Well done, I wish my Mother was still living to see this video. During WWII she operated a surface grinder in a defense plant in Cleveland, Ohio. Dad (a B-24 pilot) always said Mom must have been the one that worked on his windshield wipers...they never worked! I didn't get in on that discussion; I miss them both a lot. Well, now I'm looking forward to seeing the rest of the preparations and testing of that great old machine. Thanks Keith, Greg.
I have a 1946 Brown & Sharpe 2L surface grinder that is mechanically a brother or sister to yours, Keith. Mine is 6x18" and uses 7" grinding wheels. Same type mechanical table drive, same type plain bearing spindle, same ratcheting cross feeds. Amazingly high quality machine, made from the 1920s to the 1950s. Works fine. Watch out for what oil you put in the spindle. My spindle is fitted and set up with 110 millionths clearance between the spindle and the bronze bearing boxes. It requires a special spindle oil, Mobile Velocite #3, ISO 2(!) viscosity. It is about as thin as kerosene. If a thicker oil is run in the plain bearings, it will overheat and lock up. The spindle needs to be set up and cared for by the book. Yours of course might have different clearances and perhaps needs a different oil, but be careful what you use in that spindle! Do not start the spindle unless the constant level oiler has plenty of the correct oil in it.
I'm constantly amazed that you can find the time (and the energy) to work at your job, tend you family and house, work in your shop, record and edit and post these videos, ...
I'm a Landis Tool Co. apprentice! Journeyman 33 years on. Wayne's Bar, PA. 17268. I didn't know they had bigger (3S) surface grinders. They had a 1S (I guess) hand-powered (ANCIENT) machine in the Vise Dept. I ran.
When I was going through training on surface grinders one of the first things they taught us was to angle the diamond *away* from the wheel. Basically it's a safety issue since it *is* possible for the diamond to catch the wheel the way you had it set up. Angling away also puts the wheel in contact with the broad-side of the diamond first and not the tip, so the tip is only doing the fine removal of the abrasive and not the gross amount like you did. I have seen a grinding wheel explosion (not me) and it will make you *really* respect the power in a spinning wheel.
Had not seen a bed grinder like that since the 70's in the machine shop at the trade school I was attending and then I T.I.G. a band around the thing to channel grease to a grooved exit ground in too . Used it as a griddle top for cooking at the hunting camp. It worked GREAT
Keith, it would be amazing and beneficial to see you having an apprentice! Keeping with tradition, to watch them learning as your doing and show the rest of us the benefit of teaching. (yes, its not lost on me that your videos are learning aids)
Great video. Just one small comment on your wheel dressing procedure. It looked like you had the diamond mounted beyond the center line which is correct, but the diamond itself was pointing into the wheel which we were always told will push the abrasive back into the wheel instead of allowing it to clean the wheel. We were told that is why the cylindrical grinders always had the diamond mounted just below the center line and facing down ward. Thanks for all of your videos. LaVern
I am not a machinist but have used one of these in auto mode a few times. On one occasion I was staring at the piece in the bed, rythmically going back and forth for some time. The only time in my life I became hypnotized - instead of the piece moving back and forth, the room did ! - I crumpled to my knees but quickly recovered. So beware.
That's a good start on the grinder Keith. I hope it is nice flat surface so you can go ahead and get the magchuck mounted and ground in. regards from the UK.
Awesome video.I spent some time this week on a Sharp SG grinding some V-Blocks (taking Machining class at Tech Coll). So this was right up my alley, for the week. Thanks for the videos!
This is quite a good grinder. You probably know to keep the drip oil feeder full and set the delivery rate to about two drops per minute. I recommend that you fix the dust shield at the top of the grinder to prevent abrasive dust from getting to the elevating lead screw when you dress the wheel. Also, when installing the chuck, don't honk down on the downstream attaching bolt as the chuck needs to slide a bit when it changes temperature. If you spot in the bottom of the chuck after grinding the bottom, distortion of the way surface of the longitudinal travel will be avoided.
Keith, about the table lifting at each reversal...I'd be interested to see your tenths indicator set up to indicate vertical table movement, then run the reverser through its cycle slowly (by hand?), looking for a momentary lift on each stroke. I bet it looks a little like an EKG. Would be interesting to compare if you can simply push the table each way without using the drive mechanism.
Hello Kieth, great job getting this old machine back in working order. I do have a concern, as I see others noted it too. I fear your table is NOT as flat as you believe. I'm not familiar with this machine but all the grinders I've worked on have a rod end link that attaches to the table, if these are too tight or lacking lubrication they can rock the table. Do check both ends of that link. Can you do a second video checking it for flatness? I'd love to see how much, if any, light can be seen under a straightedge laid across the table.
I notice that the wheel would grind on the right end of the table the moment the table changed directions. there is the possibility that the table would wobble at that point and you could test that by hand feeding that same place at a slow speed to see if that also engages at that same spot.
I think that even if the table lifts when it changes directions it simply means that when you grind a part that you make the pass go beyond the part you are grinding.
the wheel seems to be cutting only until the middle of the table in both ways. it behaves like it is rocking. I wouldn't be surprised if you find a high spot just in the middle. power feed may be lifting one side at a time. how are those gibs looking? i love to see your machines in motion, keith!
