Oracle of Ages has another exception in its time travel. When Link first enters the Goron area, they tell him a legend about a young boy (clearly implied to be Link himself) who gave them the first bomb flowers long ago. Link then takes a bomb flower and goes to the past to give it to the ancient Gorons. So not only do bomb flowers exist before Link has a chance to bring them to the past, but there are even legends about his actions before he has a chance to perform them, clearly indicating an instance of closed loop time travel. It seems like Oracle of Ages always uses Self-Correction time travel until the Gorons get involved. Who knew it would be Gorons who would have their own form of time travel lol
It might be that the Gorons were the earliest implemented area done before everything else. Chrono Trigger is same way, very consistent with it's time travel except for the first real quest of rescuing Queen Leene.
There's a THIRD: If you're playing Oracle of Seasons as a link game, one of the link secrets has you deliver a message back to yet another Goron back in Labrynna. And when you do so, said Goron remarks he's never heard such a thing and makes sure to make sure every goron knows this secret...
Jimb's gun has an alternate fire mode of fire bees. It's briefly mentioned in season 3 episode 2, practically a throw away line. I'm glad I could contribute to the key discourse of this video. Oh hey look, extra content about Zelda!
This man has traveled back in time to tell us about the special Burning Bee Blast he pulls off in the season 3 finale to [spoilers] just so he could out Chekhov's Gun the Chekhov's Gun. I don't know what it is that caused him to do it (determination? spite? gumption? apathy? trauma?), but it's clearly an impressive amount of it.
Your misunderstanding is due to your belief that Jimb's Bees season 3 is canon. Doctor Chim Richalds created the series and is the sole author of the Jimb's Bees so Disney's ownership of the ip doesn't mean they can create new canon, it's mere vanfiction (vandalism fiction).
@@kendrajade6688maybe they get send back to the time, like back to the skyward time (there are similar cubes in the surface that can be struck to obliterate them and generate a chest in the sky)
Regarding the time blocks in OoT, Link is actually moving them between child/adult timelines. If you send a block away as adult Link, you can revisit it as child Link and see it there. The reverse is true as well, the blocks that are summoned as adult are visible beforehand to child. There are 1 or 2 exceptions due to weird flag stuff, but it's a real mechanic. As for whether it splits the timeline, I'd guess not because you can visit the block again and send it back to the other timeline, which implies it only travels between the same two timelines that Link does. Whereas Zelda sends Link back to before they ever met, which is a unique situation.
There is no "Child Timeline" during active gameplay in Ocarina of Time as all of Link's actions after he was sealed inside the Sacred Realm for 7 years take place within the _Adult Timeline_ until Zelda sends him back to before Ganondorf's audience with the king. All the blocks he moves around across time are changing place within the Adult Timeline without any effect in the new timeline which was created after Adult Zelda sent Link back days before Ganondorf's attack of Hyrule Castle.
@@javiervasquez625Good point, you're definitely right. Never considered it, but the Child Timeline doesn't start until Link goes back at the very end.
@@brosephlacasquevtuber The blocks mimic the timeshift stones in Skyward Sword, the difference being the raw timeshift stones change the timeline in a fixed area and the time differential is thousands of years.
Isn't it possible that the difference between Zelda and Impa going to the past and Link planting the tree of life is simply a matter of perspective? Imagine the latter from the perspective of Groose. After Link goes back in time and plants the tree, to Groose it has always been there so to him it would look like a closed loop. The tree was always there because Link was always going to travel back in time. The only reason we see it as a self correcting timeline is because we get to see it from Links perspective, the perspective of the time traveler. While when Zelda goes to the past we're in the same position as Groose was before. To us it looks like a closed loop because we don't see it from the perspective of the time traveler.
This would imply that when Zelda first arrived at the sealed grounds she couldn't see herself there frozen in amber because she hadn't instigated that closed time loop yet. That would then also imply that since she wasn't there to maintain the seal Demise/The Imprisoned would have already escaped. So on Zelda's first trek through the surface, before establishing the time loop, she would've been evading either the kaiju avocado or the demon lord himself. All that just makes the supposed cut Zelda playthrough of Skyward Sword that much more awesome in my mind.
So time is relative to each person. How a person comprehends time is determined by when and what they did to affect time. Because Link changed time, he sees how it changed due to his actions, and since Groose didn't change time, he doesn't think time has changed. Did I get that right?
One thing I'd like to mention about Oracle of Ages is that there's NPCs in the present who comment on how the tower is getting bigger. The tower is being built in the past, so in the present, the timeline would be correcting itself for that, but the fact that people other than Link are observing this is very interesting.
I wonder if that NPC used to play in that area as a kid, but would be unable to do so in the current situation, and the only way the timeline can self-correct is if *he notices that discrepancy*.
Yeah, I'll accept any criticisms of Skyward Sword's mechanics, but I will hear no such disrespect to Fi. She might be somewhat annoying as a companion, but she's never once allowed my Wiimote to die while playing. She's exactly as graceful as the spirit of the Master Sword should be.
19:20 about that, zelda's stone is rauru's stone from the future, so theres a duplicated stone in the past Zelda duscovered the ultimate duplication glitch
Totally not cannon, but it would be funny if that's the main reason Demise hated Hylia. He found a glitch in time to get all powerful and she was like no.
the zelda universe is essentially a computer simulation (in universe). the twilight realm is the recycling bin. (they even have circuit board-patterns) the goddesses are system admins. divine magical items are world edit tools. change my mind.
I would've argued the bootstrap and the self correcting stuff happens by perspective. Like, if you're the one performing it, it looks like a McFly situation to you in specific, whereas if someone else performs it, it creates a bootstrap situation for the witnesses. It doesn't explain the mess that is the end of Skyward Sword but hey I've tried.
it's weird to explain, but in Zelda (and most media) time travel phenomena always takes form in tools. Time Travel is by a means of some 'thing', or 'magic' or 'blessing'. It just so happens that people can wield these things and also become a part of that process. In other words, every form of time travel IS a bootstrap paradox (within a given timeline). By being the one conducting the time travel, you then become a part of the self-correcting timeline itself, able to see the self-correction happen with your own two eyes. The only reason why we ever see bootstrap paradoxes is because we're not the ones doing the time-travelling. This seems pretty consistent across the series (unless I'm forgetting something). If a bootstrap paradox is a "loop" or a circle, "McFly"ing a timeLINE would be the process of bending that line into a circle, if that makes sense.
@@zzthedon4k I don't fully think this could work with all closed loops. Because loops that happen because the future version of someone travels to the past to affect the situation of their past can create loops that only affect the past and not future so there's no self-correcting future at least unless you can argue that the correction happens in that closed loop which in my understanding is something that doesn't apply to McFly time travel. I could be wrong though and usually time travel is affected by how the writer uses it so there's bound to be inconsistencies between different media projects. For reference in this comment I was talking about both Harry Potter and the prisoner of Azkaban and that one episode of My Little Pony.
Doesn’t apply to OoT either with the Song of Storms. Link still experiences it as a closed loop, even though he is the one instigating it, which under this line of reasoning should make it a McFly scenario.
Minor detail about Majora’s Mask vs OOT: In the former, it’s implied that Link is blessed by “The Goddess of Time.” There’s no telling what sort of effect divine intervention vs Zelda’s mojo might have.
@@danielderamus-km2ls I think it was always intended to be the case that the Goddess of Time was supposed to be Nayru, and Goddess of Time is simply another name for her (yes she is the Goddess of Wisdom, but Wisdom is also directly linked to Time in some cases). However, once Hylia was created as a concept, its reasonable to conclude that Hylia is probably the Goddess of Time now.
@@JaidynReiman Zelda's secret stone power being both light and time in tears of the kingdom implies that Hylia is the Goddess of Light and Time at the same time.
You missed the Phantom Hourglass, and Phantom Sword. Once the hourglass is forged into hilt, and with the aid of the spirit of courage and time, the sword can be used to freeze Bellum, the final boss, in a way extremely similar to the Stasis rune. In theory, the hourglass itself may use some form of time magic when protecting you from the harmful environment in the game's main dungeon, though this is arguably instead just the hourglass using the sands it contains as a substitute for the life force you would lose. This example doesn't exactly bring anything new to the table, but it does show another refined tool responsible for time manipulation
That is interesting. If the Phantom Hourglass is a similar effect to Stasis since it has no connection to Hylia at all. At least from what I can remember of that game. Maybe the Ocean King is just the Hylia equivalent for the realm Phantom Hourglass takes place in?
This would all fit into the category he covered with Sonias time powers they arnt true time travel but taking a object through dimensions to a spot and state it was in the past or freezing it into the past.
What's so beautiful about the song of storms is, just like the windmill and just like the time travel, the song goes around and around in a loop, forever.
What if, when the mirror was fragmented, its trans-dimensional abilities were in flux and as that shard passed over the ruins of the Temple of Time, which in theory could be a focal point for temporal and/or dimensional flux around it, the reaction between the two energies caused some sort of rift to form that launched the shard back in time. And much as the Snowpeak Shard corrupted Yeta, this Shard mutated one of the spiders in the Temple into Armogohma. Now, if this is actually the Temple of Light (which is what I've always headcanoned), the theory still works but instead of being transported through TIME, it's transported to the temple in the Sacred Realm.
My explaination for OoT's and MM's Time Travel is that in OoT Zelda sends him back in Time, making him JUMP BACK IN TIME, but in MM Link uses the Ocarina of Time to REWIND TIME, causing the timeline seize to exist. Jumping through Time creates another Timelines and Rewinding Time is... rewinding everything that happened.
Except when Link "jumps" back in time at the end of OoT, the Link that lands in the past isn't an adult. He's a child. Meaning Link himself was physically rewound in the time travel process. Unlike what happens in TotK, OoS, SS or HW:AoC, which would be better characterized as a "jump" through time.
@@Miksen25 You and Broseph's explanations would both work if Link was just de-aged and then sent to the past as if he had gone through a time gate in SS. But then there would be two child Links running around Hyrule (for the sake of brevity I will call the one who went back in time Link B and the original Link A) at the same time. This potentially messes up the plot, because it's shown at the end of OoT that Link goes to see Zelda. Link A already was going to see Zelda, so depending on his timing either Link B reached her first and Zelda is left wondering why Link came back seemingly ignorant to everything he said about Ganondorf, or Link A got there first, and Zelda is left wondering why Link didn't mention Ganondorf earlier when Link B arrives.
@@BitcrushedMozart or even simpler: Zelda rewound Time for Link but she remained with everyone else. He also said smth like "it depends who uses it and if the person uses it for himself or someone else
@@Miksen25 Hot take, she only sent Link's soul/memories back. Which overwrote/merged with his past self. -I can't tell you what she did with his adult body, because TH-cam will erase my comment...-
You know both points of the timeline breaking come from Zelda's Lullaby, oot Zelda plays it to send Link to the child timeline, and Terrako plays it to open the portal to the past, i never actually noticed that before Might have something to do with Zelda's Lullaby and the Ballad of the Goddess being mirrored versions of each other?
oh wait, inverting a magical song also inverts it;s effects, the song of time (fi's theme fragment, so master sword related) being played inverted makes the time go slower instead of going back and playing it duplicating it's notes makes you go faster forward in time, so zelda's lullaby being the inverted of the song made to represent the godess of light and time would have to have some influence in the world.
And that the instance of a Causal Loop in the game that usually uses Single Timeline correction involves a refined earthen good, for that matter. Maybe it has something to do with a human touch causing a switch in mode?
