"Excuse me, but I wasn't allowed access to my Emerald Mine Trust Fund account until well into my 20s..." ~ Elon Musk "...yet Trump probably got tax-free 'starter' daddy loans of 100s of thousands when he was just 10 years old. My equally psycho parents didn't love/spoil me THAT much so basically I was poor just like you."
@@letsomethingshine Never have I heard a statement that would cause any low income person to instantly adopt literally eating the rich. It would be like RE4 where the villagers finally just start attacking for the first time.
Both of their fathers seem to have pretty shitty ethics though, Erol Musk's emerald mine was basically illegal, using slaves, and he had his son on a plane with mercenaries with assault rifles.
A friend of mine interviewed at SpaceX a number of years ago. One of interviewers said "whatever you've heard, Musk is even crazier. It's just something we deal with."
Interesting that the interviewer didn't say "whatever you've heard, it's irrelevant because none of us ever see him anyways." It's almost as if Elon actually works at the companies he works at.
@@Pehz63This is not the own you think it is. That's also not necessarily what this implies, he's in charge of the company regardless and thus has an effect on everyone there whether he's there or not
Elon is a genius. I really enjoy his "peculiar" form of intelligence, where he can spot and seek the most entertaining outcome, regardless of the cost. In this sense the twitter buyout was a genius move, now we can enjoy the resulting s*t show.
Exactly. I've never before had such a front seat to the public dismantling of well known and generally popular company and the magical disappearance of tens of billions of dollars in wealth.
Isha Datar, founder of New Harvest, a consortium that promotes and raises funds for biocultured meat and cellular agriculture, is an ACTUAL REAL genius, making a truly NECESSARY and IMPORTANT product: feeding carnivores/carnists protein WITHOUT breeding, confining, torturing, & murdering billions of innocent animals: cows, chickens, pigs. Humans can easily go vegan: MILLIONS of us AR (animal rights) vegans exist. I've been ARV since 1980, my older brother since 1979. But we can feed cats and dogs biocultured meat, vegan meat, so they won't starve. For all the technobros who say that innovation and revolution is always good, then they should ALL EASILY be behind biocultured meat and cell-ag, the more important practical applied engineering project of this millenium. Unlike carnists/carnivores, we Antinatalist Animal Rights Vegans (AARVs) and biotechnologists are actually DOING stuff, making the world a better place, advancing humanity. What are carnists/carnivores/selfish breeders doing to make the world a better place? Nothing. All they do is whine and complain. All they do is defend a lying murderous scammer fraud Elon Musk. A REAL genius would have tested his stupid neuralink on himself, cut open his OWN skull, not tortured and murdered innocent nonhuman animals.
You know what's sad? I have really smart friends who work at SpaceX and JPL who still stick up for the guy, but the vibe I get isn't that they're doing it out of fear, but embarrassment. I'm like, guys, you're doing great work. The US Government is financing most of it now. You don't have to keep placating the tumor. I think the issue is he's likely a genuinely charismatic nerd, and they may actually care about his feelings. I suppose to nerdy people he's easy to talk to. Like a kid who's very interested in your very technical job. Subconsciously, you don't want to insult him. That feels a bit infantilizing, but I'm out of ideas on what else to think.
I'm shit-for-brains autistic but I can talk circles around stuttering, sputtering Musk. I don't have the patience to deal with such long pregnant pauses.
Both of you are right on the car manual thing because you're making different points. Elon fan who doesn't want to be labeled as such is right that people go to the manual AFTER they have a specific issue. For example, when I wanted to remove my hubcaps I think I went to my manual for that. Vaush is more correct in context in that no one reads the entire manual cover to cover to gain a full understanding of every nuanced feature before driving their car, which is the more relevant point
@Devin MacGregor you're thinking of the maintenance manual which is only sold to the shops. The owner's manual is basic information like how to check your tire pressure, what the little lights on the dash mean, how to change the spare in case of a flat. Generally not things you take it to the shop for
@@DevinMacGregor the stuff people go to their manual for are questions like “crap what the heck is this light indicating?” “How do I work this feature that I know I have?” “The hell does this bottom do exactly?” “How do you program this radio?” Etc. You aren’t going to the shop with it because the cars not broken. You just want to know how to reset the tire pressure monitoring system or install a booster seat correctly.
I love the argument "but he is rich" Yes, cause he had a hold in PAYPAL and they KICKED HIM OUT and then, once he was gone, the company could do WELL! and his stock was worth something because of it! More luck than brain
The biggest red flag would be when he lied that he was poor. In fact he was as a kid vey wealthy. Do not expect honesty from him. Ever. Also, you do not think he is stupid. How about Hyper Loop, Starship Earth to Earth, Mars Mission, Nuke Mars. He has got many ideas but most of them are rubbish.
Elon Musk is a proletarian hero. He ended generational wealth for his family. He also seized an emerald mine from an Afrikaner industrialist. Truly one of the businessmen of all time.
That is a really cultish approach to describing him. If he were a preletarian he would be poor. Oh and say hello to Putin for me because nobody uses the word proletariot unless they are from Russia. And everybody knows Elon is in with the Russians. :) I guess you don't get a potato today, comrade.
@@OceanusHelios You seem to be mistaking this subtle mockery for genuine praise. Here, let me translate it into simpler terms. "Elon Musk is a proletarian hero." > "Elon Musk is a failure of capitalism." "He ended generational wealth for his family." > "He wasted his family fortune." "He also seized an emerald mine from an Afrikaner industrialist." > "His family's wealth was built on oppression." "Truly one of the businessmen of all time." > "I can't think of a positive descriptor to apply to him."
This Elon fan does not sound like an "Elonist", not brainwashed enough. Being a Musk fan is not like being a Batman fan, because Musk's fanbase has all the characteristics of a cult. If you think about it, you will get it.
In the Boeing vs spacex discussion, the reason spacex was more efficient than Boeing was a combination of their engineers being more specialized in the area and the fact they’re a smaller organization. Boeing is so large they are top heavy, they have outdated bureaucratic processes.
I want to say that I am an engineer in silicon valley and Elon isn't dumb, but he's a lesson in human psychology. I've seen it happen a thousand times in engineering and science. You tell someone they're a genius all day, everyday. Do it long enough they eventually think their shit doesn't stink and anything they churn out is gold. Elon is this same story, but at scale.
@@unluckygamer692 yeah, I sometimes call it "church pastor syndrome." The church often reveres their leader when their own holy book tells them not to.
he's probably a cross section for people who grew up wealthy and privilege. when you grow up being given most of what you want and not having to wrap your brain around adversity you can easily fail to form critical thinking and gratification delay that is important to being a functional human being. couple that with being surrounded professionally by sycophants who constantly tell him he's a genius and that everything he does is great and you get an amazing double down on developing a smooth brain like Elon.
I worked in QA for development companies. Can confirm. There are WAY too many brogrammers out there that think their opinion on practically everything is pure gold because they've been told from childhood, by *everyone*, that they are brilliant for their ability to get the magic internet box to spit out a Windows prompts that says "Hello, World!"
I agree. It hurt my brain listening to this. I'm mostly neutral on Elon Musk. But i do think i have a fairly good grasp on the technology that was discussed. Both the caller and Vaush have basically no idea what they're talking about.
