Just want to say this type of content is my favorite of yours. Providing history and context for specific gameplay mechanics is super interesting for me as a player that started with SFV and doesn't have a very large worldview in terms of other fighting games.
Third Strike actually has very few meterless reversals (only ken and akuma Fierce DP). The rest required EX or super meter. I believe Daigo said that Third Strike was basically not a street fighter game for this reason.
Pretty sure neither Ken nor Akuma's fierce DPs are invulnerable, but they are some of the highest priority moves in the game. Akuma's teleport however is invincible.
just Ken's Fierce DP is invincible, the funny thing with Akuma is all of his DPs have invincibility. I also checked Dudley and Yun just to see what non-shotos have and they don't get any meterless invincible DPs either.
tbh i do not miss proximity normals, it feels really shitty when you are expecting a prox normal and you were just a smidge out of range, i definitely prefer having lots of command normals over any proximity but thats just me
I play Ken (in smash lol) but prox stuff not working is insanely annoying, I come from an entirely different series and still feel that street fighter pain.
Proximity normals can add a lot of utility and versatility to a character. Adding on to Brian's video on emergent design, proximity normals can lead to that. You can get a lot of cool situational applications from proximity normals. Additionally, they help further differentiate characters from each other. I get that some people don't like that proximity normals are spacing decendent, but getting the spacing down is a skill. You can be consistent with it.
None of these special properties are actually exposed in the game itself anywhere, are they? I tried playing Guile for a time, and I remember I had to find some weird other web site that tracked hitboxes and invincibility frames rather than that stuff just being visible in training mode.
Nope. Can't find it ingame. Capcom does provide this info on CFN though. They're either lazy or the management doesn't let them work on 'unnecessary' things. BTW the frame advantage you see in training mode wasn't even there since the beginning. It's like a season 4 addition. Really sad.
This is one of the biggest mistake capcom did. If they don’t give full invulnerability for the next title capcom needs to provide in depth explanations of moves and their purpose similar to what GGST did really well IMO.
Yes, as Kevin said, this information was always available in game, I remember learning Ryu back in 2018 and memorizing that medium DP was/is the best anti air option
Do a DP tier list, but account for things like range, active frames and startup. It would be interesting to see if it stays the same of not. Great video.
I think it's also worth mentioning that safejump setups aren't very common in SFV which is something that makes DPs a lot easier to deal with in other games.
I knew the dp's were designed to be used in specific situations but i didnt realize they had THIS many uses individually. Just when I think I knew everything there is to know about sfv my mind gets blown by content like this. Nice vid brian.
I haven't watched the video, but the most controversial thing about SFV is that they did not add my boy Abel. I will never let this rest. But I do like the change, even if I joined in late in SFV. Invincible wakeup DPs are just not fun to deal with. I've faced enough flowchart Ken in SF4 to last me a lifetime of seeing invincible wakeup DPs.
Brian ok listen. You're the best SFV content creator at this point. The videos are amazing, well articulated, clever. Keep pushing bro, love from France. Sorry for the low tier English, I'm better in baguette.
I think generally it's a good option to consider when balancing reversal options. If someone has a really good reversal that leads to some form of pressure/Oki it can be harder to land. If landing it sets you back to a neutral position in most cases, then maybe let it cover more more options on defense with just one button strength. The decision to implement should be weighed with risk reward and character strengths in mind
the interesting thing is with SF3, even though there a lot of DPs, invincibility is not ubiquitous, in fact it's a bit on the rarer side, they key thing is that because most DPs had very high priority and were very fast, so they beat out a lot of attacks anyway, but they would still trade in some situations
it's also interesting to see how SF3 Akuma has a similar design philosophy for his DPs to SF5; Light is strike invuln, Medium is throw invuln, and Heavy is the strongest and hardest to parry
Ironically, that gif of Ken's SRK is from third strike and is not invincible. The move has partial invincibility but in general loses clean to meaties, like all other DPs in 3s.
Reminding me about Ryu's cheap DP > Super gimmick makes me realize in retrospect why they didn't give Ryu an invincible DP in 3S outside of EX. It's because he'd be able to do the exact same thing but arguably worse with 3S Denjin Hadoken super
Yeah except you could have counterplay by low parrying into throw on wakeup in 3s which could bait the dp and throw the denjin since denjin isn't throw invuln; additionally even in the situation where you do dp into denjinn in alot of the time if you don't stun your enemy from the denjin you will be punishable on hit. Though you do have a point if the dp lands in that you take the hit from a heavy dp and then get a free denjinn setup, but just saying there is more nuance to the situation then you may initially think
@@gxgycf8348 fair point. I didn't even think about throwing the denjin after the parry or the punishable on hit scenario. Thank you for the knowledge check.
many DPs in 3S aren't even invulnerable without EX (honestly having them is redundant with universal parries being an anti-meaty option) as well DP into Denjin was just for setup and while difficult was still parriable, punishable up close (ex, Ryu does this while you're cornered). Its far from toxic honestly, beats the shit out of most actual unblockable setups in 3S
@@happycamperds9917 iirc the order is different with some characters so that might be why. Or maybe m dp or h dp of their character travels too far to anti air someone right above your head properly. If you’re talking about Akuma, Ryu, or Ken, they shouldn’t be using L DP tho.
I was in the FGC awhile back, but I just don't have to time to enjoy FGs anymore (although I did buy MB:TL and had a lot of fun!). Still, I love to listen to a truly experienced player speak; I subscribed off this vid.
Said this before, but the sf3 series also had parries. A meterless, universal defensive mechanic. So not having frame 1 invul dps was justified in that game.
@@EonTheAien The difference is that there exist meterless reversals and parries dont account for grabs. Characters without meterless reversals or without reversals (like Twelve) struggle so much more than those with them as you can perform Oki with very little risk just by switching up timings. Parries aren't active forever.
Great Topic Brian_F. To add more for this discussion, SOME DP attacks were TERRIBLE ANTI-AIRS at the start of Season 2 of SFV. And this is where I myself, or some players became extremley pissed off at Street Fighter V Due to those Reversal DP Changes. DP attacks "WERE NOT" invincible to Air-Attacks; so DP attacks traded...a lot. No matter how good players anticipated the opponet's jump-in attacks, the DP would still likely be traded, so, players were being punish for being correct. Furthermore, if you wanted to avoid DP trades, you had to spend Meter, or perform air-to-air anti airs, or better yet, just pick Akuma (Shoto) because he didn't have those issues. Those Anti-air traded DP issues absoultely killed the Poster Boy Shotos; Ryu & Ken. And it took CAPCOM about 4 months, at the end Aprill 2017, to address those issue, and how they resolved it was by then adding, "invincibility for airborne attacks for frames 1 to 6F for the Medium Version of Shoryuken and etc." For those curious: Links to the Patch notes back in Season 2 of SFV and there were two Patch notes SFV Season 2 Beginning Patch Notes, December 2016 ►►► www.eventhubs.com/news/2016/dec/19/character-balance-changes-season-2-street-fighter-5/ SFV Season 2.5 Patch Notes( Fixed the DP issues), Aprill 2017 ►►► www.eventhubs.com/news/2017/mar/15/street-fighter-5s-latest-balance-changes-revealed-available-end-april/
Thank you. Smug ass top level players sometimes. Although brian probably didnt mean to purposefully look over it. But this was important. Those "were never lost invincibility" examples are great but fail to acknowledge they actually were not and did suck balls for few months directly after the initial nerf.
