Timestamps: 0:00 Intro 3:26 Gojo VS Jogo 6:00 Tai Lung VS Furious 5 7:46 Dragons VS Armies 10:19 Dae-Su VS Thugs 13:05 Thanos VS Avengers & Guardians 16:18 Saitama VS Boros
Along the lines of Dae-Su vs the thugs, I was actually thinking about the Netflix Daredevil series, specifically the halfway fight early in season 1, and I was hoping it would be here because I was curious about your thoughts, I actually need to go rewatch it myself, I don't remember specifics but I think it avoids the one-thug-at-a-time thing until it's justified because Daredevil has beaten the thugs to the point only one of them can stand up to fight him at a time 😂
Basically every fight from the World Trigger manga is a masterclass in strategy, and is usually a david v golaiath. One thing I love is that its never just the heroes who are smart. No one ever loses due to being an idiot, just by the opponent having a more thought out plan. I think the first fight in the B Rank Wars arc is a great fight to illustrate this since it requires very little context to understand, making it good for making a point in a 20-30 minute video. Note that the anime is awful so reading it will probably be farm more enjoyable and interesting.
"One thug at a time" works well if the choreography makes it clear that the fly swatter is maneuvering to make his opponents face him one at a time. For example, if he chooses a chokepoint for the fight, or stays mobile so the group has to keep chase and he keeps singling out opponents. That's how you beat multiple opponents in real life, after all.
In the Witcher 3 game there's a castle ruins full of bandits I always tackle way too early in order to get a specific reward, and it has literally dozens of bandits, with reinforcements spawning in, and since I'm so underleveled I basically die in two hits, making it impossible to survive unless I use the terrain to my advantage. From being a real pain in the ass, it has grown to be my favorite fight in the entire game, because I feel like a goddamn musketeer fighting my way around a castle, finding choke points in doorways and on stairs, forced to actually use my spells creatively to stay alive instead of just using the same few trusty spells in the same way in every fight. Any movie fight where someone is facing more than three opponents who don't all rush him makes me roll my eyes so hard.
@@korganrocks3995 Eh depends, it gets difficult to swarm a guy all at once after a certain point, because you are more likely to hit your allies than the little left of your opponent, and different weapons clear different amounts of space near a person- though in most cases it usually makes sense to form a ring around the foe even if you are not actively engaging. Of course most things in film are exxagerated to the point of breaking suspension of belief, but the inversion of a flawed or false picture is still seldom the completly correct one
@@No-longer1 This is why the lone fighter having a blade(preferably a long one) makes this kind of thing much more realistic, because no one wants to get too close to it. A lone fighter wielding a blunt weapon or no weapon at all is easily taken down by several people rushing him at once. Whether this actually is what happens in real fights when a single person is outnumbered doesn't actually matter for the realism; all that matters is what the average viewer finds realistic. Most people have not participated in or seen fights between one person and multiple opponents in reality, so while we might be way off, we'll still be bothered by the perceived unrealistic scene.
in a D&D encounter one time my character's party encountered an enemy who was way too strong for all of us at once. so my character cast shape earth on the ledge under his feet to trip him up so we could RUN!
14:30 In general defense of the "waiting to use your full power" trope, it actually does make realistic sense when you think of it terms of how easy it is to use some of your strength vs all of it. Why drop a nuke on every opponent, when a few punches will do? Once they start showing a chance of actually winning, though, that's when the cost becomes outweighed by the possibility of actually losing the fight, and that's when it makes sense to use your full power.
It also does work for characterisation, specifically to display a character’s pride. A good example of this would be Emiya Shirou vs Gilgamesh in Fate: Unlimited Blade Works, where Gilgamesh explicitly states that he would consider using his full power to be a loss, because that’s the standard he must hold himself to as a king. He loses because he doesn’t use his strongest weapon, but it doesn’t feel unsatisfying at all because it’s entirely realistic for him to do so. Thanos also works in that context, because he’s an egomaniac and equally has his pride to uphold. He takes his armour off at the beginning of the movie for exactly that reason, he doesn’t believe anything is a threat to him with the stones. And when he does almost lose the gauntlet, he panics and immediately starts spamming his strongest attacks, exactly how you’d expect someone in that situation to do.
For Thanos specifically, he has a great reverence for peoples will to fight/survive. It's why he instantly fell in love with the orphaned Gamora. Thanos believes in doing whatever is necessary to survive, both individually, and as a society. This is reflected in how he raised his adopted daughters, and then epitomized in his sacrifice of Gamora for the soul stone. Thanos could incapacitate his opponents in one blow, but he wants to see their fighting spirit, their tenacity.
If you play video games you definitely understand this. Why waste your nuke spell on a level 1 goblin? He only does 1 spell of damage and you need this in a more serious situation.
Yeah it depends on the situation. The trope is definitely overused in anime, and to a lesser extent in superhero media, but sometimes you really do need to hold back. Captain Commander Yamamoto from Bleach, for example, can burn the entire world to a crisp in like a few minutes by using his Bankai (for the uninitiated, Bankai is a powerup in Bleach that is essentially the trump card of every character who possesses one).
@@KLIXORthe Also, he actually *likes* fighting. " _C'mon!_ " The team were fighting to keep him off-balance, so they could all get the drop on him at once, and probably so their powers and abilities wouldn't interfere with each other. Everything they were doing was to stun Thanos so they could get the glove off.
The opening of the Kung Fu Panda Bridge fight is very cool visual storytelling. Ti Lung switches to walking on the support rope, forcing Tigress to shift her balance while he remains collected and relaxed. Even before the fight begins, he’s already in control and throwing his opponents off their rhythem
What I like is Ti Lung Doesn't take a fighting stance ever. He only performs the moves when needed when possible. He changes the bridge and adapts his posture. While Tigress is stiff and sticks to the formal stance that isn't possible on a single rope. She struggles trying to keep on the flat boards to keep her posture. Showing in a cool way the message of the movie, but now it's the bad guy whose teaching it to those who refuse to change.
@@magnusm4 Something I want to note is that as far as I can remember there is only one other fighter who takes a formal stance, Shifu. This shows how Tigress hasn't fully developed her skills for herself and copies her master rather then Tai lung who rejects his master and uses the style he made himself.
5:00 The explaining bit caught my eye because Gege made jjk have a GREAT way around the cliché of characters explaining their techniques for no reason. In jjk universe, you can make a binding vow that can make your technique output stronger if you explain how it works.
And sometimes it's the narrator who explains the abilities which tbh i really enjoy. The way the narrator phrases the explanation in such an articulated way feels like it's explaining some kind of holy art piece. For example the narrator explaining Sukuna's domain with the malevolent shrine theme playing was beautiful.
Another thing that makes the Saitama/Boros fight interesting is how it turns the antagonist into basically the underdog: as the fight goes on, the focus slowly shifts from Saitama, who’s having an easy time as always, to Boros who’s really giving his all and even enjoying this surprising challenge that suddenly fell into his hands. Every time Saitama tanks his moves, or resists one of his power-ups, Boros doesn’t feel fear, or rage, but excitement and fulfillment. All of this helps making an ultimately one-note, derivative character more endearing and memorable, to the point one may even root for him, a little bit
I've ended up saving that episode in my video collection. I go back to it from time to time it's a great episode. The part where Saitama starts to show more interest as Boros survies a Punch is also a nice touch. The destructive showcase of power that everyone else outside of their fight witnesses also help to sell it
The duality of these two in the fight is a perfection. In the end, when Boros recognizes Saitama holding back, and you see that shot of our One Punch Man walking away, it doesn't feel like his victory. Before, there was this dream of his, when he actually struggled against some made-up underground monsters. And he was HAPPY. Here, it's made a reality, but flipped - yes, Boros dies, but he also has the most fun in ages, the only thing that he craved. And Saitama KNOWINGLY give him that. Didn't hold back because HE wanted to have some fun, no - he is in the usual state of apathy. Instead, he did so, by recognizing himself in Boros and giving HIM the fulfillment that he wanted/needed so much. The weirdly fucked-up act of ultimate understanding and kindness. This one fight does so much work for character of Saitama in such a short time, it's actually masterful.
About Thanos not using his best abilities right away (and about that trope in general). I think there are generally three reasons for why a character wouldn't try to just end the fight right away: 1. They don't think they need it/they don't think it's worth their time. If the "swatter" doesn't think that the flies are really anything to be concerned about in the slightest, they are probably going to start by just swatting them, rather than dropping a nuke on them. Maybe it's to conserve energy, or limit collateral damage, or even just so that their fights don't feel boring to them. You don't always use your ultimate ability when fighting fodder enemies in games, do you? 2. They want to play with their food. You mentioned not liking this trope but like, there are definitely characters who like to give their "flies" false hope by prolonging the fight artificially. Think about the "ooo good one, you almost had me there!" type of villain, as the heroes get more and more exhausted and desperate. 3. They just want the fight to be interesting. This is sort of a fusion of 1 and 2, but sometimes they don't go all out right away because they want to see what the other person can do or treat it like a sparring match. Think about the training fight with Saitama and Genos in season 1. Go back and watch and see the wonder and awe in Saitama's eyes whenever Genos does something cool. Some characters want to fight just because they enjoy interacting with interesting opponents.
With regards to the last fight shown here, that being the Saitama V Boros fight, there's also another layer to the whole thing that feeds into characterisation. Boros gives a monologue preceding the one he was interrupted in, where he explains he spent 20 years flying across the entire universe seeking a worthy opponent. While Saitama never did any searching by conquering planets, he does fully understand the boredom Boros faces, so him not fighting back and even asking "Are you done?" mid-monologue adds to his characterisation that he's deliberately giving Boros a chance to fight at full power to give him that thrill Saitama himself thinks he'll never find. That very characterisation is the reason the fight goes on as long as it does, and yet it still works because Boros is using new powers and transforms twice within the relatively small space of 12 or so minutes.
Viewers are always waiting for Saitama rival during the show. And Boros fight really gives them (hope) that "this is it". But yeah, it's actually just heavily masked fly swatting You just don't expect this guy survive THIS MUCH damage. But Saitama just doesn't care😂
Part of what makes it spectacular is the sheer spectacle of it. The manga is exceedingly well drawn, which sells the sheer scale of carnage that the fighters (Mainly Boros) inflict: blowing through thousands of decks, ripping hull plating, smashing Saitama so hard he hits the moon, and that beautiful contrast of how the cloud cover is completely spilt. All that just doesn't affect our character in any meaningful way. Sure, the fight has zero tension as Satamina clearly isn't giving his all, even though his normal series of attacks are pretty basic and has all the energy of "well I guess I better finish it now because this is getting out of hand. Oh, and I'll throw one punch with intent to kill to finish the fight". But every panel is drawn gloriously which sells the sheer scale of the conflict that we can't help but be entertained. Plus we had the S-class heroes build up just how damn challenging Boro's minions are, so we are fully sold on how big a deal this fight is, just the protagonist is just too strong to even care. That sets the stakes that isn't exceeded until much later in the manga.
Regarding the Old Boy hallway fight scene, I think it does it well. for starters, unlike normal fights, this takes place in a small hallway, and as we see a lot of the thugs have sticks and weapons you gotta swing. They need room to do that, and even more to swing and not hit their own allies. That kind of forced positioning and decision making can lead to people standing there and waiting. Second, it's not like a Steven Segal movie where he tirelessly takes out 20 dudes one at a time. The entire time our protag is getting more and more tired. It makes some sense to wait to go in if the guy before you might tire the other guy out. Lastly, I think this works super well because it's all one single shot with no cuts. Flooding the screen with all the guys at once would cover the fight itself and prevent us from even seeing what's going on, including the knife stab. The whole fight is done with that camera in mind.
14:27 "I always wonder why people don't use their strongest attack first" - Sans Tzu, the art of turn-based war Edit : ok guys, it was just a Sans meme, you can stop proving it wrong in the replies.
I feel like the best reason for this is that a strong attack is usually exhausting. If you use it on any random mook, you might not be able to use it on an actual threat that shows up later. Additionally, you might not be aware of your opponent's power, so you build up to your strongest attack to see what it takes to take this person out. For examplez if you play a game, do you use your ultimate ability on any random enemy, or do you save them for bosses or when you are really in a pickle? The only way where you can safely use your most powerful attack at the start is when you know the strength of your opponent(s) and know it is worth it to use it.
In most competitive games, where your power is unknown it is to save your trump cards for two situations. First one is if you are about to lose. The second is if you force your opponent into a situation it would be almost impossible to survive it. Games like Magic the Gathering basically revolves around this strategy. If you play your hand too early, you are much, much easier to counter as they know exactly what to expect if it doesn't defeat them.
@@FalconAvian Another facet is if you stop looking at battles and shift focus to the whole war. Showing an enemy your full power even if you could have won without it gives them the opportunity to prepare against it in the next fight. Using it when the opponent is in a compromised spot or by using the additional surprise that comes with it when using it later causes additinoal benefits. So while many shows use it to try and make a fight interesting (and at times failing at that because of it) there can also be strategy behind it.
Because you have to fill up a combo or special meter or something like that first (for some rarely explained reason,) and it's always empty at the start of each battle. So you gotta essentially just waste time with basic attacks to fill the meter before you get to eventually use the moves that actually do enough damage to matter. cough Xenoblade series cough cough
In boxing, jyou don't start strong as You may leave yourself Open and lose steam early, and generally good defense beats your Best punches everytime. Going all out at first is a strategy if You KNOW FOR A FACT that your rival is better than You and would destroy You on a long fight
My favourite fly swatting scene that comes to mind is Gojo vs Jogo, Hanami, Choso, and Mahito. The fact that they have a reasonable plan to counter Gojo, are taking advantage of the terrain and all of their abilities to the fullest, and yet Gojo still brutally decimates them is amazing to watch. Especially when he manages to focus down Hanami and fully finish him off, too often in fights are characters slapped around and left until they can get back up. It's the first time we see Gojo go all-out and actually have to exert himself, and it's got great characterizations for all characters involved, great strategy from the weaker side, and great visuals and animation to back it all up. Truly an instant classic.
I think this fight is not a fly swatting fight because in the end they win, they don't kill him but they manage to capture him because of Kenjaku. And this results in the escalation of the Shibuya incident.
I'd argue it's more of a David Vs Goliath fight due to the outcome and because the weaker side employs a lot of strategy to try to beat the stronger side but i digress
Just because the hallway scene doesn't fit your neat categorization doesn't detract from the magnum opus of cinema that scene was. That scene was pure art.
It was alright. It made a good foundation, but it wasn't really all that crazy on its own. What matters is that future media noticed the concept because of it and improved upon it over time. The daredevil tv show is one good example. I think "The Raid"s take was the real magnum opus of the trope
I think another perfect example of fly swatting from One Punch Man comes even before Boros: The Deep Sea King fight. He quickly becomes the biggest threat we've seen so far in the show, the stakes are quickly set that he can (and will) destroy every human on that and every other city, we see every character struggle in the show so far fight with their all only to fail, it develops Genos character because he chooses to almost sacrifice himself for a random girl (before this fight, he didn't even care for civilian casualties) and shows Mumen Rider (a "nobody" without power who does as much as he always can and more to help) try to take on Deep Sea while giving a moving speech, only to fail completely afterwards. It's a fly swatting in the villain's favour. And at the end, when Saitama finally arrives, they pull the rug from under the spectator feet, and the fight's over before Deep Sea King can even land a punch. The fly swatting reverses, and then we see how everyone cheers for Saitama, but dismisses everyone else's sacrifice just because they couldn't defeat the monster. So he discredits himself saying it was because of everyone else and he'll steal the credit. So the glory goes back to those who almost gave their lives for the fight, even if it means he'll be hated by everyone, because he doesn't care about his image, his name or his "brand". He genuinely wants to help not because he'll get something for it, but because he has the power to do so. And this fight shows how far he's wiling to go, sacrificing his public image for the sake of everyone else's The fight's a double fly swatting that feels interesting, develops two character, leaves you with a better understanding of the protagonist and never overstays it's welcome since it ends in literally a single punch
Personally I don’t think that saitama “doesn’t care” about his image. He cares just a little bit. We see him get frustrated during the meteor event, the hammer head gang jackin his bald look, and caped baldy is not a name he really likes. It’s just that when push comes to shove he prioritizes other people over his own well being.