This convo went pretty well. I think the defender came in with good faith and wasn't afraid to condemn at least some of Musky's bad behavior. Definitely could have been worse.
Elon says he has Asperger’s, which is just autism for people who feel they’re too “high functioning” to have autism. I have autism. It doesn’t make you an asshole automatically. That’s on him.
Elon Musk gets a lot of credit for things he didn't do . He didn't invent the electric car . He didn't make the Rockets for Space X . I'd say he was once very good at marketing . He lifted Tesla up . Yet there are a lot of people who have Teslas and say a lot of that matketing he did was BS. Id say something changed for him , or he just hid a lot of what we see now very well . When he purchased Twitter (what he paid for it was not smart) he changed . He's a Genius at Destroying a once very good social media site . I dont believe he's as intelligent as his sycophants believe .
Walt Disney wasn't even the one with the big idea for the theme park. He wanted to build a town, and after he died the smart people who were there to fill his shoes actually built the real Empire. Hate to take away the one point given to a billionaire CEO in this conversation, but that's how it is. Steamboat Willie, good for him, but he's not the genius that created Disney World or the Empire that it sits on
BTW, when you're comparing companies statistics (i.e DEFECTS, Recalls, ect.) in the Industrial/Manufacturing Industry we measure these metrics by PPM [Parts Per Million] meaning you factor each percentage of # of units & # of REJECTED units. Once you've factored both percentages - you then need to multiply each percentage by 1 Million - This will give you Apples-to-Apples Direct comparisons of fallout rates. If Tesla is still substantially HIGHER then theres probably major issues. Also, you can subdivide REJECTS into categories (i.e Minor, Mediate, Serious) to show percentages of each. Then factor the PPM by Multiplying those by 1 Million. Thats how you can direct compare the manufacturing to quality fallout rates Directly Tesla to Ford to Volksvagen to Chevy ect. This equalizes the numbers to the same playing field. [Source: past career was over North American Manufacturing/Distribution - Manager of Quality Control, Quality Assurance, & Warranty claims for Hand Tools]
Comparing Musk with Trump is appropriate, not only because both are psychopaths, having the same motivation, but also because there are numerous similarities in their backgrounds.
haha idk how u stayed so cool, he kept trying to diss you in a dumb obvious way and you just ignored it XD props my man, love how you know your opinion
26:55 trains will almost never leave a station without friction brakes, going without them and relying solely on e-brakes would be like taking the training wheels off a babys bike and sending them down a trail in Appalachia. Im autistic too so you know im right about this
Vaush, as we all get older and grow along with you and your channel, and as you become a more serious commentator with valuable insights and opinions, do you consider it may be time to update some of the aesthetic presentation of your channel? In particular the FLCL anime robot intro? Great animation on it but that coupled with the pretty basic Webcam in my bedroom format seems a little out of place or lazy even considering your popularity and success. Maybe I'm nitpicking here and I am a big fan but this thought occurs to me often.
If I went to highschool with that kid, I would have been a bully. He just makes you want to punch him with his incessant 'correct me if I'm wrong' and 'wouldn't you agree?' and 'that's fair' FFS, STFU!! Just makes you want to do bad things, like a bully-genesis machine, ugh.
Being a fan of a billionaire must feel like walking around a casino you don't own, and hooting like a badass every time the house wins, licking the urinals, and calling the trash can, "Sir".
I love how some people genuinely think ”But Elon said…” is an argument. It is weird to me why anyone cares what he said at this point. He is purely hypeman.
This poor kid. You can tell he looks up to Elon even though he's pretending to be indifferent. Once his eyes open up and he sees Elon for the technocratic charlatan that he is it'll be a big relief for him.
@@YungPinoy Speak for yourself. First thing I saw of him was the flamethrower thing and thought it was childish and stupid. Everything since has only reaffirmed that.
Vaush: I hate elon musk. Elon Fanboy: yeah well, can I push back on that. Vaush: Sure. Elon Fanboy: elon is kinda cool though. Vaush: No. Elon Fanboy: yeah ok, fair enough. I guess you're kinda right about that.
I know! Uggh he triggers me so much 😭😭 Gosh he's a bad bad man. BAD! As a neurodivegent, non binary trans girl who partially identifies as autism gender(only ADHD and anxiety diagnosis) I have to say he honestly triggers my Bussy(boy pussy). I'm so happy to be on your team while screaming "Fuck you ELON!". Thank you to all who stand strong in this virtuous and progressive fight 😔✊
My first OMG Elon is not very smart moment was when he told the developers at Twitter to tear town the system and rebuild it. When a developer asked him what he meant by that and asked him some basic developer questions, he didn’t know how to respond. It was pretty obvious he doesn’t understand the world of coding or development. One of the other devs actually started giggling at Elon on the call. I’m sure they’re both fired now.
Heard that convo in "Elon Musk Is NOT a GENIUS! | Part 2" by MisesEconomics. Those guys pulled no punches with Elon there and he completely lost it, going full ad hominem instead of addressing their technical concerns. I wish more people questioned his dumb ideas to his face more often. It makes great entertainment.
My mom tried to make me feel better in a convo about me having autism. She was trying to say I can do more than I think which is a nice sentiment. However she brought up Elon Musk as an example of a successful neurodivergent person. She meant well but it was just insulting and frankly just made me wanna barf.
@@shis1988 you sure? I think we don't know and he gives me the impression to be on the spectrum. either this or he has some other (worse) problem. like some kinda weird narc type shi7
hey, i'm an aerospace/astrophysics double major. and the people i have talked to have almost unanimously advised me against going to SpaceX simply because of elon. so his first point is basically invalid immmediatly
yeah but 15-20 years ago the Elon "hype" was very different and his failings as an exploitative boss were less publicized. but in the end, saying that Elon lending his "hype" to a project is of material value is highly speculative. yeah, people gave him money and a certain generation of workers were probably taken in by all his lofty promises and the way he talks about "science". But being able to talk convincingly means that you're great a marketing, not that you're great at science and engineering or have any particular insight into either. These days we can point to the mountain of broken/empty promises he's made so the mystique doesn't work the same and when pressed on more than surface level concepts he often tries to answer vaguely or pivot. It's been illustrated very clearly with Twitter when people ask him directly what is wrong with the code base when he's claiming there needs to be a complete rewrite and he reacts with anger when questioned instead of being able to name off the top of his head 3-5 notable issues.
"I live in California" "I never heard about the high speed rail that was gonna be built in California or how Elon destroyed it" "Hey man, I'm train pilled. When you brought up high speed rail, I was pumping my fist" I don't know any other fellow autist train enthusiasts who haven't heard about high speed rail in CA and it being murdered by Elon. That's our 9/11.
13:00 Alright, I'm 15 minutes in from this point and I'm already seeing a big flaw in the logic the viewer is using. He's conflating Space X's actions/success with Elon Musk's actions/success. It's like if someone were to contribute the amazing performance of my computer to my own genius of buying it, even if I had NO IDEA what the computer itself could do before I bought it.
Yeah it's largely that. He seems to agree with Vaush and every other point on how Elon is an idiot and even provided more points. But he thinks space x is good and thinks its due to elon for some reason even though he admits he has no proof of this. Which just means Elon has PR...
props to this person for being willing to debate on stream. i get the vibe that he’s not a confident speaker, so i’m proud of him for putting himself out there like this. i disagree with the defense, but i respect his willingness to communicate.
