I’ve totally been on the bad end of “don’t worry it’s casual”, but I’ve also been on the other end with an Urza deck that’s Vorthos based with dragon engines and such. Just have to trust but verify and believe people when they show who they really are.
I've been one of the 3 with fun decks getting destroyed by optimized. I've been the one with Kalamax getting roffle-stomped by 3 players with Pre-Cons. It's all about the players' character, sportsmanship and awareness of surroundings to make the best of the time had. It's only time to walk away when someone's fun comes at someone else's expense. I've walked away from many games where people only cared about winning & not each others' names.
This is partially why I love playing underwhelming/lesser known commanders. You aren’t scrutinized from the very beginning and when you pull something off often people are like “oh, cool! I’ve never seen that before!”
@@drakegrell-bd1qbI love my Latulla, Keldon Overseer deck. It’s a mono-R commander that essentially has Blaze as an activated ability. I built it to focus on burning my opponents out, and because that Blaze ability requires discarding cards to use, it also let me use some of the old red hate cards that target blue and/or white stuff, because I can either really disrupt someone in a way most EDH players have never seen, or I can just pitch them to burn someone for a bunch of damage.
This can have similar consequences as running a well known commander. cEDH pub-stompers love using this tactic to lure casual players for easy wins. People might think your up to no good and target you down first, not wanting to risk being pub-stomped again.
a friend brought a Narset deck and said something like “dont worry, is not THAT deck, this is low power lvl”, then proceeded to take like 6 consecutive turns with extra combats each
I built a Narset deck as well but I was telling the truth. No extra turns and no extra combats. It was Narset equipment. One of the goofiest decks I ever built. Was still super strong tho, Sigardas Aid on field and hitting a colossus hammer is kinda busted
If you’re the type of player who likes power, then the key is to own it. I come to my playgroup with everyone full well knowing that all of my decks are huge threats, and I love being the target from the get-go to me defending against three other players forces me to be a better player, the only thing I like more than that is taking underwhelming commanders and making those powerful
I think we need to be aware that variance exists in Magic, and that sometimes your 6 will play like a 9 in any given game. It becomes a problem when the overperformant outlier becomes the frame of reference that people base their threat assessment on.
This happened to me last week. My Yarok is pretty fierce, but it isn't competitive level, but I got basically a perfect draw letting me win in 5 turns, when normally it wins closer to 7 to 9.
Completely agree. I have a tuned Mogis deck that I love and tinker with all the time. It's definitely my level 8 and yet every now and again it gets dumpstered by a Pre-con.
This has happened to me more than once. The first deck I built from scratch drew the perfect set of cards one the first go and it’s been trash ever since. 😂
One of my pod members has told me before that I should not include an infinite combo in a deck because the deck isn't typically going for said combo. I sort of understand why, but at the same time, most of my decks don't win through anything besides combat, and not having an alternate win-con makes it easy for the table to avoid losing to my decks.
I also totally agree. I've won on turn 4 with my Grenzo deck at a 6 person table. That shouldn't have happened. I also setup consistent card advantage and token generation in my Gavi deck by turn 5, then cycled Decree Annihilation to blow up lands. I set the table so far behind that they couldn't catch up and mutually folded. To be fair, I asked them first if I should play to win before that cycle. There were other times too... Just random pop-offs where your 7 or 8 becomes a 9 or 10 for a single game.
Yes Joey, the whining story existsfor others: one of the staff of my local LGS likes to play a mono green omnath deck revolving around infinite mana combos. One night I play Kogla and fight omnath to destroy it and say I want to attack him to destroy his sol ring with koglas attack trigger. He whines and I attack someone else. He plays Nyxbloom ancient the next turn (needing the sol ring mana) and combos us the turn after. He also plays that deck with precons on the table btw
Where does whining start, cuz if someone points at me and says I need to be stopped or something has to be removed I try to bargain and maybe bring attention to other pieces on the board that are maybe more menacing. Would u consider that whining as well? I’m just curious, no hate or anything ^^
I'm curious what they said that convinced you not to target them. Coming from a 1v1 background and only just getting into edh I obviously am not familiar with people complaining about me targeting their stuff, it's probably even expected that I hear their sighs of exasperation if I'm playing Dimir but I'm still gonna do it cause I'm trying to win 😅 I'd say if the argument was "you should target X instead, they're the biggest threat!" and you believed them then that is just good misdirection from them (politics is the main aspect of any multiplayer game after all, so it makes sense it's the most important skill in edh). But if they just said "wahhh! I wanted to do my thing! You never let me have fun! Waaahhhhh!!" just smile as you take glee in their misery and remove their stuff 😊 (okay, I'm actually not that horrible in real life haha, but I would still remove their stuff if I considered it the biggest threat, again, in 1v1 I wouldn't stop from killing someone just cause they didn't want to lose, the same is true in multiplayer, it's the aim of the game.)
@Lyr00 I would say whining is whenever you try to use emotion as a reason not to be targeted rather than trying to make a deal or showing that there are other other good targets. Showing that you'll get upset having your piece removed may cause people to choose other targets but it also takes advantage of the social agreement that everyone is there to have fun and therefore trying to avoid 'feels bad' moments.
@ViXoZuDo no it's not wanting to deal with the player that's acting like a child. Crying about you targeting them and being unfair because it'll stop them from winning the game next turn.
I had a similar experience. I went to MagicCon Vegas this year and had a Thrasios/Tymna Enchantments deck. And the first time I went to sit down and try it out, I got nasty looks and decided to play Piru instead. I felt like, "Well I understand the power of the pairing, and while I know my deck isn't 'that deck' I didn't want everyone to have that experience either way." Had a great time either way!
Replace Thrasios with Kydele and you will get SOOOO many less weird looks. I did that for my 4 color deck and it has been so much easier on me mentally.
I like optimizing decks so I pretty much always play “that deck” and it makes pregame interactions simpler. Except for the commanders no one knows about, but that’s the joy of brewing
I think the observation about players is a good one: an earnest desire to have fun and be good company is kind of all I'm after in a game. I don't mind being the punching bag, or even having the most powerful deck (though I'm less comfortable with that) as long as we're all playing in the right spirit. I don't tend to opt for tutors or too much fast mana - beyond a couple of rocks in most decks - and it means I'm left with a very simple set of decisions every turn: which cards in my hand I can play and which I can't. I'm responsible for that set of simple decisions, so it's kind of on me to do my bit to contribute to the kind of game I want to play in.
Your Kenrith comments reminded me of how I actively describe my Chulane deck. “I have this Chulane deck that I built using its Brawl precon as a base, then adding a bunch of lands and creatures I had just lying around to get to an EDH card count, and that really limited its potential power… But at the end of the day, it’s still a Chulane deck and it will absolutely just run away with the game if you let me just do my thing.” I’m very much the Crim in my group; I’ve learned how to celebrate when an opponent makes the correct threat assessment to figure out what I’m doing needs to be dealt with.
I like the approach that the Worse possible commander show takes. Before the game starts each player reveals the worst possible combination their deck/commander can do so everyone at the table is forewarned.
Your timing is impeccable, Joey. I was just talking with my friends about this the other day, about the people who complain you won't allow them to play (some even claim you're 'king making'), yet they are the same people to outright win the game if you give them a millimeter.
Guy at my LGS: "It's not THAT Urza, Lord High Artificer deck" Same guy 15 minutes later: *wins by attacking with Blightsteel Collossus equipped with Lightning Greaves
To be fair though as someone who owns “that urza” it doesn’t run neither greaves or blight-steel as they are sub optimal. Though it seems you guys weren’t playing at same level
@@OrignalSithlord Well thats kind of the point, I think. He tried to play it off as a casual deck, so the rest of us played casual decks, and therefore, we were unprepared. At least I learned that "casual Urza" is a very funny joke
@@monateryswiftspearI tried making a casual urza deck basically using just using equipment to throw on the construct urza makes, I think that’s almost as casual that urza can get
The only deck I do this disclaimer to is my super budget Breya deck and even then I do explain that there are infinite combos. Breya herself is still an incredibly powerful commander by herself, but it just got really annoying getting focused down when my board is just a reckless fireweaver and a skyswimmer koi solely from the 'bad pr' of Breya when the person right next to me is literally Thoracle comboing in front of everyone...
I'm working on a Breya deck that is 100% colored artifacts. Nothing else. It sucks that commanders gets pigeon holes and that I can't be trusted when I say that my Ghave deck is fungus tribal based around spore counters and doesn't really even care about Ghave at all. I still get torched just because of his reputation.
@@ryansprenkle6356 I had a Ghave Saprolings deck too. I took it apart to make a Slimefoot and Squee deck instead. I found out that the best way to make a Saprolings deck is to make a Saprolings deck instead of a Spore Counters deck. Spore counters are too slow. For me, there are enough cards that make Saprolings without using spore counters. If you want to go the spore route, you will need to look for low power tables. That or stuff the deck with repeatable proliferate effects.
Breya just blasts people left and right. When I bust out a random deck like mono white rebels and my opponent brings out breya I'm basically just gonna get beat down no matter how allegedly bad their deck is.😂
Its amazing how apologizing can sometimes have the opposite effect. Played a game against a Tivit player, who got the turn one sol ring into signet off a mulligan and with a turn 2 dark ritual and 6 drop commander proceeded to utterly dominate the game from start to finish. He kept saying things like 'I didn't know it was THAT strong" and the like, but it was clear everyone was looking at him like he was an angle shooter.
He was 100% angle shooting. He included Dark Ritual with the intent to get Tivit out faster. It was unlikely that was his only piece of acceleration to make that happen. Tivit is basically unkillable with Ward 4 and 6 toughness and gives you 2 mana back immediately. It's going to be strong no matter what.
@@V2ULTRAKillcedh is a format in which the only viable strategy to win is combo and where a significant part of all cards played in any deck are the same... Imho if you want to play magic in a competitive way, play modern... That format has way more variety and sideboarding makes the game actually about strategy and skill😂
Absolutely loved this video! In my LGS' Commander League, I've been a customer/supporter for over a decade and have built the reputation of being 'the fun guy'. I treat every game whether it be casual Commander, semi-competitive Limited/Pre-Release or sanctioned events, as if I'm there to make friends... which IS the reason I'm there. I win some, I lose some, I really don't care... so long as we're all having fun. I have no problem being the punching bag, I get to watch the rest of the game and provide 'MST3K'-like commentary throughout. If I want to win and feel like I've accomplished something, I go to where I can get that feeling. If I want to have fun with friends and make new ones, I play Magic: the Gathering.
I don't think enough people have experienced what it's like to genuinely see people enjoy playing against them, it's so much more satisfying/fulfiling than plain winning. I have cutthroat decks and decks built to encourage social interaction, the most memorable experiences always always are ones where everyone is laughing over a hilarious interaction/board state.
@@ALymental After every game, I make a conscious effort to tell everyone how much I enjoyed playing. Remembering an interaction in the game or even just joking about our antics, I try to leave a lasting impression. It makes it that much better when tables/opponents are named, you hear your name with the pod and everyone in the pod turns to you... and smiles. You KNOW you're going to have fun! :)
I had a conversation with a local buddy that was real close to this. I think we boiled down to "Building a to play a game that's suboptimal fun and being ruthless to win" and "Building to play at the strongest decks you can build so that you can just run games for fun". The first is like "we all got a precon, I'm kicking your ass!" And the other is like "we come in with the expectation of power, therefore we can just let the cards play as they fall; you knew what you were stepping into when we started". Both are ABSOLUTELY VALID, and when everyone is open and starting the games on the same page. The problem is when people think they're playing one but building a deck that rests with the other; accidentally or intentionally. Example for EDH settings: It's one thing to run Miiriym, another to play Roaming throne; it's also OK to run both in the same deck. But if you're running them together: the "Chad" play is to play Roaming throne first, then Miiriam. You're absolutely being "unfun" if you play Miiriym first. You're especially an asshole if you do so, in multiple games, and you recall how the triggers result and what will be the consequences of that two piece combo, but you bungle and fiddlefart your turn clock mapping it out. FYI, Miirym then RT(Dragon) will make three RT. This means each dragon you cast after will result in 4 individual permanents per cast and 16 ETB effects. RT then Miirym just makes miiryms effect get copied once (so three permanents per cast) and 6 ETB triggers. It's still really strong but alot more fair than the alternative and easier to manage. Also, each RT triggers an addition ward cost, including stacking for RT, they just don't count themselves.