When you do the video on checking how level the surface of the bed is now, you might want to explain how the bed grinding hits the high points. There was some concern over where it was grinding (and not).
I was so excited to finally see the surface grinder running that I clicked "Like" before I even watched the video. The pink stone reminds me - was it the vise you threatened to paint pink? Now you will regret changing your mind. Would have gone great with the stone.
Keith, the ends of the cylinder rod, where it attaches to the table must be a little loose. If they are to tight it will cause the table to lift at one end or the other. I've been repairing machinery for over 40 years, trust me. You have to leave those rod ends a little loose. Thanks for a great vid, Cliff
Cliff, i am a journeyman machine repairman (27 yrs) and i agree with you, i believe he has now ground himself a table with a high center. However Keith is a great asset to those old machines, just needs a little more experience on surface grinders.
I agree on hydraulic cylinder driven tables. In this case his machine may have a gear driven table . Around 16:05 Keith puts it in gear to cycle the table and you hear the gears engage. I have a Brown & Sharpe No. 13 Universal Tool Grinder with a gear driven table. When I got it the rack under the table had grease hardened on the right side of table and it lifted the table with full right travel.
I bet you have either coolant or powerful dust extraction on that grinder by now. When I set my old G&L grinder up, I ground my first job dry and it took me weeks to get the shop cleaned up!
Thanks for (another) great video Keith. I have a question though. I noticed that the grinding wheel was sparking only when entering the bed and not when exiting. Surely it should have sparked both entering and exiting? I know absolutely nothing about surface grinders but this would indicate to me that the feed mechanism is 'lifting' the table end as it pushes it forward. i.e. off the ways. If this is indeed so the bed would be convex so I hope your check with the straight edge and dial indicators proved otherwise. Watching your machine shop videos makes me think I made a wrong choice as to my career. I went the IT route and not the millwright route like my grandfather. I had the choice and was so sure of myself back then. Ah well, I have retired now and keep myself busy in my wood shop, my eldest brother has the metal workshop as he is a marine engineer but he lives 800 miles from me. :P Once again thanks for all the interesting videos, much appreciated by many of us.
The Okamoto grinder I learned on had different feed pattern options. It could be set to step over the Y-axis every time it reversed the X-axis direction, or only step over every *other* time it reversed. Basically, it amounted to a cutting pass going left, and a spring (spark out) pass going right. Is it possible that machine has something similar?
Hello Keith, Great video and nice to see a new machine working and I never have seen such a grinder machine. I only know those simple grinders at the bench but not an machine like that, and I am curious about to see the first job on this machine. Many greetings from Roel !
Hi Keith, I noticed there is a pressure gauge on the head above the spindle. It stayed on zero the whole time the machine was operating. Just curious what it's function is? I thought it might be oil pressure for the spindle bearing, but you explained the lubrication for that bearing is via the drip oiler, so I'm at a loss to understand what that gauge is for. Looks like a really well made machine.
I just watched your hand crank grinder video. I think you were really harsh on your drill press, puttting a bolt in the chuck and applying side-loads to the spindle. Are you aware of this and have decided you never wanna do accurate work with the machine in question?
You are probably done checking already, but one of those straight edges of mine that you have might work good to check this. Looks like a nice machine!!
Hi Keith, Love to see these old machines brought back to life. I have an Abrasive 3B model just like yours, only without the hardened ways. I have a question of what weight oil you are using in the spindle and the gearbox/saddle and do you fill the saddle up to the top of the oil cap? I am using a light machine oil mixed with mineral oil for the spindle to get it thin and I use 30 wt for the gearbox and saddle. I acquired this grinder only a couple years ago and I'm just getting into surface grinding. Even with my amateur skills this machine makes beautiful mirror finishes. Keep up the great work.
Hi Keith, very interesting video. I was a bit concerned that the wheel seemed to only be cutting while heading towards the middle of the bed - never on the second half of the stroke, going either way. It would make me fear that the grinder was cutting a "bow" into the bed, maybe if it is tilting up when being fed? Anyway, I hope it's not, and I look forward to seeing how you inspect it!
Why is it only grinding the left side when going to the right and grinding the right side when going to the left ? If the course was flat, shouldn't it grind the whole surface on each pass ?
I can imagine that's what's going through Keiths mind as he was making this video. That's why he expressed concern at the end but in a controlled diplomatic way. I hope there's no runout and if there is it's something he's able to deal with. He's spend a lot of time getting and setting this machine up, it would be a shame if it's warped.
Those last couple of light passes should have had almost no tool pressure, thus no deflection, and they ground that way too. I think this indicates the table is rocking side to side. Too much backlash in the feed and ways. The ways on the table need to be tightened a little. This would be why the ends cleaned up before the center. My bet would be the table was pretty close to flat, but the ways have worn. The evidence will be if the table is now hump backed after grinding, it was rocking.
Notso Fresh thanks for the explanation, i saw that as well. and was wondering the same thing. @keith rucker, glad to see the machine coming together, ive been wondering about it since the scraping vid.
Hi Kieth great video as usual. I was just wondering, it seemed as though the wheel only cut half way along each pass, at least I could not see any sparks after the mid point. This applied to both directions. Forgive me if this a dumb question as I'm not familiar with surface grinders. Thanks for the entertaining videos Rod
Well, this is a used machine, no telling what the last owner/operator had done with it....and the table might be 'low' in the center due to things being set there and pushed around.....even the machine not being level can cause a lot of issues....just my opinion here of curse.... No dumb questions......I'm no expert on these grinders either....but I do understand the mechanics.....