@@yukii381it would be better to say that it isn't his priority. He cares about it but won't let it get in the way of helping people, good deals, his friends or having fun as a hero.
Mumen Rider is the greatest hero of all. He is just A Guy, no powers, no strength, but he never backs away from heroic ideals, and will absolutely 100% do everything he can to help others.
Battle against the Deep Sea King was such a good arc. Even Saitama was feeling down because how easily he defeated it, reinforcing his depression, yet he pushed through and made the most heroic decision: give the credit to the rest of the team.
Deep Sea King was never the biggest threat in the show. Carnage Kabuto, Vaccine Man, and Beefcake smash him. You're also wrong that Genos didn't care about civilian casualties, his whole motivation is avenging civilian casualties and when he first showed up he checked for casualties before firing his ultimate attack as Mosquito Girl. Is this even a real post or was it AI generated? Unless you're just THAT bad at analysing media.
The Oldboy fight also has the added element of being in a hallway, if he fought them on a parking lot he'd definitely lose but the hallway makes it more even.
I think the better David vs Goliath fights are the ones where David's goal isn't to defeat Goliath, just secure an objective that is within their reach when outright victory would be impossible for them. Tien from Dragonball Z isn't really allowed to win any fights after Dragonball given the universal power scaling being a joke for humans, but he's able to hold Semiperfect Cell off for a while to allow other characters to escape by using a move that could never kill Cell, but it can push him deeper and deeper into a crater so that he can't get up and pursue his targets. Tien burns through his own life energy, showing he's putting way more into this than Cell is to close the power gap a bit while Cell needs energy to still actually win a fight when he gets out, and Tien's doing it to cause a disruption way above his weight class rather than outright victory. There's no question at any point that Cell could kill Tien, but rather the drama is in whether or not Tien can successfully stall Cell before burning out his own life or slipping up and dying to Cell. The audience doesn't know the outcome the same way they do when weaker protagonist must defeat stronger antagonist for narrative conclusion, as Tien can simply die and the narrative moves on to the obviously stronger characters who are going to be the real battle, but it kept our attention to see how it went down.
This was the first thing I thought about when I read the title- instances when the stakes are not tied to who wins the fight, but some other aspect of it. "Sure, character A isn't going to beat character B, but can A keep B distracted long enough for C to escape with the macguffin?" Actually, that Vader scene from Star Wars: Rogue One is a great example of this.
For the first Thanos fight, I got the impression that these characters (most of whom only met shortly prior) were not good at working together and had to learn by receiving the beat down, which would be a humbling experience to the usually solo superheros. When critiquing a fight, I wouldn't call out just the writers. A good fight needs the director, fight choreographer, visual effects supervisor, and the write all working together to be the best it can be. Great video!
Three of them were teammates. Two of them were also teammates. Strange was the only hero there who wasn't with a pal. It wasn't about humbling. They kept Thanos off-balance, but the second he realized they might actually win, he uncorked the bottle.
@@Shitposting_IHMNyou in the wrong comment section to be talkin bout cringe 😂 let folks have fun, stop makin yourself not have fun, its not good for your health
5:10 Small correction here: This isn't the first time a domain expansion is used in jjk. Sukuna used a domain against the finger bearer a few episodes ago in episode 4. However, this IS the first time that they explain how it works and show that other characters can use it aside from Sukuna. Sukuna's domain expansion was meant to leave the viewer curious as to what it was and how it worked, then it leads to this episode where both Jogo and Gojo use a domain expansion and gojo explains it to both yuji and us, the audience. Haven't watched the rest of the video since I wanted to point this out but it is VERY entertaining and informative as of now! Keep up the good work 👍
I feel like there's a handful of good situations for one-at-a-time fights and that fight scene actually makes sense to me. It's a fairly narrow hallway with a bunch of street thugs who probably didn't discuss strategy in advance. A lot of them are wielding weapons they use in wide-swinging arcs, which don't work well in narrow spaces. The dude they're fighting also has a weapon. So, naturally, it takes a second for everyone to get up to speed and they only work well together once or twice. Some of them are more aggressive than others, some hang back because they're worried about catching a stray from a friend, etc. I think it was about as close to realistic as it could get and still have the good guy win.
One at a time is how 1vX are won in real life, because good positionning, friendly fire and untrained cohesiveness allows to force successive 1v1s. Go look at fights, go look at weapon sparring. One at a time is far from an automatic sin. That being said, what was shown was the most unwinnable situation I have ever seen. All his "good exemples" had the 1 in the 1vX be clearly physically superior in an open field, so with way better odds. If he ever lost suspension of disbelief, it's not because of one at a time, it's because the guy won at all.
I think the other thing that gives it a pass on for me as a viewer is the fact it's done in one continuous shot. Just makes me respect the scene even more.
The way One Punch Man uses a lot of its fight is the characterization of those _around_ Saitama. At the beginning, only a very small handful of characters even have a fraction of understanding just how truly powerful he is. As it goes on, more characters realize that Saitama can probably handle most threats. However, the Sea King episode puts in to context: what is the point of having other heroes if one person does it all? What truly makes someone heroic? It has character moments for a surprising amount of people. An A class hero overestimating his abilities, an S class hero trying to redeem himself, an S tier villain realizing he's outclassed and would rather live to fight another day, heroes of various skill levels realizing the strength in numbers, an S class hero who has the villain on the ropes but chooses to sacrifice himself to prevent an innocent death, an A class hero who goes full mask off about vanity, and *THE BEST HERO OF THEM ALL* : a man with no special skills standing up for what is right knowing full well he doesn't stand any chance of winning.
I love how this happens in Baki When Baki fights someone, it's like "How is he gonna beat this guy" because Baki usually goes for opponents stronger than him When Yujiro fights someone, it's still like "How's he gonna beat this guy" because despite winning every fight in like ten seconds, Yujiro never beats his enemies with a normal punch. It's usually something insane like ripping a dudes face off with one hand or pushing them through an entire convenience store
Bro Ryu Kaioh was crazy STILL trying to fight Yujiro after getting his face ripped off. Mans had to get roundhouse kicked in his skinless face and had Retsu begging before he gave up
The 1v1 nature of the oldboy hallway fight is so easily forgiven due to a couple things. First: It's in a hallway, that really limits how many people can come for him at once. Second: As the fight goes on, the thugs are clearly scared and don't want to fight and get their ass kicked.
The main flaw in powerscaling is that most (like 99.9%) of authors don't write fights in accordance to what some nerds on the internet calculated. Storytelling/writing just works differently and the plot and character arcs are in most cases way more important to the outcome of a fight than what the combatans are theoratically capable of. So it's fine if you just do it for fun but some get really obsessive about it and get outright mad when fights don't play out to their expectatoins.
Ikr I some times do power scaleing for a bit of fun but like it's just fictional characters from different franchises for I know me and the other person I'm talking with both be wrong
Referring to your invested audience as "some nerds on the internet" is an indicator that you're likely to miss opportunities to improve your storytelling. In a worse scenario, you may be failing to connect with the majority of your audience. They were actively following your story until it ripped a rug from under them in such a manner that it left them feeling angry, making it unintentionally more memorable than plots and arcs and other things they were paying attention to up to that point. If anger wasn't the emotion you intended to evoke, maybe you can do better. This is not a flaw of powerscaling at all, it's an indication that there's a passionate audience out there who care about every aspect of your story. Would you rather your story be ignored and never discussed?
@@smokelingersI would say this has less to do with power scaling than with quality of writing. My primary example of that has to do with DC comics and when you have things like Batman vs Superman. Obviously suoerman is stronger than batman, there is no question, but in a lot of scenarios batman wins due to prior planning. The issue comes from less whether or not the power scaling makes sense but whether or not the fight is well written. If a fight is well written then it doesn’t matter which character wins because it can be explained convincingly why that character won. If it is poorly written then if the character who appears weaker wins it feels unsatisfying and unrealistic.
@@jamesbonds8287 I agree. There are believable ways to write extremely powerful characters getting their butt whooped, outsmarted, etc. I do understand the OPs point that it can be fine to prioritize entertainment value over realistic or believable scenarios. It's funny when Storm Troopers miss at point blank. I just didn't like the way they justified it as if any criticism can only come from no-life nerds online.
Thanos is pretty arrogant when you think about. He thought and knew there was no way they’d bounce back from that, and in the end when he died on Titan he didn’t care because he did what he needed to do.
@@alex2005z at risk of sounding stupid (I haven't seen the movie), if you plan on killing half the universe, there's no reason not to start with a couple guys in front of you, right?
@@Squampopulous I think he wanted the stones to decide who lives or dies or something. Plus he is "Honest" about the way he does thing and he does keep deals
Not mentioned with the Gojo vs Jogo fight is that exposition fits into the actual mechanics of JJK's power system. The Binding Vow. Giving up something in return for an upgrade in your technique. A sorceror explaining to their opponent about how their power works gives up the element of surprise, allowing the opponent possibly finding a work around but boosting that power's effectiveness in return.
I dont really think it was like that. I think Gojo was really just screwing with Jogo because he knew he could never lose that 1 v 1. Which funnily enough puts into perspective just how similar Gojo and Sukuna are and i think Gege did it intentionally. Having Gojo toy with Jogo in an almost lighthearted manner but still being brutally honest about jogo being weak in comparison. Then sukuna chose to show jogo the difference in their ability by beating it into his very being. Gojo is really apathetic about being the strongest and sukuna has a need to exert his strength on others.
My personal favourite approach is the One Punch Man "matter of course" flyswatting. Character is in the middle of doing something, gets interrupted or attacked, swats away the attacker and goes back to what they were doing without breaking their train of thought. Rather like swatting a literal fly while dining outside and holding a conversation. One might remark on being annoyed at the fly, but it doesn't turn into an actual fight.
For David vs Goliath fights, I >BEG OF YOU< to use some Hunter x Hunter fight. Doesn't matter which. It can be Gon vs Genthru, it can be Killua vs the Chimera Ant siblings, it can be Meruem vs Netero, it can be... SO MANY of the fights in that show. That show is the KING of David vs Goliath fights and your video on the topic will NOT be complete without it. It's also the inspiration for JJK.
Jujutsu tech students againtst the forest curse was a fly swatting until the arrival of besto friendos at which point it became a david and goliath battle Poor david had a real hard time managing the boogie woogie and yuji "Black flash mashinegun" itadori
HunterxHunter also does something interesting for flyswatting, in that is characterizing the loser and failing to use their nen to the fullest, as with hisoka vs kastro or Morelle vs Cheetu.
As a budding author who struggles with writing fight scenes, I'm definitely super invested. You handle this topic, it seems, with competence and experience! Definitely staying tuned.
I think a major things with Thanos is that he's very steadfast and focused on his self-righteous mission and doesn't view himself as any kind of tyrant or murderer, his moves tend to go just as far as necessary for optimal results, so while it may have been optimal to try and incapacitate everyone from the start he doesn't really behave like the antagonist until people insist on getting in his way. In the end, everyone will face off against chance when he achieves his goal.
@@Squampopulous i think you also forgot that in that scene the fight took place in a tight hallway, making it so that there was very little room for them to attack all at once.
@@glatykoffi6672 yep the key to winning or at least surviving ganking in real life is to force the opponents to a situation that makes their number advantage useless
Old Boy: you're missing out that this is happening in a narrow corridor preventing them to all attack at the same time. You also probably got confused by the side view which is only a cinematic view as opposed to what is really happening in the movie and some actors might be stepping a bit out of where they should have stayed when they all attack at the same time. As for 20 guys attacking at the same time, try it with 19 of your friends armed with a baseball bat vs a moving piñata and you'll see that it requires crazy coordination if you don't want to hit each others bats, hands, arms and face. Everyone is hesitating and scared of their teammates who could hit them by accident.
Old boy being mentioned as a bad fight was something i didn't expected at all. The fight was never intended to be a great fight, where Odesu can show off his skills. The movie is about him and the antagonists crazy revenge fantasy. Odesu just did some work out in a room for years on end without any fighting skills. The Hallway where the fight mentioned takes place in was not only very narrow but also wet, and you can even see the thugs slipping on the floor or missing hits due to space and slipping, same with Odesu. On top of that, noone won the fight. Odesu managed to get out there alive, since noone really wanted to continue to battle as Odesu is clearly insane, unpredictable and managed to get through the mass of people. Its one of the best fight scenes in cinema for the whole choreography being in one single shot, where the fight in itself is cohesive (in comparison he could have used the Old Boy Remake fight scene as a bad example instead), and realistically not a single person realistically would have been able to get out of Odesus situation alive
Perfectly said. I also made a comment on this but yours is much more concise. The whole video’s credibility sort of went down for me when somehow one of the greatest 1vX scenes in film history is being slandered like this. Want an example of an actual dogshit scene? The Oldboy American remake fight scene. That is clearly what the video should have referenced.
@@sovereignreclaimer you're so right about the remake! I couldn't finish it. So I don't know if at the end his love interest was also his daughter and if he stays with her
I think the one thug at a time trope is one thing that can also be done right too. I think it’s done well in both examples you showed. It’s hard to coordinate an attack with a team that’s just put together. You have to watch out for the guys on your side accidentally hurting you on top of who your against
Nice! I remember discussing the Old Boy hall fight with a friend a few years back and not being able to articulate my dislike as well as you did here. Your classification system and names are immediately helpful for any such discussion.
I agree with this video, and thanks for making the clarification about power scaling. I didn't watch your other video you mentioned yet, but the clarification was probably necessary to prevent a false portrayal of power scaling. The people who get too sensitive about it and become narrative blind from it ruin its reputation.
One thing to make fights more interesting is alternative objectives. e.g. Gon doesn't need to defeat Hisoka, he just needs to take his badge/land a good punch A fight can be interesting if each party has a different victory condition.
@@Squampopulous Also, some things you didn't talk about with Boros: At the end of the first ep saitama has a dream where he fights opponents that can actually fight him, and there's a moment where we see his stylised heartbeat to show his excitement. Just before Boros' final attack, we see a colour-inverted version of the same heartbeat from Boros. Saitama fought Boros like he did in order to give meaning to his life, because he related to his boredom. Their characters have strong parallels, and it's more thematic than most people think.
Speaking of Hunter X Hunter and alternative objectives, the fly swatting fight between Gon and Hanzo is interesting for exactly this reason. Here, the fly actually wins, because he completes his objective, while the fly swatter doesn't.
I'm in the process of writing a campaign for some friends in a D&D game and one thing I have planned out down the line is a "reverse jump moment" where the party gets their ass beat by the big bad. This video has given me some great pointers for when that fight happens.
