I think he was specifically looking for those still considered viable in the given role right now. Karma pretty quickly gets nerfs once she becomes commons place outside of support.
@@lillyie ikr? And it doesn't synergize well if bruisers and it's an AD item so mages can't use it, we had Shadowflame but for some reason they got rid of the anti shield part in favor of, you guessed it! ...More damage.... Fucking sucks, especially when they have shield spammers like karma and Lulu.
@@ConfettiBerg shadowflame was a mess, giving you 0-10 magic pen against shields which is literally nothing. Thats not even remotely close to an anti shield item
One time I was playing with some friends and I wanted to try Camille support, but we drafted full ad and the enemy team last picked malphite It was funny how the Camille support was the only one who could actually deal damage to the 1k armor malph
@@ericlin7775 men, camille support didnt worked when divine sunderer existed, is something that started with the rework of the sup items on this season
Fun fact: AP J4 Support has been played in high level pro play 38 times, with 20 wins vs 18 losses. Only counting major regions, this is 26 times with 15 wins vs 11 losses, 15 from Korea alone with 9 wins vs 6 losses.
Tristana used to be a cheese pick, now she’s just overpowered. Used to be if you didn’t respect her all in at lvl 2 was about the only way you could lose to her. Now she’s basically impossible to kill thanks to bone plate and absorb life, and she basically always gets first tower. Grubs have been huge for her. Her wave clear has always been insanely good because of her e passive, and the bomb does insane damage to tower. Pairing that with demolish and a few grubs means you cannot leave lane under any circumstances or you’re losing at least two plates. I think what makes Tristana kinda cheesy is she’s a character with insane tower push in a role where that’s very uncommon. That makes her really hard to punish because even if you’re winning lane in the traditional sense, more cs, a couple solo kills, she’s probably caught up with all the plate gold she’s gotten. I think trist mid was fine in a world before tower plates but if they wanna keep her mid flex now, especially with grubs in the game, they need to reduce her e damage to turrets, otherwise she’s just gonna be toxic if she’s ever viable.
I agree looking at pro play and just playing the game tris wasn't like Warwick or camelie where it had to be win lane lose Game she did Hella damage while also being a split pushing monster with any grub she more akin to a mage bot laner then a chess pick
@@CalamitygreedMages bot is still generally speaking a cheese pick. They function because their opponents(enemy botlaner) has no clue how to deal with them, not because they’re inherently OP. We saw a bit of Ziggs and Seraphine botlane in pro play, but else you have to go many years back before mages bot actually was meta in high mmr and pro play.
To play against Tristana, you need more range than her. I found great success playing Vel Koz into her, I think Xerath will work to, especially if you hold your stun for her engage
Interesting she got rayyyyped in bot lane. From near last year a s tier adc to a troll pick essentially. I can still do shit bot because I grinded with her for seasons and she my favorite ad... whatever she did mid she is super nerfed bot lane... I have to ban paisa every game and then 6 other ads and their support combo I'm already behind from 000 lma9
I love your mention of what is "cheese picks" in League of Legends, and comparing it to what it means in Dota In Dota 2, a "cheese pick" is exclusively referring to a last pick hero that is useless in 90% of games, unless specifically last picked when the enemy have no innate counters already drafted: This includes Meepo and Broodmother (1v9 if the enemy have low lockdown or AOE clear), huskar (if they lack burst physical damage and antiheal) and Nyx Assassin (if all the other team's draft are squishy mages), alongside others. It's not about playing a hero in an off-meta way, it's playing a hero into a draft that didn't cover its weaknesses enough.
I feel like your definition fits best with the term. All Vars example sound like off meta pick that happens to not get nerfed by the mercy of Riot. These off meta are chosen by the fact that the enemy didn't expect to see them in that role.
That just sounds like normal draft? You pick a champ that is good for the situation you are in and either abuse a mistake in draft by your opponent or cover roles that your teammates havent. As example i dont pick Poppy support often but when enemies already picked Zac jng and Leona support i will punish them for their drafting mistake. Similarly i played Ornn support specifically into Blitzcrank Nautilus blocking their hooks and statchecking them in melee range; the pick is unplayable against something like Brand Morgana but good in this situation
@@maciejkleszczynski9808 basically! Cheese picks are the term people use because salty/coping. Dota is way too balanced for off meta to put people off, since meta is constantly evolving.
I learned “cheese” being cannon rushed in Starcraft. I define it as a strategy that relies on your opponent reacting incorrectly to it. It’s basically a strategy where you present the enemy a puzzle and hope they aren’t knowledgeable enough to solve it
@@micahwest3566 Yeah. The difference between "cheese pick" in DotA and SC compared to Lol is the cheese picks are used to punish your opponents for making mistakes. You'd beat him anyway with the meta builds but you picked the cheese picks to further seal his fate. Cheese picks in lol can often beat you even when you are not making any mistakes in your build choice aka they are becoming meta.
I actually used to use Kindred as an adc for a while. You had 2 people you could mark with your passive so there were fun mind games with that, the scuttle on your side could be a target and you could plan around it with your jungler if you could get a Hank or push the wave, and it usually only took 1 kill to get things rolling. Yea it was cheesy and any game that went long only meant I had damage, but it was super fun 😂
Kindred adc was probably some of the most fun I had playing an auto base adc. I still do it sometimes just because I would do well enough and I felt stronger then most adcs regardless if that's true or not.
The problem with 'cheese' picks is that only damage matters now. You can have the best enchanter support or tank top or whatever but having another bruiser in the form of a camille support is much more effective since she deals damage and can absorb a lot too. The game needs less damage overall. And to be less snowbally too.
That statement is false. If you have Taric into Camille, she gets straight dogged on. The correct statement is damage is too high to prevent counterplay from coming. For example, Ivern has been broken in competitive, since Moonstone Renewer was added in Season 11. However, his playrate only spiked during Roaming Janna TOP meta and when he got that adjustment with Buff-Sharing. He remains good as a pick, but people have to be willing to learn them. > having another bruiser in the form of camille support is so much more effective That is unless she gets counterpicked by the team. If your ADC has a dash or self-peel, Camille is worthless. If your Enchanter Support is "the best," they'll just flip the trade and cripple the engage (Lulu Polymorph, Renata Q + W, Soraka Silence) or just win through neutral. It sounds more like a positioning issue, if Camille is even able to snowball on you. Just avoid the damn walls, lmao?
@@omegaminoseer4539 You're talking from a pro play perspective, i'm talking from a regular player perspective. Once the game start snowballing there is nothing to be done, i'm not saying there is no counterplay to camille support, what i'm saying is that won't happen in a regular game, or not often. I did win games against her, maybe she was bad or maybe i did well i'm not sure. But that's the issue now, the game is only balanced regarding pro plays, they give 0 fuck about the regular run of the mill player and that makes the game boring for us mere mortals.
I guarentee you if a camille goes into my lulu she has no chance touching my adc... The champ is super reliant on getting a lead and roaming because she really isn't strong damage/tankiness
Still works. Im a vivid Sett support player. Sundered sky into warmogs is really nasty and the new zekes convergence works amazing as well. I love running in. Causing havoc, running out get warmogs and run back in.
Cheese picks can also develop when a champion is more suited for 1 lane. For instance I used Taric top at one point because all I was facing top was tanks and at the time all there was bot was long range supports like Zyra and lux.
