Anyone else notice that while Gertrude asked questions there was no compultion static? I wonder if she ever actually does use eye powers or if she is avoiding it on purpose.
Gerry said she didn't like using it. Didn't like Knowing Things and didn't like using Compulsion. He also said in his episode that, in order to feed the Eye, she read statements out loud, but without recording them necessarily. So she was feeding it just enough so it wouldn't feed on her.
“i don’t see a way we can meaningfully progress this conversation while you’re under the impression that your threats mean anything to me.” dude gertrude was such a badass
I wouldn't be too impressed. The Lightless Flame was rather neutered at that point, and it's clear they're even less capable than the Buried versus someone who knows how to fight back. They're bullies who cant take competition.
Jon: I really miss having people who know their way around computers better than I do. Me, thinking of Martin offering to show Peter how to use a computer: Why oh why do you tease me with subtleties, now I'm sad.
But I don't get why??? Is it because of something Jon had *done* or is it because... Actually I don't know why else she would be mad at him. I think she knows everything doesn't she? So I mean she knows that he doesn't really have a choice in the matter
@@rai4119 Being an avatar of The End, she can probably feel his awakening and the fact that he chose to sacrifice his personhood to live. I don't think she's mad at him necessarily, more a concerned "this ain't right, I can't associate with you."
Damn Jon sounds so sad and broken...... he's just trying to do his friends right and respect their foundries as much as he possibly can with his eye power randomly becoming a dickhole sometimes. You can hear the fear in their voices... and poor jon... i feel like hes just days away from his poor human heart truely breaking.
Is it too much to ask for Jon to have a fully functioning relationship with just ONE person? Also, don't mind me just casually feeding the term 'harmless little old lady' into a garbage disposal
.......... So when jon inevitably goes off the deep end i'm gonna be in full support of him tbh... y'all really continue to do him dirty like this and pretend you have the moral high ground :[
Yeah I really don't know what anyone expects. He's trying so hard to help and hold on to his humanity and they just keep berating him like he's the worst of the worst. I understand being wary of all this but man, isn't it hard to be this mean to someone who isn't doing it first?
Do y'all remember that guy who found that creepy circle in the woods, the one that was connected to Gertrude? I'm wondering if that's the circle she was talking about because after he broke it, his house burst into flames and lost his wife to that, then he set himself on fire to save his son. I can't remember the episode name but I'm sure they're connected.
@@AbstractQueer Girl Boss is a TV series based on a book about a female CEO. The book might actually have been an autobiography, but I've only heard about it second hand and was never interested. Anyway. I've heard it compared to both Dexter and Breaking Bad. The main character is independent and vicious about acquiring and maintaining power, power corrupts, there's drama and manipulation and betrayal, etc, etc.
I really like how Arthur half way through the statement decided to start ranting. You want to hear my story ? Fine then you have listen to my ranting about my coworkers too
It's always really interesting seeing how Gertrude feeds The Eye. "Why don't you try to leave and find out?" is very a much a "Am I being watched? Was I being watched? Did someone set something up while I wasn't looking? What do they know that I don't?" kind of fear to instill in someone. I wonder if she ever admitted that kind of thing to herself.
Oh man I never thought about that side of it, not just as a threat to toy with him but inspiring a paranoia that’s food for these things. Thanks for pointing that out!
Thus was the life of Agnes Montague. Until now, all of the avatars gain their avatar status by being "chosen" as adults. Being *born* with such power is just unthinkable, such that... I believe Agnes never *truly* became an avatar. Being an avatar of fear entails more than just having powers, its about being a *physical manifestation* of the fear you represent. By being born with such power, Agnes never got to know the Desolation, and a child's innocence is pretty hard to corrupt into a burning rage, especially with no-one who is willing to be a real (dysfunctional) parenting figure. So you see... The game was rigged from the start.
In alot of ways the Entities push into our world to experience it, experience us. Adults are already filled books so they simply extract that, and calls out to adults similar to it....but a child lets the entity feel all of it firsthand. I think the Desolation abandoned its followers in a way after Agnes. It felt what a human was before fury gripped them. Agnes didnt doubt her destiny, the Desolation did. Agnes just followed suit.
@@clayxros576 Did you also notice that, for an avatar of a fear related to intense anger and frustration... Agnes is always calm and has never lost her composure...
@@arifhossain9751 Indeed, a cold rage is rather unusual for a force of destruction and loss. Considering Agnes was closer to the flame than anyone...its making me wonder if alot of the entities are malicious, or just have destructive power. I mean clearly the Stranger is malicious, but the End, Spiral and Web are rather helpful much of the time. I gotta wonder how much of the entities followers are acting on compulsion, and how many are furthering their own goals independent of the entity's will.