I wonder if the wheel degradation made the front or back lower as went across. That sure is a big table. I know Stan encounter that on his chuck which is much smaller. It will be interesting to see the results! Thanks Keith.
The finish between a fast traverse speed and a slow one may look the same but the slow one will cause way more heat to be put into the part which is the mortal enemy of surface and cylindrical grinding.
Keith...Big Fan...Not a machinist, but an Electrical Engineer, so I'm curious. I noticed that when you were taking the 0.5 thousands cut...when the table was traveling from right to left, there were sparks when the grinder first engaged the surface, but the sparks diminished until they seemed to stop when the table got to near the mid point of travel...the table continued to move, and no further sparks appeared ... then when the table reversed itself, and began traveling left to right, sparks appeared when the grinder first engaged the right edge of the table, and the same thing seemed to happen...sparks over the first half of the travel, but none at the end. It is almost as if the table end that is being drawn toward the grinder is slightly higher than the trailing end...could that be happening, or is that behavior normal...? (almost as if there is a worm gear mounted to a point in the center of the table, and the surface of the ways is giving some friction, and the worm gear is distorting or lifting up the side of the table that it is driving forward...could that possibly be?) You would think that if there are sparks being generated when the wheel first engages an end of the table, there should have been some when that same end of the table was the finishing end... Keep up the great work. I'm learning a lot, and I know there are many more like me who admire and appreciate what you guys are doing. I see that KaNaRD1233 hours ago asked the same question...sorry for this being a repeat...really love the work.
I too am very concerned by the interrupted cutting. I run a Brown and Sharp grinder at work and have never experienced anything like that. It always cut full length in both directions. I also think that the clamping blocks should be ground. They were obviously ground when the machine was first assembled. Try swapping the left and right stops and I would guess you can pick up the extra 4 inches of travel needed to grind the entire surface.
If the table is too worn or warped to fix by grinding, can you still get a replacement, or do you make one yoursel? Perhaps because never took a shop class in school, fascinated by the things you do in your videos. Thank you for making them. You & Mr. Pete (Tubalcane) provide a real education on classic industrial tech, curjous if you two know each other?
Just a quick comment here Keith. You and most others know about the positioning of the dressing diamond, but a complete novice may not know how to set the diamond past the lowest part of the wheel to avoid a catastrophic dig-in. Perhaps a quick reminder may be of benefit. Great video though, as always.
Very cool. Is that a Sellers Grinder there next to it, behind you in the video? I would love to see a feature on that too. I have a Sellers with so many attachments, and frankly I don't know what they all do.
nice job, to get the best finish, you shouldn't run a lower table speed,, because there is more heat building up and more likely to distort the table according to the manual of my jung surface grinder it´s better to make smaller steps across but i´m like you just starting and surface grinding is fun. makes things not only precise but also very pretty
I have a general question about surface grinders. Doesn't backlash have to be considered when moving the wheel down by a small amount, say a tenth of a thousandth? I can see that backlash wouldn't be an issue when raising the wheel (due to gravity). But when going down by a tiny amount, isn't it possible for the friction of the vertical ways to prevent wheel movement until the backlash is taken up? Or is the head assembly (motor, wheel, etc.) so heavy that gravity will always pull the head down regardless of backlash?
Hi, don't know how it runs on the bigger machines like this but I have small manual Erfurt surface grinder and this backlash effect is higly visible here. I have simple DRO out of digital caliper so every time I am going down with spindle , I am going sligtly deeper than I want and turn the spindle back-upper where I wanna to grind every pass. Bit annoying, but after few tryes I made it automatically and gives me certainty I am where wanna to be, haha...hope it helps. Petr
Hi Keith, What does the bottom of your magnet look like? Is it as bad as the table top before you ground it? What kind of grinding experience do you have? Steve
I am assuming you think about wear on the diameter of the wheel, with regards to dimension and flatness of the finished part. What he is doing here is stepping over only a fraction of the width of the wheel at a time. This means only the leading edge (side) of the wheel is actually doing any cutting. As such is also the only part that is breaking down significantly. As it wears down this "edge" moves over across the wheel until it reaches the other side. This way some part of the wheel stays the original diameter for quite some time. After that you need to dress the wheel again. Hope that made sense. I have never actually touched a surface grinder my self though, only watched videos, so take it for what it is worth.
it looks funny to me that you only had sparking in the first half of the strokes from both sides all the time. As if the table rocks in its left to right movement and back) shouldn't it spark all the way through the stroke? don't wanna scare you though. cheers.
You might want to revise your dressing technique... When the dresser is tilting towards the wheel rotation and sitting so much above the lowest point of the wheel any accidental movement in X will send your dresser and wheel flying around... What I've been instructed to do is to use either straight mounted diamond or tilted one so that it leans into the rotation and also to dress close to the lowest point of the wheel. Also you will prolong the life of the dressing diamond if you rotate it around after a certain amount of dresses.
