Bizarre Poker: The Overbet & Hand Reveal That Surprises Everyone
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 8 ก.ค. 2024
- In this video, the caller faces an overbet all in that in doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Bart and the caller analyze what the hand ranges could be and the reveal is quite surprising. This was from 5/10 no limit and was unconventional to say the least. In live cash game poker we have to use all the information available to us and logically deduce what bet size and patterns could mean. Occassionally we get involved in hands that defy logic.
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0:00 - Intro
0:24 - Preflop
2:12 - Flop
9:16 - Turn
12:49 - Hero Decision
12:53 - Reveal
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What would you do in this turn spot when it doesn't make a whole lot of sense? Are you flicking in the call?
It’s a bizarre spot for sure, but would probably call without additional info. Reduced risk of aces or kings because of preflop and ended up more than just a few times against jacks in particular when villain freaks out and combos overvalue hand/uncertain/out of position/overfear of overcard on river.
But haven’t played much 5/10 at all so this might be more of a small stakes thing.
I've been 5 bet with 88 by an old man, who then jammed flop on a board like this. I've seen a random 6 take this line. I've run into quads like this. I've run into AA and KK from an old man who CC my EP open, allowing several more CC behind, just praying to hit a low board where they can cooler an underpair (not realizing all the downsides and EV loss associated with that strategy). Overall I would say this line skews heavily towards KK+, for the simple reason you already alluded to in video, which is hero calling the x/r turns our hand face up as a strong overpair. Unless villain is action/maniac, all the bluffs and middling pairs give up after that. The good news is that this reveal means that villain will reliably overvalue 1 pair hands, we can 3bet them mercilessly without fear of 4bet, and get stacks in when we hit.
AA could sometimes be playing like this if the middle position player have some kind of weird stack that he is always folding or jamming to a 3bet.
Not knowing the player personally...I'd have to go with my instinct on dealing with any "old guy reg" that gets aggressive....think he's got the bigger pocket pair. It's crazy, but some scenarios (especially if there's a high hand promotion going on) where people don't raise at all with premium pairs. They will raise (or bet) turns, but hardly ever check raise. This guy must have played enough to know board textures though and figures he has the best hand.
Turn?? I'd fold it to the flop raise!
I mean this call just illustrates that a good chunk of live players don't have a 4 bet range and even with callers inbetween, we shouldn't necessarily take QQ+/AK out of their ranges at any point.
I think this a lesson in hand reading. I totally agree with the pre-flop logic where our hand reading removes AA & KK. But once things go off the rails I think it's time to re-evaluate. We have to try & make sense of his post-flop play. And when thinking of that I agree that something like TT makes no sense. Does JJ? Not really, but maybe once in a blue moon. Then there's the guy in his 60s thing. I think we have to re-introduce the idea of KK. I still think AA is quite strange. I'm not sure why the villain jammed for over-pot on turn.
At any rate, villain fooled me. My read here was KK. On the other hand, hero loses to that also.
I see this a lot in my local card rooms. Old guys will slow-play big hands pre, hoping to hit the high-hand or bad-beat, and curse the dealer if they have to fold post-flop. They'll keep slow-playing the pure nuts, but otherwise they blast off for max value with their hidden monster. This is never JJ or worse. Always AA/KK, and usually AA. Crazy enough - I've also seen OMC's do this in tournaments, where there is no high-hand or bad-beat. It's like they think this is how you play AA/KK - trap pre, blast off post, unless the board is super-connected, in which case fold and curse the dealer.
I totally disagree with pre-flop logic of no AA/KK. That logic ignores V range by action, position and profile. Well, ... instead, the "analysts" speaking about particular hand all time (67, 56, AK,... bla, bla). Plus: it's sad to see that experienced pros never heard of someone playing pocket pairs passively on purpose. Never heard of pre flop trapping??
Whenever I hear "He isn't supposed to have AA-KK here or he's supposed to fold 76s pf", it reminds me of Doyle's old saying about going broke in an unraised pot. The concept is the same in reading the villain here. He's an unknown who isn't clueless, so you can't discount any legitimate holding. Remember Doyle's other old saying - only good players can be bluffed cause bad players never fold. Hero is obv a thinking player who got trapped. It happens.