I've seen a couple of channels discussing this topic, though you offered more context by showing how each DP can have its own use. The way I had thought of it was that having easy access to an invincible move made the other universal defensive options in the game less important. Even though V-Shift didn't exist at the time this change happened, a successful V-Reversal usually wouldn't give you as much advantage as a successful reversal DP would, so the risk-reward was unbalanced between those two options for the characters who had it.
I know about this change to invincibility types, but in practice I never see anyone actually light DP out of throws. The risk/reward is simply too skewed in the attacker's favor, since they also have the option to block in addition to meaty, which also beats heavy DP since those aren't frame 1 invincible. The rock-paper-scissors aspect works in tick throw/frame trap scenarios but that is in itself still mixup on top of throw/meaty. I could try and be psychic and get 100+ damage for guessing right on a multilayered mixup, or if I guess wrong I'm eating a 300 damage crush counter punish. Alternatively, I could just wait and take the 150 damage throw or just block until they no longer have advantage. Or I could just jump out and corner swap, eating 60 damage from meaty if I guess wrong. If I know the opponent wants to pressure, it's better to just spend the bar because then I don't have to guess from throw/tick throw/meaty and gamble my chances of success on an already risky move.
It does but it also changes the game in a very big way. You REALLY don't want to get knocked down. This also indirectly makes jumps and dashes so much riskier which in turn makes the game very very slow. IMHO this is a good thing. It makes the game stand out on the current market where you can block in air, air dash, run, double jump and so on. Personally I like it since I was, so to speak, raised on SFV but I can see how some people hate this change.
@@dirkdiggler9505 It was honestly a good change and people definitely overlook the fact that L dp and H dps still have aome invincibility with M still being the full air invincibility as that was original intead as the anti air dp. I think the hate comes from people not undersganding the change and adjusting to it when they play
@@exiaR2x78 I fully understand the properties of the DPs in SFV and it is a shit change that encourages brainless offense, not thoughtful defense. The risk/reward is so skewed on SFV DPs that it's considered a stupid decision to ever use them in the first place.
@@Cybrisk Ya know theres this mechanic thats been in SFV since launch called V-Reversal? Most characters pressure buttons being mediums can be blown up by this.
@@exiaR2x78 It loses to throws. I want my mechanic that blows up people autopiloting strike/throw, no compromises. I don't care about tertiary mechanics.
As a more casual player I do hate how this isnt conveyed well enough for everyone to know it. I have minor gripes with the system otherwise but thats the biggest one that I think people can agree on.
I recently started playing Sakura and I lost count of the amount of times my dps traded in the air. I enjoy this change and I am really excited to see how SF6 will play
Sakura specifically doesn’t have a real dp so even after the season 2 changes none of that applied to sakura being added in season 3. Her only real reversal costs meter. More than likely your dp in any game as Sakura is not a reliable anti air option. Slow, weird arch/travel, and has no invulnerability at all unless you use meter. cr.HP is your go to aa, it’s as good as Poison’s cr.MP. In exchange, none of sakura’s dp (besides EX) are counter hit state so she avoids any crush counters. EDIT: In sfv your only real reliable time to use sakura’s dp as an anti air is after a fully charged fireball on someone’s knockdown and also if G is leveled up and you need to take out a level.
@@exiaR2x78 In alpha iirc she has a little dash before she even goes for the dp so with that start up I would assume it has no invul properties. Also considering what sakura’s based on she’s imitating a shoto while all her shoto tools are bad (in a design sense), weak fireball, irregular dp, and tatsu that are short or travels in a arch form.
@@null-wq5cp Came here to say this. Always felt weird to have her DP game nerfed for lore reasons. I think it's part of her design as a character who plays good footsies because of her walkspeed with only 1 dedicated anti air to balance that. But also how much stronger would she be with the same tools as other characters in the game like Cammy who is just as fast
I partialy agree with the new change, exept for heavy DP not being invincible on frame one, not only you have to guess if on the frametrap it's a throw or a strike, but if you think it's a strike you also have to guess if it's a 3 frame gap or less, and knowing evey single frametrap gap is mostly unrealistic, (altough for some giga brain players it's possible) but even if you know all of then, accessing this info midmatch on a matchup you don't see often is very unlikely, you'll be focused on ghessing the throw and never feel confident to throw a dp like... ever, i can only speak from personal experience, but i've litteraly never seen anyone do a heavy dp out of blockstrings, but i've seen light dps when they read my SPD, i may have quited sf 5 at this point (for a totally unrelated reason to this dp controversy, i just suffered too much lag), so i can't say it would still be the case right now, but that was my experience playing the game, and i started on the end of season 2 and played all the way untill oro and akira's release.
As an addendum, Lucia's light DP has projectile and throw invul. I'm not sure if her heavy DP starts up fast enough to beat strikes. Medium isn't reliable as an anti-air due to the spacing needed to land it being at odds with when someone would jump in.
street fighter 3 actually only has 2 characters (ken & akuma) with non-EX full invincible DPs, everyone else was either no non-super reversals or needed EX. closer to launch SF5 in a way.
I actually like Crush counters, nerf to full invincible Dp hurt most but It help give SF5 a different identity. Didnt mind it in the end but it just adds more complexity
As controversial as the no inv dp is, I’d say that how sfv’s frame data, stubby normals/no proximity normals and how damn near everyone has a way to get around projectiles was far more controversial.
I think the thing people want when they talk about invincible DP is that they want to be able to beat Meaty attacks on Hard Knockdown and have a thing where you have to respect your wakeup no matter what.
I don't know if you realize but the Skullgirls music that kicked in when you were explaining the DP differences was surprisingly fitting. The character Peacock in that game has two reversals, one for throw and one for physical hits.