The comment about flex picks at 12:56 is so real. Camille Support becoming popular for a while made it very difficult to determine what runes I should take for my Top lane matchup. 😢
Also, we always have to remember that due to their risky nature, they end up with the reputation of being: The enemy one is going to get turbo fed while ours is going to turbo feed.
in the support community, mage supports (velkoz, brand, zyra, xerath) are considered to be cheese picks. they’re like our version of ranged top. mage supports are popular because they abuse enchanters poor early game and tanks poor range. they grant their adc a good aggro lane and easy access to farm, but they fall off after 15 minutes if they’re not fed kills. mage supports either take over the game if they successfully cheese the lane and get tons of kills. however, if they go even against an enchanter or tank support - they won’t be able to get the items they need to scale and then offer the team no utility or peel.
Mage supports are generally what happens when a mid laner can’t CS or someone got auto filled to be fair. May aswell just call them a second bot laner since the only thing they support is their wallets
Zyra has godmode CC though, even if behind, and liandries does enough damage in team fights even if she doesn't get any kills. Personally I main Neeko support, and it's pretty much because AP supports get to play the game even when they get a shit ADC, something that's not true for tanks or enchanters.
@@KungKokkosZyra CC isn't really god level. Both CC spells require set up to be consistent to the point I've seen Zyra E plants be recommended as a better source of CC for her team than the E root itself due to it's wind-up and slow projectile speed. Where Zyra support succeeds is control, akin to an easier Shaco support. Zyra has the second longest auto range in the game to poke people with early, and her Plants make applying spell effects like Rylai's and Liandries a breeze which can cause a ton of disruption in mid/late game team fights where people get poked by random stuff all the time.
@@WyvernKnightBright 575 auto range isnt the second longest auto attack range, not even in the support role, but i give to you that the only ones that actively surpass her range are weird supports like Ashe or Annie, or a Seraphine with the passive charged
As a person who plays exclusively Yorick mid with comet who’s entire game plan is to not allow the opponent to play while I hyper farm and am like 2 items above everyone: He he ho ho
When I first started playing league at the start of s12 I loved Warwick but didn't like playing in the jungle so I tried him in the top lane and I steamrolled first 3 games, then instead of playing bruiser I just went full on-hit with tear so it later builds into manamune, I miss old iterations of rageblade
I have no idea why he considers WW Top a cheese pick. According to his own definition Warwick is an excellent toplaner. I myself really enjoy the variety of options WW has. You can go full AP if your team lacks magic damage, build on-hit for best sustained DPS, full-on tank for initiation or anything in-between.
@@Minecraft52628this is the issue with the league community honestly 💀 Considering you have replies to a bunch of random comments with toxicity may I advise you touch grass? If you can’t remember what it looks like it’s a green color kinda looks like fur grows outside
@@Minecraft52628 that’s nice unfortunately you stated and I quote “sounds like copium” to a comment stating cheese picks feel like your team feeds the enemy team is fed. Toxicity can be defined as negative behaviour which id argue you’re doing here buddy. But please explain yourself better than “no you”
He says tristana mid gives up map tempo when compared to slayers, but she participates in Dragon fights in a very similar way to Talon because she can often rocket jump in and bomb a target the way talon leaps in and bursts a target, although her damage is a little bit more over time. So I won't say she has the same map tempo as say Talon or Zed, but she does have decent map tempo like at least 7/10 map tempo.
Tbh.. can you even call her a cheese pick? She's just OP in the role. In pro play she's consistently picked over any mage, so how can this be a "cheese pick" whenever literal pros are choosing it over the traditional pick?
@chummyfudge8988 Well Vars did mention at the start of Tristanas section that calling her a cheese pick in the current state of the game might not be accurate due to her pick rate, but moreso over the whole games history. Don't take this as a defense of mid Tristana from me, when it's strong its maybe my least favorite lane matchup to play.
@@aydenbonnet9630 Just pick Twitch or vayne teach her who is boss at lvl 6. When you ult as twitch or vayne vs tristana you have the bigger salami 9 out of 10 times.
@LukeChudoba Right, that sounds great on paper until you factor in that both Twitch, and Vayne have way less safety in a solo lane compared to Trist, and the enemy Jungler turns you into an all you can eat buffet.
As someone who has dabble in the art of cheesing (shout out assassin support) I will say there should always be a place for this type of strategy, the issue is people in this game are too rigid and have highly inflated egos. So they either want the perfect set up or disregard anything that they haven't seen working cause they lack experience with it.
My cheese (was better than any meta pick, though I have stopped playing around 2021): Skarner support (before recent changes) Jax support (before recent changes) Miss Fortune support Malzahar top (any champ without mobility just goes afk) Heimerdinger top (melee champs simply rage-quit 100% of time) Fiddlesticks support (before and after changes) Shaco mid AP Urgot top Teemo support Warwick support Brand support Nidalee top Kennen dps Lillia top (another bane of melee champions) Maokai mid Nunu support (before rework) Ornn support Rammus top (bane of all physical damage dealing champions) Renekton mid Shen support Wukong support (only viable after getting R) All of them work really well not only because of their kits, but also because enemy team have no idea how to play around them.
Most people don’t look at it like this Iv found but it’s just “you ether die the anti meta or live long enough to see yourself become the meta.” And the thing is that is true in every game not just league
i just pick something with mobility next to her and i either make sure she can't get rid of me (riven, yone, sett) or she can't touch me (xerath, aurora, brand)
12:25 I wouldnt say camile is soley for cheesing lane! Her pressure at contesting objectives and roaming can help get other lanes ahead too and actually provides crazy utility with her ult imo
I reached GM last split from D2 by playing nothing but Tryndamere mid. 100% better than top. You can impact the map and farm for free while diving everybody. No mage can kill you with your q ,d shield and second wind. My favourite pick of all time
Warwick top does amazing into ranged champs. True that 1-5 is tough, but Warwick's sustain is enough so even through their poke you can stay alive. His toughest matchups are against champs like panth, who have a very strong all in, and an execute on low Hp.
This vid does a great job of explaining why people don't like them, but IMHO cheese picks should NEVER ever be disallowed, the more roles more champs can fit into the better objectively imo, it makes the game much much more interesting and helps you play champs you truly love even if you don't get the role you want in draft. It's why my favorites tend to be champs like Zac who fit all 3 roles I like to play (supp, top and jungle). This is one way I've always thought Dota outshined League, too; there are definitely many champs that feel more intended for one side of the spectrum of the other, but for the most part, any character can play any role.
Absolute cheese and it's miserable to play against one that knows how to use boxes properly but it's a cheese pick I kinda respect because instead of doing ad/ap damage it does psychic damage
I really like them, unless they are meta, it was fun picking trist mid now and then, but when its meta its boring to see her always, on the other hand, vw top and camil supp, same as lucian mid and other pics are fun to play, to play with and against, you are facing something you have never experienced before and you are learning by doing, the most fun thing to do unless you are stupid and want to have guarantee win, which is option too and this person could be ruining it for you, what a shame its actually just a game
Tristana's fallback to losing lane is just perma splitting, same as any decent top lane pick nowadays. You either divert people to go and stop the split thereby losing someone potentially important for teamfights, or you ignore her for 30 seconds and lose a full tower. As for camille support, you can int lane away but if you start to just split and get items odds are you'll be able to kill anyone mid-late game that tries to deny your split.
