I just noticed that Messmer is actually a great foil to Miquella. All the trailers made Messmer look like a diabolical, genoocidal psychopath whose actions were so evil that he was erased from history. But in game he’s actually a pretty chill dude who was well liked and inspired loyalty from the people around him like Rellana and Commander Gaius, Radahn even looked up to him as a big brother. When one of his Black knights betrays him, he doesn’t have him tortured or killed like a typical villian would, he just imprisons him and mourns the loss of a brother at arms. He even has an entire clinic in his castle for treating and trying to cure the shaman jars. That same castle is also built in a way that hides and protects his mother’s village. It’s clear he only did evil things because Marika ordered him to, and it becomes really tragic that he was essentially abandoned by her and only realized it upon death. If he was actually allowed to be his own person and pursue his own goals and ambitions, I feel like he could have been one of the most revered demi gods, right up there with Radahn and Godwyn. He instead ends up dying alone and abandoned with no legacy to leave behind since he was erased from history. A fate that not even the omen brothers suffered. Meanwhile Miquella is said to be a beautiful kind hearted savior who in reality is a monster who only inspires loyalty because it’s literally his ability to enchant and manipulate people. He casts aside his humanity in order to become a god and seeks to enslave everyone beneath him under the guise of love. Fantastic Juxtaposition and misdirection on Fromsoft’s part.
I have this feeling about him... We now know he was a victim as everyone else of his mother undoubtedly. But I feel he had a more important mission than what we see, and I'm still trying to figure it out so here I go.: Now we know the characters of TLB and LoS meet each other, they even hang around together sometimes. Renalla and Rellana are the same age, Gaius, Radahn Messmer, etc. So everyone knew Messmer, but nobody said anything about him anymore, so EVERYONE must know the LOS exist, but by painting him with all this blasphemous symbols of snake, fire, etc, she would make sure no one ever talked about it anymore, but why was she trying to hide it so bad? Somehow Marika in her master scheme... nailed almost everything she needed to, after all, she is a goddess. What if the cleansing fire of the lands between was trying to hide something else, to wipe out any record about how she became a goddess to avoid someone else doing so: Miquella. Marika would have known something was wrong with that charming boy, and he would become a real threat to everyone, so she asks Messmer to use his power to erase the LOS, at the same time she gets a bit of revenge for everything she suffered and endured with the hornsent and every other species, but maybe even she (or Messmer) took the caution of safeguarding some record to all that ever existed... the specimen storehouse preserved history and knowledge in stone, which actually can survive fire, had it been a normal library (as Midra's Manse) with paper books everything would have been burned away. Is a symbolic representation of Messmer as the keeper of the knowledge and history of TLB. Anyway, returning to why maybe this was the plot, Marika knowing Miquella's scheme scope and intentions could have figured out Miquella's original targets: Mogh and Godwyn (therefore the Moghwyn palace and dynasty would make sense), so she hurried up and got Godwyn killed. He was after all "as good as" Radahn: strong, brave, loved by many; he was the golden boy, his dead brought Marika down and started the Shattering, every demi-god parted ways.Now, Godwyn was (as far as we know) really close to Miquella, he even tried the eclipse thing to revive him, but his corpse was way out of use now and he needed someone as good fit consort as he was: Radahn, so he changed targets, but not plans. Messmer carried a huge importance lore wise and this would make sense (at least in my head). I know maybe there are loose ends, but I don't have enough time to read every artifact and gather every last piece of information so feel free (or rather help me!) to shape this theory or debunk it.
@@leonardodelgado2111pretty good theory actually. And if you take into acct that marika was playing 4D chess I wouldn’t put it pass her having a contingency plan for when miquella attempted to reach godhood. In addition to that she’s still guiding us in the land of shadow. As bad of mother she was I’ve always seen marika as that being that lives on the by any means necessary motto. When you really think about it throughout the base game we’re doing miquella dirty work by killing Radahn n mogh so he can use em. Considering that aspect, I think your theory is kinda spot on
" But in game he’s actually a pretty chill dude" - I wouldn't exactly call the orchestrator of a genocide a "pretty chill dude". He is a victim of his mother too who banished him into the Shadowlands under the guise of his mission, but yeah, still essentially a mass murderer.
Marika's enemies: Fire giants and the Fell god. Dragons, beasts and the hornsents. Whatever is associated with the rune of Death. Messmer and Melina, cursed by the fire giants and fell god, depicted by them being fire kindlings and only having a single eye (symbol of the fell god). Morgott and Mohg, cursed by the hornsent, to grow horns, tails, wings - The looks that Marika despised since her shaman tribe was slaughtered by them. Malenia and Miquella, cursed by the absence of death and cycle of life, resembled by one rotting(eternally in the late stage of life) and one in childhood.
since hornsent were her first enemy, marika probably thinks back on what they did whenever she encounters a new group of people and then wipes them out because she perceives them to be a future threat. also the fact that the hornsent seem to think murdering people and stuffing them into jars turns them in saints is wild and is what they did to marikas people.
Mesmer had two eyes but one was Plucked out not to mention the snakes that are literally apart of him there isn’t any mention of the fire giants his fire is different and might come from some differing Source such as how his armor says that his Marika wanted him to become a symbol of fear often which Fire does
@@michaelblevins1651naw, at least one item mentioned the fell god, but there are to many mesmer items for me to quote it at the moment. But I definitely know the fell god was mentioned in reference to mesmer somewhere. Also, his furnace golems have giants faces on the legs.
Mohg nd Morgott are omen which is a curse from the crucible. I think its possible that “omen” is a derogatory term for hornsent considering the hornsent are from a time in which the crucible reigned.
The suprise in his voice when he say "thou'rt... tarnished!". It conveys his feelings of being betrayed by his mother. Some graceless tarnished is Elden Lord while I, your son, have been abandoned.
Uh Godwyn hello? Let me know if this sounds familiar: Firstborn son of a ruler with the previous being ruled by Ancient Dragons and befriends them to start a cult of warriors paying tribute. Also wields Golden Lightning and influences the storm.
@@puzzleheaded6195 "Firstborn son of a ruler" We actually have no proof that Godwyn is her firstborn, for all we know the Omen twins could be older. Honestly, I think that Messmer is probably her firstborn. "influences the storm" Godwyn has control over lightning, not the storm, you might think I'm being pedantic, but storm and lightning are two very different things in Elden Ring. Lightning is linked to the Ancient Dragons and Placidusax, whereas the storm is associated with the Stormhawks and their Stormhawk King
@@soulemperor7620 You’re right, it’s not definitive but Godwyn isn’t Omen as far as we know and it seems unlikely that she would continue to have children with someone who provides offspring like that knowing how she feels about them. I’ve seen that theory around a bit and it’s a cool idea but not likely judging from Godricks Great Rune that confirms Godfrey and his lineage were the first demigods. There’s many variations of Storms in the lore but the “True Storm” is present with lightning and it’s reinforced by the Old Lord Talisman and Placidusax’s arena. You also have the last remnants of the Stormclans manifesting tempest winds with Godwyns trademark Golden Lightning present, such as Commander Niall for example and Nephelis AOW on her Stormhawk Axes. If you look at Stormveil for instance, it’s Wind Erosion that’s causing a lot of the damage on it and it’s backed up by many things, biggest one being the winds always traveling east making direct contact with the Western Wall of Stormveil, where most of the mottling and thorns can be found(Also seen in the Margit boss cutscene). Nepheli when she talks about Godrick states “he’s tainted the very winds” because of his grafting and this is why all the exiles wear hoods that cover their faces with even the 1.0 claiming it prevents the “curse”(corrupted winds) from “slipping inside”. Another piece of evidence is the environment in the Chapel of Anticipation where you see the same thorns manifesting and the trees bending east. I assume this is the reason the Chapel is standing on a tall cliff with it deteriorating from the winds that originate in that direction. The Marred Leather Shield of course alludes to Godwyn being the source of the curse and it would make sense because he is know to spread corruption, was a lightning wielder and the heir of Lightning after Placidusax which is why he’s influencing the storm in Stormveil in his half-dead state. This is also why you find so many Godwyn items/monuments near Stormcaller Church Imo.
It’s interesting that you can find one of Miquella’s crosses inside the Shadow Keep, implying that for whatever reason, Miquella entered the keep and may or may not have interacted with Messmer. Kinda weird how Messmer was just chilling next door as one of his demigod siblings is ascending to godhood with someone he was buddies with in the past becoming his consort.
I like how he starts off doing some big villain speech to the intruder, only to stop and go "O-Oh. You're... a Tarnished?" Like he's been completely thrown off.
He's no doubt my favourite character in elden ring now. Such a tragic figure, used by marika in a crusade and then cast aside and hidden because of a curse he was born with. All Messmer wanted was love and acceptance from his mother which she never gave him. Fighting him is very fun as well (even though he killed me about 15 times at this point)
It's pretty interesting to compare and contrast Messmer and Miquella when it comes to the loyalty and trust of their followers because while Miquella can earn genuine loyalty from people like Leda and Malenia, he's prone to using his powers of compulsion to maintain his followers' loyalty. On the other hand, Messmer seems to inspire genuine loyalty from his followers without resorting to power or coercion despite seeming like a grim, sullen demigod who knows nothing but war and slaughter. - Rellana renounced her royal title to swear fealty to him along with some Carian knights and sorcerers, becoming known as his loyal “Sword”. - Commander Gaius is one of his close friends who leads his ground forces. Despite being an albinauric who would normally be shunned by the Golden Order, he remains loyal to Messmer and holds a high ranking and respected position. - His Lordsworn soldiers and knights are devoted to him (With spirit of one going as far as being outraged that Marika has never embraced him). They've proven to be difficult enemies with many tricks up their sleeve, implying a level of training and discipline higher than even some knights in the Lands Between. - The Fire Knights, his personal guard, came from Leyndell’s upper echelons and noble families. It's stated they didn't mind being ostracized and disowned by their noble families back in Leyndell if it meant being at their lord's side, and tried to put Messmer's flame into themselves, to show their unwavering support. On top of all that, they did all of this knowing they’ll be shunned by society and erased from record with their deeds unsung and forced to wage an unending war without mercy or honor. They also have no real reason to stay in the Land of Shadow anymore. While indeed, they're trapped with having no way of knowing how to get out and despite being war weary in what amounts to uncounted ages of genocidal slaughter, Messmer's army remains rather organized in the Land of Shadow despite major events happening outside their reach. The Golden Order has collapsed, Queen Marika is imprisoned in the Erdtree and the Lands Between was ravaged in the Shattering, all before the Tarnished comes to kill any and all remaining demigods left. Messmer and his army could’ve deserted the Golden Order, splinter up and resort to banditry. Yet, even after all this time, they remained at their posts, unaware of the developments in the Lands Between, with little to no hint of any rebellion or mutiny aside from a few black knights such as father and son duo Andreas and Huw, respectively, who rebelled Messmer after discovering his “serpentine nature” and was imprisoned for it. Even after Messmer quashed their rebellion, he gave them an honorable burial and mourned for their loss. Not saying that their deeds should necessarily be seen as justified and honorable but it's certainly an interesting look into Messmer's character.