Musk has this skill where, much like comic books and other sci-fi media, he can rattle off terms in a way that sounds plausible to laymen. It makes him sound knowledgeable to people who aren't familiar with the area of study. He also gets genuinely excited about the projects he speaks about, which is endearing. I can understand why people might like him initially, just not how they continue to like him after that veneer is gone.
The janitor is more on the ground than Elon ever is. And more skilled. Elon has practically zero qualifications and is just a fraudulent mascot for his big purchases.
@@nakfoor1846 It's true. When you can have anything you desire, what's left to look forward to or genuinely enjoy? You miss how the little things in life are what really bring happiness & growth. It reminds me of John du Pont... grew up rich, never had any real interests, never developed any skills, every single accomplishment was due to paying people or having connections, & he was one of the most uninteresting humans to talk to, people said. The only difference is that Elon hasn't murdered anyone yet.. that we know of.. lol
He's not even particularly bright. His verbal IQ couldn't possibly be above 90, but maybe - maybe - if he has an extremely lobsided cognitive profile that spikes in a few exceptional attributes that in are no way manifest in extemporaneous conversation or any of his publicly observable behavior (basically, if he's an idiot savant) then his composite IQ score _might_ be as high as 125.
The only thing Elon has ever been credited at Tesla for, was the fuckin charging port. And that's was to make sure they could only hook up to Tesla charging stations. Wow, much smart.
T-Zero EV Manufactured AC Propulsion was the EV Roadster car and that was borrowed by Tesla, Inc.-originally Tesla Motors-was incorporated in 2003 by Martin Eberhard and Marc Tarpenning, who financed the company until the Series A round of funding. Both men played active roles in the company's early development prior to Musk's involvement. Musk assumed leadership of the company as CEO and product architect in 2008.
@@kylereese4822 all done by engineers working for Musk, not Musk. He takes credit for the work other people do. If you believe he's actually designing engines and shit, you're dumb and there's no savings you. What I said was true, Elons name is only on one patent, and that's for the fuckin charging port on the Tesla, that's it.
Comparing electronic train brakes to car brakes is absurd. Trains never deal with extreme grades and don't have the need to rapidly stop because a car cuts you off, because that is physically impossible. Also each car has it's own brakes so if a few fail in an emergency there is massive redundancy.
As an anthropology student and an anarchist, i think it's really dumb to think that culture can be created at the request of the powerful, like one guy can be responsible for the entire culture of a workplace
Disagree. When Elon declared a new, super hardcore work culture for Twitter, everyone quit. One person can make a huge difference Or you can look at Trump and his influence over American culture through the MAGA/Qanon movement. Damn near led a coup (and still may). Were other people involved? Sure, but Trump was 100% steering that ship. Or hell, look at Putin and his decades long international propaganda campaign to poison bothe the left and the right with incredible volumes of misinformation to drown out actual facts. Fewer people than ever believe news outlets anymore and that's forever changed the culture of the west
Musk’s contributions to his companies’ culture are game-changing. It is actually very inspiring to have some 50-something year old turbo-loser shambling around your place of work going “Uhuhuhuhuhh 420. Uhuhuhuhuhuh… 69? Le epic bacon doge awesomesauce”. This sort of thing is real high-level thinking.
That Elon defender wasn't so bad. Elon had a lot of people fooled for a relatively long time, and I think most people who were not particularly paying attention had a generally positive impression of him. It's going to take a while for some people to adjust to reality. I have a guy at work who genuinely thinks Elon bought Twitter to save free speech. The guy on this stream by comparison seems to accept facts, he just needs some time to reasses. I will say a couple of things about electric cars, and Teslas in particular. In Norway where I live, electric vehicles and make up about 25% of all vehicles on the road at this point, and over 80% of new vehicles sold. Teslas are by far the largest single brand here, and to be fair, they have been leading the way in market adoption of EVs. They are not seen as luxury vehicles here, and are competitively priced, especially considering things like range and carrying capacity. I say this as someone who did not choose a Tesla himself, as I have some problems with both their quality record and UI design, as well as a strong dislike of their CEO. But for the company itself, I have to give credit where it is due. When it comes to the environmental aspecst of EVs, they are *not* the solution to our problems with personal transportation. The solution is public transport and well-planned cities which are designed for people rather than cars. EVs are still better than fossil fuel cars though. The impact on global warming will depend a lot on how power is generated where you live, but at least with electric vehicles, you can approach this problem at the power plant level, rather than having millions of little gasoline generators in varying condition driving around. It is also a fact that EV engines are vastly more effective than gasoline engines (80-90% vs 20-30%), so far less energy is lost to heat and noise. I think we need to be able to think about multiple things at once. New cars should be electric, but at the same time, we need to significantly reduce car dependency. I guess this is where some of the confusion about Elon Musk comes from, as EV adoption is good for his personal wealth, which combined with his lies made it seem like he cared about the environment. Reducing car dependency, however, is obviously not in his economic interest, and so he works against it.
the dude is right. Up until very recently Elon was personally responsible for building all the hype and marketing Tesla and SpaceX needed to get off the ground. The reason the best engineers will accept less pay and longer hours to work SpaceX vs Boeing is because Elon successfully convinced everyone he was going to lead them to Mars.
Partially right. Neither him, an Elon fan (not a simp, we have to hand it to him) nor Vaush, a harsh critic, were as well-informed about SpaceX as I expected. My take is equally speculative, but at least goes a little bit deeper than surface-deep: Elon goaded them into applying, but it *is* truly a very engineering-driven and well-managed company. And run by Gwynne Shotwell. She’s the actual engineer, the adult in the room who runs the show day-to-day. They came for Elon and his promises of space exploration glory, and stayed for Gwynne and her actual delivery of said glory, despite Elon’s shenanigans (with which, sooner or later, they, along with all the poor sods at his other companies, had to contend, but at least they have her, seemingly the only executive Musk respects, as a protective buffer). TL;DR: yes, Elon’s bs served as good PR, but it only kept working by accident, because he hired someone particularly competent and strong-willed enough to keep his general stupidity at bay. Not a very good look for the Muskrat, if you ask me. 🤷♂️
I think thousands of people queuing up for an interview in Tesla would agree with you, that they're there for Elon. Because why not, according to capitalist culture, we all look up to the super rich and we believe we have the same values as the super rich. Which is responsible for creating these fans, even if we may or may not agree with some of the things that people like Elon does. I only hope that whoever got in will have a great team leader like Gwynne who will defend the team from Elon's actions instead of kowtowing to his whims, but unfortunately I don't see this will happen
@@Mainyehc Vaush looks more like a bad faith hater than a harsh critic to me. But I appreciate the elaboration in your 2nd paragraph as I'm not very familiar with the situation.
Defending Elon Musk seems so reflexive for some people. Like, it’s not a belief derived from anything substantive, it’s not BECAUSE of anything he’s done or said, they just automatically feel like there must be SOMETHING about him that’s worth defending. In my opinion, it’s rooted in liberal capitalist brain rot. A classic cart-before-horse where Elon’s financial success implies some amount of merit, because otherwise the entire system that we use to measure success is meaningless. And that’s very scary for some people.