I imagine by now you have found out it isn't grinding flat. Beware that running an indicator off the head against the moving table can show no movement but still be way out of flat as since they were related to each other when they were running they will continue to follow each other. Even the Tom Lipton 5 block method will not prove flatness as again it is only showing the relationship of wheel to chuck. I don't know if this machine uses a rack and pinion or what for the movements as I don't recall you showing that detail but it appears the feed is altering the table positions. Your precision level will be very handy in diagnosing what is happenning here and in proving flatness. If your table is now humped in the middle as it would appear moving the level to both ends with table stationary will show it falling off each way. If you level the level ina stationary spot and move the table and see the bubble moving this shows error in the movement in relationship to the spindle, then figuring out if that is from the ways or the feed mechanisim is the next step. I believe feed because ways it should be cutting the same both ways even if it is cutting concave or convex. If you need help sorting it feel free to give me a call.
Great vid, thank you. Also coments here are very helpfull and I find out so much informations. May I ask you guys if you have some tips for surface grinding of titanim grade 5 please ? I have just small manual s.g. without coolant so as the Ti don't absorb heat so much I have some issues with warpage with thin scales or small sheets ( I am talking about piece of Ti aprox 1x4 inch with thickness of 0,08 - 0,2in ) thank you for every tips for stone wheels or techniques. Sure I am making only small steps down about 0,005" and fixing the titanium by super glue or double side tape which works good for bigger pieces. Can't wait to switch my small manual surface grinder for something like this in the future. Thanks Petr
I can see how a carbide tooth wheel could make something perfectly flat from one side to the other but the more you grind with a grinding wheel, the smaller it gets, it's consumable. How can the back side of whatever you're grinding not be higher than the front where you start?
With using these machines, do you ever wear hearing protection or a respirator because of all the dust? Its hard to tell just how loud these machines are through the videos.
Question from a wannabe. You talk of such precision but I'd think that the grinding wheel wear would blow precision out of the water. There is really not a bunch of grinding wheel wear during a grinding job? Just trying to learn! Dave in Cincinnati.
It occurs to me that if you rigged a hood over that yellow shield then added a shop vac conversion on to something like a small oil drum,with the drum partly filled with water,the amount of grinding dust getting in to the rest of the shop would be significantly minimized.High grade abrasive dust is not going to be a good thing anywhere else in the shop.Surely other people in other shops have rigged filters or dust pickups for precisely this reason,no ?
The wheel must wear slightly as it works its way across the surface. It seems to me that this would make a very slight "taper" across the table. Is this a real issue, or is it so slight as to be not measurable?
The table seems like it's rocking . . . The wheel runs off the end without picking up . . . But when it changes direction it picks up on the end of the table it just skipped over!! . . . Would explain why it ground the ends off the table and left the middle . . . it would still pick up the same amount in either direction of it was just wear in the ways . . . Something is definately not right !! What you all think?
Too bad the "machinery pink" paint you used on that vice restore was so off color. It'd be a nice match to the grinding wheel otherwise. That finish looks pretty sweet from here.
Well done, I wish my Mother was still living to see this video. During WWII she operated a surface grinder in a defense plant in Cleveland, Ohio. Dad (a B-24 pilot) always said Mom must have been the one that worked on his windshield wipers...they never worked! I didn't get in on that discussion; I miss them both a lot. Well, now I'm looking forward to seeing the rest of the preparations and testing of that great old machine. Thanks Keith, Greg.
That was the War that changed history for women for sure. The knowledge she had did she use it past WWII into the private sector?
I have a 1946 Brown & Sharpe 2L surface grinder that is mechanically a brother or sister to yours, Keith. Mine is 6x18" and uses 7" grinding wheels. Same type mechanical table drive, same type plain bearing spindle, same ratcheting cross feeds. Amazingly high quality machine, made from the 1920s to the 1950s. Works fine. Watch out for what oil you put in the spindle. My spindle is fitted and set up with 110 millionths clearance between the spindle and the bronze bearing boxes. It requires a special spindle oil, Mobile Velocite #3, ISO 2(!) viscosity. It is about as thin as kerosene. If a thicker oil is run in the plain bearings, it will overheat and lock up. The spindle needs to be set up and cared for by the book. Yours of course might have different clearances and perhaps needs a different oil, but be careful what you use in that spindle! Do not start the spindle unless the constant level oiler has plenty of the correct oil in it.
I'm constantly amazed that you can find the time (and the energy) to work at your job, tend you family and house, work in your shop, record and edit and post these videos, ...
I'm a Landis Tool Co. apprentice! Journeyman 33 years on. Wayne's Bar, PA. 17268.
I didn't know they had bigger (3S) surface grinders. They had a 1S (I guess) hand-powered (ANCIENT) machine in the Vise Dept. I ran.
Being an apprentice at Landis, it's nice to see one of the older machines
I learned how to run a grinder as a machine repairman on the same model. nice machine.
When I was going through training on surface grinders one of the first things they taught us was to angle the diamond *away* from the wheel. Basically it's a safety issue since it *is* possible for the diamond to catch the wheel the way you had it set up. Angling away also puts the wheel in contact with the broad-side of the diamond first and not the tip, so the tip is only doing the fine removal of the abrasive and not the gross amount like you did.
I have seen a grinding wheel explosion (not me) and it will make you *really* respect the power in a spinning wheel.