Messmer being the oldest Demigod makes sense. I’ve been thinking Marika just shipped him off to the shadowlands after he was born, but this makes more sense
the confirmation of Melina being Messmer's sister also ties into the gloam eyed queen. Both siblings would have been born with defects, and Melina's vision of fire may have been the flame of destined death, which was gloamish purple (not blue like current ghost flame) until the rune of death (red) was removed. Melina, perhaps for similar reasons to why Messmer resented Marika, rebelled against her parents and was perhaps put down by Messmer alongside malikith.
Don't get me wrong, I think melina is GEQ, and definitely mesmers sister. I'm not against your theory or anything, it actually kinda matches mine and my thoughs how mesmer is probably a secret empyrian, and mesmer and melina are similar to miquella and melania, just not twins.
1. Ghostflame is not the flame of the GEQ the Blackfire from the godskin is the fire of the GEQ. 2.The GEQ Was an empyrian and was defeated by marikas shadow maliketh and i dont think marika let maliketh kill her daughter
@@Ryuzaki280 Marika exiled and erased Messmer from history and threw Morgott and Mohg into the shunning grounds. She's not exactly the shining example of motherhood. Miquella got that manipulative streak from somewhere. I, personally, wouldn't put it past her to order her son and shadow to kill her daughter, especially one that threatens her rule.
@@Alcor-wf8gc The theory i had is perhaps the GEQ was melinas 'other self' and only was half killed. My evidence is melina refers to her body being burned. Perhaps her other self was burned by maliketh. And is released apon restoring Destined death. She only reveals herself if you burn the erdtree with madness. As otherwise. Theres no reason for her to stick around.
You know i would hate the be an enemy of Messmer, impaled, can't die, just hanging around wishing i could move on to my next life, heck with the rune of death removed I'm sure every victim of Messmer was and probably still is in massive pain that will never end...ever, I'm surprised the Frienzed flame hasn't taken the entire land of shadow, only one small section of it
When you think about it, it makes a twisted amount of sense as to there seems to be so many spirits of people and creatures in the Land of Shadow and why Marika removed the Rune of Death from the Elden Ring; Aside from preventing more of those she cares about from dying and removing a threat to her power, it could also be to prevent anyone in the Land of Shadow from dying and thus, Messmer's crusade never ends. Marika hated the Hornsent so much that she didn't simply want them to die, she wanted them to suffer for all eternity, turning the Land of Shadow, their own homeland, into hell where the crusaders can brutalize, scorch and impale its denizens even when they've long passed into nothing but spirits, all the while Messmer's Shadow Keep looms over the land like Barad-dûr from Lord of the Rings and the Scadutree stands tall and mighty as the Erdtree's shadow, a constant reminder that the Hornsent are condemned to an eternity of brutality under Messmer's rule without even the benefit of an afterlife. Since every hell needs a devil, Marika chose her son Messmer to fulfill that role. On a related note, the design of the furnace golems seems to be a sort of twisted karmic retribution towards the Hornsent approved by Messmer and Marika. The shamans were mutilated, then stuffed into jars to become saints by the Hornsent so in response, Marika orders her son Messmer to wage a brutal, genocidal war against the Land of Shadow with his most prominent war machine being the massive furnace golems where Hornsent themselves are stuffed inside to serve as fuel for the machine as it marches over the land as an instrument of terror, destruction and mockery with its horned mask of the fell god of fire the Hornsent so feared.
See I didn't think Messmer was the son of Radigon, I was under the impression that she laid down with the Serpent from Mt. Gelmir. Like the Bible, her original sin was to be tempted by the snake. She performed the profane birthing ritual we discover in the curch of Eiglay. That's why Messmer's true form is the base Serpent. That's why Merika banished him and that's why snakes are considered blasphemous.
"Base" also Means "Illegitimate" So having Messmer was NOT with a god or partner she was already paired with. She had Messmer behind another Gods back perhaps. I'm assuming that God found out. Its my personal timeline theory: Marika becomes a Goddess after besting a rival (potentially Gloam Eyed Queen) Marika becomes paired with the Horned God of the Sun (Look at the Furnace Icon, "Horned Fell God of Fire" was probably at one point a Horned Lion God of the Sun) Marika is tempted by a Serpent (potentially male aspect of Gloam Eyed Queen) Marika has Messmer out of "wedlock" Sun God finds out and is _pissed_ Horned Sun God tells the Hornsent of the "Jar Ritual" in order to make "Jar Saints" by having them butcher Shamans (Marika's people) Marika finds out and tells her bastard child, Messmer, to Crusade against the Hornsent. Horned Sun God so mad he legitimately _leaves_ which is why the Lands Between HAS NO SUN (and has no "sun" object in the messages) Marika establishes the first roots of Erdtree Order after the cleansing purge and has her personal symbol (the Tree) become the source of light. Sunflowers, once holy flowers of the Sun God, now face the Erdtree. Marika further punishes the devotees of the Sun God by _casting them all beneath the SHADOW OF THE ERDTREE_ in the form of the Banishment and the Scadutree.
@@VultureXVthis makes sense except for its stated in messmers kindling item description that Messmer has a younger sister who is theorized to be Melina, so that would mean either they meant a half sister or Melina was also born with another father.
I don’t think this is right. Messmer has Radagons signature red hair. The serpent of Mt. Gelmir wanted to destroy the golden order and therefore Marika. There’s no way. I think you relating Elden Ring lore to the bible is interesting but it’s pretty weak evidence.
@Aureilius2112 Red is usually a color you see on venomous snakes and in elden ring it's also associated with the primordial age of dragons before the time of the golden order. Radigon was said to have hated his red hair. Since Radigon is Merika's other self, that means the red was part of Merika. It's probably a constant reminder of Merika's original sin. The Serpent hates the golden order because Merika seduced it to gain power and then turned around and created a religion around hating it. The Serpent gave her the power to utterly destroy the people that killed her people, and then she turns around and sends an inquisition to destroy it. Melina, who is thought to be the gloam eyed queen, is also associated with snakes, the God Skins are all very snake like, and we fight the fat one right under the shed skin of the Mt. Gelmir Serpent. And last little thing, did you notice, Merika wears a coiled snake as a bracelet?
Marika shouldve sent Rykard. He had no problem with mounds of corpses, was a Praetor and judging from the wepon he gives to Inquisitor Ghiza, he’s got no issue with toruture.
At the time Rykard was not committing blasphemy. Mesmer was blasphemous from his very birth and Marika wanted to hide the land of Shadow and it's history permanently. Mesmer being born there was her last time to the land and something she wouldn't necessarily want people knowing.
Great video as always but I think you forgot to mention He’s guarding the secret of the Shaman village and the origins of his mother and the horrors they seen before her ascension. To me he’s the most tragic character in the game; more than Morgott
Messmer lore is as sad and tragic as Godwyn and Radahn. These three characters were good loyal sons to Marika and the Golden Order. All of them have their own heroic legendary tales that helped establish the Golden Order and made a name for themselves yet each one of them met an awful ending. Godwyn was assassinated in Ranni plot turning him into a hideous monster ever-evolving, Radhan fell into Miquella plot becoming a shallow puppet for Miquella to be a god and Messmer obeying his mother order crusading and genociding not knowing he was abandoned and erased from the history books. he looks tired just sitting there, he drag his feet to fight you. he's sad lonely and doubtful. like he's questioning if his mother will ever answer him back waiting on her signal for eternity.
Is it possible that when Godfrey was stripped from grace and marched for the badlands, he travelled through the realm of shadow and messmer killed him and that is why we see him impaled and crucified in the opening dialogue of the game
There are a lot of questions that were answered in the DLC but i still have one unanswered question.....Turtle Pope, why is he the only one that can talk, why is he the only one we see, no pictures, no one talking about him, nothing (that i could find so far in the dlc) at all on him, Miriel the Unknown
Turtles were probably a part of the Raya Lucaria's culture and religion, we see them being referred to as wise beasts when solving one of the tower/rise riddles. Maybe there were others that used to live in the towers since Chelona and Testu’s Rise are taxonomic names of turtle species. Maybe Miriel was just the oldest one alive to represent the church Radagon and Rennala got wedded in.
@@procra5tinator Or, the more likely explanation, the talking turtle is there because the two people responsible for the story and lore, GRRM and Miyazaki, like turtles.
Amazingly, you're the first person I've seen make the possible connection between the text in the scroll and the relationship between Marika and Radagon. I've been following that thread as well, but I feel there's a lot more potential depth to it to dig into.
I think a lot of people miss something. "Base" Serpent has a lot of potential meanings. Base can mean reviled or a lack of decency, but it also means _"ILLEGITIMATE"_ In this sense, I feel this is very, VERY critical to understanding Messmer as a whole. *He's a bastard,* literally in definition. Created out of wedlock (whatever that may mean for a God such as Marika) and unclaimed. This is why the Abductor Virgins show the iconography of Marika holding a bundled infant while being surrounded by snakes. Messmer, to me, was always more of a craftsman Demigod; having hand in making those gigantic Furnace Golems (most likely the Iron Golems we see in base game too) as well as the Smithscript weapons and other Black Iron armaments for his army. It would make sense that because we see the Abductor Virgins at the Fort of Reprimand _Messmer made those too._ However, the design portrays his critical wish: _He wants to be embraced by his mother._ This also potentially has some very striking concepts that Marika also, in one way or another, had a serpent within her in some manner too (considering the golem catches people with snakes). Possibly placing the serpent that was once within her into Messmer. Marika had a child with _something_ out of her bond with another greater being. Possibly infidelity on a godly level. This something also possibly sired Melina too. This _something_ appears to be tied to Fire and Snakes. Considering when this happened, this may also deal with the Original Sin.
I thought Rykard gave some Abductor Virgins to Messmer as support for his crusade before he left to the Land of Shadow but your idea’s interesting nonetheless.
The idea of Messmer being a craftsman is really interesting, especially when considered alongside his association with fire. It makes me think of Hephaestus from Greek mythology, who was similarly, in some versions of the myth, cast out by his mother Hera (also a god-queen) for his deformaties. Even more interesting is that in some accounts, these deformities were the result of Hera conceiving and giving birth to Hephaestus by herself, possibly a parallel to Messmer being the child of Marika and Radagon, a single god, which is given as the reason for Miquella and Malenia’s afflictions and so would logically be the reason for Messmer’s as well.
It was never a question for me who the father was, only a question of when Messmer was born. The fact Radahn was looked as being younger, despite seeing some proof in the Mountaintop of the Giants, was a bit of a surprise. Nevertheless, I always figured that Radagon was his father, no matter when in the timeline he was born. Also in the camp of Melina being his sister as well. The trailers made Messmer out to be a tyrant, yet between the lore we read and the cinematics in his boss fight, he seemed more like a man crushed by burden. So now I can see how he would be considered a legend and a heroic figure in the game, and like the other demigods, Miyazaki did too good of a job in tearing him down.
So all of Marika's children bar one, was born cursed; Mesmer, Melina, Margot, Mogh, Melania and Miquella. I guess she hated the letter "M" and only used it for her cursed children. Godwyn was the only one it seems that wasn't cursed. If she wasn't involved in his death, losing her only uncursed child was probably a tough blow and would further explain why it sent her mad.
He was, it’s highly implied he was cursed with deathblight, which is how he defeated the ancient dragons. It was only after his soul died by the rune of death did death root start to spread.