Re-listening to this tonight and I get the impression that for as evil as Arthur Nolan is, and he is an evil, cruel, sadistic, petty man, but for all that, I get the impression that he truly regretted treated Agnes as a god or a weapon to be prepared, and not as a child for whom he should have been a father figure towards.
Is there some aura of negative energy Jon's projecting that we can't feel as listeners or is everyone mean to him just because he doesn't defend himself 🤔 The only one I can fully understand is Martin's distance because Peter told him it would "protect" Jon but everyone else except from Daisy is being really harsh and I can't relate lol
Daisy saw him in her dreams every night watching her partner get eaten by a coffin. Basira had the same for a while before she was manipulated into signing a contract that trapped her into basically a cult. Melanie had the same except she has such a hatred of being trapped that she was willing to kill Elias and maybe everyone in the institute including herself over it. All of this being at least a little bit Jon’s fault, and the fact that Peter Lucas is managing them and you shouldn’t be too surprised he’s been isolated.
in their eyes its his fault all of them are there, and in a way they're right even though he didn't do it on purpose and had no way of knowing what would happen. jon letting melanie have access to the institute library led to her getting infected by the slaughter, basira saving jon from daisy led to her being collateral.
I also think Jon and Elias both probably give the feeling like they're watching you intently, trying to pry into you as an effect of the eye. First time watching but I cant shake the suspicion that part of the eye is an instilling of paranoia into those touched by it and as Jon as an avatar for it now.... Well...
I love that one defense against the eye's compulsion is to just start sharing everything that could even be tangentially connected to the question and irritate the person doing it so badly that they stop.
*Season 1* Johnathan: it seems my predecssor, Gertrude Robinson, could not count. *Season 4* Arthur Nolan: I hope you understand how the Lightless Flame works Gertrude: I hope the Lightless Flame understand how I work. Your buddy Eugene is in Hell
Wow this just makes me feel even worse for Jane. Like, if she wasn’t claimed by the Flesh Hive, she was just going to become another Desolation victim?
Avatars have to actively choose to become an avatar of the entity they’re a part of, which is why Peter can’t force Martin to becoming part of the lonely. The only avatar who didn’t have a choice was Agnes.
@@dull_demon4717Also the Web is an exception to this rule. Asking for permission is kind of against its nature. They also don't need permission to mark you.
Bought a book on childcare. The fact that they're shown for all their excitement at making a literal chosen one, they're still just people. The intricacies involved are just stunning
I love learning more about Gertrude, she's so ruthless but she's also so cool! Her connection to Agnus and the web was so surprising and yet made so much sense, and now we know why that circle and the woods was there too. I always thought someone else set that up to hurt her somehow, but that it was the opposite is very neat. It hurt t the end when Georgie implied she wouldn't go to therapy with Jon if he asked, I hope their friendship can be salvaged
it truly tickles me that the va for gertrude is jonathan's mom. jon going "hey mom can you voice a menacing old lady in my story please?" and her going "sure son, i would love to"
Listening to the series this second time means that, despite not really liking how Georgie is handling it all and how fast she dropped Jon, I actually now understand where she's coming from. It's impossible not to when, with 4 seasons worth of knowledge, I had to relisten to season 3, when she was repeatedly telling Jon: "You don't need to do this", "You can stop", "You have a choice". She was the one person who, through it all, stood by his side, hid him from the police, and repeatedly tried to have him make a better choice. To choose humanity and preservation above curiosity and knowledge. And then he goes and doesn't listen. He ends up choosing to leave his humanity behind. To live, of course, I'm not saying it was an easy choice. Pretty sure most people would trade humanity for more time alive any day of the week. But he did have a choice. And she really wishes he'd listened to her sooner. That he wouldn't have gone down this path.
Though if he stopped earlier the world would have ended so..... his choice options weren't great. And he knew that there were more rituals coming. Not to mention, he was under a lot of stress, a lot of bad stuff and a lot of trauma. From an earlier episode he says that he "thinks" he made the choice to come back, which means it was really him just instinctually screaming out that he _didn't want to die_ . I'm only on a first listen right now, so I have no idea exactly what's going on through Georgie's mind, but I think she thinks/knows that the Jon that was her friend died in that coma and what he became afterwards is something else. And she is not a fan.
@@ViridianForests Back when I wrote this comment, I hadn't yet listened to season 5, but it was my second time listening to season 4, so some of my thoughts on Georgie have since changed. I agree with you he had no good choices (it's kind of his theme throughout the series, let's be honest) and I remember on my first listen I got really, really hurt by the way Georgie dropped him as soon as he was back from the coma. But with S4 (including the season finale) knowledge, I couldn't help but look at her role in his life in a different light. I'm curious to know what you think once you're finished with S4, or even with S5. This podcast is really good, every new episode just builds on top of your thoughts from previous episodes and I feel like it does a really good job making us think about choices, consequences and hindsight.