7:08 I feel like a lot of fans don't realize this is how the "divine prank" happened in Twilight Princess. I've said this for years. It makes so much sense.
I was always certain this was the truth. Link still has the Triforce of Courage when he goes back in time, and for whatever reason, he still has the past version of the Triforce of Courage (while the version he had in the adult timeline remains there), and so the Triforce automatically split. The "divine prank" was a result of Zelda's actions at the end of OOT, which still caused the Triforce to be split apart and Ganondorf to get a piece, he just wasn't aware he had it until his execution (and neither did Zelda nor Link; they ended up passing the Triforce pieces down to their descendants). Ganondorf had the Triforce, but because he wasn't aware of it he couldn't tap into it and win the war to result in the events of OOT happening all over again. Instead he is eventually defeated and executed, but it activates as a last ditch effort to keep him alive.
@@JaidynReiman Years ago, I saw something that was going through the creation myth story and the Imprisoning War story as told in LttP's manual and comparing the official English translation against a literal word for word translation of what was actually said in the Japanese manual as well as the article writer's effort at a more accurate translation, and there was an interesting tidbit in there that's stuck with me. An interesting detail that got lost in the official translation. The way Nintendo originally talked about the Triforce in Japanese they said that it contains emblems that are released when it's touched to form a connection between the person and the Triforce's power. So the Triforce marking on the hand is not direct possession of any piece of the Triforce itself, the marking is just simply a remote link. The implication of this concept for TP's "divine prank" is that Link from the end of OoT carried his connection to a Triforce piece with him into the newly formed timeline he was sent to, and this remote access made it possible for the Triforce in that new timeline to start its own selection of bearers without anybody touching it. The Triforce was just resting in the Sacred Realm like it was supposed to and then it picked up a signal that a Courage piece bearer was out there, and it was just an automated process from there that bearers for Wisdom and Power needed to be selected as well.
Wait but if the Triforce of Courage shattered when Link was sent to the new Child Timeline why would he then have it in the Child Timeline at all? The Triforce he had is still in the Adult Timeline now shattered for WW Link to later collect. In the Child Timeline the Triforce as a whole should still be in the sacred realm. Also if the Child Timeline has Link never meeting Zelda until then(and thus Link warning her about Ganondorf) how was he able to be with the Master Sword in the Temple of Time at the end of the game in the first place? The Door of Time was only opened because he got the OoT from Zelda who in this new Child Timeline he has yet to meet, so the Door of Time should still be sealed.
@@JJAB91What happens is, when Link returns to the past, the connection he had with the future Triforce of Courage awakens the past Triforce of Courage, and in turn it awakens the other pieces that go to Zelda and Ganondorf Meanwhile the future Triforce of Courage splits in the Adult Line as there is no hero to wield it As for the Door of Time, he opened it from inside
Jacob's gun is filled with bees. Bees have a defense mechanism where they group together, vibrant and friction an enemy to death. So since Jacob's gun is FILLED WITH BEE'S, a ball of the flaming dead is possible.
To answer your question about the Blocks of Time.... Yes. If you access the areas in which the blocks appear, you can travel backward / forward in time and see that when the blocks are present in one timeline, they are not present in the other. The developers originally wanted to have a series of puzzles in which sending the Blocks of Time into the past was an essential part of the Spirit Temple, but the mechanic was too unwieldy and complicated so it was ditched in favor of the bifurcated temple in the final product. But the programming and mechanics of the blocks of time were never removed from the game's code, so when Link plays the Song of Time in front of a block as an adult, that same block appears in the same spot as a child (but most areas are inaccessible so the vast majority of players never notice). The quickest and easiest way to check this is to check the Block of Time in Goron City, since it's one of the few areas accessible to both Child Link and Adult Link.
I think it's funny to think the OoT time blocks are sent to a time where some guy is keeping track of them and knows he has to move them when they show up
The Master Sword in Zelda games isn't bound by time. So, if you place it in the past and travel to the future, it'll still be there. It's a neat trick that lets it appear whenever needed!
@@halyoalex8942 We never see 2 Master Swords in TotK at once. We see one, then we send it back in time, then we see it again healed up later. Yes the Light dragon is seen before that, but the Master Sword is not visible from that distance so there’s no guarantee it’s there.
@@TimeAxis Then, what is the reason Zelda became the dragon? If Zelda isnt healing the Master Sword on her forehead in dragon form, why does she become the dragon in the first place?
@@anlkucuk6756 The Secret Stone looked tasty ...or she concluded that the only way for her to get back to her timeline or to aid Link was to become an immortal dragon and wait over ten thousand years
it might be a power inherent to link that he is immune to time due to being a consistent resurrection of the same spirit he is always in the timeline at every point
...Okay, I was going to defend my belief of the 'Skyward Sword should have caused a timeline split' theory (note, I don't think it's a timeline that we've seen, I just think it should exist)...but your recap of what exactly goes down has made me realize there are a LOT of weird details here I didn't remember. For instance, I misremembered Fi's goodbye taking place in the PRESENT, not the PAST - which, yeah, makes that VERY weird - and I DEFINITELY didn't remember that Zelda wasn't there in the past anymore. I still like Skyward Sword a lot, but I am seeing the inherent plotholes here. It's especially weird that they decided to make it so that you could see Zelda's sealed self if you peaked through the doors, but didn't take into account the pedestal the Master Sword gets placed in, even though it's CLEARLY something that, like the Goddess Statue and Zelda's crystal AND Impa's identity, was getting set up for all along. All they had to do was do what I MISREMEMBERED them as doing and having Fi's goodbye be in the present, and then have the pedestal, I dunno, appear out of the ground (I don't think they should have had it there the whole time, because that would have given the whole thing away, and clearly they agree, but clearly they also didn't think HARD enough). ...And I think someone just plain fucked up on the Zelda crystal disappearing, especially given that there's an explicit line of dialogue from Impa referencing her still being there. ...All that being said, I still think Skyward Sword SHOULD have caused a timeline split, because it's the biggest instance of a grandfather paradox going unresolved I can think of in the games, AND it would have opened things up for where to take Zelda games in the future - ...but I'm aware now that things in the game don't back that up. Thanks for the info.
17:20 Ok but in OoT the time jumps are always the exact same amount so time passes in the past while link is in the future. from what we see in game the moment you plant these beans the sprout comes out in no time so they're clearly magical, what if the beans take EXACTLY the same amount as the time jump to turn into the flying platforms and right before that they're only a patch of grass? This is a totally normal and plausible way to explain how they work lol
What makes the beans magical is the fact that they can fly without any sort of scientific reason. You plant the seeds in the past and 7 years later they are full magic plants, pretty self explanatory.
I see what you mean at it would work 😂 Mad convinient though that when you plant them, you can see their sprout immediately, only for that sprout to apparently recess in the next 7 years, leaving ZERO trace of the sapling until the VERY moment it would be fully grown, at which point it suddenly, instantly pops out in full bloom for Link to use.
@@nothinghere8434 maybe it hides underground in it's final stages of development to avoid being eaten by predators in it's most vulnerable state, after that it can just fly away to escape!!!
@@PoruasecasIt could be that they instead fly up extremely high to be safe while they finish growing, and then comes back down to spread it's seeds or something.
Here are my 2 cents: 1: I don't think recall actually rewinds an object in state as it doesn't un-melt ice blocks for example. 2: It could be that the loop in Majora's Mask is the "delete the future" sort similar to how it works in Outer Wilds (but that's beside the point) even though I have no proof to back it up and am just postulating. 3: I know it's a really shakey explanation with little to no definitive proof to back it up but could gate-of-time SCST travel and its percieved (!) effects depend on who is time traveling? As said in the video, SCST travel has a habit of retconning the future, for example Groose who goes from "what a nice empty spot to plant a tree in wink wink nudge nudge" to "what a nice tree that had always been here" because Link took an action in the past (planting the seed) and then traveled to the future, effectively letting the past "play itself out" but in a changed state (with the tree being there) resulting in a different present (with the tree). Since Zelda traveled back using the Lanayru gate and did the same to Link as Link did to Groose (changing the past by sealing herself) but Link wasn't an active participant in the travel, maybe what we play through when first arriving in the sealed temple (thus seeing Zelda's crystal) could be a retconned version created by story events that have yet to unfold (at least from Link's perspective). That could be a way to resolve the problem of "ripple effect proof memory" time travelers and video game players (on account of the game being unable to affect the memories of a real life player) have. We the players are supposed to know what Link knows and after Zelda travels back and seals herself, what Link knows would change without him noticing because he did not partake in traveling to the past with the Lanayru gate and thus would be as effected as Groose was when planting the seed of life. Because the player could not be affected, we basically play through the memories of a time travel affected and retconned Link up to the point Zelda travels back in time. Is it a shakey try to explain the inconsistency with the sudden causal loop in a seemingly SCST time travel system I cannot proove? Yes. Is the idea of the player being time-travel-retconned worth considerating? In my opinion also yes. TLDR: Since Link didn't travel back in Lanayru, he was retconned just like Groose was when planting the seed of life and the crystal we see when first arriving at the sealed temple is a result of the player not being able to be retconned and thus we are playing through a retconned Link's memories in some way. Anyhow I have also thought a lot about Wild-era games and their timeline placement and have come to the conclusion that they all happen AFTER every other game after an unknown event (maybe Hyrule warriors 1? Its canonicity is debatable though) that somehow fused all 3 OoT timelined together. The kingdom of Hyrule subsequently fell (either at a later point or as a result of the brutal timeline fusion seeing as one Hyrule was full of monsters and a deranged feral Ganondorf and another one was literally flooded) only to be re-founded by Rauru the goat, que TotK's past, the great calamity of 10.000 years ago, BotW and AoC and TotK. I also completely agree that if a timeline split happens, it happens immediately upon traveling back. Because otherwise you had to define an threshold of "interference" that, upon being exceeded, causes a split. But where would you put said threshold? Would the timeline split if you change larger politics? What about kicking a rock? What about merely breathing? (which at this point would practically be the same as causing a split by traveling back but I digress) Either you cause a timeline split immediately upon traveling back ir you don't cause a split at all. Thank you everyone for reading through my confusing ted talk.
Outer Wilds doesn't "delete the future". Outer Wilds postulates that because data isn't physical, it can be sent through a black hole to a computer or a person. At the beginning of the loop, you recieve the data from the previous loop because data is small enough conceptually that the universe doesn't break if it has no origin. Knowledge doesn't physically exist, as it were. Each loop simply never occured. This is why if you jump through the black hole in the ATP, your body exists in the ATP, but also back at the campsite you recieve your foreknowledge. This is also why the travel log keeps recieving updates. If you look at the computer in your ship, it's accidentally been connected to the ATP network too. It's got the glowy lines on it.
@@Xahnel yes. But the fact that data from a paradoxical source (e.g. a future that will never come to pass) can comfortingly exist means that in some way you are rewriting the future simply by having a different string of memories than last loop beamed into your brain.
I think an issues with the time travel dilemma is that we are seeing things from Link’s perspective IE the person going through time. It seems that each time Link messes with history we get the resolvement time, like with the pot or the seed. While whenever someone else does time travel we get the closed loop time, like Zelda’s Amber or the timeline split. And this makes a lot of sense now that I think of it because it’s all point of view.
The issue with this is that it doesn't explain the Song of Storms issue. Link is directly changing history in that one, but its a bootstrap which wouldn't fit the "if someone else does time travel" rule.