Hey Vars, Your videos have been very helpful:) I have a thought about Slayer in top-lane and want your opinion on it So lately I got to learn about the classes and it gave me a better understanding of the game. What is more, I decided to learn Dota to get a better grasp of the fundamentals of MOBAs. In Dota, position 3 plays in the off-lane, which is Top-Lane in league, where the champion is supposed to survive while trying to farm to be useful later on, and farm is not as a high priority as position 1&2 (adc and mid). That requires a champion that could survive during the laning phase. If we apply these principles to league, it feels like the Slayer class is bad in top. Slayers will be facing Fighters and Tanks which is not a favorable matchup for them as they won't burst these durable classes. Furthermore, they will not be of value throughout the game as there will already be DPS in mid & adc, having another squishy in top-lane will make it hard for the team to engage in fights and easier for the enemy to make quick picks. They will fall behind hard if they get ganked or when they lose tier 1 tower. The only value they could give is split pushing and that would be viable only if they get fed during the laning phase. What do you think about this?
tbh the MOST cheese pick is sylas sup cuz u have ur e and d that at lvl 1 are STUPIDLY strong against a squishy adc and u stun AND u heal AND u can steal enemy ults like stuns or pyke r AND u have great roaming to help out mid or jg AND u dont need items like u would think cuz u back after ur kill and get dark seal eventualy into mejais and thats 160 ap
I'm keep it a buck 50 with you. The way I see it. Any champion can be put into any role with enough grindset and mindset. as long as you don't break set up of "1 player top, 1 player jungle, 1 player mid, 2 players bot" And as long as you don't bring champions like Yuumi into jungle. if you do that, go crazy. Unknown, irregular, abnormal champion picks are good for the game. it's how we solve meta's and develop new ones without riot pushing for minor stat changes.
I feel like the game wouldn't be nearly as interesting without viable cheese picks. Being able to play a character in multiple roles makes them interesting.
It would've been interesting to make a distinction between off-meta picks and cheese picks. For some people (including me), the most fun in this game is exploring new builds and roles, and to defy people's expectations often with humorous outcomes - not trying to climb to some arbitrary rank or to win as hard as possible.
Have been using Warwick Top as a one trick pony ever since season 2, without any regrets and laughing what a counterpick he has always been for tank top laners and also mant bruisers. Also the fact that people still to this day think WW is phisical instead of magic damage has been a blessing to climb elo and win lanes.
I went up against a Camille support somewhat recently and smashed her with Taliyah support. Cheese picks ONLY work if the enemy doesn't know how to counter them. The biggest strength of cheese picks are also their biggest weakness - do the other players know how to work with or against the pick? However, cheese picks can be super fun. My duo and I run Morde bot and it's surprising how often we win it because the enemy doesn't know what to do. Fun for normals, enraging for ranked games.
yo vars i love your videos but always felt like the sound is bass boosted as fuck. not sure why that is as i'm not a sound engineer, just something you might want to look into. other than that amazing work much love :*
the indescribable feeling when your favorite champ is mentioned in a vars video for the ~3rd time ever since the channel was created anyways, imo cheese picks should stay in the game, since theyre not absolutely gamebreaking (or maybe they are if every single condition required is met), but can be fun and interesting in casual games, plus whether you want it or not, youll learn something from that game which is a W in my book
Pretty good video but I think you misunderstand why tristana's so oppressive and hated in mid. She doesn't lack a fallback, she has one of the most obnoxiously strong fallbacks in the game. She doesn't have to win lane, she can splitpush all game due to her insane tower-taking power. She can outvalue a ton of midlaners while losing lane by just taking towers all game. Her average first tower take speed is literally unmatched, being the fastest in midlane excluding ziggs, who is... ziggs. And obviously she's not just gonna be getting one tower most of the time.
Just on this day, my team played against Tristan top or mid 4 times, and each time she took the towers quickly and won the lane, and I ended up losing 3 games out of 4, but what can I say skill diff all Tristan player so good just wow riot
Some cheese picks are just knowledge checks or system issues. Camille support was both. You could buy a dorans item and a support item, so you'd build doran's sword, cheese a kill, then buy sup item. But also, camile's dash has to go to a wall then to you. It gets hard countered by throwing any cc projectile at the wall shes going to. Morgana, Lux, Zyra, and Hwei all make camille sup practically useless so now you only see it in counterpick situations to enchanters, but right now mages also counter enchanters and have better items so its a lot less viable.
I can't even lie, I'm a ww top otp and honestly it is the most fun thing in the world, but tbh the champ outside of lane really only has two viable playstyles, autoattack bruiser that becomes useless in teamfights or splitpush tank that also has a lot of cc and peel
4:15 oh right forgot why a good bit of lifesteal is reduced on minions, lifesteal is supposed to encourge engenging in fights by being rewarded for aggression, same lifesteal application on minions removes that point, bevause the enemy relies more on easy to damage targets than engange with champions. So: 50% effective against Minions.
A strong measure is this: if, at champ select, the only optimal strategy to win laning phase against them is "sacrifice your laning phase to avoid engaging them", it's a cheese pick.
It's understandable if Trist mid is hated, but as a mid main who really likes to play ADCs, it's quite nice. I was very sad to see Lucian mid go, all these years ago and now Tristana doesn't do well in that role either. On one hand Riot pushes diverse picks by making more champs jungle viable, but the second an ADC can go mid, it's illegal.
Mind you Taric top is not actually "Cheese" they did say when they reworked him they were going to keep his sololane aspect. He should although get a sololane treatment like Pyke and others got.
WW top is honestly his best role I don't know how that counts as a cheese pick. He can short trade infinitely with his passive and has very low risk dives with his self healing at low HP allowing him to survive 3-4 turret shots provided you hit minions on your way out and W giving you a massive attack and move speed boost against low HP enemies. Tiamat also builds into both Titanic and Stridebreaker which are amazing for WW and solve any waveclear issues after your first recall. The cheese is taking barrier instead of TP and becoming useless past the laning phase because you don't know how to short trade and want to all in like a mongrel. Late game he can build bruiser and either split or make picks for his team and chase down stragglers with his W. WW jungle on the other hand is a complete meme, slow as sin first clear A.K.A. most important clear, W active gives away your position, mediocre potential for ganks, terrible at fighting objectives, a passive that does literally nothing because jungle item keeps your health full and you cannot split push to force 1v1's because you have to take Smite and your clear speed stays slow because you'll have to build tank for teamfights or you'll get blown up without barrier acting as a band-aid if you build damage items.
With Warwick it depends how he is played. Players like H0rnlime use him with TP and Ghost and opt for a tanky splitpush strategy with hullbreaker that works better into lategame and opens up more plays around the map.
My thoughts are that cheese picks should be allowed so long as they're not going against the core fantasy of the character. Like back when that Garen-Yuumi bot lane was a thing where Yuumi built damage and Garen was just her car, that went against the core fantasy of Garen basically being your Fighter Man or straightforward paladin type. Arguably Sett support also went against his fantasy as a gritty pit fighter who's literally itching for a fight, not itching to help out a stronger ally. By comparison, Tristana's character fantasy of simply being a small girl with a big gun and bigger explosions fits on mid, arguably it fits on mid better than on bot because mid's wave management is all about how good you are at pushing the wave and that fits her personality and fantasy better than the more careful management of bot. Top Warwick is a bit more debatable as his fantasy is hunting, moving through the map at top speed following the scent of blood, which he does less on top. Of course, it gives him pretty excellent roam for a top laner, but is that enough to hit his character fantasy? Personally I think it is, but I can easily see arguments that it isn't.