Huh, from my experience I'd say universal 3 frame buffer window was by far the most controversial and most talked about single mechanic change in SFV. Overall though? The most controversial design change was just how tone deaf they were with their approach to appealing to entry level players/casuals. In a time where the FGC was largely against the idea of being easier for new players as a whole, they did it in some of the worst ways possible. They ended up changing a lot of mechanics that didn't even tackle the problem for new players, while hurting the creativity and/or skill expression for middle to high level players. Going out of your way to get rid of vortex, option selects, and hard-to-perform techniques doesn't solve any problems for casuals actually having fun in the game, while CAUSING problems for other more experienced players to the series. Things that would be difficult in most cases they just took out of the game (examples would be things like instant-air-anything, 1 and 2 frame links, rekka attacks, etc.). Overall the game just felt really limited at launch for no real reason - or at least no good reason. limitations out the wazoo .Oh you tried instant air cannon strike? you didn't wait until our regulated 5 feet off the ground rule so you just performed a normal instead. Oh what? you wanted to throw a fireball while jumping backwards? You absolute idiot, Imagine thinking Akuma knows how to perform a fireball in the air while in any state other than forward momentum. Man, I can enjoy SFV but this video just reminded me of why i never really *loved* SFV despite it getting (for the most part) better and better over the years. So many dumb decisions made for the sake of a better casual experience, just for almost none of them to make a difference in casual appeal, while making all the difference to everyone else. Now, i don't think it's ALL bad. I actually think the idea of having different defensive properties for different DPs based on input is a fun and good idea, my only gripe is that frame 3 strike invincibility just feels too situational to bother learning when in nearly every case you want to use it, it just won't work. I get the idea behind it, but i think it's too far on the useless side rather than "it's a good option to remember" side, as of right now. I think keeping it 1 frame invincible but only for melee strikes would put it at a better spot so it's more often there for decision making. You could still get thrown out of it, you'll still get hit by meaty projectiles, but it now has as much usage as the other 2 DPs, or at least it will come up in decision making just as often, more or less. As it is right now, for example, on wake ups depending on what your opponent is doing you have "should i block, ex dp, or light dp?" and "should i block, ex dp, or heavy dp?" but there's basically nothing that happens to make you ever specifically think "should i block, ex dp or medium dp?". A lot of times in SFV it feels like rock, paper, scissors but the option for rock is just a drawing on another piece of paper.
@@MansMan42069 what part sounded like I was crying over something? Maybe the part where I seemed frustrated over taking away options and creativity from the players that previous games had to offer? Weird, I can't imagine why anyone who wants to enjoy things would want to defend that in a game - but you do you.
Third strike had like 2 total invincible DPS. And SF2's timing was so strict that... good luck. There's a reason getting throw looped to death happens to good players in SF2.
Thank u he talking about balance what ken can uppercut u 3 times... and they rank up off of low ranks like bruh I fought soooo many gold's as an plain silver not super or ultra just silver
To me the most "heretical" change in SFV is the removal of chip damage kill (except CA). The game has been balanced around that (they introduced the white life mechanic, poison and fire DOTs etc...) so re-introducing chip kills would break it, but it is a major difference with all the previous Street Fighters and the vast majority of 2D fighting games.
I despise chip kills. It just feels so cheap that if I get knocked down I'm just screwed, or I can spend all my meter and be screwed twice as hard. At least guaranteeing a kill with CA vs maybe getting outplayed is a cost you have to weigh.
Yep. I actually cut a line out from Brian where said "you could tell who didn't read the patch notes" in the original broadcast, so blame me for that. Here's an excerpt from the season 2 patch notes from Cammy: "H Cannon Spike: • Added hurtbox to 1F-7F • Added throw invincibility to 1F-7F".
@@BrainGeniusAcademy thanks. I don't play the game, but I figured someone somewhere would've said something loudly if the use case was this explicit in the notes.
To play devil's advocate, couldn't they make it so that DPs couldn't be cancelled into anything on block? I do wonder how many people are aware of the properties of the different strength DPs.
My whole thing with this controversial change was that it completely changed the design of a shoto. Prior to SF5, Shotos were always known for being jack of all trades. Very basic normals, good fireballs, good pressure. Nothing crazy, but just overall solid, while maintaining being "not free on wake up" because they had the option of DP. In Sf5 season 1 this was reflected on even moreso, because the normals in this game are pathetic (especially for some of the shotos). But the fact that their invincible DP was intact, it made things a little easier on them since they had a general answer to deal with bullshit. Once that was taken away, shotos were severely weaker. Akuma did well, but he was also designed with the DP change in mind. All this, while crush-counter is in the game? CC ALONE made DPing through something a massive risk, but the removal of invincibility and forcing you to "guess" which pressure option they're going for makes the DP-user even less likely to use that tool lol. Not to sound like a shill, but after learning GGST, I will say that their option to balance DP has been the best IMO. DPs in Strive still maintain their invincibility, except for throws. If you bait a DP, you still get a massive punish, and if you hard read reversal from your opponent, you have an offensive answer to counter it as well with throw.
2:38 😆 Brian u know ur stuff. Who else's main on sf iv was Ken? Also I think removing Chun-li jiggling at character select screen was the most controversial literal design change.
Probably THE ONLY video explaining the deep shit of SFV where I would know what Brian was talking about before he demonstrated it. I felt proud. Now to just play the game more and get better at it.
I do think it was a mistake when they first made the change though. Like at first it was just a straight up nerf with no trade offs. In fact at first they made m.dp (the intended AA) to only be upper body invincible which was ridiculous. Eventually, after many more changes, Capcom arrived at these nuances which differentiate each DP and five years later (literally six months ago or so) Ken and Ryu finally got some buffs that make up for losing their meterless reversals. So ultimately I agree it was a good change but it was handled very poorly at the time from a pure balance standpoint.
The DPs had different versions since season 2 and the change was very welcomed by people that main non-DP characters since season 2 too since DP characters were just too strong in season 1.
I think that sentiment sums up a lot of SFV's lifecycle. Lots of changes made without fully considering the implications, then eventually it all came together and created a really solid fighter. I just hope they keep enough lessons learned from this for SFVI so they don't end up reinventing the wheel for another 5 years.
@@kevl0rneswath DPs have always had different versions and uses it's just that those differences were enhanced post S1 and . And I'm not sure why it matters if people who played non dp characters liked the change lol obviously they would since it benefited their characters. The point is that shotos got nerfed AND they got hit with a badly implemented universal DP change. Now its fine but at the time it was poor balancing plain and simple.
Great video, thanks for breaking that down! Dropped some knowledge I didn't know about for the DP frame invincibility. Definitely gonna help me going forward with developing a better gameplan as a Juri main!
The Ume-Shoriyuken, Daigo threw something like 40 DPs in one SFIV tourney and won lol A few were yolo and some were made to build him meter. A lot of people don’t remember this bc it’s been so long or didn’t play sfiv, but Daigo perfected the DP “spam”.