I really enjoyed this video Joey. It was a fun watch that I felt hit a little bit home for me. I am a rather casual player, my play group created silly rules to limit how we play. Mine is based on what brought me back to magic, D&D an other universes beyond products. I loved the dragon based precons for both AFR and CLB and wanted to mix colors together and went URG and found the only commander that fit my style was Miirym. This has led to a mildly frustrating experience with the deck where it is missing a number of parts and still draws out the removal just for the commander's potential. I don't play blink or clone effects since i just wanted big stompy dragons. And i did not include green ramp spells in favor of rocks since dragons like treasure. But I fight half a table most of the time since the commander is so scary. I don't fault the other players since if left alone I will have tons of dragons burning the board. But sometimes it feels like i am just eating up the tables removal until someone else wins. I like the deck and want to play it, but I am lost on if I should optimize it to go full archenemy or just shelf it for rare plays.
Ideas on how to "power down" the deck: - promise you'll never cast your commander or only cast it if you have literally no other cards in hand. If you really just only want the colors, make your commander the poster child but never play it. - play only the "bad" dragons, not truly bad, but there are many fun adventure ones and okay ETB ones from Baldurs Gate and Tarkir you could include - go the opposite route: become archenemy but ONLY play dragons, take out all the removal, sweepers, protection and just let the table know at rule 0 that you're not going to interact, you're just playing big dragons and will swing them at the threat; use politics as your ally there because they know your property now is to be the big stick they can direct at others - my friends dragon deck plays "group hug" cards to ramp everyone at the table equally and have them all draw so that way everyone gets to play the game and not feel like they're just throwing removal after removal your way
Good EP. There's no right answer, which is why videos like this can be made! Expectations, that's my big thing. People show up with their "Prized project" (deck) and want it to work how they envisioned. Anything from temperament of players, other decks, and card choices can affect it.
I have built the new Jin-Gitaxias. As a stimulation, I went SUPER budget, and all cards are .50 or under. You can still make a great deck with that in mind, but rather than lab man or thoracle, it is leviathan beatdown. My friends all know Jin is the strength and weakness of the deck, if he goes, no coming back. But every time he loses, I am allowed to change one card for a ~5$ one, because I am always the archenemy and I embrace it.
This encompasses all sliver decks I've ever played against. Someone has been hurt by sliver decks. It didn't matter who the commander was. And we had a wave of new kids excited to play slivers in some form or fashion. If you leave them alone, they take over the game. If you target them, you get the blinders to other threats creeping up on you.
Honestly that was the first deck I played it was a fun win never played slivers again (not because it was a bad experience just was to expensive to make a sliver deck)
My first game at a store was against a "that deck" player. I'm jamming an upgraded Lord Windgrace precon. He brings out an old-school 5c deck, and as soon as he can, he drops an Armageddon. I almost scooped, but something told me to stick around. I didn't end up winning that game, but I still had the most fun clawing my way back to a playable game.
I have a Meren deck that is "that" Meren value engine aristocrats deck, but on a $100 budget. I'm well aware that putting things like Fleshbag Marauder, Zulaport Cutthroat, Spore Frog, and Skullclamp can make the game feel like it's slowly choking you until I find something like Gary or Living Death to finish it. But it's also fun to see opponents pool resources together to try and kill me first, and I'm very clear that my intent is to dump as much of my deck in the graveyard as possible and pull value from it until I find a splashy spell that leads to a win, as well as because it makes me happy to see all my cards, even if I don't get to use them all that game.
Love the video, one thing I'd like to add is when you're playing a, as you put it, "bad PR" commander and it's not "that deck" maybe describe the deck. Like my Zur deck or my recently built Nekusar deck. Zur was themed around the card Paradox Haze and having multiple upkeep triggers while my Nekusar deck is a Monarch/Initiative themed deck. Talking people through the process certainly helps. I feel.
One of the easiest solutions for this problem personally is to just show people my decks before I play them. I know it takes the element of surprise out of them or whatever, but letting other players know that my anje deck has 2 madness cards in it and showing it’s a non combo reanimator deck, tends to mean I actually get to play my commander!
You're a class act. 👏 thanks for reminding me about playing with more grace. One way my play group avoids these situations (we still end up being 'that player') is to have certain upcoming game days be cedh style. Conversions with friends are super important for a healthy play group.
I think this conversation is interesting because i like to build high power commanders in a suboptimal, unique way. My favorite deck is my 4c Omnath gates list. Most people see Omnath and groan, but then I play a guildgate on turn one and they go "woah, nice!!" and it starts a conversation. Can i win on turn 5 if i have omnath, a fetchland, and an amulet of vigor in play by casting reshape the earth? Sure. But its only happened one time, otherwise the deck is durdly as hell and absolutely just uses Omnath as a way to have more mana and speed up the gates plan a bit more than winning on like turn 15.
I have a 5C Kenrith deck on a similar gameplan. It's built around cycling and blinking creatures. The deck was originally a Golos deck, but with Golos getting the hammer, I switched to Kenrith and tried to find the equivalent of the Golos ETB. In all of the games I've played with Golos as the commander, I've only activated him once in maybe 100 games.
15:00 You said that incredibly well. I love Izzet and I am a total Johnny at heart. The first legendary card I ever pulled was Jhoira and I loved everything about it. I couldn't play it in standard, but then I heard of this format where you play singleton and crazy decks. I was all in, I bought the 2018 Precon got a lot of cheap artifacts and went to my LGS to get instantly and relentlessly hated on for playing artifact storm and not know my deck. It wasn't the ideal version. In my head I was missing all the crazy 0 mana rocks and all that. The fact the deck still played solitaire was a concept I needed to grasp. nowadays I sit down with my pirate deck that is power (and of course izzet coloured) and some people get careful about the Malcolm Glinthorn combo, but I had other people speak out for me and that my deck is fun. That was the highest honour.
Definitely agree with the "that deck" vs "that player" mentality and have been on both sides of the "that deck" table. Nothing is more annoying than the guy that says I swear this isn't a cedh deck..and then proceeds to combo off turn 3-4. (Guy literally pulled out a list and said see its not the cedh list cause its missing mana crypt and 3 dual lands.) I also feel like knowing what your deck is capable of and being honest about it. My favorite deck is my Merieke ri berit deck. Its main goal is to win using my opponents cards so it doesn't really win the game on its own. But it does have some fairly staxy combos (aura thief and enchanted evening) that make it a strong deck. When I bring it out I try to be as honest as possible about its potential because of how it scales. (If I know someone has a blightsteel in their deck, you might see me play a blightsteel) and that comes from the knowledge of having played the deck for years. If you play a deck only a few times or just built a commander from the newest precon/set you might not be aware of some unexpected combos. And thats ok just be honest about it. If I am testing a new deck I will let the table know. However, if the commander has been out for a little while, try to do a little research about the target your putting on your back. People are going to be a lot more forgiving of a "I didn't realize this Doctor Who commander did that." Compared to "I didn't realize Tergrid could do that".
I am a very old school player and I remember hearing groans every game because I played Rafiq of the Many. My deck didn't have a single sword and was actually more of a bant control deck. I mostly used Rafiq to close out the game. Once my play group figured that out it was no longer an issue so much so that when a new player would join the pod my friends would let them know I wasn't playing "the Rafiq deck." I found it comes down to mentality like you said. When I showed that I am not trying to smash face via Rafiq with a sword, the stigma went away. But I had to earn that trust. It takes time and if you are not willing to go through that step then perhaps "those commanders" are not the best experience for you. Honest communication is key (much easier with a regular play group).
I was watching this video thinking about the Koma deck I'm building and whether or not I'd be able to make it strong, but not overpowered, so that I could be a challenging opponent to my plaugroup without actually being a problem... and then Koma gets name dropped at 8:36. Well played, Joey, well played.
It's ok to give up too! I tried really, REALLY hard to make my Kiki-Jiki deck not have any infinite combos, it's just not possible! the second I introduce any kind of synergy I run into different 4 to 5 cards combo. But I like the deck, so I warn people and well if it happens it happens! Owning up to it makes it a much more fun experience for people that play against me, because they're not suprised when it happens and can even try to figure out what cards could end up going infinite, and that's fun! So yeah, sometime the awnsers to your deck problems isnt to make deck swaps, it's just to accept thats what your deck does.
This is why I've mostly stepped away from commander. I built some decks i was really proud of and kept showing up to play at my LGS and it eventually ended in a game of Archenemy where i became the villain. I can't build decks that don't align with my play style, and that play style revolves around building a strong deck that stands a chance at winning. I've just come to the conclusion this format isn't necessarily for me. However, I do love when everyone plays pre-cons. That's fun.
Yep, being shamed for building a great deck with a reliable engine is rather toxic, but here we are. "NO, YOU CANT PLAY THE DECK YOU HAVE BEEN BUILDING FOR 4 YEARS BECAUSE I DONT LIKE IT!" This attitude is arguably more toxic than anything else.
Doesn't matter atraxa on it's own is just an incredibly strong card. The more casual you get the more of a threat atraxa becomes. In high power I couldn't care less about the atraxa itself it whatever the deck is doing that needs to be stopped. In low power casual games a 4/4 lifelink, flying, vigilance, death touch is constant commander damage and if you attack them you are losing something.
I had this happen at my LGS last week. Sat down with a couple of players I hadn't met and asked who they were running. One guy says, "Oh, I'm running a pauper deck just testing it out." It was Tatyova. I asked if he ran all of the combos in it, and he looked at me funny and said there was only 1 combo. Long story short, dude followed the entire cPDH decklist and primer and won lol I saved all of my interaction for him and he still pulled through.
In my playgroup my Alesha deck is considered "that guy" as it has Master of Cruelties and a lot of combos. I enjoy winning immediately with an unfair animation, but that being said- I don't mind being useless all game
I've only played commander for about a year or two, and when I opened a Korvold, Fae-Cursed King awhile ago I immediately thought it would be cool to build. When I decided to start building it I started as a treasure token theme but quickly realized that was going to be incredibly strong to have a free sacrifice and also gain mana for it, I decided I didn't want to go that hard and wanted something a bit less common so I decided on making food tokens and rat tokens when I saw how much support was in Wilds of Eldraine for those tokens. I had no idea how much Korvold was hated when I built the deck, and I feel like I'm not playing "THAT Korvold" deck, but also I recognize that Korvold is just super powerful no matter what, so I still expect to be archenemy and have added in more protection into the deck, and I'm not going to argue that someone should let Korvold live because the deck isn't optimized, he definitely deserves his kill on sight rep. I've asked some people to look through the deck and have been told it's not nearly as oppressive as it could be, but to expect a lot of hate regardless, because it is still Korvold.
I had a buddy a few years ago that would scoop the second anyone countered or removed his Gishath. Even if he had enough mana to recast it next turn. It became a running joke that it was an easy way to win the game.