I find it interesting how we hear so much from people who are already dead... It really shows the impact everyone has, how we all leave something behind. Big or small. Positive or not
Wow. There is a lot of backstory explained here, but also a big hefting chunk of foreshadowing. I'm kind of low key pissed off at this guy for letting... *that* happen to Jane Prentiss and just sitting back and watching.
yeetus deletus from earlier episodes this was confirmed so yeah 👀 sameee my parents want me to be passionate about shit I am not passionate about. It’s exhausting! I’m of at least drinking age and they still can’t get over that!
There's so much great going on in this episode, Gertrude delivering some well comeuppance to some of these bastards, Magical Idiot Pryo Cult raising their Firey Messiah Baby is a sitcom i would watch, and also Wow Jon and Georgie's interaction is so great and so sad.
"in the middle of a forest in the Scottish Highlands" Sounded familiar to me so I looked it up, it's from MAG 37. The poor guy who disrupted her ritual circle lost his car, then his house burnt down, and then his wife presumably burned to death before he took his own life by lighting himself on fire.
Gertrude is such a badass and I love her. She's so ruthless, sassy and has all these avatars lowkey terrified of her. Also "the desolation killed my cat" is just pure gold. She's such an interesting, complex character and I adore her.
Gertrude is the type of old woman that everyone goes "she is such a nice old woman" and then those who actually know are like cussing her out franticly in their mind Edit: "I thought you liked the gory details" lord I freaking love this for some reason Edit: I will BAWL during one of these episodes if yall can't give jon some one to be by his side, like please his and goergie's friendship slowly withering away is killing me😭🤧
As much as it’s understandable why one would want to avoid Jon, I imagine his eye powers make him very discomforting to be around, I really hope they realize that the more they isolate him, the more dangerous and unstable he’s gonna get. You think he’s creepy now? Just wait until he has no one to turn to except his eldritch eye patron because everyone abandoned him. Hell, that might be part of the reason Elias put Peter Lukas in charge of the institute! As a lonely avatar, he could isolate Jon and thus drive him away from humanity and farther into the waiting arms of the Eye.
@@luminanightfall4111 yeau that was odd to me but ig it's understandable she wants him to stear clear of all this "sIniSTer eNcOunTers" and tapes and stuff
@@luminanightfall4111 I think Georgie's made up her mind about how all of that Archivist bussiness is messing Jon up (which, I mean... she's right) and it frustrates her to see him fall deeper into it instead of cutting himself off and getting out while he still had a chance. Imagine your friend is falling into a toxic relationship and refuses to end it even when they get hurt by it. At some point you'll want to distance yourself, because you're not even angry, but frustrated with them and you don't want to keep watching that, when you know they won't listen to you and there's nothing you can do. I feel like that might be the case for Georgie. She's tried to pul him out and now she's just tired and doesn't want to see him destroy himself
The highlights of this ep for me were Diego for actually buying a parenting book, Gertrude's guy for getting his parenting trauma off his chest with Gertrudes therapy powers and the coffee shop au guy saving the world with slice of life. The lightless flame really was a last minute homework/ copy each other's notes cult
Gertrude and Arthur's conversations are funny as hell. Gertrude's one hell of a lady. Georgie and Jon's convo made my stomach drop to my stomach. Because when Georgie knocked I was sure it was melanie since shes the only one who knocks in that place and when I heard Georgie's voice I thought Mel was replaced by a Not! or smth
SHE IS SUCH A BOSS!! ARTHUR I would find you intimidating if you were ...well intimidating, the fact that you fail to see that you are not, is both reassuring and pitiful LIKE DAMMMMM GIRL Don't mess with me darling you haven't known true torture yet, now eat your biscuits, have some tea and tell me how your cult is faring these days, know that the answer better be terrible.... or else. You self entitled over grown candle 🕯
I've always thought Gertrude never liked the Eye. There's so many hints to it. Even in the fact that when she starts a statement, she never mentions her role as the archivist, while Jon always states what he is. This is even more significant considering that after Jon turns into an avatar, he changes from the head archivist of the magnus institute to The Archivist.
Love me some BAMF Gertrude content! On the other hand, Georgie gets a big “not cool” sticker for the way she’s treating Jon. I wish I could just reach through my phone screen and yell at Jon that he is loved and deserves the world. :(
This is so funny after Scrutiny and how Martin literally did take a complaint. Can you imagine charging into the Archives all filled with indignation talking about wanting to file a complaint against (another) employee of the insitute. And then that's what the complaint is about lmao.
s1 Gertrude: old lady who cant organize, bad at her job
s4 Gertrude: old lady who kills people, a little too good at her job
Gertrude would have been a perfect avatar for the slaughter, dead meat would have a field day adding up Gertrude’s kill count
The fact that barista boy saved the world makes me happy
A face for a world
Gave the would be goddess a moment of humanity
I think it's kinda cute imagining these magic pyromaniacs raising a little kid
I'm finding that I actually care/feel for a lot about these "monsters"
Growing list of things I'd love to get a fan comic of.