I was somewhat of an elon musk admirer until a few years ago. At the time, the facade was more convincing if you only had the surface level public information, and positive headlines/fluff pieces were very common. Obviously, the facade has fallen apart. That's why he is pandering to the right-wing now, because they're the only ones dumb enough to still believe in him.
It's actually a psychological thing. Called just-world hypothesis. The belief that the world is fair gives a huge amount of security, predictiveness, positivity and feeling of control. If your actions are good (morally/cognitively etc.) you can reap your reward "good things happen to good people", this correlates with the assumption, if you are rich (reaped the rewards) you did something well, in Elon's case he "must be" incredibly smart. Also this is a fix answer for: why does he deserve richness, while "I"m (who thinks this way) not deserving that. He must be an extraordinary, out of the world genius. The just-world belief actually pretty strong, even in daily things, like when you go to an interview, you usually think/hope if you are better qualified, and nice you will surely get that dreamjob. So it gives adaptive pillars how you think about your actions, and you don't have to question everything in every moment. (Will I get the job, with my smile? Or my clothes will be decisive, or should've get a friend in the firm.... etc.) Then a dude got the job with cheating(who you already hate because of this). After that the just-world hypothesis helps you coping and move on. ("What goes around comes around", "Well, in a couple weeks they will find out how unsuitable he is"....) etc. This also a "reasonable" cause why society collectively has a bad opinion of poor people.
Tesla and SpaceX have been given SO MUCH taxpayer money. That has to be a contributing factor in their success. So: American taxpayers, well done! You've likely contributed more to the success of these than Elon has. You deserve a raise.
As an engineer, I recently had several employment options and I went with the lowest paying option because it was the technology I wanted. Not all of us just value the highest paycheck.
I work in LIB R&D... I had the opportunity to go to a new company that had interesting tech and even higher pay... Part of the reason I stayed is because my team now is amazing and we really believe in the vision of our supervisor.
Same here. Not only is it the kind of work I want to do, a Senior Engineer (which I am now) gets 30 days of leave a year + 7 holidays. It also violates policy to work unpaid overtime because the owner doesn't want to burn people out. The 20-grand or so pay hit is worth being allowed to have a life, at least it is to me.
For me, a big issue with musk is that he takes credit for the actual work that the incredible engineers do. If he says “my engineers” instead of “I“ then I’d have one less issue with him
Like Trump boasting as being smarter than all the Generals, Musk rarely if ever gives credit to the actual engineering brains behind Tesla and SpaceX..Fanboys call Musk the genius, Then Musk just gives them & himself a nod of approval.. Basically he's a bi-product of the Sci -Fi generation, a Comic book groomed characterm Again his fanboys call him Iron Man, Elon Stark.
I mean, he sounded pretty nervous, and a lot of people find it pretty tough to think clearly when they're nervous. Vaush was taking advantage a bit and over-stepping his claims, and left a lot of low hanging fruit and engaged in fallacies that he normally never would. Surely it was because he felt comfortable that he wouldn't be challenged on anything. I absolutely despise Elon, am a petrified stutterer when public speaking, and generally try to avoid confrontation, but with Vaush leaving that much slack I feel like even I could have done better than that poor kid.
@@claires1063 Vaush mollifying this kid isn't mutually exclusive to him taking advantage of him in the debate. He absolutely took advantage of this kid and the fact that he was not at all prepared to argue his points. Vaush iced the cake with weak arguments he never would have even tried against someone who was more articulate or had a any capacity for logic or good faith debate. Just one example: Vaush introducing his own quick research into the convo, but accidentally coming across info that Teslas are 2.5x safer than the average automobile. He immediately started discrediting the source of his own findings because he didn't like what he found. That never have flown with somebody who knows how to debate or was mildly familiar with the subject they were discussing. We KNOW that Vaush wouldn't have challenged the source if he happened to find that Teslas are twice as dangerous. It's fairly common knowledge that EVs have extremely heavy batteries in the base that gives them a low center of gravity, makes them far less likely to roll, and overall makes them far safer. But this kid had absolutely no push back and Vaush was happy to walk all over him. I actually agree with Vaush on his overall Elon take, but I noticed this type of stuff happening the entire conversation. I imagine it must have stuck out like a sore thumb to someone who disagrees and/or really knows the points.
Europe made Tesla change the self driving name, whatever it was, because they realized people thought the car drove itself. So they found that the consumer was being lied to about the capabilities of Tesla's self driving, So no, the consumer cannot be trusted as much as the viewer claims. Good talk though, Kudos to the viewer
Plus the term autopilot. Plus Musk in an interview literally said that it could drive 2000 some miles without you having to do anything yet their engineers say you need to keep your hands on the wheel in case it malfunctions.
@@anthonycosta128 I have never seen Musk doing any calculations, any programming or any building for his rockets or cars. :D He hasn't done anything for humanity, and the very very few things that came out of his companies were invented by his engineers :D I was talking about real intelligent people, like some of my professors, who have multiple PhDs and are actively trying to cure deadly diseases such as cancer. I've got one professor who did a phd on nuclear physics and quantum mechanics, and after that did another phd in medicine lol Again, I feel sorry for you that you haven't ever seen and communicated with intelligent people in your life.
anybody reasonably sensible, even if they disagree with Musk, would give him credit where it's due. Only dishonest, malevolent, resentful, envious, arrogant, pitiful losers would make stupid statements of the kind you see in this comment section. These weasles congregate here, and the smell is positively revolting
Dude's very first argument boils down to "Musk must be smart, because he's been financially successful." I think that's all we need to hear about his position.
That position is actually in every single comment thread on instagram. It is literally the only way bootlickers can convince themselves that shit is fair.
You all are so effing petty. Just because Musk is deranged politically does not mean he contributes nothing of value as Vaush was trying to argue. Elon started a rocket company that was the first to create reusable rockets and did not go bust. He started a new car company that was a graveyard to fortunes and tesla is thriving. I think part of the reason is Musks direction. Is it so unfathomable to you that some negative personality quirks can help a business? I think one quirk of Musk is he can't stand someone telling him no. He got a minor lock down in CA and fast tracked himself to Austin Texas. What happens when a bunch of engineers he hires to work on reusable rockets says it can't be done or is too difficult? Him being an obsessed dick who can't accept no makes it more likely for him to drive the people working for him to push through. That is a possibility, but again, you all are so petty you cannot allow that.
This is basically why the MSM still takes him seriously. They don't understand the (many) flaws in the engineering Musk promises, and they trust 'the financial markets' to be correct all the time, so much so that since Tesla is valued at X, it must surely be worth X. Just like with Theranos.......the media all believed it was true, until they all believed it wasn't. Musk is next.
Okay I began to respect this kid the moment I heard him correct Vaush on the tunnel stuff so as to not give Elon’s company or him credit for it. That’s a nice display of nuance that makes me think he’s sort of just holding onto vestiges of admiration for Elon against his at least functional capacity for critical thinking that pushes back against that admiration.
I know 5 idiots, and Elon is 3 of them. Poor kid, he really doesn't know what he believes in, he just made Elon his idol. Hopefully this talk with Vaush will guide him out of the darkness
He wasn't a full blown Elon fan, he called the Semi an outright scam and admitted Elon lies a lot. An actual Elon fan (ie. a Muskrat) could not find a bad hair on him and would constantly hail him as the savior of humanity.
