Commodore 64 NTSC to PAL Conversion | see description for new switch!
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 3 ก.ค. 2024
- 🙏 MY PATREON: / perifractic
Update: The VIC-II² PAL/NTSC switcher board is now available! See • Finally a PAL/NTSC Swi...
ℹ️ In this episode I go Commando & convert a Commodore 64 from NTSC to PAL to maximize compatibility with UK & other European games & demos! Using a game on the wrong system can lead to the SID chip music and sound playing back too fast and other glitches. Here I show you how to fix it in 3 steps.
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THE COOKING MUSIC
📱 RINGTONE: apple.co/2xkRG7T | bit.ly/2IXHEuV
💿 THEME TUNE: bit.ly/2HT8eVn
💿 INCIDENTAL MUSIC: bit.ly/80s10s
SHOPPING LIST*
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🕹 PAL Video Chip: rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-53... | www.retroleum.co.uk
🕹 Heat Sinks: www.retroleum.co.uk/c64-repai...
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🕹️ Recommended desoldering gun: 🇺🇸amzn.to/2HV2uug | 🇬🇧amzn.to/2GSd2cp
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THE COOKWEAR (T-SHIRTS)
👕 Commodore: ebay.to/2srWvHG
👕 Atari: ebay.to/2JgHzlW
👕 Apple: ebay.to/2sziOvl
🐤 FOLLOW ME: / chrisimpsonline
NOTES
🕹 Keep in mind this video is specific to the 250407 Rev B motherboard, but other motherboards have a very similar process & AFAIK the same chip, crystal & jumper; just in different locations on the PCB.
🕹️ As I say in the video, only use the same series VIC-II chip.
🕹 Remember you'll need a PAL compatible display like the Commodore 1084S. The XRGB Mini correctly detected the display as "PAL". My Samsung TV is also multi region as are many modern ones.
🕹️ Don't try this at home. Try it at your friend's. I am not an expert. Your results may vary.
🕹 Don't hesitate to comment with any suggestions, questions, or sugquestions!
🕹 I DO REPAIRS & MODS: Contact me at the-simpson.tv/contact.htm
WITH THANKS
🕹 Sam's Journey: www.knightsofbytes.games/sams...
🕹️ Jan Beta important info on VIC-II differences: • C64 VIC-II Generation ...
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Update: The VIC-II² PAL/NTSC switcher board is now available! See th-cam.com/video/XONgqVT8pd0/w-d-xo.html
That was my first thought: Wouldn't it be nicer to have a PAL/NTSC switcher instead?
I searched on Google for 'c64 pal ntsc switcher' and the first hit is "Perifractic's VIC-II² - C64 PAL/NTSC Switch". I am not surprised you build that kit :)
A video like this was much needed. There were articles and tutorials but to have this on video I think is really useful.
Always forgot to thank you for this video. Worked like a charm with the crystal thanks!
Glad it helped!
Hi! Just found your channel and subscribed! I am planning on doing this. Thanks for making this video.
Thanks, that means a lot!
I've just come across your channel! 😱 it's very informative and very well presented. The fact you are very handsome 😝 and comical makes your videos incredibly enjoyable to watch. Charles UK
Thank you so much! That means a lot to me. 👍🕹️
Sweet! I was just looking into converting a board i saved into a PAL, and somehow missed your video of it
Conrad Vogel Awesomeness!
just shared your video on the Commodore 64/128 FB group.
Update: I'm co-developing a switch board that will allow you to switch between PAL/NTSC. See here for more info!: bit.ly/vicii2
Interesting how much better the machine *looked* once you'd converted it to PAL! :) Just kidding, I saw your other videos. It just caught my eye that the case had been swapped between the before and after demos. Thanks for the video series!
Nicely done!
I remember playing commando on c64 and being frustrated that it was too hard. Now I know why. It was at pal speed.
I've been playing around with an NTSC C64 and I'm surprised how many software 1541 fast-loaders don't work. I looked it up and apparently a lot of them rely on VICII timing.
Nice, if you have a motherboard with an 8701 you can just swap it for a TOLB (PAL version) and swap the VIC-II chip, very handy.
This is a very good video. The scotch tape part made me cringe. I think kapton tape is the right move no matter what the situation, but especially this one.
As far as I know there are way more games on the C64 PAL list than on the NTSC list so having a PAL machine is always a good idea.