Can't say I'd really be charmed by psychopaths who ruin lives and actively murder people with agony. But hey, I've seen weirder sitcoms.
@@josharchibald4637 Congratulations, you described the premise of why something would be funny while being 100% straight faced about it.
"When Diego brought us a book on childcare."
I'm laughing, crying, screaming, throwing up I- XD
My heart still breaks for Agnes. Her life was so sad
Anyone else notice that while Gertrude asked questions there was no compultion static? I wonder if she ever actually does use eye powers or if she is avoiding it on purpose.
I wonder if she never had full Archivist powers bc she was bound to Agnes - this way The Web stoped 2 major players procedings in one go?
Gerry said she didn't like using it. Didn't like Knowing Things and didn't like using Compulsion. He also said in his episode that, in order to feed the Eye, she read statements out loud, but without recording them necessarily.
So she was feeding it just enough so it wouldn't feed on her.
Remember how Gertrude crossed off everything that resembles an eye in her house? I think it's safe to assume that she did not like serving The Eye.
More like she didn't like Elias snooping on her, since he can look at things through any eye, either physical or metaphorical
@@Argozene Well, at the time, I thought she was keeping secrets from The Eye itself rather than from Elias..
“i don’t see a way we can meaningfully progress this conversation while you’re under the impression that your threats mean anything to me.” dude gertrude was such a badass
She was such a BAMF lol
Nerves made from the hardest steel
ngl being a landlord is 100% a great profession for a Desolation devout
oh yea
F the housing market
Lightless flame: "LORD is apt."
@@ixisnyx6860HOUSING SHOULD NOT BE A COMMODITIE. **Pan**
Arthur: You're *reeeeeeally* pushing it . . .
Gertrude: Feel free to push back. 😌 💅
Memento Mori
@@headofathousandsheepswool What an 18 hour ago comment :o
@@ProjectSebastiann Rewatching the series :)
@@headofathousandsheepswool This is my first time watching! :o
@@headofathousandsheepswool "watching"
Now I cant forgive Gertrude for what she did to Michael and Gerad- but my god she was a fucking *BADASS*
I wouldn't be too impressed. The Lightless Flame was rather neutered at that point, and it's clear they're even less capable than the Buried versus someone who knows how to fight back. They're bullies who cant take competition.
@@clayxros576 so was ISIS and wiping them out was pretty impressive.
True badasses tend to have done some unforgivable bullshit at some point. It’s how you get a rep for being badass in the first place.
I'm pretty certain she put Gerard in the book to prevent him from becoming an Avatar of the Eye... But she had no excuse for Michael.
Jon: I really miss having people who know their way around computers better than I do.
Me, thinking of Martin offering to show Peter how to use a computer: Why oh why do you tease me with subtleties, now I'm sad.
ikrrr it made me so sad...
i thought it was a nod at sasha
I thought the same thing
NOOOOOO 😭
Oh god the callback to that poor innocent man who found the circle and lost everything
Actually all the callbacks in this episode are great
georgie and jon's crumbling (...probably crumbled) friendship is giving me the big sad
Yep, my heart ached a little, hearing the way Jon didn't even have any hope of her still loving him as a friend
But I don't get why???
Is it because of something Jon had *done* or is it because... Actually I don't know why else she would be mad at him. I think she knows everything doesn't she? So I mean she knows that he doesn't really have a choice in the matter
@@rai4119 Being an avatar of The End, she can probably feel his awakening and the fact that he chose to sacrifice his personhood to live. I don't think she's mad at him necessarily, more a concerned "this ain't right, I can't associate with you."
Imagine being so sassy you could roast a Desolation follower for 20 straight minutes
An Avatar of the flame and yet my boy was still roasted by the end 😭
🔥
Georgie said "no ❤" and you could just here it break john...
WHY DKD SHE SAY NL IM GONNA CRY. I WOULD CARRY HIM BRID STYLE AND KISS HIS FOREHEAD
Yeah you could feel sadness literally seep out of him
He was so sad at the end 😭
Damn Jon sounds so sad and broken...... he's just trying to do his friends right and respect their foundries as much as he possibly can with his eye power randomly becoming a dickhole sometimes. You can hear the fear in their voices... and poor jon... i feel like hes just days away from his poor human heart truely breaking.
Is it too much to ask for Jon to have a fully functioning relationship with just ONE person?
Also, don't mind me just casually feeding the term 'harmless little old lady' into a garbage disposal
Gertude was a very scary little old lady. I would hate to be on her bad side... luckily she's dead now...
You know what? Jon get your coat, we’re going to therapy
𝕐𝔸𝕐!!!!!
