the work of apple (if they are going thought the hassle of make it work) be a bridge to have tb working on other non apple ARM based chips (snapdragon?) Or will it be more like a hardware implementation on the SoC?
Initial Aarch64 support was already added to the Linux kernel in the last 5.8 release. This was nothing more than allowing thunderbolt to be enabled when building for Aarch64. The main hurdle we are focused on and is generally the problem is getting the ACPI tables for PCIe setup, and firmware first configuration to handle the PCIe hotplugging that is needed to support it. The security aspect is once the memory regions are setup you then need to pass those over to the SMMU to handle the security aspect.
Could Apple use USB4 in Tunneled PCI Express mode to replace TB3 functionality? It would mean one less certification required from Intel.
malicious determination isn't thwarted by any "sane" security measures.
I thought the new usb4 implementation was supposed to technically be Thunderbolt compatible?
I kinda wonder if apple is aiming to implement usb4 since it's an actual well-ish defined 'standard', and hoping that it will work.
My buddy didn't believe me back in the day when i told him that weird port on the PS2 next to the usb ports was actually firewire, he still doesn't believe me.
Why was that there? I never ran into anything that actually made use of it.
Thunderbolt is very much like 1394 for me - i don't own anything that uses either and don't really see the point.
but my newest mac is a 2008 pro so there's that
As an Apple Person who dabbles in other stuff, I have concerns about Mac on Apple Silicon. I don't have any TB devices so I'm not terribly concerned. It's more Apple 'owning' (meaning making) nearly everything. They won't have any fingers to point at other people to blame them, except TSMC maybe if they can't keep the progression going.
I didn't have any issues with my firewire camcorder on 040 mac or Core2Duo mac. I will admit its a small sample size of devices.
I remember Firewire such a pita during the transition.
Seeing it's Apple I believe they are looking at this problem in reverse, I suspect them to fork an "Apple way of doing thunderbolt" on their platform that hardware manufacturers needs to test against and inform potential customers about.
Apple has always dealt with third-party hardware compatibility as a manufacturer issue not theirs.
The fact is apple controle the vast majority of computers that are used with thunderbolt. (yes other brands are slowly moving to it but apple have been there full time for years already). If you make a thunderbolt device today you test agaist macs with macOS (running apples thunderbolt drivers on macOS) since 80 to 90% of your users will be using your device this way.
Apple ARM will be a walled garden. I'd be shocked if it even has USB after a couple of years. They'll have some new flavor of Lightning in a couple of years.
I’m banking on the new RS232 standard unifying the technology, rumour has it the speed could be as high at 48k/s.
This video is a look at a modern day mad scientist.
Excited to see a hot plug pcie GPU for ARM phones running dual boot windows and android
I'm legit excited for such possibility. But if I can run windows, I wouldn't care about android.
@@EmreA just wouldn't want my phone being windows lol. We've seen what that looks like
Ah, storytime with Wendell... Life is good!
Aren't USB and Thunderbolt basically merging, though? Seems like TB is on the verge of obsolescing. Or am I completely off base?
The thing that I hate about USB-C is that you can't look at any given cable/port and know exactly what it's capable of doing without saying "Screw it, hold my beer..." and just plugging something in and seeing what happens. To me, that feels like a step backwards from USB-A.
yeah my caldigit ts3+ is kinda sketch down to using different causes it to go apeshit
FW 400/800 was magnificent. Especially compared to other standards of the day. Was in my 2003 17” PowerBook, Quad G5, etc. Heck, I had the iPod with FireWire. Still have FW800 in a couple Intel Macs I still run. But I haven’t used it once since USB 3.0 & Thunderbolt came out.
Bogus, because I still love the fact that FireWire basically could act Fibre-like, with Full-Duplex, for Direct Attached Storage. Not much other mumbo jumbo. Kinda wish Apple kept iterating on it, rather than kill it before FW1600/3200 came out.
Oh and Sony’s i.Link FW400 was pure hot sticky garbage.
Wendell starts talking about Firewire...
* cue Tommy Boy meme *
"Apple!? What'd you do?!"
What I find most interesting is that once Apple manages to integrate Thunderbolt into the SoC, and manages to reunify the two operating systems they have, they are not only able to run iOS apps on their laptops as they showed but also desktop apps on a phone or tablet connected to a Thunderbolt monitor that can connect additional peripherals or even an external GPU.