I think that's really unfair to the debater. He's clearly aware of several criticisms of Elon, and raises some himself in the debate. From my gauge, he just gets annoyed by statements he deems invalid.
To be fair (since a fair few in the comments section are hounding on him), the musk defender was a pretty good sport. He kept things civil, didnt resort to desperate tactics, many times was willing to take the L. I know some muskrats who will just spew any nonsense to avoid facing any harsh truths about their god-king
Good on this guy, not only does he seem to be willing to engage in good faith, I think he's holding his own against Vaush despite how clearly nervous he is. I think he actually came out ahead on the point about Elon's reputation having something to do with Space X's success - Vaush basically conceded 90% of the point to him, the only thing he didn't cede was the conclusion. Like, sure, Vaush isn't in full debate mode here, but it's still impressive. Always nice to find someone who I disagree with who I can respect and isn't an obvious ghoul wearing a human skin suit.
SpaceX could have easily outspent Boeing cause Boeing actually needs to make profit so their spent is more frugal, while SpaceX has everything riding on this one thing to succeed.
Yikes. I was once a fan of elon's, I thought he was the exception in that he had actually worked really hard and made it into a position to do good. There seemed to be a lot of very positive opinions from people whose perspectives I thought I should respect. NASA consultants and the like. I was tempted to come on the stream to defend him. I worked at his Nevada factory for like four and a half years during which I volunteered for Bernie's presidential campaign. I was site lead for about sixteen small precincts at a high school. I still thought of Elon as the good face of capitalism, but now I know how exploitation works. I was very bothered when he supported the Bolivian coup. Now I'm a socialist and I want to start a worker co-op.
@@JessesanManthis. If Janitos stop cleaning the bathrooms, the entire place can get shut down. Elon stops working, literally not a single soul would know/feel his absence.
That's why he's a fan boy, in reality even a lousy janitor is more valuable than Elon Musk, a janitor's negative impact is limited, a billionaire's is inexhaustible.
@@OneFluffyKiriko I had never heard of that subreddit so I went there, I still have no idea what it is about even after visiting. Is this a counterpoint meant to prove redditors are smart?
"Elon grew up less wealthy than Trump did." That's some precision hair-splitting right there.
Reminds me of when Jack Horner cried about only having millions to live on when some people had billions.
Well Trump was given $413 million so okay.
"Excuse me, but I wasn't allowed access to my Emerald Mine Trust Fund account until well into my 20s..." ~ Elon Musk
"...yet Trump probably got tax-free 'starter' daddy loans of 100s of thousands when he was just 10 years old. My equally psycho parents didn't love/spoil me THAT much so basically I was poor just like you."
@@letsomethingshine Never have I heard a statement that would cause any low income person to instantly adopt literally eating the rich. It would be like RE4 where the villagers finally just start attacking for the first time.
Both of their fathers seem to have pretty shitty ethics though, Erol Musk's emerald mine was basically illegal, using slaves, and he had his son on a plane with mercenaries with assault rifles.
Free speech absolutists when free speech hurts the bottom line
Or when they disagree with your speech
Society made a huge mistake when it agreed that fascists' idea of free speech was relevant.
He blocks and "censored" more people than the previous regime. So much for free speech
That's the "beauty" of capitalism baby. EVERYTHING is for sale.
Or Elon’s little broken man feelings are hurt?
A friend of mine interviewed at SpaceX a number of years ago. One of interviewers said "whatever you've heard, Musk is even crazier. It's just something we deal with."
Interesting that the interviewer didn't say "whatever you've heard, it's irrelevant because none of us ever see him anyways." It's almost as if Elon actually works at the companies he works at.
@@Pehz63This is not the own you think it is. That's also not necessarily what this implies, he's in charge of the company regardless and thus has an effect on everyone there whether he's there or not
I mean yeah he pops in all the time high on ketamine to give encouragement. @@Pehz63
@@crypt5129 fair point
He wasn't very crazy then though.
Free speech doesn't mean "free of consequences".
Elon is a genius. I really enjoy his "peculiar" form of intelligence, where he can spot and seek the most entertaining outcome, regardless of the cost. In this sense the twitter buyout was a genius move, now we can enjoy the resulting s*t show.
Exactly. I've never before had such a front seat to the public dismantling of well known and generally popular company and the magical disappearance of tens of billions of dollars in wealth.
@@tiredlocke let us make popcorn
Isha Datar, founder of New Harvest, a consortium that promotes and raises funds for biocultured meat and cellular agriculture,
is an ACTUAL REAL genius, making a truly NECESSARY and IMPORTANT product:
feeding carnivores/carnists protein WITHOUT breeding, confining, torturing, & murdering billions of innocent animals:
cows, chickens, pigs. Humans can easily go vegan:
MILLIONS of us AR (animal rights) vegans exist. I've been ARV since 1980,
my older brother since 1979. But we can feed cats and dogs biocultured meat, vegan meat, so they won't starve.
For all the technobros who say that innovation and revolution is always good,
then they should ALL EASILY be behind biocultured meat and cell-ag,
the more important practical applied engineering project of this millenium.
Unlike carnists/carnivores, we Antinatalist Animal Rights Vegans (AARVs)
and biotechnologists are actually DOING stuff, making the world a better place, advancing humanity.
What are carnists/carnivores/selfish breeders doing to make the world a better place?
Nothing. All they do is whine and complain. All they do is defend a lying murderous scammer fraud Elon Musk.
A REAL genius would have tested his stupid neuralink on himself, cut open his OWN skull,
not tortured and murdered innocent nonhuman animals.
Not worthless, just shameless. It doesn’t come from being an idiot, it comes from his being an amoral narcissist…
I enjoyed the tone, Vaush. This guy was clearly not an asshole.
You know what's sad? I have really smart friends who work at SpaceX and JPL who still stick up for the guy, but the vibe I get isn't that they're doing it out of fear, but embarrassment. I'm like, guys, you're doing great work. The US Government is financing most of it now. You don't have to keep placating the tumor.
I think the issue is he's likely a genuinely charismatic nerd, and they may actually care about his feelings. I suppose to nerdy people he's easy to talk to. Like a kid who's very interested in your very technical job. Subconsciously, you don't want to insult him. That feels a bit infantilizing, but I'm out of ideas on what else to think.
Well the person who gave space x the contract, now works at space x after leaving her government position.
I'm shit-for-brains autistic but I can talk circles around stuttering, sputtering Musk. I don't have the patience to deal with such long pregnant pauses.
SpaceX outperforming NASA isn't mucj of a feat considering how slim NASA's budget is.
Both of you are right on the car manual thing because you're making different points.
Elon fan who doesn't want to be labeled as such is right that people go to the manual AFTER they have a specific issue. For example, when I wanted to remove my hubcaps I think I went to my manual for that.
Vaush is more correct in context in that no one reads the entire manual cover to cover to gain a full understanding of every nuanced feature before driving their car, which is the more relevant point
Far more people are not going to crack that book but take it to a shop.