At LLSNL, I see a lot of older people trapping with KK and AA preflop. With MDF being 40%, let's say hero has TT-AA in this spot, so 30 combos. With no reads, maybe fold TT-QQ (60%) and call KK-AA (40%). 223 big blinds, SPR of 7.5 on flop...tough spot - my gut said fold.
This call illustrate why some thought process have to exist for certain players. Just because you as a thinking player understands that's a 4 bet with A's with dead money out there doesn't mean every player understands that concept.
My brain was screaming FOLD!!!!!! Yeah I'm never calling there from the description of the player and the overzealous manner in which he wanted to get the chips in the middle.
No awareness of value the entire time.
I see this play all the time from that player type in my local 1/3 and 2/5 games.
Are pot brownies +EV?
Before work it’s -EV
Maybe we're not giving the villain enough credit here?
you nailed it! The guy flied under the radar on purpose, of course...and as a result got H stacked!! If he 4-bet, then it's a different hand, and H would never called in.
@@pot_kivach160 Agreed. He's taking a risk by letting the 3rd player in. But when he gets a dry flop like this he can play for stacks. His hand looks like a medium pair that's being way overplayed. It's brilliant IMO.
I do not know the hosts name of this TH-cam channel, but he sneaks one in under the ego Radar of caller Josh. "IF this villain has RESPECT for you...."
Pausing after the turn jam. If the villain can have A5s here I think it's equally as possible for the villain to have A4 s. There only 2 combos, but it does make sense if he puts the hero on AK or even boardway suited cards to X/R the flop. Then on the turn he hits a fullhouse.
You think this 65 year old gentleman has A4s and A5s? 😂😂😂
@@erodixius3438 It was Bart that suggested A5s. If A5s is in the gentlemans range than A4s is equally as likely. In fairness not all 65 year old players play the same. I imagine at that level even the older player do some level of studying.
While I’m seeing a lot of comments saying “respect the villain more” absolutely not, if they played this and the hero has the rest of their range. The villain almost never gets the max, they played awfully and happened to get paid, the amount of results orientated thinking is wild.
If villain knew he would play against only two other players going into the flop, then I could see him playing Ace's this way. I played KK similarly and trippled up when the flop came K 54. Smooth called villain's bet, second player goes all in and villain and I call. Villain shows QQ, while other player shows 54o.
This looks like a Hellmuthian spaz-out with the nuts. It essentially says, "I have the nuts right now, but things might change and that scares me. So, I'm going to get the money in now before my opponent has an opportunity to outdraw or outplay me."
You’re giving the average player too much credit if you think they’re adjusting correctly to multiway spots. If it’s clear that it’s ok to call with AA heads up, then there’s a good chance they’ll also do it when it’s not heads up.
Ya that’s my thought too. If he’s an old man coffee then he’s probably not comfortable with 4 betting pre and doesn’t take into account the flatter
"old man didn't 4-bet his AA or KK so I refused to put him on it and got stacked." lmao, this must happen 1,000 times a day throughout card rooms. People fkn love to slowplay AA and KK.
Looking at this from the perspective of the villain, this line makes sense. He could have played it slower to avoid losing value to folds, but ripped it on the turn to get a crying call from AK, maybe even QK, and all of the inferior overpairs that decide to get sticky, with the mindset of, "Even if I'm behind, I still have outs," mentality. I promise you that if he knew the hero had QQ, that hand 100% would have been played differently! It would have all gone in on the flop at the latest
You would be surprised how often you can stack a pre-Flop 3-better by flatting Aces. Obviously, never if it's going to end up 4-way.
Because "thinking" players immediately eliminate AA, KK, AK because you DIDN'T 4-bet, it's a nice line to mix in at around 25-33% frequency.
Villain would still have stacked hero if he’d 4-bet.
All he did by playing it this way is risk a K landing on the flop with the pot still small.
@@JohnSmith-nx7zj Exactly, far too many action killing cards on the flop.
Plus if you don't 4 bet, you don't fold out all sorts of random stuff that can Crack your hand as well as the prime rule of poker being that you want to get as much money in the middle while you are ahead.
only bad players do this, the amount of times ive seen people lose with AA because they decided to get cute is funny
@@DSR505same, so many times I’ve seen old nits try to slow play aces and get cracked immediately
How do you take your coffee?