It makes sense that Hylia, who loves and adores her Hero, would be futzing with time to make his shenaniganery through it possible. No matter what Link does, the timeline is unbroken, because Time loves him. Other people have to Live With The Consequences, because Time does not love _them._
7:26 You’re not alone, I like the Triforce shard hunt too. It’s got a lot of cool moments and areas, and the general vibe of searching the seas to rebuild a lost treasure is awesome.
38:55 THANK you. I really love what they *tried* to do (but didn't try that hard) with Fi. I did a lot of mental fanfixing of her cutscenes with the divine flames, playing through that game.
Speaking of the divine flames, that would have been the PERFECT opportunity to give her a character arc. As you upgrade the sword, Fi herself could upgrade both in appearance and personality into something closer to human. That way, she mirrors Girahim's descent into madness and personality-less servitude as Demise's sword spirit, while also gaining something of her own to be actually sacrificed when she seals herself away. But I guess all the good character arc writing went to Groose in that game.
@@brosephlacasquevtuber They did exactly the same thing with the "Demon king? Secret stones?" cutscenes in _Tears_ too. Perfect time for characterization. Have the elder goron tell Yunobo not to eat the secret stone even though it looks tasty. SOMETHING. Nevermind that I'd have cast Bludo, Yona, and maybe Buliara--as the sages instead of the champion descendants again.
I think the answer is simple. Jimb pulled the trigger and shot out a swarm of bees. The bees attacked a random person within the building, causing them to freak out and knock over a bunch of stuff. This included a bottle of water and a pair of scissors, conveniently landing on an electrical cable and causing sparks to fly, which ignited the carpeted floor of the building and caused it to burn down. Whew, that was simple. I really enjoyed your video, though i don’t know if i dig the super long outro about zelda.
The vase could be explained by the goron having a vase made in the time between present and past, but Link makes a McFly change by giving it to him before he has it made
Actually there is a Good Logical Reason between Majora's Mask and Ocarina of Time. The difference between them is that in Ocarina of Time, Zelda sending Link back to his Childhood Time before their meeting was a In-Universe Key Event. Meanwhile, Link's traveling back to the First Day in Majora's Mask is a game mechanic and not a key event in the story, with the exception of when it is first used. So, every time Link travels back to the first day in Majora's Mask it is not a key story event, but rather a Game Mechanic and nothing more. Nintendo was fully aware that the Player cannot complete all of the Side and Main Quests in 3 Days, so they obviously gave the Player the ability to travel back to the First Day so that they could complete all of the quests. Game Mechanic will never be a Confirmation canon event because it is a Game mechanic, and nothing more; In-Universe is the real way canonized something because as longer something really happened withing the Story; then it is Canon. Which is why the Zelda Timeline is not Canon considering that it is based on faulty Eveidences such as Songs, Easter Eggs, and Reference along with Nintendo Interviews and some Books that all they do is Copy and Paste those Easter Eggs, Songs, and Reference instead to actually In-Universe Events.
I always assumed the Master Sword being gone in the Temple of Time in TP was when Link had it in OoT and the dungeon is just happening at the same time.
If this time travel occurred in any other timeline, that would be a valid excuse, and one I was going to use for this video. But then I remembered that the Child Timeline branches before the sword is drawn and none of the events of the adult era of Ocarina of time took place.
@@brosephlacasquevtuber I just always assumed that the Master Sword works like the Triforce. If it’s pulled in the present day and Link travels back in time it will be “gone” like the Triforce is. We’ve never had an instance where we get the sword and can travel back in time and visit its pedestal. Twilight Princess is the first and only time it’s happened. Zelda never goes to the lost woods or talks about visiting in TOTK. The closest we get is seeing the light dragon, and if I remember correctly that’s after Link sends the sword back. The Master Sword is a divine relic powered by the four goddesses, so it doesn’t necessarily have the follow the laws of physics
@@brosephlacasquevtuberBut the events take place none the less as it shows such happening in the adult timeline it has been brought up that the events of the child timeline still took place, meaning link still saved ruto and the opened the cave fir the gorons, as majoras mask does not happen until 6 month later after he is sent back in time by Zelda. Now the door of time may be connected back to the instance of the temple he removed the sword from. But otherwise the seven years he trapped is unaccessable without the master sword itself.
The only good explanation is a bullshit one: This sends you to 7 years after Child Link... in the Child Timeline. At some point, the Hero of Time decided to grab the Master Sword at some point for something or other as an adult, and the second he was gone, the Hero of Twilight snuck in. Why? I don't fuckin' know. Maybe he noticed he still had the Triforce and wanted to see what the deal was. Maybe his sword broke and he needed a spare. We know from the fact that the Hero's Shade is adult-size that he at least lived to adulthood, so it's not _technically_ impossible. Stupid, but not impossible.
11:44 perfect!!! 13:21 the Ravioli disrespect 13:07 BEANS 13:08 oh yeah! Its all coming together Also, when demise defeat would spilt the timeline wouldn't there be a timeline where all the games did not happen/happen in another way?
That's the argument. Some people propose that parallel to Ocarina of Time, in the timeline where Demise dies in the past, is where the the imprisoning war of TotK takes place, or the events of Four Sword Adventures happen, or whatever other lore inconsistency they take the most issue with gets resolved. But I'm convinced a timeline split simply doesn't happen there.
@@brosephlacasquevtuber It feels like a cop out theory that's 99% untrue Nintendo wasn't planning very well with any of the timeline stuff (Besides some exceptions ofc) And them now not even mentioning any time line stuff is just a way out I guess
My problem with no timeline split in SS was always, if they killed Demise in the past, exactly what WAS the overripe avocado Link fought in the present? And why would Zelda in the past have to keep watch over a dead Demise ... It just raises too many questions. 😵💫
Before this gets out of hand, I would like to request a patent on the term "full of bees" as I am the one who coined the term originally and you owe me royalties for using it in your video.
Tad Williams War of the Flowers published in 2000 had fairy cops shooting bee guns. But I hadn't seen it show up since then and love it when it happens.
This video is the equivalent of someone mistaking pluging an extension cord into itself as creating infinite power and you explaining in depth why that doesnt work.
29:37 Yeah but... thats not the master sword. the sword in the adult timeline is explicitly NOT the master sword, as it was sent back in time with link in Oot. Which is weird, because if i had a nickel for every time there was a powerful sword with a blueish-purple hilt, that was held in a pedestal for safe keeping, that also had time travel powers, i would have two nickels, which isnt alot, but its weird that it happened twice.
I remember hearing somewhere that the blocks actually do travel back and forth in time which you can see if you travel back and forth yourself to check after moving the block. Take this with a grain of salt though as i have no clue where i heard this
Toward the end of the video, you say that the Skyward Sword time travel, if it were to create a split, would create three separate timelines. Two where the bad guys were defeated in different ways and one where Link fails in his adventure. Isn't this exactly how the official Zelda timeline explains the split in Ocarina? Two where Ganon is defeated in slightly different ways (one where he's a beast and one where he's a man, even. Just like The Imprisoned and Demise) and another where Link dies and fails. In this way, it's exactly like the Ocarina split. If it's intentional, you could even look at it as an intentional homage. The only issue would be, "Is there a time travel based issue that would prevent Link from beating Ganon in OoT?" You do bring up this idea in your video; the song of time blocks. If working on the other Ocarina-based time travel, they would split the timelines as well. This video is still really interesting and comprehensive, though. It was interesting to bring all the examples up. I also love how you used Terrako as secondary evidence. Even as a member of the Skyward Sword Defense Squad, I still could appreciate how well this was made.
I think its very unlikley that it would be an intentional homage since the first instance (That I am aware of) of a nintendo confirmed timeline split is in the Hyrule Historia, which was released AFTER Skyward Sword. So unless Nintendo was sure on timeline split before they offically announced it (which I think is unlikely due to how inconsistent they were with the timeline), it is unlikley a homage. I do agree though, that it is a nice coincidence and I thought a similar thing when he first said the 3 timeliens from SS.
You know it is possible that everytime we see an apparent self-healing single timeline in Zelda what we are actually seeing is a timeline convergence - with the pre and post time travel timelines being merged. Usually the events are subtle so it is not really noticeable except for subtle changes that only the traveller is aware of but then there is the end of Skyward Sword which is either a timeline convergence or a mess. Also there is one piece of Time travel in Skyward Sword that you failed to mention... probably because it is past to future which shouldn't usually mess with the timeline and is not seen on screen in game. That is young Impa being sent to the future to rescue Zelda and bring her to the past. It may be that Young Impa's arrival in the present made Zelda's time travel inevitable and forced a change in the timeline before Link even reached the surface.
Okay, I have a thought about Skyward Sword. Link's actions throughout the entire game was a massive Bootstrap Loop. He never *killed* Demise, and his actions "merely" Sealed him. The Sealing of Demise into the Avocado were what led to Zelda being kidnapped by Ghirahim so that he could be unsealed and thus Link heading down to the surface and setting up the dominos that lead to him sealing Demise which set up the dominoes again for Zelda to be kidnapped. When Link returns to his time, he returns to *his* time, not to the beginning of the loop, since this loop only exists from the perspective of Demise/Ghirahim. The only thing that line of logic doesn't attest to is the sudden inclusion of the Pedestal of Time, but that I feel is a case of Hylia now being able to step in once the Bootstrap that seals Demise has been enforced with its completion, with Hylia moving Link back to his future through the Gate. The main reason this doesn't cause a timeline split is that, unlike Link being sent *back* in time, he got sent *forward*. His actions in the future doesn't change the past and thus wouldn't collapse the Bootstrap that leads to the sealing, with him being sent *after* the moment he went back in time. This explains why the events of the game still happen, with the Goddess Statue being on the surface and Zelda meeting up with her father being examples. Maybe I'm talking nonsense.
I always wondered why the fallen hero timeline was dependent on Link dying during the final battle, like if he died at any other point before Ganon would have won regardless of the battle.
At that point is the most likely, as he has the entire triforce and zelda has her powers, kicking off the events of ALttP. Any other time link dies would have Ganondorf needing to still find links body, and finding zelda while she's powered up.
16:45 Just gonna let you know that somebody (me) caught your VeggieTales reference. You have my respect. "So that would make him a cheese-headed bean boy!"
"This is not cheese on my head, it is a hat! A yellow hat." Thanks, I'm glad you enjoyed it! Comments like this are precisely why I love putting tiny blink-and-you'll-miss-it deep cut references in these vids.
Here's my understanding and theory of it : - Some causal loops are true causal loops (a causal loop that also happens from the point of view of the person time travelling (example : song of storm in OOT)) - Some causal loops are self correcting single timelines from the point of view of the people not time travelling (example : Zelda's amber in SS) - All self correcting single timelines are timeline splits from the point of view of someone time travelling and coming back to the present in the new timeline they created. So basically every time travel, exept true causal loops, creates a new timeline, we just don't always get to see them. My theory still works in back to the future, because even though the guy who stopped his parents from being in love dissappeared, I think the timeline he comes from still exists, but he's dissapearing because he's currently stuck in the timeline he's not supposed exist in. So he could theoretically go back to his original timeline before dissapearing. (please note that I haven't watched this movie so I'm just basing this on the information the video tells us) As for the end of skyward sword, my theory is that there are indeed 2 timelines, like every other time travel (exept true causal loops), one where Link kills Demise in the present, and one where Link kills Demise in the past. At the end of the game, we return to the timeline where he killed Demise in the present, that's why it doesn't look like a self correcting single timeline. As for the master sword, I believe because it's magic and isn't bound by time, it manifests itself in every timelines at the same time, that's why it suddenly seems to appear in the wrong timeline. (maybe because the world would be doomed if there was a timeline without it so Hylia made sure that it always exists) As for Zelda's amber dissapearing in the past, I think that's just a mistake lol
I wanted to put forth for Majora's mask the amount of time being traveled is considerably less 7 years versus a couple days, it could also be likely that smaller jumps in time cause less of a strain and can be smoothed out easier.