Flyswatting when used properly is also kind of the "Hypeman" for all the fight categories. It's not needed all the time, but when used as a "show don't tell" it really helps set the bar and anticipation of other fights. A good David Goliath Fight feels even better when you have actually seen how much of a threat the Goliath is and how much effort is needed from the characters in order to win. Same with Toss Up and All Star fights as you know it will be a spectacular clash based on what you have seen before. Even when the tables turn in a Fly Swatter fight where the one being swatted overcomes and ends up doing the swatting, really highlighting both how far the character has come both in the instance and compared to the entire setting. A good example is Tylong because even though by itself him vs Po is an amazing fight both visually and for characterization, it's further expanded upon with the audience seeing the fight vs the furious five or the prison break since now before the fight there is the anticipation that Po is gonna have his work cut out for him, and the payoff how far he has come when he wins. Another good example is Saitama. Yes for the most part the fight is decided before it even starts, making Saitama the flyswatter, but with Saitama's character the fun comes from the "what if" sitting in the back of the minds of the audience. Boros was extremely powerful and framed in a way that at the start he not only did he survive a punch, something we havn't seen before, but actually looked like he was doing something vs Saitama, and the hype grew to "omg could this be THE fight?". Thats a big reason Garou really well liked and is another great example if you ever get around to watching the second season or reading the manga. Not only does he pretty much fall into every fight category at some point but with how many powerful characters there is in one punch man it is both satisfying seeing him get flyswatted knowing he still has a way to go, or do the flyswatting knowing how far he has come.
Idk if this would count as a toss up or a david-goliath but the Tanjiro vs Rui fight would be great imo. I love when fights show the conviction of the "david" in that tanjiro was willing to decapitate rui even if hed be slashed to ribbons. If not this fight itd be cool for you to include a fight in which the "david" has overwhelming conviction, that shit gets me every time. Love the vids man keep it up
Personally my man I like how you conduct yourself during these videos it's very Informational and also has your own personal ideas which I like that you highlight that because you want to make it known that some of this is your thoughts and opinions or there During fighting stuff are related to the topic Someone who works with some storytelling elements in my own wy this is very helpful and formal thank you,( A random person in the DND community)
Been loving this channel. I don’t know how far into development you are for the David and Goliath fights, but one movie fight you should def include is How to Train Your Dragon and the climatic battle against the big dragon. Not only do we see throughout the battle a bunch of strategies used by the riders previously brought up earlier in the movie (such as fish legs and snot lout using noise to disorient the king dragon) but also hiccups plan to make the king dragon unable to fly by shooting at its wings. Additionally we also get some characterization from multiple characters, such as stoic thanking toothless (a dragon, Vikings mortal enemy for 100s of years) and stakes that occurred after the battle. Hiccup losing a leg & a new relationship formed with dragons. Though it seems this may be a World Cup fight, with the original premise being a David vs Goliath. Hope you see this! Again, the work is amazing and I’m excited for the next release.
I’ve actually been having a lot of trouble with this, thanks. My series that I’m writing has an OP antagonist that is supposed to be a benchmark for the characters to grow to. I wanted to showcase that strength without the butt-whooping being too boring to watch. I’ve been thinking about that a lot lately, and this helped me think some things over.
I would say the big thing worth discussing that didn't show up in this video is the characterization options for the loser of the fight. I don't mean the Naruto-style "let's find out what this guy's deal is in the last 2 seconds before he dies" moment, but rather the flyswattings where characters are left alive. You mention it, kinda, with the joke about "learning more about Quill," but there are a lot of fights - particularly if the one who loses is the protagonist - where a flyswatting is a chance to learn how our character deals with failure, fear, or pain.
14:20 Personally, I disagree with this point. I do believe that in most circumstances Thanos should have ,and would have, taken them all out, but there exists a problem. Thanos wants something from them. It isn't unreasonable to believe that Thanos understood the situation with Doctor Strange, and this scene showcases his wisdom. He knows that Doctor Strange has what he wants, and he has to give it up willingly. I believe this is the purpose of his actions. I believe that this scene shows how he is still a creature with fear, but he has ambition and wisdom that allowed him to have made it this far. I think that the writers included this as a way to express him as a very complex character. This is also why he doesn't slaughter everyone after he wins the time stone. The writers wanted to further the plot that Thanos is egotistical yet merciful, and the decision for him to not finish off one of the greatest threats to his conquest expresses that.
Huh… I thought the opposite lol. Thanos is at the end of his lifelong goal and is basking before the final part. I thought one of the writers must’ve been trying to pigeonhole him into the traditional villain role of monologuing or toying with the heros before finishing their evil plan. Where’s the fun in ending his journey with an insta-win fight via the gauntlet? Why not make the ending fight a hard fought, drawn out beat-down? The bards will sing of this tale for eons. Interesting how different a take we can have XD
in regards to using the gauntlet badly, i think that may just be a case of inexperience, thanos began his crusade like days prior, so the amount of experience and usage he's had of the stones is limited, put that on top of the fact he now has a lot of options to chose from since each stone is so versatile and he might even suffer somewhat from decision paralysis, he could maybe achieve a similar 'stop the enemy from moving' effect from the reality stone making bindings or the space stone grabbing them with telekinesis or something, or he could do any number of other things. it's quite possible that he was litteraly making up every usage of the stone as he went along, figuring it out as he goes along. not sure how much it matters but the thanos of endgame and the thanos of infinity war also fight differently, the one with armor and sword is very in your face about things, while infinity war thanos relies heavily on stones and only sometimes mixes that with melee, him not being used to fighting like that could also be a factor
I agree so much with your take on how viewers want to see a showcasing of the hero's strength, not of the opponents' incompetence. That's why I often find the 'hero VS group of thugs' boring most of the time, but I hadn't been able to put it into words. Omg. Such a great video
Vi and Jayce vs the chemtanks is such a good flyswatting scene because it goes from the enforcers fly swatting the workers, the chemtanks flyswatting the enforcers, and then Vi and Jayce (a character with no fight experience) fly swats the chemtanks, thus showing how insanely overpowering and dangerous Hextech is.
Tbh I think they should’ve used the scene to show Vi in her element while showing Jayce to be stumbling, although being more knowledgeable about his own weapon’s capabilities. Still good fight overall though
One of the reasons I ADORE Full Metal Alchemist: Brotherhood: no matchup is pre determined, even the most "broken" abilities can be countered or subverted due to clever power use and teamplay. It also does not fall into the trap of "random power ups" or people having inherent latent potential which gets called up when needed. All hands, all brain.
Overlord has some very interesting powerscaley fights, one that comes to mind is Brain vs Shalltear, which does a great job of contextualizing Shalltear's (and Nazarek's) actual strength in comparison to the strongest fighters the world has to offer
Good luck! Writing is good for your brain. Everyone outside the hobby seems obsessed with "when are you going to sell your book?" but my advice is just to focus on the process, on learning, and on the kind of scenes you find exciting to write.
One of my favorite fly swatting fights is Red vs Blue's Agent texas vs York, Wyoming and Maine. There are quite some interesting details in the fight that show us more about Texas and also York. It was shown already that Agent Texas was the goat, she already had 2 fly swatting fights where she performed really good, but this time, we get to see that even against top tier agents, she can dispatch them pretty easily (even though York was trying to get Wyoming and Maine to work together and they refused to do so). We see yet again during the bo staff fight round, hand to hand round, and also gun fight round that she mops the floor with them, with most of the time showing off, and i think it is a good detail from the animator that she tries to do these tricks and being cool because some time after that, it'll make sense why she is always depicted like that. Anyways, we see York more into York's personality as someone that makes jokes and satirizes most situations, no matter how hard they get. We get to a a certain gunfight round where Wyoming and Maine are given live rounds and grenades instead of non-lethal ammo, and they go straight to try to kill Texas despite being in a practice session. York gets fed uo with this situation as he didn't know why was it happening, so he tries to help Texas, even though it was the first time he met her. We see that York tried to do the right thing even if it means that he has to betray his teammates. On the other hand Texas reacts to this by saying "I don't need your help, never abandon your team", even though she was dealing with 2 top tier agents that were actively trying to kill her, which shows how she values loyalty (despite that she always tries to do things on her own) above everything, or maybe not, but that's a spoiler. And yeah, she rejects York's help and even gets to beat his ass in one of her outburst of rage when she got shot in the shoulder by Wyoming. At the end of the fight, Maine accidentally throws a grenade to York, he couldn't react to it because he was stunned after getting hit by a huge block of concrete. How he survives the grenade? Texas started shooting York with the non-lethal rounds (which on impact it creates like a pink mass that blocks the movement of the armor, so yeah it was used to reduce the impact York would receive), and this also shows that, despite Texas valuing so much loyalty, she is not a senseless murderer and wants to do the right thing. And these traits have a big impact later on and explains why everything turned out to be the way it was (i forgot to tell that the fight took place way earlier than the current events of the show)
I’ve been loving your videos I’ve been here for about 3 weeks and you make some of my favourite videos I love watching people analyze movies characters and genres
Well put together video, accurate breakdowns, entertaining watch, good examples, and no just talking for the sake of talking. I'm glad I found this channel. I will say though, I think the definition done for 'Characterization' misses the mark just a tad. After all, not all new things are entertaining, such as when the pattern of the new information's nature is repetitive or too predictable. So to speak, if you can swat one fly? Cool. Now you swat two or three? Cool. If we keep bumping up without much difference in the 'nature' of the info, like maybe twisting the motivation, then the 'new' information becomes stale before it's sold. We need the showcases to continue to show variety in order to keep the nature 'fresh'.
Great videos. Seems like Kill Bill has a tone of excellent examples of these different types of fights. I think it does what you're talking about quite well. I really thought about it thinking about how the sword fight against the gang is an example of somehow having a fight against a huge number not just fall into the 'they line up and fight one at a time' trope. So for David v. Goliath I might say that The Bride vs. Budd. Maybe it's not enough of a 'fight scene' but we've seen her absolutely mow down everyone in her path, and then she is going after this out of shape has been, who uses his apparent weakness to hit her with a shotgun blast. Very tactical in context.
Kill Bill also has one of the most egregious "one-at-a-time" flyswatting scenes. Much like Rey and Kylo Ren in the throne room, you can clearly see the stuntspeople waiting patiently for their mark before they take two steps in and get slashed on cue.
Love this analysis. As to your points on One Punch Man, I know you haven't read or watched it in a while or perhaps even fully, but I would add to what you said. Its not just exploring the idea "Its lonely at the top" or even primarily exploring that idea, though that is part of it. It's also exploring how people are recognized for power. Its a satire not just on anime, but on society, and the expectations people have for the powerful, the skilled, and the respectable. We see over and over again that very few people recognize Saitama's skill despite his many battles that have literally saved the entire earth or cities from destruction. Because he acts so "normal," is humble, doesn't constantly brag about himself, and because of his bearing and appearance, as well as his direct and honest way of speaking and personality, he is often overlooked by a hero society of grandstanders, arrogant megalomaniac, and powerful people who are always competing for praise, money, and heirarchy. Because of this lack of recognition, he struggles with money, achieves great power but isn't recognized for his actions and abilities, and doesn't rank up highly as a hero. He also finishes fights so quickly and efficiently that many common people watching in the crowds can't even comprehend what they are seeing, and if they do, its anticlimactic and less showy than, for example, Bicycle man, who struggles nearly to the death and loses to a villain, but rouses and brings hope to the crowd of onlookers and even Saitama himself, who respects him for his humble courage and struggles over the higher ranked powerful heroes. One Punch Man is making a statement about how society values skill and talent. Saitama, because of his personality and the way he acts, his "shortcomings" in being able to sell himself to others, are also his greatest strengths, and yet keep him poor, keep him overlooked, keep him almost unknown and unrecognized. There's a lot of depth to it's critique of society that I've never seen another anime explore.
It should also be noted on the exposition point that in JJK, explaining your abilities straight up empower them. It's a very fun way to get around what would otherwise be very clunky exposition on someone explaing how their power works.
As someone who grapples with this stuff myself - especially so with writing fight scenes - I think I might be able to give some insight into that point you brought up during the Thanos VS Avengers section. That point being that Thanos' realistic reaction would be to finish them as quickly as possible. With regards to a fight like that or similar setups, I notice that it follows what I sometimes call the "Assess And Respond" approach. If you think about it, it's quite a normal thing to do. It's deciding on what's needed for a given situation, and not dipping into overkill. So, for the Fly Swatting metaphor, if you only have a few of them buzzing around, you'd probably stick with basic weapons, or even a bare hand if you're not too squeamish. More than that, and you start scaling your response accordingly. If there's a dozen of them or more, it's probably time to break out chemicals or other implements that can make dealing with them easier. If you only see one or two flies, however... Is going to that extent really necessary, when you can simply thwack 'em and carry on? The same goes for fight scenes. Sure, Thanos no doubt wants to win, but he's probably looking at the Avengers / Guardians like a handful of flies that he can dismantle with his fists and maybe a small dose of magic if he's not liking the way things are going. The Heroes themselves enable this too, coming at him in a flurry of weaker attacks, which signals to Thanos that he doesn't need to use the nuclear option. They're easy enough to handle with his equivalent of a flyswatter. It's only after he realizes that he underestimated them that he lets loose with the guantlet. The point I'm getting at here is, sometimes using the most powerful solution is quite unrealistic, even in a case where a given character does want to win, it may not be necessary. Doing so then makes the character appear as one who is less measured and prone to engaging in overkill to achieve their ends. This can have a whole range of knock-on effects, such as causing some characters appear insecure, reckless, or barbaric, which may run counter to how the writer is trying portray them. Obviously this doesn't always work, but it's good to keep in mind when looking at fight and battle scenes.
For the hallway: Keep in mind that a hallway is a chokepoint, and so the "one thug at a time" strategy isn't so much a bad writing/choreography choice as much as it is a strategic necessity. If you have superior numbers, fighting in a hallway or similar chokepoints is a great way to completely nullify that advantage because only maybe 1-2 of you can actually approach at a time. Anything more and you're all crowding each other. Which is still a bad choice on the thugs' end and it does display their incompetence, but it's not immersion breaking to me.
Something to remember about many vs one fights - more than the writing is at play there. Actually determining how that fight plays out is not the sole domain of the writer. Lots of other people have to figure out how to choreograph and animate/act out the actual fight. And choreographing a many vs one fight is literally _exponentially_ harder (because designing an ideal fight choreography requires one to consider how every individual reacts and interacts with every other.) Also, people (especially in a combat situation) are not rational, perfectly skilled robots. (fun fact: humans inherently tend to assume other humans will/should act unrealistically rationally) It is, in fact, _not realistic_ for a bunch of untrained thugs to promptly coordinate an attack against a skilled fighter. Individuals will think "I'll let someone else wear him down", or get in each other's way, or just straight-up not be sure what to do because the adrenaline and stress is reducing their brain's capacity for critical thinking, etc. People don't want to get hit - and while rushing him with a bunch of other people will probably win the fight, starting that rush means probably being at the front and getting hit.
Just finished watching Frieren. The Frieren vs Drath fight was in my opinion a perfect example of a good flyswatting and i though of your first video immediately. Frieren is obviously not in any danger at any point, and she even tells Drath as much (essencially warning him to run away).
I think it might actually be one of the best David vs Goliaths I’ve ever seen, because not only does the Goliath, Ushijima, not feel weaker as the game goes on, he only gets stronger and stronger, to the point where at the end he’s one of the best depictions of a realistic character feeling genuinely superhuman. He outshines the entire rest of the cast by such a huge margin and yet because the context of the “fight” is a team sport, he’s still beatable. And they don’t even take the easy way out of having him be strong but his team be weak, the rest of his team still all feel realistically strong, but it somehow still doesn’t feel unrealistic when they lose. There’s some alchemy there, and I do feel some slight fudging to make sure everything works, but it’s completely unnoticeable unless you overanalyse it to a completely ridiculous degree.
