Why Are Knockup Abilities So Powerful? | League of Legends
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 13 มิ.ย. 2024
- Out of all the types of crowd control present in the game, Knockups are known to be exceptionally strong for their inability to be mitigated via conventional means such as Tenacity. For today's mechanics discussion we'll be looking at Knockup abilities to see what exactly makes them so strong.
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Learning that Ornn doesn't really extend CC directly, but rather reduces the enemy tenacity was a cool learning moment I wasn't expecting
I play orn and I didn't even know brittle extended cc duration, I thought it just gave him an empowered auto attack
@@nyanbrox5418 Don't forget the knockback on auto. I used to main Ornn, but thankfully I've managed to quit playing league.
Congrats, you've escaped@@necromancer6405
@@necromancer6405 that's the only part that I knew it did xD
League is actually fun when you don't try so hard to win you know? You don't have to get to silver or gold or any high elos like that
I am otp ornn I was certain it extended any cc applied on the enemy, but apparently not lol
*it's because knock ups apply a hidden effect that spawns a minion around 9 months later*
How do you even come up with ts
@@v1nceifhewenttothesun682 you can abort the hidden effect if you go back to fountain before 10 weeks
@@SeanTurle 😭
@@v1nceifhewenttothesun682 some select pro-minion communitites within the NA region strictly do not attempt to counter the minion spawn as they believe it is against the Lore.
@@SeanTurleomg the LORE
Timing Ezreal’s E to basically negate Blitz’s hook is really satisfying to pull off.
You negate the pull but still get the stun and damage
Eh, just E when blitz hook starts and it buffers through
The issue is if they notice you can do it, they just go full ap and take 90% of your healthbar in that q. Because he still damages you.
@@boldisordorin9010 yea but I’m not in ranged to get gunned down the the enemy Bot and knocked up by Blitz E
@@einjharrelraca at which point blitscrank proceeds to get killed from half his screen away with the use of like 4 abilities
Cinematic Nautilus: His E is a WMD.
Gameplay: It does 20 damage and kinda slows or something.
Knocking up is so OP, it literally just forces you into a marriage
That's why i took measures so i can't knock someone up, now my wife can't trap me with marriage!... Wait a minute.....
Yeah in the 50's
in the wise words of gragas: Get pregnant
you can do the abortion tech to cancel the effect
@@MonkeH_ sadly not where I live in Texas... the times we live in :(
If tenacity worked on knockups, they would have to be twice as long, thats why regular hard cc generally lasts for so long and knockups doesnt
Yeah and they would look very goofy, like imagine you build full tenacity on garen and a yasuo q would just lift you off the ground barely, or it would not change the height but the speed, and it would look like its straight from a cartoon
@@h0sai 👌
@@h0sai click W = tenacity
theyre still like 1 second long and wayyy too common
@@dededemanreal the only issue tbh is yone and yasuos knockups because the cd scales off lethal tempo, so before u needed 2 attack speed items for a low cd, now all u really need is lethal tempo and 1100g. A yasuo or yone who can only really spam knockups after 2 completed items and boots is more acceptable.
This is why I think Janna is one of the most oppresive supports to deal with on the right hands. Though she's primarily a defensive champ focused on disengage but when people are good enough on her she can be played aggressively, aside from the w spam of course. Her q is such a good tool to catch enemies off guard and is especially good with a yasuo.
I think nami is worse. Her Q is cc, her W is heal and damage, her E is bonus damage, her R is a knock up and slow and to top it all off, every single ability gives move speed to herself and allies. I would rather deal with a janna than a nami
@@aw_1890 Janna's tornado is easier to hit and less telegraphed than Nami's Q(it being a knockup means that its unaffected by tenacity unlike Nami stun which is)
I remember seeing a clip of a yasuo knockning up an enemy with a blastcone then qssing the blastcone and ulting the enemy
That's actually massive brain
09:50 GRAGAS MOMENT
Plap plap get pregnant
bobam
Rip that build
Because being knocked up has recently been a status harder to get rid of in many American states.
still shorter duration than morgana q
TRUEEEEEE
They weren't kidding when they call it impregnator gragas
Yet still easier than most European countries.