I love this theory but the burning question is- what IS the Base serpent? If it’s the immortal serpent, how did this happen? Did Marika perform a ritual? I think it’s beyond interesting that Numen have a “moldable” flesh. If Marika created the Erdtree and became the de facto Goddess of the Lands Between, I wonder if her children being afflicted is just the Numen side being imbued by all the Gods/Powerful entities that are also influencing the Lands Between. The best way to defeat something is to utterly control it. How do you truly control something without first taking it into yourself? Or if the Erdtree is truly what is giving power….then the roots itself could be what is causing the corruption in her bloodline.
Im gonna assume melina and mesmers dad is radagon, it fits too well. Mesmer, cursed by serpents. Melina, burnt and bodiless. Melania, rot. Miquella, forever child. Also, assuming melina is the GEQ, which is likely imo that makes 3 of the 4 empyrians. I'm betting mesmer is a secret empyrian.
A. Spooky scary fire that is bad for the Erdtree B. Malformed snake infested son is bad for your reputation if the general public hate snakes (gladiator armor set talks about this)
I wonder if Messmer and Melina inherited their vision of fire from Radagon with his giant heritage? But if that’s the case, why didn’t Miquella and Melenia? The Fell God must be playing a bigger role in sote than we’re seeing (or at least I’ve found) (spelling)
It seems like Messmer’s flame is related to the Fell God, the furnace golems are his toys and what else would they be powered by but his own flame? At the same time they’re decorated in fire giant heads (and a dragon??) and the furnace visage is depicting the Fell God (with horns???). Messmer and Radagon “despise” their flame and red hair, respectively. Messmer’s orb looks an awful lot like the flame of the fell god orbs. We also see the Base Serpent with the orb in its mouth that then uses it to attack, which calls back to the devourers scepter wielded by Bernahl, which describes “A vision of the future briefly seen by Rykard in his final moments before being devoured by the great serpent.” Maybe this is some kind of bigger cycle in Elden Ring? The visions of flame and then the vision of the serpent consuming the world?
@@square-table-gaming and that’s another big one I’ve wondered about, what is the source of Miquella’s affliction? I got shot down hard on Reddit one day for this one so don’t take it in a weird way lmao, but I was kind of starting to think it was some kind of fertility goddess, and that’s why he has these powers of abundance and was in touch with his femininity. To me that could be one of two “outer gods”, either GEQ, who idk if we can say is an outer god but clearly at least influenced Melina in some way, or maybe the Formless Mother? It’s kind of out of left field I know but a video about how Lugh from Celtic myth might be a reference point for Mohg and the FM kind of convinced me (I forget the channel but it isn’t hard to find), and things like blood-tinged excrement description tell me that all the blood and stuff is just a catalyst for creating life, kind of a twisted way to look at fertility but it’s like fertilizer for plants lmao. The DLC kind of makes me drop that theory, and maybe Miquella is just like Marika, and St. Trina is his equivalent to Radagon, but I haven’t fully discredited it yet.
Don't forget that the mesmer and melina, the 2 related to fire, are both missing an eye, give them 1 eye. .might be coincidence, but it's definitely worth noting with all the other info we have.
@@tuckddd9I dont know which outer god, but someone else mentioned the twins relate to life and death cycle. Melania with the end of life, forever rotting. Miquella with the beging of life, forever young. Not sure if it really means jack shit, but thought it was a neat angle.
Messmer’s origins throw a wrench into the events leading to Marika’s ascension to godhood. it makes more sense of Hoarah Loux was the lord that conquered Balurat and Enir-Ilim in Marika’s name as it is mentioned he “faced the storm lord alone” and “took Serosh as his aged counsellor” both implying that maybe Serosh was a divine beast, possibly the one the Dancing Lion costume was modelled after, that Hoarah Loux defeated “when he *vowed* to become a lord” so Marika could reach the divine gateway. But that damned red hair.. maybe in his crusade along side Godfrey against the fire giants he was cursed with their red hair and their fire, as the Giant’s Red Braid tells us “perhaps that was a curse of their kind” side note, what if those who seek the Flame of the Fell God end up becoming cursed to tend to it? the environment shows Messmer sought the flame & had a fire burning within him and Marika too chased after it, unable to extinguish it & then along comes Radagon with matching red hair - "[....] still they were defeated. Yet their failure released them from their solitary curse: to serve as keepers of the Flame for eternity."
messmers kindling descibes his younger sister who also embodied a form of flame. Assuming melina is the gloam eyed queen, which is still basically confirmed by the frenzied flame ending, it would make her not only a daughter of marika but also the wielder of the black flame. This would make it highly likely for melina to be the person meant in the describtion.
I reckon what happened was Marika fell in love with her twin brother radagon. (If you know how biology works then a parent who is a twin is more likely to have twins. And it doubles with 2twin parents. Which explains marika having so many twins) And secretly chose to have him as her consort against his will or say. So she could ascend to god hood. Binding them. (Not in the same body though. That happens as a punishment when she shatters the Elden ring) But she was pregnant at the same time so there children were born demigods. But cursed Demi gods. Mesmer born with the abyss snake outer god inside him. Andhe killed his sister in the womb but marika preserved her somehow. And well radagon being pissed off at marika for binding them without his say so he left her and chose to not be Elden lord. But they were still bonded in a way. But this still left her with a true consort so she chose Godfrey.
A crack theory I randomly though of is that "Radagon" is not originally Radagon. He was Marika's lover before fully ascending to godhood and the original father of Messmer, who I am going to assume is the eldest, which explains why the statue of Marika holding Messmer is her smiling, as she hasn't become as cold as she was yet. Due to the Numen's/Shaman's ability of what seems to be grafting or something similar to it, Marika combines herself with Radagon's body, and ends up sort of like godwyn, just as part of Marika. But due to the greater will's influence on Marika, this also influenced the soulless Radagon, making him a completely new person that was loyal to the golden order, hence the disagreement with him and Marika during the shattering. I still haven't read all of the item descriptions yet though so I probably got some stuff dead wrong.
If we take into account that Melina really is his sister then both 1st and 2nd child is basically taking care of Shadowland and Land Between respectively. They really both got the short end of the stick In frenzied ending, Melina released her outer god while Messmer when he destroys Marika's seal. They only released it when shit hits the fan too.
What an amazing short and very very informative video about Messmer, THOSE STRIPPED OF THE GRACE OF GOLD SHALL ALL MEET DEATH IN THE EMBRACE OF MESSSSSSSSSSMER'S FLAME
Messmer fighting along side Godfrey must have been a humbling moment for him. He's impaling all of those giants and he just see's his Father in law duking it out solo with the other ones.
Messmer is lowkey the goat. Imagine unintentionally striking fear in your mom, so much so she was like “yeahhhhhh he might be a menace to anything that breathes in Elden Ring society…I’m gonna send him away and let him cook…literally” In my opinion the edgiest and coolest character in the game but also maybe the most tragic. Long live the shadow King.
8:00 other cursed children? All of her children are cursed. ranni, Radahn and Rykard aren’t because they are not the children that she birthed. Anyone that she delivered was born afflicted With one notable known exception. All the afflicted are Mohg, Morgott, Melana, Malenia, Messmer and Miquella. Also they all have names that start with the letter M. Godwyn didn’t which is a key point because I genuinely believe she viewed him as special because he was the only one who was born without a curse (but definitely has one now).. he’s also the only one whose name doesn’t start with an M….
I really loved the delivery of his line in the trailer! I don't know if it's a different actor or different take but I wished they kept his original tone from the trailer, it sounded more terrifying and confident than the final game
Except unlike Hela, he had not yet rid his mother's love for what seems like several millenia. Also, unlike Hela, who really didn't care about any artifacts of war, Messmer and his soldiers kept ancient artifacts and history about the Hornscent in the Shadowkeep. Along with that, they also have those Jars that are kept in a sort of sickbay or study room, possibly to examine who or what they were.
sorry to keep asking for more topics lol but also a video about marlka and her life before and after she left the land of shadow, your by far my favorite lore channel and i love listening to your videos while i play or even at work if im not busy, have a great rest of your day brother, blessings to you and your family
I have a different theory about Radagon. I think Miquella and St. Trina are deliberately set up as a parallel to Marika and Radagon, and what we see there is that St.Trina was a part of Miquella, who he cast aside along with all the other parts of himself (calling her “my love”, which I think is interesting considering Marika and Radagon’s relationship) before ascending to godhood. I think the implication is that Radagon was always a part of Marika, who developed into his own identity when she was still an Empyrean. My theory is that Radagon was indeed the Lord that ushered Marika into godhood, but to do so, as the Secret Rite Scroll says, he needed his own body, his own vessel. Thus, I think someone else’s body was used as a vessel for Radagon’s soul, and I think that body may have belonged to a giant or giant descendant. Thus, Radagon has red hair, a remnant of his body’s original occupant, just as Radahn’s resurrected form has Omen horns due to being in Mohg’s body, and this is why Radagon hates his red hair so much. Now in two bodies, Marika and Radagon were able to have children together, and so had Messmer and Melina, both born cursed just like Miquella and Malenia. Both were born with kindling and a vision of fire, perhaps due to their father’s body being that of a fire giant/fire giant relative, and thus both had the power to burn the Erdtree. (I find myself wondering if Radahn might have been born with some fire in him too, since Great Runes take on the attributes of their holders and Radahn’s started to burn to resist the Scarlet Rot.) As if that wasn’t bad enough, Messmer was also born with the Abyssal Serpent inside him (if Messmer and Melina are indeed the children of Marika and Radagon, the single god, their births would have been just as auspicious as Miquella and Malenia’s, so the Serpent might have been drawn to Messmer the way the Rot God was drawn to Malenia), and Melina may have been chosen as an Empyrean (again, like Miquella and Malenia) and eventually come to the conclusion that Death needed to be restored to the world, becoming the Gloam-Eyed Queen. I found myself wondering why Marika would have needed Godfrey, if she already had Radagon, a champion in his own right. It may just be that Godfrey was stronger, but I wonder if Marika’s first children with Radagon being so cursed and potentially dangerous to her order might have had something to do with it- Godfrey might have seemed like a safer option. As for why she eventually sent Godfrey away and (re?)married Radagon, while, again, it might be that she simply no longer needed him and this might have always been the plan, we know that Radagon “aspired to be complete”, so I wonder if Marika might have also felt incomplete without her other half, as well as wanting Godfrey and the other Tarnished to grow stronger and eventually return.
I always thought the term “consort” was interesting. Not spouse. Not king or queen. Just consort. I tend to agree that Marika was married off to someone long ago whether or not it was of her choosing. Perhaps her first marriage candidate is still in the land of shadow, impaled and burning somewhere. Or that the Shaman women weren’t supposed to marry. Then she is forced to work with both Goldwyn and Radagon. That is why there aren’t true marriages only consorts and all of her children are cursed perhaps except Godwyn- because they are bastards. Tho maybe he just had a curse the world doesn’t know about.
Messmer might have not been the only or last one of the demigod-children to have had it rough to say the least, but Marika really screwed him over like he seemed scapegoated is the worst ways possible.
Have you or anyone ever done lore about the smaller enemies practicing gravity magic at the Crater-Pocked Glade north of Oridys’s Rise? They have odd clothes and mask that no one else wears, unless I’m mistaken it is not droppable either. They are obviously followers of one of those big space guys but thought the glade itself may be also a lore point possibly. They use an almost Radahn style buff sticking their sickle in the ground and collecting rocks. Who are they, what are they doing, how and why are they there?
