Grinding a Custom Threading Tool on the Surface Grinder
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 3 ต.ค. 2024
- I have a job that will require cutting some Modified 10 degree Square Threads on the lathe and needed a special threading tool to do the job. I used a blank of HSS to grind one on my Landis surface grinder using a compound sine plate to grind the compound angles. We will go over how to set up for this job, including how to make the calculations to grind angles on a sine plate or sine bar.
Original Video showing how I made the nut for this job: Machining a New Bronze Cross Feed Nut for a 1909 F. E. Reed Lathe - • Machining a New Bronze...
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Repair a tool to make a tool to make a tool to make a part that goes on a tool, which makes other tools and parts. What a circle of life!
That's where the entire world around us came from. Thousands of years of it.
Sizukun1 and we all love doing it, right? Cschwad
Sizukun1
But first came the idea or dream and everything developed from that - without these we would still be living in trees !
Don't forget, the lathe is the one machine tool that can build 99% of itself, short only of the castings...
@@gilbertodiaz-castro626 that means it can never build itself.
This made my day!
I rarely use the calculator on the phone, and I totally didn't know about the extra functions when you turn it around.
Thank you so much for telling this!
Also, you might know, but if you swipe left on the Compass you get the level/angle finder. I use it in carpentry for some quick 'no bozo' checks.
Keith, I really enjoyed this video. I'm not a machinist and had never seen the sine plate used for that process. Learn something everyday on TH-cam. Thanks R.
Great video, especially for those of us who have never done such a thing. Keep it up, I love watching your channel. Dave
Keith, that is very generous of you to do that for a viewer. When you get that done, I think you have a viewer in Ky. who has a little welding for you to do.
Not much just a little bit,
Rollie
I would be more than happy to help my friend in KY out, but I would be brazing it back together. I just have not had a lot of luck with stick welding cast iron. But, I think that Brian will be fine when it is all said and done.
I work in machining medical devices. Spinal devises designers in particular love to use custom ACME and square threads, so I am constantly designing custom thread tools. Thank god for Wire EDM. Love your videos, they are very informative.
That brought back some memories from 8th grade metal shop. I hated math, but the trig memory aid, "remember the Indian Chief SohCahToa" has stuck with me for those many decades. See you at the Bar-Z. Jon
Thank you for the great explanation of the sine plate and how to use it! Your explanations of all the things that must be taken into account when performing the different tasks are the best!!!
Yes, the human hand is very sensitive to minute discrepancies on a surface. There was a documentary many years ago about a medical study of this. The conclusion was that a human was actually able to detect deviations of 1/100 of a mm (4/1000 inch).
Also thank you for showing me something I had no idea that it existed, the sine-plate. You are now on my subscription list.
loved this video, just the right balance of teaching and demonstration
I'm glad I'm not the only one that cleans granite inspection plates with window cleaner.
Keith, with the surface plate you'll run into the same issue that you encounter when cleaning windows. Paper towels are made with sizing, or as it's commonly known, starch to hold the wood fiber together. The layer of starch left on your surface plate from the paper towels will have minor imperfections in it that would be as bad or worse than the dust you're cleaning off. A better method would be to use the same thing that works so well on glass, washed and tumble dried .microfiber towels. It would probably also be a good investment to purchase a cheapie air-brush compressor to use to blow off the surface plate afterward with oil-free, dry air.
You realize I will have nightmares about HS math tonight! Why is it so simple now? Great educational video, Prof. Rucker!
Rich
I was one of those strange kids who actually liked word problems. Much better to be using math to solve a real world problem rather than just a bunch of numbers on a piece of paper. However, I can remember back in 9th grade when my algebra teacher gave us a word problem that required calculating how much barbed wire a farmer would need to by to fence in a pasture. Having put up a lot of fence by even then, I gave the teacher the answer she was looking for as well as the "correct" answer that took into account the extra wire needed for cross hatching corner posts, etc. She gave me extra credit!