Like you said when you brought up the tier list I think the fact that you have to think about which dp to use makes the game better and more rewarding for better players
On season 2 M.dp didnt have the air atack invencibility until frame 3, that pissed me off so much, jumps like necally, balrog and ken where a nightmare do deal with, at least they fixed that later
Decapre's DP worked the same way but the only difference is all version are invincible on frame 1. Nobody does a heavy DP on a 3f gap in SFV. This is the same game where they let Bison players get away with his -6 Heavy Punch.
Shotos got angry that Capcom removed their crutches and forced them to actually learn how to play the game. However, that never stoped brazilian Kens, though.
Guess I'm not a SF purist, despite having played the games since world warrior lol. I never had a problem with the change to invincible dp moves. That said, I don't genuinely feel it was a necessary change, as every half-decent SF player learned to bait DP very quickly, and then you've got like a week to punish.
I like that SF is way more person Vs person. It really isn't character V character. The V meter is the design or idea of when your put in a corner....... Show them what you can
More content like these plz , great to have more ppl talking about history of a fighting game or fgc than gameplay videos except tournament ones , I still love to watch high level competition videos.
To S1's credit, back then the game had access to a bunch of free pressure made possible by antiair jabs and throwloops, so not only were invincible meterless dps justified, they were a damn neccessity imo, the earliest sf5 version (launch version) was balanced to deal with all thiese situations. Once other characters started to come out, the inequality started to feel more real, so they had to chop some heads. The point I'm trying to make here is that your game needs to have defensive options that can deal with the offensive options. Earliest sf5 offense was insane, so defensive options were made to match thay offense.
You know, I think one way they could have nerfed the dp while still making old heads happy is to make invincible dps not cancel-able. it would keep the tool around while not making it a checkmate scenario, which is one of the things you were complaining about with ryu's v-trigger cheese.
It would have messed up the whole super system. The other thing was to line up other characters that have to spend meter on fully invincible reversals. It was def the right way to nerf them i think old heads just over looked the way non metered dps worked one beating throws and one strikes
@@exiaR2x78 I'm not sure there is a right answer, it's just two different ways of going about solving a problem. I honestly just think it's interesting thinking about other ways problems can be solved.
@@Jordan_F yeah I think the wider issue was you had Karin, Chun Li, Rashid, Guile, Urien, Ibuki, Juri that all had to use meter compared to Ryu, Ken Cammy Necalli that didnt, also the characters with the armor reversals like Birdie, Mika, Laura, Gief, Rog all had to spend meter to get a shitty armor reversal. IDK how else they could have balanced it in a fair and interesting way besides what capcom did. Could you imagine how busted Akuma and Cammy would have been with meterless fully invincible dp's? Haha
The DP remains invencible, but now each strengh has a especific invencibility, weak DP is invencible to throw, médium DP invencible to attacks from the air, and the strong DP is invencible to fireballs and normal attacks. It can be diferente for some characters, check the game frama data to get The correct information.
Unpopular opinion: SFV took too long to get there, but it eventually got to a good place. Current SFV isn't nearly as technical as final build SFIV, but the interactive gameplay is more varied.
Just want to say this type of content is my favorite of yours. Providing history and context for specific gameplay mechanics is super interesting for me as a player that started with SFV and doesn't have a very large worldview in terms of other fighting games.
Same
THIS^^^^
THIS^^^^
i wonder if brian actually reads these comments?
Wholesome ending
Third Strike actually has very few meterless reversals (only ken and akuma Fierce DP). The rest required EX or super meter. I believe Daigo said that Third Strike was basically not a street fighter game for this reason.
I'm pretty Daigo thought it wasn't SF because it didn't have the standard strike-throw system.
Pretty sure neither Ken nor Akuma's fierce DPs are invulnerable, but they are some of the highest priority moves in the game. Akuma's teleport however is invincible.
just Ken's Fierce DP is invincible, the funny thing with Akuma is all of his DPs have invincibility. I also checked Dudley and Yun just to see what non-shotos have and they don't get any meterless invincible DPs either.
@@evan6711 Akuma teleport isn't invisible at start.
@@fightingforce8498 It isn’t invisible at all, I can see it throughout the duration ;)
The most controversial thing was adding a root kit to the PC version
Oh shit hey shreed
tbh i do not miss proximity normals, it feels really shitty when you are expecting a prox normal and you were just a smidge out of range, i definitely prefer having lots of command normals over any proximity but thats just me
lmao what a scrub mindset
I play Ken (in smash lol) but prox stuff not working is insanely annoying, I come from an entirely different series and still feel that street fighter pain.
Agreed!
@@smugaladdin8372 It's way worse in Smash imo. It's easier to feel out in SF
Proximity normals can add a lot of utility and versatility to a character. Adding on to Brian's video on emergent design, proximity normals can lead to that. You can get a lot of cool situational applications from proximity normals. Additionally, they help further differentiate characters from each other. I get that some people don't like that proximity normals are spacing decendent, but getting the spacing down is a skill. You can be consistent with it.
True Ken players don’t care
None of these special properties are actually exposed in the game itself anywhere, are they? I tried playing Guile for a time, and I remember I had to find some weird other web site that tracked hitboxes and invincibility frames rather than that stuff just being visible in training mode.
Nope. Can't find it ingame. Capcom does provide this info on CFN though. They're either lazy or the management doesn't let them work on 'unnecessary' things. BTW the frame advantage you see in training mode wasn't even there since the beginning. It's like a season 4 addition. Really sad.
This is one of the biggest mistake capcom did. If they don’t give full invulnerability for the next title capcom needs to provide in depth explanations of moves and their purpose similar to what GGST did really well IMO.
If you look at the demonstrations/character guides that are in-game, they do often mention stuff like invincibility properties on moves
Yes, as Kevin said, this information was always available in game, I remember learning Ryu back in 2018 and memorizing that medium DP was/is the best anti air option
Welcome to street fighter, where Capcom doesn't give a shit, and haven't given a shit for a long time
Do a DP tier list, but account for things like range, active frames and startup. It would be interesting to see if it stays the same of not. Great video.
That would be a cool video I'm betting Ken is SS Tier
Such a good idea! I hope this happens
Ken would easily be at the top. h.dp is insane at punishing otherwise impossible to punish moves.
Alex's is the worst probably
@@agustinrosado1153 probably but I don't consider his knee a dp it is supposedly an anti air
I think it's also worth mentioning that safejump setups aren't very common in SFV which is something that makes DPs a lot easier to deal with in other games.
But making them more common leads to more set play characters
I like how one of the messages after the 144p Ken was just "the mix"
Alright that banana Ken video was the funniest shit I've seen all year
I knew the dp's were designed to be used in specific situations but i didnt realize they had THIS many uses individually. Just when I think I knew everything there is to know about sfv my mind gets blown by content like this. Nice vid brian.