I used to be the guy who really hated counterspells and blue, not to the point of raging about it but to the point of starting to build around it. Eventually I was running a Dragonlord Dromoka deck that was just no fun. Not only did the commander stop my opponents from casting spells on my turn but I was also running cards to stop activated abilities and even land destruction. I became the no fun allowed villain I always thought blue was. Don't be like me kids, don't let your hatred of blue turn you into the villain, embrace the losses and play fun decks instead.
Your friend sounds like the most immature player and I would definitely kill or counter his commander at the first chance every game. 2 mana remove target player will always be worth it.
I had a person I played vs that would concede to Emrakul the Promised End. So, after a few times, the ability was renamed to “target (person) loses the game.” Was the most fun not taking a person turn lol
I'm glad you used atraxa as an example because I've actually said that exactly line when I played my atraxa energy deck. I don't think I hand many counters that weren't energy counters.
On the topic of "Not that Deck" I gave up on Rafiq due to its PR, as you say. What's funny is that I built it in the same manner as my Mr. Orfeo deck, yet Rafiq would always be removed IMMEDIATELY, whereas Orfeo is almost never removed. The style of the decks had to do with the use of creatures that got bigger/scaled with what my opponents would do; the more broken things my opponents do, the bigger the swing via the damage doubling. It just goes to show how much PR alone will affect how people threat assess a commander, even if it does almost exactly what another one does. The other reason why I find Orfeo almost never targeted is because people's initial reaction to seeing him is, "Oh, so it's just a weaker Xenagos, but with black."
People love Darth Vader. Boos from the crowd are his applause. He is the villain and the threat and almost never apologizes for it. People love him for it. If you're going to be darth vader, be Darth Vader.
I've never felt so called out in the first 30 seconds of a video haha. My Yidris deck is my dragon tribal deck built to cast Dragonstorm. Hopefully you'll get to play against it this weekend at CommandFest!
@@VexylObbyDragonstorm is one of my favorite cards from when I started playing in high school, and he's the only commander I can think of that can really make it work. It's also still pretty strong and avoids the main thing people don't like about Yidris decks, which is the super long turns.
I imagine there are tons of Temur dragons options too that try to cast many spells in a turn. I will also say, Storm has a rough place in commander. It requires to to cast a lot of spells. And is that a fun play pattern to play against? Tons of other effects I have had to discord because they just don't make sense for a four player game.@@FightinTheGorlax
@@VexylObby Dragonstorm is the only storm card in the deck, so the vast majority of the time it plays closer to a jodah deck where I'm just cascading once a turn off a big dragon into another dragon
TBH, you could probably still have a great time running this card in a deck that only casts 3 spells before it. As long as you make it to turn 6 and have decent card draw. You are getting at least 3 dragons out of this.@@FightinTheGorlax
But ive also been the guy at a new pod who sees someone plop down a narset, panics, playes my hyper tuned vohar reanimayor deck and anccidentally RUNS the table over
I remember when I removed a Deadeye Navigator from the board, and the player playing it threw a fit, saying, "I wasn't going to combo off anytime soon, I just needed a creature on the board!". That's all well and good, and probably true, but it's also almost certainly true that he wouldn't give us a heads up and let us take a turn cycle to respond if he had drawn that Peregrin Drake a turn or two later. When I eventually comboed off, several turns later, he was still pissed off about losing his Navigator in the early turns and blamed me for ruining the game. The other guys were talking about how cool my win was and how powerful the combo was and such, but he kept butting in to gripe about the one removal spell that went his way against a decidedly powerful card. It ruined the rest of our conversation and put a serious damper on what should've been a really great moment, as it was a combo I'd thought of months before being able to build and play the deck. I'd never seen it before or since and it should have been a cherished memory. (Since I know someone will ask, I landed a Followed Footsteps on a non-legendary copy of Adrix and Nev, Twincasters) Anyways, this is a great example of how much worse it is to be "that player" than it is to play "that deck". He might not have had the combo, but he ruined the rest of our experience just because he felt my removal spell was unfair since he didn't have the combo. But seriously, what's more unfair, ruining a whole game for everyone or ruining just one turn for one player?
I run a Narset, Enlightened Master Superfriends deck. I used to just say “it’s not extra turns”. Within the last three years, I’ve had the deck for 5 or 6 now, I’m always honest that “it’s not extra turns, but it is superfriends and it is easily my strongest deck” when I play it. It’s opening the conversation honestly. I know I underestimated its power level early into having the deck, by a lot. Now I’m honest that I think it’s easily the strongest I have and what’s in it. If I get targeted out of the game for running it, I accept that fate.
I have an Ur-Dragon deck and I do run Korvold, Fae-Cursed King as part of the 99 knowing he definitely does have a PR problem with many people. My friends were pretty chill about it especially since I only use him as a face beater who happens to be a dragon that draws you cards as oppose to a big combo piece. I can only imagine when I start playing with others though lol.
i had a „it’s not that deck“ situation with my own deck online on spelltable. I was playing my Ur-Dragon deck and the other guys didn’t listen to me during the pre game talk, the thought i was playing a way to overpowered dragons deck for the table. but my deck is a real „it’s not that deck“. It’s an othersized card only with 40 basics, 59 oversized creatures and planeswalkers and Ur-Dragon as the commander because he gives my the colour identity
I usually try to give the benefit of the doubt as something similar happened to me. My pod we usually play upgraded precons and we try not to kill someone right away so everyone has a chance to do something (if someone is mana screwed or mana flooded we live him alone some turns and so on) so games tend to go up to almost 2h and maybe like 15 turns or so. So we decided to brew and build a deck from scratch with a 150€ budget. As I loved kamigawa and had always wanted to play the hondens (tried to make a 60 card deck a few time to no avail before we started playing commander) I decided to go for go-shintai and play the new shrines, and the sanctums which i didnt even knew they existed prior to this. Used all the shrine cards, got some of the enchantress deck core and added a bunch of fun and busted enchants I found while searching randomly for enchants on gatherer and goldfished a couple times to see how it would work out. Coming in to the game I knew it would eventually pop-off but I thought it would take 10+ turns at least as when goldfishing it usually took 8 turns on average without taking my opponents interaction into account. Game night comes, I got sanctum of all on my opening hand, a couple draw enchants and an early drawn hallowed haunting and the green sanctum shrine which gives mana. With sanctum of all tutored into the green honden and by turn 6 I took half the life from each opponent and by turn 7 the other half. It performed a lot better than I was expecting and the next 2 games got targeted so hard the ur-dragon player ended up stomping xD Nowdays I only play it at the end of the night when we wanna get a fast game while waiting for dinner to arrive and usually get the win. My favourite game was one in which I managed to kill one opponent with the honden of infinite rage, kill another through battle damage with my spirits + spirit clerics and mill the last opponent with the bmue go-shintai, all in the same turn hahahaha
5:25 On the subject of "How strong is your deck?" I've found that opponents are more likely to view me as fair if I offer a little rationale *alongside* my number rating instead of just giving a number. Such as, "My deck's strategy is well thought out and uses optimized cards but I'm also not going to combo off on turn 3.".
For a while the only deck i had was my Atraxa deck. It was "that Atraxa Deck". I usually tell the table that they have to put in all of the removal and stifles they can.
I’ve had a “baunt” golem tribal deck for a few years. Basically I wanted to play all the original splicers in one deck. I originally chose Chulane as the commander, but eventually switched to Amareth. Now, that deck is about to go onto its third commander with Brenard
I have a sissay, weatherlight captain deck but she is my dungeon delving deck. So when people give it a scared look because she can do some crazy stuff. My deck just goes off because I am speed running the dungeons hahah.
It's so weird to think there are some players that don't understand "not that deck" it's not wrong you don't know what tergrid does but it is wild to consider how different our experiences of the game are.
I had play with the seme people for several years; We had some of the situations that you talk about. for me what has worked the most its to play in a kind of "stair" were i get to play my jankiest decks first and as the games progress i got to play my fav deck wich its optimized, this has teach my friends when to keep me in check while playing some decks and when to spare me some hate and has though me how to play in a more relaxed way, sure im gonna lose some games with low power decks, but eventually i got to play mi higher powered ones in hopes to win
Thing with this being a multiplayer game is that people have different ideas of fun. I tend to play in a more casual pod, someone brought their friend who had only played at his lgs, the guy played a full control with tons of land destruction and had a blast doing it. We politely asked him to bring something else or just play with his other group. He brought Urza. Really nice dude outside the game tbf.
Ninjas have always been my favorite tribe, dating back before yuriko was a thing. Got yuriko the moment it came out and played it for years with my playgroup who knew it had no extra turn bs. For reasons I won't get into I'm not in that group anymore, and now I do wish there was another ninja commander, since ik I won't be able to get good games with yuriko while the table assumes I have stuff that I just don't
@eternaleclypse also a bad rep as you said, and his payoff honestly isn't that good for just using ninjustsu. Satoru is a case where if I ever played him I'd just rather play "that" version of him lol
Have you tried the grixis Satoru? It's cheap, adds another color and isn't well known enough to have much of a reputation at all in my experience. Plus you get to make dragons!
I did a ship of theseus with my Kenrith deck because one player in my group really *really* hated it despite it being very slow (on purpose). So now it's "oops, all activated abilities" Tazri, and I still get to use Kenrith's abilities but they are in creatures in the 99 and, to my surprise, it's much more fun. On the other hand, my "it's not that Zur" is actually not _that_ powerful (taking into account the high floor of a repeatable tutor). Its game plan is animating a bunch of enchantments and beating face, but I still don't dare to use it with strangers on Spelltable because I know he's a really scary one. I also have a warrior-typal Najeela without the ability to generate infinite extra combat steps, but again, try explaining that to someone who got stomped by a top tier Najeela!
Dismantled my Koma deck for this reason exactly. Loved the deck and it demolished the table, rarely EVER losing, but I noticed that people started becoming demotivated by my deck with all the counters and protection, always having answers to everything. It wasn’t ‘that’ Koma deck, but it being a Koma deck was enough to be ridiculously oppressive and a huge threat every single game. Then I went and discussed it with them. Ended up agreeing on the fact that Koma as a commander is simply too overpowering for the level we play at our table. The games are so much more fun when everyone is having a good time!
I usually play Jodah the Unifier only as a Human tribal deck. I know most people have played against him but I already know what I'm getting into knowing his reputation. Recently I built him as a Doctor Who theme deck built around the Doctors and their Companions. The fun way to win is with Gallifrey Stands. Even if I don't win with Jodah often I'm the kind of person that will tell you: "This is the game we play so no worries." Most people love getting games in with me because my decks may not be powerful but they love my themes and how I play older cards no one hasn't thought about or seen before. At the end of the day, it's all about seeing how people play and just chillin while slinging spells.
You have literially named two of my decks. Deveri, Bird Tribal (which I built as soon as it was printed) and I relatively recently built Beamtown Bullies group hug/slug, I need to explain every time that I am not playing leveller or eater of days. I am playing a whole lot of all players or all opponents cards. Its the Beamtown Bros, they aren't bullying anyone I don't know what you mean. When one of my win cons is Living Death I can' have too many nasty cards or I ruin myself. Deveri does still have the capacy to go completely nuts because that card is very strong but on a very different usually easily solved by a wrath kind of way.