Keith this is a fantastic vid...i have never seen that done before.. the math, the making, then to see it fit in the tap was just cool to see... thanks
Awesome information on the Sine Plate usage. My grandfather was a tool maker for General Motors way back...I have alot of his tools, but my uncle got his Sine Plate. Then again, I had no idea back then what it was used for. LOL...Nice Video Keith!!!
You have that Landis set up so nicely now. Must be a delight to have such a large, yet precise tool at your disposal. Best wishes.
Thought of you yesterday as I drove by both Tiffin and Tipton Iowa.
There are lots of towns named Tiffin and Tipton, but I am pretty sure that we are the only "Tifton"!
Great work Keith
Excellent video on the use and setup of the compound sine plate.
great video as always. keep it up bud. you often remind me of my good teachers past. thank ya
All looks good, that is the best way to go, you know your cutter is spot on!!....🍁
Keith, thanks for the video! I learned how to work the gauge blocks, finally, and how to use a compound sine plate with a custom grind. Thanks again!
Professor Rucker at his best.
Keith it looks like the tool fits well, nice job. In your calculations for the angles for the compound sine plate I think you may have made a mistake by not taking into account the compound angle. In your case, the 5° angle is small and the error introduced is also small, but for larger angles this will not be the case. Suburban tool also has a compound sine plate calculator on their website. Using your numbers the gauge stacks should be 0.435779 for the 5° and 1.289499 for the 15°. Again the error is small for both in this case.
Absolutely right, although small in this case it should not be ignored in the teaching of compound angles.
This is simply known as cosine error.
Bill, I have to give you credit that you are correct. However, the only angle that was really important was the 5 degree angle - and that stack is the same for both a single angle as well as a compound angle: 0.4358 (rounding to the nearest tenth, which is all that my gauge blocks will go down to). Because h 15 degree back angle is just clearance and not critical, it really does not matter in this situation. But, you are technically correct.
Not trying to nit pick, I've been burned by making this mistake that's why I brought it up. It absolutely would not matter for your tool bit.
Yes I cut and pasted from the Suburban Precision website, should be 0.4358 and 1.2895, and yes it would not matter for the tool bit Keith ground.
Perfect job on that threading tool Keith .. Can't wait to see it in action .. Thumbs up !
Always learn something new! Thanks
This was a wonderful video. This was the first time that I ever saw a compound sine plate set up and used. You made it look so simple! Thanks so much for posting this one! (I've been looking forward to seeing this tool being made! It was well worth the wait!)
Great video! I can wait to see that that 10° left handed cross slide to born!
great video felt like I was back in shop class lol. very informative
Excellent job as usual.
I was puzzled at first why you were going to such lengths to make such a simple tool. I was thinking to myself that I had cut Acme threads many times and I had only ground the tool on the bench grinder. Right at the end you answered my question. You said that you did not have a standard or gauge to grind the tool against. That makes sense! I had a gauge when I made my tools. Likely no one makes such an archaic thread form gauge. Perhaps at one time those were available, but good luck finding one.
All the best!
Mike
Love that compound sine plate.
Those blankety-blank gnats are bad here in Texas right now, too. Interesting to see a way of making a precise tool bit though. TY for the good video.
Interesting topic, well presented and narrated!
And that folks is why custom machining is so expensive, it’s very time consuming. Hey Keith, you sound just like my high school trigonometry teacher........I couldn’t understand a word he was saying either😂
Great video. Congrats on not cursing the whole video with that swarm of gnats swarming you the entire time. I would have lost my shit and broke out a weed torch haha.
Mosquito dunks kill fungus gnat larvae.
What a kick in the gut, build such a beautiful shop and have the georgia insect community move right in. Keith does have some patience...
I have never seen a square thread. Can one even find accurate square thread gauges? Nice work Keith.
Thumbs Up for the white board usage!