Old guys aren't playing smaller pairs that aggressively. Some of them may throw in a big bluff once in awhile, but if its 1/20 or less, I don't care. You got me! Same thing with young tight (postflop) players. If they make moves once in a million years I'd better be damn sure I know what they have which is pretty rare.
75 year old here. Bart and the callers do use the OMC quite a bit. And it’s accurate mostly. I’ve learned to use it to my advantage. Bluffs will bet through a lot more from us geezers. Never ever show a bluff. If you use the info this site offers and play like a thinking player you can fool a lot of younger players. Best compliment I ever got at the table was after I stacked a kid and he said, “F*Coker don’t PLAY old. (Responding to the poster below)
I agree. I have at least two thinking players that told me when I bet big that I always have it when I bet big. I NEVER show a bluff. Well, I did once because it was an awesome bluff that got a guy to fold Aces with three kings on the board. If good players believe I always have it when I bluff, I’m in a winning position.
Amen. And I ALWAYS show the nuts even if folded to on the river. Boost that nit image.
disagreed. If never shown bluff, then you'd rarely get called by a strong hand hand when holding the nuts! b/c people might think "he's never bluffing, why would I risk my stack with second nuts and lose".
On contrary: the purpose of showing the bluff (sometimes) is to confuse the players at the table, and get them called your monster hand with a bluff catcher!
I was saying fold flop. If your calling flop, might as well push flop and become semi bluff
I know this is insanely exploitable, but I'm folding here. Seen older guys trap AA/KK this way too many times to think he's doing this with any hand we beat.
if you're folding "here" why haven't you folded earlier "there", then?
@@pot_kivach160 he didnt say he was on the receiving end of the old guy trap
@@pot_kivach160?
It felt like AA or kk here, but I was hoping for the best for the hero. I seen a really bizarre hand 2 weeks ago playing 2-5, 2 guys were 1200 effective. UTG has jj and opens to 55. Utg+1 smooth calls with kk. Then +2 calls with only about 250 in her stack. Dry flop..utg bets about 75..+1 and +2 calls. Ten on the turn...utg bets 200. Then +1 jams. +2 folds..then utg tank calls. We were so shocked to see their hands.
The preflop caller in between should influence the slow play but it doesn’t as much when the opponent is not much of a thinking player. I would put more weight on AA than we bart did
8:28 calling flop x/r is driving a car too fast into a fog knowing rock bluffs and cliffs are around! Pull over, dammit!
12:52 sure, you got your rockbluff!!
Oop deep stacked multi-way and flats AA pre. Nice trap, I guess. V has 0 4bets? This hand is 100% player dependent.
An “older live reg” doesn’t overplay much in general. Nor do they put in big bets without the goods. They leak by over/under calling/folding. Don’t let him disguise with being splashy pre.
I’d target him pre in position knowing I’m never getting 4b. Take it to the deep waters and see if he can swim.
i kind of expected KK that wanted to see an aceless flop in order
to continue aggressive. there really ARE live players like this.
Yup. I never cold call/slow play KK in this spot though because he either has aces or Imma make him/her draw for one. Aces is a safer hand to flat with as you don't have any over cards to deal with, and against aggressive players (if he perceived OP to be one) he could have set the trap like he did.
The only people that do crap like that are OMC’s
This hand actually did not surprise me all that much... after putting everything together from the Preflop action... to the x/r on the flop... and adding in that it is an older guy as well... I am calling the flop bet for sure to see what he does on turn.
Once he over pot jams turn I immediately pegged him on literally exactly AA and that's pretty much what he has here. It is what it is, maybe in some whacky world he has like A2 of hearts and does this... but other than that I've seen people play AA in this "trappy" manner looking for favorable flops to start springing their trap.
There are a lot of times when I am playing shorter and I have QQ or JJ here and I will end up paying it off (cause that is really what you are supposed to do).
But in this spot with the overbet and how trappy he played he basically has JUST overpair in his range here!!!! It is up to us to figure out which ones...