I've got a friend who built a Nicol Bolas control/discard deck. Well actually, what he built was a cool Nicol Bolas themed Vorthos deck, containing a lot of cards the referenced Bolas or actions he did in the story. So it's got a lot of Jank cards in it with Amass themes.... But it also holds brutal counterspells and gain control and discard effects that will make the average EDH player cry. But the point is, it's still a really fun deck that I dont mind him pulling out to the table. It's honestly pretty neat a story deck functions this well. But we are able to navigate the game carefully so that there are not as much feels bads with such a famously irritating (But still valid) strategy
Literally could not agree with this more. As 'the sliver player' in my group (still my favorite deck), and really when playing any of my decks, I do my best to make sure that regardless of power factor and even if I'm the Big Bad(tm) for the moment, I try not to be *that* player. Make sound tactical moves, keep your position, etc, but don't be a social villain as well as the tabletop one because they are VERY different things. Sometimes that means missing out on really strong plays that would have won a game NOW vs winning a bit later but having a more fun time with the group. Sometimes that just means not winning even though you COULD have if you did that special combo that runs away with the table. But for me at least, I don't care about winning nearly as much as I want to play the game and have fun. If I win and everyone is salty about it or I had to gut people's play or sucker punch my way there, that's a loss in my book. And in all honest, the victories I manage that are by the skin of my teeth and the last couple points of life are the most gratifying. Similarly the losses that were hard fought and well played by the opponent without making it so I COULDN'T play at all are the most enjoyable as well.
I've dragged a number of my friends into MtG, and commander by proxy, cause that is all I play. For a long time, I was the archenemy of every game, and yet, I was also the mentor. I miss those days when I would have to pause someone's turn to walk them through trigger stacking or interactions that would give them a significant advantage. Now, all my friends are competent players with powerful decks, and I don't win anymore. I've never given a flying hell about winning, I just want cool shit to happen. One of my favorite games of all time... I was playing Ashaya, and another player at our LGS was playing Phenax, and my buddy was playing some lightly modified precon. He was spinning his wheels but gaining no traction. I combo'd off with infinite Mana, but I didn't have a sink for it, but I had an animist's awakening. I got all the Lands out of my deck, put them on board and passed. The Phenax player top decked that card that mills someone until they hit two lands. My library gone, he passes his turn. My friend takes his turn, then passes. I'm dead on draw. So, during my upkeep, I use one of my combo pieces, Mirage Mirror, to copy HIS Phenax. Ashaya taps, and mills him for 70 something cards, the rest of his library. I take my L with a grin, and pass. Phenax player digs through his graveyard, realizes he's beat, takes his L laughing at the absurdity, and passes. My buddy wins by doing absolutely nothing, and is pogging out of his gourd. It was the best thing ever. Detach your enjoyment of the game from victory. Just relax and have a good time with good people.
This is me with my Derevi Bird Tribal deck. They see the commander and think “oh god stax”, but once I play a few 1 cost 1/1 flyers people usually calm down.
Someone at our store has a Derevi bird tribal. If I'm in a pod with him, I'll gladly go to bat for it and vouch that it's not "that deck," because I've seen it played.
I put all my decks on moxfield with a little blurb on its wincons, combos, amount of fast mana and tutors as well as a general bit of strategy. Stuff like "ub superfriends with chainveil combo, some counters and boardwipes, no stax, only pw tutors, no fast mana other than sol. Wins via turns or +1/+1 counters on creatures, all boardstate based." I find this gives people enough to base a judgement call of the deck on to decide how powerful it is.
I got really lucky with my “that deck” experience, when I had decided to use omnath locus of rage as my first deck that I built myself, when people found out that was what I was building they did give me a warning about playing him and my reaction was “cool then I guess you’ll consider me a threat finally” and we were all laughing about it (I had been playing magic for about 3 months at this point). We started playing the game and it was really fun they allowed me to show off the deck that I was so proud to build and honestly they let me enjoy the game, not saying that they went easy on me but I didn’t feel targeted and over time when I started making upgrades it got to the point where I became the archenemy but we always enjoyed it, it’s always my jelly bean army against the world and I still enjoy those games to this day (although it has gotten to the point where my bf has a burning vengeance against my omnath deck)
I was playing with a new deck at my LGS with some people I had played with for a few times. I did t realize I had put an infinite combo in the deck on accident and when I drew it I just asked the table about it and if they wanted to keep playing and I just decided to not assemble it. I was still proud of the deck even though I didn’t win, and I still had fun.
Sometimes Joey mentions a shocked silence and pall that falls over the room after a game of Magic. I feel like he's playing with much more dramatic people than I do.
This can be a really hard thing to grasp for new decks. I’ve put together something once and had no clue whether or not what I made was a problem such that the reputation of the deck was or wasnt warrented. Sometimes, you just gotta jam some games, and listen to everything being said. Sometimes, you make something busted and disgusting, and you just gotta own it, and know for later the deck is relegated for higher power than you thought
I’ve found that the best way to alleviate the power level issue in general is to discuss the basic strategy of your deck. How does it accrue value? How does it want to win? What’s its play pattern? Is it more explosive or consistent? The more communication, always the better!
As someone who relishes making weird versions of commander decks, I regularly have to have the whole "It's not THAT deck" convo. My favorite deck that I've ever made is Narset Superfriends. It is incredibly fun and ridiculous and basically either crashes and burns or goes off into utter insanity. The first time people see it though, they always presume it's like most other Narset, Enlightened Master decks that just use every extra turn spell in the game to either prod or go Super Saiyan Voltron to win... which I get is super annoying. I think a good way to handle it is just to allow people to scoop out of the game without being a dick about it... of course, asking some MTG players to not be a dick is like asking Star Wars fans to not bitch about the recent content... but at a certain point, that sort of behavior warrants just cutting out the problematic person.
Funny that you showed Talion as the example. After I built mine I was wondering what people put in theirs. Talion is cool because he can kinda go any route. The edhrec page was basically just cash. Any expensive card you can imagine, was on his page. Laughed my ass off when after 10 cards the deck would have been pricier than my whole collection.
I find this Talion situation sad. When he was freshly spoiled I crafted a clone build, to get all the numbers named as something jank to accomplish. You could just name 1-4 a few times and draw quite a lot. Didn’t realize people would just do goodstuff, not even fairy tribal.
I think that is common (particularly for Dimir as the most expensive colour combo) with Commanders that don’t really do anything except provide card draw. There is no particular synergy to build around with a Commander like Talion. You just play a staples tribal as it were… and draw extra cards.
I remember one of my first games on spelltable. I joined a lobby that said “super casual” or something to that affect. I remember we all takes about the kind of game we wanted to have. Then the guy who made the lobby revealed he was playing niv mizzet, parrun. After a few minutes if the rest of us asking if he had another deck he could play, and him assuring us it wasn’t anywhere close to the cEDH list, we let him play that deck. He won on turn 4. When we asked him after the game why he lied about his power level, he said “it’s not my fault you guys didn’t run interaction”. I would’ve respected him if he just ate the bullet and said he just really wanted a win, for whatever reason.
I've found myself a niche in building notoriously-broken commanders in silly lower-powered ways. I often use "it's not THAT deck" as a sort of soft introduction so that I can then go "here are some details about what it actually is" like "it's Narset tokens with Fallen Empires storage and tapped lands, no counterspells or extra turns or combat, and my ramp is mana batteries" or "it's Chulane morph where all of the interaction is modal spells with Charm in the name" or "it's Tivit group hug with an emphasis on voting; there are some artifact-token win cons and there do exist two voting cards with extra turns on them but they're not the purpose of the deck so much as handing out card draw and tokens" because keeping my game plan an absolute secret only increases suspicion. Ultimately, I'm the one who decided to build the infamous commander. If someone doesn't want to take me at my word that I intend to play a fair game anyway, that's fine. Worst case, I switch to something they're comfortable seeing across the table instead, because sometimes people are just sick of playing against the commander I've picked.
This is almost what happened when I played Teysa last Saturday. We played in a group of three because there was no fourth person in the club. We played several games, I won once but nothing criminal, just my opponents were unlucky to have no answers for my threats. Then fourth guy came and asked about power level in our playgroup. I was silent, but one of my opponents said: This guy is playing Eldrazi, a very expensive and flavorful, but not very powerful version of them, I play my golgari superfriends, a potent deck if you don't pay attention to my plainswalkers, and this guy (me) plays Teysa. But it's not that Teysa, idea of the deck is the same, but this is kinda normal Teysa with some really good end expensive cards combined with some very strange decisions. Fourth guy took his less powerful deck, and I demolished all my opponents by turn seven by tutoring into boardwipe while I have Teysa and Blood Artist in play, and my opponents have billion of creatures. Only one of them survived that hurricane of triggers, but resigned anyway because I was way ahead on resources due to my skullclamp.
While the only "that deck" I've played is Niv-Mizzet (which I am straightforward in saying it's combo), I have had to earn my fellow players' trust with mechanically unique commanders (I have the handle Zeriphon on MTGCardsmith). It helps that it's generally a little lower-powered than my regular play-group.
Niv-Mizzet has always felt extremely fair to me. It's hard to think of it as "that deck". Sure, it's a 2 card combo, but the commander is 6 specific pips to get out, it only combos with 3 cards, and my only shot at tutoring for any of them is a Gamble, which just as often as not seems to lose me my combo piece. There's almost no chance I can pull off the win before turn 7 unless I run every broken piece of fast mana, and if you kill him once, I might not even get to cast him again. Really doesn't feel oppressive
This is a very interesting topic, I personally agree with the character of Crim. He is the very well adjusted villain who’s reveling and relishing in his villainy, is good at it and is utterly enjoying it. I think that should be the way to go for playing that deck, if the table doesn’t like it you don’t have to serve the table that experience.
I’ve totally been on the bad end of “don’t worry it’s casual”, but I’ve also been on the other end with an Urza deck that’s Vorthos based with dragon engines and such. Just have to trust but verify and believe people when they show who they really are.
It's unfortunate, but (much like with a lot of things) going on a case by case basis is often the only clear way forward
Sadly, never simple solution, but I agree gotta believe and then hopefully found a cool person to play with.
I've been one of the 3 with fun decks getting destroyed by optimized. I've been the one with Kalamax getting roffle-stomped by 3 players with Pre-Cons. It's all about the players' character, sportsmanship and awareness of surroundings to make the best of the time had. It's only time to walk away when someone's fun comes at someone else's expense. I've walked away from many games where people only cared about winning & not each others' names.
@@dougystyle79 💯 there’s a big difference between players who want to win and those who need to win
@@Qaicudbebdkdiwj ^ THAT... ALL OF THAT!
This is partially why I love playing underwhelming/lesser known commanders. You aren’t scrutinized from the very beginning and when you pull something off often people are like “oh, cool! I’ve never seen that before!”
I need commander suggestion for this exact reason lol please help😂
Dosan the falling Leaf seems funny@@drakegrell-bd1qb
@@drakegrell-bd1qbI love my Latulla, Keldon Overseer deck. It’s a mono-R commander that essentially has Blaze as an activated ability. I built it to focus on burning my opponents out, and because that Blaze ability requires discarding cards to use, it also let me use some of the old red hate cards that target blue and/or white stuff, because I can either really disrupt someone in a way most EDH players have never seen, or I can just pitch them to burn someone for a bunch of damage.
This can have similar consequences as running a well known commander. cEDH pub-stompers love using this tactic to lure casual players for easy wins. People might think your up to no good and target you down first, not wanting to risk being pub-stomped again.
a friend brought a Narset deck and said something like “dont worry, is not THAT deck, this is low power lvl”, then proceeded to take like 6 consecutive turns with extra combats each
I built a Narset deck as well but I was telling the truth. No extra turns and no extra combats. It was Narset equipment. One of the goofiest decks I ever built. Was still super strong tho, Sigardas Aid on field and hitting a colossus hammer is kinda busted
“I don’t know where you got the audacity, but you can put it back.” Yasss the sass 💅 I’m absolutely using that.