I haven't watched the video, but the most controversial thing about SFV is that they did not add my boy Abel.
I will never let this rest.
But I do like the change, even if I joined in late in SFV. Invincible wakeup DPs are just not fun to deal with. I've faced enough flowchart Ken in SF4 to last me a lifetime of seeing invincible wakeup DPs.
I like this change because I have that ONE friend who always mashes DP as his crutch, and then pretends he made some godlike read
Brian ok listen. You're the best SFV content creator at this point. The videos are amazing, well articulated, clever. Keep pushing bro, love from France.
Sorry for the low tier English, I'm better in baguette.
hon hon hon our croissant enjoyer friend
@@TheOwlMan8850 Bruh 😂
I'm sending Mr Crimson and Luffy to beat y all.
Y'all friends are too disrespectful 😂
Enjoy your day king, and keep pushing
@@TheOxiongarden aye we are bound in having to tease our homies
likewise, crown-wielder
@@TheOwlMan8850 😂😂😂
Peace brother !
worst design change was taking out chip kills without having to burn your whole bar
Agreed, especially in the context of SFV where frame traps made having a meterless invincible DP outrageously valuable
Wasn't Crush Counter in Street Fighter alpha 3 but left you in a juggling state
I think generally it's a good option to consider when balancing reversal options. If someone has a really good reversal that leads to some form of pressure/Oki it can be harder to land. If landing it sets you back to a neutral position in most cases, then maybe let it cover more more options on defense with just one button strength. The decision to implement should be weighed with risk reward and character strengths in mind
I spent 5 years learning how to do a dragon punch then Capcom did this SMH
I been since sf1 trying to land a dp in a real match and capcom did this fuck my life man
the interesting thing is with SF3, even though there a lot of DPs, invincibility is not ubiquitous, in fact it's a bit on the rarer side, they key thing is that because most DPs had very high priority and were very fast, so they beat out a lot of attacks anyway, but they would still trade in some situations
it's also interesting to see how SF3 Akuma has a similar design philosophy for his DPs to SF5; Light is strike invuln, Medium is throw invuln, and Heavy is the strongest and hardest to parry
Ironically, that gif of Ken's SRK is from third strike and is not invincible. The move has partial invincibility but in general loses clean to meaties, like all other DPs in 3s.
Honestly all these changes you listed makes sense, including the DP change.
Reminding me about Ryu's cheap DP > Super gimmick makes me realize in retrospect why they didn't give Ryu an invincible DP in 3S outside of EX. It's because he'd be able to do the exact same thing but arguably worse with 3S Denjin Hadoken super
Yeah except you could have counterplay by low parrying into throw on wakeup in 3s which could bait the dp and throw the denjin since denjin isn't throw invuln; additionally even in the situation where you do dp into denjinn in alot of the time if you don't stun your enemy from the denjin you will be punishable on hit.
Though you do have a point if the dp lands in that you take the hit from a heavy dp and then get a free denjinn setup, but just saying there is more nuance to the situation then you may initially think
@@gxgycf8348 fair point. I didn't even think about throwing the denjin after the parry or the punishable on hit scenario. Thank you for the knowledge check.
@@kholdkhaos64ray11 No prob, good talk :)
Up close denjin is punishable on hit if it doesnt stun though (edit nvm someone already said that)
many DPs in 3S aren't even invulnerable without EX (honestly having them is redundant with universal parries being an anti-meaty option) as well DP into Denjin was just for setup and while difficult was still parriable, punishable up close (ex, Ryu does this while you're cornered). Its far from toxic honestly, beats the shit out of most actual unblockable setups in 3S
L dp is throw invincible from frame 1
M dp is airborne invincible from frame 1
H dp is hit invincible from frame 3
Why do people use L dp for AAs instead of M dp?
@@happycamperds9917 iirc the order is different with some characters so that might be why. Or maybe m dp or h dp of their character travels too far to anti air someone right above your head properly.
If you’re talking about Akuma, Ryu, or Ken, they shouldn’t be using L DP tho.
for most.
other dps have slightly different invuls, like sagat's or necalli's
This is not a blanket statement, it varies from character to character.
I was in the FGC awhile back, but I just don't have to time to enjoy FGs anymore (although I did buy MB:TL and had a lot of fun!). Still, I love to listen to a truly experienced player speak; I subscribed off this vid.
I'm glad a dumb video I made in 2010 can be used constructively to make a point
Don't understand why people are so mad about invincible DPs when 3rd strike barely had any meterless reversals.
Said this before, but the sf3 series also had parries. A meterless, universal defensive mechanic. So not having frame 1 invul dps was justified in that game.
@@EonTheAien The difference is that there exist meterless reversals and parries dont account for grabs. Characters without meterless reversals or without reversals (like Twelve) struggle so much more than those with them as you can perform Oki with very little risk just by switching up timings. Parries aren't active forever.
Great Topic Brian_F.
To add more for this discussion, SOME DP attacks were TERRIBLE ANTI-AIRS at the start of Season 2 of SFV.
And this is where I myself, or some players became extremley pissed off at Street Fighter V Due to those Reversal DP Changes.
DP attacks "WERE NOT" invincible to Air-Attacks; so DP attacks traded...a lot. No matter how good players anticipated the opponet's jump-in attacks,
the DP would still likely be traded, so, players were being punish for being correct.
Furthermore, if you wanted to avoid DP trades, you had to spend Meter, or perform air-to-air anti airs, or better yet, just pick Akuma (Shoto) because he didn't have those issues.
Those Anti-air traded DP issues absoultely killed the Poster Boy Shotos; Ryu & Ken.
And it took CAPCOM about 4 months, at the end Aprill 2017, to address those issue,
and how they resolved it was by then adding, "invincibility for airborne attacks for frames 1 to 6F for the Medium Version of Shoryuken and etc."
For those curious: Links to the Patch notes back in Season 2 of SFV and there were two Patch notes
SFV Season 2 Beginning Patch Notes, December 2016 ►►► www.eventhubs.com/news/2016/dec/19/character-balance-changes-season-2-street-fighter-5/
SFV Season 2.5 Patch Notes( Fixed the DP issues), Aprill 2017 ►►► www.eventhubs.com/news/2017/mar/15/street-fighter-5s-latest-balance-changes-revealed-available-end-april/
Thank you. Smug ass top level players sometimes. Although brian probably didnt mean to purposefully look over it. But this was important. Those "were never lost invincibility" examples are great but fail to acknowledge they actually were not and did suck balls for few months directly after the initial nerf.