Like Bart said 10s thru JJ probably aren't represented here much for this size. If it was for a much smaller amount I could get on board. I just knew villain had AA ALMOST exclusively! I would have found the fold button here for sure at that size.
imho, knowing his hand, this looks like he had a pretty good read on what our hero had and what this might look like. He could get called by all over pairs, flush and straight draws, plus he could still hit an Ace. Maybe our hero here is giving away info or underestimating villain???? or maybe he is just scared, never folding AA and just wanted a fold.....but hero is only beating a bluff here and is he really getting the "price" for this spot? I fold every time with this action, but I am an old man playing $2/$5 and $1/$3.
In my opinion, the Villan has KK or a lower pocket pair. Or Two Napkins.
Hmm- I’m thinking flop checkraises here should be things like very big draws (53s), 44, and suited sixes (if he has 53s he will have plenty of Suited Sixes), and slow-played AA or KK. You have to know your player type- there are some very aggressive players that will check raise their TT in this spot, and those players have to just be called to the end. People who are not like that, I will call the checkraise, and fold later in the hand if they continue.
Turn jam: Old guy w money-slowplayed AA uggh. Fold.
Knew it🤣
This smelled so bad of AA despite the preflop action. What is an OMC check raising with on 664r and then jamming turn? He might not even do this with KK…
OMC preflop logic “I wanted to get another caller in there to build the pot.”
I’d tend to assume the opposite from OMC logic. “I don’t want my aces getting sucked out on again!” Followed by a huge 4-bet.
OK GTO question here. These guys are really sure that AA and KK need to 4-bet pre multiway. I'm guessing this is because they want to play heads up, not three-way. Is that really such a big effect here? I understand you should avoid a situation where you potentially go 4+ handed, but is it bad for AA or KK to allow things to go 3-handed by flatting? Yes, there's more chance you're outflopped but there's also more chance someone makes a hand that can call you down.
Or is it not about protection and is the imperative to 4-bet pre all about getting value early?
Had same hand VS AA put we jammed pre-flop 😢lost my stack was $200
Was the villain Skalansky ????
Here we go Brownies! Here we go!!
Bart utilizes the optimal strategy to get the like button clicked he doesn’t pester you up front about it like most other channels there’s just a subtle reminder a few minutes in that always gets me to click it and deservedly so Bart is the man for sharing his infinite wisdom
1-5 game with a $10 straddle hero limps UTG it limps around including villain who is an older seasoned player on the button he should never have AA here......
The worst part of these hands is having to look at villian's self satisfied smile after the hand as he thinks he outplayed you
well to be fair he did outplay the hero, even though it was a weird line to take
@@ijustwannaleaveacommentony6511 but he’d have still won a big pot if he’d just 4-bet the aces pre.I mean I asssume you’re not folding QQ to a 4-bet in position? So hero would still get stacked.
i fold QQ and KK pre easy. but i still take your point about the smug look on his face after he scoops@@JohnSmith-nx7zj
I guess hero didn’t get bailed out on the river
I was thinking the same thing. No river shown. Hand was not over but Bart seemed to think so.
it's a no brainer. Otherwise, there would not had been the call.
.
Beside: What matters here is wrong decision made on both Flop and Turn. The rest is history...irrelevant for the subject at hand.
Why can’t Villain show up with A-A here? If I’m balanced, I am not always 4-betting aces either; I need to protect my 4-betting range by sometimes calling as well.
I would also discount MP player being able to even call the 3-bet anyway, being stuck between two players. So it isn’t likely that a 4-bet is even necessary to fold out MP. It’s a “gamble” that pays off by stacking the hero.
@@JohnJakeMegahanvillain would have still stacked the hero on this runout if he’d 4-bet.
As for protecting for your 4-betting range…I think you mean protecting your 3-bet calling range. You’re weakening your 4-betting range by 4-betting AA at a reduced frequency.
@@JohnSmith-nx7zj You very well could be right but a 4-bet would have allowed Hero to make a tough lay down on the river, in my humble opinion
@@JohnSmith-nx7zj correction: yes you’re right; I meant 3-bet calling range. Thank you
@@JohnSmith-nx7zj Good point, but I do have to call 3-bets with kings and aces sometimes
Balance doesn't really matter here but if you are folding QQ you are folding 100% of your range (except for 1 combo of AA and some KK although I don't think it's that different to QQ) because I doubt you have any 6x or 4x here in reality. It's not that juicy of a spot to trap for villain unless MP is some turbofish and I think JJ and TT could definitely be in there, even if he has almost no bluffs. I think the call is the right play unless he really is very very nitty, then you can very exploitatively fold your entire range I guess lol
So instead of 4 betting,call,then check raise the flop.I like it.