If you haven't seen it or someone else hasn't already recommended it to you, definitely check out Accelerator from A Certain Magical Index. (and by extension the spin off shows; A Certain Scientific Railgun, and A Certain Scientific Accelerator. Both of which are preferable to Index in my book simply for pacing reasons.) He's my favorite sympathetic villian, and has several flyswatting scenes while also not being completely boring to watch. Love the content, keep up the good work ❤
1:07 Who dat? Anyway, I appreciate this much more nuanced and detailed discussion of powerscaling. The unnecessary hyperbole in the last vid only served to obscure your point, imo, but this is a much clearer explanation of your argument.
I think the rooftop fight scene at the end on Hardcore Henry is a great example of a David vs Goliath fight and I'd love to see it covered! The movie as a whole is great and you should 100% give it a watch. On another note tho, these vids are amazing and suuuper high quality and I'm excited to see more from you! Keep up the good work
I think the best example of a 1 v. many fly-swatting fight that I can think of is the Warehouse fight in Batman v. Superman. Regardless of how you feel about Batman’s characterization, the fight excellently shows how it avoids the tired enemies-taking-turns trope. The most crucial moment of this fight is Batman’s opener as it gives him many advantages against a group: 1) allows him to take the jump on an entire room full of armed men. If you don’t already know, Batman initiated the fight by blowing up the ground beneath the middle of the group. This gives him a unique angle in the fight. 2) some of the men fall through the hole and are instantly taken out of the equation 3) those remaining fall to the ground disoriented 4) this gives Batman enough time to grapple to the ceiling which gives him the vantage point 5) because the thugs never saw him, they still assume he was down there and start firing in the wrong direction 6) Batman’s hidden vantage point gives him the opportunity to use his superior equipment in order to neutralize all of the rifles in the room 7) the device that neutralizes the guns also act as a mini explosive that will take out some of the goons and disorient others 8) after all is said and done, the remaining few are left scattered leaving low chances to jump Batman Once he finally engages in combat, he still uses his superior speed, skill, and gadgetry to dispatch goons and keep others at bay. At most he gets jumped by 3 people. The only guns that still work are measly side arms that can’t penetrate his cowl and gauntlets.
The oldboy choreography makes sense because of the corridor. You have to understand that when you're looking from the side characters are still fighting in a narrow space allowing attacks of couple of people at a time. Even when they gather to stomp him you can see they're very close to eachother because of the hypothetical barrier.
Another great couple of David v Goliath fights have to be Spider-Man vs The Sinister Six from The Spectacular Spider-Man S1E11 and S2E3. Both of them are quite different and also showcase a great use of strategy against stronger opponents, or characterize the growing effects of the black suit.
I love the fight scene in Frieren: Beyond Journey's End, Frieren vs Aurora, where there was a hint that Frieren is OP, but you cannot be sure until the reveal of the backstory. The fight scene is, I think, a great example of fly-swatting.
The thing about the hallway fight I think is how incredibly human it is. They don't all fight him because they might hurt their friends. And they're fighting in a hallway, it's cramped. But also scared. And half way thru the fight you can tell they're running on fumes. They're tired, kinda feel done but the Mc is just doing it because he has to get out. Pure power of will. It's a bad fight because they're all pretty bad fighters. But it's about how raw the power of will the Mc has.
I think I saw one of your videos some weeks ago and didn't feel like it added anything to the scenes you commented but now your analyses are really pertinent and for any beginner writer are strong advice, so keep up the good work and keep improving mate you're doing tremendous work!
A david vs goliath fight I like is Vetto the Despair vs the Black Bulls in Black Clover, the opponent is clearly stronger than everyone, and the one person who could stand a chance in a 1v1 is occupied, so they have to use their abilites together to win
Old boy being mentioned as a bad fight was something i didn't expect at all. The fight was never intended to be a great fight, where Odaesu can show off his skills. The movie is about him and the antagonists crazy revenge fantasy. Odaesu just did some work out in a room he was captured and locked in for 15 years without any fighting skills. The Hallway where the fight mentioned takes place in was not only very narrow but also wet, and you can even see the thugs slipping on the floor or missing hits due to space and slipping, same with Odesu. On top of that, noone won the fight. Odaesu just managed to get out there alive with how he positioned himself, since noone really wanted to continue to battle as Odaesu is clearly insane, unpredictable and managed to get through the mass of people with a knife stuck in his back. Its one of the best fight scenes in a "realistic" movie for the whole choreography being in one single shot, where the fight in itself is cohesive (in comparison he could have used the Old Boy Remake fight scene as a bad example instead), and realistically not a single person would have been able to get out of Odaesus situation alive. So its more of a David vs. Goliath with Goliath being the group of thugs. Before the fight started, Odaesu telling them the Bloodtype of the guy he tortured is a big characterization point. Him being willing to somehow get through this group, even with a knife stuck in his back, shows how determined he is with his revenge. Its not a big flashy fight, it's intentionally a sloppy uncoordinated mess, and it captures that really well, especially by comparison of the difference in determination of the group of thugs and Odaesu.
As he said, it's both good and bad. It's a great spectacle, and it's close enough to realism that a lot of people buy it, but there's just so many of them within a few steps of the protagonist(armed with a short, blunt weapon) that it doesn't actually work if you think about it. It broke my immersion, and while I know my bar for realism is higher than most, I'm definitely not alone in this. I think if he'd had a sword or long stick that might have improved it a lot, alternatively if the cinematography had hidden just how surrounded he was.
@@korganrocks3995 Yeah, although i just have to disagree with it being good AND bad; I see its more a flaw in the framework he uses to analyze the fights. Although i think its a great tool to use for analyzing battles, it leaves out unrationallity, unpredictabillity and imperfect actors. I would need to watch the fight scene alone in close detail to find the part you mention (thugs few steps from protagonist which are not hitting); but in such a closed space those people risk hitting fellow thugs or risk getting hit by them. Therefor i dont think it breaks immersion. Yeah IF they where 100%ly determined to just kill him, yeah he would have no chance. They could risk self injury and just end it. Fight scenes in movies in general never are realistic. In reality fights just dont look pleasing, people just end up on the ground and try to do as much damage as possible by stabbing for instance, or they end up grappling. But unpredictable grappling wont look good in movies. Therefore straight up realism and believability isnt something i would rank very high as a measurement for a fight scene, aslong as there are no extreme cases of just acting or choreography mistakes (like acting as like taking a hit when the other actor forgot to hit a punch). Real fights with high competence would look like MMA fights basically. So Somewhere the writer needs to include fictional liberties even when trying to write a realistic fight. As in Kung-fu and one Badass actor destroying a group of people looks cool, but that not realistic. And I dont see a way to choreograph an unpredictable and sloppy fight scene intentionally and pull it of better than this. So in conclusion I would say if the movie is primarily about fighting then yeah in this framework you could argue to make fights more of a spectacle. But this misses the point here. Especially 1v1 fights when a group is involved dont make sense if the intention is to showcase a characters strength or to make a fight pleasing. Therefor the context of the fight itself and the intention of the writer needs to be looked at too. So the Framework he uses is definitely good for a lot of genres, and especially for Anime and pure action movies.
@@zephiask1758 The trope of a group of enemies attacking a lone fighter one at a time is something modern audiences are more sensitive to than a few decades ago, so you can't get away with it as easily now. Whether things are realistic are less important than if they seem realistic to the average viewer. If you're goon nr 13 and watch some mysterious dude dispatch half a dozen of your fellow goons with ease, you'd either try to organise a simultaneous charge or get the hell outta there, you wouldn't wait until he's taken out another half dozen and then attack him as if you had any greater chance than the previous dozen mediocre fighters in a 1v1. It works in something like Kill Bill, because by that point the movie has made it very clear that realism isn't on the menu, so just sit back and enjoy the ridiculous spectacle, but in a movie which so far has been fairly realistic, it'd break my immersion. Part of my problem might come from having worked with kids: even kindergarteners realise quite quickly that they don't stand a chance 1v1 whether it's soccer, wrestling or whatever, so they always end up swarming you and winning, so to me it seems unrealistic that adults wouldn't come to the same conclusion.
@@korganrocks3995 That's because they're kids. Adults are a lot more hesitant in that regard. I remember seeing a bunch of footy vids a while back where they pit kids against adults, and the former were a lot more bum-rushy in that regard.
As an aspiring writer, I’m absolutely loving these videos and how you deconstruct fights and analyze their purpose. It’s so simple yet super helpful!! On the topic of fight scenes, one of my favorite fight scenes of all time is Adolin vs the 4 shard bearers in Words of Radiance by Brandon Sanderson. I highly recommend checking it out and it would be super cool to see a breakdown of it or maybe have it be referenced in a future video c: I’m also not sure under what category it would fall onto as it kinda shifts back and forth between two as the dynamics of the battle change.
I think you should probably add another category called eye candy as in fights that aren’t technically that important to the story but are still a welcomed addition due to showcasing cool stuff within a series
@@junova7503 A lot of art that is not made by self-proclaimed artists who want to convey a "deep meaning" is to just look cool, or nice. You don't exactly look at a painting of a landscape and say "ahh yes, I love the darkness of the shadows alluding to the darkness of the artist's heart." That isn't to say that art with intention is bad, in fact, I love art that has hidden meanings for me to uncover, but not all art needs to have a purpose.
@@TotallyTally Art is a means of communication, an expression of ideas and emotions given form. A painting of a landscape, to use your own example, serves to capture a view from the perspective, or the mind, of the artist, and thus communicate with the viewer. A fight scene is a part of a story, which, as art, is intended to communicate with the viewer. A pointless section of the story is like a pointless section of a painting, it should not exist as it serves to distract from and hinder the expression that is art. To put it simply, a pointless scene in a story is not "art", it is a detriment to the art otherwise present.
You claim to love art yet claim "Not all art needs to have a purpose". I implore you to read these two quotes by artists: "If your art doesn't irritate people, you aren't doing your job." - John Cage "Art Should Comfort the Disturbed and Disturb the Comfortable." - Cesar A. Cruz
Great video, I really like how you clarified your point about powerscaling, I had the same questions as that commenter did. About the one-thug-at-a-time problem, I wonder what you think of the Madness Combat animations, I think they do have that problem quite often (the 5.5 episode is most notable for this in my opinion), but the sheer speed of the fight makes it believable most of the time. Also the characterization is quite lackluster? Though it does get better at the newer episodes. Anyway I just can't stop but enjoy the animations and I wanted to hear your opinion on it (even if it's a negative one).
Honestly if anything I was a little disappointed with MC12 because we watched Sanford get completely decimated and exhausted in 11, and now all of a sudden he's mostly back to being a badass killing machine again.
As a superhero nerd and a big fan of the infinity saga of the MCU, that Thanos fight doesn't really bother me. While I think realism has it's place in tv and movies I personally like when some media strays away from that (especially in the superhero genre as I love to see whacky displays of powersets and such even if they don't make the most sense 😂), but you certainly aren't wrong and you bring up great points to think about, even if I don't necessarily agree. Great video and I'm excited to see more from this channel! 🔥
![ลองสุ่มไอโฟน 990 โกงมั้ย? [ โกงมั้ยครับ ep.101 ] | DOM](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/bfsWe0j492k/mqdefault.jpg)
Timestamps:
0:00 Intro
3:26 Gojo VS Jogo
6:00 Tai Lung VS Furious 5
7:46 Dragons VS Armies
10:19 Dae-Su VS Thugs
13:05 Thanos VS Avengers & Guardians
16:18 Saitama VS Boros
I think if you set these in the description the video will actually create in vid timestamps, not sure exactly how it works, great video!
@@PrinceVoiderit does
Along the lines of Dae-Su vs the thugs, I was actually thinking about the Netflix Daredevil series, specifically the halfway fight early in season 1, and I was hoping it would be here because I was curious about your thoughts, I actually need to go rewatch it myself, I don't remember specifics but I think it avoids the one-thug-at-a-time thing until it's justified because Daredevil has beaten the thugs to the point only one of them can stand up to fight him at a time 😂
Lots of fly swatting and David Vs Goliath fights in Ghost in the Shell, Stand Alone Complex has some of the best and worse stakes in fight scenes.
Basically every fight from the World Trigger manga is a masterclass in strategy, and is usually a david v golaiath. One thing I love is that its never just the heroes who are smart. No one ever loses due to being an idiot, just by the opponent having a more thought out plan. I think the first fight in the B Rank Wars arc is a great fight to illustrate this since it requires very little context to understand, making it good for making a point in a 20-30 minute video.
Note that the anime is awful so reading it will probably be farm more enjoyable and interesting.
"One thug at a time" works well if the choreography makes it clear that the fly swatter is maneuvering to make his opponents face him one at a time. For example, if he chooses a chokepoint for the fight, or stays mobile so the group has to keep chase and he keeps singling out opponents. That's how you beat multiple opponents in real life, after all.
In the Witcher 3 game there's a castle ruins full of bandits I always tackle way too early in order to get a specific reward, and it has literally dozens of bandits, with reinforcements spawning in, and since I'm so underleveled I basically die in two hits, making it impossible to survive unless I use the terrain to my advantage. From being a real pain in the ass, it has grown to be my favorite fight in the entire game, because I feel like a goddamn musketeer fighting my way around a castle, finding choke points in doorways and on stairs, forced to actually use my spells creatively to stay alive instead of just using the same few trusty spells in the same way in every fight.
Any movie fight where someone is facing more than three opponents who don't all rush him makes me roll my eyes so hard.
@@korganrocks3995
Eh depends, it gets difficult to swarm a guy all at once after a certain point, because you are more likely to hit your allies than the little left of your opponent, and different weapons clear different amounts of space near a person- though in most cases it usually makes sense to form a ring around the foe even if you are not actively engaging.
Of course most things in film are exxagerated to the point of breaking suspension of belief, but the inversion of a flawed or false picture is still seldom the completly correct one
@@No-longer1 This is why the lone fighter having a blade(preferably a long one) makes this kind of thing much more realistic, because no one wants to get too close to it. A lone fighter wielding a blunt weapon or no weapon at all is easily taken down by several people rushing him at once.
Whether this actually is what happens in real fights when a single person is outnumbered doesn't actually matter for the realism; all that matters is what the average viewer finds realistic. Most people have not participated in or seen fights between one person and multiple opponents in reality, so while we might be way off, we'll still be bothered by the perceived unrealistic scene.
It also works if he's intimidating enough to make people think twice before lunging at him.
in a D&D encounter one time my character's party encountered an enemy who was way too strong for all of us at once. so my character cast shape earth on the ledge under his feet to trip him up so we could RUN!
14:30 In general defense of the "waiting to use your full power" trope, it actually does make realistic sense when you think of it terms of how easy it is to use some of your strength vs all of it. Why drop a nuke on every opponent, when a few punches will do? Once they start showing a chance of actually winning, though, that's when the cost becomes outweighed by the possibility of actually losing the fight, and that's when it makes sense to use your full power.
It also does work for characterisation, specifically to display a character’s pride. A good example of this would be Emiya Shirou vs Gilgamesh in Fate: Unlimited Blade Works, where Gilgamesh explicitly states that he would consider using his full power to be a loss, because that’s the standard he must hold himself to as a king. He loses because he doesn’t use his strongest weapon, but it doesn’t feel unsatisfying at all because it’s entirely realistic for him to do so.