@Devin MacGregor you're thinking of the maintenance manual which is only sold to the shops. The owner's manual is basic information like how to check your tire pressure, what the little lights on the dash mean, how to change the spare in case of a flat. Generally not things you take it to the shop for
@@DevinMacGregor the stuff people go to their manual for are questions like “crap what the heck is this light indicating?” “How do I work this feature that I know I have?” “The hell does this bottom do exactly?” “How do you program this radio?” Etc. You aren’t going to the shop with it because the cars not broken. You just want to know how to reset the tire pressure monitoring system or install a booster seat correctly.
I love the argument "but he is rich"
Yes, cause he had a hold in PAYPAL and they KICKED HIM OUT and then, once he was gone, the company could do WELL! and his stock was worth something because of it!
More luck than brain
Also his family’s apartheid emerald mine money probably also attributed to his wealth
The biggest red flag would be when he lied that he was poor. In fact he was as a kid vey wealthy.
Do not expect honesty from him. Ever.
Also, you do not think he is stupid. How about Hyper Loop, Starship Earth to Earth, Mars Mission, Nuke Mars. He has got many ideas but most of them are rubbish.
Elon Musk is a proletarian hero. He ended generational wealth for his family. He also seized an emerald mine from an Afrikaner industrialist. Truly one of the businessmen of all time.
That is a really cultish approach to describing him. If he were a preletarian he would be poor. Oh and say hello to Putin for me because nobody uses the word proletariot unless they are from Russia. And everybody knows Elon is in with the Russians. :) I guess you don't get a potato today, comrade.
@@OceanusHelios You seem to be mistaking this subtle mockery for genuine praise. Here, let me translate it into simpler terms.
"Elon Musk is a proletarian hero." > "Elon Musk is a failure of capitalism."
"He ended generational wealth for his family." > "He wasted his family fortune."
"He also seized an emerald mine from an Afrikaner industrialist." > "His family's wealth was built on oppression."
"Truly one of the businessmen of all time." > "I can't think of a positive descriptor to apply to him."
This Elon fan does not sound like an "Elonist", not brainwashed enough. Being a Musk fan is not like being a Batman fan, because Musk's fanbase has all the characteristics of a cult. If you think about it, you will get it.
In the Boeing vs spacex discussion, the reason spacex was more efficient than Boeing was a combination of their engineers being more specialized in the area and the fact they’re a smaller organization. Boeing is so large they are top heavy, they have outdated bureaucratic processes.
I want to say that I am an engineer in silicon valley and Elon isn't dumb, but he's a lesson in human psychology.
I've seen it happen a thousand times in engineering and science. You tell someone they're a genius all day, everyday. Do it long enough they eventually think their shit doesn't stink and anything they churn out is gold.
Elon is this same story, but at scale.
This
As they say, power corrupts. Especially when that power is just everyone approving and praising everything you do
@@unluckygamer692 yeah, I sometimes call it "church pastor syndrome." The church often reveres their leader when their own holy book tells them not to.
he's probably a cross section for people who grew up wealthy and privilege. when you grow up being given most of what you want and not having to wrap your brain around adversity you can easily fail to form critical thinking and gratification delay that is important to being a functional human being. couple that with being surrounded professionally by sycophants who constantly tell him he's a genius and that everything he does is great and you get an amazing double down on developing a smooth brain like Elon.
I worked in QA for development companies. Can confirm. There are WAY too many brogrammers out there that think their opinion on practically everything is pure gold because they've been told from childhood, by *everyone*, that they are brilliant for their ability to get the magic internet box to spit out a Windows prompts that says "Hello, World!"
I can tell this guy was nervous as he was having a hard time getting it out, but I enjoyed listening to this one.
You don't have to be smart to be rich, you just have to be born that way.
18:39- "when you see the **outternal**" lmfao
"I guess Emerald mines are a thing" ... just wow...
Oh yes, what a valuable debate.
2 people that both have no clue what they’re talking about, how would we have survived without it?
Ffs..
I agree. It hurt my brain listening to this. I'm mostly neutral on Elon Musk. But i do think i have a fairly good grasp on the technology that was discussed. Both the caller and Vaush have basically no idea what they're talking about.
This convo went pretty well. I think the defender came in with good faith and wasn't afraid to condemn at least some of Musky's bad behavior. Definitely could have been worse.
Elon says he has Asperger’s, which is just autism for people who feel they’re too “high functioning” to have autism.
I have autism. It doesn’t make you an asshole automatically. That’s on him.
Tesla calls their tech « Full Self Driving », not « autopilot ».
Elon Musk gets a lot of credit for things he didn't do .
He didn't invent the electric car .
He didn't make the Rockets for Space X .
I'd say he was once very good at marketing .
He lifted Tesla up .
Yet there are a lot of people who have Teslas and say a lot of that matketing he did was BS.
Id say something changed for him , or he just hid a lot of what we see now very well .
When he purchased Twitter (what he paid for it was not smart) he changed .
He's a Genius at Destroying a once very good social media site .
I dont believe he's as intelligent as his sycophants believe .
Oh my god, this did not age well. He's putting Boeing and SpaceX and their proposals for the ISS as a positive success in this video.
Walt Disney wasn't even the one with the big idea for the theme park. He wanted to build a town, and after he died the smart people who were there to fill his shoes actually built the real Empire. Hate to take away the one point given to a billionaire CEO in this conversation, but that's how it is. Steamboat Willie, good for him, but he's not the genius that created Disney World or the Empire that it sits on
Did... Did Vaush just debate Jordan Peterson?
Omg that’s so funny…
There's 84% of approval of CEO on glassdoor for SpaceX, for what it's worth.
The boring company just took existed tech that was already used to build smaller tunnels for different things and said we should just travel in them.
This was shockingly respectful and wholesome.
@34:39 Boston Dynamics is owned by South Korea's Hyundai conglomerate. Good job, Vaush.
He was thinking people need his services even if they're limited what they say.
BTW, when you're comparing companies statistics (i.e DEFECTS, Recalls, ect.) in the Industrial/Manufacturing Industry we measure these metrics by PPM [Parts Per Million] meaning you factor each percentage of # of units & # of REJECTED units. Once you've factored both percentages - you then need to multiply each percentage by 1 Million - This will give you Apples-to-Apples Direct comparisons of fallout rates. If Tesla is still substantially HIGHER then theres probably major issues. Also, you can subdivide REJECTS into categories (i.e Minor, Mediate, Serious) to show percentages of each. Then factor the PPM by Multiplying those by 1 Million.
Thats how you can direct compare the manufacturing to quality fallout rates Directly Tesla to Ford to Volksvagen to Chevy ect. This equalizes the numbers to the same playing field.
[Source: past career was over North American Manufacturing/Distribution - Manager of Quality Control, Quality Assurance, & Warranty claims for Hand Tools]
Comparing Musk with Trump is appropriate, not only because both are psychopaths, having the same motivation, but also because there are numerous similarities in their backgrounds.
Why Turkey is in NATO my brain can't compute.
You can literally walk up to almost any Tesla and see the garbage build quality. Thin thin paint and sloppily fitted body panels.
As long as he's funneling money into things I support I think he's a net positive. The Twitter acquisition was a massive waste
haha idk how u stayed so cool, he kept trying to diss you in a dumb obvious way and you just ignored it XD props my man, love how you know your opinion
26:55 trains will almost never leave a station without friction brakes, going without them and relying solely on e-brakes would be like taking the training wheels off a babys bike and sending them down a trail in Appalachia.