AA everytime. Ive seen it so often lot of older players just flat call because they got aces cracked in 2004. They will call even multiway and then bet big every street no matter what. .
Damn
I would've folded to the jam on the turn 😢
Hero had 13ish% equity to win/chop... I was really rooting for the suck out 😂
My guess is 72 of hearts and your opponent follows Greg Goes All-In, lemme check if I'm right
13:00 offer him a shoulder for crying!
Queen on the river
What was the river?
dry, no water, only few whirlpools with ONE big Fish gasping for the air!!
This is one of those spots where you need to ask what your hand looks like to your opponent.
A Yeti Bart?!?!? Soooooo last year, you need to update to today's thermos that is exactly the same with a different brand name on it
What was the river??
A Queen
How did Michael G say it’s the same thing lol. If there’s dead money your always incentivized to squeeze
Not past the flop yet, but this screams "guy who stupidly put you on exactly AK because live players do that constantly".
Now that I'm done, it's wild how many calls recently have been villains playing their hand in basically the worst possible way and getting insanely lucky that the hero is near the top of their range to call, but just barely beat.
Way more likely to be AA than KK.
funny i would have snap folded lol snap call?
It’s not bizarre. I’ve seen that stupid play so many times with aces. I knew it was aces on the turn 100%. Was fairly certain on the flop
Or AKhh, AQhh, A5hh?
I think villain played this well although it was fortunate that M p folded
Moistcritical is a regular on CLP
AA’s!!! From a player who doesn’t know how to play! Fold!!!
The guy probably runs HORRIBLY with AA....I lose 90% of my hands with AA no matter how i play them, fast,slow,inbetween. He used my new method...just keep hammering the pot til villain folds. By that i mean im betting $50 $60 pre in a 1/2. F THESE FOOLS. and believe it or not.....i get a call or 2, nuts.
Snap fold. No way villiak does this with 10 10 or jj.
He had min kk
Maybe if villian is a young asain dude playing like a gangster or a rolling drunk id consider it but v an old man instant fold
"young asian wearing sun glasses"
Is Bart OK? His voice isn't as good as it used to be
I consider myself a beginner recreational player that wants to advance my skills. I am 60 years old and truly feel I am an old dog that can be taught new tricks. It appears you have a stereotyped opinion on “older” players, which is quite deterring. Why don’t you provide a tutorial for older players to not act old.
Just like us young guys you have an image that you can use to your advantage. Your bluffs are more credible and people will in general think you’re telling the truth with your bet sizes. Consider that as part of your strategy and good luck 🙏🏻
And on the other side of that coin young guys can over bet for value more often because people tend to think we’re full of sht 😂
No need to be deterred, my friend! I think Bart uses stereotypes of certain player types to help us understand how to categorize those players (moreso based on what we see of their play than their appearance if possible) at the table and adjust accordingly, but if you’re in the know and follow CLP content, then you’re already way ahead of the type of player that Bart is talking about.
There’s nothing you can do to prevent players from making assumptions about you based on your appearance; however, this can be a good thing if we get a solid read on what the opponent thinks you’re going to do because of this.
Maybe you get the idea that the opponent thinks you’re a nit and will try to bluff you off your marginal holding. Mix in some lighter/hero calls and make him look silly!
You could also capitalize on the idea people have that older guys only bet when they have it and get some bluffs through!
If you continue to study and improve your game, it won’t be long until you’ll be handing out a harsh lesson to anybody who thinks they have an edge on you because you’re an older guy (take with a grain of salt if you like bc im a younger guy).
I think if simple stuff like stereotypes bother you you're doomed to fail. Emotion has little place in poker.
@@Mattjdiener I actually see that at the tables and take advantage when possible. I recall after draining an individual’s chips, he remarked that I don’t play like an old guy.
F*kin clicking buttons... Risking going 3way to a flop with AA is just insane.