Reminds me of my friends annie support back in the day. He always got flamed for doing it but almost always stomped the lane and usually the match. This woulda been like season 3-4
Taric Top was AMAZING with Navori and even more so with a good jungle in the VC and with precision runes. I just need to build full armor after Navori and take runes that Regen mana and I output absurd amounts of damage in a 1v1 But since Navori is AS instead of AD, it's not as valuable sadly
cheese keeps the game interesting by creating new ways to think and play the game, the fact that riot doesn't get this with consitently nerfing strats like funneling into the ground, rather than trying to bring said strat to roughly the same power as the older strats (or buffing the older strats up to the cheese strats power) shows riot doesn't understand this.
I disagree with you totally on this. These picks should almost NEVER be removed from the game, they make the game feel fresh and not as monotonous as it is most of the time. They bring nothing but more diversity to ALL ROLES and if they are too strong they should be nerfed, not removed from the role.
Unless the whole game devolves into one strategy, for me, it is OK and healthy to have any champion viable in any role. If it works, it works. If there is no counter to that strategy, or the game becomes small because of that (only 30 champions have presence), then they should go.
As a Camille support player, her w, hookshot, and r are being extremely underestimated here. W slow is so useful when chasing, hookshot is by far one of the best cc abilities in the game, but the R is just genuinely broken. Played correctly it is as effective if not more than a Gragas R, you can divide the team cancel channels, lock down a carry, etc, she offers more in support tbh than she ever will in top lane.
Oddly enough you picked prob the most played "off meta" support pick. Though it isn't anywhere as strong as gragas R. I also think champs like briar, nasus, sylas have alot of potential among others
@@Minecraft52628 It is objectively much stronger than gragas R purely supportively. I do also play Sylas support as well and agree that it's very good but not as good as Camille.
I like to play Ivern and Nunu top Both are mainly based on the team understanding you can stun enemies and manage the flow of the battle like that, but you don't have a lot of damage So if my team is one of those "pick strong champions and brainlessly go all in", we lose 💀
Cheese is the name given by some people to strategies that they don't like. "No, that's not how you're supposed to play the game, stop it! I don't like it!" Know your strategy weaknesses and strengths and thus its win condition. I don't like to play following the meta, to me that seems cheap and cheesy. But that's just because my main is weak and I envy the power of the meta.
Honestly.. I'd prefer them to go back to their own originally intended lanes. I shouldn't have to worry about losing first tower just because someone wants to bring trist into mid lane. Mid lane should be about rotating to help other lanes not staying in lane and abusing this window. Turret destroyers have no place in mid. Keep that in top. They're on an island anyway. They need the resources to get off of that island. ~~btw I'm a mage mid main. There is no turret destroying capabilities until late game :v~~
Ah yes, because everyone loves when Karma/Lulu/Janna make it into other lanes. Super interactive, fun gameplay. Cheese picks are only funny when it's a 1-off thing, not when it becomes the meta (looking at you Tristana).
I'm a masters Camille onetrick. I have 7 years of experience with the champ. Playing adc when I can't top. I got auto filled two months ago to support and I heard people played it. So I did. And oh my you are a threat if you have mechanics. No body have matchup KNOWLEGDE against the elite cam onetrick as botlaners. You in ironically zone ppl and can dive them early. Your roams are dangerous ASF. Hail of blades. So you can fight for your team. I take over the games with it. I think I won 18 games straight because my girlfriend knows what I do and samiras into teams with me.
What I really want them to do is add a few more clear counters to very oppressive mechanics like huge mobility. Add an item that inflicts grounded or something, mobility is too important and too prevalent. I kind of like cheese picks as long as they actually at least try to do their role. If someone wants to be Darius support, be my guest, but please actually support and don't steal ADC farm. Nowadays it feels as if 'Oh you didn't pick one of the meta champs? Well if we lose it's your fault but if we win it's not your contribution that counts'. The fact that there even is a meta in a PvP game is incredibly stupid.
![[MV] A leap of faith...ความเชื่อใจครั้งสุดท้าย (From "Petrichor the series")](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/U1piZH2CNXA/mqdefault.jpg)
remember folks, a warwick with at least 1 hp is a warwick with full hp
Any HP other than the last one doesn't matter
@@galactick3816 "i bought the whole hp bar, i'm gonna use the whole hp bar"
That's because there is no Warwick above 50% HP.
If you've played him you know exactly how it feels.
@@VergiliosSpatulasespecially when you get the sweet spot where each auto barely gets you enough heal to survive shit hits diff
Not if he's against garen with his ult up
It's a crime Karma top isn't here
Right!
I was expecting Lulu top tbh 💀
I think he was specifically looking for those still considered viable in the given role right now. Karma pretty quickly gets nerfs once she becomes commons place outside of support.
Prob some kinda of trauma that his memory tried to supress
Vars forgets Karma exists, just check his empower abilities video lmao
warwick top legit made me hate barrier more than i hate some champions
its amazing how antiheal is so accessible yet there's only one antishield in the game and it's assassin exclusive
@@lillyie *ad assasins, to be clear. Why would they delete ap antishield item for fok sake..
@@lillyie ikr? And it doesn't synergize well if bruisers and it's an AD item so mages can't use it, we had Shadowflame but for some reason they got rid of the anti shield part in favor of, you guessed it! ...More damage.... Fucking sucks, especially when they have shield spammers like karma and Lulu.
@@ConfettiBerg shadowflame was a mess, giving you 0-10 magic pen against shields which is literally nothing. Thats not even remotely close to an anti shield item
Idk how Tristana counts as a "cheese" pick when for the last month the only champs being played mid/top in high elo are trist corki Lucian
One time I was playing with some friends and I wanted to try Camille support, but we drafted full ad and the enemy team last picked malphite
It was funny how the Camille support was the only one who could actually deal damage to the 1k armor malph
Well done. You just found out how true damage works
Rock solid
was this before or after they removed divine sunderer.
@@ericlin7775 men, camille support didnt worked when divine sunderer existed, is something that started with the rework of the sup items on this season
Fun fact: AP J4 Support has been played in high level pro play 38 times, with 20 wins vs 18 losses. Only counting major regions, this is 26 times with 15 wins vs 11 losses, 15 from Korea alone with 9 wins vs 6 losses.
In what season was that? Simply marvelous
I remember drx with ziggs + ap J4 bot so much poke xD
@@nikolenico167 I'm wondering the same thing haha
Tristana used to be a cheese pick, now she’s just overpowered. Used to be if you didn’t respect her all in at lvl 2 was about the only way you could lose to her. Now she’s basically impossible to kill thanks to bone plate and absorb life, and she basically always gets first tower.
Grubs have been huge for her. Her wave clear has always been insanely good because of her e passive, and the bomb does insane damage to tower. Pairing that with demolish and a few grubs means you cannot leave lane under any circumstances or you’re losing at least two plates. I think what makes Tristana kinda cheesy is she’s a character with insane tower push in a role where that’s very uncommon. That makes her really hard to punish because even if you’re winning lane in the traditional sense, more cs, a couple solo kills, she’s probably caught up with all the plate gold she’s gotten.
I think trist mid was fine in a world before tower plates but if they wanna keep her mid flex now, especially with grubs in the game, they need to reduce her e damage to turrets, otherwise she’s just gonna be toxic if she’s ever viable.