Thanos also works in that context, because he’s an egomaniac and equally has his pride to uphold. He takes his armour off at the beginning of the movie for exactly that reason, he doesn’t believe anything is a threat to him with the stones. And when he does almost lose the gauntlet, he panics and immediately starts spamming his strongest attacks, exactly how you’d expect someone in that situation to do.
For Thanos specifically, he has a great reverence for peoples will to fight/survive. It's why he instantly fell in love with the orphaned Gamora. Thanos believes in doing whatever is necessary to survive, both individually, and as a society. This is reflected in how he raised his adopted daughters, and then epitomized in his sacrifice of Gamora for the soul stone.
Thanos could incapacitate his opponents in one blow, but he wants to see their fighting spirit, their tenacity.
If you play video games you definitely understand this. Why waste your nuke spell on a level 1 goblin? He only does 1 spell of damage and you need this in a more serious situation.
Yeah it depends on the situation. The trope is definitely overused in anime, and to a lesser extent in superhero media, but sometimes you really do need to hold back. Captain Commander Yamamoto from Bleach, for example, can burn the entire world to a crisp in like a few minutes by using his Bankai (for the uninitiated, Bankai is a powerup in Bleach that is essentially the trump card of every character who possesses one).
@@KLIXORthe Also, he actually *likes* fighting. " _C'mon!_ "
The team were fighting to keep him off-balance, so they could all get the drop on him at once, and probably so their powers and abilities wouldn't interfere with each other. Everything they were doing was to stun Thanos so they could get the glove off.
The opening of the Kung Fu Panda Bridge fight is very cool visual storytelling. Ti Lung switches to walking on the support rope, forcing Tigress to shift her balance while he remains collected and relaxed. Even before the fight begins, he’s already in control and throwing his opponents off their rhythem
great observation
He became a her apparently
Now that's Power
What I like is Ti Lung Doesn't take a fighting stance ever. He only performs the moves when needed when possible.
He changes the bridge and adapts his posture. While Tigress is stiff and sticks to the formal stance that isn't possible on a single rope. She struggles trying to keep on the flat boards to keep her posture.
Showing in a cool way the message of the movie, but now it's the bad guy whose teaching it to those who refuse to change.
@@millo7295 How dare you typo correct me!!!!!!!!
(Fair observation)
@@magnusm4 Something I want to note is that as far as I can remember there is only one other fighter who takes a formal stance, Shifu. This shows how Tigress hasn't fully developed her skills for herself and copies her master rather then Tai lung who rejects his master and uses the style he made himself.
5:00 The explaining bit caught my eye because Gege made jjk have a GREAT way around the cliché of characters explaining their techniques for no reason. In jjk universe, you can make a binding vow that can make your technique output stronger if you explain how it works.
And sometimes it's the narrator who explains the abilities which tbh i really enjoy. The way the narrator phrases the explanation in such an articulated way feels like it's explaining some kind of holy art piece. For example the narrator explaining Sukuna's domain with the malevolent shrine theme playing was beautiful.
@@AddinRoyale The narrator makes it feel like you're watching a documentary about the grand history of the world.
I know they do the same thing for Hunter x Hunter
@@micanikko something something properties of rubber and gum
@@Punsmaster2 Oh you mean how bungee gum has the properties of both rubber and gum?
Another thing that makes the Saitama/Boros fight interesting is how it turns the antagonist into basically the underdog: as the fight goes on, the focus slowly shifts from Saitama, who’s having an easy time as always, to Boros who’s really giving his all and even enjoying this surprising challenge that suddenly fell into his hands. Every time Saitama tanks his moves, or resists one of his power-ups, Boros doesn’t feel fear, or rage, but excitement and fulfillment.
All of this helps making an ultimately one-note, derivative character more endearing and memorable, to the point one may even root for him, a little bit
yup, goes to show how flyswatting has such a strong impact on characterization
Yes! Even the music follows Boros through his beats and transformations, Boros is fully the main character of that fight
I've ended up saving that episode in my video collection. I go back to it from time to time it's a great episode. The part where Saitama starts to show more interest as Boros survies a Punch is also a nice touch. The destructive showcase of power that everyone else outside of their fight witnesses also help to sell it
@VoidBringer_98 the sparring vs Genos was almost as great, and exceptional when it came to visuals
The duality of these two in the fight is a perfection. In the end, when Boros recognizes Saitama holding back, and you see that shot of our One Punch Man walking away, it doesn't feel like his victory. Before, there was this dream of his, when he actually struggled against some made-up underground monsters. And he was HAPPY.
Here, it's made a reality, but flipped - yes, Boros dies, but he also has the most fun in ages, the only thing that he craved. And Saitama KNOWINGLY give him that. Didn't hold back because HE wanted to have some fun, no - he is in the usual state of apathy. Instead, he did so, by recognizing himself in Boros and giving HIM the fulfillment that he wanted/needed so much. The weirdly fucked-up act of ultimate understanding and kindness.
This one fight does so much work for character of Saitama in such a short time, it's actually masterful.
About Thanos not using his best abilities right away (and about that trope in general). I think there are generally three reasons for why a character wouldn't try to just end the fight right away:
1. They don't think they need it/they don't think it's worth their time. If the "swatter" doesn't think that the flies are really anything to be concerned about in the slightest, they are probably going to start by just swatting them, rather than dropping a nuke on them. Maybe it's to conserve energy, or limit collateral damage, or even just so that their fights don't feel boring to them. You don't always use your ultimate ability when fighting fodder enemies in games, do you?
2. They want to play with their food. You mentioned not liking this trope but like, there are definitely characters who like to give their "flies" false hope by prolonging the fight artificially. Think about the "ooo good one, you almost had me there!" type of villain, as the heroes get more and more exhausted and desperate.
3. They just want the fight to be interesting. This is sort of a fusion of 1 and 2, but sometimes they don't go all out right away because they want to see what the other person can do or treat it like a sparring match. Think about the training fight with Saitama and Genos in season 1. Go back and watch and see the wonder and awe in Saitama's eyes whenever Genos does something cool. Some characters want to fight just because they enjoy interacting with interesting opponents.
With regards to the last fight shown here, that being the Saitama V Boros fight, there's also another layer to the whole thing that feeds into characterisation. Boros gives a monologue preceding the one he was interrupted in, where he explains he spent 20 years flying across the entire universe seeking a worthy opponent. While Saitama never did any searching by conquering planets, he does fully understand the boredom Boros faces, so him not fighting back and even asking "Are you done?" mid-monologue adds to his characterisation that he's deliberately giving Boros a chance to fight at full power to give him that thrill Saitama himself thinks he'll never find. That very characterisation is the reason the fight goes on as long as it does, and yet it still works because Boros is using new powers and transforms twice within the relatively small space of 12 or so minutes.
wow yea this is a great point
Viewers are always waiting for Saitama rival during the show. And Boros fight really gives them (hope) that "this is it". But yeah, it's actually just heavily masked fly swatting
You just don't expect this guy survive THIS MUCH damage. But Saitama just doesn't care😂
Part of what makes it spectacular is the sheer spectacle of it. The manga is exceedingly well drawn, which sells the sheer scale of carnage that the fighters (Mainly Boros) inflict: blowing through thousands of decks, ripping hull plating, smashing Saitama so hard he hits the moon, and that beautiful contrast of how the cloud cover is completely spilt. All that just doesn't affect our character in any meaningful way.
Sure, the fight has zero tension as Satamina clearly isn't giving his all, even though his normal series of attacks are pretty basic and has all the energy of "well I guess I better finish it now because this is getting out of hand. Oh, and I'll throw one punch with intent to kill to finish the fight". But every panel is drawn gloriously which sells the sheer scale of the conflict that we can't help but be entertained. Plus we had the S-class heroes build up just how damn challenging Boro's minions are, so we are fully sold on how big a deal this fight is, just the protagonist is just too strong to even care. That sets the stakes that isn't exceeded until much later in the manga.
Yes!
@@LaserTractor anyone that understands one punch man knows that boros had zero chance to do anything.
Regarding the Old Boy hallway fight scene, I think it does it well. for starters, unlike normal fights, this takes place in a small hallway, and as we see a lot of the thugs have sticks and weapons you gotta swing. They need room to do that, and even more to swing and not hit their own allies. That kind of forced positioning and decision making can lead to people standing there and waiting. Second, it's not like a Steven Segal movie where he tirelessly takes out 20 dudes one at a time. The entire time our protag is getting more and more tired. It makes some sense to wait to go in if the guy before you might tire the other guy out.
Lastly, I think this works super well because it's all one single shot with no cuts. Flooding the screen with all the guys at once would cover the fight itself and prevent us from even seeing what's going on, including the knife stab. The whole fight is done with that camera in mind.
Was about to call this video out for plagiarism until I saw it was literally the same guy who uploaded the other video XD
@@AbyssPriestess hahaha welcome back
I just had the exact same thing, I subbed so I don't forget
SAME
haha silly
LOL I am glad I wasn't the only person who thought this hahaha
14:27 "I always wonder why people don't use their strongest attack first"
- Sans Tzu, the art of turn-based war
Edit : ok guys, it was just a Sans meme, you can stop proving it wrong in the replies.
I feel like the best reason for this is that a strong attack is usually exhausting. If you use it on any random mook, you might not be able to use it on an actual threat that shows up later. Additionally, you might not be aware of your opponent's power, so you build up to your strongest attack to see what it takes to take this person out.
For examplez if you play a game, do you use your ultimate ability on any random enemy, or do you save them for bosses or when you are really in a pickle?
The only way where you can safely use your most powerful attack at the start is when you know the strength of your opponent(s) and know it is worth it to use it.
In most competitive games, where your power is unknown it is to save your trump cards for two situations. First one is if you are about to lose. The second is if you force your opponent into a situation it would be almost impossible to survive it. Games like Magic the Gathering basically revolves around this strategy. If you play your hand too early, you are much, much easier to counter as they know exactly what to expect if it doesn't defeat them.
@@FalconAvian Another facet is if you stop looking at battles and shift focus to the whole war. Showing an enemy your full power even if you could have won without it gives them the opportunity to prepare against it in the next fight. Using it when the opponent is in a compromised spot or by using the additional surprise that comes with it when using it later causes additinoal benefits. So while many shows use it to try and make a fight interesting (and at times failing at that because of it) there can also be strategy behind it.
Because you have to fill up a combo or special meter or something like that first (for some rarely explained reason,) and it's always empty at the start of each battle. So you gotta essentially just waste time with basic attacks to fill the meter before you get to eventually use the moves that actually do enough damage to matter.
cough Xenoblade series cough cough
In boxing, jyou don't start strong as You may leave yourself Open and lose steam early, and generally good defense beats your Best punches everytime.
Going all out at first is a strategy if You KNOW FOR A FACT that your rival is better than You and would destroy You on a long fight
My favourite fly swatting scene that comes to mind is Gojo vs Jogo, Hanami, Choso, and Mahito. The fact that they have a reasonable plan to counter Gojo, are taking advantage of the terrain and all of their abilities to the fullest, and yet Gojo still brutally decimates them is amazing to watch. Especially when he manages to focus down Hanami and fully finish him off, too often in fights are characters slapped around and left until they can get back up. It's the first time we see Gojo go all-out and actually have to exert himself, and it's got great characterizations for all characters involved, great strategy from the weaker side, and great visuals and animation to back it all up. Truly an instant classic.
Gojos one of the best fly swatters around
Hanami is a muscle mommy
I think this fight is not a fly swatting fight because in the end they win, they don't kill him but they manage to capture him because of Kenjaku. And this results in the escalation of the Shibuya incident.
@@lucasrodrigo2051 Yeah, you have a point, although I think Hanami may beg to differ lol. Either way an awesome fight scene
I'd argue it's more of a David Vs Goliath fight due to the outcome and because the weaker side employs a lot of strategy to try to beat the stronger side but i digress
Just because the hallway scene doesn't fit your neat categorization doesn't detract from the magnum opus of cinema that scene was. That scene was pure art.
It was alright. It made a good foundation, but it wasn't really all that crazy on its own. What matters is that future media noticed the concept because of it and improved upon it over time. The daredevil tv show is one good example. I think "The Raid"s take was the real magnum opus of the trope
@@IndyColaTV I could agree. A big thing I like about the oldboy scene is the fact it was done in one take
@@IndyColaTV Oldboy was 20 years ago. Standing on the shoulders of giants type of thing.
Humans loooove to put things in boxes. It's part of why I approach these videos with an open mind, but also a grain of salt.
I think another perfect example of fly swatting from One Punch Man comes even before Boros: The Deep Sea King fight. He quickly becomes the biggest threat we've seen so far in the show, the stakes are quickly set that he can (and will) destroy every human on that and every other city, we see every character struggle in the show so far fight with their all only to fail, it develops Genos character because he chooses to almost sacrifice himself for a random girl (before this fight, he didn't even care for civilian casualties) and shows Mumen Rider (a "nobody" without power who does as much as he always can and more to help) try to take on Deep Sea while giving a moving speech, only to fail completely afterwards. It's a fly swatting in the villain's favour.
And at the end, when Saitama finally arrives, they pull the rug from under the spectator feet, and the fight's over before Deep Sea King can even land a punch. The fly swatting reverses, and then we see how everyone cheers for Saitama, but dismisses everyone else's sacrifice just because they couldn't defeat the monster. So he discredits himself saying it was because of everyone else and he'll steal the credit. So the glory goes back to those who almost gave their lives for the fight, even if it means he'll be hated by everyone, because he doesn't care about his image, his name or his "brand". He genuinely wants to help not because he'll get something for it, but because he has the power to do so. And this fight shows how far he's wiling to go, sacrificing his public image for the sake of everyone else's
The fight's a double fly swatting that feels interesting, develops two character, leaves you with a better understanding of the protagonist and never overstays it's welcome since it ends in literally a single punch
Personally I don’t think that saitama “doesn’t care” about his image. He cares just a little bit. We see him get frustrated during the meteor event, the hammer head gang jackin his bald look, and caped baldy is not a name he really likes. It’s just that when push comes to shove he prioritizes other people over his own well being.
@@yukii381it would be better to say that it isn't his priority. He cares about it but won't let it get in the way of helping people, good deals, his friends or having fun as a hero.
Mumen Rider is the greatest hero of all. He is just A Guy, no powers, no strength, but he never backs away from heroic ideals, and will absolutely 100% do everything he can to help others.
Battle against the Deep Sea King was such a good arc.
Even Saitama was feeling down because how easily he defeated it, reinforcing his depression, yet he pushed through and made the most heroic decision: give the credit to the rest of the team.
Deep Sea King was never the biggest threat in the show. Carnage Kabuto, Vaccine Man, and Beefcake smash him. You're also wrong that Genos didn't care about civilian casualties, his whole motivation is avenging civilian casualties and when he first showed up he checked for casualties before firing his ultimate attack as Mosquito Girl. Is this even a real post or was it AI generated? Unless you're just THAT bad at analysing media.
The Oldboy fight also has the added element of being in a hallway, if he fought them on a parking lot he'd definitely lose but the hallway makes it more even.
I think the better David vs Goliath fights are the ones where David's goal isn't to defeat Goliath, just secure an objective that is within their reach when outright victory would be impossible for them.