Excellent video I’ve been trying to figure out how to calculate the sin plates recently and it wasn’t working out very well thanks to your video I now know how to figure it out Thanks
Keith, I love the use of the compound and the surface grinder.....thank you for a revision of the math. I have the Suburban magnetic, but not the compound. Guess I need to do some more shopping. -Tom Eyssen
Hi Keith, since your using an i-phone I thought I would point you to an app i use often, it's called "Gage Stacker". You enter our desired height to 4 places (tenths) and it tells you which blocks you use to get there . . . .very handy and quick
BTW, love your thoughtful explanations, great work
John - Long time subscriber
Thanks for the video, I've wanted a surface grinder, but could not find the need for one till now. Thanks again, hope to see you at the Bar Z in a couple of weeks, JB.
Thanks for the lessons Keith. Very good.
Thanks for the video. I especially appreciated the gauge block demo. Would not have thought you should do it subtractively. Gosh, old-time machinists had neither ccalculators nor cell phones!
We had slide rules. Boy now that was something to learn! (Or never learn)
Thank you Keith! I learned a lot.
Excellent video!
This is really cool, thanks for sharing!
As always , nice to see.
If You don't have SINE function?
For small angles like 10°, calculate 10*PI/180 = 0,1745. Thats about 0.5% error.
Smaller angel givs smaller error.
Hugely interesting. Thank you for sharing this Keith.
I really like the white board talk. Seems strange grinding a tiny tool on such a big grinder :)
Very nicely done Keith and very informative thank you.
One can barely hear that disturbingly happy bird outside your shop.
Therefore, your new mike must be working very well.
Nice video. Thank you.
excellent subject lesson on tool and dye making!
Awesome video, saw a few new things.
Very nice job Keith :)
Great video Keith!
That is the first time anyone has shown me how to apply that math. Thank you so much it only took 74 years of my life to understand. LoL
That is the problem that I have with the way math is taught in school - they teach you how to do it but never tell you why you need to know it or how it is applied. I am not math genius, but I use it every day in so many ways.
I am working in a tool shop at Cochin,(India ), here we are grinding, 0.500mm slots, 0.150mm radius both male and female in 0.005mm tolerance,using Jung grinding machine with optidresser and noritake grinding wheels
Excellent video ....
Surface grinder hype! 😁
Glad your are using the cutter instead of me I would break it first time.
THANK YOU...for sharing.
You should look into getting a stereo zoom microscope for doing checks like you did for comparing the threading tool to the tap. I have one in my shop and use it all the time to look at wear on bits and part fit ups. If you do get one be sure to get one with a camera mount so you can share what you see.
Keith,
Great video! You make complex things seem so simple. I guess they are when you know what you are doing? BTW, as they used to ask back in the 60s, "What's your "sine"? (lol) In response, when folks asked what sign I was born under, I'd tell them "Hospital"!
Have a good one!
Dave
Could you take a piece of round and chuck it in the lathe after you thread the shaft and run some threads on it so you could have a standard for future use? I know, you may never need it but if someone else needed it you could saw off a little bit and mail it to them. Just a thought; oh, I did pay attention in Trig class but at 70 yrs. old, it flew the coop. Thanks for the memories and the great video, Greg.
that's a good idea.
I certainly enjoy watching the set up and the calculations for precise tooling. ps you really need some bug spray, are those chiggers?
Those are gnats. If you live here long, you just learn to ignore them (for the most part).
Thanks Keith, very informative video.
very informative and impressive
as an apprentice starting 1951, i hand ground all my threading tools
If you use a sine plate a lot it would be useful to write a spread sheet to calculate the stack for the most common angles and build a table for them.
You need to get one of those overhead projectors, the ones that put use asleep in math class!
ahhhh... Now I understand where that grinder can be useful. I could not figure out why anyone would want such a thing when a mill would be more accurate but for making custom cutters it's brilliant.
cant mill hardend steels, you can pre mill them before hardening, but the heat process will distort them slightly , needing grinding and for tool bits , they are already too hard to mill
"mill would be more accurate", a jest perhaps? Milling machines are crude monsters when compared to surface grinders. Think axe compared to a scalpel.