I agree looking at pro play and just playing the game tris wasn't like Warwick or camelie where it had to be win lane lose Game she did Hella damage while also being a split pushing monster with any grub she more akin to a mage bot laner then a chess pick
@@CalamitygreedMages bot is still generally speaking a cheese pick. They function because their opponents(enemy botlaner) has no clue how to deal with them, not because they’re inherently OP. We saw a bit of Ziggs and Seraphine botlane in pro play, but else you have to go many years back before mages bot actually was meta in high mmr and pro play.
To play against Tristana, you need more range than her. I found great success playing Vel Koz into her, I think Xerath will work to, especially if you hold your stun for her engage
Interesting she got rayyyyped in bot lane. From near last year a s tier adc to a troll pick essentially.
I can still do shit bot because I grinded with her for seasons and she my favorite ad... whatever she did mid she is super nerfed bot lane... I have to ban paisa every game and then 6 other ads and their support combo I'm already behind from 000 lma9
@@danf7411 That’s a pretty big failing on riot’s part. The people that want to play her can’t and the people that don’t are forced to.
I love your mention of what is "cheese picks" in League of Legends, and comparing it to what it means in Dota
In Dota 2, a "cheese pick" is exclusively referring to a last pick hero that is useless in 90% of games, unless specifically last picked when the enemy have no innate counters already drafted:
This includes Meepo and Broodmother (1v9 if the enemy have low lockdown or AOE clear), huskar (if they lack burst physical damage and antiheal) and Nyx Assassin (if all the other team's draft are squishy mages), alongside others. It's not about playing a hero in an off-meta way, it's playing a hero into a draft that didn't cover its weaknesses enough.
I feel like your definition fits best with the term. All Vars example sound like off meta pick that happens to not get nerfed by the mercy of Riot. These off meta are chosen by the fact that the enemy didn't expect to see them in that role.
That just sounds like normal draft? You pick a champ that is good for the situation you are in and either abuse a mistake in draft by your opponent or cover roles that your teammates havent. As example i dont pick Poppy support often but when enemies already picked Zac jng and Leona support i will punish them for their drafting mistake. Similarly i played Ornn support specifically into Blitzcrank Nautilus blocking their hooks and statchecking them in melee range; the pick is unplayable against something like Brand Morgana but good in this situation
@@maciejkleszczynski9808 basically! Cheese picks are the term people use because salty/coping. Dota is way too balanced for off meta to put people off, since meta is constantly evolving.
I learned “cheese” being cannon rushed in Starcraft. I define it as a strategy that relies on your opponent reacting incorrectly to it. It’s basically a strategy where you present the enemy a puzzle and hope they aren’t knowledgeable enough to solve it
@@micahwest3566 Yeah. The difference between "cheese pick" in DotA and SC compared to Lol is the cheese picks are used to punish your opponents for making mistakes. You'd beat him anyway with the meta builds but you picked the cheese picks to further seal his fate. Cheese picks in lol can often beat you even when you are not making any mistakes in your build choice aka they are becoming meta.
Love how “slayers can engage on them if they misposition” is being said while zed is just towerdiving a tf who’s full health under turret 😂
Any position is bad position against Zed... or even worse, Trynda xD
one thing I love about league is the countless viable picks and playstyles you can choose from. it makes every game feel unique and refreshing.
i love picking pantheon support against enchanter matchups and watch them flame me in chat for the warcrime i commited
@@lillyie try playing sylas support and use the enemy support's ult against them, they'll hate you fs afterwards
Countless? You see the same champions all the time and whoever gets first blood gets to snowball and win. The game is as stale as it gets.
Are you serious or trolling right now?
True.
I actually used to use Kindred as an adc for a while. You had 2 people you could mark with your passive so there were fun mind games with that, the scuttle on your side could be a target and you could plan around it with your jungler if you could get a Hank or push the wave, and it usually only took 1 kill to get things rolling. Yea it was cheesy and any game that went long only meant I had damage, but it was super fun 😂
Kindred adc was probably some of the most fun I had playing an auto base adc. I still do it sometimes just because I would do well enough and I felt stronger then most adcs regardless if that's true or not.
The problem with 'cheese' picks is that only damage matters now. You can have the best enchanter support or tank top or whatever but having another bruiser in the form of a camille support is much more effective since she deals damage and can absorb a lot too. The game needs less damage overall. And to be less snowbally too.
Stat checkers so you gotta work with your team more which is good and bad
That statement is false. If you have Taric into Camille, she gets straight dogged on. The correct statement is damage is too high to prevent counterplay from coming. For example, Ivern has been broken in competitive, since Moonstone Renewer was added in Season 11. However, his playrate only spiked during Roaming Janna TOP meta and when he got that adjustment with Buff-Sharing. He remains good as a pick, but people have to be willing to learn them.
> having another bruiser in the form of camille support is so much more effective
That is unless she gets counterpicked by the team. If your ADC has a dash or self-peel, Camille is worthless. If your Enchanter Support is "the best," they'll just flip the trade and cripple the engage (Lulu Polymorph, Renata Q + W, Soraka Silence) or just win through neutral. It sounds more like a positioning issue, if Camille is even able to snowball on you. Just avoid the damn walls, lmao?
@@omegaminoseer4539 You're talking from a pro play perspective, i'm talking from a regular player perspective. Once the game start snowballing there is nothing to be done, i'm not saying there is no counterplay to camille support, what i'm saying is that won't happen in a regular game, or not often. I did win games against her, maybe she was bad or maybe i did well i'm not sure.
But that's the issue now, the game is only balanced regarding pro plays, they give 0 fuck about the regular run of the mill player and that makes the game boring for us mere mortals.
@@Nartanek You're so confidently wrong it's amazing.
I guarentee you if a camille goes into my lulu she has no chance touching my adc... The champ is super reliant on getting a lead and roaming because she really isn't strong damage/tankiness
I just love me some cheese
Parmesan, Mozzarella, Mid Tristana, all delicious
I still remember the days I went Sett support, "oh you're hitting the support? have half of your hp as true damage"
this is when I pull out Shen support and ignore the sett.
Oh you still want to hit my adc? W cuck
Still works. Im a vivid Sett support player. Sundered sky into warmogs is really nasty and the new zekes convergence works amazing as well.
I love running in. Causing havoc, running out get warmogs and run back in.
Cheese picks can also develop when a champion is more suited for 1 lane. For instance I used Taric top at one point because all I was facing top was tanks and at the time all there was bot was long range supports like Zyra and lux.
The comment about flex picks at 12:56 is so real. Camille Support becoming popular for a while made it very difficult to determine what runes I should take for my Top lane matchup. 😢
Also, we always have to remember that due to their risky nature, they end up with the reputation of being: The enemy one is going to get turbo fed while ours is going to turbo feed.
sounds like copium
i call that "Yasuo Effect"
in the support community, mage supports (velkoz, brand, zyra, xerath) are considered to be cheese picks. they’re like our version of ranged top.
mage supports are popular because they abuse enchanters poor early game and tanks poor range. they grant their adc a good aggro lane and easy access to farm, but they fall off after 15 minutes if they’re not fed kills.
mage supports either take over the game if they successfully cheese the lane and get tons of kills. however, if they go even against an enchanter or tank support - they won’t be able to get the items they need to scale and then offer the team no utility or peel.
Mage supports are generally what happens when a mid laner can’t CS or someone got auto filled to be fair. May aswell just call them a second bot laner since the only thing they support is their wallets
Zyra has godmode CC though, even if behind, and liandries does enough damage in team fights even if she doesn't get any kills.
Personally I main Neeko support, and it's pretty much because AP supports get to play the game even when they get a shit ADC, something that's not true for tanks or enchanters.