If you’re the type of player who likes power, then the key is to own it. I come to my playgroup with everyone full well knowing that all of my decks are huge threats, and I love being the target from the get-go to me defending against three other players forces me to be a better player, the only thing I like more than that is taking underwhelming commanders and making those powerful
I think we need to be aware that variance exists in Magic, and that sometimes your 6 will play like a 9 in any given game. It becomes a problem when the overperformant outlier becomes the frame of reference that people base their threat assessment on.
This happened to me last week. My Yarok is pretty fierce, but it isn't competitive level, but I got basically a perfect draw letting me win in 5 turns, when normally it wins closer to 7 to 9.
Completely agree. I have a tuned Mogis deck that I love and tinker with all the time. It's definitely my level 8 and yet every now and again it gets dumpstered by a Pre-con.
This has happened to me more than once. The first deck I built from scratch drew the perfect set of cards one the first go and it’s been trash ever since. 😂
One of my pod members has told me before that I should not include an infinite combo in a deck because the deck isn't typically going for said combo. I sort of understand why, but at the same time, most of my decks don't win through anything besides combat, and not having an alternate win-con makes it easy for the table to avoid losing to my decks.
I also totally agree.
I've won on turn 4 with my Grenzo deck at a 6 person table. That shouldn't have happened.
I also setup consistent card advantage and token generation in my Gavi deck by turn 5, then cycled Decree Annihilation to blow up lands. I set the table so far behind that they couldn't catch up and mutually folded. To be fair, I asked them first if I should play to win before that cycle.
There were other times too... Just random pop-offs where your 7 or 8 becomes a 9 or 10 for a single game.
"Its not that deck" he said, knowing full well that it was in fact, that deck.
Yes Joey, the whining story existsfor others: one of the staff of my local LGS likes to play a mono green omnath deck revolving around infinite mana combos. One night I play Kogla and fight omnath to destroy it and say I want to attack him to destroy his sol ring with koglas attack trigger. He whines and I attack someone else. He plays Nyxbloom ancient the next turn (needing the sol ring mana) and combos us the turn after. He also plays that deck with precons on the table btw
Where does whining start, cuz if someone points at me and says I need to be stopped or something has to be removed I try to bargain and maybe bring attention to other pieces on the board that are maybe more menacing. Would u consider that whining as well? I’m just curious, no hate or anything ^^
I'm curious what they said that convinced you not to target them. Coming from a 1v1 background and only just getting into edh I obviously am not familiar with people complaining about me targeting their stuff, it's probably even expected that I hear their sighs of exasperation if I'm playing Dimir but I'm still gonna do it cause I'm trying to win 😅
I'd say if the argument was "you should target X instead, they're the biggest threat!" and you believed them then that is just good misdirection from them (politics is the main aspect of any multiplayer game after all, so it makes sense it's the most important skill in edh). But if they just said "wahhh! I wanted to do my thing! You never let me have fun! Waaahhhhh!!" just smile as you take glee in their misery and remove their stuff 😊 (okay, I'm actually not that horrible in real life haha, but I would still remove their stuff if I considered it the biggest threat, again, in 1v1 I wouldn't stop from killing someone just cause they didn't want to lose, the same is true in multiplayer, it's the aim of the game.)
That's called politics... if they are able to misdirect you, then it's your fault, not them.
@Lyr00 I would say whining is whenever you try to use emotion as a reason not to be targeted rather than trying to make a deal or showing that there are other other good targets. Showing that you'll get upset having your piece removed may cause people to choose other targets but it also takes advantage of the social agreement that everyone is there to have fun and therefore trying to avoid 'feels bad' moments.
@ViXoZuDo no it's not wanting to deal with the player that's acting like a child. Crying about you targeting them and being unfair because it'll stop them from winning the game next turn.
I had a similar experience. I went to MagicCon Vegas this year and had a Thrasios/Tymna Enchantments deck. And the first time I went to sit down and try it out, I got nasty looks and decided to play Piru instead. I felt like, "Well I understand the power of the pairing, and while I know my deck isn't 'that deck' I didn't want everyone to have that experience either way." Had a great time either way!
Replace Thrasios with Kydele and you will get SOOOO many less weird looks. I did that for my 4 color deck and it has been so much easier on me mentally.
I like optimizing decks so I pretty much always play “that deck” and it makes pregame interactions simpler. Except for the commanders no one knows about, but that’s the joy of brewing
I think the observation about players is a good one: an earnest desire to have fun and be good company is kind of all I'm after in a game. I don't mind being the punching bag, or even having the most powerful deck (though I'm less comfortable with that) as long as we're all playing in the right spirit. I don't tend to opt for tutors or too much fast mana - beyond a couple of rocks in most decks - and it means I'm left with a very simple set of decisions every turn: which cards in my hand I can play and which I can't. I'm responsible for that set of simple decisions, so it's kind of on me to do my bit to contribute to the kind of game I want to play in.
Always impressed with how eloquent and comprehensive Joey's videos are.❤
Your Kenrith comments reminded me of how I actively describe my Chulane deck.
“I have this Chulane deck that I built using its Brawl precon as a base, then adding a bunch of lands and creatures I had just lying around to get to an EDH card count, and that really limited its potential power… But at the end of the day, it’s still a Chulane deck and it will absolutely just run away with the game if you let me just do my thing.”
I’m very much the Crim in my group; I’ve learned how to celebrate when an opponent makes the correct threat assessment to figure out what I’m doing needs to be dealt with.
I like the approach that the Worse possible commander show takes. Before the game starts each player reveals the worst possible combination their deck/commander can do so everyone at the table is forewarned.
I told ppl this about nivmizzet and they still dont remove curiosity or deadeye navigator and are suprised when ghyrson goes infinite
@@LoneSkag at least they can’t say they weren’t warned what to expect.
Chandra, Awakened Inferno into emblem that damages you for 1 on your upkeep, then resolve a Worldfire. Problem?
@@veeclash4157 the irony is I took both nivs out and they died to I’m produce 7 goblin tokens…. Everyone take 21
It’s honestly the best “rule zero” method I’ve ever seen
Your timing is impeccable, Joey. I was just talking with my friends about this the other day, about the people who complain you won't allow them to play (some even claim you're 'king making'), yet they are the same people to outright win the game if you give them a millimeter.
Me: never in a position to win but somehow always in a position to choose who wins
Guy at my LGS: "It's not THAT Urza, Lord High Artificer deck"
Same guy 15 minutes later: *wins by attacking with Blightsteel Collossus equipped with Lightning Greaves
Yeah it's That Other Urza, Lord High Artificer deck
@@amiablereaper Not to be confused with that other Urza, Lord High Artificer.
To be fair though as someone who owns “that urza” it doesn’t run neither greaves or blight-steel as they are sub optimal. Though it seems you guys weren’t playing at same level
@@OrignalSithlord Well thats kind of the point, I think. He tried to play it off as a casual deck, so the rest of us played casual decks, and therefore, we were unprepared. At least I learned that "casual Urza" is a very funny joke
@@monateryswiftspearI tried making a casual urza deck basically using just using equipment to throw on the construct urza makes, I think that’s almost as casual that urza can get
The only deck I do this disclaimer to is my super budget Breya deck and even then I do explain that there are infinite combos. Breya herself is still an incredibly powerful commander by herself, but it just got really annoying getting focused down when my board is just a reckless fireweaver and a skyswimmer koi solely from the 'bad pr' of Breya when the person right next to me is literally Thoracle comboing in front of everyone...
I'm working on a Breya deck that is 100% colored artifacts. Nothing else. It sucks that commanders gets pigeon holes and that I can't be trusted when I say that my Ghave deck is fungus tribal based around spore counters and doesn't really even care about Ghave at all. I still get torched just because of his reputation.
@@ryansprenkle6356
I had a Ghave Saprolings deck too. I took it apart to make a Slimefoot and Squee deck instead.
I found out that the best way to make a Saprolings deck is to make a Saprolings deck instead of a Spore Counters deck. Spore counters are too slow. For me, there are enough cards that make Saprolings without using spore counters.
If you want to go the spore route, you will need to look for low power tables. That or stuff the deck with repeatable proliferate effects.
Reckless Fireweaver is definitely a wincon, you know. - Breya Thopters pilot
Breya just blasts people left and right. When I bust out a random deck like mono white rebels and my opponent brings out breya I'm basically just gonna get beat down no matter how allegedly bad their deck is.😂
Its amazing how apologizing can sometimes have the opposite effect. Played a game against a Tivit player, who got the turn one sol ring into signet off a mulligan and with a turn 2 dark ritual and 6 drop commander proceeded to utterly dominate the game from start to finish. He kept saying things like 'I didn't know it was THAT strong" and the like, but it was clear everyone was looking at him like he was an angle shooter.
Dammit tivit. But idk those are such generic pieces it's obvious they got lucky
He was 100% angle shooting. He included Dark Ritual with the intent to get Tivit out faster. It was unlikely that was his only piece of acceleration to make that happen. Tivit is basically unkillable with Ward 4 and 6 toughness and gives you 2 mana back immediately. It's going to be strong no matter what.
Just sounds like a godhand. My klauth dragon deck can win games turn 4 with a god hand when its usually a turn 6-7 deck.
This is why I like cedh. Everybody knows what they’re getting into from the get go. Can’t get mad at anyone when the objective is “win at any cost”.
Cedh is lame. So are you. Imagine wanting to win in 5 turns
@@MisterJ355imagine wanting to play solitaire for 30 turns
I play more magic in those 5 turns than you do in an entire game night in casual edh
@@V2ULTRAKillcedh is a format in which the only viable strategy to win is combo and where a significant part of all cards played in any deck are the same...
Imho if you want to play magic in a competitive way, play modern... That format has way more variety and sideboarding makes the game actually about strategy and skill😂
Absolutely loved this video!
In my LGS' Commander League, I've been a customer/supporter for over a decade and have built the reputation of being 'the fun guy'. I treat every game whether it be casual Commander, semi-competitive Limited/Pre-Release or sanctioned events, as if I'm there to make friends... which IS the reason I'm there. I win some, I lose some, I really don't care... so long as we're all having fun. I have no problem being the punching bag, I get to watch the rest of the game and provide 'MST3K'-like commentary throughout.
If I want to win and feel like I've accomplished something, I go to where I can get that feeling.
If I want to have fun with friends and make new ones, I play Magic: the Gathering.
Commander Leagues are flawed af unless they are cEDH tournaments.
I don't think enough people have experienced what it's like to genuinely see people enjoy playing against them, it's so much more satisfying/fulfiling than plain winning. I have cutthroat decks and decks built to encourage social interaction, the most memorable experiences always always are ones where everyone is laughing over a hilarious interaction/board state.
@@ALymental After every game, I make a conscious effort to tell everyone how much I enjoyed playing. Remembering an interaction in the game or even just joking about our antics, I try to leave a lasting impression. It makes it that much better when tables/opponents are named, you hear your name with the pod and everyone in the pod turns to you... and smiles. You KNOW you're going to have fun! :)
I love beeing the achenemy on the table. It is such a fun experience.
Joey you bring the real conversations about being a good person that is not only relevant to this community but most communities! Thank you!
I had a conversation with a local buddy that was real close to this. I think we boiled down to "Building a to play a game that's suboptimal fun and being ruthless to win" and "Building to play at the strongest decks you can build so that you can just run games for fun". The first is like "we all got a precon, I'm kicking your ass!" And the other is like "we come in with the expectation of power, therefore we can just let the cards play as they fall; you knew what you were stepping into when we started". Both are ABSOLUTELY VALID, and when everyone is open and starting the games on the same page. The problem is when people think they're playing one but building a deck that rests with the other; accidentally or intentionally.