Its physically impossible to have accuracy similar to a mill with a sacrificial ablative cutting surface such as a grinding wheel over large areas. As the wheel diameter decreases through use, your surfaces will become more and more out of spec.
Could that be why you "spark out"?
Are you sure you meant to use "ablative" and not "abrasive", which would sound more logical in your sentence?
You only have to look at the feed dials, grinders are often an order of magnitude finer than mills. Or are you not talking about manual machines, but CNC.
Oh? cutting tools don't wear?
Not only have things come up, but a large tree has come down.
.... and not to mention a math lesson, thanks Keith.
I really enjoyed this video Keith. You mentioned Guage blocks don't l go below .100". I don't know of you meant your set or not, but I have a Starrett/Webber set that has a .050" block in it.
Actually, I think my set has a 0.050" block as well.
ah... fantastic video! thank you!!
Looking at this setup, it seems that the clearance angle is going to confound the thread flank angle. In other words, the 5 degree is going to have to be increased slightly to make up for the clearance angle. You could make the correct angle with either a formula (the ratio of two trig functions) or sketch the correct angle by using an Autocad sketch.
A related problem I give my high school kids: You need to cut a 15 degree edge on the long side of a long part on the Bridgeport, but the part is so long you have to swivel the ramp at 45 degrees to reach the end of the part. So now you don't have 15 degrees anymore looking at the end of the part. It turns out you need to set the head tilt about 21 degrees so that it becomes 15 when the ram is swiveled 45. We work this out with trig and algebra, and then develop an Excell spreadsheet to account for the confounding angles.
nice one Keith! just catching up on videos :)
Very nice job, Keith. Was that flies or blood suckers I heard in the sound. Would one need to heat treat a cutter like that? Thanks again, Greg
Those are just pesky gnats. Harmless, unless you hurt yourself trying to get away from them. Since the cutter was HSS, no need to heat treat in this case. I was grinding it in the hardened state.
15:22 I don't believe oil on the gauge blocks is what causes them to "stick" together, as it works with ceramic gauge blocks without any oil... it's the van der Waals force that's doing it.
Wonder how good a piece of claybar would clean a surface plate
I think Alfred Hitchcock said it: "If you show a telephone in Act I, it had better ring by Act III."
You can't show a Triumph™ box (at the very end of the video) without saying something about what came in it.
"Remove everything that has no relevance to the story. If you say in the first chapter that there is a rifle hanging on the wall, in the second or third chapter it absolutely must go off. If it's not going to be fired, it shouldn't be hanging there." Anton Chekhov
I think you're referring to the "Chekhov's Gun" principle, established long before Hitchcock.
+Scott Anderson - Wow. I've been "quoting" (apparently I haven't been) Hitchcock on this for over 50 years. A quick google finds no reference to it whatsoever. (I've referenced it in a number of online forums, so that is surprising.)
Chekhov's Gun has it's own Wikipedia entry, although he said it several times in slightly different forms. Thanks for setting me straight on this.
Sweet! Hey Keith, as always, LOVE YOUR WORK! I have a Walker Turner 1165 table saw with a worn worm gear blade height screw. I had it apart for servicing but failed to take a photo, (sheeesh). It needs the same treatment your'e doing here except on a spiral. It is serviceable but a bit sloppy with excess backlash. Once set the blade height is stable so I will let it go for now. But, your repair on this worm gear makes me lust for your tooling!
@3:53 you say that by cutting an Acme thread you are cutting on the side. Yes but it still has a large flat area on the thread root which is a direct forward cut almost the same as a square thread.
Never underestimate finger feel when checking something. Remember the Swedes did a study posted to Science Daily a few years ago(I found the article again by googling "feel nanometer with your finger").