Im autistic too so you know im right about this
My guy brought Stannis mf Baratheon, the one true King, into this debate
Vaush, as we all get older and grow along with you and your channel, and as you become a more serious commentator with valuable insights and opinions, do you consider it may be time to update some of the aesthetic presentation of your channel? In particular the FLCL anime robot intro? Great animation on it but that coupled with the pretty basic Webcam in my bedroom format seems a little out of place or lazy even considering your popularity and success. Maybe I'm nitpicking here and I am a big fan but this thought occurs to me often.
If I went to highschool with that kid, I would have been a bully. He just makes you want to punch him with his incessant 'correct me if I'm wrong' and 'wouldn't you agree?' and 'that's fair' FFS, STFU!! Just makes you want to do bad things, like a bully-genesis machine, ugh.
Being a fan of a billionaire must feel like walking around a casino you don't own, and hooting like a badass every time the house wins, licking the urinals, and calling the trash can, "Sir".
Being happy when you lose all your money at craps because you think they can use it better than you could anyway.
Calling the trash can sir is amazing. Op tier post.
This is such a specific take. I have to quote this to people
Lol damn you rlly hate that guy dontcha
Whoa whoa whoa, why do we have to kink shame urinal lickers here?
Person Vaush was debating seemed like they're open to having their mind changed. I didn't agree with them but respected their attitude
Elon is a big brain genius, he told me so himself on twitter
Elon is a genius at lying to tech simps.
And very stable.
I love how some people genuinely think ”But Elon said…” is an argument. It is weird to me why anyone cares what he said at this point. He is purely hypeman.
... then banned everyone who disagreed
I guess that settles it then
Musk once said that he's the smartest person in any room he's in.
That's because whenever he walks into a room everyone else leaves.
If you asked Elon Musk about Aldin's Number, he'd spend a few minutes telling you how brilliant General Aldin was
@@Gloomdrake lol don't start that again omg the memes haha.
The emerald mine story is very shaky, it sounds more like his dad was in the blood emerald trade rather than an actual mine.
That Tesla charger plug is one of Elon's only actual patented inventions in his name.
@@mikenerdcore ahhh this is just as it was back in the Alden days
This poor kid. You can tell he looks up to Elon even though he's pretending to be indifferent. Once his eyes open up and he sees Elon for the technocratic charlatan that he is it'll be a big relief for him.
Yeah, but hey a lot of us, myself included, fell for a lot of the Elon propaganda.
@@YungPinoy Speak for yourself. First thing I saw of him was the flamethrower thing and thought it was childish and stupid. Everything since has only reaffirmed that.
@@TysonRex37 I remember the first time I heard of him, he sounded like a parody of an American businessman. Nothing has really changed since.
@@TysonRex37He IS speaking for himself.... and indeed many others. So what's your problem?
@@TysonRex37 Well I specifically said myself and others. I didn’t say everyone under the sun thought he was some super genius billionaire.
Dang, this dude was actually way more honest and open minded than the majority of callers that Vaush gets.
He is just smart enough to use his families money to hire people smarter than he is and then take credit
Elon Musk is the kind of person that we can replace with an AI.
you could replace elon with a toddler throwing a tantrum and lose nothing
You wouldn't even need very much "I"
Fortunately he solves no purpose so you don’t need to waste your time.
Jesus I hope not
he’s mostly artificial already
Desi Lydic had the best description of Elon Musk I've ever heard: "How can someone have fifteen kids and still be an incel?"
Because the tragedy of inceldom is, having sex won’t unfuck their life like they believe it will do.
😂 I love her
The I word is a state of mind, not a physical attribute.
Unfortunately...
Amazing. Probably explains a lot. 🤦♀️😂
Vaush: I hate elon musk.
Elon Fanboy: yeah well, can I push back on that.
Vaush: Sure.
Elon Fanboy: elon is kinda cool though.
Vaush: No.
Elon Fanboy: yeah ok, fair enough. I guess you're kinda right about that.
Yup. That was the TL;DW.
bump this comment for the people who don’t wanna watch lol
I know! Uggh he triggers me so much 😭😭
Gosh he's a bad bad man. BAD!
As a neurodivegent, non binary trans girl who partially identifies as autism gender(only ADHD and anxiety diagnosis) I have to say he honestly triggers my Bussy(boy pussy).
I'm so happy to be on your team while screaming "Fuck you ELON!".
Thank you to all who stand strong in this virtuous and progressive fight 😔✊
yep
Seriously.
My first OMG Elon is not very smart moment was when he told the developers at Twitter to tear town the system and rebuild it. When a developer asked him what he meant by that and asked him some basic developer questions, he didn’t know how to respond. It was pretty obvious he doesn’t understand the world of coding or development. One of the other devs actually started giggling at Elon on the call. I’m sure they’re both fired now.
Heard that convo in "Elon Musk Is NOT a GENIUS! | Part 2" by MisesEconomics. Those guys pulled no punches with Elon there and he completely lost it, going full ad hominem instead of addressing their technical concerns. I wish more people questioned his dumb ideas to his face more often. It makes great entertainment.
My mom tried to make me feel better in a convo about me having autism.
She was trying to say I can do more than I think which is a nice sentiment.
However she brought up Elon Musk as an example of a successful neurodivergent person.
She meant well but it was just insulting and frankly just made me wanna barf.
Yikes...
Oh fuck, oh no... someone kinda needs to tell your mother she's... wrong...
Elon is also not autistic.
@@shis1988 you sure? I think we don't know and he gives me the impression to be on the spectrum. either this or he has some other (worse) problem. like some kinda weird narc type shi7
It’s a bit sad. 99% sure that you’ll just be someone with autism and never make anything near Elon money.
Yes, yes he is.
Fr
Yes.
Case closed, pack em up boys. We're going home.
I wanted to write that.
😞
@@glowbies9416 Most of us had seen how Elonstans argued. They never go in details, just vague insults.
hey, i'm an aerospace/astrophysics double major. and the people i have talked to have almost unanimously advised me against going to SpaceX simply because of elon. so his first point is basically invalid immmediatly
yeah but 15-20 years ago the Elon "hype" was very different and his failings as an exploitative boss were less publicized.
but in the end, saying that Elon lending his "hype" to a project is of material value is highly speculative. yeah, people gave him money and a certain generation of workers were probably taken in by all his lofty promises and the way he talks about "science". But being able to talk convincingly means that you're great a marketing, not that you're great at science and engineering or have any particular insight into either.
These days we can point to the mountain of broken/empty promises he's made so the mystique doesn't work the same and when pressed on more than surface level concepts he often tries to answer vaguely or pivot. It's been illustrated very clearly with Twitter when people ask him directly what is wrong with the code base when he's claiming there needs to be a complete rewrite and he reacts with anger when questioned instead of being able to name off the top of his head 3-5 notable issues.
If only every person you debated was this nice and willing to concede to someone’s points that change their mind. What a world.
...referencing photos of elon musk in the control room just reminds me of all the picture of Kim Jong Un visiting 'his' factories.