Example for EDH settings: It's one thing to run Miiriym, another to play Roaming throne; it's also OK to run both in the same deck. But if you're running them together: the "Chad" play is to play Roaming throne first, then Miiriam. You're absolutely being "unfun" if you play Miiriym first. You're especially an asshole if you do so, in multiple games, and you recall how the triggers result and what will be the consequences of that two piece combo, but you bungle and fiddlefart your turn clock mapping it out.
FYI, Miirym then RT(Dragon) will make three RT. This means each dragon you cast after will result in 4 individual permanents per cast and 16 ETB effects. RT then Miirym just makes miiryms effect get copied once (so three permanents per cast) and 6 ETB triggers. It's still really strong but alot more fair than the alternative and easier to manage. Also, each RT triggers an addition ward cost, including stacking for RT, they just don't count themselves.
I really enjoyed this video Joey. It was a fun watch that I felt hit a little bit home for me. I am a rather casual player, my play group created silly rules to limit how we play. Mine is based on what brought me back to magic, D&D an other universes beyond products. I loved the dragon based precons for both AFR and CLB and wanted to mix colors together and went URG and found the only commander that fit my style was Miirym. This has led to a mildly frustrating experience with the deck where it is missing a number of parts and still draws out the removal just for the commander's potential. I don't play blink or clone effects since i just wanted big stompy dragons. And i did not include green ramp spells in favor of rocks since dragons like treasure. But I fight half a table most of the time since the commander is so scary. I don't fault the other players since if left alone I will have tons of dragons burning the board. But sometimes it feels like i am just eating up the tables removal until someone else wins. I like the deck and want to play it, but I am lost on if I should optimize it to go full archenemy or just shelf it for rare plays.
Ideas on how to "power down" the deck:
- promise you'll never cast your commander or only cast it if you have literally no other cards in hand. If you really just only want the colors, make your commander the poster child but never play it.
- play only the "bad" dragons, not truly bad, but there are many fun adventure ones and okay ETB ones from Baldurs Gate and Tarkir you could include
- go the opposite route: become archenemy but ONLY play dragons, take out all the removal, sweepers, protection and just let the table know at rule 0 that you're not going to interact, you're just playing big dragons and will swing them at the threat; use politics as your ally there because they know your property now is to be the big stick they can direct at others
- my friends dragon deck plays "group hug" cards to ramp everyone at the table equally and have them all draw so that way everyone gets to play the game and not feel like they're just throwing removal after removal your way
I love this episode and other episodes like this. This is probably the 10th time I've listened to this. Keep up the good work Joey.
Good EP. There's no right answer, which is why videos like this can be made! Expectations, that's my big thing. People show up with their "Prized project" (deck) and want it to work how they envisioned. Anything from temperament of players, other decks, and card choices can affect it.
I have built the new Jin-Gitaxias. As a stimulation, I went SUPER budget, and all cards are .50 or under.
You can still make a great deck with that in mind, but rather than lab man or thoracle, it is leviathan beatdown.
My friends all know Jin is the strength and weakness of the deck, if he goes, no coming back. But every time he loses, I am allowed to change one card for a ~5$ one, because I am always the archenemy and I embrace it.
This encompasses all sliver decks I've ever played against. Someone has been hurt by sliver decks. It didn't matter who the commander was. And we had a wave of new kids excited to play slivers in some form or fashion. If you leave them alone, they take over the game. If you target them, you get the blinders to other threats creeping up on you.
Tribal Slivers usually crumple to a single board wipe though they’re honestly not that scary
Honestly that was the first deck I played it was a fun win never played slivers again (not because it was a bad experience just was to expensive to make a sliver deck)
I have a sliver deck I get it it can consistently push for game turn 4-5.
I don't know how long that intro has been around but it's short and snappy. Big fan! Love this not-quiet long form content
My first game at a store was against a "that deck" player. I'm jamming an upgraded Lord Windgrace precon. He brings out an old-school 5c deck, and as soon as he can, he drops an Armageddon. I almost scooped, but something told me to stick around. I didn't end up winning that game, but I still had the most fun clawing my way back to a playable game.
I have a Meren deck that is "that" Meren value engine aristocrats deck, but on a $100 budget. I'm well aware that putting things like Fleshbag Marauder, Zulaport Cutthroat, Spore Frog, and Skullclamp can make the game feel like it's slowly choking you until I find something like Gary or Living Death to finish it. But it's also fun to see opponents pool resources together to try and kill me first, and I'm very clear that my intent is to dump as much of my deck in the graveyard as possible and pull value from it until I find a splashy spell that leads to a win, as well as because it makes me happy to see all my cards, even if I don't get to use them all that game.
Love the video, one thing I'd like to add is when you're playing a, as you put it, "bad PR" commander and it's not "that deck" maybe describe the deck. Like my Zur deck or my recently built Nekusar deck. Zur was themed around the card Paradox Haze and having multiple upkeep triggers while my Nekusar deck is a Monarch/Initiative themed deck. Talking people through the process certainly helps. I feel.
It's great how the Magic content creator community, the Commander content creator community in particular, enjoy playing with/against each other.
One of the easiest solutions for this problem personally is to just show people my decks before I play them. I know it takes the element of surprise out of them or whatever, but letting other players know that my anje deck has 2 madness cards in it and showing it’s a non combo reanimator deck, tends to mean I actually get to play my commander!
You're a class act. 👏 thanks for reminding me about playing with more grace.
One way my play group avoids these situations (we still end up being 'that player') is to have certain upcoming game days be cedh style. Conversions with friends are super important for a healthy play group.
I think this conversation is interesting because i like to build high power commanders in a suboptimal, unique way.
My favorite deck is my 4c Omnath gates list. Most people see Omnath and groan, but then I play a guildgate on turn one and they go "woah, nice!!" and it starts a conversation.
Can i win on turn 5 if i have omnath, a fetchland, and an amulet of vigor in play by casting reshape the earth? Sure. But its only happened one time, otherwise the deck is durdly as hell and absolutely just uses Omnath as a way to have more mana and speed up the gates plan a bit more than winning on like turn 15.
I have a 5C Kenrith deck on a similar gameplan. It's built around cycling and blinking creatures. The deck was originally a Golos deck, but with Golos getting the hammer, I switched to Kenrith and tried to find the equivalent of the Golos ETB. In all of the games I've played with Golos as the commander, I've only activated him once in maybe 100 games.
Im REALLY interested in this decklist. Do you have it on deckstats, moxfield and such?
@@TheKakasinho I don't know if you were talking to me or the original commenter.
15:00 You said that incredibly well. I love Izzet and I am a total Johnny at heart. The first legendary card I ever pulled was Jhoira and I loved everything about it. I couldn't play it in standard, but then I heard of this format where you play singleton and crazy decks. I was all in, I bought the 2018 Precon got a lot of cheap artifacts and went to my LGS to get instantly and relentlessly hated on for playing artifact storm and not know my deck. It wasn't the ideal version. In my head I was missing all the crazy 0 mana rocks and all that. The fact the deck still played solitaire was a concept I needed to grasp.
nowadays I sit down with my pirate deck that is power (and of course izzet coloured) and some people get careful about the Malcolm Glinthorn combo, but I had other people speak out for me and that my deck is fun. That was the highest honour.
....everything you say is so relatable and easily understandable...
Definitely agree with the "that deck" vs "that player" mentality and have been on both sides of the "that deck" table. Nothing is more annoying than the guy that says I swear this isn't a cedh deck..and then proceeds to combo off turn 3-4. (Guy literally pulled out a list and said see its not the cedh list cause its missing mana crypt and 3 dual lands.)
I also feel like knowing what your deck is capable of and being honest about it. My favorite deck is my Merieke ri berit deck. Its main goal is to win using my opponents cards so it doesn't really win the game on its own. But it does have some fairly staxy combos (aura thief and enchanted evening) that make it a strong deck. When I bring it out I try to be as honest as possible about its potential because of how it scales. (If I know someone has a blightsteel in their deck, you might see me play a blightsteel) and that comes from the knowledge of having played the deck for years.
If you play a deck only a few times or just built a commander from the newest precon/set you might not be aware of some unexpected combos. And thats ok just be honest about it. If I am testing a new deck I will let the table know.
However, if the commander has been out for a little while, try to do a little research about the target your putting on your back. People are going to be a lot more forgiving of a "I didn't realize this Doctor Who commander did that." Compared to "I didn't realize Tergrid could do that".
I am a very old school player and I remember hearing groans every game because I played Rafiq of the Many. My deck didn't have a single sword and was actually more of a bant control deck. I mostly used Rafiq to close out the game. Once my play group figured that out it was no longer an issue so much so that when a new player would join the pod my friends would let them know I wasn't playing "the Rafiq deck." I found it comes down to mentality like you said. When I showed that I am not trying to smash face via Rafiq with a sword, the stigma went away. But I had to earn that trust. It takes time and if you are not willing to go through that step then perhaps "those commanders" are not the best experience for you. Honest communication is key (much easier with a regular play group).
"It's not THAT deck"
"Hey, is there anyone at this LGS that has played against it and can verify that claim? No? You're going down, buddy"
I was watching this video thinking about the Koma deck I'm building and whether or not I'd be able to make it strong, but not overpowered, so that I could be a challenging opponent to my plaugroup without actually being a problem... and then Koma gets name dropped at 8:36. Well played, Joey, well played.
It's ok to give up too! I tried really, REALLY hard to make my Kiki-Jiki deck not have any infinite combos, it's just not possible! the second I introduce any kind of synergy I run into different 4 to 5 cards combo. But I like the deck, so I warn people and well if it happens it happens!
Owning up to it makes it a much more fun experience for people that play against me, because they're not suprised when it happens and can even try to figure out what cards could end up going infinite, and that's fun!
So yeah, sometime the awnsers to your deck problems isnt to make deck swaps, it's just to accept thats what your deck does.
I been kinda diggin the social introspective videos with joey.
I agree with the comment talking about the cohesiveness of your videos! So, thank-you.
I'm running out of nails for you guys to hit in the head. You guys just consistently make my favorite magic content
This is why I've mostly stepped away from commander.
I built some decks i was really proud of and kept showing up to play at my LGS and it eventually ended in a game of Archenemy where i became the villain.
I can't build decks that don't align with my play style, and that play style revolves around building a strong deck that stands a chance at winning.
I've just come to the conclusion this format isn't necessarily for me. However, I do love when everyone plays pre-cons. That's fun.
Yep, being shamed for building a great deck with a reliable engine is rather toxic, but here we are. "NO, YOU CANT PLAY THE DECK YOU HAVE BEEN BUILDING FOR 4 YEARS BECAUSE I DONT LIKE IT!" This attitude is arguably more toxic than anything else.
Well said. Great video 🧙♂️
I have to make this speech every time I play my Atraxa Energy deck. “Yes it is Atraxa, but there is no infect or planeswalkers in here.”
Idk I threw in the oko planeswalker to elk stuff in my atraxa deck
Doesn't matter atraxa on it's own is just an incredibly strong card. The more casual you get the more of a threat atraxa becomes. In high power I couldn't care less about the atraxa itself it whatever the deck is doing that needs to be stopped. In low power casual games a 4/4 lifelink, flying, vigilance, death touch is constant commander damage and if you attack them you are losing something.
I had this happen at my LGS last week. Sat down with a couple of players I hadn't met and asked who they were running. One guy says, "Oh, I'm running a pauper deck just testing it out." It was Tatyova. I asked if he ran all of the combos in it, and he looked at me funny and said there was only 1 combo. Long story short, dude followed the entire cPDH decklist and primer and won lol I saved all of my interaction for him and he still pulled through.