Some people could detect a wrinkle a mere 13 nanometers high across a nano-scale flat surface. How wild is that? A human hair is 75 microns, which is 75,000 nanometers, we're talking 13nm! Cool to think about how small that is and that we can feel it through our fingertip, eh?
That popped into my head during the windex intro and just wanted to share it. Take care all.
Shouldn't the height blocks go exactly at the 5" point to give you the precise angle you need? By sliding the blocks at 4.5 inches or so your angle will increase, or so it seems. Measure it sometime and see.
When you need a tool that doesn't exist anymore, you're out of luck. Unless you're Keith. Then you go to your garage and MAKE it.
As is the case when you are working on so many kinds of "vintage machinery"....
Hi Keith, curious why you were feeding the work into the wheel the hungry way (basically climb cutting)?
Don't understand why you need the surface plate. The angle's from the gauge blocks are set inside the sine plate, and then mounted on the grinder. What am I missing? Thanks I got the rest of it and thinks it's awesome. Thanks for all you do.
My thoughts exactly :D
Nice video tough!
I never saw a compound sine plate, let even a sine plate.
I envisioned something much more complicated whenever I heard the name sine plate.
Dave B he probably saw suburban tools video on sine plates.
they use the surface plate and an indicator to check the angle is correct, doesn't look like he did that though. seems like using a compound sine plate is something he rarely does or has never done.
no offense if u see this comment Keith, but I noticed a pretty large amount of errors in this video. not sure if you just were ball parking it or what.
but when using a surface plate always slide things on from the corner, never set them on the center, use lint free cloth to clean surface plate, lint free cloth and light oil to clean gauge blocks before ringing together, and slide the blocks together in an x before twisting to ring together instead of sliding back and forth. also there's some cosine error in the calculations.
also a tenths indicator on the surface plate would have been a more accurate check than the calipers. or use a mic. and avoiding touching the polished surface of the gauge blocks helps keep the stack accurate
It is not necessary to do this on the surface plate, but I like to keep the bottom of the sine plate on a flat surface to keep it clean.
you are right in your thinking, it was only used as working surface and not necessary.
keith interesting video.
Great Video Keith!! :-)
Thanks for sharing Keith. I love to see surface grinder work like this.
Any experience using a univise for grinding toolbits?
Dan
I know some people will be turned off by the math, but I really enjoyed it. Simple trig! Oscar Had A Heap Of Apples, So Charlie Thought (o/h = sin, a/h = cos, o/a = tan). There is a Navy saying, but cannot put that here! I am curious as to why you started with the smallest gage block first. I will re-watch the video to better understand.
im guessing smaller blocks include the smaller increments, larger ones are more likely in larger thou increments
I was taught, "remember Indian Chief SohCahToa." It has stuck with me since 8th grade, so many decades ago.
You start with the last place in the number you are making a stack for. The tenths gauge blocks are all 0.1001 through 0.1009 so if the stack needed to be 0.3125, you would start with the 0.1005 block and then go the 0.112 block and then put in the last one which would be a 0.100 block. It is just easier to move from right to left.
The five inches is between the pins. Did the stacks take into account half the width of the top pin, so that the angle is correct?
Both sides of the sine plate rotate on round pins - so they are always the same distance apart no matter what the angle is.
Wouldn't micro fiber cloths work much better?
I would have lost it with all those bugs!
Don't visit South Georgia in the summer time then. Gnats are everywhere!
Hi Keith, where does the 15 degree come from? Very interesting, mvh sverre eriksen , Trondheim, Norway,
Keith, when you're done using this tool, do you mark it so you know what angle it was cut at or do you throw it in a box with the rest of your cutters? This was a good video, there was a lot of thinking to make that tool! Thanks for the lesson.
Quite honestly, it will probably just get thrown in with the rest of my cutters. I doubt I will ever need this grind again, but if I do, I should remember that I have it and can probably find it again.
By the way...great job.
would like the decimal chart info again,the email address says it wasn't good, thanks,great video
Paul, send me an email and I will send you the address again.