@@SangoProductions213 elaborate on that one. in like a third of the US states it's completely illegal to get an abortion and even where you legally can get one, it's very much not easy to do so for differing reasons.
Literally just had a moment last night during aram where I missed my 4th jhin ult shot because a riven knocked them away ever so slightly and she yelled at me about how I missed a shot against a "cc'ed target"
Hey Vars, just giving you video suggestions. Why don't you talk the "eras" of champion design? Release champions, season 1 and 2, season 7 champs and so on?
I think it's very interesting to see the patterns of each year, season...
Good idea!
I think starting from 2020 we enter "200 years" era
Really good idea
@@Sebastian36962 my god dude. That 200 years comment was so cringe. I hated League for a long while after that
@@Sebastian36962 Then we need a "CertainlyT" era. Everything he made was so unfair that most of the stuff needed heavy nerfing and are still a few numbers away from being OP even now
But you can't QSS + flash (or any movement ability) to escape a knockup anymore since season 10 (10.23). Which sucks because, as Vars pointed out, it was a really cool mechanic that required knowledge and skill (+ you'd have to use both an item active AND a spell, or worse your flash, meaning it's a fair trade off imo).
That's how i feel regarding Riot removing flash + w on galio. So many abnoxious champs can buffer their cc with flash (think Neeko ult) but galio's was removed for some reason, made him quite useless for a while.
The 9 month followup CC is OP
Very good video, I love all of the examples in the video alongside accompanying gameplay. Each video keeps getting better and better
Wouldn’t mind seeing a video of you rating and discussing the pros and cons of each type of CC/debuff
I dont really comment on videos too much but man keep up the grind dude, super informative videos and you are really smart. Deserve way more than 200k subs imo
so much learning in this vid, damn, huge props I've been playin a while and thought ik quite a bit
Wouldn't it be cool if ''heavier'' champions like tanks or certain bruisers would be affected less by knockups in trade for something else? Idk just throwing out a random idea.
It is a sad Day on rift. Ez keeping his cool buffer trick while Jayce losing his 😢
They are reliable cc - what more is there to discuss? Forms of cc that can be easily negated (or at least mitigated in duration to the point of becoming ineffective) can never be a reason for a champions strength... it is too easy to take that strength away from them. But with reliable forms of cc, such as a knock-up, you know that you can always at least play stun-bot for your team. Even Leona, who has a LOT of cc, is less effective at cc in 4v4/5v5 team fights relative to Cho'Gath - Cho has a ranged AoE knock-up, but Leona might walk into a ton of Tenacity and do very little.
Especially now that the rune page perks are changed, unreliable cc is now considerably worse. Champions will often be starting the game with a fair amount of Tenacity... sometimes the entire opposing team will. The value of knock-ups in that environment is going to be a bit higher than before.
not true, for me unreliable cc is cc that is hard to use, not cc that can be mitagated by tenacity as the only reliable source of tenacity is legend tenacity, mini tenacity rune and merc treads, unrealiable cc is things like yasuo 3rd Q, zerath stun or taric stun, or the most emblemitic gragas ult, eventhough its a knock back it might as well be just an aoe nuke with a ministun as you cannot guarateed the direction of the knock back at all, even though leona only has a lot of stuns it's not as if adcs want to run merc treads and legend tenacity just because they are against a leona, also cho gath stun is another very unreliable CC, hitting that shit is almost impossible, it's good follow up if someone gets locked down, but counting on hitting it to start a fight i would say leona is better 90% of the time for that
Unreliable CC is also Poppy and vayne. Way to often Just Slide along the wall
even if you have literally every instance of tenacity available to you in the game, it still doesn't reduce it below around 50%.
Also any knock up gives you built in synergy with two extremely popular hypercarries: Yasuo and Samira.