So him impaling the fire giants makes sense, but the fire giants had thorns wrapped around them was that from the scadutree avatar, or was that from the fire monks who use blood thorn magic?
Eventually yes! Our format focuses on one topic per video and we do deep dives on characters and stories so my list is pretty long. When we were first getting started I used to do polls to see what topics people wanted to learn more about first. I think I may do that again!
Wait! So Radagon was the snake Marika killed in the story dlc trailer! (There's a video from timdiggity speculating she's taking those golden strands from a snake head, and Radagon is an anagram for "a dragon). She killed Radagon, took her soul and became the vessel for him, her Lord! "A lord will usher in a God's return, and the Lord's soul will require a vessel"!!!!
I don't know if this anagram theory is something to rely on as it seems a bit too simple and kind of childish, I think it's intentionally there to throw you off as is the Souls way. Marika and Radagon are based on Rebis, the divine hermaphrodite. Radagon being the red king (Spirit) and Marika the white queen (Material/Physical).The dragon is actually a third entity required to combine the two so I don't think he was a dragon given he represents the Red king. The trailer may depict them fusing together though in an interpretation, and I do think the thing she gets the threads from is perhaps some sort of Dragon. One of the stages of Rebis unifying is putrefaction and purification. I find it interesting that's St Trina's knights title is named as such and Miquella being 'pure' with unalloyed gold - he's trying to repeat what happened with Marika. I don't think it's as cut and dry and a direct copy of the Rebis but it does seem to all match up if you look into alchemy.
Loved this. I feel like you summarized the story of Messmer beautifully. Would it be too much to ask if y’all could put out a video on the Lion dancers and the dancer-to-be Lion warriors? I just love the culture they got going on and I think you guys would do great job at presenting it. Pretty please??? As always, please don’t eat me and I’ll stick around to watch the next video no matter what it is ❤ I hope y’all have a good rest of your weekend 😊
The fact that Messmer dies cursing his mother's name speaks volumes to me. It really makes me view him as more of a tragic villain, that he's this shameful part of Marika's past that she abandoned and wanted sequestered away.
Messmer apologizes to Marika and then plucks out his eye, which is shown to be a false eye glimmering with grace: an Iris of Grace. These are given to Queelign and Jolan to make them into spirit ashes. Messmer was Marika's puppet. We push him to overcome it through battle, and he shatters the Iris of Grace just as we do when we use it. And similar to how we become empowered by our Great Rune activation, so too is Messmer's flame empowered and his true form is revealed. He goes from serving her and apologizing to her before plucking out his eye, to then cursing her with his dying breath after shattering his eye. I theorize that it is because he's disillusioned after shattering the Iris of Grace, which were akin to Miquella's bewitching enchantments for Marika. She gave him this to quell his fears, I'm just not sure what fears thoe were and how those fears being suppressed aids her. He goes on a crusade of slaughter, so it makes me think of Omenkillers dulling their senses to fulfill their duties. Rykard also seems to fit in somehow. I'm unsure how he and Messmer are related beyond just "snake and fire," though. We might be able to make certain inferences involving untold parts of Messmer's character by looking at Rykard in the same way we can do so with Marika and Miquella...
It took me 2 tries on him and by phase 2 i felt like a complete villain i was like wait what hes in pain his eye the snakes while also fighting him he died so fast i was left there alone like what did i just do
I was kind of hoping Mesmer would be brother to Mogh and Morgott because it would make it 3 sets of 3 children. First generation (Marika/Godfrey): Mogh, Morgott, Mesmer Second generation (radagon/renala): Radahn, Rykard, Ranni Third Generation (Marika/Radagon): malenia, miquela, melina
I love it and find it still sad how it the end Messmer finally see and accepcts who Marika really is and instead of just calling her Mother like he usually does he calls her by name and curses her.
Messmer knows who Miquella is so he was probably sent to the land of shadows sometime after Merika married Radagon but before the shattering. We don't really find those that live in death in the land of shadow so it most likely also happened and was sealed away before Godwyn died as well.
Messmer has one of the cooler introductory cutscenes. I always prefer the cutscenes where we actually get to see our character interacting with others.
STG's videos keep getting better and better. I would I be able to relax and fall asleep without you guys? Nothing like some elden lore to listen to before drifting off to the land of sleep 🤘
I find it fascinating that every single child of Marika that starts with M has some kind of curse. Messmer, Mohg, Morgott, Malenia, and Miquella. All cursed. Strange
Personally I think Marika was selected by the fingers to be an empyrean, thus she became a God. Which probably was all fine and well for the hornsent. Then she probably had her first set of kids, which probably was Melina and Messmer. Out of hatred for what the hornsent did to her people she send out Messmer in a plot of revenge. As for Melina, I still think she's the gloam eyed queen. There's ash in Leyndell, which I suspect was because Melina may have burned the Erdtree the first time and that's probably why Maliketh got rid of her. So that gives us 2 children born with curses, one cursed with the base serpent and one cursed with the God slaying black flame, both a big threat to the Erdtree.
Messmer plucked out a Yellow Eye and uses a unique flame spells. Potentially he was inflicted with the Frenzied Flame, the flames are a different colour from faith flames and from frenzied flame, maybe because its the first time it corrupted a Demi-God. Which also explains why Melina and Messmer are linked, also the snake could be feeding on the frenzied flame itself. Messmer's Abyssal Serpent, and the Abyssal Woods?
@@square-table-gaming Alot of similarities for it to just be coincidence: Removal of eyes, Melina was also missing one. Melina and the Lord of Chaos are the only ones who burn the erd tree. Abyssal Serpent and Abyssal Woods. Both Frenzied Flame and Messmer want to cleanse the world with fire.
Until now I always thought Miquella and Malenia were cursed because their parents were the same person. But now I think the fact Marikas rise to god hood was on top a ton of bodies I think hee blood line is just cursed. As far I can remember the only child of marika that didn't have some sort of curse was Godwyn (probably why he was her favorite) and I guess Rannia, Radhan and Rykard weren't cursed either. (Maybe thats why she sent Radagon to have children with Renalla) But Mogh, Margit, Miquella, malenia, Melina, Messmer. All cursed. I'm noticing a pattern
Radagon was always Marika. That’s why Messmer was born cursed by the serpent. Just like Malenia and Miquella were also cursed. It’s because they’re all born of one entity.
Im not sure we I can agree that Messmer ever set foot in the lands between, OR, if he did so, I cannot agree he did so as brazenly as suggested. Messmer’s actual name, is never once uttered or alluded to in the lands between. His remembrance directly states that Marika hid her “child” away within the realm or shadow. It wouldnt make sense for her to do so and then have Messmer come back to kill the fire giants etc. Tl;dr: i dont think there is ample support to suggest messmer ever set foot in the lands between after marika brought him to the realm of shadow
I think his story is a sad one for sure, Of the two only Melina is the one who seeks your help in the lands between only to burn as is her wish. But in the bad ending she opens an eye that was previously closed! Messmer is missing an eye and given a seal for the other by his mother to subdue him from his gifts of his dark fire, a Dark flaming outer god chose him. Same for Mogh and Morgot, Though Mogh has a flame that is based out of blood taken from te Formless mother. Its interesting to see all children of Marika save for her beloved perfect Godwin were all brutally cursed! Malenia with scarlet rot Miquella eternal youth, Mogh and Morgot fell omen and Messmer and Melina the first to see flame, one burnt a world down and one burnt herself down. Man the story in this game and all souls games is the best out there, nothing rivals it.
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I just noticed that Messmer is actually a great foil to Miquella. All the trailers made Messmer look like a diabolical, genoocidal psychopath whose actions were so evil that he was erased from history. But in game he’s actually a pretty chill dude who was well liked and inspired loyalty from the people around him like Rellana and Commander Gaius, Radahn even looked up to him as a big brother. When one of his Black knights betrays him, he doesn’t have him tortured or killed like a typical villian would, he just imprisons him and mourns the loss of a brother at arms. He even has an entire clinic in his castle for treating and trying to cure the shaman jars. That same castle is also built in a way that hides and protects his mother’s village.
It’s clear he only did evil things because Marika ordered him to, and it becomes really tragic that he was essentially abandoned by her and only realized it upon death. If he was actually allowed to be his own person and pursue his own goals and ambitions, I feel like he could have been one of the most revered demi gods, right up there with Radahn and Godwyn. He instead ends up dying alone and abandoned with no legacy to leave behind since he was erased from history. A fate that not even the omen brothers suffered.
Meanwhile Miquella is said to be a beautiful kind hearted savior who in reality is a monster who only inspires loyalty because it’s literally his ability to enchant and manipulate people. He casts aside his humanity in order to become a god and seeks to enslave everyone beneath him under the guise of love. Fantastic Juxtaposition and misdirection on Fromsoft’s part.
Best part is, Marika further demonized the symbol of the Serpent by telling Messmer to keep his wrath directed only to her.
Miquella is Griffith
I have this feeling about him... We now know he was a victim as everyone else of his mother undoubtedly. But I feel he had a more important mission than what we see, and I'm still trying to figure it out so here I go.:
Now we know the characters of TLB and LoS meet each other, they even hang around together sometimes. Renalla and Rellana are the same age, Gaius, Radahn Messmer, etc. So everyone knew Messmer, but nobody said anything about him anymore, so EVERYONE must know the LOS exist, but by painting him with all this blasphemous symbols of snake, fire, etc, she would make sure no one ever talked about it anymore, but why was she trying to hide it so bad? Somehow Marika in her master scheme... nailed almost everything she needed to, after all, she is a goddess. What if the cleansing fire of the lands between was trying to hide something else, to wipe out any record about how she became a goddess to avoid someone else doing so: Miquella. Marika would have known something was wrong with that charming boy, and he would become a real threat to everyone, so she asks Messmer to use his power to erase the LOS, at the same time she gets a bit of revenge for everything she suffered and endured with the hornsent and every other species, but maybe even she (or Messmer) took the caution of safeguarding some record to all that ever existed... the specimen storehouse preserved history and knowledge in stone, which actually can survive fire, had it been a normal library (as Midra's Manse) with paper books everything would have been burned away. Is a symbolic representation of Messmer as the keeper of the knowledge and history of TLB.
Anyway, returning to why maybe this was the plot, Marika knowing Miquella's scheme scope and intentions could have figured out Miquella's original targets: Mogh and Godwyn (therefore the Moghwyn palace and dynasty would make sense), so she hurried up and got Godwyn killed. He was after all "as good as" Radahn: strong, brave, loved by many; he was the golden boy, his dead brought Marika down and started the Shattering, every demi-god parted ways.Now, Godwyn was (as far as we know) really close to Miquella, he even tried the eclipse thing to revive him, but his corpse was way out of use now and he needed someone as good fit consort as he was: Radahn, so he changed targets, but not plans.
Messmer carried a huge importance lore wise and this would make sense (at least in my head).
I know maybe there are loose ends, but I don't have enough time to read every artifact and gather every last piece of information so feel free (or rather help me!) to shape this theory or debunk it.
@@leonardodelgado2111pretty good theory actually. And if you take into acct that marika was playing 4D chess I wouldn’t put it pass her having a contingency plan for when miquella attempted to reach godhood. In addition to that she’s still guiding us in the land of shadow. As bad of mother she was I’ve always seen marika as that being that lives on the by any means necessary motto.