@@KungKokkosZyra CC isn't really god level. Both CC spells require set up to be consistent to the point I've seen Zyra E plants be recommended as a better source of CC for her team than the E root itself due to it's wind-up and slow projectile speed.
Where Zyra support succeeds is control, akin to an easier Shaco support. Zyra has the second longest auto range in the game to poke people with early, and her Plants make applying spell effects like Rylai's and Liandries a breeze which can cause a ton of disruption in mid/late game team fights where people get poked by random stuff all the time.
@@WyvernKnightBright 575 auto range isnt the second longest auto attack range, not even in the support role, but i give to you that the only ones that actively surpass her range are weird supports like Ashe or Annie, or a Seraphine with the passive charged
As a person who plays exclusively Yorick mid with comet who’s entire game plan is to not allow the opponent to play while I hyper farm and am like 2 items above everyone:
He he ho ho
When I first started playing league at the start of s12 I loved Warwick but didn't like playing in the jungle so I tried him in the top lane and I steamrolled first 3 games, then instead of playing bruiser I just went full on-hit with tear so it later builds into manamune, I miss old iterations of rageblade
I have no idea why he considers WW Top a cheese pick. According to his own definition Warwick is an excellent toplaner.
I myself really enjoy the variety of options WW has. You can go full AP if your team lacks magic damage, build on-hit for best sustained DPS, full-on tank for initiation or anything in-between.
@@MrLuzakmanuntil u face kench
Everything should be allowed, if my team want to go lulu top, janna mid, sonna bot and seraphine support, ill choose yummi jungle. Its just a game.
Ok theres a limit thats just ff 15 comp
@@Minecraft52628this is the issue with the league community honestly 💀
Considering you have replies to a bunch of random comments with toxicity may I advise you touch grass? If you can’t remember what it looks like it’s a green color kinda looks like fur grows outside
@@theveganduolingobird7349 I suggest you learn the definition of toxicity since the only one being toxic here is you oddly enough
@@Minecraft52628 that’s nice unfortunately you stated and I quote “sounds like copium” to a comment stating cheese picks feel like your team feeds the enemy team is fed. Toxicity can be defined as negative behaviour which id argue you’re doing here buddy. But please explain yourself better than “no you”
@@theveganduolingobird7349 Seems more like your mental state where you are just perceiving far more toxicity and less able to handle any of it
He says tristana mid gives up map tempo when compared to slayers, but she participates in Dragon fights in a very similar way to Talon because she can often rocket jump in and bomb a target the way talon leaps in and bursts a target, although her damage is a little bit more over time. So I won't say she has the same map tempo as say Talon or Zed, but she does have decent map tempo like at least 7/10 map tempo.
Tbh.. can you even call her a cheese pick? She's just OP in the role. In pro play she's consistently picked over any mage, so how can this be a "cheese pick" whenever literal pros are choosing it over the traditional pick?
@chummyfudge8988 Well Vars did mention at the start of Tristanas section that calling her a cheese pick in the current state of the game might not be accurate due to her pick rate, but moreso over the whole games history. Don't take this as a defense of mid Tristana from me, when it's strong its maybe my least favorite lane matchup to play.
@@aydenbonnet9630 Just pick Twitch or vayne teach her who is boss at lvl 6. When you ult as twitch or vayne vs tristana you have the bigger salami 9 out of 10 times.
Trist mid isnt a cheese pick, thats trist's main lane
@LukeChudoba Right, that sounds great on paper until you factor in that both Twitch, and Vayne have way less safety in a solo lane compared to Trist, and the enemy Jungler turns you into an all you can eat buffet.
As someone who has dabble in the art of cheesing (shout out assassin support) I will say there should always be a place for this type of strategy, the issue is people in this game are too rigid and have highly inflated egos. So they either want the perfect set up or disregard anything that they haven't seen working cause they lack experience with it.
In regards to assassins: Elise support is fun. I'm not very good at it, but it's a fun pick.
meanwhile pyke
Back when i used to main jinx mid lol, would just basically push it down the whole game , even while we were behind, oh no enemy base is wide open!
I love cheese picks, they are so much fun and "unecspecteds", changing the way all the role are played.
My cheese (was better than any meta pick, though I have stopped playing around 2021):
Skarner support (before recent changes)
Jax support (before recent changes)
Miss Fortune support
Malzahar top (any champ without mobility just goes afk)
Heimerdinger top (melee champs simply rage-quit 100% of time)
Fiddlesticks support (before and after changes)
Shaco mid
AP Urgot top
Teemo support
Warwick support
Brand support
Nidalee top
Kennen dps
Lillia top (another bane of melee champions)
Maokai mid
Nunu support (before rework)
Ornn support
Rammus top (bane of all physical damage dealing champions)
Renekton mid
Shen support
Wukong support (only viable after getting R)
All of them work really well not only because of their kits, but also because enemy team have no idea how to play around them.
Most people don’t look at it like this Iv found but it’s just “you ether die the anti meta or live long enough to see yourself become the meta.” And the thing is that is true in every game not just league
i'm happy to see huzzy in this, one of the og creators and still pumping out content daily
yeah, was nice seeing him show up.
Trist mid has grown from cheese pick into full blown meta
i just pick something with mobility next to her and i either make sure she can't get rid of me (riven, yone, sett) or she can't touch me (xerath, aurora, brand)
Ate a block of cheese for every time you said cheese in this video. Feeling gouda
12:25 I wouldnt say camile is soley for cheesing lane! Her pressure at contesting objectives and roaming can help get other lanes ahead too and actually provides crazy utility with her ult imo
Cheese picks are just flex picks that don't have the backing research papers.
Camille support is my highest WR% supp atm. Getting rid of the enemy ADC for 30 seconds is the strongest CC
I reached GM last split from D2 by playing nothing but Tryndamere mid. 100% better than top. You can impact the map and farm for free while diving everybody. No mage can kill you with your q ,d shield and second wind. My favourite pick of all time
Thank you for the video. I know you started Pokemon videos now but i hope you'll keep league videos coming ❤
Warwick top does amazing into ranged champs. True that 1-5 is tough, but Warwick's sustain is enough so even through their poke you can stay alive. His toughest matchups are against champs like panth, who have a very strong all in, and an execute on low Hp.
Any day when Vars releases a video is a good day
This vid does a great job of explaining why people don't like them, but IMHO cheese picks should NEVER ever be disallowed, the more roles more champs can fit into the better objectively imo, it makes the game much much more interesting and helps you play champs you truly love even if you don't get the role you want in draft. It's why my favorites tend to be champs like Zac who fit all 3 roles I like to play (supp, top and jungle). This is one way I've always thought Dota outshined League, too; there are definitely many champs that feel more intended for one side of the spectrum of the other, but for the most part, any character can play any role.
I know it was mentioned in a cheese video but shaco support is so fun
Absolute cheese and it's miserable to play against one that knows how to use boxes properly but it's a cheese pick I kinda respect because instead of doing ad/ap damage it does psychic damage
I really like them, unless they are meta, it was fun picking trist mid now and then, but when its meta its boring to see her always, on the other hand, vw top and camil supp, same as lucian mid and other pics are fun to play, to play with and against, you are facing something you have never experienced before and you are learning by doing, the most fun thing to do unless you are stupid and want to have guarantee win, which is option too and this person could be ruining it for you, what a shame its actually just a game
Me who played Lillia mid for an entire season: Gary look there I am!