What if the magic beans only just happened to grow to full size after you just happen to return after having planted them? And with the Gordon Vase, I figured maybe some Goron in that family line secretly replaced the Vase, like the previous one (the one Link gave) got too old or something. Otherwise that Vase would have lived eternities, forever.... It HAS to break down eventually, right?
So what you're saying is that Jimb's gun shoots bees, except in one or two episodes he can shoot bees that are on fire. And there are people in the show that have fire guns and can sometimes shoot bees from them. But it's inconsistent and clearly depends on if the writers needed a gun to shoot fire or bees depending on the plot beats of the particular episode. But your argument is that Jimb's gun can't shoot fire because it's unable to make fire in all but 3 cases. Just saying, your position relies just as much on "ignore these other instances" as anyone else's.
Skyward Sword's Time Gates seem to maintain the specific reality of the ones that go into the past to change things while also changing the present to reflect the new history it represents, adjusted to allow for the unaltered histories of the time travelers to still work. Link experiences the changes Zelda made as a bootstrap, but he experiences his own changes as a Mcfly. Groose, on the other hand, sees both Link's and Zelda's changes as bootstraps. Zelda, probably would have seen nothing behind the door at the back of the sealed temple when she first descended, because her being there was a Mcfly change she had not made yet. To make things even more confusing, she might have thought the Tree of Life looked pretty, because for her, that change would have been a bootstrap change.
I was always confused when hearing theories about a timeline split occurring during Skyward Sword. You’ve managed to perfectly break down the confusing mess that is Skyward Sword time travel, amazing work!!
I call my timeline theory the Entropy Timeline Theory (I don't know if entropy's the right word). The more timelines there are, the higher a state of energy the timeline will be at. The universe wants to be at the lowest state of energy, so the timelines will pull each other together to eventual converge into one timeline again, like what eventually happens by the time of Breath of the Wild. So the whole timeline is a single timeline with self-correction. Every alternate timeline is just temporary, it just sometimes takes a while to correct itself. Most of the time, it immediately fixes itself, but if the difference is to great, then it takes a while. A very long time from a human point of view, but a short time from the universe's point of view. My other timeline theory is that there is a split with Majora's Mask. One timeline would be were the moon fell and Link went back three day (every timeline were he went back would just converge because they have the same consequences). The other timeline would be were Link stops the moon and then returns to Hyrule. From Hyrule's perspective, Termina getting destroyed doesn't really matter. It's the fact that Link is not in one of the timelines anymore. The Link from Twilight is the ancestor of the Hero of Time. So when Ganondorf returns when Twilight Princess would happen, there would be no Hero strong enough to oppose him. This is when A Link to the Past's Imprisoning War would happen. This is when the divergence would become to great and a new timeline would be solidified, creating the Downfall Timeline. Edit: I think Ganondorf getting the Triforce could be the catalyst that causes the timeline splits. Someone getting the Triforce + time shenanigans creates a new timeline. In the Adult Timeline Ganondorf get's the Triforce, it splits apart, and then he is defeated. In the Child Timeline Ganondorf is defeated before he get's the Triforce, he only get's a piece because of Link and never touches the united thing. In the Downfall Timeline, Ganondorf eventual gets all three pieces of Triforce. The Triforce is a more absolute part of the Zelda universe then the flow of time, the three Golden Goddesses are above the Goddess of Time, so the timeline's self-correction cannot over power of the Triforce.
While I understand causal loops and a self-correcting timeline are conflicting rules of time travel that we through the perspective of the time travelers or audience of the time travelers can point out, I think it's important to note that from anyone else's point of view in these worlds the rules are consistent. From Groose's POV, as soon as Link planted the tree in the past it had always been there, even before he presumably witnessed Link go through the Gate of Time to plant it. To Groose, if he actually knew what Link was doing, after the change was made he'd assume "Link went to plant the tree that has always been here in the past because he knows it's meant to be here in the present." Though we as Link can identify a self-correcting single timeline here, to anyone else it would look the change had always happened because of the time travel and therefore like a causal loop. From Link's POV the crystal was always there even before Zelda physically entered the Gate of Time, looking to him like a causal loop, but it's entirely possible that at some point Zelda had been in a present day Sealed Temple without her crystal in it and only after sealing herself in the past would the crystal be in the present. From her POV what we see as a causal loop could just be the end result of a self-correcting timeline. So, if from an outside perspective all time travel seems to have already happened and any changes made seem predestined, but from the time traveler's perspective they're making a change that didn't always exist then the rules are technically consistent... in Skyward Sword specifically... except for Old Impa always having the bracelet because that's causal and was definitely already the case for all the time travelers in that instance even before the time travel. TL;DR Skyward Sword's time travel could be seen as consistent if time travel is ruled as "seems causal for outsiders but self-correcting for time travelers" except the bracelet also being causal for the time travelers. The other games also don't follow those rules, mostly.
Thinking about Skyward Sword, you can actually say the two gates of time act differently with only one slight plot hole. The gate that Zelda used was part of a causal loop but the gate activated by the Master Sword caused an auto correcting timeline. The only problem is that bracelet which can be seen on old Impa. The timestones are actually easy to explain as well, just like you said about the recall ability, you are actually shifting time through the objects instead of actually moving through time.
Another fantastic, well constructed Zelda video that despite probably looking like the ravings of a madman to an outsider, is incredibly fascinating to a Zelda fan (...AKA, a fellow madman.) Also, love the use of Cadence of Hyrule music!
I think its easiest to say that "The Imprisoned" is not the same as "Demise." Demise is his full form, that can only be achieved through either getting to Zelda or getting to his sealed consciousness, should it still exist by the present time, within the Master Sword. Meanwhile The Imprisoned is just the raw evil energy of Demise that can and will continue to exist without a consciousness and seek to break out of its seal up untill Link squishes it with the Triforce. Thus when Link defeats Demise in the past he's just setting up the eventual annoying fights with the Imprisoned later on. Similarly I dont think the Timeshift stones are actual time travel so much as they're similar to recall from TotK and they're just shifting the area around to be similar to how it was in the past, so the Thunder Dragon exists in a quantum superposition of being both dead and alive in the present untill Link acts upon him and cures his sickness after he's recalled his physical state back to the point of being alive but still sick. The same logic of Timeshift Stones merely recalling the area around them could then explain the Temple of Time in Twilight Princess, in that the door recalls it back to it's pristine post-OOT self, but you're still technically in the present day, you're just using the recalled ToT to get to deeper parts of the woods where Zant has hidden the mirror. This would also explain why the Master Sword is missing, and explain why there's enemies at all, namely skulltulas, in this temple.
Tbh I assumed ( and I haven’t watched the video but I’ve also never seen anyone come up with this theory), the downfall timeline was the original, and someone altered the timeline to make sure The Hero of Time succeeded. After all, OoT was the first game that didn’t take place in the downfall timeline
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Oracle of Ages has another exception in its time travel. When Link first enters the Goron area, they tell him a legend about a young boy (clearly implied to be Link himself) who gave them the first bomb flowers long ago. Link then takes a bomb flower and goes to the past to give it to the ancient Gorons. So not only do bomb flowers exist before Link has a chance to bring them to the past, but there are even legends about his actions before he has a chance to perform them, clearly indicating an instance of closed loop time travel.
It seems like Oracle of Ages always uses Self-Correction time travel until the Gorons get involved. Who knew it would be Gorons who would have their own form of time travel lol
The Gorons make their own rules lol
It might be that the Gorons were the earliest implemented area done before everything else. Chrono Trigger is same way, very consistent with it's time travel except for the first real quest of rescuing Queen Leene.
@@Truvix-zx4pw”i'll do my own thing”
Miles Gorales
There's a THIRD:
If you're playing Oracle of Seasons as a link game, one of the link secrets has you deliver a message back to yet another Goron back in Labrynna. And when you do so, said Goron remarks he's never heard such a thing and makes sure to make sure every goron knows this secret...
Uh.. what about the legend being about Skyward Link? Literally he meets the predecessors of the Goron race.
Jimb's gun has an alternate fire mode of fire bees. It's briefly mentioned in season 3 episode 2, practically a throw away line. I'm glad I could contribute to the key discourse of this video. Oh hey look, extra content about Zelda!
But how do you know that? Season 2 is only teasered, what are you blabbering about a season 3?!?
This man has traveled back in time to tell us about the special Burning Bee Blast he pulls off in the season 3 finale to [spoilers] just so he could out Chekhov's Gun the Chekhov's Gun.
I don't know what it is that caused him to do it (determination? spite? gumption? apathy? trauma?), but it's clearly an impressive amount of it.
@@wutmagna7222But now that we all know that, will the writers arbitrarily change that to “surprise” us? What kind of consequences will this have?
Your misunderstanding is due to your belief that Jimb's Bees season 3 is canon. Doctor Chim Richalds created the series and is the sole author of the Jimb's Bees so Disney's ownership of the ip doesn't mean they can create new canon, it's mere vanfiction (vandalism fiction).
Broooo I've wanted to watch that forever, where can you watch it?! Amazon Disappointment?! Disney minus?!
I love the idea that a few blocks randomly appearing caused a butterfly effect chain reaction that led to Link dying.
I mean if they block (no pun intended) progression maybe they do
Though they could also just.... have been sent FORWARD in time.
If they were sent back in time they wouldn't have moved at all.
It was poorly timed and link accidentally telefrags his alternate self
@solalabell9674 "That was cool, pun entirely intended."
@@kendrajade6688maybe they get send back to the time, like back to the skyward time (there are similar cubes in the surface that can be struck to obliterate them and generate a chest in the sky)
Regarding the time blocks in OoT, Link is actually moving them between child/adult timelines. If you send a block away as adult Link, you can revisit it as child Link and see it there. The reverse is true as well, the blocks that are summoned as adult are visible beforehand to child. There are 1 or 2 exceptions due to weird flag stuff, but it's a real mechanic.
As for whether it splits the timeline, I'd guess not because you can visit the block again and send it back to the other timeline, which implies it only travels between the same two timelines that Link does. Whereas Zelda sends Link back to before they ever met, which is a unique situation.
I guess I never tried that. Interesting. So the Ocarina DOES do time travel in Ocarina of Time.
There is no "Child Timeline" during active gameplay in Ocarina of Time as all of Link's actions after he was sealed inside the Sacred Realm for 7 years take place within the _Adult Timeline_ until Zelda sends him back to before Ganondorf's audience with the king. All the blocks he moves around across time are changing place within the Adult Timeline without any effect in the new timeline which was created after Adult Zelda sent Link back days before Ganondorf's attack of Hyrule Castle.
@@javiervasquez625 You are absolutely correct. I just couldn't think of a better way to refer to the child gameplay segments of OoT.
@@javiervasquez625Good point, you're definitely right. Never considered it, but the Child Timeline doesn't start until Link goes back at the very end.