One extra interaction that's not super important but still cool: knock-ups are slightly worse against champions with on-demand Unstoppable like Ornn or Udyr because if they can unstoppable the initial knock-up they dodge the entire cc. This is unlike with roots or stuns like dark binding which still hit them and cc them for the remainder of the duration after the unstoppable wears off.
also suppresses typically are also basically a self stun as you cant do anything else while doing it (except skarner) unlike knockups
I think knockups should have a tenacity that's based on target champion size
Ie, baron is immune to knockups assumidly because he's gargantuan, but a cho'gath that's the size of your nexus should probably be harder to knock up than a lux, unless he's being knocked up by say, another cho'gath
Greetings!
Sound like balans nightmare.
But I realy like it 😇
More riot spaghetti code
@@thrall6647 I'm not saying it would definitely work I just think it would be kinda cool
@@boombabitch I mean, a form of that already exists for Setts ult, dealing more damage the larger the enemy he body slams into the rest of your team.
You talking about how awesome Thresh is. Plus the update to support items with the new season. Has me thinking of switching back to Sup from ADC.
Displacement, one of the reasons I miss Volibear’s Q and E. There were so many time the E Samex me and me just flipping my opponent into my tower lol
The thing is tenacity many seasons ago had knock up added, then they changed some of the status effects to change almost all knock-up to airborne. This effectively removed the knock up condition reverting the change they made to tenacity. It was like when polymorph was it's own status, then they just made it the combination of 3 effects instead of one single status. This simplified rare status effects, such as polymorph only being on lulu, reduce the many keywords with similar effects.
technically tenacity still does reduce knock up, but since almost every knock up ability was changed to have two status effects, stun and airborne it made this irrelevant. It is funny how the fact at one point tenacity did affect knock up (but not knock back) was never brought up, but maybe because it has long since changed again.
This whole video is basically an explanation of why i loved old(pre rework) volibear E with the knockback and i still miss it, it made him feel so nicr
Uzi flash cleanse on Lee Sin ult is a classic
i never thought of knocks being op, but i do find fear being the best cc in the game, it is like a long lasting knock since you can still manipulate the direction people affected by it.
Fear is reduced by tenacity and can be cleansed
a 2s Fear is infintely worse than a 2s knock-up
In fact, knock up beign so broken is the reason it usually has shorter durations
@@xolotltolox7626a 2 sec stun doesn't exist in the game
@@baptistecochennec5956 there are plenty of 2s stuns in the game, TF gold card for one
Unless you are stupid in the other way and meant to type knock up, which yeah, and I fucking wonder why? Maybe because knockups are absolutely broken?
Also, in case you thought your comment was meaningful in the slightest: Do you know what a hypothetical is?
@@xolotltolox7626 your argument makes no sense dumbfuck "knock up are broken imagine if they lasted 2 sec" yeah that's why they don't last 2 sec that's the point. That's like saying execute are broken imagine if they executed at 100% hp
nah only 4 minutes in but i really like learning abt how specifically stuns work. i actually knew a lot of what was said, but still somehow learned a ton. i think doing this every once in a while wouldnt be a bad thing. idk any other channels close to ur size that would teach a lot of ppl these things, but also i dont really watch a lot of league content so i could be wrong
“To know thy enemy is to know thyself” or it’s just fun to look at and understand numbers and mechanics
Vars, are you planning doimg a tier list of cc. you could easily describe all of them and explain why some of them are unhealthy to game.
Great video! Can you please do Suppress next? Because I think suppress is a bad (?) CC due to the fact that the aggressor also couldn't do anything while inflicting CC to its target.