In my playgroup my Alesha deck is considered "that guy" as it has Master of Cruelties and a lot of combos. I enjoy winning immediately with an unfair animation, but that being said- I don't mind being useless all game
I've only played commander for about a year or two, and when I opened a Korvold, Fae-Cursed King awhile ago I immediately thought it would be cool to build. When I decided to start building it I started as a treasure token theme but quickly realized that was going to be incredibly strong to have a free sacrifice and also gain mana for it, I decided I didn't want to go that hard and wanted something a bit less common so I decided on making food tokens and rat tokens when I saw how much support was in Wilds of Eldraine for those tokens.
I had no idea how much Korvold was hated when I built the deck, and I feel like I'm not playing "THAT Korvold" deck, but also I recognize that Korvold is just super powerful no matter what, so I still expect to be archenemy and have added in more protection into the deck, and I'm not going to argue that someone should let Korvold live because the deck isn't optimized, he definitely deserves his kill on sight rep. I've asked some people to look through the deck and have been told it's not nearly as oppressive as it could be, but to expect a lot of hate regardless, because it is still Korvold.
I had a buddy a few years ago that would scoop the second anyone countered or removed his Gishath. Even if he had enough mana to recast it next turn. It became a running joke that it was an easy way to win the game.
I used to be the guy who really hated counterspells and blue, not to the point of raging about it but to the point of starting to build around it. Eventually I was running a Dragonlord Dromoka deck that was just no fun. Not only did the commander stop my opponents from casting spells on my turn but I was also running cards to stop activated abilities and even land destruction. I became the no fun allowed villain I always thought blue was.
Don't be like me kids, don't let your hatred of blue turn you into the villain, embrace the losses and play fun decks instead.
Your friend sounds like the most immature player and I would definitely kill or counter his commander at the first chance every game. 2 mana remove target player will always be worth it.
I had a person I played vs that would concede to Emrakul the Promised End. So, after a few times, the ability was renamed to “target (person) loses the game.” Was the most fun not taking a person turn lol
@@Playingwithproxies Every counterspell or path to exile basically read "Player A loses the game"
I'm not sure I would joke about that, or it is an easy way to alienate that person. It sounds like a heart to heart was in order instead.
I'm not in any EDH groups but lately I'm thinking of finding one and intentionally being The Heel sounds really fun lol
Assume it's that deck until you have reason to believe otherwise.
I'm glad you used atraxa as an example because I've actually said that exactly line when I played my atraxa energy deck. I don't think I hand many counters that weren't energy counters.
On the topic of "Not that Deck" I gave up on Rafiq due to its PR, as you say. What's funny is that I built it in the same manner as my Mr. Orfeo deck, yet Rafiq would always be removed IMMEDIATELY, whereas Orfeo is almost never removed. The style of the decks had to do with the use of creatures that got bigger/scaled with what my opponents would do; the more broken things my opponents do, the bigger the swing via the damage doubling. It just goes to show how much PR alone will affect how people threat assess a commander, even if it does almost exactly what another one does. The other reason why I find Orfeo almost never targeted is because people's initial reaction to seeing him is, "Oh, so it's just a weaker Xenagos, but with black."
Very nice discussion.
People love Darth Vader.
Boos from the crowd are his applause.
He is the villain and the threat and almost never apologizes for it. People love him for it.
If you're going to be darth vader, be Darth Vader.
I've never felt so called out in the first 30 seconds of a video haha. My Yidris deck is my dragon tribal deck built to cast Dragonstorm. Hopefully you'll get to play against it this weekend at CommandFest!
Why not play a different commander? Curious.
@@VexylObbyDragonstorm is one of my favorite cards from when I started playing in high school, and he's the only commander I can think of that can really make it work. It's also still pretty strong and avoids the main thing people don't like about Yidris decks, which is the super long turns.
I imagine there are tons of Temur dragons options too that try to cast many spells in a turn. I will also say, Storm has a rough place in commander. It requires to to cast a lot of spells. And is that a fun play pattern to play against? Tons of other effects I have had to discord because they just don't make sense for a four player game.@@FightinTheGorlax
@@VexylObby Dragonstorm is the only storm card in the deck, so the vast majority of the time it plays closer to a jodah deck where I'm just cascading once a turn off a big dragon into another dragon
TBH, you could probably still have a great time running this card in a deck that only casts 3 spells before it. As long as you make it to turn 6 and have decent card draw. You are getting at least 3 dragons out of this.@@FightinTheGorlax
Meanwhile, me during FNM:" Hey guys, I brought my Jodah deck and YES it's THE Deck."
I enjoy my Archenemy status
But ive also been the guy at a new pod who sees someone plop down a narset, panics, playes my hyper tuned vohar reanimayor deck and anccidentally RUNS the table over
I remember when I removed a Deadeye Navigator from the board, and the player playing it threw a fit, saying, "I wasn't going to combo off anytime soon, I just needed a creature on the board!". That's all well and good, and probably true, but it's also almost certainly true that he wouldn't give us a heads up and let us take a turn cycle to respond if he had drawn that Peregrin Drake a turn or two later. When I eventually comboed off, several turns later, he was still pissed off about losing his Navigator in the early turns and blamed me for ruining the game.
The other guys were talking about how cool my win was and how powerful the combo was and such, but he kept butting in to gripe about the one removal spell that went his way against a decidedly powerful card. It ruined the rest of our conversation and put a serious damper on what should've been a really great moment, as it was a combo I'd thought of months before being able to build and play the deck. I'd never seen it before or since and it should have been a cherished memory. (Since I know someone will ask, I landed a Followed Footsteps on a non-legendary copy of Adrix and Nev, Twincasters)
Anyways, this is a great example of how much worse it is to be "that player" than it is to play "that deck". He might not have had the combo, but he ruined the rest of our experience just because he felt my removal spell was unfair since he didn't have the combo. But seriously, what's more unfair, ruining a whole game for everyone or ruining just one turn for one player?
I run a Narset, Enlightened Master Superfriends deck. I used to just say “it’s not extra turns”.
Within the last three years, I’ve had the deck for 5 or 6 now, I’m always honest that “it’s not extra turns, but it is superfriends and it is easily my strongest deck” when I play it. It’s opening the conversation honestly.
I know I underestimated its power level early into having the deck, by a lot. Now I’m honest that I think it’s easily the strongest I have and what’s in it. If I get targeted out of the game for running it, I accept that fate.
I have an Ur-Dragon deck and I do run Korvold, Fae-Cursed King as part of the 99 knowing he definitely does have a PR problem with many people. My friends were pretty chill about it especially since I only use him as a face beater who happens to be a dragon that draws you cards as oppose to a big combo piece. I can only imagine when I start playing with others though lol.
i had a „it’s not that deck“ situation with my own deck online on spelltable. I was playing my Ur-Dragon deck and the other guys didn’t listen to me during the pre game talk, the thought i was playing a way to overpowered dragons deck for the table. but my deck is a real „it’s not that deck“. It’s an othersized card only with 40 basics, 59 oversized creatures and planeswalkers and Ur-Dragon as the commander because he gives my the colour identity
I usually try to give the benefit of the doubt as something similar happened to me. My pod we usually play upgraded precons and we try not to kill someone right away so everyone has a chance to do something (if someone is mana screwed or mana flooded we live him alone some turns and so on) so games tend to go up to almost 2h and maybe like 15 turns or so. So we decided to brew and build a deck from scratch with a 150€ budget. As I loved kamigawa and had always wanted to play the hondens (tried to make a 60 card deck a few time to no avail before we started playing commander) I decided to go for go-shintai and play the new shrines, and the sanctums which i didnt even knew they existed prior to this.
Used all the shrine cards, got some of the enchantress deck core and added a bunch of fun and busted enchants I found while searching randomly for enchants on gatherer and goldfished a couple times to see how it would work out. Coming in to the game I knew it would eventually pop-off but I thought it would take 10+ turns at least as when goldfishing it usually took 8 turns on average without taking my opponents interaction into account.
Game night comes, I got sanctum of all on my opening hand, a couple draw enchants and an early drawn hallowed haunting and the green sanctum shrine which gives mana. With sanctum of all tutored into the green honden and by turn 6 I took half the life from each opponent and by turn 7 the other half. It performed a lot better than I was expecting and the next 2 games got targeted so hard the ur-dragon player ended up stomping xD Nowdays I only play it at the end of the night when we wanna get a fast game while waiting for dinner to arrive and usually get the win. My favourite game was one in which I managed to kill one opponent with the honden of infinite rage, kill another through battle damage with my spirits + spirit clerics and mill the last opponent with the bmue go-shintai, all in the same turn hahahaha
5:25 On the subject of "How strong is your deck?" I've found that opponents are more likely to view me as fair if I offer a little rationale *alongside* my number rating instead of just giving a number. Such as, "My deck's strategy is well thought out and uses optimized cards but I'm also not going to combo off on turn 3.".
For a while the only deck i had was my Atraxa deck. It was "that Atraxa Deck". I usually tell the table that they have to put in all of the removal and stifles they can.
I’ve had a “baunt” golem tribal deck for a few years. Basically I wanted to play all the original splicers in one deck. I originally chose Chulane as the commander, but eventually switched to Amareth. Now, that deck is about to go onto its third commander with Brenard
I have a sissay, weatherlight captain deck but she is my dungeon delving deck. So when people give it a scared look because she can do some crazy stuff. My deck just goes off because I am speed running the dungeons hahah.
It's so weird to think there are some players that don't understand "not that deck" it's not wrong you don't know what tergrid does but it is wild to consider how different our experiences of the game are.
I had play with the seme people for several years; We had some of the situations that you talk about. for me what has worked the most its to play in a kind of "stair" were i get to play my jankiest decks first and as the games progress i got to play my fav deck wich its optimized, this has teach my friends when to keep me in check while playing some decks and when to spare me some hate and has though me how to play in a more relaxed way, sure im gonna lose some games with low power decks, but eventually i got to play mi higher powered ones in hopes to win
Thing with this being a multiplayer game is that people have different ideas of fun. I tend to play in a more casual pod, someone brought their friend who had only played at his lgs, the guy played a full control with tons of land destruction and had a blast doing it. We politely asked him to bring something else or just play with his other group. He brought Urza.
Really nice dude outside the game tbf.
Ninjas have always been my favorite tribe, dating back before yuriko was a thing. Got yuriko the moment it came out and played it for years with my playgroup who knew it had no extra turn bs. For reasons I won't get into I'm not in that group anymore, and now I do wish there was another ninja commander, since ik I won't be able to get good games with yuriko while the table assumes I have stuff that I just don't
Satoru Umezawa is a great commander for a ninja deck.
But he also has a bad rep. Not as bad as Yuriko, but still kinda bad.
@eternaleclypse also a bad rep as you said, and his payoff honestly isn't that good for just using ninjustsu. Satoru is a case where if I ever played him I'd just rather play "that" version of him lol
Have you tried the grixis Satoru? It's cheap, adds another color and isn't well known enough to have much of a reputation at all in my experience. Plus you get to make dragons!
Satoru is fun to turbo out big stupid stuff. He basically runs Yuriko's enablers, and they share at least half the cards.
I did a ship of theseus with my Kenrith deck because one player in my group really *really* hated it despite it being very slow (on purpose). So now it's "oops, all activated abilities" Tazri, and I still get to use Kenrith's abilities but they are in creatures in the 99 and, to my surprise, it's much more fun.
On the other hand, my "it's not that Zur" is actually not _that_ powerful (taking into account the high floor of a repeatable tutor). Its game plan is animating a bunch of enchantments and beating face, but I still don't dare to use it with strangers on Spelltable because I know he's a really scary one.
I also have a warrior-typal Najeela without the ability to generate infinite extra combat steps, but again, try explaining that to someone who got stomped by a top tier Najeela!