I am also a Brit living in the good old US of A and have a few Commodore C64s. I want to try and do this mod but it will be a challenge. Firstly I don't have all of the tools yet and secondly I probably don't have the skillz. I would willingly pay you to do this for me, if that is something you can do! Otherwise, I suppose I will have to try and it some time on one of the spare motherboards I have lying around and just pray that the nerd gods are with me.
Great channel by the way. I am so jealous of all the gear you have.
Thank you for your kind words! Means a lot 👍🕹️ Drop me an email via perifractic.com
Hi Perifractic thanks for another great video I'm curious is this the same procedure for the C128 NTSC to PAL
fun fact: both Argentina and Brazil used and somehow use PAL. great video. there is a mode to switch between pal and ntsc? that would be interesting.
I'm working on a switch actually. See bit.ly/vicii2
Update: The VIC-II² PAL/NTSC switcher board is now available! See th-cam.com/video/XONgqVT8pd0/w-d-xo.html
Great Video... I've got an NTSC C128 which I want to change to PAL. I expect it to be a similar process. But I can't seem to find any clear information on precisely what to get and do. Do you by any chance know about that too?
Carsten Lervad (aka Zhixalom) Good question. I've never tried that. The video from the 128 is essentially two separate computers in a way. For the 40 columns you should find exactly what's in my video on your main board. Take a good look. I don't think the 80 columns would need converting... 🤔
I don’t think it’s too fast, it was perfect :)
Any list anywhere of PAL originally games and NTSC originally games..?
From a certain point of view...
As for the list, this thread might be of use: goo.gl/1a77ZY
I have a similar solder sucker, but my thumb won't reach up to the button at the top of the plunger that primes it, and i don't have quite enough strength in my thumb anyway. I have had it for a long while, and the plastic went brittle, and when i dropped it, much of the sheath around the top broke off. I took the opportunity to cut off the rest, and then 3D printed myself a new button, a simple rounded flat one. This way i can just whack it on my butt to prime it! Wish there was a safe way to that to ZD-211 too, but maybe i'll figure out one someday.
Now that's dedication!
Why? It's good to print something regularly or you tend to forget how to do it right and you can figure out various improvements you could to to the printer along the way - it's a sub $150 kit, it really isn't the kind of thing you wouldn't like to mess with, it's just a sloppily thrown together collection of cheapest hardware in Shenzhen and improvements are usually quite easy. Designing a cylinder with a pocket in it and bevelling the top round, then putting some circle ridges on top only takes like a minute in FreeCAD or Fusion360, and it's only a few cents worth of material.
i like the faster music on commando
I just watched a video from another retro tuber who did only the jumper change but he was using a C64C...do you happen to know if the C64C only requires a jumper change to run in PAL? I had assumed the same 3 steps were required that you did in this video.
Hmm that doesn't sound quite right but I don't know for sure.
Hi: I've got some changes on screen when running the C64; The image sometimes gets clearer (not for better). I think that that's the crystal or maybe the VIC getting too hot (I'll put a fan too). I've got a PAL C64 and I was thinking in changing the old crystal. I'll use a 17,73447 MHz one, the style of the new one you've soldered in. My question is: Why did they use that pin on the right of the original crystal?. I say the first thing you desolder in this video, marked as "This wire". I mean, are you sure that it isn't necessary at all?. Why? Were they polarized and now they aren't?
Fernando Martín It's just a ground. No harm connecting it but the smaller ones don't really need it, at least that's what I've learned. As for the changes on screen you can look into Lumafix or LumaTOLB on amibay, or try a different VIC. I don't expect crystal to help, nice though she is.
Thanks. I'm already using a Lumafix and this VIC is the best one of the ones I've tried. ... I'll try changing the crystal and putting a fan over the SIDS that will also cool a bit more the VIC.
BTW I've finally installed tonight the Bwack's kernal switcher and it is ... Great: eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=89997&page=2 . I'll make a new video when I change some more things ;)
Just thinking now... I had some issues before with the VIC and that's why I changed to use a later revision one. Maybe the culprit was just the crystal after all.
It's crystal shielding, which seems a bit excessive, given how the crystal basically sits on a nice ground pad. Also they are not all equally susceptible to interference, i don't think you're likely to have an issue.
You can always check whether it's the heat with some cooling spray. Mild contact cleaner or air duster can work as such. Sure not simply a leaky capacitor? Their properties change for a few minutes after they're powered.