Skarner
IDK if it works on PC LoL, but at least on wild rift if you time something correctly (easiest ones to pull off are kass r and ez e, but I've seen a cait accidentally pull it off with her e, but it's generally harder to do with dashes), you can cleanse the knockup. For example, if you see a malphite ulting towards you and just use ult as kass, and the malph ult hits you during the 0.25 second cast time, then after the cast time finishes you still teleport to your target location, with the knockup being no longer applied to you after it goes off (you're still knocked up for the fraction of a second between the knockup hitting you and the blink going off though, but after the blink goes off you're no longer knocked up). This applies to all knockups, not just forced movement ones like blitz hook (although it does apply to hooks too)
I think there are non-airborne displacement as well, such as Rell R, Renata Q, etc.
Asol’s e is one that confuses people I play with; they wonder why their swifties aren’t reducing the e slow. In reality there is no slow on but a mild displacement towards the Center. You can actually use it as a sling shot to gain speed with Nunu snowball drifting.😂
Yea the startup of rell r is classed as a pull which counts as airborne, but the dragging effect afterward is kinematics like skarner r
I believe items like QSS no longer cleanse knock ups since season 11. Only Gangplank q and, not sure, but maybe also rengar w.
What I h8 about knocked up or displaced is that it often bugs and you end up being cc-ed longer
You didnt talk about the king of displacement (and i understand why)
K'sante!
all of his abilites are some form of displacement and its quite hard to know when to use your spells since your team will never know when you do it, only react to it. good example is using his R to get someone over a wall to e.g. the river where your jungler is, if theyre not straight up standing still waiting, it wont cross their mind to think where the enemy will land only that they might appear there.
I think knockups being the way they are is mainly so champions kits don't seem awkward. Imagine Vi if tenacity affected her R and enemies were CCed less time than she was. It would be like what happened to Renekton W when they changed the duration and animation length at the same time. Or how much longer Yasuo's Q3 would have to last just so he'd be functional in a solo lane.
But that should happen. Though tenacity should not affect the knockup duration, rather health/armor should. Yes, it's WAY harder for VI to lift a huge burly tank like Nautilus, compared to someone like Ezreal. Yes, tanks should be less affected by displacements.
Yone E should also apply a small knock up, to help him during the laning phase.
hahaha
The only thing Yone should is to be removed from the game
we should knocup your ass for saying that
no
Nah, his W should, also apply on hit on all targets hit
This reminds me about that Jarvan E Q cancel Poppy ult
I remember time when kalista passive was coded as displacement. So you could cancel Leesin R with passive or cancel Bliz Q in the same way as ezreal does.
I don't think the QSS / cleansing of the stun portion works anymore. It just disables your item during the knock up duration and only after the airborne can you cleanse or QSS the stun.
As a Rell main, displacement is my closest friend and worst enemy.
Not too relevant but, my favorite Blitz counter is Neeko. W can get grabbed by his hook, but the real treat is from hitting level 6. You put yourself in an easily hooked spot, wait for him to fire, then ult. Now you’re ulting right on top of him. He will be very hesitant to hook you after you hit that a few times.
I should mention the reason why ppl think you can't cleanse out of airborne is bcs you can't with the summoner spell only qss or champion abilities can like gankplank w.
Because it clearly says, that you can't cleanse airborne with items or Cleanse. I also thought for a long time, that champs like GP or Rengar can't cleanse airborne.
I actually knew this as a GP main. If you time it right your can w flash out of a knock up
Riot removed QSS flash in 10.23 a sad day. I don't know why they did this too. (I'm also confused why some outdated mechanics were mentioned) also yasuo's ult used to be coded as an airborn suspension not a knock up (so before you could qss yasuo r, as long as you did it after he teleported to you if you did it to early it wouldn't work) i think they changed it when they made all of the adjustments to knockups for tenacity then never went through with the changes in preseason 10.
There should be like an item that weighs you down and reduces knock up timers
Never was it mentioned that Malphites knockup is so oldly coded, that the knockup factor lingers for so much, its why Yasuo even when it seems the opponent has already landed and even doesnt seem knocked up anymore can still trigger his R
You kind of mentioned it by showing janna’s q but I think you can stress specifically how defensively broken linear projectile knockups are against dashes.