I do love when my Camile supp does 1k true damage to the enemy adc so I can just ult and kill XD
Tristana's fallback to losing lane is just perma splitting, same as any decent top lane pick nowadays. You either divert people to go and stop the split thereby losing someone potentially important for teamfights, or you ignore her for 30 seconds and lose a full tower. As for camille support, you can int lane away but if you start to just split and get items odds are you'll be able to kill anyone mid-late game that tries to deny your split.
id be amazed if the camille support has the gold/exp to kill but def splitable
Hey Vars,
Your videos have been very helpful:)
I have a thought about Slayer in top-lane and want your opinion on it
So lately I got to learn about the classes and it gave me a better understanding of the game. What is more, I decided to learn Dota to get a better grasp of the fundamentals of MOBAs. In Dota, position 3 plays in the off-lane, which is Top-Lane in league, where the champion is supposed to survive while trying to farm to be useful later on, and farm is not as a high priority as position 1&2 (adc and mid). That requires a champion that could survive during the laning phase.
If we apply these principles to league, it feels like the Slayer class is bad in top. Slayers will be facing Fighters and Tanks which is not a favorable matchup for them as they won't burst these durable classes. Furthermore, they will not be of value throughout the game as there will already be DPS in mid & adc, having another squishy in top-lane will make it hard for the team to engage in fights and easier for the enemy to make quick picks. They will fall behind hard if they get ganked or when they lose tier 1 tower.
The only value they could give is split pushing and that would be viable only if they get fed during the laning phase.
What do you think about this?
tbh the MOST cheese pick is sylas sup cuz u have ur e and d that at lvl 1 are STUPIDLY strong against a squishy adc and u stun AND u heal AND u can steal enemy ults like stuns or pyke r AND u have great roaming to help out mid or jg AND u dont need items like u would think cuz u back after ur kill and get dark seal eventualy into mejais and thats 160 ap
Facts. You can even go eclipse on sylas on support. It works pretty well in high elo but you cant blind pick it
as someone who regularly plays warwick top the barrier gets them every single time
I'm keep it a buck 50 with you. The way I see it.
Any champion can be put into any role with enough grindset and mindset. as long as you don't break set up of "1 player top, 1 player jungle, 1 player mid, 2 players bot" And as long as you don't bring champions like Yuumi into jungle.
if you do that, go crazy. Unknown, irregular, abnormal champion picks are good for the game. it's how we solve meta's and develop new ones without riot pushing for minor stat changes.
keep them. especially in premades, you can rebalance the team to make up for it, and even create a team comp which the enemies struggle to read.
I feel like the game wouldn't be nearly as interesting without viable cheese picks. Being able to play a character in multiple roles makes them interesting.
It would've been interesting to make a distinction between off-meta picks and cheese picks. For some people (including me), the most fun in this game is exploring new builds and roles, and to defy people's expectations often with humorous outcomes - not trying to climb to some arbitrary rank or to win as hard as possible.
Have been using Warwick Top as a one trick pony ever since season 2, without any regrets and laughing what a counterpick he has always been for tank top laners and also mant bruisers. Also the fact that people still to this day think WW is phisical instead of magic damage has been a blessing to climb elo and win lanes.
I hate cheese picks and the clips I'm in are me playing them lmao... sadly it seems you gotta adapt to them with how strong they've become in LoL
Huzzygames the trist mid enjoyer 😮
you're english, we know you love cheese
you have become what you hate🤣😈
I went up against a Camille support somewhat recently and smashed her with Taliyah support. Cheese picks ONLY work if the enemy doesn't know how to counter them. The biggest strength of cheese picks are also their biggest weakness - do the other players know how to work with or against the pick? However, cheese picks can be super fun. My duo and I run Morde bot and it's surprising how often we win it because the enemy doesn't know what to do.
Fun for normals, enraging for ranked games.
They can fully know how to counter them but if the champ matchup is bad what can you really do
yo vars i love your videos but always felt like the sound is bass boosted as fuck. not sure why that is as i'm not a sound engineer, just something you might want to look into. other than that amazing work much love :*
the indescribable feeling when your favorite champ is mentioned in a vars video for the ~3rd time ever since the channel was created
anyways, imo cheese picks should stay in the game, since theyre not absolutely gamebreaking (or maybe they are if every single condition required is met), but can be fun and interesting in casual games, plus whether you want it or not, youll learn something from that game which is a W in my book
Pretty good video but I think you misunderstand why tristana's so oppressive and hated in mid. She doesn't lack a fallback, she has one of the most obnoxiously strong fallbacks in the game. She doesn't have to win lane, she can splitpush all game due to her insane tower-taking power. She can outvalue a ton of midlaners while losing lane by just taking towers all game. Her average first tower take speed is literally unmatched, being the fastest in midlane excluding ziggs, who is... ziggs. And obviously she's not just gonna be getting one tower most of the time.
Nasus support is my favorite cheese pick. Poke and slow will annoy the other team.
poke, 50% armor shred, slow and cripple(attackspeed slow). Whats not to love
His W straight up turns off an ADC with enough levels
whenever i picked tristana mid i just felt like a dirty cheater, like oh wow i won lane epic that was very hard
Just on this day, my team played against Tristan top or mid 4 times, and each time she took the towers quickly and won the lane, and I ended up losing 3 games out of 4, but what can I say skill diff all Tristan player so good just wow riot
Some cheese picks are just knowledge checks or system issues. Camille support was both. You could buy a dorans item and a support item, so you'd build doran's sword, cheese a kill, then buy sup item. But also, camile's dash has to go to a wall then to you. It gets hard countered by throwing any cc projectile at the wall shes going to. Morgana, Lux, Zyra, and Hwei all make camille sup practically useless so now you only see it in counterpick situations to enchanters, but right now mages also counter enchanters and have better items so its a lot less viable.
shaco support has to be the most disgusting thing ever happened to human kind but I totally respect the players
I can't even lie, I'm a ww top otp and honestly it is the most fun thing in the world, but tbh the champ outside of lane really only has two viable playstyles, autoattack bruiser that becomes useless in teamfights or splitpush tank that also has a lot of cc and peel
LESGOOO SLIMZZY GOT INTO VARS!
yeah good doggo and queen Pleb been new inspiration for him get back into shape
I got beat by a Rakan jg one time. I'll never forget that feeling.
I’ve had Rakan mid 1v9 the whole game
@@meicrodon5715 That Champion is dope. He deserves his own reddit. Rakan 1v9 fill. 😅
If an enemy picks tristana mid i pick rammus mid. Fair and balanced
4:15 oh right forgot why a good bit of lifesteal is reduced on minions, lifesteal is supposed to encourge engenging in fights by being rewarded for aggression, same lifesteal application on minions removes that point, bevause the enemy relies more on easy to damage targets than engange with champions.
So:
50% effective against Minions.
I'm sorry, the font, font color and font size at 10:50 just makes the spelling error physically painful. Other than that, amazing job as always!
A strong measure is this: if, at champ select, the only optimal strategy to win laning phase against them is "sacrifice your laning phase to avoid engaging them", it's a cheese pick.
True WW mains know to go ghost teleport. Barrier is just a bully mechanic.
YAY HUZZY MADE IT INTO THE VIDEO
It's understandable if Trist mid is hated, but as a mid main who really likes to play ADCs, it's quite nice. I was very sad to see Lucian mid go, all these years ago and now Tristana doesn't do well in that role either.