@@brosephlacasquevtuber The blocks mimic the timeshift stones in Skyward Sword, the difference being the raw timeshift stones change the timeline in a fixed area and the time differential is thousands of years.
Isn't it possible that the difference between Zelda and Impa going to the past and Link planting the tree of life is simply a matter of perspective? Imagine the latter from the perspective of Groose. After Link goes back in time and plants the tree, to Groose it has always been there so to him it would look like a closed loop. The tree was always there because Link was always going to travel back in time. The only reason we see it as a self correcting timeline is because we get to see it from Links perspective, the perspective of the time traveler. While when Zelda goes to the past we're in the same position as Groose was before. To us it looks like a closed loop because we don't see it from the perspective of the time traveler.
This would imply that when Zelda first arrived at the sealed grounds she couldn't see herself there frozen in amber because she hadn't instigated that closed time loop yet. That would then also imply that since she wasn't there to maintain the seal Demise/The Imprisoned would have already escaped. So on Zelda's first trek through the surface, before establishing the time loop, she would've been evading either the kaiju avocado or the demon lord himself. All that just makes the supposed cut Zelda playthrough of Skyward Sword that much more awesome in my mind.
Except link also travels back in time and witnesses zelda seal herself in the amber.
So time is relative to each person. How a person comprehends time is determined by when and what they did to affect time. Because Link changed time, he sees how it changed due to his actions, and since Groose didn't change time, he doesn't think time has changed. Did I get that right?
@@LordDarnerthat seems like it makes sense to me 😂
Unfortunately this explanation doesn’t work with Impa’s bracelet.
One thing I'd like to mention about Oracle of Ages is that there's NPCs in the present who comment on how the tower is getting bigger. The tower is being built in the past, so in the present, the timeline would be correcting itself for that, but the fact that people other than Link are observing this is very interesting.
I wonder if that NPC used to play in that area as a kid, but would be unable to do so in the current situation, and the only way the timeline can self-correct is if *he notices that discrepancy*.
this is what causes mandela effects. self-correcting single timeline, but memories of what used to be the present bleed over
40:53 Oh Skyward Sword, not even your shitty timetravel could make me hate you
Also I love Fi and did cry when she said goodbye
Fi evolved as a character, what game was this guy playing?! He missed all the cool ice skating.
And we all pogged when the master sword in BotW made the Fi sound 😂
And one of the big points of the video is that Zelda time travel consistently does two contradictory things within the same game
@@redtutel but importantly, never a timeline split, except for OoT
Yeah, I'll accept any criticisms of Skyward Sword's mechanics, but I will hear no such disrespect to Fi. She might be somewhat annoying as a companion, but she's never once allowed my Wiimote to die while playing. She's exactly as graceful as the spirit of the Master Sword should be.
19:20 about that, zelda's stone is rauru's stone from the future, so theres a duplicated stone in the past
Zelda duscovered the ultimate duplication glitch
Totally not cannon, but it would be funny if that's the main reason Demise hated Hylia. He found a glitch in time to get all powerful and she was like no.
They kept patching it but clearly it's an in-game mechanic, now patch your story!
This obviously means that item duplication was an intentional inclusion for the story. Ignore the fact that they patched it
the zelda universe is essentially a computer simulation (in universe). the twilight realm is the recycling bin. (they even have circuit board-patterns) the goddesses are system admins. divine magical items are world edit tools. change my mind.
@@proclarushtaonasat When you go high up enough in every single fantasy genre's cosmic hierarchy, everything becomes robots and computers.
I would've argued the bootstrap and the self correcting stuff happens by perspective. Like, if you're the one performing it, it looks like a McFly situation to you in specific, whereas if someone else performs it, it creates a bootstrap situation for the witnesses.
It doesn't explain the mess that is the end of Skyward Sword but hey I've tried.
it's weird to explain, but in Zelda (and most media) time travel phenomena always takes form in tools. Time Travel is by a means of some 'thing', or 'magic' or 'blessing'. It just so happens that people can wield these things and also become a part of that process. In other words, every form of time travel IS a bootstrap paradox (within a given timeline). By being the one conducting the time travel, you then become a part of the self-correcting timeline itself, able to see the self-correction happen with your own two eyes.
The only reason why we ever see bootstrap paradoxes is because we're not the ones doing the time-travelling. This seems pretty consistent across the series (unless I'm forgetting something). If a bootstrap paradox is a "loop" or a circle, "McFly"ing a timeLINE would be the process of bending that line into a circle, if that makes sense.
@@zzthedon4k I don't fully think this could work with all closed loops. Because loops that happen because the future version of someone travels to the past to affect the situation of their past can create loops that only affect the past and not future so there's no self-correcting future at least unless you can argue that the correction happens in that closed loop which in my understanding is something that doesn't apply to McFly time travel.
I could be wrong though and usually time travel is affected by how the writer uses it so there's bound to be inconsistencies between different media projects. For reference in this comment I was talking about both Harry Potter and the prisoner of Azkaban and that one episode of My Little Pony.
Doesn’t apply to OoT either with the Song of Storms. Link still experiences it as a closed loop, even though he is the one instigating it, which under this line of reasoning should make it a McFly scenario.
11:36 I've NEVER seen a person even MENTIONING these blocks. Thats the best explaination for the Downfall Timeline I've ever heard.
I’m gonna meet someone several years from now called Jimb (with a b), I’ll spontaneously recall this video, and shout out- “JIMB’S GUN SHOOTS BEES…!”
Minor detail about Majora’s Mask vs OOT: In the former, it’s implied that Link is blessed by “The Goddess of Time.” There’s no telling what sort of effect divine intervention vs Zelda’s mojo might have.
there is a somewhat popular theory that Hylia is the goddess of time
@@danielderamus-km2ls I think it was always intended to be the case that the Goddess of Time was supposed to be Nayru, and Goddess of Time is simply another name for her (yes she is the Goddess of Wisdom, but Wisdom is also directly linked to Time in some cases). However, once Hylia was created as a concept, its reasonable to conclude that Hylia is probably the Goddess of Time now.
@@JaidynReiman Zelda's secret stone power being both light and time in tears of the kingdom implies that Hylia is the Goddess of Light and Time at the same time.
You missed the Phantom Hourglass, and Phantom Sword. Once the hourglass is forged into hilt, and with the aid of the spirit of courage and time, the sword can be used to freeze Bellum, the final boss, in a way extremely similar to the Stasis rune. In theory, the hourglass itself may use some form of time magic when protecting you from the harmful environment in the game's main dungeon, though this is arguably instead just the hourglass using the sands it contains as a substitute for the life force you would lose. This example doesn't exactly bring anything new to the table, but it does show another refined tool responsible for time manipulation
The clock item in the original Zelda game is also capable of freezing all enemies on the screen, so there’s another one.
The Phantom Sword + Ciela didn't freeze Bellum like Stasis, it froze the entire world (or at least entire area)
That is interesting. If the Phantom Hourglass is a similar effect to Stasis since it has no connection to Hylia at all. At least from what I can remember of that game. Maybe the Ocean King is just the Hylia equivalent for the realm Phantom Hourglass takes place in?
This would all fit into the category he covered with Sonias time powers they arnt true time travel but taking a object through dimensions to a spot and state it was in the past or freezing it into the past.
What's so beautiful about the song of storms is, just like the windmill and just like the time travel, the song goes around and around in a loop, forever.
6:34 Zelda saying "Now go home, Broseph. Regian your lost time" is the hardest thing I've ever seen in Hyrule Historia.
I really never thought about how the Shard of the Mirror of Twilight ended up in the past... now I am never gonna not think about it.
same
What if, when the mirror was fragmented, its trans-dimensional abilities were in flux and as that shard passed over the ruins of the Temple of Time, which in theory could be a focal point for temporal and/or dimensional flux around it, the reaction between the two energies caused some sort of rift to form that launched the shard back in time. And much as the Snowpeak Shard corrupted Yeta, this Shard mutated one of the spiders in the Temple into Armogohma. Now, if this is actually the Temple of Light (which is what I've always headcanoned), the theory still works but instead of being transported through TIME, it's transported to the temple in the Sacred Realm.
@@KamenRiderGumo I mean... sure. Let's go with that. Why not.
My explaination for OoT's and MM's Time Travel is that in OoT Zelda sends him back in Time, making him JUMP BACK IN TIME, but in MM Link uses the Ocarina of Time to REWIND TIME, causing the timeline seize to exist. Jumping through Time creates another Timelines and Rewinding Time is... rewinding everything that happened.
Except when Link "jumps" back in time at the end of OoT, the Link that lands in the past isn't an adult. He's a child. Meaning Link himself was physically rewound in the time travel process.
Unlike what happens in TotK, OoS, SS or HW:AoC, which would be better characterized as a "jump" through time.
@@brosephlacasquevtuber soo... is my explaination soild? With the addition of Links body gets rewound?
@@Miksen25 You and Broseph's explanations would both work if Link was just de-aged and then sent to the past as if he had gone through a time gate in SS. But then there would be two child Links running around Hyrule (for the sake of brevity I will call the one who went back in time Link B and the original Link A) at the same time. This potentially messes up the plot, because it's shown at the end of OoT that Link goes to see Zelda. Link A already was going to see Zelda, so depending on his timing either Link B reached her first and Zelda is left wondering why Link came back seemingly ignorant to everything he said about Ganondorf, or Link A got there first, and Zelda is left wondering why Link didn't mention Ganondorf earlier when Link B arrives.
@@BitcrushedMozart or even simpler: Zelda rewound Time for Link but she remained with everyone else. He also said smth like "it depends who uses it and if the person uses it for himself or someone else
@@Miksen25 Hot take, she only sent Link's soul/memories back. Which overwrote/merged with his past self. -I can't tell you what she did with his adult body, because TH-cam will erase my comment...-
You know both points of the timeline breaking come from Zelda's Lullaby, oot Zelda plays it to send Link to the child timeline, and Terrako plays it to open the portal to the past, i never actually noticed that before
Might have something to do with Zelda's Lullaby and the Ballad of the Goddess being mirrored versions of each other?
oh wait, inverting a magical song also inverts it;s effects, the song of time (fi's theme fragment, so master sword related) being played inverted makes the time go slower instead of going back and playing it duplicating it's notes makes you go faster forward in time, so zelda's lullaby being the inverted of the song made to represent the godess of light and time would have to have some influence in the world.
Weird that both instances of Single Timeline Correction in games that usually use Causal Loops involve magical foliage.
And that the instance of a Causal Loop in the game that usually uses Single Timeline correction involves a refined earthen good, for that matter. Maybe it has something to do with a human touch causing a switch in mode?
7:08 I feel like a lot of fans don't realize this is how the "divine prank" happened in Twilight Princess. I've said this for years. It makes so much sense.
I was always certain this was the truth. Link still has the Triforce of Courage when he goes back in time, and for whatever reason, he still has the past version of the Triforce of Courage (while the version he had in the adult timeline remains there), and so the Triforce automatically split. The "divine prank" was a result of Zelda's actions at the end of OOT, which still caused the Triforce to be split apart and Ganondorf to get a piece, he just wasn't aware he had it until his execution (and neither did Zelda nor Link; they ended up passing the Triforce pieces down to their descendants).
Ganondorf had the Triforce, but because he wasn't aware of it he couldn't tap into it and win the war to result in the events of OOT happening all over again. Instead he is eventually defeated and executed, but it activates as a last ditch effort to keep him alive.