Tien from Dragonball Z isn't really allowed to win any fights after Dragonball given the universal power scaling being a joke for humans, but he's able to hold Semiperfect Cell off for a while to allow other characters to escape by using a move that could never kill Cell, but it can push him deeper and deeper into a crater so that he can't get up and pursue his targets. Tien burns through his own life energy, showing he's putting way more into this than Cell is to close the power gap a bit while Cell needs energy to still actually win a fight when he gets out, and Tien's doing it to cause a disruption way above his weight class rather than outright victory. There's no question at any point that Cell could kill Tien, but rather the drama is in whether or not Tien can successfully stall Cell before burning out his own life or slipping up and dying to Cell. The audience doesn't know the outcome the same way they do when weaker protagonist must defeat stronger antagonist for narrative conclusion, as Tien can simply die and the narrative moves on to the obviously stronger characters who are going to be the real battle, but it kept our attention to see how it went down.
thats a good point and i have some examples in mind where victory is not necessarily about defeating the opponent
This was the first thing I thought about when I read the title- instances when the stakes are not tied to who wins the fight, but some other aspect of it. "Sure, character A isn't going to beat character B, but can A keep B distracted long enough for C to escape with the macguffin?"
Actually, that Vader scene from Star Wars: Rogue One is a great example of this.
"I don't have to win, I just have to make you lose"
@@Squampopulous I really like the idea of alternate win cons, soooo if you can make a video about that I'd enjoy itttttt
Other examples are allen vs viltrumites and rengoku vs akaza. Both of them loose,but got their objetive
For the first Thanos fight, I got the impression that these characters (most of whom only met shortly prior) were not good at working together and had to learn by receiving the beat down, which would be a humbling experience to the usually solo superheros.
When critiquing a fight, I wouldn't call out just the writers. A good fight needs the director, fight choreographer, visual effects supervisor, and the write all working together to be the best it can be. Great video!
Three of them were teammates. Two of them were also teammates. Strange was the only hero there who wasn't with a pal.
It wasn't about humbling. They kept Thanos off-balance, but the second he realized they might actually win, he uncorked the bottle.
"But this is a flyswatting video. And unfortunately for the furious five, they are the flies."
✒️🔥🔥🔥
hahaha
"More like...Furious Flies".
cringe
@@Shitposting_IHMNyou in the wrong comment section to be talkin bout cringe 😂 let folks have fun, stop makin yourself not have fun, its not good for your health
@@Halo-lg7rq you're the reason Trump won
5:10 Small correction here: This isn't the first time a domain expansion is used in jjk. Sukuna used a domain against the finger bearer a few episodes ago in episode 4. However, this IS the first time that they explain how it works and show that other characters can use it aside from Sukuna. Sukuna's domain expansion was meant to leave the viewer curious as to what it was and how it worked, then it leads to this episode where both Jogo and Gojo use a domain expansion and gojo explains it to both yuji and us, the audience. Haven't watched the rest of the video since I wanted to point this out but it is VERY entertaining and informative as of now! Keep up the good work 👍
🤓🤓
@@hotsauce2939 "🤓🤓"🤓🤓
I feel like there's a handful of good situations for one-at-a-time fights and that fight scene actually makes sense to me. It's a fairly narrow hallway with a bunch of street thugs who probably didn't discuss strategy in advance. A lot of them are wielding weapons they use in wide-swinging arcs, which don't work well in narrow spaces. The dude they're fighting also has a weapon. So, naturally, it takes a second for everyone to get up to speed and they only work well together once or twice. Some of them are more aggressive than others, some hang back because they're worried about catching a stray from a friend, etc. I think it was about as close to realistic as it could get and still have the good guy win.
Agreed, I didnt watch the full fight but it does seem to have that accounted for, even if not 100% realistic.
One at a time is how 1vX are won in real life, because good positionning, friendly fire and untrained cohesiveness allows to force successive 1v1s. Go look at fights, go look at weapon sparring. One at a time is far from an automatic sin.
That being said, what was shown was the most unwinnable situation I have ever seen. All his "good exemples" had the 1 in the 1vX be clearly physically superior in an open field, so with way better odds.
If he ever lost suspension of disbelief, it's not because of one at a time, it's because the guy won at all.
@@glatykoffi6672 Yeah, irl the dude is toast against, like, less than half their number.
I think the other thing that gives it a pass on for me as a viewer is the fact it's done in one continuous shot. Just makes me respect the scene even more.
The way One Punch Man uses a lot of its fight is the characterization of those _around_ Saitama. At the beginning, only a very small handful of characters even have a fraction of understanding just how truly powerful he is. As it goes on, more characters realize that Saitama can probably handle most threats. However, the Sea King episode puts in to context: what is the point of having other heroes if one person does it all? What truly makes someone heroic? It has character moments for a surprising amount of people. An A class hero overestimating his abilities, an S class hero trying to redeem himself, an S tier villain realizing he's outclassed and would rather live to fight another day, heroes of various skill levels realizing the strength in numbers, an S class hero who has the villain on the ropes but chooses to sacrifice himself to prevent an innocent death, an A class hero who goes full mask off about vanity, and *THE BEST HERO OF THEM ALL* : a man with no special skills standing up for what is right knowing full well he doesn't stand any chance of winning.
I love how this happens in Baki
When Baki fights someone, it's like "How is he gonna beat this guy" because Baki usually goes for opponents stronger than him
When Yujiro fights someone, it's still like "How's he gonna beat this guy" because despite winning every fight in like ten seconds, Yujiro never beats his enemies with a normal punch. It's usually something insane like ripping a dudes face off with one hand or pushing them through an entire convenience store
Typical baki stuff
"Alright how far is he taking it this time?"
No way you mention Baki fights as an example of good fights 😭😭
Bro Ryu Kaioh was crazy STILL trying to fight Yujiro after getting his face ripped off. Mans had to get roundhouse kicked in his skinless face and had Retsu begging before he gave up
@@onlysongs1607 I mean, there is a reason why Baki is as popular as it is.
The 1v1 nature of the oldboy hallway fight is so easily forgiven due to a couple things.
First: It's in a hallway, that really limits how many people can come for him at once.
Second: As the fight goes on, the thugs are clearly scared and don't want to fight and get their ass kicked.
dont forget they're also tried, once adrenaline turns off trust me you start to feel everything
Madara vs Shinobi Alliance is another iconic fly swatting scene. After his like 500 chapter build up
The second meteor 😭😭
Madara VS Shinobi Alliance. *[Upgrade]*
Madara VS 5 Kage. *[Upgrade]*
Madara VS backstabby black old man. *[Go back! Go back!]*
Bro I was looking for this comment
@@ultimaxkom8728you mean backstabby old grandma?
Black zetsu will of old kaguya@@3dcomrade
The main flaw in powerscaling is that most (like 99.9%) of authors don't write fights in accordance to what some nerds on the internet calculated. Storytelling/writing just works differently and the plot and character arcs are in most cases way more important to the outcome of a fight than what the combatans are theoratically capable of.
So it's fine if you just do it for fun but some get really obsessive about it and get outright mad when fights don't play out to their expectatoins.
right
Ikr I some times do power scaleing for a bit of fun but like it's just fictional characters from different franchises for I know me and the other person I'm talking with both be wrong
Referring to your invested audience as "some nerds on the internet" is an indicator that you're likely to miss opportunities to improve your storytelling. In a worse scenario, you may be failing to connect with the majority of your audience. They were actively following your story until it ripped a rug from under them in such a manner that it left them feeling angry, making it unintentionally more memorable than plots and arcs and other things they were paying attention to up to that point. If anger wasn't the emotion you intended to evoke, maybe you can do better. This is not a flaw of powerscaling at all, it's an indication that there's a passionate audience out there who care about every aspect of your story. Would you rather your story be ignored and never discussed?
@@smokelingersI would say this has less to do with power scaling than with quality of writing. My primary example of that has to do with DC comics and when you have things like Batman vs Superman. Obviously suoerman is stronger than batman, there is no question, but in a lot of scenarios batman wins due to prior planning. The issue comes from less whether or not the power scaling makes sense but whether or not the fight is well written. If a fight is well written then it doesn’t matter which character wins because it can be explained convincingly why that character won. If it is poorly written then if the character who appears weaker wins it feels unsatisfying and unrealistic.
@@jamesbonds8287 I agree. There are believable ways to write extremely powerful characters getting their butt whooped, outsmarted, etc. I do understand the OPs point that it can be fine to prioritize entertainment value over realistic or believable scenarios. It's funny when Storm Troopers miss at point blank. I just didn't like the way they justified it as if any criticism can only come from no-life nerds online.
16:04 Thanos doesnt want to kill them, he just wants the time stone. Him sparing them after he gets the stone makes perfect sense
thanos' main goal is to wipe out half the universe, and if i were him i would probably kill the avengers in order to achieve this goal lol
@@Squampopulous they are stranded in Titan without a fighting chance. What need is there to kill them? Thanos couldnt have expected endgame
Thanos is pretty arrogant when you think about. He thought and knew there was no way they’d bounce back from that, and in the end when he died on Titan he didn’t care because he did what he needed to do.
@@alex2005z at risk of sounding stupid (I haven't seen the movie), if you plan on killing half the universe, there's no reason not to start with a couple guys in front of you, right?
@@Squampopulous I think he wanted the stones to decide who lives or dies or something. Plus he is "Honest" about the way he does thing and he does keep deals
Not mentioned with the Gojo vs Jogo fight is that exposition fits into the actual mechanics of JJK's power system. The Binding Vow. Giving up something in return for an upgrade in your technique. A sorceror explaining to their opponent about how their power works gives up the element of surprise, allowing the opponent possibly finding a work around but boosting that power's effectiveness in return.
I dont really think it was like that. I think Gojo was really just screwing with Jogo because he knew he could never lose that 1 v 1. Which funnily enough puts into perspective just how similar Gojo and Sukuna are and i think Gege did it intentionally. Having Gojo toy with Jogo in an almost lighthearted manner but still being brutally honest about jogo being weak in comparison. Then sukuna chose to show jogo the difference in their ability by beating it into his very being. Gojo is really apathetic about being the strongest and sukuna has a need to exert his strength on others.
I'm glad the algorithm is boosting your videos again man you deserve it
thanks :)
My personal favourite approach is the One Punch Man "matter of course" flyswatting. Character is in the middle of doing something, gets interrupted or attacked, swats away the attacker and goes back to what they were doing without breaking their train of thought. Rather like swatting a literal fly while dining outside and holding a conversation. One might remark on being annoyed at the fly, but it doesn't turn into an actual fight.
For David vs Goliath fights, I >BEG OF YOU< to use some Hunter x Hunter fight. Doesn't matter which. It can be Gon vs Genthru, it can be Killua vs the Chimera Ant siblings, it can be Meruem vs Netero, it can be... SO MANY of the fights in that show. That show is the KING of David vs Goliath fights and your video on the topic will NOT be complete without it. It's also the inspiration for JJK.
@@AR15ORIGINAL you can 100% expect a hxh fight 👍
Those fights really just come down to a trap which the other caracther didnt look out for. Its a one move trap.
@Squampopulous let's goooo!!! HxH is the king of David vs Goliath
Jujutsu tech students againtst the forest curse was a fly swatting until the arrival of besto friendos at which point it became a david and goliath battle
Poor david had a real hard time managing the boogie woogie and yuji "Black flash mashinegun" itadori
HunterxHunter also does something interesting for flyswatting, in that is characterizing the loser and failing to use their nen to the fullest, as with hisoka vs kastro or Morelle vs Cheetu.
As a budding author who struggles with writing fight scenes, I'm definitely super invested. You handle this topic, it seems, with competence and experience! Definitely staying tuned.
I think a major things with Thanos is that he's very steadfast and focused on his self-righteous mission and doesn't view himself as any kind of tyrant or murderer, his moves tend to go just as far as necessary for optimal results, so while it may have been optimal to try and incapacitate everyone from the start he doesn't really behave like the antagonist until people insist on getting in his way. In the end, everyone will face off against chance when he achieves his goal.
If I was a thug in the hallway fight scene I would avoid attacking when there's others are attacking because I don't wanna get hit
you sound like a bad thug then haha ;)
@@Squampopulous Funny joke, but irl a 1vX is about forcing 1v1s with positionning and friendly fire being a thing. Cohesiveness is nothing innate.
@@SquampopulousI'm not really a good thug if I accidentally sock my homies behind the head, or am I?
@@Squampopulous i think you also forgot that in that scene the fight took place in a tight hallway, making it so that there was very little room for them to attack all at once.
@@glatykoffi6672 yep the key to winning or at least surviving ganking in real life is to force the opponents to a situation that makes their number advantage useless
7:28 Was not expecting that lmaoo
I got coffee up my nose thanks to that.
😂😂
what were u not expecting? nothing is happening at 8:02
@@jessebeegee Yah idk how i messed that up, meant to type 7:28. I'm dyslexic clearly
Old Boy: you're missing out that this is happening in a narrow corridor preventing them to all attack at the same time. You also probably got confused by the side view which is only a cinematic view as opposed to what is really happening in the movie and some actors might be stepping a bit out of where they should have stayed when they all attack at the same time. As for 20 guys attacking at the same time, try it with 19 of your friends armed with a baseball bat vs a moving piñata and you'll see that it requires crazy coordination if you don't want to hit each others bats, hands, arms and face. Everyone is hesitating and scared of their teammates who could hit them by accident.
Old boy being mentioned as a bad fight was something i didn't expected at all.
The fight was never intended to be a great fight, where Odesu can show off his skills. The movie is about him and the antagonists crazy revenge fantasy. Odesu just did some work out in a room for years on end without any fighting skills. The Hallway where the fight mentioned takes place in was not only very narrow but also wet, and you can even see the thugs slipping on the floor or missing hits due to space and slipping, same with Odesu.
On top of that, noone won the fight. Odesu managed to get out there alive, since noone really wanted to continue to battle as Odesu is clearly insane, unpredictable and managed to get through the mass of people.
Its one of the best fight scenes in cinema for the whole choreography being in one single shot, where the fight in itself is cohesive (in comparison he could have used the Old Boy Remake fight scene as a bad example instead), and realistically not a single person realistically would have been able to get out of Odesus situation alive
Perfectly said. I also made a comment on this but yours is much more concise. The whole video’s credibility sort of went down for me when somehow one of the greatest 1vX scenes in film history is being slandered like this.
Want an example of an actual dogshit scene? The Oldboy American remake fight scene. That is clearly what the video should have referenced.
Yeah his analysis of the Old Boy fight scene was honestly terrible and it made him lose all credibility
@@sovereignreclaimer you're so right about the remake! I couldn't finish it. So I don't know if at the end his love interest was also his daughter and if he stays with her
yea, but it doesn't takes 100000iq to say "lets take him 5 guys at the time"
so shut it boomer
I think the one thug at a time trope is one thing that can also be done right too. I think it’s done well in both examples you showed. It’s hard to coordinate an attack with a team that’s just put together. You have to watch out for the guys on your side accidentally hurting you on top of who your against
An oddly nuanced take on what makes good and bad lopsided fights? Did not know this was the content I craved so badly.
Nice! I remember discussing the Old Boy hall fight with a friend a few years back and not being able to articulate my dislike as well as you did here. Your classification system and names are immediately helpful for any such discussion.
Really enjoying the videos, definitely like the perspective you bring to the table
@@BattleGodorMRH glad you like em!
I agree with this video, and thanks for making the clarification about power scaling. I didn't watch your other video you mentioned yet, but the clarification was probably necessary to prevent a false portrayal of power scaling. The people who get too sensitive about it and become narrative blind from it ruin its reputation.
No mention of Saitama's literal failure at literal fly-swatting (Ok, mosquito)?