Had not seen a bed grinder like that since the 70's in the machine shop at the trade school I was attending and then I T.I.G. a band around the thing to channel grease to a grooved exit ground in too . Used it as a griddle top for cooking at the hunting camp. It worked GREAT
Have to admit there is a fair bit of 'shed envy' on this side of the pond. Great to see you getting things 'just so' in your shop :)
Nice to see it run. Thanks Keith.
It is great how your shop is coming along.
This is the kind of video you do that I most enjoy. BTW .. Where is the foundry you built? That's another favorite of mine.
These videos are brilliant, I enjoy them very much....... EXCEPT as a restorer, the OCD in me just wants to strip everything and paint it all.
The table look amazing after the grinding. Have a great weekend
Glad you finally got the Landis running. Hope it's grinding flat for you.
Keith, it would be amazing and beneficial to see you having an apprentice! Keeping with tradition, to watch them learning as your doing and show the rest of us the benefit of teaching. (yes, its not lost on me that your videos are learning aids)
Great video. Just one small comment on your wheel dressing procedure. It looked like you had the diamond mounted beyond the center line which is correct, but the diamond itself was pointing into the wheel which we were always told will push the abrasive back into the wheel instead of allowing it to clean the wheel. We were told that is why the cylindrical grinders always had the diamond mounted just below the center line and facing down ward. Thanks for all of your videos.
LaVern
I am not a machinist but have used one of these in auto mode a few times. On one occasion I was staring at the piece in the bed, rythmically going back and forth for some time. The only time in my life I became hypnotized - instead of the piece moving back and forth, the room did ! - I crumpled to my knees but quickly recovered. So beware.
Keith you get all the good toys!!!
looks like your getting closer to having the home shop up and running
Nice job Keith
That's a good start on the grinder Keith. I hope it is nice flat surface so you can go ahead and get the magchuck mounted and ground in. regards from the UK.
Awesome video.I spent some time this week on a Sharp SG grinding some V-Blocks (taking Machining class at Tech Coll). So this was right up my alley, for the week. Thanks for the videos!
...attending a technical college takes grit and determination!!!
This is quite a good grinder. You probably know to keep the drip oil feeder full and set the delivery rate to about two drops per minute. I recommend that you fix the dust shield at the top of the grinder to prevent abrasive dust from getting to the elevating lead screw when you dress the wheel. Also, when installing the chuck, don't honk down on the downstream attaching bolt as the chuck needs to slide a bit when it changes temperature. If you spot in the bottom of the chuck after grinding the bottom, distortion of the way surface of the longitudinal travel will be avoided.
Great work Keith thanks for sharing
Keith, about the table lifting at each reversal...I'd be interested to see your tenths indicator set up to indicate vertical table movement, then run the reverser through its cycle slowly (by hand?), looking for a momentary lift on each stroke. I bet it looks a little like an EKG. Would be interesting to compare if you can simply push the table each way without using the drive mechanism.
Hello Kieth, great job getting this old machine back in working order. I do have a concern, as I see others noted it too. I fear your table is NOT as flat as you believe. I'm not familiar with this machine but all the grinders I've worked on have a rod end link that attaches to the table, if these are too tight or lacking lubrication they can rock the table. Do check both ends of that link. Can you do a second video checking it for flatness? I'd love to see how much, if any, light can be seen under a straightedge laid across the table.
Another excellent video! Thank you very much for sharing it with the machinist community, Regards!
Great video Keith! I am working on my grinder and your video is timely in helping me out.
I notice that the wheel would grind on the right end of the table the moment the table changed directions. there is the possibility that the table would wobble at that point and you could test that by hand feeding that same place at a slow speed to see if that also engages at that same spot.
I think that even if the table lifts when it changes directions it simply means that when you grind a part that you make the pass go beyond the part you are grinding.
the wheel seems to be cutting only until the middle of the table in both ways. it behaves like it is rocking. I wouldn't be surprised if you find a high spot just in the middle. power feed may be lifting one side at a time. how are those gibs looking? i love to see your machines in motion, keith!
When you do the video on checking how level the surface of the bed is now, you might want to explain how the bed grinding hits the high points. There was some concern over where it was grinding (and not).
Nice grinder Keith.
I was so excited to finally see the surface grinder running that I clicked "Like" before I even watched the video.
The pink stone reminds me - was it the vise you threatened to paint pink? Now you will regret changing your mind. Would have gone great with the stone.
Keith, the ends of the cylinder rod, where it attaches to the table must be a little loose. If they are to tight it will cause the table to lift at one end or the other. I've been repairing machinery for over 40 years, trust me. You have to leave those rod ends a little loose. Thanks for a great vid, Cliff
Cliff, i am a journeyman machine repairman (27 yrs) and i agree with you, i believe he has now ground himself a table with a high center. However Keith is a great asset to those old machines, just needs a little more experience on surface grinders.
Hey out, as you probably know, the rod ends usually have double lock nuts for that very reason. Such as a Gallmeyer / Grand Rapids grinder.
I agree on hydraulic cylinder driven tables. In this case his machine may have a gear driven table . Around 16:05 Keith puts it in gear to cycle the table and you hear the gears engage. I have a Brown & Sharpe No. 13 Universal Tool Grinder with a gear driven table. When I got it the rack under the table had grease hardened on the right side of table and it lifted the table with full right travel.