@@JaidynReiman Years ago, I saw something that was going through the creation myth story and the Imprisoning War story as told in LttP's manual and comparing the official English translation against a literal word for word translation of what was actually said in the Japanese manual as well as the article writer's effort at a more accurate translation, and there was an interesting tidbit in there that's stuck with me. An interesting detail that got lost in the official translation. The way Nintendo originally talked about the Triforce in Japanese they said that it contains emblems that are released when it's touched to form a connection between the person and the Triforce's power. So the Triforce marking on the hand is not direct possession of any piece of the Triforce itself, the marking is just simply a remote link. The implication of this concept for TP's "divine prank" is that Link from the end of OoT carried his connection to a Triforce piece with him into the newly formed timeline he was sent to, and this remote access made it possible for the Triforce in that new timeline to start its own selection of bearers without anybody touching it. The Triforce was just resting in the Sacred Realm like it was supposed to and then it picked up a signal that a Courage piece bearer was out there, and it was just an automated process from there that bearers for Wisdom and Power needed to be selected as well.
Wait but if the Triforce of Courage shattered when Link was sent to the new Child Timeline why would he then have it in the Child Timeline at all? The Triforce he had is still in the Adult Timeline now shattered for WW Link to later collect. In the Child Timeline the Triforce as a whole should still be in the sacred realm. Also if the Child Timeline has Link never meeting Zelda until then(and thus Link warning her about Ganondorf) how was he able to be with the Master Sword in the Temple of Time at the end of the game in the first place? The Door of Time was only opened because he got the OoT from Zelda who in this new Child Timeline he has yet to meet, so the Door of Time should still be sealed.
@@JJAB91What happens is, when Link returns to the past, the connection he had with the future Triforce of Courage awakens the past Triforce of Courage, and in turn it awakens the other pieces that go to Zelda and Ganondorf
Meanwhile the future Triforce of Courage splits in the Adult Line as there is no hero to wield it
As for the Door of Time, he opened it from inside
Jacob's gun is filled with bees. Bees have a defense mechanism where they group together, vibrant and friction an enemy to death. So since Jacob's gun is FILLED WITH BEE'S, a ball of the flaming dead is possible.
Oh shit yea jimbs brother does have a honey bee gun, to bad jimbs gun is warrior bees
To answer your question about the Blocks of Time....
Yes. If you access the areas in which the blocks appear, you can travel backward / forward in time and see that when the blocks are present in one timeline, they are not present in the other.
The developers originally wanted to have a series of puzzles in which sending the Blocks of Time into the past was an essential part of the Spirit Temple, but the mechanic was too unwieldy and complicated so it was ditched in favor of the bifurcated temple in the final product. But the programming and mechanics of the blocks of time were never removed from the game's code, so when Link plays the Song of Time in front of a block as an adult, that same block appears in the same spot as a child (but most areas are inaccessible so the vast majority of players never notice).
The quickest and easiest way to check this is to check the Block of Time in Goron City, since it's one of the few areas accessible to both Child Link and Adult Link.
My favorite type of video is one where not just the creator, but the viewers go insane too... great vid!
The slow descent into insanity is perfect.
33:48 I've been saying Patrick Warburton would voice a perfect Groose for years and nobody listened to me
You could say Jim owns a… Bee-Bee gun.
*Jimb
The master Oogway bit was MASTERFUL 😂
She wants to avoid having to explain the timetravel.
I think it's funny to think the OoT time blocks are sent to a time where some guy is keeping track of them and knows he has to move them when they show up
The Master Sword in Zelda games isn't bound by time. So, if you place it in the past and travel to the future, it'll still be there. It's a neat trick that lets it appear whenever needed!
Okay then explain the two master swords in TotK 😅
@@halyoalex8942 We never see 2 Master Swords in TotK at once. We see one, then we send it back in time, then we see it again healed up later. Yes the Light dragon is seen before that, but the Master Sword is not visible from that distance so there’s no guarantee it’s there.
@@TimeAxis Then, what is the reason Zelda became the dragon? If Zelda isnt healing the Master Sword on her forehead in dragon form, why does she become the dragon in the first place?
@@anlkucuk6756 The Secret Stone looked tasty
...or she concluded that the only way for her to get back to her timeline or to aid Link was to become an immortal dragon and wait over ten thousand years
@@anlkucuk6756 The Master Sword could have been there when she had it, but temporarily disappeared while Link had it.
it might be a power inherent to link that he is immune to time due to being a consistent resurrection of the same spirit he is always in the timeline at every point
...Okay, I was going to defend my belief of the 'Skyward Sword should have caused a timeline split' theory (note, I don't think it's a timeline that we've seen, I just think it should exist)...but your recap of what exactly goes down has made me realize there are a LOT of weird details here I didn't remember. For instance, I misremembered Fi's goodbye taking place in the PRESENT, not the PAST - which, yeah, makes that VERY weird - and I DEFINITELY didn't remember that Zelda wasn't there in the past anymore.
I still like Skyward Sword a lot, but I am seeing the inherent plotholes here. It's especially weird that they decided to make it so that you could see Zelda's sealed self if you peaked through the doors, but didn't take into account the pedestal the Master Sword gets placed in, even though it's CLEARLY something that, like the Goddess Statue and Zelda's crystal AND Impa's identity, was getting set up for all along. All they had to do was do what I MISREMEMBERED them as doing and having Fi's goodbye be in the present, and then have the pedestal, I dunno, appear out of the ground (I don't think they should have had it there the whole time, because that would have given the whole thing away, and clearly they agree, but clearly they also didn't think HARD enough).
...And I think someone just plain fucked up on the Zelda crystal disappearing, especially given that there's an explicit line of dialogue from Impa referencing her still being there.
...All that being said, I still think Skyward Sword SHOULD have caused a timeline split, because it's the biggest instance of a grandfather paradox going unresolved I can think of in the games, AND it would have opened things up for where to take Zelda games in the future - ...but I'm aware now that things in the game don't back that up. Thanks for the info.
Safe to say things like the master sword and people like zelda will follow the rules while making thier own at the same time to fit whats happening
I knew you were going for Warburton for Groose and now that will forever be in my head
17:20 Ok but in OoT the time jumps are always the exact same amount so time passes in the past while link is in the future. from what we see in game the moment you plant these beans the sprout comes out in no time so they're clearly magical, what if the beans take EXACTLY the same amount as the time jump to turn into the flying platforms and right before that they're only a patch of grass? This is a totally normal and plausible way to explain how they work lol
What makes the beans magical is the fact that they can fly without any sort of scientific reason. You plant the seeds in the past and 7 years later they are full magic plants, pretty self explanatory.
I see what you mean at it would work 😂
Mad convinient though that when you plant them, you can see their sprout immediately, only for that sprout to apparently recess in the next 7 years, leaving ZERO trace of the sapling until the VERY moment it would be fully grown, at which point it suddenly, instantly pops out in full bloom for Link to use.
@@nothinghere8434 maybe it hides underground in it's final stages of development to avoid being eaten by predators in it's most vulnerable state, after that it can just fly away to escape!!!
@@Poruasecas
Haha, maybe xD.
@@PoruasecasIt could be that they instead fly up extremely high to be safe while they finish growing, and then comes back down to spread it's seeds or something.
Here are my 2 cents:
1: I don't think recall actually rewinds an object in state as it doesn't un-melt ice blocks for example.
2: It could be that the loop in Majora's Mask is the "delete the future" sort similar to how it works in Outer Wilds (but that's beside the point) even though I have no proof to back it up and am just postulating.
3: I know it's a really shakey explanation with little to no definitive proof to back it up but could gate-of-time SCST travel and its percieved (!) effects depend on who is time traveling? As said in the video, SCST travel has a habit of retconning the future, for example Groose who goes from "what a nice empty spot to plant a tree in wink wink nudge nudge" to "what a nice tree that had always been here" because Link took an action in the past (planting the seed) and then traveled to the future, effectively letting the past "play itself out" but in a changed state (with the tree being there) resulting in a different present (with the tree). Since Zelda traveled back using the Lanayru gate and did the same to Link as Link did to Groose (changing the past by sealing herself) but Link wasn't an active participant in the travel, maybe what we play through when first arriving in the sealed temple (thus seeing Zelda's crystal) could be a retconned version created by story events that have yet to unfold (at least from Link's perspective).
That could be a way to resolve the problem of "ripple effect proof memory" time travelers and video game players (on account of the game being unable to affect the memories of a real life player) have. We the players are supposed to know what Link knows and after Zelda travels back and seals herself, what Link knows would change without him noticing because he did not partake in traveling to the past with the Lanayru gate and thus would be as effected as Groose was when planting the seed of life. Because the player could not be affected, we basically play through the memories of a time travel affected and retconned Link up to the point Zelda travels back in time.
Is it a shakey try to explain the inconsistency with the sudden causal loop in a seemingly SCST time travel system I cannot proove? Yes. Is the idea of the player being time-travel-retconned worth considerating? In my opinion also yes.
TLDR: Since Link didn't travel back in Lanayru, he was retconned just like Groose was when planting the seed of life and the crystal we see when first arriving at the sealed temple is a result of the player not being able to be retconned and thus we are playing through a retconned Link's memories in some way.
Anyhow I have also thought a lot about Wild-era games and their timeline placement and have come to the conclusion that they all happen AFTER every other game after an unknown event (maybe Hyrule warriors 1? Its canonicity is debatable though) that somehow fused all 3 OoT timelined together. The kingdom of Hyrule subsequently fell (either at a later point or as a result of the brutal timeline fusion seeing as one Hyrule was full of monsters and a deranged feral Ganondorf and another one was literally flooded) only to be re-founded by Rauru the goat, que TotK's past, the great calamity of 10.000 years ago, BotW and AoC and TotK.
I also completely agree that if a timeline split happens, it happens immediately upon traveling back. Because otherwise you had to define an threshold of "interference" that, upon being exceeded, causes a split. But where would you put said threshold? Would the timeline split if you change larger politics? What about kicking a rock? What about merely breathing? (which at this point would practically be the same as causing a split by traveling back but I digress) Either you cause a timeline split immediately upon traveling back ir you don't cause a split at all.
Thank you everyone for reading through my confusing ted talk.
Outer Wilds doesn't "delete the future". Outer Wilds postulates that because data isn't physical, it can be sent through a black hole to a computer or a person. At the beginning of the loop, you recieve the data from the previous loop because data is small enough conceptually that the universe doesn't break if it has no origin. Knowledge doesn't physically exist, as it were. Each loop simply never occured. This is why if you jump through the black hole in the ATP, your body exists in the ATP, but also back at the campsite you recieve your foreknowledge.
This is also why the travel log keeps recieving updates. If you look at the computer in your ship, it's accidentally been connected to the ATP network too. It's got the glowy lines on it.
@@Xahnel yes. But the fact that data from a paradoxical source (e.g. a future that will never come to pass) can comfortingly exist means that in some way you are rewriting the future simply by having a different string of memories than last loop beamed into your brain.
Your Patrick Warburton -esque impression of Groose was fantastic. Please give us more.
I think an issues with the time travel dilemma is that we are seeing things from Link’s perspective IE the person going through time.
It seems that each time Link messes with history we get the resolvement time, like with the pot or the seed.
While whenever someone else does time travel we get the closed loop time, like Zelda’s Amber or the timeline split.
And this makes a lot of sense now that I think of it because it’s all point of view.