Nice work dude. Do US made games tend to work on PAL systems or is it the same problem?
Thanks! Actually there were very few NTSC only games. But my understanding is there can be similar issues, particularly with the display. It would be interesting to test.
Perifractic's Retro Recipes I was wondering if folks in 60hz regions would make their games compatible with 50hz regions because of the popularity of the computer in Europe. Figured that was a large market sector. Then again, perhaps that's why there were often two quite different versions of games for each market? Afterburner is the first one that springs to mind.
Phil Underhill Indeed! And of course cartridges were more prevalent for NTSC, though the cheaper tapes were more widely used in PAL markets.
(BTW thanks for pointing out the issue with the last video! 🤦♂️)
Nice vid. Commando sure enough sounds wrong, however, there are others that sound very wrong and too slow in PAL (i.e. Maniac Mansion, Zak McKracken, etc. ).
walterg74 Thank you! I take it you are used to their NTSC versions 😉
Really cool mod, I would like to try it on my NTSC machine.
I have read somewhere that this mod is only valid on the short boards, is that true or can it be performed successfully on any bread-bin board?
Benny Abramovici Thanks! The board in the video is a long board 😊
I'm about to update from NTSC to PAL N with 6572, I saw xtal frequency is 17.34475 instead of 14.328. Is it fair to assume that for PAL N that other one is ok?
Have you encountered any games that use the TOD clock and if so, is there a problem since you are still using a 60Hz power source?
Good question. I haven't run into that problem. GeOS uses the clock I believe, but seems to work as before.
You could consider to install a modified KERNAL, that sets the CIA to 60Hz despite being PAL. Commodore did did themselves in certain markets.
I liked this video a lot but finding PAL Vic-II Chips is insanely difficult -Mark.
Deborah Beri Email retroleum. If they're not on his website he usually has some. Cheap too.
Well, thanks to your well documented links I've ordered (and already received!) Heatsinks sets, the 'Refurb' sets for 250407 BandC, etc. Very professional operation in Retroleum! And Shipping was affordable! I will order again just due to that alone. -Mark.
@@deborahberi3249 I know it's 8 months later, but Ebay UK can be a place to look for PAL hardware.
Looking into it...thanks!
PAL rules!
One detailed missed: I think the VIC II is available in 5V and 12V variants depending on which board you have.
Hmm do you have a source for this?
At 3:35 th-cam.com/video/H3AYW7LUzgE/w-d-xo.html
BTW, I'm a recent subscriber, love your content, as a fellow Commodore fan I find your videos inspiring me. I should dig all my old hardware from the 80's out of storage. :-)
That means a lot to me, thank you! 👍🕹️
Ok, but what is with RF output? It's NTSC signal? Or PAL? I mean, if i hava a old PAL TV that can't run on NTSC signal and if i connect that C64 to this TV via RF signal, i get colors and properly image?
I don’t think that will work very well no. It’s the same as broadcast TV over RF. USA and other countries had differing systems. Same with the C64. The difference starts at the VIC-II graphics chip, so affects all outputs.
Hello, can you elaborate on exactly how your C64 is connected to the XRGB-mini here, and the settings on the XRGB-mini? I performed this conversion and am using an S-video cable from the C64 to the XRGB-mini. The image is in black and white. The exact same setup using an NTSC C64 results in a color image.
Update: this was resolved by adjusting the R27 pot next to the VIC chip.
I have the same setup. I haven't seen that issue with the XRGB. The troubleshooting at the end of the manual for my switcher might help: docs.google.com/document/d/1kmEpEqAXiAqL4K_vFQSTYxYZdxyA3ZmUkNNI0kuMmtI/edit?usp=drivesdk
Is there a way to fix that color banding on text it looks pretty terrible?
There is a product called Lumafix designed for that. Check it out!
The vic2 pal chip Ebay link sends you to a 6567?
Fixed, thanks! rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-53200-19255-0/1?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fsch%2Fi.html%3F_from%3DR40%26_trksid%3Dm570.l1313%26_nkw%3Dcommodore%2B64%2Bpal%2Bvic%2B6569%2Bchip%26_sacat%3D0%26LH_TitleDesc%3D0%26LH_PrefLoc%3D2%26_osacat%3D0%26_odkw%3Dcommodore%2B64%2Bpal%2Bvic%2B6560%2Bchip&campid=5338319429&toolid=20008
@@RetroRecipes no problem! I had just ordered your vicII 2 and a 6569 then saw in this description the 6567 and thought I had gotten them confused!