The only time I ever use a surface grinder was at work. We would use it to sharpen Tree Chipper Blades. They had to done in sets.
So...how long before you're not happy with it's looks and you tear it down and re-paint it. :) Glad you're getting to live your dream Keith!
I bet you have either coolant or powerful dust extraction on that grinder by now. When I set my old G&L grinder up, I ground my first job dry and it took me weeks to get the shop cleaned up!
Thanks for (another) great video Keith. I have a question though. I noticed that the grinding wheel was sparking only when entering the bed and not when exiting. Surely it should have sparked both entering and exiting? I know absolutely nothing about surface grinders but this would indicate to me that the feed mechanism is 'lifting' the table end as it pushes it forward. i.e. off the ways. If this is indeed so the bed would be convex so I hope your check with the straight edge and dial indicators proved otherwise.
Watching your machine shop videos makes me think I made a wrong choice as to my career. I went the IT route and not the millwright route like my grandfather. I had the choice and was so sure of myself back then. Ah well, I have retired now and keep myself busy in my wood shop, my eldest brother has the metal workshop as he is a marine engineer but he lives 800 miles from me. :P
Once again thanks for all the interesting videos, much appreciated by many of us.
The Okamoto grinder I learned on had different feed pattern options. It could be set to step over the Y-axis every time it reversed the X-axis direction, or only step over every *other* time it reversed. Basically, it amounted to a cutting pass going left, and a spring (spark out) pass going right.
Is it possible that machine has something similar?
Hello Keith,
Great video and nice to see a new machine working and I never have seen such a grinder machine. I only know those simple grinders at the bench but not an machine like that, and I am curious about to see the first job on this machine.
Many greetings from Roel !
That auto step feature sure is nice, it's great to start a pass and let it fly, will it stop the step over at end of cycle automatically?
Very informative video thanks for sharing.
Hi Keith,
I noticed there is a pressure gauge on the head above the spindle. It stayed on zero the whole time the machine was operating. Just curious what it's function is? I thought it might be oil pressure for the spindle bearing, but you explained the lubrication for that bearing is via the drip oiler, so I'm at a loss to understand what that gauge is for.
Looks like a really well made machine.
Bill you may be correct about the pressure lube on the spindle, the drip oiler may be for the down feed mechanism? Just guessing but makes sense .
I want this for hand planes.
Have you seen Paul Seller's videos on hand planes? Do they need to be that flat?
Agreed. The whole "lapping to within a thousandth" thing is a bit much. I still want it though, haha.
I just watched your hand crank grinder video. I think you were really harsh on your drill press, puttting a bolt in the chuck and applying side-loads to the spindle. Are you aware of this and have decided you never wanna do accurate work with the machine in question?
Haha, oh I have ideas! I definitely don't do the precision work Keith does!
I am aware. The drill press is very cheap and I am not worried about that level of accuracy. Would love a mill though one day.
lol your post notification woke me and now I can't go back to sleep.......its 5:54 ahhhhhh
keith looking good.
You are probably done checking already, but one of those straight edges of mine that you have might work good to check this.
Looks like a nice machine!!
Keith, At 8:11 I see two screws (flat slot) on the table. What are they for?
Eric
thats awesome ...... love to find one.
Hi Keith, Love to see these old machines brought back to life. I have an Abrasive 3B model just like yours, only without the hardened ways. I have a question of what weight oil you are using in the spindle and the gearbox/saddle and do you fill the saddle up to the top of the oil cap? I am using a light machine oil mixed with mineral oil for the spindle to get it thin and I use 30 wt for the gearbox and saddle. I acquired this grinder only a couple years ago and I'm just getting into surface grinding. Even with my amateur skills this machine makes beautiful mirror finishes. Keep up the great work.
Hi Keith,
very interesting video. I was a bit concerned that the wheel seemed to only be cutting while heading towards the middle of the bed - never on the second half of the stroke, going either way. It would make me fear that the grinder was cutting a "bow" into the bed, maybe if it is tilting up when being fed?
Anyway, I hope it's not, and I look forward to seeing how you inspect it!
It seemed that the table lifted at the change of direction.
Why is it only grinding the left side when going to the right and grinding the right side when going to the left ? If the course was flat, shouldn't it grind the whole surface on each pass ?
Tool deflection.
I can imagine that's what's going through Keiths mind as he was making this video. That's why he expressed concern at the end but in a controlled diplomatic way. I hope there's no runout and if there is it's something he's able to deal with. He's spend a lot of time getting and setting this machine up, it would be a shame if it's warped.
Those last couple of light passes should have had almost no tool pressure, thus no deflection, and they ground that way too.
I think this indicates the table is rocking side to side. Too much backlash in the feed and ways. The ways on the table need to be tightened a little. This would be why the ends cleaned up before the center. My bet would be the table was pretty close to flat, but the ways have worn. The evidence will be if the table is now hump backed after grinding, it was rocking.
Notso Fresh thanks for the explanation, i saw that as well. and was wondering the same thing.