It's not clear whether they would want to actually do it, but I don't see what would stop them.
While you will be able to run iOS apps on macOS there is not plan to run macOS apps on iOS. The main reason for this is macOS apps expect a very differnt memory subsystem. on iOS there is no swap (and very small amounts of ram) so apps cant just load things into memory there is no virtual memory macOS apps (even if apple did port the UI framework) would just be killed within seconds of opening since they assume they can make use of virtual memory.
iOS opted to be like this from day one to force devs to be carefull it is one of the reasons iOS devices use less power than android due to devs being trained that thier apps will be killed if they use more than 30% of the physical memory on the device.
Right, memory capacity is surely a problem for a lot of applications, but I don't think it's that far off: the embedded NVMe is probably already capable enough to be used for swap space in that scenario or could be upgraded.
The top iPad models today ship with 6GB, phones with 4GB, compared to 8GB on the entry-level Macbook. The cost difference between a 32Gbit LP-DDR4x and a 64Gbit LP-DDR4 is under $30, and with partial-array self-refresh (PASR) there should be little difference in standby power consumption. Linux/Android never supported PASR upstream, but iOS totally could if they don't already do.
I'm still not saying that this is actually what Apple are planning to do, but it also wouldn't surprise me if they did.
Wow. Can't believe the iBin is 7 years old already.
Standardise all the things!
Apple will select a few leading Thunderbolt products and expect the others to get their products to work with Apple. That's how the food chain works. Apple doesn't have to do the work, the peripheral makers have to. And actually, that's how it has always been.
Will thunderbolt eventually merge into usb 4?
I think Firewire's still on the A+ Cert test.
It's I think patently obvious that Apple will put out these arm silicon based macs with USB4 connections. I was there for the PPC to Intel transition, nothing I used with firewire had any issues at all.
According to OWC's chats (OWC makes plenty of TB devices), they admit it's "never the license fees", but the actual TB certification on non-Intel platforms. An interesting read on Arm + Thunderbolt from OWC's founder & CEO, back in June:
blog.macsales.com/63118-thunderbolt-on-apple-processor-macs/
Wendell is Nero Wolfe. I guess that makes Ryan Archie Goodwin.
Firewire, yeah. Potentially 3x ethernet speeds, why didn't it catch on? Maybe totally unrestricted access to all physical memory isn't great.
I remember USB was found in intel and it became an open standard, why not thunderbolt?
You never know, the usb-c on iPad Pro may well be thunderbolt under the hood.
So in the real world...mine anyways: Enterprise Desktop Support...Thunderbolt is awesome and Thunderbolt sucks. So this video perfectly describes what's going on. Thanks!
It doesn't take a hardware architectural change to break everything. Microsoft has done it with changes to their driver model for ages.
not very "universal" anymore is it. and here i was looking for a laptop with thunderbolt (slowly backs away)
The real question is whether future thunderbolt implementations will resolve thunderspy.
thunderbolt will be like firewire.. abandonware?
The fact that seemingly all USB-C ports are different is a massive problem for the tech illiterate.
@@RubberGopher Well almost. One annoying thing is when I have to explain to people that this charger is not going up to 12v and is just 5v so your new phone won't charge with that old brick even though the cable fits.
That was a problem with micro-USB too, but that usually stayed at 5v, just that some chargers couldn't give enough Ampere. USB-C can go all the way from 5v to 20v? It's just a nightmare.
PS/2 connector?
Actually it wouldn't be bad if apple made a sane version of Thunderbolt and dropped some of the cruft, but Apple being Apple I have low hope of them doing that and being open about it
Thunderbolt needs to take the way of firewire
Apple probably isn't starting from zero on this, right?
I would think that Apple knows,what they’re doing. Power PC with FireWire worked well. Apple was losing interest in FireWire by the time they moved to x86, and were beginning to depreciate it already.
This is different. Apple is betting it’s future on their new chips, and they’ve been planning this for years. It’s not something they just decided to do. They have more than a few Thunderbolt engineers, from what I’m told. You can get they’re putting a lot of work into this.
I think its more likely they will come up with their own standard. Like Apple was shy when it comes to moneygrabs.