When you really think about it throughout the base game we’re doing miquella dirty work by killing Radahn n mogh so he can use em. Considering that aspect, I think your theory is kinda spot on
" But in game he’s actually a pretty chill dude" - I wouldn't exactly call the orchestrator of a genocide a "pretty chill dude". He is a victim of his mother too who banished him into the Shadowlands under the guise of his mission, but yeah, still essentially a mass murderer.
Marika's enemies:
Fire giants and the Fell god.
Dragons, beasts and the hornsents.
Whatever is associated with the rune of Death.
Messmer and Melina, cursed by the fire giants and fell god, depicted by them being fire kindlings and only having a single eye (symbol of the fell god).
Morgott and Mohg, cursed by the hornsent, to grow horns, tails, wings - The looks that Marika despised since her shaman tribe was slaughtered by them.
Malenia and Miquella, cursed by the absence of death and cycle of life, resembled by one rotting(eternally in the late stage of life) and one in childhood.
since hornsent were her first enemy, marika probably thinks back on what they did whenever she encounters a new group of people and then wipes them out because she perceives them to be a future threat. also the fact that the hornsent seem to think murdering people and stuffing them into jars turns them in saints is wild and is what they did to marikas people.
Mesmer had two eyes but one was Plucked out not to mention the snakes that are literally apart of him there isn’t any mention of the fire giants his fire is different and might come from some differing Source such as how his armor says that his Marika wanted him to become a symbol of fear often which Fire does
@@michaelblevins1651naw, at least one item mentioned the fell god, but there are to many mesmer items for me to quote it at the moment.
But I definitely know the fell god was mentioned in reference to mesmer somewhere. Also, his furnace golems have giants faces on the legs.
Mohg nd Morgott are omen which is a curse from the crucible. I think its possible that “omen” is a derogatory term for hornsent considering the hornsent are from a time in which the crucible reigned.
@@Cman04092Is the Fell God represented by a serpent?
He may have a sad backstory, but that is NOT an excuse to bully me for 10 hours 😭😭🙏
10 hours??? Straight?
Jesus Christ, seriously? It wasn't even 10 attempts for me what the hell were you doing lol.
@@A-1-Sawceman that's so cool and impressive. 😐
@kmsedgy2115 Maybe if you try really hard and practice you can be super cool and impressive, too (:
@@A-1-Sawceliterally took me less than 10 tries too 😂 don’t get why everyone says he’s hard
The suprise in his voice when he say "thou'rt... tarnished!". It conveys his feelings of being betrayed by his mother. Some graceless tarnished is Elden Lord while I, your son, have been abandoned.
But the tarnished is not the Elden Lord at that time?
@@Chopper153 depends when you enter the dlc
I'm guessing it's more about you being able to see the guidance of Grace.
@@Chopper153Miquella calls you “Lord of the old order”
@@robertpayne6781dlc takes place before the end of the game
"Oh mother, this guy STINKS!" - Messmer
M O N G R E L I N T R U D E R
Tarnished: WHAT DID YOU CALL ME!?
Says the guy with snakes up his ass!
Love how he says that
I thought it was Matt Smith for a second!
@@Dinugujon He really does have a Daemon Targaryen aesthetic doesn’t he? Lol even his dragon is almost Serpentine and red!
Messmer is basically the "Nameless King" of Elden Ring.
Nameless King choose his path, Messmer was forced
Uh Godwyn hello? Let me know if this sounds familiar: Firstborn son of a ruler with the previous being ruled by Ancient Dragons and befriends them to start a cult of warriors paying tribute. Also wields Golden Lightning and influences the storm.
I meant in the fact that Marika erased his existence from history like how Gwen did to Nameless.
@@puzzleheaded6195 "Firstborn son of a ruler" We actually have no proof that Godwyn is her firstborn, for all we know the Omen twins could be older. Honestly, I think that Messmer is probably her firstborn.
"influences the storm"
Godwyn has control over lightning, not the storm, you might think I'm being pedantic, but storm and lightning are two very different things in Elden Ring. Lightning is linked to the Ancient Dragons and Placidusax, whereas the storm is associated with the Stormhawks and their Stormhawk King
@@soulemperor7620 You’re right, it’s not definitive but Godwyn isn’t Omen as far as we know and it seems unlikely that she would continue to have children with someone who provides offspring like that knowing how she feels about them. I’ve seen that theory around a bit and it’s a cool idea but not likely judging from Godricks Great Rune that confirms Godfrey and his lineage were the first demigods.
There’s many variations of Storms in the lore but the “True Storm” is present with lightning and it’s reinforced by the Old Lord Talisman and Placidusax’s arena. You also have the last remnants of the Stormclans manifesting tempest winds with Godwyns trademark Golden Lightning present, such as Commander Niall for example and Nephelis AOW on her Stormhawk Axes.
If you look at Stormveil for instance, it’s Wind Erosion that’s causing a lot of the damage on it and it’s backed up by many things, biggest one being the winds always traveling east making direct contact with the Western Wall of Stormveil, where most of the mottling and thorns can be found(Also seen in the Margit boss cutscene).
Nepheli when she talks about Godrick states “he’s tainted the very winds” because of his grafting and this is why all the exiles wear hoods that cover their faces with even the 1.0 claiming it prevents the “curse”(corrupted winds) from “slipping inside”. Another piece of evidence is the environment in the Chapel of Anticipation where you see the same thorns manifesting and the trees bending east. I assume this is the reason the Chapel is standing on a tall cliff with it deteriorating from the winds that originate in that direction.
The Marred Leather Shield of course alludes to Godwyn being the source of the curse and it would make sense because he is know to spread corruption, was a lightning wielder and the heir of Lightning after Placidusax which is why he’s influencing the storm in Stormveil in his half-dead state. This is also why you find so many Godwyn items/monuments near Stormcaller Church Imo.
It’s interesting that you can find one of Miquella’s crosses inside the Shadow Keep, implying that for whatever reason, Miquella entered the keep and may or may not have interacted with Messmer. Kinda weird how Messmer was just chilling next door as one of his demigod siblings is ascending to godhood with someone he was buddies with in the past becoming his consort.
I love how everyone thought Mohg was kidnapping Miquella when in reality Miquella was using him the whole time
I believe there was a cut dialog where messmer says miquella spoke to him ad told him about the tarnished
@@zfoxcrafter It was "Miquella spoke of thee.." after he said "Thou'rt tarnished it semeth"
@mariuss1590
I don't know why they cut that out, it would explain how he knows that you are the elden lord.
I like how he starts off doing some big villain speech to the intruder, only to stop and go "O-Oh. You're... a Tarnished?" Like he's been completely thrown off.
He's no doubt my favourite character in elden ring now. Such a tragic figure, used by marika in a crusade and then cast aside and hidden because of a curse he was born with. All Messmer wanted was love and acceptance from his mother which she never gave him.
Fighting him is very fun as well (even though he killed me about 15 times at this point)
It's pretty interesting to compare and contrast Messmer and Miquella when it comes to the loyalty and trust of their followers because while Miquella can earn genuine loyalty from people like Leda and Malenia, he's prone to using his powers of compulsion to maintain his followers' loyalty. On the other hand, Messmer seems to inspire genuine loyalty from his followers without resorting to power or coercion despite seeming like a grim, sullen demigod who knows nothing but war and slaughter.
- Rellana renounced her royal title to swear fealty to him along with some Carian knights and sorcerers, becoming known as his loyal “Sword”.
- Commander Gaius is one of his close friends who leads his ground forces. Despite being an albinauric who would normally be shunned by the Golden Order, he remains loyal to Messmer and holds a high ranking and respected position.
- His Lordsworn soldiers and knights are devoted to him (With spirit of one going as far as being outraged that Marika has never embraced him). They've proven to be difficult enemies with many tricks up their sleeve, implying a level of training and discipline higher than even some knights in the Lands Between.
- The Fire Knights, his personal guard, came from Leyndell’s upper echelons and noble families. It's stated they didn't mind being ostracized and disowned by their noble families back in Leyndell if it meant being at their lord's side, and tried to put Messmer's flame into themselves, to show their unwavering support.
On top of all that, they did all of this knowing they’ll be shunned by society and erased from record with their deeds unsung and forced to wage an unending war without mercy or honor. They also have no real reason to stay in the Land of Shadow anymore. While indeed, they're trapped with having no way of knowing how to get out and despite being war weary in what amounts to uncounted ages of genocidal slaughter, Messmer's army remains rather organized in the Land of Shadow despite major events happening outside their reach. The Golden Order has collapsed, Queen Marika is imprisoned in the Erdtree and the Lands Between was ravaged in the Shattering, all before the Tarnished comes to kill any and all remaining demigods left. Messmer and his army could’ve deserted the Golden Order, splinter up and resort to banditry. Yet, even after all this time, they remained at their posts, unaware of the developments in the Lands Between, with little to no hint of any rebellion or mutiny aside from a few black knights such as father and son duo Andreas and Huw, respectively, who rebelled Messmer after discovering his “serpentine nature” and was imprisoned for it. Even after Messmer quashed their rebellion, he gave them an honorable burial and mourned for their loss.
Not saying that their deeds should necessarily be seen as justified and honorable but it's certainly an interesting look into Messmer's character.
Messmer’s younger sister is clearly Bayle the Dread
CURSE YOU BAYLEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!
@@jcol1708That Baylussy got me actin up.
This boss raped me on my hands and knees real good
Igon screaming at the background
Messmer being the oldest Demigod makes sense. I’ve been thinking Marika just shipped him off to the shadowlands after he was born, but this makes more sense
I wonder who his father is tho...
We literally see his spears impaling giants on the Mountaintops so he was there that long ago at the very least
He doesn't have one technically
Radagon.
Messmer had to have remained in the Lands Between until Godfrey and his army were sent away otherwise he wouldnt have a clue what a Tarnished was.
the confirmation of Melina being Messmer's sister also ties into the gloam eyed queen. Both siblings would have been born with defects, and Melina's vision of fire may have been the flame of destined death, which was gloamish purple (not blue like current ghost flame) until the rune of death (red) was removed.
Melina, perhaps for similar reasons to why Messmer resented Marika, rebelled against her parents and was perhaps put down by Messmer alongside malikith.
Melina is burnt and bodiless, is that not defective enough? Lol.
Don't get me wrong, I think melina is GEQ, and definitely mesmers sister. I'm not against your theory or anything, it actually kinda matches mine and my thoughs how mesmer is probably a secret empyrian, and mesmer and melina are similar to miquella and melania, just not twins.
1. Ghostflame is not the flame of the GEQ the Blackfire from the godskin is the fire of the GEQ.
2.The GEQ Was an empyrian and was defeated by marikas shadow maliketh and i dont think marika let maliketh kill her daughter
@@Ryuzaki280 Marika exiled and erased Messmer from history and threw Morgott and Mohg into the shunning grounds. She's not exactly the shining example of motherhood. Miquella got that manipulative streak from somewhere. I, personally, wouldn't put it past her to order her son and shadow to kill her daughter, especially one that threatens her rule.
@@Alcor-wf8gc The theory i had is perhaps the GEQ was melinas 'other self' and only was half killed.