@keith rucker, glad to see the machine coming together, ive been wondering about it since the scraping vid.
i was gona say the same
Hi Kieth great video as usual. I was just wondering, it seemed as though the wheel only cut half way along each pass, at least I could not see any sparks after the mid point. This applied to both directions. Forgive me if this a dumb question as I'm not familiar with surface grinders. Thanks for the entertaining videos Rod
Well, this is a used machine, no telling what the last owner/operator had done with it....and the table might be 'low' in the center due to things being set there and pushed around.....even the machine not being level can cause a lot of issues....just my opinion here of curse....
No dumb questions......I'm no expert on these grinders either....but I do understand the mechanics.....
Yeah I understand that, but it seemed to continue even on the last few passes when it was cleaning up the low spots. Thanks for the reply Rod
THANK YOU...for sharing.
Damn, came out looking great! Good video.
I wonder if the wheel degradation made the front or back lower as went across. That sure is a big table. I know Stan encounter that on his chuck which is much smaller. It will be interesting to see the results! Thanks Keith.
The finish between a fast traverse speed and a slow one may look the same but the slow one will cause way more heat to be put into the part which is the mortal enemy of surface and cylindrical grinding.
Keith...Big Fan...Not a machinist, but an Electrical Engineer, so I'm curious. I noticed that when you were taking the 0.5 thousands cut...when the table was traveling from right to left, there were sparks when the grinder first engaged the surface, but the sparks diminished until they seemed to stop when the table got to near the mid point of travel...the table continued to move, and no further sparks appeared ... then when the table reversed itself, and began traveling left to right, sparks appeared when the grinder first engaged the right edge of the table, and the same thing seemed to happen...sparks over the first half of the travel, but none at the end. It is almost as if the table end that is being drawn toward the grinder is slightly higher than the trailing end...could that be happening, or is that behavior normal...? (almost as if there is a worm gear mounted to a point in the center of the table, and the surface of the ways is giving some friction, and the worm gear is distorting or lifting up the side of the table that it is driving forward...could that possibly be?) You would think that if there are sparks being generated when the wheel first engages an end of the table, there should have been some when that same end of the table was the finishing end...
Keep up the great work. I'm learning a lot, and I know there are many more like me who admire and appreciate what you guys are doing. I see that KaNaRD1233 hours ago asked the same question...sorry for this being a repeat...really love the work.
Thank you. What is the grit of the pink wheel? Can you discus your options using different grit sizes and types of wheels?
I too am very concerned by the interrupted cutting. I run a Brown and Sharp grinder at work and have never experienced anything like that. It always cut full length in both directions. I also think that the clamping blocks should be ground. They were obviously ground when the machine was first assembled. Try swapping the left and right stops and I would guess you can pick up the extra 4 inches of travel needed to grind the entire surface.
If the table is too worn or warped to fix by grinding, can you still get a replacement, or do you make one yoursel?
Perhaps because never took a shop class in school, fascinated by the things you do in your videos. Thank you for making them.
You & Mr. Pete (Tubalcane) provide a real education on classic industrial tech, curjous if you two know each other?
Just a quick comment here Keith. You and most others know about the positioning of the dressing diamond, but a complete novice may not know how to set the diamond past the lowest part of the wheel to avoid a catastrophic dig-in. Perhaps a quick reminder may be of benefit. Great video though, as always.
I bet it amazing about having full machine shop at your house can go anytime you want
Keth are you going to put some guarding at the top to keep grinding grit and dust out of the up/down feed screw? Nice video!
Good job. Question for You. Do You have a coolant supply on the machine?
Very cool. Is that a Sellers Grinder there next to it, behind you in the video? I would love to see a feature on that too. I have a Sellers with so many attachments, and frankly I don't know what they all do.
Great show.... I have a non-machinist question, though: How does the machine (or operator) compensate for wear of the grinding wheel?
nice job, to get the best finish, you shouldn't run a lower table speed,, because there is more heat building up and more likely to distort the table
according to the manual of my jung surface grinder it´s better to make smaller steps across
but i´m like you just starting and surface grinding is fun. makes things not only precise but also very pretty
great job man , I think it it's Looking like yur well with in flat there .. Thumbs up Keith !
I have a general question about surface grinders. Doesn't backlash have to be considered when moving the wheel down by a small amount, say a tenth of a thousandth? I can see that backlash wouldn't be an issue when raising the wheel (due to gravity). But when going down by a tiny amount, isn't it possible for the friction of the vertical ways to prevent wheel movement until the backlash is taken up? Or is the head assembly (motor, wheel, etc.) so heavy that gravity will always pull the head down regardless of backlash?
Hi, don't know how it runs on the bigger machines like this but I have small manual Erfurt surface grinder and this backlash effect is higly visible here. I have simple DRO out of digital caliper so every time I am going down with spindle , I am going sligtly deeper than I want and turn the spindle back-upper where I wanna to grind every pass. Bit annoying, but after few tryes I made it automatically and gives me certainty I am where wanna to be, haha...hope it helps.
Petr
Hi Keith,
What does the bottom of your magnet look like? Is it as bad as the table top before you ground it? What kind of grinding experience do you have?
Steve
How do you compensate for wear on the wheel during a grinding session?
I am assuming you think about wear on the diameter of the wheel, with regards to dimension and flatness of the finished part.
What he is doing here is stepping over only a fraction of the width of the wheel at a time. This means only the leading edge (side) of the wheel is actually doing any cutting. As such is also the only part that is breaking down significantly. As it wears down this "edge" moves over across the wheel until it reaches the other side. This way some part of the wheel stays the original diameter for quite some time. After that you need to dress the wheel again.