On one hand Riot pushes diverse picks by making more champs jungle viable, but the second an ADC can go mid, it's illegal.
tilterella is the embodiment of cheese
My favourite is support orn has great utility and most importantly I can be there for my team most of the time
Mind you Taric top is not actually "Cheese" they did say when they reworked him they were going to keep his sololane aspect. He should although get a sololane treatment like Pyke and others got.
Make me wonder about those roam top support meta that happen. Since recently there was a talk about bard top that happen.
WW top is honestly his best role I don't know how that counts as a cheese pick. He can short trade infinitely with his passive and has very low risk dives with his self healing at low HP allowing him to survive 3-4 turret shots provided you hit minions on your way out and W giving you a massive attack and move speed boost against low HP enemies. Tiamat also builds into both Titanic and Stridebreaker which are amazing for WW and solve any waveclear issues after your first recall. The cheese is taking barrier instead of TP and becoming useless past the laning phase because you don't know how to short trade and want to all in like a mongrel. Late game he can build bruiser and either split or make picks for his team and chase down stragglers with his W.
WW jungle on the other hand is a complete meme, slow as sin first clear A.K.A. most important clear, W active gives away your position, mediocre potential for ganks, terrible at fighting objectives, a passive that does literally nothing because jungle item keeps your health full and you cannot split push to force 1v1's because you have to take Smite and your clear speed stays slow because you'll have to build tank for teamfights or you'll get blown up without barrier acting as a band-aid if you build damage items.
With Warwick it depends how he is played. Players like H0rnlime use him with TP and Ghost and opt for a tanky splitpush strategy with hullbreaker that works better into lategame and opens up more plays around the map.
My thoughts are that cheese picks should be allowed so long as they're not going against the core fantasy of the character. Like back when that Garen-Yuumi bot lane was a thing where Yuumi built damage and Garen was just her car, that went against the core fantasy of Garen basically being your Fighter Man or straightforward paladin type. Arguably Sett support also went against his fantasy as a gritty pit fighter who's literally itching for a fight, not itching to help out a stronger ally. By comparison, Tristana's character fantasy of simply being a small girl with a big gun and bigger explosions fits on mid, arguably it fits on mid better than on bot because mid's wave management is all about how good you are at pushing the wave and that fits her personality and fantasy better than the more careful management of bot. Top Warwick is a bit more debatable as his fantasy is hunting, moving through the map at top speed following the scent of blood, which he does less on top. Of course, it gives him pretty excellent roam for a top laner, but is that enough to hit his character fantasy? Personally I think it is, but I can easily see arguments that it isn't.
Free my boy Supportekaiser, he ain't do nothing wrong
Honestly with that ult change maybe
6:30 POV TF mispositioning under his tower lol
Reminds me of my friends annie support back in the day. He always got flamed for doing it but almost always stomped the lane and usually the match. This woulda been like season 3-4
I need bardinette and Agurin drama to be reignited in this cs 😫
are u not using a pass filter? why those S sounds hitting so sharp? XD Great video overall though!
i’ve been playing nidalee support as my main for like a full year maybe two by now
Taric Top was AMAZING with Navori and even more so with a good jungle in the VC and with precision runes. I just need to build full armor after Navori and take runes that Regen mana and I output absurd amounts of damage in a 1v1
But since Navori is AS instead of AD, it's not as valuable sadly
cheese keeps the game interesting by creating new ways to think and play the game, the fact that riot doesn't get this with consitently nerfing strats like funneling into the ground, rather than trying to bring said strat to roughly the same power as the older strats (or buffing the older strats up to the cheese strats power) shows riot doesn't understand this.
Camille support makes me a very happy Rell
I disagree with you totally on this.
These picks should almost NEVER be removed from the game, they make the game feel fresh and not as monotonous as it is most of the time.
They bring nothing but more diversity to ALL ROLES and if they are too strong they should be nerfed, not removed from the role.
Unless the whole game devolves into one strategy, for me, it is OK and healthy to have any champion viable in any role.
If it works, it works. If there is no counter to that strategy, or the game becomes small because of that (only 30 champions have presence), then they should go.
As a Camille support player, her w, hookshot, and r are being extremely underestimated here. W slow is so useful when chasing, hookshot is by far one of the best cc abilities in the game, but the R is just genuinely broken. Played correctly it is as effective if not more than a Gragas R, you can divide the team cancel channels, lock down a carry, etc, she offers more in support tbh than she ever will in top lane.
Oddly enough you picked prob the most played "off meta" support pick. Though it isn't anywhere as strong as gragas R. I also think champs like briar, nasus, sylas have alot of potential among others
@@Minecraft52628 It is objectively much stronger than gragas R purely supportively. I do also play Sylas support as well and agree that it's very good but not as good as Camille.
@@sparkz3432 1 person unleavable large zone < up to 5 man hard cc + push.
As a Yorick Jungle, Cheese Picking is Great
Heimerdinger jungle is my favorite cheesepick.
I like to play Ivern and Nunu top
Both are mainly based on the team understanding you can stun enemies and manage the flow of the battle like that, but you don't have a lot of damage
So if my team is one of those "pick strong champions and brainlessly go all in", we lose 💀
Cheese is the name given by some people to strategies that they don't like.
"No, that's not how you're supposed to play the game, stop it! I don't like it!"
Know your strategy weaknesses and strengths and thus its win condition.
I don't like to play following the meta, to me that seems cheap and cheesy.
But that's just because my main is weak and I envy the power of the meta.
Fire emblem Three Houses OST? Nice choice
Honestly.. I'd prefer them to go back to their own originally intended lanes. I shouldn't have to worry about losing first tower just because someone wants to bring trist into mid lane. Mid lane should be about rotating to help other lanes not staying in lane and abusing this window. Turret destroyers have no place in mid. Keep that in top. They're on an island anyway. They need the resources to get off of that island. ~~btw I'm a mage mid main. There is no turret destroying capabilities until late game :v~~
WW passive healing should not work on lane minions or should be reduced like other champ like viego, aatrox, rhaast etc.
I am a Warwick top main and I have mained Tristana mid. I feel personally attacked by that thumbnail lmao
Ah yes, because everyone loves when Karma/Lulu/Janna make it into other lanes. Super interactive, fun gameplay. Cheese picks are only funny when it's a 1-off thing, not when it becomes the meta (looking at you Tristana).
old soraka top lane, the demon of 1 item to victory
I'm a masters Camille onetrick. I have 7 years of experience with the champ. Playing adc when I can't top. I got auto filled two months ago to support and I heard people played it.
So I did. And oh my you are a threat if you have mechanics. No body have matchup KNOWLEGDE against the elite cam onetrick as botlaners. You in ironically zone ppl and can dive them early. Your roams are dangerous ASF. Hail of blades. So you can fight for your team. I take over the games with it. I think I won 18 games straight because my girlfriend knows what I do and samiras into teams with me.
18 winstreak in masters but you can't get GM or chally???
@@Minecraft52628 it was meant as 18 wins on cam supp. Not as in 18 straight wins. I have bad winrate on top
What I really want them to do is add a few more clear counters to very oppressive mechanics like huge mobility. Add an item that inflicts grounded or something, mobility is too important and too prevalent. I kind of like cheese picks as long as they actually at least try to do their role. If someone wants to be Darius support, be my guest, but please actually support and don't steal ADC farm. Nowadays it feels as if 'Oh you didn't pick one of the meta champs? Well if we lose it's your fault but if we win it's not your contribution that counts'. The fact that there even is a meta in a PvP game is incredibly stupid.