My evidence is melina refers to her body being burned.
Perhaps her other self was burned by maliketh. And is released apon restoring Destined death.
She only reveals herself if you burn the erdtree with madness. As otherwise. Theres no reason for her to stick around.
You know i would hate the be an enemy of Messmer, impaled, can't die, just hanging around wishing i could move on to my next life, heck with the rune of death removed I'm sure every victim of Messmer was and probably still is in massive pain that will never end...ever, I'm surprised the Frienzed flame hasn't taken the entire land of shadow, only one small section of it
When you think about it, it makes a twisted amount of sense as to there seems to be so many spirits of people and creatures in the Land of Shadow and why Marika removed the Rune of Death from the Elden Ring; Aside from preventing more of those she cares about from dying and removing a threat to her power, it could also be to prevent anyone in the Land of Shadow from dying and thus, Messmer's crusade never ends. Marika hated the Hornsent so much that she didn't simply want them to die, she wanted them to suffer for all eternity, turning the Land of Shadow, their own homeland, into hell where the crusaders can brutalize, scorch and impale its denizens even when they've long passed into nothing but spirits, all the while Messmer's Shadow Keep looms over the land like Barad-dûr from Lord of the Rings and the Scadutree stands tall and mighty as the Erdtree's shadow, a constant reminder that the Hornsent are condemned to an eternity of brutality under Messmer's rule without even the benefit of an afterlife. Since every hell needs a devil, Marika chose her son Messmer to fulfill that role.
On a related note, the design of the furnace golems seems to be a sort of twisted karmic retribution towards the Hornsent approved by Messmer and Marika. The shamans were mutilated, then stuffed into jars to become saints by the Hornsent so in response, Marika orders her son Messmer to wage a brutal, genocidal war against the Land of Shadow with his most prominent war machine being the massive furnace golems where Hornsent themselves are stuffed inside to serve as fuel for the machine as it marches over the land as an instrument of terror, destruction and mockery with its horned mask of the fell god of fire the Hornsent so feared.
See I didn't think Messmer was the son of Radigon, I was under the impression that she laid down with the Serpent from Mt. Gelmir. Like the Bible, her original sin was to be tempted by the snake. She performed the profane birthing ritual we discover in the curch of Eiglay. That's why Messmer's true form is the base Serpent. That's why Merika banished him and that's why snakes are considered blasphemous.
And also, in Bonny village not too far from where you find the Oh Mother gesture…. There’s a shed snake skin coiled up.. you may be onto something
"Base" also Means "Illegitimate"
So having Messmer was NOT with a god or partner she was already paired with.
She had Messmer behind another Gods back perhaps. I'm assuming that God found out.
Its my personal timeline theory:
Marika becomes a Goddess after besting a rival (potentially Gloam Eyed Queen)
Marika becomes paired with the Horned God of the Sun (Look at the Furnace Icon, "Horned Fell God of Fire" was probably at one point a Horned Lion God of the Sun)
Marika is tempted by a Serpent (potentially male aspect of Gloam Eyed Queen)
Marika has Messmer out of "wedlock"
Sun God finds out and is _pissed_
Horned Sun God tells the Hornsent of the "Jar Ritual" in order to make "Jar Saints" by having them butcher Shamans (Marika's people)
Marika finds out and tells her bastard child, Messmer, to Crusade against the Hornsent.
Horned Sun God so mad he legitimately _leaves_ which is why the Lands Between HAS NO SUN (and has no "sun" object in the messages)
Marika establishes the first roots of Erdtree Order after the cleansing purge and has her personal symbol (the Tree) become the source of light.
Sunflowers, once holy flowers of the Sun God, now face the Erdtree.
Marika further punishes the devotees of the Sun God by _casting them all beneath the SHADOW OF THE ERDTREE_ in the form of the Banishment and the Scadutree.
@@VultureXVthis makes sense except for its stated in messmers kindling item description that Messmer has a younger sister who is theorized to be Melina, so that would mean either they meant a half sister or Melina was also born with another father.
I don’t think this is right. Messmer has Radagons signature red hair. The serpent of Mt. Gelmir wanted to destroy the golden order and therefore Marika. There’s no way. I think you relating Elden Ring lore to the bible is interesting but it’s pretty weak evidence.
@Aureilius2112 Red is usually a color you see on venomous snakes and in elden ring it's also associated with the primordial age of dragons before the time of the golden order. Radigon was said to have hated his red hair. Since Radigon is Merika's other self, that means the red was part of Merika. It's probably a constant reminder of Merika's original sin.
The Serpent hates the golden order because Merika seduced it to gain power and then turned around and created a religion around hating it. The Serpent gave her the power to utterly destroy the people that killed her people, and then she turns around and sends an inquisition to destroy it.
Melina, who is thought to be the gloam eyed queen, is also associated with snakes, the God Skins are all very snake like, and we fight the fat one right under the shed skin of the Mt. Gelmir Serpent.
And last little thing, did you notice, Merika wears a coiled snake as a bracelet?
Messmer just wanted a hug 😢
So did Mogh 😢
Yeah, just look at the Abductor Virgin enemies :c
Marika shouldve sent Rykard. He had no problem with mounds of corpses, was a Praetor and judging from the wepon he gives to Inquisitor Ghiza, he’s got no issue with toruture.
At the time Rykard was not committing blasphemy. Mesmer was blasphemous from his very birth and Marika wanted to hide the land of Shadow and it's history permanently. Mesmer being born there was her last time to the land and something she wouldn't necessarily want people knowing.
@@square-table-gaming im just joking. Renalla would have never allowed it.
They just happen to be Snake Bros is all
Great video as always but I think you forgot to mention He’s guarding the secret of the Shaman village and the origins of his mother and the horrors they seen before her ascension. To me he’s the most tragic character in the game; more than Morgott
This! He loved her so much that he kept her home village safe despite her betrayal. Tragic character but the best boss in the game imo
Messmer was definitely the coolest out of all the bosses in Elden Ring. His design was also spot on.
Did anyone else pick up how surprised he seemed that the player was Tarnished?
Yes I did. He couldn't believe it.
Messmer lore is as sad and tragic as Godwyn and Radahn. These three characters were good loyal sons to Marika and the Golden Order. All of them have their own heroic legendary tales that helped establish the Golden Order and made a name for themselves yet each one of them met an awful ending. Godwyn was assassinated in Ranni plot turning him into a hideous monster ever-evolving, Radhan fell into Miquella plot becoming a shallow puppet for Miquella to be a god and Messmer obeying his mother order crusading and genociding not knowing he was abandoned and erased from the history books.
he looks tired just sitting there, he drag his feet to fight you. he's sad lonely and doubtful. like he's questioning if his mother will ever answer him back waiting on her signal for eternity.
Is it possible that when Godfrey was stripped from grace and marched for the badlands, he travelled through the realm of shadow and messmer killed him and that is why we see him impaled and crucified in the opening dialogue of the game
How could Messmer kill Godfrey when we killed Godfrey?
There are a lot of questions that were answered in the DLC but i still have one unanswered question.....Turtle Pope, why is he the only one that can talk, why is he the only one we see, no pictures, no one talking about him, nothing (that i could find so far in the dlc) at all on him, Miriel the Unknown
I honestly think it boils down to, "Miyazaki likes turtles."
Thays the only question you have? I have like 1000.
I keep saying, fromsoft dlc, expect 100 answers but 1000 new questions.
@@Cman04092 shoot actually yeah he is now the most mysterious character in the game
Turtles were probably a part of the Raya Lucaria's culture and religion, we see them being referred to as wise beasts when solving one of the tower/rise riddles. Maybe there were others that used to live in the towers since Chelona and Testu’s Rise are taxonomic names of turtle species. Maybe Miriel was just the oldest one alive to represent the church Radagon and Rennala got wedded in.
@@procra5tinator Or, the more likely explanation, the talking turtle is there because the two people responsible for the story and lore, GRRM and Miyazaki, like turtles.
Amazingly, you're the first person I've seen make the possible connection between the text in the scroll and the relationship between Marika and Radagon. I've been following that thread as well, but I feel there's a lot more potential depth to it to dig into.
I think a lot of people miss something.
"Base" Serpent has a lot of potential meanings.
Base can mean reviled or a lack of decency, but it also means _"ILLEGITIMATE"_
In this sense, I feel this is very, VERY critical to understanding Messmer as a whole.
*He's a bastard,* literally in definition. Created out of wedlock (whatever that may mean for a God such as Marika) and unclaimed. This is why the Abductor Virgins show the iconography of Marika holding a bundled infant while being surrounded by snakes.
Messmer, to me, was always more of a craftsman Demigod; having hand in making those gigantic Furnace Golems (most likely the Iron Golems we see in base game too) as well as the Smithscript weapons and other Black Iron armaments for his army. It would make sense that because we see the Abductor Virgins at the Fort of Reprimand _Messmer made those too._ However, the design portrays his critical wish: _He wants to be embraced by his mother._ This also potentially has some very striking concepts that Marika also, in one way or another, had a serpent within her in some manner too (considering the golem catches people with snakes). Possibly placing the serpent that was once within her into Messmer.
Marika had a child with _something_ out of her bond with another greater being. Possibly infidelity on a godly level. This something also possibly sired Melina too.
This _something_ appears to be tied to Fire and Snakes.
Considering when this happened, this may also deal with the Original Sin.
I thought Rykard gave some Abductor Virgins to Messmer as support for his crusade before he left to the Land of Shadow but your idea’s interesting nonetheless.
The idea of Messmer being a craftsman is really interesting, especially when considered alongside his association with fire. It makes me think of Hephaestus from Greek mythology, who was similarly, in some versions of the myth, cast out by his mother Hera (also a god-queen) for his deformaties. Even more interesting is that in some accounts, these deformities were the result of Hera conceiving and giving birth to Hephaestus by herself, possibly a parallel to Messmer being the child of Marika and Radagon, a single god, which is given as the reason for Miquella and Malenia’s afflictions and so would logically be the reason for Messmer’s as well.
It was never a question for me who the father was, only a question of when Messmer was born. The fact Radahn was looked as being younger, despite seeing some proof in the Mountaintop of the Giants, was a bit of a surprise. Nevertheless, I always figured that Radagon was his father, no matter when in the timeline he was born. Also in the camp of Melina being his sister as well.
The trailers made Messmer out to be a tyrant, yet between the lore we read and the cinematics in his boss fight, he seemed more like a man crushed by burden. So now I can see how he would be considered a legend and a heroic figure in the game, and like the other demigods, Miyazaki did too good of a job in tearing him down.
Just beat him today. Another in a long line of great, sympathetic, and tragic characters dreamed up by Miyazaki and his team. Bravo!
So all of Marika's children bar one, was born cursed; Mesmer, Melina, Margot, Mogh, Melania and Miquella. I guess she hated the letter "M" and only used it for her cursed children. Godwyn was the only one it seems that wasn't cursed. If she wasn't involved in his death, losing her only uncursed child was probably a tough blow and would further explain why it sent her mad.
Ranni wasnt born cursed.
He was, it’s highly implied he was cursed with deathblight, which is how he defeated the ancient dragons. It was only after his soul died by the rune of death did death root start to spread.
I love this theory but the burning question is- what IS the Base serpent?
If it’s the immortal serpent, how did this happen? Did Marika perform a ritual?