LMFAOOO
Depends on the mosquito, one definitely got got
One thing to make fights more interesting is alternative objectives.
e.g. Gon doesn't need to defeat Hisoka, he just needs to take his badge/land a good punch
A fight can be interesting if each party has a different victory condition.
very true
@@Squampopulous Also, some things you didn't talk about with Boros:
At the end of the first ep saitama has a dream where he fights opponents that can actually fight him, and there's a moment where we see his stylised heartbeat to show his excitement. Just before Boros' final attack, we see a colour-inverted version of the same heartbeat from Boros. Saitama fought Boros like he did in order to give meaning to his life, because he related to his boredom. Their characters have strong parallels, and it's more thematic than most people think.
Speaking of Hunter X Hunter and alternative objectives, the fly swatting fight between Gon and Hanzo is interesting for exactly this reason. Here, the fly actually wins, because he completes his objective, while the fly swatter doesn't.
@@MrSlothJunior But he still gets comprehensively swatted which keeps it from being david v goliath.
@@someguy4405 Yeah, definitely. The fight itself is an overwhelming loss.
In Old Boy, they were in a pretty narrow hallway, making coming at him more than one at time harder.
I'm in the process of writing a campaign for some friends in a D&D game and one thing I have planned out down the line is a "reverse jump moment" where the party gets their ass beat by the big bad. This video has given me some great pointers for when that fight happens.
these vids are so entertaining and also informative for creating good characters and fight scenes! thanks much
@@arsileyoutube I’m really glad you enjoy them :)
Flyswatting when used properly is also kind of the "Hypeman" for all the fight categories. It's not needed all the time, but when used as a "show don't tell" it really helps set the bar and anticipation of other fights. A good David Goliath Fight feels even better when you have actually seen how much of a threat the Goliath is and how much effort is needed from the characters in order to win. Same with Toss Up and All Star fights as you know it will be a spectacular clash based on what you have seen before. Even when the tables turn in a Fly Swatter fight where the one being swatted overcomes and ends up doing the swatting, really highlighting both how far the character has come both in the instance and compared to the entire setting. A good example is Tylong because even though by itself him vs Po is an amazing fight both visually and for characterization, it's further expanded upon with the audience seeing the fight vs the furious five or the prison break since now before the fight there is the anticipation that Po is gonna have his work cut out for him, and the payoff how far he has come when he wins. Another good example is Saitama. Yes for the most part the fight is decided before it even starts, making Saitama the flyswatter, but with Saitama's character the fun comes from the "what if" sitting in the back of the minds of the audience. Boros was extremely powerful and framed in a way that at the start he not only did he survive a punch, something we havn't seen before, but actually looked like he was doing something vs Saitama, and the hype grew to "omg could this be THE fight?". Thats a big reason Garou really well liked and is another great example if you ever get around to watching the second season or reading the manga. Not only does he pretty much fall into every fight category at some point but with how many powerful characters there is in one punch man it is both satisfying seeing him get flyswatted knowing he still has a way to go, or do the flyswatting knowing how far he has come.
Idk if this would count as a toss up or a david-goliath but the Tanjiro vs Rui fight would be great imo. I love when fights show the conviction of the "david" in that tanjiro was willing to decapitate rui even if hed be slashed to ribbons.
If not this fight itd be cool for you to include a fight in which the "david" has overwhelming conviction, that shit gets me every time.
Love the vids man keep it up
thanks for the support, i will definitely consider that fight
Personally my man I like how you conduct yourself during these videos it's very Informational and also has your own personal ideas which I like that you highlight that because you want to make it known that some of this is your thoughts and opinions or there During fighting stuff are related to the topic Someone who works with some storytelling elements in my own wy this is very helpful and formal thank you,( A random person in the DND community)
The start of Deadpool and Wolverine is a good example.
Been loving this channel. I don’t know how far into development you are for the David and Goliath fights, but one movie fight you should def include is How to Train Your Dragon and the climatic battle against the big dragon. Not only do we see throughout the battle a bunch of strategies used by the riders previously brought up earlier in the movie (such as fish legs and snot lout using noise to disorient the king dragon) but also hiccups plan to make the king dragon unable to fly by shooting at its wings. Additionally we also get some characterization from multiple characters, such as stoic thanking toothless (a dragon, Vikings mortal enemy for 100s of years) and stakes that occurred after the battle. Hiccup losing a leg & a new relationship formed with dragons. Though it seems this may be a World Cup fight, with the original premise being a David vs Goliath. Hope you see this! Again, the work is amazing and I’m excited for the next release.
I’ve actually been having a lot of trouble with this, thanks. My series that I’m writing has an OP antagonist that is supposed to be a benchmark for the characters to grow to. I wanted to showcase that strength without the butt-whooping being too boring to watch. I’ve been thinking about that a lot lately, and this helped me think some things over.
glad it helps!
u made me want to write a story oh shit
Think, but don't take this video as advice. It's not good advice and avoids story altogether.
11:32 underpaid novice thugs vs level 100 crime king
I would say the big thing worth discussing that didn't show up in this video is the characterization options for the loser of the fight. I don't mean the Naruto-style "let's find out what this guy's deal is in the last 2 seconds before he dies" moment, but rather the flyswattings where characters are left alive. You mention it, kinda, with the joke about "learning more about Quill," but there are a lot of fights - particularly if the one who loses is the protagonist - where a flyswatting is a chance to learn how our character deals with failure, fear, or pain.
Incredibly insightful, entertaining, organized, and logically structured! Easy sub
14:20 Personally, I disagree with this point. I do believe that in most circumstances Thanos should have ,and would have, taken them all out, but there exists a problem. Thanos wants something from them. It isn't unreasonable to believe that Thanos understood the situation with Doctor Strange, and this scene showcases his wisdom. He knows that Doctor Strange has what he wants, and he has to give it up willingly. I believe this is the purpose of his actions. I believe that this scene shows how he is still a creature with fear, but he has ambition and wisdom that allowed him to have made it this far. I think that the writers included this as a way to express him as a very complex character. This is also why he doesn't slaughter everyone after he wins the time stone. The writers wanted to further the plot that Thanos is egotistical yet merciful, and the decision for him to not finish off one of the greatest threats to his conquest expresses that.
this is a good point, but i still think his gauntlet was not used as well as it could have been
Huh… I thought the opposite lol. Thanos is at the end of his lifelong goal and is basking before the final part. I thought one of the writers must’ve been trying to pigeonhole him into the traditional villain role of monologuing or toying with the heros before finishing their evil plan. Where’s the fun in ending his journey with an insta-win fight via the gauntlet? Why not make the ending fight a hard fought, drawn out beat-down? The bards will sing of this tale for eons. Interesting how different a take we can have XD
in regards to using the gauntlet badly, i think that may just be a case of inexperience, thanos began his crusade like days prior, so the amount of experience and usage he's had of the stones is limited, put that on top of the fact he now has a lot of options to chose from since each stone is so versatile and he might even suffer somewhat from decision paralysis, he could maybe achieve a similar 'stop the enemy from moving' effect from the reality stone making bindings or the space stone grabbing them with telekinesis or something, or he could do any number of other things. it's quite possible that he was litteraly making up every usage of the stone as he went along, figuring it out as he goes along. not sure how much it matters but the thanos of endgame and the thanos of infinity war also fight differently, the one with armor and sword is very in your face about things, while infinity war thanos relies heavily on stones and only sometimes mixes that with melee, him not being used to fighting like that could also be a factor
I agree so much with your take on how viewers want to see a showcasing of the hero's strength, not of the opponents' incompetence. That's why I often find the 'hero VS group of thugs' boring most of the time, but I hadn't been able to put it into words. Omg. Such a great video
Vi and Jayce vs the chemtanks is such a good flyswatting scene because it goes from the enforcers fly swatting the workers, the chemtanks flyswatting the enforcers, and then Vi and Jayce (a character with no fight experience) fly swats the chemtanks, thus showing how insanely overpowering and dangerous Hextech is.
Tbh I think they should’ve used the scene to show Vi in her element while showing Jayce to be stumbling, although being more knowledgeable about his own weapon’s capabilities. Still good fight overall though
only three months old and so wonderful... keep up the good work brother !!!
A good David V Goliath fight that you should include as an exception is the final fight of Puss in Boots: The Last Wish
One of the reasons I ADORE Full Metal Alchemist: Brotherhood: no matchup is pre determined, even the most "broken" abilities can be countered or subverted due to clever power use and teamplay. It also does not fall into the trap of "random power ups" or people having inherent latent potential which gets called up when needed. All hands, all brain.
Garou vs the heroes squad is def is an awesome fly Swatting fight
These videos honestly are really helpful for writing. I hope people in the future use this knowledge to make very entertaining stories
Overlord has some very interesting powerscaley fights, one that comes to mind is Brain vs Shalltear, which does a great job of contextualizing Shalltear's (and Nazarek's) actual strength in comparison to the strongest fighters the world has to offer
True, its similar to the fly swatting in tensura where entire armys get deleted by 1 character
currently trying to write a novel rn, thanks for enlightening me on how most fight scenes are covered
Good luck! Writing is good for your brain. Everyone outside the hobby seems obsessed with "when are you going to sell your book?" but my advice is just to focus on the process, on learning, and on the kind of scenes you find exciting to write.
One of my favorite fly swatting fights is Red vs Blue's Agent texas vs York, Wyoming and Maine. There are quite some interesting details in the fight that show us more about Texas and also York.
It was shown already that Agent Texas was the goat, she already had 2 fly swatting fights where she performed really good, but this time, we get to see that even against top tier agents, she can dispatch them pretty easily (even though York was trying to get Wyoming and Maine to work together and they refused to do so). We see yet again during the bo staff fight round, hand to hand round, and also gun fight round that she mops the floor with them, with most of the time showing off, and i think it is a good detail from the animator that she tries to do these tricks and being cool because some time after that, it'll make sense why she is always depicted like that.
Anyways, we see York more into York's personality as someone that makes jokes and satirizes most situations, no matter how hard they get. We get to a a certain gunfight round where Wyoming and Maine are given live rounds and grenades instead of non-lethal ammo, and they go straight to try to kill Texas despite being in a practice session. York gets fed uo with this situation as he didn't know why was it happening, so he tries to help Texas, even though it was the first time he met her. We see that York tried to do the right thing even if it means that he has to betray his teammates.
On the other hand Texas reacts to this by saying "I don't need your help, never abandon your team", even though she was dealing with 2 top tier agents that were actively trying to kill her, which shows how she values loyalty (despite that she always tries to do things on her own) above everything, or maybe not, but that's a spoiler. And yeah, she rejects York's help and even gets to beat his ass in one of her outburst of rage when she got shot in the shoulder by Wyoming.
At the end of the fight, Maine accidentally throws a grenade to York, he couldn't react to it because he was stunned after getting hit by a huge block of concrete. How he survives the grenade? Texas started shooting York with the non-lethal rounds (which on impact it creates like a pink mass that blocks the movement of the armor, so yeah it was used to reduce the impact York would receive), and this also shows that, despite Texas valuing so much loyalty, she is not a senseless murderer and wants to do the right thing. And these traits have a big impact later on and explains why everything turned out to be the way it was (i forgot to tell that the fight took place way earlier than the current events of the show)
amazing video. i was able to sit through and hear every word and understand it completely. like totally hooked. keep going bro 🔥
I’ve been loving your videos I’ve been here for about 3 weeks and you make some of my favourite videos I love watching people analyze movies characters and genres
glad you enjoy!
Well put together video, accurate breakdowns, entertaining watch, good examples, and no just talking for the sake of talking. I'm glad I found this channel.
I will say though, I think the definition done for 'Characterization' misses the mark just a tad. After all, not all new things are entertaining, such as when the pattern of the new information's nature is repetitive or too predictable.
So to speak, if you can swat one fly? Cool. Now you swat two or three? Cool. If we keep bumping up without much difference in the 'nature' of the info, like maybe twisting the motivation, then the 'new' information becomes stale before it's sold. We need the showcases to continue to show variety in order to keep the nature 'fresh'.
Great videos. Seems like Kill Bill has a tone of excellent examples of these different types of fights. I think it does what you're talking about quite well. I really thought about it thinking about how the sword fight against the gang is an example of somehow having a fight against a huge number not just fall into the 'they line up and fight one at a time' trope.
So for David v. Goliath I might say that The Bride vs. Budd. Maybe it's not enough of a 'fight scene' but we've seen her absolutely mow down everyone in her path, and then she is going after this out of shape has been, who uses his apparent weakness to hit her with a shotgun blast. Very tactical in context.
@@gailonebell2154 going to be watching kill bill soon, thanks for the comment!
Kill Bill also has one of the most egregious "one-at-a-time" flyswatting scenes. Much like Rey and Kylo Ren in the throne room, you can clearly see the stuntspeople waiting patiently for their mark before they take two steps in and get slashed on cue.
Love this analysis.
As to your points on One Punch Man, I know you haven't read or watched it in a while or perhaps even fully, but I would add to what you said. Its not just exploring the idea "Its lonely at the top" or even primarily exploring that idea, though that is part of it. It's also exploring how people are recognized for power. Its a satire not just on anime, but on society, and the expectations people have for the powerful, the skilled, and the respectable. We see over and over again that very few people recognize Saitama's skill despite his many battles that have literally saved the entire earth or cities from destruction. Because he acts so "normal," is humble, doesn't constantly brag about himself, and because of his bearing and appearance, as well as his direct and honest way of speaking and personality, he is often overlooked by a hero society of grandstanders, arrogant megalomaniac, and powerful people who are always competing for praise, money, and heirarchy. Because of this lack of recognition, he struggles with money, achieves great power but isn't recognized for his actions and abilities, and doesn't rank up highly as a hero. He also finishes fights so quickly and efficiently that many common people watching in the crowds can't even comprehend what they are seeing, and if they do, its anticlimactic and less showy than, for example, Bicycle man, who struggles nearly to the death and loses to a villain, but rouses and brings hope to the crowd of onlookers and even Saitama himself, who respects him for his humble courage and struggles over the higher ranked powerful heroes. One Punch Man is making a statement about how society values skill and talent. Saitama, because of his personality and the way he acts, his "shortcomings" in being able to sell himself to others, are also his greatest strengths, and yet keep him poor, keep him overlooked, keep him almost unknown and unrecognized. There's a lot of depth to it's critique of society that I've never seen another anime explore.
Interesting points, thanks for the comment!
“If all you want is to have fun, don’t get any stronger” - Saitama
It should also be noted on the exposition point that in JJK, explaining your abilities straight up empower them. It's a very fun way to get around what would otherwise be very clunky exposition on someone explaing how their power works.
As someone who grapples with this stuff myself - especially so with writing fight scenes - I think I might be able to give some insight into that point you brought up during the Thanos VS Avengers section. That point being that Thanos' realistic reaction would be to finish them as quickly as possible. With regards to a fight like that or similar setups, I notice that it follows what I sometimes call the "Assess And Respond" approach. If you think about it, it's quite a normal thing to do. It's deciding on what's needed for a given situation, and not dipping into overkill.
So, for the Fly Swatting metaphor, if you only have a few of them buzzing around, you'd probably stick with basic weapons, or even a bare hand if you're not too squeamish. More than that, and you start scaling your response accordingly. If there's a dozen of them or more, it's probably time to break out chemicals or other implements that can make dealing with them easier. If you only see one or two flies, however... Is going to that extent really necessary, when you can simply thwack 'em and carry on?