I've seen a couple of channels discussing this topic, though you offered more context by showing how each DP can have its own use. The way I had thought of it was that having easy access to an invincible move made the other universal defensive options in the game less important. Even though V-Shift didn't exist at the time this change happened, a successful V-Reversal usually wouldn't give you as much advantage as a successful reversal DP would, so the risk-reward was unbalanced between those two options for the characters who had it.
I know about this change to invincibility types, but in practice I never see anyone actually light DP out of throws. The risk/reward is simply too skewed in the attacker's favor, since they also have the option to block in addition to meaty, which also beats heavy DP since those aren't frame 1 invincible. The rock-paper-scissors aspect works in tick throw/frame trap scenarios but that is in itself still mixup on top of throw/meaty.
I could try and be psychic and get 100+ damage for guessing right on a multilayered mixup, or if I guess wrong I'm eating a 300 damage crush counter punish. Alternatively, I could just wait and take the 150 damage throw or just block until they no longer have advantage. Or I could just jump out and corner swap, eating 60 damage from meaty if I guess wrong. If I know the opponent wants to pressure, it's better to just spend the bar because then I don't have to guess from throw/tick throw/meaty and gamble my chances of success on an already risky move.
I catched a skullgirls song and ordinary days. Man that’s some good taste
now i picked up metro kingdom and sf3 dudley stage o ma DAMN 🦫
In seriousness tho, this adds depth to the mechanics, good stuff
It does but it also changes the game in a very big way. You REALLY don't want to get knocked down. This also indirectly makes jumps and dashes so much riskier which in turn makes the game very very slow. IMHO this is a good thing. It makes the game stand out on the current market where you can block in air, air dash, run, double jump and so on. Personally I like it since I was, so to speak, raised on SFV but I can see how some people hate this change.
@@dirkdiggler9505 It was honestly a good change and people definitely overlook the fact that L dp and H dps still have aome invincibility with M still being the full air invincibility as that was original intead as the anti air dp. I think the hate comes from people not undersganding the change and adjusting to it when they play
@@exiaR2x78 I fully understand the properties of the DPs in SFV and it is a shit change that encourages brainless offense, not thoughtful defense. The risk/reward is so skewed on SFV DPs that it's considered a stupid decision to ever use them in the first place.
@@Cybrisk Ya know theres this mechanic thats been in SFV since launch called V-Reversal? Most characters pressure buttons being mediums can be blown up by this.
@@exiaR2x78 It loses to throws. I want my mechanic that blows up people autopiloting strike/throw, no compromises. I don't care about tertiary mechanics.
As a more casual player I do hate how this isnt conveyed well enough for everyone to know it. I have minor gripes with the system otherwise but thats the biggest one that I think people can agree on.
I recently started playing Sakura and I lost count of the amount of times my dps traded in the air. I enjoy this change and I am really excited to see how SF6 will play
Sakura specifically doesn’t have a real dp so even after the season 2 changes none of that applied to sakura being added in season 3. Her only real reversal costs meter.
More than likely your dp in any game as Sakura is not a reliable anti air option. Slow, weird arch/travel, and has no invulnerability at all unless you use meter. cr.HP is your go to aa, it’s as good as Poison’s cr.MP.
In exchange, none of sakura’s dp (besides EX) are counter hit state so she avoids any crush counters.
EDIT: In sfv your only real reliable time to use sakura’s dp as an anti air is after a fully charged fireball on someone’s knockdown and also if G is leveled up and you need to take out a level.
Sakura has never had a fully invincible dp without meter in any SF games that im aware of, i might be miss remember the alpha games though
@@exiaR2x78 In alpha iirc she has a little dash before she even goes for the dp so with that start up I would assume it has no invul properties. Also considering what sakura’s based on she’s imitating a shoto while all her shoto tools are bad (in a design sense), weak fireball, irregular dp, and tatsu that are short or travels in a arch form.
@@null-wq5cp Came here to say this. Always felt weird to have her DP game nerfed for lore reasons. I think it's part of her design as a character who plays good footsies because of her walkspeed with only 1 dedicated anti air to balance that. But also how much stronger would she be with the same tools as other characters in the game like Cammy who is just as fast
@@chris-cu3kl Cammy is a better Sakura in SFV
This change makes sense light, medium, heavy, and ex moves should all have different properties anyway
I partialy agree with the new change, exept for heavy DP not being invincible on frame one, not only you have to guess if on the frametrap it's a throw or a strike, but if you think it's a strike you also have to guess if it's a 3 frame gap or less, and knowing evey single frametrap gap is mostly unrealistic, (altough for some giga brain players it's possible) but even if you know all of then, accessing this info midmatch on a matchup you don't see often is very unlikely, you'll be focused on ghessing the throw and never feel confident to throw a dp like... ever, i can only speak from personal experience, but i've litteraly never seen anyone do a heavy dp out of blockstrings, but i've seen light dps when they read my SPD, i may have quited sf 5 at this point (for a totally unrelated reason to this dp controversy, i just suffered too much lag), so i can't say it would still be the case right now, but that was my experience playing the game, and i started on the end of season 2 and played all the way untill oro and akira's release.
As an addendum, Lucia's light DP has projectile and throw invul. I'm not sure if her heavy DP starts up fast enough to beat strikes. Medium isn't reliable as an anti-air due to the spacing needed to land it being at odds with when someone would jump in.
street fighter 3 actually only has 2 characters (ken & akuma) with non-EX full invincible DPs, everyone else was either no non-super reversals or needed EX. closer to launch SF5 in a way.
I actually like Crush counters, nerf to full invincible Dp hurt most but It help give SF5 a different identity. Didnt mind it in the end but it just adds more complexity
Why would a tick throw setup always land on frame three?
As controversial as the no inv dp is, I’d say that how sfv’s frame data, stubby normals/no proximity normals and how damn near everyone has a way to get around projectiles was far more controversial.
The timing at 0:44 is immaculate
I think the thing people want when they talk about invincible DP is that they want to be able to beat Meaty attacks on Hard Knockdown and have a thing where you have to respect your wakeup no matter what.
I don't know if you realize but the Skullgirls music that kicked in when you were explaining the DP differences was surprisingly fitting. The character Peacock in that game has two reversals, one for throw and one for physical hits.
I liked that they removed it even if I did stop playing. Too many depended on it and it forced them to actually learn.