So, Eugene is alive, concious, and is extreme agony, and cant scream. And, Gertrude says that even THAT will look like a mercy? That lady is scary.
It's great that Gertrude provided monster therapy
I just wonder if at this point Jon has to press a button to turn the tape recorders off or they just do it themselves when he says "End Recording" xD
My new headcanon is that now that everyone know their sentient, they don't have to pretend to be "normal" anymore and they turn themselves off
The ultimate “fuck around and find out” I love this woman
.......... So when jon inevitably goes off the deep end i'm gonna be in full support of him tbh... y'all really continue to do him dirty like this and pretend you have the moral high ground :[
they keep pushing him away and im so scared he's just gonna snap eventually :/
It's no wonder he became an alcoholic getting drunk on personal info
Testify. Martin excepted though, despite his current failing.
Edit: and Daisy. She's come around in a big way.
@@someoneawesome8717 He's a stress eater :>
Yeah I really don't know what anyone expects. He's trying so hard to help and hold on to his humanity and they just keep berating him like he's the worst of the worst. I understand being wary of all this but man, isn't it hard to be this mean to someone who isn't doing it first?
Do y'all remember that guy who found that creepy circle in the woods, the one that was connected to Gertrude? I'm wondering if that's the circle she was talking about because after he broke it, his house burst into flames and lost his wife to that, then he set himself on fire to save his son. I can't remember the episode name but I'm sure they're connected.
I also thought about this one
@Whirling Sand no I think its Burnt Offering from season 1
Ye I think that was the implication! I'm happy to finally know more about that incident!
I think it was him, yes. There were pictures of Gertrude in the circle, too.
@@hollynotholy oh yes! Wow. He came to the Institue itself to complain; Gertrude knew
Man, Gertrude's a Girl Boss.
Girl Boss? Why not just Boss?
@@AbstractQueer Girl Boss is a TV series based on a book about a female CEO. The book might actually have been an autobiography, but I've only heard about it second hand and was never interested. Anyway. I've heard it compared to both Dexter and Breaking Bad. The main character is independent and vicious about acquiring and maintaining power, power corrupts, there's drama and manipulation and betrayal, etc, etc.
*gerry voice*: you cant gaslight gatekeep girlboss your way out of this one, gertrude
@@netgeekdoggirl That made me choke laughing, thank you
The more I hear about Gertrude, the more it feels like Elias did the world a favor
I really like how Arthur half way through the statement decided to start ranting. You want to hear my story ? Fine then you have listen to my ranting about my coworkers too
It’s such a fun peek into the mundane bickering that goes on even in this horrific nightmare cult
@@haphazardlark1502 Puts it into perspective that all the avatars are still clueless fuckers.
it’s so sad seeing both georgie and martin pull away from jon at the same time🥺🥺 those r like his people
I like Arthur Nolan's rant against Diego
"but no, he read it in some ANCIENT TOME, so THAT'S THAT -"
yeah it was so freaking funny
"Alright if you have to Know me then you will know every little insignificant annoyance I feel. Have fun being a therapist"
Yes! And Manuela had a similar one about that _Natalie_, it was so funny too!
He murders innocent people in the most horrific ways but draws the line at naming the lightless name the sag lol
It's always really interesting seeing how Gertrude feeds The Eye.
"Why don't you try to leave and find out?" is very a much a "Am I being watched? Was I being watched? Did someone set something up while I wasn't looking? What do they know that I don't?" kind of fear to instill in someone.
I wonder if she ever admitted that kind of thing to herself.
Oh man I never thought about that side of it, not just as a threat to toy with him but inspiring a paranoia that’s food for these things. Thanks for pointing that out!
Thus was the life of Agnes Montague. Until now, all of the avatars gain their avatar status by being "chosen" as adults. Being *born* with such power is just unthinkable, such that... I believe Agnes never *truly* became an avatar. Being an avatar of fear entails more than just having powers, its about being a *physical manifestation* of the fear you represent. By being born with such power, Agnes never got to know the Desolation, and a child's innocence is pretty hard to corrupt into a burning rage, especially with no-one who is willing to be a real (dysfunctional) parenting figure.
So you see... The game was rigged from the start.
something something 24 karat run of bad luck
In alot of ways the Entities push into our world to experience it, experience us. Adults are already filled books so they simply extract that, and calls out to adults similar to it....but a child lets the entity feel all of it firsthand. I think the Desolation abandoned its followers in a way after Agnes. It felt what a human was before fury gripped them. Agnes didnt doubt her destiny, the Desolation did. Agnes just followed suit.
@@clayxros576
Did you also notice that, for an avatar of a fear related to intense anger and frustration... Agnes is always calm and has never lost her composure...