So what you're saying is technically everything is all true...from a certain point of view.
The issue with this is that it doesn't explain the Song of Storms issue. Link is directly changing history in that one, but its a bootstrap which wouldn't fit the "if someone else does time travel" rule.
It makes sense that Hylia, who loves and adores her Hero, would be futzing with time to make his shenaniganery through it possible. No matter what Link does, the timeline is unbroken, because Time loves him. Other people have to Live With The Consequences, because Time does not love _them._
45:13 i love Link slashing at the Thunder Dragon’s skull in frustration about not being able to save him, idk why it’s fricken hilarious to me.
7:26 You’re not alone, I like the Triforce shard hunt too. It’s got a lot of cool moments and areas, and the general vibe of searching the seas to rebuild a lost treasure is awesome.
I clicked and IMMEDIATELY forgot what I was watching because of the intro
38:55 THANK you. I really love what they *tried* to do (but didn't try that hard) with Fi. I did a lot of mental fanfixing of her cutscenes with the divine flames, playing through that game.
Speaking of the divine flames, that would have been the PERFECT opportunity to give her a character arc. As you upgrade the sword, Fi herself could upgrade both in appearance and personality into something closer to human.
That way, she mirrors Girahim's descent into madness and personality-less servitude as Demise's sword spirit, while also gaining something of her own to be actually sacrificed when she seals herself away.
But I guess all the good character arc writing went to Groose in that game.
@@brosephlacasquevtuber They did exactly the same thing with the "Demon king? Secret stones?" cutscenes in _Tears_ too. Perfect time for characterization. Have the elder goron tell Yunobo not to eat the secret stone even though it looks tasty. SOMETHING.
Nevermind that I'd have cast Bludo, Yona, and maybe Buliara--as the sages instead of the champion descendants again.
49:10 look, I smashed that subscribe button and clicked the bell on your very first zelda maps video! and you cant get rid of me THAT easily!
I think the answer is simple. Jimb pulled the trigger and shot out a swarm of bees. The bees attacked a random person within the building, causing them to freak out and knock over a bunch of stuff. This included a bottle of water and a pair of scissors, conveniently landing on an electrical cable and causing sparks to fly, which ignited the carpeted floor of the building and caused it to burn down.
Whew, that was simple. I really enjoyed your video, though i don’t know if i dig the super long outro about zelda.
The vase could be explained by the goron having a vase made in the time between present and past, but Link makes a McFly change by giving it to him before he has it made
24:41 Hey wait a minute, that's... weird... it's called the Tune of Time when you acquire it here, but in the inventory it's called the Tune of Ages.
Yeah, odd. I've been playing through OoA recently and I thought that was odd too.
Maybe the Goron Vase gets broken by someone in the family, and quietly replaced by a copy that becomes the original?
Actually there is a Good Logical Reason between Majora's Mask and Ocarina of Time.
The difference between them is that in Ocarina of Time, Zelda sending Link back to his Childhood Time before their meeting was a In-Universe Key Event. Meanwhile, Link's traveling back to the First Day in Majora's Mask is a game mechanic and not a key event in the story, with the exception of when it is first used. So, every time Link travels back to the first day in Majora's Mask it is not a key story event, but rather a Game Mechanic and nothing more. Nintendo was fully aware that the Player cannot complete all of the Side and Main Quests in 3 Days, so they obviously gave the Player the ability to travel back to the First Day so that they could complete all of the quests.
Game Mechanic will never be a Confirmation canon event because it is a Game mechanic, and nothing more; In-Universe is the real way canonized something because as longer something really happened withing the Story; then it is Canon. Which is why the Zelda Timeline is not Canon considering that it is based on faulty Eveidences such as Songs, Easter Eggs, and Reference along with Nintendo Interviews and some Books that all they do is Copy and Paste those Easter Eggs, Songs, and Reference instead to actually In-Universe Events.
I always assumed the Master Sword being gone in the Temple of Time in TP was when Link had it in OoT and the dungeon is just happening at the same time.
If this time travel occurred in any other timeline, that would be a valid excuse, and one I was going to use for this video.
But then I remembered that the Child Timeline branches before the sword is drawn and none of the events of the adult era of Ocarina of time took place.
@@brosephlacasquevtuber That's.... a fair point. I never thought of it that way. I just always like the idea. 😂 Also fantastic video btw. Lol
@@brosephlacasquevtuber I just always assumed that the Master Sword works like the Triforce. If it’s pulled in the present day and Link travels back in time it will be “gone” like the Triforce is.
We’ve never had an instance where we get the sword and can travel back in time and visit its pedestal. Twilight Princess is the first and only time it’s happened.
Zelda never goes to the lost woods or talks about visiting in TOTK. The closest we get is seeing the light dragon, and if I remember correctly that’s after Link sends the sword back.
The Master Sword is a divine relic powered by the four goddesses, so it doesn’t necessarily have the follow the laws of physics
@@brosephlacasquevtuberBut the events take place none the less as it shows such happening in the adult timeline it has been brought up that the events of the child timeline still took place, meaning link still saved ruto and the opened the cave fir the gorons, as majoras mask does not happen until 6 month later after he is sent back in time by Zelda. Now the door of time may be connected back to the instance of the temple he removed the sword from. But otherwise the seven years he trapped is unaccessable without the master sword itself.
The only good explanation is a bullshit one:
This sends you to 7 years after Child Link... in the Child Timeline. At some point, the Hero of Time decided to grab the Master Sword at some point for something or other as an adult, and the second he was gone, the Hero of Twilight snuck in.
Why? I don't fuckin' know. Maybe he noticed he still had the Triforce and wanted to see what the deal was. Maybe his sword broke and he needed a spare.
We know from the fact that the Hero's Shade is adult-size that he at least lived to adulthood, so it's not _technically_ impossible. Stupid, but not impossible.
11:44 perfect!!!
13:21 the Ravioli disrespect
13:07 BEANS
13:08 oh yeah! Its all coming together
Also, when demise defeat would spilt the timeline wouldn't there be a timeline where all the games did not happen/happen in another way?
That's the argument.
Some people propose that parallel to Ocarina of Time, in the timeline where Demise dies in the past, is where the the imprisoning war of TotK takes place, or the events of Four Sword Adventures happen, or whatever other lore inconsistency they take the most issue with gets resolved.
But I'm convinced a timeline split simply doesn't happen there.
@@brosephlacasquevtuber
It feels like a cop out theory that's 99% untrue
Nintendo wasn't planning very well with any of the timeline stuff
(Besides some exceptions ofc) And them now not even mentioning any time line stuff is just a way out I guess
My problem with no timeline split in SS was always, if they killed Demise in the past, exactly what WAS the overripe avocado Link fought in the present? And why would Zelda in the past have to keep watch over a dead Demise ...
It just raises too many questions. 😵💫
@@ravenebony2267
Did you actually watch this video? Because the author very clearly addresses that point.
@@akiranara6404 every minute of it. The explanation was not compelling to me on that point.
46:15 i forgot about Jimb's gun and was abruptly thrown back when it came back lmao
Now you need to make a series about jimb, I’m invested.
Before this gets out of hand, I would like to request a patent on the term "full of bees" as I am the one who coined the term originally and you owe me royalties for using it in your video.
Tad Williams War of the Flowers published in 2000 had fairy cops shooting bee guns. But I hadn't seen it show up since then and love it when it happens.
man that intro was so funny to me this is immediately one of my new favourite channels
This video is the equivalent of someone mistaking pluging an extension cord into itself as creating infinite power and you explaining in depth why that doesnt work.
29:37 Yeah but... thats not the master sword. the sword in the adult timeline is explicitly NOT the master sword, as it was sent back in time with link in Oot. Which is weird, because if i had a nickel for every time there was a powerful sword with a blueish-purple hilt, that was held in a pedestal for safe keeping, that also had time travel powers, i would have two nickels, which isnt alot, but its weird that it happened twice.
I remember hearing somewhere that the blocks actually do travel back and forth in time which you can see if you travel back and forth yourself to check after moving the block. Take this with a grain of salt though as i have no clue where i heard this
"This... is Jimb."
i'm already hooked let's go
Toward the end of the video, you say that the Skyward Sword time travel, if it were to create a split, would create three separate timelines. Two where the bad guys were defeated in different ways and one where Link fails in his adventure. Isn't this exactly how the official Zelda timeline explains the split in Ocarina? Two where Ganon is defeated in slightly different ways (one where he's a beast and one where he's a man, even. Just like The Imprisoned and Demise) and another where Link dies and fails. In this way, it's exactly like the Ocarina split. If it's intentional, you could even look at it as an intentional homage. The only issue would be, "Is there a time travel based issue that would prevent Link from beating Ganon in OoT?" You do bring up this idea in your video; the song of time blocks. If working on the other Ocarina-based time travel, they would split the timelines as well.
This video is still really interesting and comprehensive, though. It was interesting to bring all the examples up. I also love how you used Terrako as secondary evidence. Even as a member of the Skyward Sword Defense Squad, I still could appreciate how well this was made.
I think its very unlikley that it would be an intentional homage since the first instance (That I am aware of) of a nintendo confirmed timeline split is in the Hyrule Historia, which was released AFTER Skyward Sword. So unless Nintendo was sure on timeline split before they offically announced it (which I think is unlikely due to how inconsistent they were with the timeline), it is unlikley a homage.
I do agree though, that it is a nice coincidence and I thought a similar thing when he first said the 3 timeliens from SS.
@@Mineman1998 The first confirmation was in 2007 by Aonuma, Nintendo Dream February 2007.
@@Ahouro We knew there was a split after Ocarina of time; what took until later to reveal was the *third* timeline.
@@RobertJW He said the first instance of confirmation of a split, the first confirmation of a split was in 2007.
This matter reminds my of the sacred realm discusion, the game developers will not ever agree in what that real is.
I need 10 seasons and a movie of that Guns that shoot random things series NOW!
how many bees does jimbs gun shoot exactly?
Groose sounding like Patrick War burton is my new favourite head cannon
I'm less than a minute in and I've already had to pause. Was that Buck Bumble? Someone else remembers Buck Bumble?
You know it is possible that everytime we see an apparent self-healing single timeline in Zelda what we are actually seeing is a timeline convergence - with the pre and post time travel timelines being merged. Usually the events are subtle so it is not really noticeable except for subtle changes that only the traveller is aware of but then there is the end of Skyward Sword which is either a timeline convergence or a mess.
Also there is one piece of Time travel in Skyward Sword that you failed to mention... probably because it is past to future which shouldn't usually mess with the timeline and is not seen on screen in game.
That is young Impa being sent to the future to rescue Zelda and bring her to the past.
It may be that Young Impa's arrival in the present made Zelda's time travel inevitable and forced a change in the timeline before Link even reached the surface.
Impa was commanded to pass through the gate of time and going by the rules of the gate of time, this will not change the past or future.
Okay, I have a thought about Skyward Sword.
Link's actions throughout the entire game was a massive Bootstrap Loop. He never *killed* Demise, and his actions "merely" Sealed him. The Sealing of Demise into the Avocado were what led to Zelda being kidnapped by Ghirahim so that he could be unsealed and thus Link heading down to the surface and setting up the dominos that lead to him sealing Demise which set up the dominoes again for Zelda to be kidnapped. When Link returns to his time, he returns to *his* time, not to the beginning of the loop, since this loop only exists from the perspective of Demise/Ghirahim.