Hope that made sense. I have never actually touched a surface grinder my self though, only watched videos, so take it for what it is worth.
neistridlar OK, that does make sense. Thanks...
it looks funny to me that you only had sparking in the first half of the strokes from both sides all the time. As if the table rocks in its left to right movement and back) shouldn't it spark all the way through the stroke? don't wanna scare you though. cheers.
You might want to revise your dressing technique... When the dresser is tilting towards the wheel rotation and sitting so much above the lowest point of the wheel any accidental movement in X will send your dresser and wheel flying around...
What I've been instructed to do is to use either straight mounted diamond or tilted one so that it leans into the rotation and also to dress close to the lowest point of the wheel. Also you will prolong the life of the dressing diamond if you rotate it around after a certain amount of dresses.
I imagine by now you have found out it isn't grinding flat. Beware that running an indicator off the head against the moving table can show no movement but still be way out of flat as since they were related to each other when they were running they will continue to follow each other. Even the Tom Lipton 5 block method will not prove flatness as again it is only showing the relationship of wheel to chuck. I don't know if this machine uses a rack and pinion or what for the movements as I don't recall you showing that detail but it appears the feed is altering the table positions. Your precision level will be very handy in diagnosing what is happenning here and in proving flatness. If your table is now humped in the middle as it would appear moving the level to both ends with table stationary will show it falling off each way. If you level the level ina stationary spot and move the table and see the bubble moving this shows error in the movement in relationship to the spindle, then figuring out if that is from the ways or the feed mechanisim is the next step. I believe feed because ways it should be cutting the same both ways even if it is cutting concave or convex. If you need help sorting it feel free to give me a call.
I agree, The auto change of Direction mechanism seems to be lifting the Table, but I could be wrong.
Dont turn the spindle off after you dress the wheel. Once you start it up again, it can jolt the wheel on the hub and throw it off of center.
Great vid, thank you.
Also coments here are very helpfull and I find out so much informations. May I ask you guys if you have some tips for surface grinding of titanim grade 5 please ? I have just small manual s.g. without coolant so as the Ti don't absorb heat so much I have some issues with warpage with thin scales or small sheets ( I am talking about piece of Ti aprox 1x4 inch with thickness of 0,08 - 0,2in ) thank you for every tips for stone wheels or techniques. Sure I am making only small steps down about 0,005" and fixing the titanium by super glue or double side tape which works good for bigger pieces.
Can't wait to switch my small manual surface grinder for something like this in the future.
Thanks
Petr
I am afraid that I can't help you there. Maybe somebody else will chime in.
Sure, thats why I asked there, discusion seems to be more than informative here.
Keep up the good work there ! I
I can see how a carbide tooth wheel could make something perfectly flat from one side to the other but the more you grind with a grinding wheel, the smaller it gets, it's consumable. How can the back side of whatever you're grinding not be higher than the front where you start?
Hey Keith, as the wheel wears, isn't it becoming less accurate? I mean, doesn't it actually grind a angle in a single straight pass?
It will be interesting to see how flat it really is.
What's the gauge just above the grind wheel??
Will you use coolant? Your electric cabinet is open.
With using these machines, do you ever wear hearing protection or a respirator because of all the dust? Its hard to tell just how loud these machines are through the videos.
Are you going to grind the bottom of the mag chuck.
Pardon such a noob question, but how does it account for the wear of the grinding wheel?
Question from a wannabe. You talk of such precision but I'd think that the grinding wheel wear would blow precision out of the water. There is really not a bunch of grinding wheel wear during a grinding job? Just trying to learn! Dave in Cincinnati.
It occurs to me that if you rigged a hood over that yellow shield then added a shop vac conversion on to something like a small oil drum,with the drum partly filled with water,the amount of grinding dust getting in to the rest of the shop would be significantly minimized.High grade abrasive dust is not going to be a good thing anywhere else in the shop.Surely other people in other shops have rigged filters or dust pickups for precisely this reason,no ?
Never ever turn the grinder off after you dress your wheel .Thats the number 1 rule in grinding.
are you going to try Tom's 5 button compilation?
The wheel must wear slightly as it works its way across the surface. It seems to me that this would make a very slight "taper" across the table. Is this a real issue, or is it so slight as to be not measurable?
One quick question, did the bed get hot ?
awesome!!!!!
Does this grinder have provisions for water cooling?
Need to up your cross feed, at least half the wheel with with each reversal of the table.
The table seems like it's rocking . . . The wheel runs off the end without picking up . . . But when it changes direction it picks up on the end of the table it just skipped over!! . . . Would explain why it ground the ends off the table and left the middle . . . it would still pick up the same amount in either direction of it was just wear in the ways . . . Something is definately not right !! What you all think?
Is there some reason that you did not use coolant?
Just for answer:the cilindres is ok?why when the table change way the shape no remove material?better check a table flatness with one level
How do you account for stone wear on something like that? Or is it so miniscule that it is not a problem? Not a machinist, excuse my ignorance. :-)
Too bad the "machinery pink" paint you used on that vice restore was so off color. It'd be a nice match to the grinding wheel otherwise. That finish looks pretty sweet from here.
10:47 This is a pink wheel. No way!