@@arifhossain9751
Indeed, a cold rage is rather unusual for a force of destruction and loss. Considering Agnes was closer to the flame than anyone...its making me wonder if alot of the entities are malicious, or just have destructive power. I mean clearly the Stranger is malicious, but the End, Spiral and Web are rather helpful much of the time. I gotta wonder how much of the entities followers are acting on compulsion, and how many are furthering their own goals independent of the entity's will.
@@clayxros576 sounds like you havent finished the podcast yet...
Most of the questions get answered.
*Most*
Re-listening to this tonight and I get the impression that for as evil as Arthur Nolan is, and he is an evil, cruel, sadistic, petty man, but for all that, I get the impression that he truly regretted treated Agnes as a god or a weapon to be prepared, and not as a child for whom he should have been a father figure towards.
jon saying "i forget you two know each other" about georgie and melanie is, with future context, possibly the funniest thing hes ever done
Georgie is killing me, I really miss their dynamic
Is there some aura of negative energy Jon's projecting that we can't feel as listeners or is everyone mean to him just because he doesn't defend himself 🤔 The only one I can fully understand is Martin's distance because Peter told him it would "protect" Jon but everyone else except from Daisy is being really harsh and I can't relate lol
Daisy saw him in her dreams every night watching her partner get eaten by a coffin.
Basira had the same for a while before she was manipulated into signing a contract that trapped her into basically a cult.
Melanie had the same except she has such a hatred of being trapped that she was willing to kill Elias and maybe everyone in the institute including herself over it.
All of this being at least a little bit Jon’s fault, and the fact that Peter Lucas is managing them and you shouldn’t be too surprised he’s been isolated.
@@stevenmcclary534 Also, remember Scrutiny: Jon can be *intense* in ways that are rather uncomfortable to be around.
in their eyes its his fault all of them are there, and in a way they're right even though he didn't do it on purpose and had no way of knowing what would happen. jon letting melanie have access to the institute library led to her getting infected by the slaughter, basira saving jon from daisy led to her being collateral.
I also think Jon and Elias both probably give the feeling like they're watching you intently, trying to pry into you as an effect of the eye. First time watching but I cant shake the suspicion that part of the eye is an instilling of paranoia into those touched by it and as Jon as an avatar for it now.... Well...
15:32 "I didn't actually ask." that will forever be funny to me
I love that one defense against the eye's compulsion is to just start sharing everything that could even be tangentially connected to the question and irritate the person doing it so badly that they stop.
*Season 1*
Johnathan: it seems my predecssor, Gertrude Robinson, could not count.
*Season 4*
Arthur Nolan: I hope you understand how the Lightless Flame works
Gertrude: I hope the Lightless Flame understand how I work. Your buddy Eugene is in Hell
I'm so sad about Georgie and Jon's friendship breaking :(
Wow this just makes me feel even worse for Jane. Like, if she wasn’t claimed by the Flesh Hive, she was just going to become another Desolation victim?
i mean, at least if she was victim of the desolation, she would have died human
Avatars have to actively choose to become an avatar of the entity they’re a part of, which is why Peter can’t force Martin to becoming part of the lonely. The only avatar who didn’t have a choice was Agnes.
@@thestranger4894 yeah, but sometimes the choice is involuntary or accidentally, because they don't know what their getting into.
@@dull_demon4717Also the Web is an exception to this rule. Asking for permission is kind of against its nature.
They also don't need permission to mark you.
Bought a book on childcare. The fact that they're shown for all their excitement at making a literal chosen one, they're still just people. The intricacies involved are just stunning
I love learning more about Gertrude, she's so ruthless but she's also so cool! Her connection to Agnus and the web was so surprising and yet made so much sense, and now we know why that circle and the woods was there too. I always thought someone else set that up to hurt her somehow, but that it was the opposite is very neat.
It hurt t the end when Georgie implied she wouldn't go to therapy with Jon if he asked, I hope their friendship can be salvaged
it truly tickles me that the va for gertrude is jonathan's mom. jon going "hey mom can you voice a menacing old lady in my story please?" and her going "sure son, i would love to"
"I have no head, and I must scream"
Underrated comment. XD
Listening to the series this second time means that, despite not really liking how Georgie is handling it all and how fast she dropped Jon, I actually now understand where she's coming from.
It's impossible not to when, with 4 seasons worth of knowledge, I had to relisten to season 3, when she was repeatedly telling Jon: "You don't need to do this", "You can stop", "You have a choice". She was the one person who, through it all, stood by his side, hid him from the police, and repeatedly tried to have him make a better choice. To choose humanity and preservation above curiosity and knowledge.
And then he goes and doesn't listen. He ends up choosing to leave his humanity behind. To live, of course, I'm not saying it was an easy choice. Pretty sure most people would trade humanity for more time alive any day of the week. But he did have a choice. And she really wishes he'd listened to her sooner. That he wouldn't have gone down this path.