Any offensive dash will go from the enemy to the target in a straight line. So you don’t even need to precisely guess the timing of the dash: the dasher and the projectile path will necessarily intersect along the way. So the Time window for the cast is (travel time projectile + dash travel time). Even against the fastest dash possible the time window is at least the travel Time of the projectile.
That’s why cho’s q or nautiles R function almost just like stuns : you can’t effectively use them as dash canceling nor dash negating abîlities. If you want to use Cho’s q the time window is (size of q / speed of dash)
Vandiril got mentioned: WTF IS A GAME WITHOUT BUGS 🦅🦅🦅
How many times have I used singed fling making a teammate miss a skill shot.....
What's the name of the music at the end?
Insec didn't invest insec, he just showed it for the first time in the mainstage and popularized it
I feel like most people how play league for at least fews seasons already know exactly why. It would be nice if there something in game that can counter knock up that not just some ability like Illaoi's R. May be more HP, tenacity, or character size will make champion heavier and make knock up or knock back on them less effective them.
What high noon cinematic is that from??
I personally have hated from the very beginning that tenacity is unless against the displacement part of CC. If you have tenacity, then you should not fly away that long, you should be heavier or the time for the displacement is shortened so you can act faster again.
Tfw you miss your q after kick as lee sin because you can't even predict your own displacement.
I thought that riot put airborne in the game so key cc spells from champs are guarenteed like malphite r
I don't think it was mentioned, but illaoi ult technically knocks her up. Making it possible to dodge cc with it.
I had no idea the vast majority of these interactions with knockups existed.
What do you think about rune changes
I'm kinda meh about knock ups or at the very least some of them. I'm always so happy to use Zyra ult which is a massive area of knock up but i never ever get the follow up. But when i play Malphite its always follow up garanteed XD
8:22 Honestly this right here is the reason I think the game should be 3D, in terms of certain jumps going over things that appear to be on the ground, like the cages.
Tldr: riot created a super cc type you cant realistically impact with clense or tenacity, then started playing favorites...
>.>.... Yone
Janna can be considered use knockup abilities like Howling Gale and combine Ultimate Monsoon to stop engaging back off away all the enemies and she can be keep scale for crowd control gameplay respectively support champion. 🌪🕊☁️🌬❤️🩹
what
Because its a hard CC. Gangplank can W to make you recover faster. That's the only thing I know that can lower slightly the effect of a knockup
i just really think snares should cancel dashes too. too often i land a root on a moving target and get 0 reward for it.
Thing is if your unstoppable and get stuned,
Your still stuned.
But if you get knocked up that cc just varnishes
If types of cc are infinity stones, gnar is thanos
Vision seems to still be holding on to that root
Cripple is insane in my opinion the name of it😭
The best cc is instant death IMO. Since S14 there is so many that type of cc its mad taking the rift by a storm (no pun intended).
Maybe this is why they had to deal with Impregnator Gragas?
I'd be more fine with knock ups if they weren't so universal, easy, and usually AOE. I wanna believe poppy's ult and later, bards ult was an experiment on new knock up designs, making the target untargetable and whatnot. There just isn't much gameplay to "True CC in an aoe with no restrictions"
But they stay not cuz they're balanced, but because people like them. It's fun to win after all.
My take is that if its a main damage tool, knockups should not last long without a major drawback since there's basically no counterplay.
I main Vi and even I feel abit unfair when im playing as an assassin.
champion size should work as tenacity for knockups, change my mind
What about Nami q? It has some odd rules to it
My favorite Knockup ability is Gragas's Body Slam : ]
But displacements locks ur character now too no? U used to be able to cleanse + movement ability to get out of knockups cause the stun part is over but they changed that. You can no longer cleanse/qss/wait out the stun part with tenacity to get out of it.
I would like to file a complaint with your manager. Where was the Thresh slap knocking Pyke out of his ult?