Huh, from my experience I'd say universal 3 frame buffer window was by far the most controversial and most talked about single mechanic change in SFV. Overall though? The most controversial design change was just how tone deaf they were with their approach to appealing to entry level players/casuals. In a time where the FGC was largely against the idea of being easier for new players as a whole, they did it in some of the worst ways possible. They ended up changing a lot of mechanics that didn't even tackle the problem for new players, while hurting the creativity and/or skill expression for middle to high level players. Going out of your way to get rid of vortex, option selects, and hard-to-perform techniques doesn't solve any problems for casuals actually having fun in the game, while CAUSING problems for other more experienced players to the series. Things that would be difficult in most cases they just took out of the game (examples would be things like instant-air-anything, 1 and 2 frame links, rekka attacks, etc.). Overall the game just felt really limited at launch for no real reason - or at least no good reason. limitations out the wazoo .Oh you tried instant air cannon strike? you didn't wait until our regulated 5 feet off the ground rule so you just performed a normal instead. Oh what? you wanted to throw a fireball while jumping backwards? You absolute idiot, Imagine thinking Akuma knows how to perform a fireball in the air while in any state other than forward momentum.
Man, I can enjoy SFV but this video just reminded me of why i never really *loved* SFV despite it getting (for the most part) better and better over the years. So many dumb decisions made for the sake of a better casual experience, just for almost none of them to make a difference in casual appeal, while making all the difference to everyone else.
Now, i don't think it's ALL bad. I actually think the idea of having different defensive properties for different DPs based on input is a fun and good idea, my only gripe is that frame 3 strike invincibility just feels too situational to bother learning when in nearly every case you want to use it, it just won't work. I get the idea behind it, but i think it's too far on the useless side rather than "it's a good option to remember" side, as of right now. I think keeping it 1 frame invincible but only for melee strikes would put it at a better spot so it's more often there for decision making. You could still get thrown out of it, you'll still get hit by meaty projectiles, but it now has as much usage as the other 2 DPs, or at least it will come up in decision making just as often, more or less. As it is right now, for example, on wake ups depending on what your opponent is doing you have "should i block, ex dp, or light dp?" and "should i block, ex dp, or heavy dp?" but there's basically nothing that happens to make you ever specifically think "should i block, ex dp or medium dp?". A lot of times in SFV it feels like rock, paper, scissors but the option for rock is just a drawing on another piece of paper.
Cry more.
@@MansMan42069 what part sounded like I was crying over something? Maybe the part where I seemed frustrated over taking away options and creativity from the players that previous games had to offer? Weird, I can't imagine why anyone who wants to enjoy things would want to defend that in a game - but you do you.
@@TheRealTurboPasta The entire post was you crying over a game thinking your opinion was valid. Keep at it.
@@MansMan42069 lol so you didn't read the comment. Alright man, take care.
@@TheRealTurboPasta I read it. Which is how I came to the conclusion you were simply throwing a tantrum over something you're clueless about.
Third strike had like 2 total invincible DPS. And SF2's timing was so strict that... good luck. There's a reason getting throw looped to death happens to good players in SF2.
i really can't get over this though it's funny, the ogs and purests or skilled players, mad they can't spam same move with zero risk or skill bruh
It's wild that "needing a specific counter to beat your opponents option" is a hot take
Ngl, everytime he plays Ordinary Days, I get super distracted from jamming out, and I stop listening. Just a straight banger...
being a bbtag player I can say after seeing the other extreme, give everyone a meterless reversal yeah sfv is perfectly fine
3rd Strike doesnt have invul DPs for every character. The only invincible non meter invul DPs are Akuma's fierce DP and Ken's fierce DP.
Idk about oro but for the shotos
L DP: throw invincible frames 1-3
M DP: anti air invincible frames 1-6
H DP: strike invincible frames 3-6
sf4 enthusiasts: NOOOOO, DID YOU JUST REMOVE INVINCIBILITY FROM WAKE UP DP'S?!?!?
Sf3 enjoyers: Yes
Eh true, but wasn't that the game where they introduced ex?
And parry?
There's also back teck compared to tech in place and v-shift. So I assume SFV doesn't need any more crazy defensive options
Thank u he talking about balance what ken can uppercut u 3 times... and they rank up off of low ranks like bruh I fought soooo many gold's as an plain silver not super or ultra just silver
To me the most "heretical" change in SFV is the removal of chip damage kill (except CA). The game has been balanced around that (they introduced the white life mechanic, poison and fire DOTs etc...) so re-introducing chip kills would break it, but it is a major difference with all the previous Street Fighters and the vast majority of 2D fighting games.
I love it. I love everything about the health, gray life, chip system in V.
I despise chip kills. It just feels so cheap that if I get knocked down I'm just screwed, or I can spend all my meter and be screwed twice as hard. At least guaranteeing a kill with CA vs maybe getting outplayed is a cost you have to weigh.
Was this in the patch notes? Because I don't ever recall reading or anyone covering this until now, and it feels really late
Yep. I actually cut a line out from Brian where said "you could tell who didn't read the patch notes" in the original broadcast, so blame me for that. Here's an excerpt from the season 2 patch notes from Cammy: "H Cannon Spike: • Added hurtbox to 1F-7F • Added throw invincibility to 1F-7F".
@@BrainGeniusAcademy thanks. I don't play the game, but I figured someone somewhere would've said something loudly if the use case was this explicit in the notes.
To play devil's advocate, couldn't they make it so that DPs couldn't be cancelled into anything on block?
I do wonder how many people are aware of the properties of the different strength DPs.
If you play any shoto you should be and in turn Ryu and Ken being popular online characters in theory most people shouls know?
@@exiaR2x78 you'd be surprised
1:30 Only Kyle Hebert and Hiroki Takahashi can say the tastu's full name right
Great vid Brian, I do agree with your opinion. The nerf to invincible Meter-less DP’s was needed!
My whole thing with this controversial change was that it completely changed the design of a shoto. Prior to SF5, Shotos were always known for being jack of all trades. Very basic normals, good fireballs, good pressure. Nothing crazy, but just overall solid, while maintaining being "not free on wake up" because they had the option of DP. In Sf5 season 1 this was reflected on even moreso, because the normals in this game are pathetic (especially for some of the shotos). But the fact that their invincible DP was intact, it made things a little easier on them since they had a general answer to deal with bullshit. Once that was taken away, shotos were severely weaker. Akuma did well, but he was also designed with the DP change in mind. All this, while crush-counter is in the game? CC ALONE made DPing through something a massive risk, but the removal of invincibility and forcing you to "guess" which pressure option they're going for makes the DP-user even less likely to use that tool lol.
Not to sound like a shill, but after learning GGST, I will say that their option to balance DP has been the best IMO. DPs in Strive still maintain their invincibility, except for throws. If you bait a DP, you still get a massive punish, and if you hard read reversal from your opponent, you have an offensive answer to counter it as well with throw.
2:38 😆 Brian u know ur stuff. Who else's main on sf iv was Ken?
Also I think removing Chun-li jiggling at character select screen was the most controversial literal design change.
Probably THE ONLY video explaining the deep shit of SFV where I would know what Brian was talking about before he demonstrated it. I felt proud.