Though if he stopped earlier the world would have ended so..... his choice options weren't great. And he knew that there were more rituals coming. Not to mention, he was under a lot of stress, a lot of bad stuff and a lot of trauma. From an earlier episode he says that he "thinks" he made the choice to come back, which means it was really him just instinctually screaming out that he _didn't want to die_ .
I'm only on a first listen right now, so I have no idea exactly what's going on through Georgie's mind, but I think she thinks/knows that the Jon that was her friend died in that coma and what he became afterwards is something else. And she is not a fan.
@@ViridianForests Back when I wrote this comment, I hadn't yet listened to season 5, but it was my second time listening to season 4, so some of my thoughts on Georgie have since changed.
I agree with you he had no good choices (it's kind of his theme throughout the series, let's be honest) and I remember on my first listen I got really, really hurt by the way Georgie dropped him as soon as he was back from the coma. But with S4 (including the season finale) knowledge, I couldn't help but look at her role in his life in a different light.
I'm curious to know what you think once you're finished with S4, or even with S5. This podcast is really good, every new episode just builds on top of your thoughts from previous episodes and I feel like it does a really good job making us think about choices, consequences and hindsight.
I find it interesting how we hear so much from people who are already dead... It really shows the impact everyone has, how we all leave something behind. Big or small. Positive or not
Wow. There is a lot of backstory explained here, but also a big hefting chunk of foreshadowing. I'm kind of low key pissed off at this guy for letting... *that* happen to Jane Prentiss and just sitting back and watching.
to be fair, he was planning to burn her with the corruption in the house, but didnt get that far
Jon did you get your mum or smth to be Gertrudes Va? God I wish my mum was THAT supportive of me
yeetus deletus from earlier episodes this was confirmed so yeah 👀 sameee my parents want me to be passionate about shit I am not passionate about. It’s exhausting! I’m of at least drinking age and they still can’t get over that!
Didn't he get his dad to voice Leitner too
@@himeow7454 yup, that was his dad
@@himeow7454
Yeah and most of the actors are friends of his too. Really sweet actually...
_And more, next week on The Adventures of Gangster Old Lady_
Gertrude is so sassy I can't 😂
gertrude said if you’re not gonna kill me then leave
oh, i was wondering when georgie would pop up again. still keeping her distance from jon. girl you can't just abandon him like that :(
There's so much great going on in this episode, Gertrude delivering some well comeuppance to some of these bastards, Magical Idiot Pryo Cult raising their Firey Messiah Baby is a sitcom i would watch, and also Wow Jon and Georgie's interaction is so great and so sad.
Gertrude the badass! Holy crap that was amusing.😂
"in the middle of a forest in the Scottish Highlands"
Sounded familiar to me so I looked it up, it's from MAG 37. The poor guy who disrupted her ritual circle lost his car, then his house burnt down, and then his wife presumably burned to death before he took his own life by lighting himself on fire.
Gertrude is such a badass and I love her. She's so ruthless, sassy and has all these avatars lowkey terrified of her. Also "the desolation killed my cat" is just pure gold. She's such an interesting, complex character and I adore her.
" *screamin* all the *way* as the *flames* started to *reach* *em* ." Man just listerally SANG that line like a *hymn*
Gertrude is the type of old woman that everyone goes "she is such a nice old woman" and then those who actually know are like cussing her out franticly in their mind
Edit: "I thought you liked the gory details" lord I freaking love this for some reason
Edit: I will BAWL during one of these episodes if yall can't give jon some one to be by his side, like please his and goergie's friendship slowly withering away is killing me😭🤧
As much as it’s understandable why one would want to avoid Jon, I imagine his eye powers make him very discomforting to be around, I really hope they realize that the more they isolate him, the more dangerous and unstable he’s gonna get.
You think he’s creepy now? Just wait until he has no one to turn to except his eldritch eye patron because everyone abandoned him.
Hell, that might be part of the reason Elias put Peter Lukas in charge of the institute! As a lonely avatar, he could isolate Jon and thus drive him away from humanity and farther into the waiting arms of the Eye.