I thought riot just didnt want to make knockups mitigatable because of spaghetti code and looking weird for falling back down instantly
Gragas R and Anivia W are the best teamkillers in game and I burst out laughing everytime one of them fails while my team bursts out in rage and toxicity
Bro I feel like I’m watching a lecture on game design with every video.
i don't mind knock-up cc existing its yasuo and yone that make it annoying.
This was entertaining to me, who wanted it ❤
TLDR without even watching the video: its hard CC that stops all enemy actions and is also impossible to reduce or remove.
As a bonus, yasuo can ult you.
who needs knock ups when bard exists and his ulti does like evrything and it had the properties of an knock up ( you can t cleanse it)
Liss suppression is the best cc in the game because she can still do anything she want unlike Mal and WW. Is her R still a suppression or did they change it to stunn?
It says stun on her tool tip
bro when did the shift change cuz i didn't notice it, all the info in this video is so not talked these days about yet seemingly everyone in gold+ knew about them back in seasons 6-8, that's why thresh was considered S+ tier for so long
Cuz Malphite manages to knock me up without his R 🥵🥵🥵🥰😍
The reason knock ups are so strong is because they apply a hard CC to you for about 18+ years
well. in my humble opinion. currently we have way to many knockups im ok with displacement as such as blitz hook poppy ult. but the amount of straight up being knocked up for a long time feels off. there is a counter to it granted you have a buffer mechanic in your kit. but otherwise. what are you suppose to do. if they have sion gragas yasuo nami. ? you will be airborn for the entire duration.
just in case you didnt know, gragas E nami Q and sion Q all are reduced by tenacity, gragas E and sion Q just knock up you very shortly and then you remain stunned, while nami Q can be removed with both cleanse and mikaels so its not a true knockup. all of those champs i mentioned have pure knockups on their ultimates, though
@@desgracainferno as ive mentioned. not all champs have the ability to just run cleanse. or have abilities to counter it. i feel displacement should be kept on rare occasions. yasuo knockup is fairly low in cooldown. but from a simple standpoint. sion Q has a 0.5 second knockup. yasuo has one for 1 second. body slam might only last 0.25 ? combine that with yasuo extending the knockup duration. would i say yes. i was wrong? fuck yes i was. does that invalidate my statement of there being to many ? not as much
I remember fighting a team that had over 5 knockups once...with a yasuo. Never have I ever wished I was playing Olaf more than that game. I genuinely think they should give knockups the "kennen" treatment, where after the first one, any knockups within, idk, 5 seconds (?) have .5 duration. It's just so unfun when you're a 10/0 5k hp raidboss nasus, volibear, etc., but you try to do anything with your team and are cc'd for 10+ seconds in a 15 second fight, with tenacity doing nothing to help.
It'd be one thing if most knockups were single target. I'd be fine with that. But for some reason 90% of them are AoE? I genuinely don't understand why they have such preferred treatment like that. Then you add in champs like Alistar with his essentially target knockup, and Rek sai with a right click-knockup into oneshot, and nobody gets to have fun.
That being said, Thresh is one of my favorite champions in the game, so idk how much I can really complain.
so i know this innately will get me insulted but in smite, they have puri beads instead of cleanse. and it makes you immune to all CC for 2 seconds, if you time it correctly on incoming knock ups you can immune them. it to me is a much better system. it’s like cleanse but much better, honestly all summoner spells feel quite weak in league compared to smite equivalents.
Because it's not affected by Tenacity or Cleanse,simply
The reason Knockups are so powerful (and why ONLY Riven's/Aatrox's is balanced due to the very short duration of 0.75 on third Q/0.25 per Q seconds respectively) is because there is no way to reduce their duration.
Tenacity affects everything except Knockups and Suppressions, and while the latter is seldom found sans a few exceptions and is typically gated to strong ultimates (Malzahar and Warwick), Knockups manifest on so many champions' kits (and can be extended by Samira's passive, wahoo) that they literally have no counterplay. Entire matches were lost because the enemy team had more knockups than ours.
Knockups are just the true damage of crowd control abilities.