Hi!! if i buy a Commodore 64c PAL (Europe ) and i connect it in my country that use NTSC (considering the correct power supply) using a modern TV. Does it will works?
It will only work if your USA TV supports PAL or if you use an upscaler to change the output to HDMI. I have one recommended at my "Get the tools I use" page perifractic.com/tools
Can you reverse this process to make a pal machine to ntsc
Indeed! Just play the video backwards 😁🕹️
i did this, but my Dell monitor is only showing greyscale from this machine. can it not handle a PAL video signal via its s-video input? also having an issue with my pi1541 with this machine.
If you see a black and white image yes this usually means the monitor does not support the other mode. You should be able to check the specs by Googling it on Yahoo!
@@RetroRecipes i think it's something else, possibly even the crystal not being exactly right (it's marked 17.734475) because i've tried the machine on PAL compatible displays and it's still grayscale.
@@mindluge There is a 7 pF capacitor fix you can try which I detail at the end of bit.ly/vicii2guide 🤞
@@RetroRecipes aha. i wonder if this is why my pi1541 is failing on this machine also? do you by any chance have a Mouser or Digikey part number for this 7 pF cap?
@@mindluge Sure: www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/TDK/FG28C0G1H070DNT06?qs=icAhCOE9Tbho1OcQfWPqjQ%3D%3D
Will it work properly on NTSC displays?
Fawful Rox It should on modern ones, that's what I have. Older ones, possibly not.
No, I have a PAL 64G that I imported and it doesn't show color on any of my old C= monitors, but does work fine in color on S-Video on my Plasma TV so that might be an option.
Are c64 games 60hz in ntsc regions and slower in pal regions ?
I ask because all consoles are like this,or is getting a pal c64 as good as its going to get
Cant fimd an answer to this anywhere
Technically yes. Check out my VIC-II² for a deeper explanation.
Why not a kit to flip back and forth?
There's a product called LumiTOLB that comes close. The problem is height restriction above the VIC to allow 2 VICs and a heat sink in the C64C case, but I've definitely thought about it! Glad you liked the video.
Okay info noted I have C128 PAL and several NTSC so no worries I hope!
I think it needs a board that places them either side of the socket, not stacking them atop each other, or the bottom one would have a rough life. Plus some switching logic.
Siana Gearz maybe you can whip something up
I don't have a second VIC-II, so i wouldn't be able to test it; and i would need two different VIC-II, or i wouldn't know if there's actually bus interference. Besides, i have no need for it myself, since i'm in EU and my C64 is one of those German ones, and US-only software carries no relevance to me.
Has anyone else tried the CSG8701 from icomp.de, which turns this conversion into an easily reversible, solder less job?
I ordered a chip remover from Wish.com and they sent me a seagull.
BUT, what if you wanted to switch back to NTSC for whatever reason (incompatible software, etc).
this should be adaptable to a C64, as well. www.fascinationsoftware.com/FS/html/Plus4-videoswitch.html
though I'd make a custom PCB, rather than piggybacking the VICs.
It's a common request. Luckily pal is the dominant format and I'm not aware of anything NTSC that doesn't have a pal version you can download.
I just submitted contribution of spanish subtitles and translations for title and description, please check. I think this video would be useful for spanish speakers
uctumi Muchas gracias!
no problem! I think you should approve it for it to appear
uctumi TH-cam say we have to wait for the community to approve it, so please share! Thanks again!
the problem is I wanted to share it with spanish speaking people who won't be able to understand what you say, that's why I made the subtitles
uctumi Apparently if they try to turn on Spanish it will ask them to review it. Or maybe it's only certain community members. Sorry, I'm new to how subtitles work but let's give it a little time and see if it gets approved.
Nobody noticed different case for the PAL machine?
I read somewhere that the PSU AC frequency is used as a reference for something, I wonder if that causes any problems?
Anyone doing this should watch this video from Jan Beta (th-cam.com/video/YW8je-W5_D4/w-d-xo.html) -- Voltage differences in VIC chips can cause you to have a very bad day. Always use a VIC-II chip of the same series.
Jeff Ledger Agreed! As I say at the start of the process, use the same series!