4:30 Gertrude's saccharine "alright?" I love it
Gertrude's a little scary. Proud of her
????why wouldn't georgie go with him?I THOUGHT U WERE COOL
Ackerman Yuki yeah that’s was a bit sad :/
cause jon isn't her girlfriend
I actually don't understand why she's angry (or dissapointed?) at him
@@luminanightfall4111 yeau that was odd to me but ig it's understandable she wants him to stear clear of all this "sIniSTer eNcOunTers" and tapes and stuff
@@luminanightfall4111 I think Georgie's made up her mind about how all of that Archivist bussiness is messing Jon up (which, I mean... she's right) and it frustrates her to see him fall deeper into it instead of cutting himself off and getting out while he still had a chance. Imagine your friend is falling into a toxic relationship and refuses to end it even when they get hurt by it. At some point you'll want to distance yourself, because you're not even angry, but frustrated with them and you don't want to keep watching that, when you know they won't listen to you and there's nothing you can do. I feel like that might be the case for Georgie. She's tried to pul him out and now she's just tired and doesn't want to see him destroy himself
The highlights of this ep for me were Diego for actually buying a parenting book, Gertrude's guy for getting his parenting trauma off his chest with Gertrudes therapy powers and the coffee shop au guy saving the world with slice of life. The lightless flame really was a last minute homework/ copy each other's notes cult
Gertrude and Arthur's conversations are funny as hell. Gertrude's one hell of a lady. Georgie and Jon's convo made my stomach drop to my stomach. Because when Georgie knocked I was sure it was melanie since shes the only one who knocks in that place and when I heard Georgie's voice I thought Mel was replaced by a Not! or smth
Gertrude protecting Barnabus from the Desolation is making me do a full 180 I'm a Gertrude fan all the way.
I just love Gertrude so much! And her VA is one of my absolute favorites ❤️
SHE IS SUCH A BOSS!!
ARTHUR I would find you intimidating if you were ...well intimidating, the fact that you fail to see that you are not, is both reassuring and pitiful
LIKE DAMMMMM GIRL
Don't mess with me darling you haven't known true torture yet, now eat your biscuits, have some tea and tell me how your cult is faring these days, know that the answer better be terrible.... or else. You self entitled over grown candle 🕯
the what the gfs is strong with this one
I've always thought Gertrude never liked the Eye. There's so many hints to it. Even in the fact that when she starts a statement, she never mentions her role as the archivist, while Jon always states what he is. This is even more significant considering that after Jon turns into an avatar, he changes from the head archivist of the magnus institute to The Archivist.
Therapy!!!
I'm sorry I just cant stop giving Gertrude BBB awards. Seriously she murdered that guy with words.
Love me some BAMF Gertrude content! On the other hand, Georgie gets a big “not cool” sticker for the way she’s treating Jon. I wish I could just reach through my phone screen and yell at Jon that he is loved and deserves the world. :(
rusty quill said alab (all landlords are bastards)
Geetrude the whole episode: *Fuck around and find out*
filing a complaint bc gertrude is neither real nor my wife
This is so funny after Scrutiny and how Martin literally did take a complaint. Can you imagine charging into the Archives all filled with indignation talking about wanting to file a complaint against (another) employee of the insitute. And then that's what the complaint is about lmao.
@@ZeroOhClock especially, when the employee in question has been dead for years (and also, was murdered by her boss)
God I can hear the smug grin in Gertrude's voice
I love the subtle ties to Martin and The Web
I still can't get over listening to these series and knowing that Gertrude loves her cat as much as I do.
I think this is my fav episode. Gertrude is so badass, and morally grey lmao
oh she means that stuff with the hanging pictures of her and the weird shiz in the woods, a lovely reference~
I really like Arthur's VA's voice, its hot 😳
I feel like it's the same person who voiced Breekon?
hehe, "hot"
For real
@@fluffsnake It's a different person. The guy who voiced Breekon is called Martin Corcoran
Hehe "hot
Glad to see Georgie again
But im worried now.
Where is the Admiral?
10:29 FINALLY I GET TO KNOW WHAT THAT WAS
Ah, Georgie. My feelings = 0 respect. I don't like people who abandon friends. Especially when they're going through hard times.
I like her a lot but I can't imagine how horrible it is to know for a fact that your oldest friend upset you're alive. Poor Jon
OHHHHHHHH he was Jane Prentiss’s landlord!!!!!
"You should probably get some therapy too"
I fucking wheezed XD
The Asah rant is extra funny to me lol.
Gertrude is so badass and savage, I love her xD
Oh, yes, the worst monster of all : the landlord
Really? I thought I heard you talking about a screaming headless corpse just now...
An ice cream truck just drove by and I thought it was carnival music starting to play in the background as they talked. THAT was weird.
Awwwww Jon 🥺
I'd go with you to therapy.
I love how this one gives us tiny clues on why Jon is a better avatar for The Eye than Gertrude.
gertrude is literally so slay
No wonder Jon turned to self medicating with getting power drunk, poor guy
Arthur, you are playing with fire.
Hi jonny😳😳😳😳
Melanie’s therapist seems weird... 👀
The fact that they gave her a voice must mean she will play a larger role in the story.
The cult of the lightless flame are awful, despicable people, but they’re weirdly endearing and likable
I don’t know why but I feel like Gertrude is a entity of the hunt because she’s to good at killing
You know what Gertrude really was a baddie ✨💅🏾💀
I wonder when Jon is going to use his powers on Martin to find out the truth?
Damn Gertrude is savage.
I love her more now.