The only thing that line of logic doesn't attest to is the sudden inclusion of the Pedestal of Time, but that I feel is a case of Hylia now being able to step in once the Bootstrap that seals Demise has been enforced with its completion, with Hylia moving Link back to his future through the Gate.
The main reason this doesn't cause a timeline split is that, unlike Link being sent *back* in time, he got sent *forward*. His actions in the future doesn't change the past and thus wouldn't collapse the Bootstrap that leads to the sealing, with him being sent *after* the moment he went back in time. This explains why the events of the game still happen, with the Goddess Statue being on the surface and Zelda meeting up with her father being examples.
Maybe I'm talking nonsense.
I always wondered why the fallen hero timeline was dependent on Link dying during the final battle, like if he died at any other point before Ganon would have won regardless of the battle.
At that point is the most likely, as he has the entire triforce and zelda has her powers, kicking off the events of ALttP. Any other time link dies would have Ganondorf needing to still find links body, and finding zelda while she's powered up.
Yo awesome video, great explanations, funny leading through the explanations, I’m looking forward to your growrh
This is a really interesting video, and Im glad for the deep dive.
16:45 Just gonna let you know that somebody (me) caught your VeggieTales reference. You have my respect.
"So that would make him a cheese-headed bean boy!"
"This is not cheese on my head, it is a hat! A yellow hat."
Thanks, I'm glad you enjoyed it! Comments like this are precisely why I love putting tiny blink-and-you'll-miss-it deep cut references in these vids.
Here's my understanding and theory of it :
- Some causal loops are true causal loops (a causal loop that also happens from the point of view of the person time travelling (example : song of storm in OOT))
- Some causal loops are self correcting single timelines from the point of view of the people not time travelling (example : Zelda's amber in SS)
- All self correcting single timelines are timeline splits from the point of view of someone time travelling and coming back to the present in the new timeline they created.
So basically every time travel, exept true causal loops, creates a new timeline, we just don't always get to see them.
My theory still works in back to the future, because even though the guy who stopped his parents from being in love dissappeared, I think the timeline he comes from still exists, but he's dissapearing because he's currently stuck in the timeline he's not supposed exist in. So he could theoretically go back to his original timeline before dissapearing. (please note that I haven't watched this movie so I'm just basing this on the information the video tells us)
As for the end of skyward sword, my theory is that there are indeed 2 timelines, like every other time travel (exept true causal loops), one where Link kills Demise in the present, and one where Link kills Demise in the past.
At the end of the game, we return to the timeline where he killed Demise in the present, that's why it doesn't look like a self correcting single timeline.
As for the master sword, I believe because it's magic and isn't bound by time, it manifests itself in every timelines at the same time, that's why it suddenly seems to appear in the wrong timeline. (maybe because the world would be doomed if there was a timeline without it so Hylia made sure that it always exists)
As for Zelda's amber dissapearing in the past, I think that's just a mistake lol
I wanted to put forth for Majora's mask the amount of time being traveled is considerably less 7 years versus a couple days, it could also be likely that smaller jumps in time cause less of a strain and can be smoothed out easier.
16:40 That's what makes the beans magic!
29:40 OH MY FUCKING GOD, IT NEVER OCCURRED TO ME THAT I SHOULD HAVE REWINDED THE FALLING ROCKS OVER HYRULE
I like the bees analogy
I fucking love "IF THIS IS A GUN THAT SHOOTS FIREBALLS, WHY IS IT FULL OF BEES?!?!"
What if the magic beans only just happened to grow to full size after you just happen to return after having planted them?
And with the Gordon Vase, I figured maybe some Goron in that family line secretly replaced the Vase, like the previous one (the one Link gave) got too old or something. Otherwise that Vase would have lived eternities, forever.... It HAS to break down eventually, right?
So what you're saying is that Jimb's gun shoots bees, except in one or two episodes he can shoot bees that are on fire. And there are people in the show that have fire guns and can sometimes shoot bees from them. But it's inconsistent and clearly depends on if the writers needed a gun to shoot fire or bees depending on the plot beats of the particular episode.
But your argument is that Jimb's gun can't shoot fire because it's unable to make fire in all but 3 cases.
Just saying, your position relies just as much on "ignore these other instances" as anyone else's.
Skyward Sword's Time Gates seem to maintain the specific reality of the ones that go into the past to change things while also changing the present to reflect the new history it represents, adjusted to allow for the unaltered histories of the time travelers to still work. Link experiences the changes Zelda made as a bootstrap, but he experiences his own changes as a Mcfly. Groose, on the other hand, sees both Link's and Zelda's changes as bootstraps. Zelda, probably would have seen nothing behind the door at the back of the sealed temple when she first descended, because her being there was a Mcfly change she had not made yet. To make things even more confusing, she might have thought the Tree of Life looked pretty, because for her, that change would have been a bootstrap change.
FACT:
Jimb will be playable in Echoes of Wisdom with the bee gun.
I was always confused when hearing theories about a timeline split occurring during Skyward Sword. You’ve managed to perfectly break down the confusing mess that is Skyward Sword time travel, amazing work!!
Yeah. There is a lot to like about Skyward Sword, but that ending is kind of held together by duct tape and fan fiction, I tell you what.
minute 11 was amazing lol, but the whole video is amazing too tbh
I'm just gonna say I'm glad someone else has the same feelings about Fi and her departure at the end of SS
This was a really good video. Well done!
Subscribed to this channel from this video :3
Great video.
And even though I didn't have a splitting time theory on skyward sword, I felt attacked at the end and I loves it
I call my timeline theory the Entropy Timeline Theory (I don't know if entropy's the right word).
The more timelines there are, the higher a state of energy the timeline will be at. The universe wants to be at the lowest state of energy, so the timelines will pull each other together to eventual converge into one timeline again, like what eventually happens by the time of Breath of the Wild.
So the whole timeline is a single timeline with self-correction. Every alternate timeline is just temporary, it just sometimes takes a while to correct itself. Most of the time, it immediately fixes itself, but if the difference is to great, then it takes a while. A very long time from a human point of view, but a short time from the universe's point of view.
My other timeline theory is that there is a split with Majora's Mask.
One timeline would be were the moon fell and Link went back three day (every timeline were he went back would just converge because they have the same consequences). The other timeline would be were Link stops the moon and then returns to Hyrule.
From Hyrule's perspective, Termina getting destroyed doesn't really matter. It's the fact that Link is not in one of the timelines anymore. The Link from Twilight is the ancestor of the Hero of Time. So when Ganondorf returns when Twilight Princess would happen, there would be no Hero strong enough to oppose him. This is when A Link to the Past's Imprisoning War would happen. This is when the divergence would become to great and a new timeline would be solidified, creating the Downfall Timeline.
Edit: I think Ganondorf getting the Triforce could be the catalyst that causes the timeline splits. Someone getting the Triforce + time shenanigans creates a new timeline. In the Adult Timeline Ganondorf get's the Triforce, it splits apart, and then he is defeated. In the Child Timeline Ganondorf is defeated before he get's the Triforce, he only get's a piece because of Link and never touches the united thing. In the Downfall Timeline, Ganondorf eventual gets all three pieces of Triforce. The Triforce is a more absolute part of the Zelda universe then the flow of time, the three Golden Goddesses are above the Goddess of Time, so the timeline's self-correction cannot over power of the Triforce.
Perfect voice for Groose! A less-refined version of Patrick Warburton!
While I understand causal loops and a self-correcting timeline are conflicting rules of time travel that we through the perspective of the time travelers or audience of the time travelers can point out, I think it's important to note that from anyone else's point of view in these worlds the rules are consistent. From Groose's POV, as soon as Link planted the tree in the past it had always been there, even before he presumably witnessed Link go through the Gate of Time to plant it. To Groose, if he actually knew what Link was doing, after the change was made he'd assume "Link went to plant the tree that has always been here in the past because he knows it's meant to be here in the present." Though we as Link can identify a self-correcting single timeline here, to anyone else it would look the change had always happened because of the time travel and therefore like a causal loop. From Link's POV the crystal was always there even before Zelda physically entered the Gate of Time, looking to him like a causal loop, but it's entirely possible that at some point Zelda had been in a present day Sealed Temple without her crystal in it and only after sealing herself in the past would the crystal be in the present. From her POV what we see as a causal loop could just be the end result of a self-correcting timeline. So, if from an outside perspective all time travel seems to have already happened and any changes made seem predestined, but from the time traveler's perspective they're making a change that didn't always exist then the rules are technically consistent... in Skyward Sword specifically... except for Old Impa always having the bracelet because that's causal and was definitely already the case for all the time travelers in that instance even before the time travel.
TL;DR Skyward Sword's time travel could be seen as consistent if time travel is ruled as "seems causal for outsiders but self-correcting for time travelers" except the bracelet also being causal for the time travelers. The other games also don't follow those rules, mostly.
Age of Upheaval… yes please, I would enjoy that
Love me some "guy with guns who shoots things" 10/10 best show
Awesome ⏳️ Video!
This is my favorite Zelda timeline video.
13:22 Cool video, but i WON'T tolerate any more Teba slander.
who?
Here's a funny comment about Jimb for the algorithm's sake, I guess.
Real cool vid, thanks for the work!
I'm so down for this
Thinking about Skyward Sword, you can actually say the two gates of time act differently with only one slight plot hole. The gate that Zelda used was part of a causal loop but the gate activated by the Master Sword caused an auto correcting timeline. The only problem is that bracelet which can be seen on old Impa.
The timestones are actually easy to explain as well, just like you said about the recall ability, you are actually shifting time through the objects instead of actually moving through time.
Another fantastic, well constructed Zelda video that despite probably looking like the ravings of a madman to an outsider, is incredibly fascinating to a Zelda fan (...AKA, a fellow madman.) Also, love the use of Cadence of Hyrule music!
Yeah, i wanted to use some nonstandard tunes that go underappreciated in the Zelda video essay space. Glad you enjoyed!
6:25 omg thank you. Everyone makes that mistake and its so refreshing to hear someone address it
I think its easiest to say that "The Imprisoned" is not the same as "Demise." Demise is his full form, that can only be achieved through either getting to Zelda or getting to his sealed consciousness, should it still exist by the present time, within the Master Sword. Meanwhile The Imprisoned is just the raw evil energy of Demise that can and will continue to exist without a consciousness and seek to break out of its seal up untill Link squishes it with the Triforce. Thus when Link defeats Demise in the past he's just setting up the eventual annoying fights with the Imprisoned later on. Similarly I dont think the Timeshift stones are actual time travel so much as they're similar to recall from TotK and they're just shifting the area around to be similar to how it was in the past, so the Thunder Dragon exists in a quantum superposition of being both dead and alive in the present untill Link acts upon him and cures his sickness after he's recalled his physical state back to the point of being alive but still sick. The same logic of Timeshift Stones merely recalling the area around them could then explain the Temple of Time in Twilight Princess, in that the door recalls it back to it's pristine post-OOT self, but you're still technically in the present day, you're just using the recalled ToT to get to deeper parts of the woods where Zant has hidden the mirror. This would also explain why the Master Sword is missing, and explain why there's enemies at all, namely skulltulas, in this temple.
That beans sound got me giggling unnecessarily
Tbh I assumed ( and I haven’t watched the video but I’ve also never seen anyone come up with this theory), the downfall timeline was the original, and someone altered the timeline to make sure The Hero of Time succeeded. After all, OoT was the first game that didn’t take place in the downfall timeline