Dismantled my Koma deck for this reason exactly.
Loved the deck and it demolished the table, rarely EVER losing, but I noticed that people started becoming demotivated by my deck with all the counters and protection, always having answers to everything. It wasn’t ‘that’ Koma deck, but it being a Koma deck was enough to be ridiculously oppressive and a huge threat every single game.
Then I went and discussed it with them. Ended up agreeing on the fact that Koma as a commander is simply too overpowering for the level we play at our table.
The games are so much more fun when everyone is having a good time!
I usually play Jodah the Unifier only as a Human tribal deck. I know most people have played against him but I already know what I'm getting into knowing his reputation. Recently I built him as a Doctor Who theme deck built around the Doctors and their Companions. The fun way to win is with Gallifrey Stands. Even if I don't win with Jodah often I'm the kind of person that will tell you: "This is the game we play so no worries." Most people love getting games in with me because my decks may not be powerful but they love my themes and how I play older cards no one hasn't thought about or seen before. At the end of the day, it's all about seeing how people play and just chillin while slinging spells.
You have literially named two of my decks.
Deveri, Bird Tribal (which I built as soon as it was printed) and I relatively recently built Beamtown Bullies group hug/slug, I need to explain every time that I am not playing leveller or eater of days. I am playing a whole lot of all players or all opponents cards. Its the Beamtown Bros, they aren't bullying anyone I don't know what you mean. When one of my win cons is Living Death I can' have too many nasty cards or I ruin myself.
Deveri does still have the capacy to go completely nuts because that card is very strong but on a very different usually easily solved by a wrath kind of way.
I've got a friend who built a Nicol Bolas control/discard deck. Well actually, what he built was a cool Nicol Bolas themed Vorthos deck, containing a lot of cards the referenced Bolas or actions he did in the story. So it's got a lot of Jank cards in it with Amass themes.... But it also holds brutal counterspells and gain control and discard effects that will make the average EDH player cry.
But the point is, it's still a really fun deck that I dont mind him pulling out to the table. It's honestly pretty neat a story deck functions this well. But we are able to navigate the game carefully so that there are not as much feels bads with such a famously irritating (But still valid) strategy
Literally could not agree with this more. As 'the sliver player' in my group (still my favorite deck), and really when playing any of my decks, I do my best to make sure that regardless of power factor and even if I'm the Big Bad(tm) for the moment, I try not to be *that* player. Make sound tactical moves, keep your position, etc, but don't be a social villain as well as the tabletop one because they are VERY different things.
Sometimes that means missing out on really strong plays that would have won a game NOW vs winning a bit later but having a more fun time with the group. Sometimes that just means not winning even though you COULD have if you did that special combo that runs away with the table. But for me at least, I don't care about winning nearly as much as I want to play the game and have fun. If I win and everyone is salty about it or I had to gut people's play or sucker punch my way there, that's a loss in my book.
And in all honest, the victories I manage that are by the skin of my teeth and the last couple points of life are the most gratifying. Similarly the losses that were hard fought and well played by the opponent without making it so I COULDN'T play at all are the most enjoyable as well.
Me, combo-ing off with Nekusar:
"Some of you may die, but it is a sacrifice I am willing to make."
I've dragged a number of my friends into MtG, and commander by proxy, cause that is all I play. For a long time, I was the archenemy of every game, and yet, I was also the mentor. I miss those days when I would have to pause someone's turn to walk them through trigger stacking or interactions that would give them a significant advantage. Now, all my friends are competent players with powerful decks, and I don't win anymore. I've never given a flying hell about winning, I just want cool shit to happen.
One of my favorite games of all time... I was playing Ashaya, and another player at our LGS was playing Phenax, and my buddy was playing some lightly modified precon. He was spinning his wheels but gaining no traction. I combo'd off with infinite Mana, but I didn't have a sink for it, but I had an animist's awakening. I got all the Lands out of my deck, put them on board and passed. The Phenax player top decked that card that mills someone until they hit two lands. My library gone, he passes his turn. My friend takes his turn, then passes. I'm dead on draw. So, during my upkeep, I use one of my combo pieces, Mirage Mirror, to copy HIS Phenax. Ashaya taps, and mills him for 70 something cards, the rest of his library. I take my L with a grin, and pass. Phenax player digs through his graveyard, realizes he's beat, takes his L laughing at the absurdity, and passes. My buddy wins by doing absolutely nothing, and is pogging out of his gourd. It was the best thing ever.
Detach your enjoyment of the game from victory. Just relax and have a good time with good people.
I need a supercut of Joey saying "That" a million times XD
This is me with my Derevi Bird Tribal deck. They see the commander and think “oh god stax”, but once I play a few 1 cost 1/1 flyers people usually calm down.
Someone at our store has a Derevi bird tribal. If I'm in a pod with him, I'll gladly go to bat for it and vouch that it's not "that deck," because I've seen it played.
I put all my decks on moxfield with a little blurb on its wincons, combos, amount of fast mana and tutors as well as a general bit of strategy.
Stuff like "ub superfriends with chainveil combo, some counters and boardwipes, no stax, only pw tutors, no fast mana other than sol. Wins via turns or +1/+1 counters on creatures, all boardstate based."
I find this gives people enough to base a judgement call of the deck on to decide how powerful it is.
I got really lucky with my “that deck” experience, when I had decided to use omnath locus of rage as my first deck that I built myself, when people found out that was what I was building they did give me a warning about playing him and my reaction was “cool then I guess you’ll consider me a threat finally” and we were all laughing about it (I had been playing magic for about 3 months at this point). We started playing the game and it was really fun they allowed me to show off the deck that I was so proud to build and honestly they let me enjoy the game, not saying that they went easy on me but I didn’t feel targeted and over time when I started making upgrades it got to the point where I became the archenemy but we always enjoyed it, it’s always my jelly bean army against the world and I still enjoy those games to this day (although it has gotten to the point where my bf has a burning vengeance against my omnath deck)
I was playing with a new deck at my LGS with some people I had played with for a few times. I did t realize I had put an infinite combo in the deck on accident and when I drew it I just asked the table about it and if they wanted to keep playing and I just decided to not assemble it. I was still proud of the deck even though I didn’t win, and I still had fun.
Sometimes Joey mentions a shocked silence and pall that falls over the room after a game of Magic. I feel like he's playing with much more dramatic people than I do.
This can be a really hard thing to grasp for new decks. I’ve put together something once and had no clue whether or not what I made was a problem such that the reputation of the deck was or wasnt warrented. Sometimes, you just gotta jam some games, and listen to everything being said. Sometimes, you make something busted and disgusting, and you just gotta own it, and know for later the deck is relegated for higher power than you thought
I’ve found that the best way to alleviate the power level issue in general is to discuss the basic strategy of your deck. How does it accrue value? How does it want to win? What’s its play pattern? Is it more explosive or consistent? The more communication, always the better!
As someone who relishes making weird versions of commander decks, I regularly have to have the whole "It's not THAT deck" convo.
My favorite deck that I've ever made is Narset Superfriends. It is incredibly fun and ridiculous and basically either crashes and burns or goes off into utter insanity. The first time people see it though, they always presume it's like most other Narset, Enlightened Master decks that just use every extra turn spell in the game to either prod or go Super Saiyan Voltron to win... which I get is super annoying.
I think a good way to handle it is just to allow people to scoop out of the game without being a dick about it... of course, asking some MTG players to not be a dick is like asking Star Wars fans to not bitch about the recent content... but at a certain point, that sort of behavior warrants just cutting out the problematic person.
Funny that you showed Talion as the example. After I built mine I was wondering what people put in theirs. Talion is cool because he can kinda go any route. The edhrec page was basically just cash. Any expensive card you can imagine, was on his page. Laughed my ass off when after 10 cards the deck would have been pricier than my whole collection.
I find this Talion situation sad. When he was freshly spoiled I crafted a clone build, to get all the numbers named as something jank to accomplish. You could just name 1-4 a few times and draw quite a lot. Didn’t realize people would just do goodstuff, not even fairy tribal.
I think that is common (particularly for Dimir as the most expensive colour combo) with Commanders that don’t really do anything except provide card draw. There is no particular synergy to build around with a Commander like Talion. You just play a staples tribal as it were… and draw extra cards.
"Do you dump your entire deck on the table?"
I do run Guided Passage, yes :P
I remember one of my first games on spelltable. I joined a lobby that said “super casual” or something to that affect. I remember we all takes about the kind of game we wanted to have. Then the guy who made the lobby revealed he was playing niv mizzet, parrun. After a few minutes if the rest of us asking if he had another deck he could play, and him assuring us it wasn’t anywhere close to the cEDH list, we let him play that deck. He won on turn 4. When we asked him after the game why he lied about his power level, he said “it’s not my fault you guys didn’t run interaction”. I would’ve respected him if he just ate the bullet and said he just really wanted a win, for whatever reason.
I've found myself a niche in building notoriously-broken commanders in silly lower-powered ways. I often use "it's not THAT deck" as a sort of soft introduction so that I can then go "here are some details about what it actually is" like "it's Narset tokens with Fallen Empires storage and tapped lands, no counterspells or extra turns or combat, and my ramp is mana batteries" or "it's Chulane morph where all of the interaction is modal spells with Charm in the name" or "it's Tivit group hug with an emphasis on voting; there are some artifact-token win cons and there do exist two voting cards with extra turns on them but they're not the purpose of the deck so much as handing out card draw and tokens" because keeping my game plan an absolute secret only increases suspicion. Ultimately, I'm the one who decided to build the infamous commander. If someone doesn't want to take me at my word that I intend to play a fair game anyway, that's fine. Worst case, I switch to something they're comfortable seeing across the table instead, because sometimes people are just sick of playing against the commander I've picked.
This is almost what happened when I played Teysa last Saturday. We played in a group of three because there was no fourth person in the club. We played several games, I won once but nothing criminal, just my opponents were unlucky to have no answers for my threats.
Then fourth guy came and asked about power level in our playgroup. I was silent, but one of my opponents said:
This guy is playing Eldrazi, a very expensive and flavorful, but not very powerful version of them, I play my golgari superfriends, a potent deck if you don't pay attention to my plainswalkers, and this guy (me) plays Teysa. But it's not that Teysa, idea of the deck is the same, but this is kinda normal Teysa with some really good end expensive cards combined with some very strange decisions.
Fourth guy took his less powerful deck, and I demolished all my opponents by turn seven by tutoring into boardwipe while I have Teysa and Blood Artist in play, and my opponents have billion of creatures. Only one of them survived that hurricane of triggers, but resigned anyway because I was way ahead on resources due to my skullclamp.
While the only "that deck" I've played is Niv-Mizzet (which I am straightforward in saying it's combo), I have had to earn my fellow players' trust with mechanically unique commanders (I have the handle Zeriphon on MTGCardsmith). It helps that it's generally a little lower-powered than my regular play-group.
Niv-Mizzet has always felt extremely fair to me. It's hard to think of it as "that deck". Sure, it's a 2 card combo, but the commander is 6 specific pips to get out, it only combos with 3 cards, and my only shot at tutoring for any of them is a Gamble, which just as often as not seems to lose me my combo piece. There's almost no chance I can pull off the win before turn 7 unless I run every broken piece of fast mana, and if you kill him once, I might not even get to cast him again. Really doesn't feel oppressive
This is the heart of why Golos got banned. There is a "That deck" Golos, but every other build is hyper efficient and resilient.
This is a very interesting topic, I personally agree with the character of Crim. He is the very well adjusted villain who’s reveling and relishing in his villainy, is good at it and is utterly enjoying it. I think that should be the way to go for playing that deck, if the table doesn’t like it you don’t have to serve the table that experience.