I think it’s beyond interesting that Numen have a “moldable” flesh. If Marika created the Erdtree and became the de facto Goddess of the Lands Between, I wonder if her children being afflicted is just the Numen side being imbued by all the Gods/Powerful entities that are also influencing the Lands Between.
The best way to defeat something is to utterly control it. How do you truly control something without first taking it into yourself?
Or if the Erdtree is truly what is giving power….then the roots itself could be what is causing the corruption in her bloodline.
Just woke up to this. Gonna be a good day.
Today is the day I beat the final boss. I feel it.
the dude is extremely powerful. He has no great runes whatsoever, yet he is this strong
Im gonna assume melina and mesmers dad is radagon, it fits too well.
Mesmer, cursed by serpents. Melina, burnt and bodiless. Melania, rot. Miquella, forever child.
Also, assuming melina is the GEQ, which is likely imo that makes 3 of the 4 empyrians. I'm betting mesmer is a secret empyrian.
I wouldn't say Marika banished Messmer for selfish reasons, the remembrance said she was afraid of Messmer snake
A. Spooky scary fire that is bad for the Erdtree
B. Malformed snake infested son is bad for your reputation if the general public hate snakes (gladiator armor set talks about this)
I wonder if Messmer and Melina inherited their vision of fire from Radagon with his giant heritage? But if that’s the case, why didn’t Miquella and Melenia? The Fell God must be playing a bigger role in sote than we’re seeing (or at least I’ve found)
(spelling)
I would assume it's due to the outer gods they were touched by. Malenia by the goddess of rot and Miquella by an unknown god.
It seems like Messmer’s flame is related to the Fell God, the furnace golems are his toys and what else would they be powered by but his own flame? At the same time they’re decorated in fire giant heads (and a dragon??) and the furnace visage is depicting the Fell God (with horns???). Messmer and Radagon “despise” their flame and red hair, respectively. Messmer’s orb looks an awful lot like the flame of the fell god orbs. We also see the Base Serpent with the orb in its mouth that then uses it to attack, which calls back to the devourers scepter wielded by Bernahl, which describes “A vision of the future briefly seen by Rykard in his final moments
before being devoured by the great serpent.” Maybe this is some kind of bigger cycle in Elden Ring? The visions of flame and then the vision of the serpent consuming the world?
@@square-table-gaming and that’s another big one I’ve wondered about, what is the source of Miquella’s affliction? I got shot down hard on Reddit one day for this one so don’t take it in a weird way lmao, but I was kind of starting to think it was some kind of fertility goddess, and that’s why he has these powers of abundance and was in touch with his femininity. To me that could be one of two “outer gods”, either GEQ, who idk if we can say is an outer god but clearly at least influenced Melina in some way, or maybe the Formless Mother? It’s kind of out of left field I know but a video about how Lugh from Celtic myth might be a reference point for Mohg and the FM kind of convinced me (I forget the channel but it isn’t hard to find), and things like blood-tinged excrement description tell me that all the blood and stuff is just a catalyst for creating life, kind of a twisted way to look at fertility but it’s like fertilizer for plants lmao. The DLC kind of makes me drop that theory, and maybe Miquella is just like Marika, and St. Trina is his equivalent to Radagon, but I haven’t fully discredited it yet.
Don't forget that the mesmer and melina, the 2 related to fire, are both missing an eye, give them 1 eye. .might be coincidence, but it's definitely worth noting with all the other info we have.
@@tuckddd9I dont know which outer god, but someone else mentioned the twins relate to life and death cycle. Melania with the end of life, forever rotting. Miquella with the beging of life, forever young.
Not sure if it really means jack shit, but thought it was a neat angle.
Messmer’s origins throw a wrench into the events leading to Marika’s ascension to godhood. it makes more sense of Hoarah Loux was the lord that conquered Balurat and Enir-Ilim in Marika’s name as it is mentioned he “faced the storm lord alone” and “took Serosh as his aged counsellor” both implying that maybe Serosh was a divine beast, possibly the one the Dancing Lion costume was modelled after, that Hoarah Loux defeated “when he *vowed* to become a lord” so Marika could reach the divine gateway.
But that damned red hair.. maybe in his crusade along side Godfrey against the fire giants he was cursed with their red hair and their fire, as the Giant’s Red Braid tells us “perhaps that was a curse of their kind”
side note, what if those who seek the Flame of the Fell God end up becoming cursed to tend to it? the environment shows Messmer sought the flame & had a fire burning within him and Marika too chased after it, unable to extinguish it & then along comes Radagon with matching red hair - "[....] still they were defeated. Yet their failure released them from their solitary curse:
to serve as keepers of the Flame for eternity."
messmers kindling descibes his younger sister who also embodied a form of flame. Assuming melina is the gloam eyed queen, which is still basically confirmed by the frenzied flame ending, it would make her not only a daughter of marika but also the wielder of the black flame. This would make it highly likely for melina to be the person meant in the describtion.
I reckon what happened was Marika fell in love with her twin brother radagon. (If you know how biology works then a parent who is a twin is more likely to have twins. And it doubles with 2twin parents. Which explains marika having so many twins) And secretly chose to have him as her consort against his will or say. So she could ascend to god hood. Binding them. (Not in the same body though. That happens as a punishment when she shatters the Elden ring) But she was pregnant at the same time so there children were born demigods. But cursed Demi gods. Mesmer born with the abyss snake outer god inside him. Andhe killed his sister in the womb but marika preserved her somehow. And well radagon being pissed off at marika for binding them without his say so he left her and chose to not be Elden lord. But they were still bonded in a way. But this still left her with a true consort so she chose Godfrey.
A crack theory I randomly though of is that "Radagon" is not originally Radagon. He was Marika's lover before fully ascending to godhood and the original father of Messmer, who I am going to assume is the eldest, which explains why the statue of Marika holding Messmer is her smiling, as she hasn't become as cold as she was yet. Due to the Numen's/Shaman's ability of what seems to be grafting or something similar to it, Marika combines herself with Radagon's body, and ends up sort of like godwyn, just as part of Marika. But due to the greater will's influence on Marika, this also influenced the soulless Radagon, making him a completely new person that was loyal to the golden order, hence the disagreement with him and Marika during the shattering. I still haven't read all of the item descriptions yet though so I probably got some stuff dead wrong.
maybe messmer is where rykard got the idea of the serpent
If we take into account that Melina really is his sister then both 1st and 2nd child is basically taking care of Shadowland and Land Between respectively. They really both got the short end of the stick
In frenzied ending, Melina released her outer god while Messmer when he destroys Marika's seal. They only released it when shit hits the fan too.
What an amazing short and very very informative video about Messmer, THOSE STRIPPED OF THE GRACE OF GOLD SHALL ALL MEET DEATH IN THE EMBRACE OF MESSSSSSSSSSMER'S FLAME
Messmer fighting along side Godfrey must have been a humbling moment for him. He's impaling all of those giants and he just see's his Father in law duking it out solo with the other ones.
Messmer is lowkey the goat. Imagine unintentionally striking fear in your mom, so much so she was like “yeahhhhhh he might be a menace to anything that breathes in Elden Ring society…I’m gonna send him away and let him cook…literally”
In my opinion the edgiest and coolest character in the game but also maybe the most tragic. Long live the shadow King.
8:00 other cursed children? All of her children are cursed. ranni, Radahn and Rykard aren’t because they are not the children that she birthed. Anyone that she delivered was born afflicted
With one notable known exception. All the afflicted are Mohg, Morgott, Melana, Malenia, Messmer and Miquella. Also they all have names that start with the letter M. Godwyn didn’t which is a key point because I genuinely believe she viewed him as special because he was the only one who was born without a curse (but definitely has one now).. he’s also the only one whose name doesn’t start with an M….
Been following for awhile now, your team never disappoints!
Thank you!
I wonder if Marika also wiped Melina’s memory to remove any chance that she would mention her brother to the tarnished.
Even if thats not the case, why would she mention Messmer? He is hidden in SOA for thousands of years, before the shattering occured.
The naming convention of the Demi gods are hints at the lineage. That’s a George R R Martin staple
That would be, 'Lord mongrel intruder', to you sunshine.
I really loved the delivery of his line in the trailer! I don't know if it's a different actor or different take but I wished they kept his original tone from the trailer, it sounded more terrifying and confident than the final game
Amazing lore analysis on this character after finally beating him
Messmer has the same backstory as Hela from Thor: Ragnarok.
Yo, I was just thinking this ! Lol
Except unlike Hela, he had not yet rid his mother's love for what seems like several millenia. Also, unlike Hela, who really didn't care about any artifacts of war, Messmer and his soldiers kept ancient artifacts and history about the Hornscent in the Shadowkeep. Along with that, they also have those Jars that are kept in a sort of sickbay or study room, possibly to examine who or what they were.
sorry to keep asking for more topics lol but also a video about marlka and her life before and after she left the land of shadow, your by far my favorite lore channel and i love listening to your videos while i play or even at work if im not busy, have a great rest of your day brother, blessings to you and your family
Hey man the more requests the better! Thanks for being so active in the community
I have a different theory about Radagon.
I think Miquella and St. Trina are deliberately set up as a parallel to Marika and Radagon, and what we see there is that St.Trina was a part of Miquella, who he cast aside along with all the other parts of himself (calling her “my love”, which I think is interesting considering Marika and Radagon’s relationship) before ascending to godhood. I think the implication is that Radagon was always a part of Marika, who developed into his own identity when she was still an Empyrean.
My theory is that Radagon was indeed the Lord that ushered Marika into godhood, but to do so, as the Secret Rite Scroll says, he needed his own body, his own vessel. Thus, I think someone else’s body was used as a vessel for Radagon’s soul, and I think that body may have belonged to a giant or giant descendant. Thus, Radagon has red hair, a remnant of his body’s original occupant, just as Radahn’s resurrected form has Omen horns due to being in Mohg’s body, and this is why Radagon hates his red hair so much.
Now in two bodies, Marika and Radagon were able to have children together, and so had Messmer and Melina, both born cursed just like Miquella and Malenia. Both were born with kindling and a vision of fire, perhaps due to their father’s body being that of a fire giant/fire giant relative, and thus both had the power to burn the Erdtree. (I find myself wondering if Radahn might have been born with some fire in him too, since Great Runes take on the attributes of their holders and Radahn’s started to burn to resist the Scarlet Rot.) As if that wasn’t bad enough, Messmer was also born with the Abyssal Serpent inside him (if Messmer and Melina are indeed the children of Marika and Radagon, the single god, their births would have been just as auspicious as Miquella and Malenia’s, so the Serpent might have been drawn to Messmer the way the Rot God was drawn to Malenia), and Melina may have been chosen as an Empyrean (again, like Miquella and Malenia) and eventually come to the conclusion that Death needed to be restored to the world, becoming the Gloam-Eyed Queen.
I found myself wondering why Marika would have needed Godfrey, if she already had Radagon, a champion in his own right. It may just be that Godfrey was stronger, but I wonder if Marika’s first children with Radagon being so cursed and potentially dangerous to her order might have had something to do with it- Godfrey might have seemed like a safer option. As for why she eventually sent Godfrey away and (re?)married Radagon, while, again, it might be that she simply no longer needed him and this might have always been the plan, we know that Radagon “aspired to be complete”, so I wonder if Marika might have also felt incomplete without her other half, as well as wanting Godfrey and the other Tarnished to grow stronger and eventually return.