Now to just play the game more and get better at it.
sick video, thanks.
btw I love the "he needs it" joke in fighting games lol.
Similarly to the removal of proximity normals, I miss neutral jump buttons being different. Only Chun and Nash have one IIRC.
Wish Vega had his pseudo Flip Kick as his neutral j.HK just like in SF4
I never got why neutral and diagonal jumps had separate sets of normals.
I like this change also. My only complaint is that these invincibility properties aren't explained in-game.
I do think it was a mistake when they first made the change though. Like at first it was just a straight up nerf with no trade offs. In fact at first they made m.dp (the intended AA) to only be upper body invincible which was ridiculous. Eventually, after many more changes, Capcom arrived at these nuances which differentiate each DP and five years later (literally six months ago or so) Ken and Ryu finally got some buffs that make up for losing their meterless reversals. So ultimately I agree it was a good change but it was handled very poorly at the time from a pure balance standpoint.
The DPs had different versions since season 2 and the change was very welcomed by people that main non-DP characters since season 2 too since DP characters were just too strong in season 1.
I think that sentiment sums up a lot of SFV's lifecycle. Lots of changes made without fully considering the implications, then eventually it all came together and created a really solid fighter. I just hope they keep enough lessons learned from this for SFVI so they don't end up reinventing the wheel for another 5 years.
@@kevl0rneswath DPs have always had different versions and uses it's just that those differences were enhanced post S1 and . And I'm not sure why it matters if people who played non dp characters liked the change lol obviously they would since it benefited their characters. The point is that shotos got nerfed AND they got hit with a badly implemented universal DP change. Now its fine but at the time it was poor balancing plain and simple.
Great video, thanks for breaking that down! Dropped some knowledge I didn't know about for the DP frame invincibility. Definitely gonna help me going forward with developing a better gameplan as a Juri main!
whats the song at 11:10 ?
Let’s be honest, you’re gonna mash DP, get read and blown up for not blocking after watching this.
The most controversial design change was removing Zangief’s throw invincibility.
The Ume-Shoriyuken, Daigo threw something like 40 DPs in one SFIV tourney and won lol A few were yolo and some were made to build him meter. A lot of people don’t remember this bc it’s been so long or didn’t play sfiv, but Daigo perfected the DP “spam”.
Like you said when you brought up the tier list I think the fact that you have to think about which dp to use makes the game better and more rewarding for better players
I don't even play SFV and even I knew this lmao
based Lisa music in the background
On season 2 M.dp didnt have the air atack invencibility until frame 3, that pissed me off so much, jumps like necally, balrog and ken where a nightmare do deal with, at least they fixed that later
Decapre's DP worked the same way but the only difference is all version are invincible on frame 1. Nobody does a heavy DP on a 3f gap in SFV. This is the same game where they let Bison players get away with his -6 Heavy Punch.
Shotos got angry that Capcom removed their crutches and forced them to actually learn how to play the game.
However, that never stoped brazilian Kens, though.
I remember the "March Update" that came out March 31st KEKW
My mind is blown! This is a big deal. I didn’t know this. Thanks
Did you make this video pre Luke? I think he's S tier in the DP chart
people complaining abt dp change... meanwhile many character have NO dp. none of these options apply. sad
Ik it's off topic but i need to know the source for his twitch follow notification sound
I think it's Mario slipping around in goo from Super Mario Sunshine
Pretty sure Luke's DP's are all fully anti air invincible....signs of the future ?
WTH, I played this game for 2 years and didn't know these light medium heavy Reversal. Thanks 👍
Guess I'm not a SF purist, despite having played the games since world warrior lol. I never had a problem with the change to invincible dp moves. That said, I don't genuinely feel it was a necessary change, as every half-decent SF player learned to bait DP very quickly, and then you've got like a week to punish.
Wow had no idea, great content as always!
I like that SF is way more person Vs person. It really isn't character V character. The V meter is the design or idea of when your put in a corner....... Show them what you can
Typed in Dan Carlin Martin Luther and this was one of the first 5 results. Awesome good job youtube
More content like these plz , great to have more ppl talking about history of a fighting game or fgc than gameplay videos except tournament ones , I still love to watch high level competition videos.
To S1's credit, back then the game had access to a bunch of free pressure made possible by antiair jabs and throwloops, so not only were invincible meterless dps justified, they were a damn neccessity imo, the earliest sf5 version (launch version) was balanced to deal with all thiese situations. Once other characters started to come out, the inequality started to feel more real, so they had to chop some heads.
The point I'm trying to make here is that your game needs to have defensive options that can deal with the offensive options. Earliest sf5 offense was insane, so defensive options were made to match thay offense.
You know, I think one way they could have nerfed the dp while still making old heads happy is to make invincible dps not cancel-able. it would keep the tool around while not making it a checkmate scenario, which is one of the things you were complaining about with ryu's v-trigger cheese.
It would have messed up the whole super system. The other thing was to line up other characters that have to spend meter on fully invincible reversals. It was def the right way to nerf them i think old heads just over looked the way non metered dps worked one beating throws and one strikes
@@exiaR2x78 I'm not sure there is a right answer, it's just two different ways of going about solving a problem. I honestly just think it's interesting thinking about other ways problems can be solved.
@@Jordan_F yeah I think the wider issue was you had Karin, Chun Li, Rashid, Guile, Urien, Ibuki, Juri that all had to use meter compared to Ryu, Ken Cammy Necalli that didnt, also the characters with the armor reversals like Birdie, Mika, Laura, Gief, Rog all had to spend meter to get a shitty armor reversal. IDK how else they could have balanced it in a fair and interesting way besides what capcom did.
Could you imagine how busted Akuma and Cammy would have been with meterless fully invincible dp's? Haha
2:45
Can someone give me the link to that video?🤣🤣🤣
A well put together, fantastic video.
I think that the three dps were consistently given different invincibility properties in a later patch, not the one that removed full invincibility
I remember this is how decapre's dp worked in sf4
The DP remains invencible, but now each strengh has a especific invencibility, weak DP is invencible to throw, médium DP invencible to attacks from the air, and the strong DP is invencible to fireballs and normal attacks. It can be diferente for some characters, check the game frama data to get The correct information.
Unpopular opinion: SFV took too long to get there, but it eventually got to a good place. Current SFV isn't nearly as technical as final build SFIV, but the interactive gameplay is more varied.
the fact that SFV lasted more than 5 years, proves it. Just compare it with another fighting games.
USFIV isn't as technical as the final build of Street Fighter 3 😂
That’s a popular opinion
I feel like in SF1 every special move was invincible.
Apparently the guy that made the Ken video watched a lot of Zangitroll. I like it, lol.