The same goes for fight scenes. Sure, Thanos no doubt wants to win, but he's probably looking at the Avengers / Guardians like a handful of flies that he can dismantle with his fists and maybe a small dose of magic if he's not liking the way things are going. The Heroes themselves enable this too, coming at him in a flurry of weaker attacks, which signals to Thanos that he doesn't need to use the nuclear option. They're easy enough to handle with his equivalent of a flyswatter. It's only after he realizes that he underestimated them that he lets loose with the guantlet.
The point I'm getting at here is, sometimes using the most powerful solution is quite unrealistic, even in a case where a given character does want to win, it may not be necessary. Doing so then makes the character appear as one who is less measured and prone to engaging in overkill to achieve their ends. This can have a whole range of knock-on effects, such as causing some characters appear insecure, reckless, or barbaric, which may run counter to how the writer is trying portray them.
Obviously this doesn't always work, but it's good to keep in mind when looking at fight and battle scenes.
Fair points
For the hallway: Keep in mind that a hallway is a chokepoint, and so the "one thug at a time" strategy isn't so much a bad writing/choreography choice as much as it is a strategic necessity. If you have superior numbers, fighting in a hallway or similar chokepoints is a great way to completely nullify that advantage because only maybe 1-2 of you can actually approach at a time. Anything more and you're all crowding each other.
Which is still a bad choice on the thugs' end and it does display their incompetence, but it's not immersion breaking to me.
Tbf basically everywhere in an urban environment excluding parks is a choke point
Something to remember about many vs one fights - more than the writing is at play there. Actually determining how that fight plays out is not the sole domain of the writer. Lots of other people have to figure out how to choreograph and animate/act out the actual fight. And choreographing a many vs one fight is literally _exponentially_ harder (because designing an ideal fight choreography requires one to consider how every individual reacts and interacts with every other.)
Also, people (especially in a combat situation) are not rational, perfectly skilled robots. (fun fact: humans inherently tend to assume other humans will/should act unrealistically rationally) It is, in fact, _not realistic_ for a bunch of untrained thugs to promptly coordinate an attack against a skilled fighter. Individuals will think "I'll let someone else wear him down", or get in each other's way, or just straight-up not be sure what to do because the adrenaline and stress is reducing their brain's capacity for critical thinking, etc. People don't want to get hit - and while rushing him with a bunch of other people will probably win the fight, starting that rush means probably being at the front and getting hit.
yep, this is completely ignored here.
as someone trying to get into writing, these videos are really helpful. Keep up the good work!
You should definitely make a series where you dissect different fight scenes and name what’s good and bad about it‼️‼️
Just finished watching Frieren. The Frieren vs Drath fight was in my opinion a perfect example of a good flyswatting and i though of your first video immediately. Frieren is obviously not in any danger at any point, and she even tells Drath as much (essencially warning him to run away).
Haikyuu has some of the best and most impactful "fights" in any anime. Karasuno vs Shritorizawa is the most obvious example of David vs Goliath.
i have to check that out
I think it might actually be one of the best David vs Goliaths I’ve ever seen, because not only does the Goliath, Ushijima, not feel weaker as the game goes on, he only gets stronger and stronger, to the point where at the end he’s one of the best depictions of a realistic character feeling genuinely superhuman. He outshines the entire rest of the cast by such a huge margin and yet because the context of the “fight” is a team sport, he’s still beatable. And they don’t even take the easy way out of having him be strong but his team be weak, the rest of his team still all feel realistically strong, but it somehow still doesn’t feel unrealistic when they lose. There’s some alchemy there, and I do feel some slight fudging to make sure everything works, but it’s completely unnoticeable unless you overanalyse it to a completely ridiculous degree.
If you haven't seen it or someone else hasn't already recommended it to you, definitely check out Accelerator from A Certain Magical Index. (and by extension the spin off shows; A Certain Scientific Railgun, and A Certain Scientific Accelerator. Both of which are preferable to Index in my book simply for pacing reasons.)
He's my favorite sympathetic villian, and has several flyswatting scenes while also not being completely boring to watch.
Love the content, keep up the good work ❤
1:07 Who dat?
Anyway, I appreciate this much more nuanced and detailed discussion of powerscaling. The unnecessary hyperbole in the last vid only served to obscure your point, imo, but this is a much clearer explanation of your argument.
Doctor strange
I think the rooftop fight scene at the end on Hardcore Henry is a great example of a David vs Goliath fight and I'd love to see it covered! The movie as a whole is great and you should 100% give it a watch.
On another note tho, these vids are amazing and suuuper high quality and I'm excited to see more from you! Keep up the good work
I think the best example of a 1 v. many fly-swatting fight that I can think of is the Warehouse fight in Batman v. Superman.
Regardless of how you feel about Batman’s characterization, the fight excellently shows how it avoids the tired enemies-taking-turns trope.
The most crucial moment of this fight is Batman’s opener as it gives him many advantages against a group:
1) allows him to take the jump on an entire room full of armed men. If you don’t already know, Batman initiated the fight by blowing up the ground beneath the middle of the group. This gives him a unique angle in the fight.
2) some of the men fall through the hole and are instantly taken out of the equation
3) those remaining fall to the ground disoriented
4) this gives Batman enough time to grapple to the ceiling which gives him the vantage point
5) because the thugs never saw him, they still assume he was down there and start firing in the wrong direction
6) Batman’s hidden vantage point gives him the opportunity to use his superior equipment in order to neutralize all of the rifles in the room
7) the device that neutralizes the guns also act as a mini explosive that will take out some of the goons and disorient others
8) after all is said and done, the remaining few are left scattered leaving low chances to jump Batman
Once he finally engages in combat, he still uses his superior speed, skill, and gadgetry to dispatch goons and keep others at bay. At most he gets jumped by 3 people. The only guns that still work are measly side arms that can’t penetrate his cowl and gauntlets.
The oldboy choreography makes sense because of the corridor. You have to understand that when you're looking from the side characters are still fighting in a narrow space allowing attacks of couple of people at a time. Even when they gather to stomp him you can see they're very close to eachother because of the hypothetical barrier.
I almost didn't realize this was posted 2 hours ago. I just finished watching the previous video on fights lol
Just encountered this video on my home feed. Happily subscribed halfway through! Looking forward to your future videos
Another great couple of David v Goliath fights have to be Spider-Man vs The Sinister Six from The Spectacular Spider-Man S1E11 and S2E3. Both of them are quite different and also showcase a great use of strategy against stronger opponents, or characterize the growing effects of the black suit.
Really compelling and well paced video. With that kind of high quality video essays you‘re going far
I love the fight scene in Frieren: Beyond Journey's End, Frieren vs Aurora, where there was a hint that Frieren is OP, but you cannot be sure until the reveal of the backstory. The fight scene is, I think, a great example of fly-swatting.
Aintnoway this guy called the Old Boy hallway fight, one of the greatest fight scenes in cinema history, "not that bad"
The thing about the hallway fight I think is how incredibly human it is. They don't all fight him because they might hurt their friends. And they're fighting in a hallway, it's cramped. But also scared. And half way thru the fight you can tell they're running on fumes. They're tired, kinda feel done but the Mc is just doing it because he has to get out. Pure power of will. It's a bad fight because they're all pretty bad fighters. But it's about how raw the power of will the Mc has.
I think I saw one of your videos some weeks ago and didn't feel like it added anything to the scenes you commented but now your analyses are really pertinent and for any beginner writer are strong advice, so keep up the good work and keep improving mate you're doing tremendous work!
A david vs goliath fight I like is Vetto the Despair vs the Black Bulls in Black Clover, the opponent is clearly stronger than everyone, and the one person who could stand a chance in a 1v1 is occupied, so they have to use their abilites together to win
have not yet watched black clover, is it any good?
@@Squampopulous it's one of my favorite anime, it does a lot of common tropes really well
Absolutely love your ideas. Inspiring and I wish I had more anime recs that fit this theme. Keep it up!
Old boy being mentioned as a bad fight was something i didn't expect at all.
The fight was never intended to be a great fight, where Odaesu can show off his skills. The movie is about him and the antagonists crazy revenge fantasy. Odaesu just did some work out in a room he was captured and locked in for 15 years without any fighting skills. The Hallway where the fight mentioned takes place in was not only very narrow but also wet, and you can even see the thugs slipping on the floor or missing hits due to space and slipping, same with Odesu.
On top of that, noone won the fight. Odaesu just managed to get out there alive with how he positioned himself, since noone really wanted to continue to battle as Odaesu is clearly insane, unpredictable and managed to get through the mass of people with a knife stuck in his back.
Its one of the best fight scenes in a "realistic" movie for the whole choreography being in one single shot, where the fight in itself is cohesive (in comparison he could have used the Old Boy Remake fight scene as a bad example instead), and realistically not a single person would have been able to get out of Odaesus situation alive.
So its more of a David vs. Goliath with Goliath being the group of thugs.
Before the fight started, Odaesu telling them the Bloodtype of the guy he tortured is a big characterization point. Him being willing to somehow get through this group, even with a knife stuck in his back, shows how determined he is with his revenge. Its not a big flashy fight, it's intentionally a sloppy uncoordinated mess, and it captures that really well, especially by comparison of the difference in determination of the group of thugs and Odaesu.
As he said, it's both good and bad. It's a great spectacle, and it's close enough to realism that a lot of people buy it, but there's just so many of them within a few steps of the protagonist(armed with a short, blunt weapon) that it doesn't actually work if you think about it. It broke my immersion, and while I know my bar for realism is higher than most, I'm definitely not alone in this. I think if he'd had a sword or long stick that might have improved it a lot, alternatively if the cinematography had hidden just how surrounded he was.
exactly
@@korganrocks3995 Yeah, although i just have to disagree with it being good AND bad; I see its more a flaw in the framework he uses to analyze the fights.
Although i think its a great tool to use for analyzing battles, it leaves out unrationallity, unpredictabillity and imperfect actors.
I would need to watch the fight scene alone in close detail to find the part you mention (thugs few steps from protagonist which are not hitting); but in such a closed space those people risk hitting fellow thugs or risk getting hit by them. Therefor i dont think it breaks immersion.
Yeah IF they where 100%ly determined to just kill him, yeah he would have no chance. They could risk self injury and just end it.
Fight scenes in movies in general never are realistic. In reality fights just dont look pleasing, people just end up on the ground and try to do as much damage as possible by stabbing for instance, or they end up grappling. But unpredictable grappling wont look good in movies.
Therefore straight up realism and believability isnt something i would rank very high as a measurement for a fight scene, aslong as there are no extreme cases of just acting or choreography mistakes (like acting as like taking a hit when the other actor forgot to hit a punch).
Real fights with high competence would look like MMA fights basically.
So Somewhere the writer needs to include fictional liberties even when trying to write a realistic fight.
As in Kung-fu and one Badass actor destroying a group of people looks cool, but that not realistic. And I dont see a way to choreograph an unpredictable and sloppy fight scene intentionally and pull it of better than this.
So in conclusion I would say if the movie is primarily about fighting then yeah in this framework you could argue to make fights more of a spectacle. But this misses the point here.
Especially 1v1 fights when a group is involved dont make sense if the intention is to showcase a characters strength or to make a fight pleasing.
Therefor the context of the fight itself and the intention of the writer needs to be looked at too.
So the Framework he uses is definitely good for a lot of genres, and especially for Anime and pure action movies.
@@zephiask1758 The trope of a group of enemies attacking a lone fighter one at a time is something modern audiences are more sensitive to than a few decades ago, so you can't get away with it as easily now. Whether things are realistic are less important than if they seem realistic to the average viewer.
If you're goon nr 13 and watch some mysterious dude dispatch half a dozen of your fellow goons with ease, you'd either try to organise a simultaneous charge or get the hell outta there, you wouldn't wait until he's taken out another half dozen and then attack him as if you had any greater chance than the previous dozen mediocre fighters in a 1v1. It works in something like Kill Bill, because by that point the movie has made it very clear that realism isn't on the menu, so just sit back and enjoy the ridiculous spectacle, but in a movie which so far has been fairly realistic, it'd break my immersion.
Part of my problem might come from having worked with kids: even kindergarteners realise quite quickly that they don't stand a chance 1v1 whether it's soccer, wrestling or whatever, so they always end up swarming you and winning, so to me it seems unrealistic that adults wouldn't come to the same conclusion.
@@korganrocks3995 That's because they're kids. Adults are a lot more hesitant in that regard. I remember seeing a bunch of footy vids a while back where they pit kids against adults, and the former were a lot more bum-rushy in that regard.
As an aspiring writer, I’m absolutely loving these videos and how you deconstruct fights and analyze their purpose. It’s so simple yet super helpful!!
On the topic of fight scenes, one of my favorite fight scenes of all time is Adolin vs the 4 shard bearers in Words of Radiance by Brandon Sanderson. I highly recommend checking it out and it would be super cool to see a breakdown of it or maybe have it be referenced in a future video c:
I’m also not sure under what category it would fall onto as it kinda shifts back and forth between two as the dynamics of the battle change.
I’ve read mistborn, eventually will read more of his work!
I think you should probably add another category called eye candy as in fights that aren’t technically that important to the story but are still a welcomed addition due to showcasing cool stuff within a series
Nah. If it has no purpose then it shouldn't be there. That's just lazy writing catering to a shallow audience.
@@junova7503 A lot of art that is not made by self-proclaimed artists who want to convey a "deep meaning" is to just look cool, or nice. You don't exactly look at a painting of a landscape and say "ahh yes, I love the darkness of the shadows alluding to the darkness of the artist's heart."
That isn't to say that art with intention is bad, in fact, I love art that has hidden meanings for me to uncover, but not all art needs to have a purpose.
@@TotallyTally Just because they're not conscious of it doesn't mean they aren't trying to convey a 'deep meaning'.
@@TotallyTally Art is a means of communication, an expression of ideas and emotions given form. A painting of a landscape, to use your own example, serves to capture a view from the perspective, or the mind, of the artist, and thus communicate with the viewer.
A fight scene is a part of a story, which, as art, is intended to communicate with the viewer. A pointless section of the story is like a pointless section of a painting, it should not exist as it serves to distract from and hinder the expression that is art.
To put it simply, a pointless scene in a story is not "art", it is a detriment to the art otherwise present.
You claim to love art yet claim "Not all art needs to have a purpose".
I implore you to read these two quotes by artists:
"If your art doesn't irritate people, you aren't doing your job." - John Cage
"Art Should Comfort the Disturbed and Disturb the Comfortable." - Cesar A. Cruz
Love how you explored the concept through a variety of shows. Honorable mention to Mob Psycho 100
Great video, I really like how you clarified your point about powerscaling, I had the same questions as that commenter did.
About the one-thug-at-a-time problem, I wonder what you think of the Madness Combat animations, I think they do have that problem quite often (the 5.5 episode is most notable for this in my opinion), but the sheer speed of the fight makes it believable most of the time. Also the characterization is quite lackluster? Though it does get better at the newer episodes. Anyway I just can't stop but enjoy the animations and I wanted to hear your opinion on it (even if it's a negative one).
Honestly if anything I was a little disappointed with MC12 because we watched Sanford get completely decimated and exhausted in 11, and now all of a sudden he's mostly back to being a badass killing machine again.
As a superhero nerd and a big fan of the infinity saga of the MCU, that Thanos fight doesn't really bother me. While I think realism has it's place in tv and movies I personally like when some media strays away from that (especially in the superhero genre as I love to see whacky displays of powersets and such even if they don't make the most sense 😂), but you certainly aren't wrong and you bring up great points to think about, even if I don't necessarily agree. Great video and I'm excited to see more from this channel! 🔥