I always thought the term “consort” was interesting. Not spouse. Not king or queen. Just consort.
I tend to agree that Marika was married off to someone long ago whether or not it was of her choosing. Perhaps her first marriage candidate is still in the land of shadow, impaled and burning somewhere. Or that the Shaman women weren’t supposed to marry.
Then she is forced to work with both Goldwyn and Radagon. That is why there aren’t true marriages only consorts and all of her children are cursed perhaps except Godwyn- because they are bastards.
Tho maybe he just had a curse the world doesn’t know about.
Messmer might have not been the only or last one of the demigod-children to have had it rough to say the least, but Marika really screwed him over like he seemed scapegoated is the worst ways possible.
Have you or anyone ever done lore about the smaller enemies practicing gravity magic at the Crater-Pocked Glade north of Oridys’s Rise?
They have odd clothes and mask that no one else wears, unless I’m mistaken it is not droppable either. They are obviously followers of one of those big space guys but thought the glade itself may be also a lore point possibly. They use an almost Radahn style buff sticking their sickle in the ground and collecting rocks.
Who are they, what are they doing, how and why are they there?
We talk about then in our video on the Alabaster lords!
So him impaling the fire giants makes sense, but the fire giants had thorns wrapped around them was that from the scadutree avatar, or was that from the fire monks who use blood thorn magic?
Are you gonna explain about the Jar People? And their sick bays?
Eventually yes! Our format focuses on one topic per video and we do deep dives on characters and stories so my list is pretty long. When we were first getting started I used to do polls to see what topics people wanted to learn more about first. I think I may do that again!
Wait! So Radagon was the snake Marika killed in the story dlc trailer! (There's a video from timdiggity speculating she's taking those golden strands from a snake head, and Radagon is an anagram for "a dragon).
She killed Radagon, took her soul and became the vessel for him, her Lord! "A lord will usher in a God's return, and the Lord's soul will require a vessel"!!!!
I don't know if this anagram theory is something to rely on as it seems a bit too simple and kind of childish, I think it's intentionally there to throw you off as is the Souls way. Marika and Radagon are based on Rebis, the divine hermaphrodite. Radagon being the red king (Spirit) and Marika the white queen (Material/Physical).The dragon is actually a third entity required to combine the two so I don't think he was a dragon given he represents the Red king. The trailer may depict them fusing together though in an interpretation, and I do think the thing she gets the threads from is perhaps some sort of Dragon. One of the stages of Rebis unifying is putrefaction and purification. I find it interesting that's St Trina's knights title is named as such and Miquella being 'pure' with unalloyed gold - he's trying to repeat what happened with Marika. I don't think it's as cut and dry and a direct copy of the Rebis but it does seem to all match up if you look into alchemy.
I don't think Radagon was Messmer's father.
I'm pretty certain it was actually Patches.
Also, they really missed an opportunity to make Miquella’s chosen consort Godwyn so we could have fought him instead.
Loved this. I feel like you summarized the story of Messmer beautifully. Would it be too much to ask if y’all could put out a video on the Lion dancers and the dancer-to-be Lion warriors? I just love the culture they got going on and I think you guys would do great job at presenting it. Pretty please???
As always, please don’t eat me and I’ll stick around to watch the next video no matter what it is ❤ I hope y’all have a good rest of your weekend 😊
We plan on diving into a LOT of stories from the land of shadow so stay tuned!
@@square-table-gaming Awesome! There’s so many great stories in the shadow realm, I can’t wait for you to bring them to light. Until then, take care!
The fact that Messmer dies cursing his mother's name speaks volumes to me. It really makes me view him as more of a tragic villain, that he's this shameful part of Marika's past that she abandoned and wanted sequestered away.
Messmer apologizes to Marika and then plucks out his eye, which is shown to be a false eye glimmering with grace: an Iris of Grace. These are given to Queelign and Jolan to make them into spirit ashes. Messmer was Marika's puppet. We push him to overcome it through battle, and he shatters the Iris of Grace just as we do when we use it. And similar to how we become empowered by our Great Rune activation, so too is Messmer's flame empowered and his true form is revealed. He goes from serving her and apologizing to her before plucking out his eye, to then cursing her with his dying breath after shattering his eye. I theorize that it is because he's disillusioned after shattering the Iris of Grace, which were akin to Miquella's bewitching enchantments for Marika. She gave him this to quell his fears, I'm just not sure what fears thoe were and how those fears being suppressed aids her. He goes on a crusade of slaughter, so it makes me think of Omenkillers dulling their senses to fulfill their duties.
Rykard also seems to fit in somehow. I'm unsure how he and Messmer are related beyond just "snake and fire," though. We might be able to make certain inferences involving untold parts of Messmer's character by looking at Rykard in the same way we can do so with Marika and Miquella...
Been waiting on your dlc lore vids.
More to come! We typically do 1 a week but I'm pushing for 2
Him and the nameless king would be great friends.
Yeah explain to me
It took me 2 tries on him and by phase 2 i felt like a complete villain i was like wait what hes in pain his eye the snakes while also fighting him he died so fast i was left there alone like what did i just do
The fact that Godrick has a grate rune and that messemer dont have one pisses me off 😔
It's all in the timing. He was already in the land of shadow before the shattering.
I was kind of hoping Mesmer would be brother to Mogh and Morgott because it would make it 3 sets of 3 children.
First generation (Marika/Godfrey): Mogh, Morgott, Mesmer
Second generation (radagon/renala): Radahn, Rykard, Ranni
Third Generation (Marika/Radagon): malenia, miquela, melina
I love it and find it still sad how it the end Messmer finally see and accepcts who Marika really is and instead of just calling her Mother like he usually does he calls her by name and curses her.
Messmer knows who Miquella is so he was probably sent to the land of shadows sometime after Merika married Radagon but before the shattering. We don't really find those that live in death in the land of shadow so it most likely also happened and was sealed away before Godwyn died as well.
What implies Messmer knows who Miquella is? I don't believe the two are mentioned together at any point in the lore or in-game.
"upon meeting us, messmer has a distaste for our kind, the tarnished"
Shocker.
When i get ahold of this game and finally beat him I WILL RP the rest of the game as Mesmer going after revenge on his Mom.
Messmer has one of the cooler introductory cutscenes. I always prefer the cutscenes where we actually get to see our character interacting with others.
The battle was interesting. He both begs forgiveness from his mother while also cursing her at the end when a "lesser" beats him.
Marika and radagon third child backstory is so tragic. He just went to please his mother
His cloak is... interesting...
It really puts enthesis on his skinny legs.
Or at least they look skinny because of the cloak.
STG's videos keep getting better and better. I would I be able to relax and fall asleep without you guys? Nothing like some elden lore to listen to before drifting off to the land of sleep 🤘
That was really well put together and easy to follow... thanks for your work, thoroughly enjoyed it !
I find it fascinating that every single child of Marika that starts with M has some kind of curse. Messmer, Mohg, Morgott, Malenia, and Miquella. All cursed. Strange
The thorns you get on the floor before him tear him apart lol
I dont think we fight him at his strongest since he’s already missing an eye
Really we don't fight any of these bosses at their strongest.
@@square-table-gaming definitely not, i really wish we could of seen them at their strongest
Personally I think Marika was selected by the fingers to be an empyrean, thus she became a God. Which probably was all fine and well for the hornsent. Then she probably had her first set of kids, which probably was Melina and Messmer. Out of hatred for what the hornsent did to her people she send out Messmer in a plot of revenge.
As for Melina, I still think she's the gloam eyed queen. There's ash in Leyndell, which I suspect was because Melina may have burned the Erdtree the first time and that's probably why Maliketh got rid of her.
So that gives us 2 children born with curses, one cursed with the base serpent and one cursed with the God slaying black flame, both a big threat to the Erdtree.
Messmer plucked out a Yellow Eye and uses a unique flame spells.
Potentially he was inflicted with the Frenzied Flame, the flames are a different colour from faith flames and from frenzied flame, maybe because its the first time it corrupted a Demi-God.
Which also explains why Melina and Messmer are linked, also the snake could be feeding on the frenzied flame itself.
Messmer's Abyssal Serpent, and the Abyssal Woods?
Frenzied Flame is a huge leap since it utilizes a very specific sickly yellow flame. Messmer's flames are wholely unique to him.
@@square-table-gaming Alot of similarities for it to just be coincidence:
Removal of eyes, Melina was also missing one.
Melina and the Lord of Chaos are the only ones who burn the erd tree.
Abyssal Serpent and Abyssal Woods.
Both Frenzied Flame and Messmer want to cleanse the world with fire.
Until now I always thought Miquella and Malenia were cursed because their parents were the same person. But now I think the fact Marikas rise to god hood was on top a ton of bodies I think hee blood line is just cursed. As far I can remember the only child of marika that didn't have some sort of curse was Godwyn (probably why he was her favorite) and I guess Rannia, Radhan and Rykard weren't cursed either. (Maybe thats why she sent Radagon to have children with Renalla) But Mogh, Margit, Miquella, malenia, Melina, Messmer. All cursed. I'm noticing a pattern
Radagon was always Marika. That’s why Messmer was born cursed by the serpent. Just like Malenia and Miquella were also cursed. It’s because they’re all born of one entity.
Im not sure we I can agree that Messmer ever set foot in the lands between, OR, if he did so, I cannot agree he did so as brazenly as suggested. Messmer’s actual name, is never once uttered or alluded to in the lands between. His remembrance directly states that Marika hid her “child” away within the realm or shadow. It wouldnt make sense for her to do so and then have Messmer come back to kill the fire giants etc.
Tl;dr: i dont think there is ample support to suggest messmer ever set foot in the lands between after marika brought him to the realm of shadow
Using blasphemous blade too because not just me had trouble. Didn’t even have the strength to not two hand the thing
messmer should know about the shattering since it’s said everyone in the shadow realm felt it when marika broke the elden ring
Messmer did for Marika what Rykard did for the golden order. Hiding and working in the shadows so that everyone can live in the light.
Messmer kinda reminds me of Zahak the Serpent King, mainly because of the snakes.
I'm predicting a second dlc, and the area will be called the Land of Light. The Gate of Divinity I believe will be the way to the second dlc area.
such a great boss fight. love the dialogue as well
"Really? This schmuck is gonna be my new step-dad?"
So what the heck is the abyssal serpent shorn of light? Maybe a video on that could be fascinating
Always the tragic ones that have the best quotes
How much of that guy do you have to be to not say my name but “Messemer’s Flame” like what😭
I think his story is a sad one for sure, Of the two only Melina is the one who seeks your help in the lands between only to burn as is her wish. But in the bad ending she opens an eye that was previously closed! Messmer is missing an eye and given a seal for the other by his mother to subdue him from his gifts of his dark fire, a Dark flaming outer god chose him. Same for Mogh and Morgot, Though Mogh has a flame that is based out of blood taken from te Formless mother. Its interesting to see all children of Marika save for her beloved perfect Godwin were all brutally cursed! Malenia with scarlet rot Miquella eternal youth, Mogh and Morgot fell omen and Messmer and Melina the first to see flame, one burnt a world down and one burnt herself down. Man the story in this game and all souls games is the best out there, nothing rivals it.