"I live in California"
"I never heard about the high speed rail that was gonna be built in California or how Elon destroyed it"
"Hey man, I'm train pilled. When you brought up high speed rail, I was pumping my fist"
I don't know any other fellow autist train enthusiasts who haven't heard about high speed rail in CA and it being murdered by Elon. That's our 9/11.
I heard of high speed trains twice for California and then nothing happened. Guess you are better at this ha.
13:00 Alright, I'm 15 minutes in from this point and I'm already seeing a big flaw in the logic the viewer is using. He's conflating Space X's actions/success with Elon Musk's actions/success.
It's like if someone were to contribute the amazing performance of my computer to my own genius of buying it, even if I had NO IDEA what the computer itself could do before I bought it.
Look at trumps achievements building trump tower that makes him a construction worker
Good way to put it actually. Think I might steal it.
Yeah it's largely that. He seems to agree with Vaush and every other point on how Elon is an idiot and even provided more points. But he thinks space x is good and thinks its due to elon for some reason even though he admits he has no proof of this. Which just means Elon has PR...
props to this person for being willing to debate on stream. i get the vibe that he’s not a confident speaker, so i’m proud of him for putting himself out there like this. i disagree with the defense, but i respect his willingness to communicate.
i kinda feel bad for him :(
Fair praise. He is absolutely wrong, but brave.
He's a cordial and respectful debater as well. Dim Cesspool could take a few notes here. He seems humble and honest to boot.
Just lacked some discussion about horse phallus
@@tearsintherain6311does vaush really likes horse phallus?
Musk has this skill where, much like comic books and other sci-fi media, he can rattle off terms in a way that sounds plausible to laymen. It makes him sound knowledgeable to people who aren't familiar with the area of study. He also gets genuinely excited about the projects he speaks about, which is endearing.
I can understand why people might like him initially, just not how they continue to like him after that veneer is gone.
Psychopaths tend to be superficially charming.
literally........ STAR TREK, especially ST:TNG was known for inventing its own "techno~babble" ....and ....i am a Picard fan!
still :)
I think this guy nailed it. Elon Musk has exactly as much to do with Space X success as their janitor.
The janitor is more on the ground than Elon ever is. And more skilled. Elon has practically zero qualifications and is just a fraudulent mascot for his big purchases.
It would be a much better joke if he gave the billions of dollars he pumped into Twitter to a random SpaceX janitor.
We get it you think Elon Musk is the devil and anything he does you could do. Looks p insecure on your part bro
@@noahgeorge5583 That's not true, I don't think I would crash my McLaren that soon after buying it.
@@noahgeorge5583 I'd suggest that you are Elon but your profile doesn't look like you're LARPing as an underage girl...
Elon Musk is living proof just because you have a lot of money, it doesn't make you a Genius. 👨🏿💻
I'd say its more of proof that having too much money eventually leads you to be so bored and narcissistic that your brain turns to mush.
musk is proof late term abortions should be mandatory .......
@@nakfoor1846 It's true. When you can have anything you desire, what's left to look forward to or genuinely enjoy? You miss how the little things in life are what really bring happiness & growth.
It reminds me of John du Pont... grew up rich, never had any real interests, never developed any skills, every single accomplishment was due to paying people or having connections, & he was one of the most uninteresting humans to talk to, people said. The only difference is that Elon hasn't murdered anyone yet.. that we know of.. lol
He's not even particularly bright. His verbal IQ couldn't possibly be above 90, but maybe - maybe - if he has an extremely lobsided cognitive profile that spikes in a few exceptional attributes that in are no way manifest in extemporaneous conversation or any of his publicly observable behavior (basically, if he's an idiot savant) then his composite IQ score _might_ be as high as 125.
Money makes it just more easy to not be a genius and still be seen as one in the public.
The only thing Elon has ever been credited at Tesla for, was the fuckin charging port. And that's was to make sure they could only hook up to Tesla charging stations. Wow, much smart.
I think he also owns a patent for a door panel or.something
T-Zero EV Manufactured AC Propulsion was the EV Roadster car and that was borrowed by Tesla, Inc.-originally Tesla Motors-was incorporated in 2003 by Martin Eberhard and Marc Tarpenning, who financed the company until the Series A round of funding. Both men played active roles in the company's early development prior to Musk's involvement.
Musk assumed leadership of the company as CEO and product architect in 2008.
@@kylereese4822 all done by engineers working for Musk, not Musk. He takes credit for the work other people do. If you believe he's actually designing engines and shit, you're dumb and there's no savings you. What I said was true, Elons name is only on one patent, and that's for the fuckin charging port on the Tesla, that's it.
I don’t hate rich people. I hate people who are rewarded for being narcissistic sociopaths.
Kayne. Elon. Trump.
You hate people who are successful in ways you will never be. Try to be honest.
@@rogerfroud300
Roger Fraud?
That's a very fitting name you have there.
Keep up with your idol worship!
If wealth is a reward then sure. Consider what must be sacrificed to achieve wealth and if it's actually a reward at all
@@kellybertei1582
Sacrificed? Morality? A conscience? Any sense of empathy?
@@seanpatrick1243 So wealth is not a reward at all
Comparing electronic train brakes to car brakes is absurd. Trains never deal with extreme grades and don't have the need to rapidly stop because a car cuts you off, because that is physically impossible. Also each car has it's own brakes so if a few fail in an emergency there is massive redundancy.
As an anthropology student and an anarchist, i think it's really dumb to think that culture can be created at the request of the powerful, like one guy can be responsible for the entire culture of a workplace
Also, I seem to recall that the work culture at Tesla and SpaceX is notoriously, atrocious. Especially if you're black
@@GloomdrakeI think it's a good thing black people don't go to space because their dark skin would make them hard to see
Disagree. When Elon declared a new, super hardcore work culture for Twitter, everyone quit.
One person can make a huge difference
Or you can look at Trump and his influence over American culture through the MAGA/Qanon movement. Damn near led a coup (and still may). Were other people involved? Sure, but Trump was 100% steering that ship.
Or hell, look at Putin and his decades long international propaganda campaign to poison bothe the left and the right with incredible volumes of misinformation to drown out actual facts. Fewer people than ever believe news outlets anymore and that's forever changed the culture of the west
@@Gloomdrake No surprise there. Elon is an Apartheid baby after all
What does anarchy have to do with this? Genuine question. Is anarchist literature concerned with the cultivation of culture?
Musk’s contributions to his companies’ culture are game-changing. It is actually very inspiring to have some 50-something year old turbo-loser shambling around your place of work going “Uhuhuhuhuhh 420. Uhuhuhuhuhuh… 69? Le epic bacon doge awesomesauce”. This sort of thing is real high-level thinking.
To the mooooooon
"Our company is now going to be hardcore. What does that mean? It means you all work twice as hard and I will get all of the credit and money for it".
Living as an isolated rich kid really does fuck with your head.
Who's that ? Vaush 😳
@@robbiekop7 no, Elon
@@robbiekop7You have over 500 comments on this channel and you're only here to hate. Genuinely sad.
Criticise Elon I don't have a dog in that fight. I haven't used Twitter since 2012 but calling him a Low IQ Moron 😩.....now that's *sad*
@@robbiekop7Whats sad is that you have 556 comments on this channel
That Elon defender wasn't so bad. Elon had a lot of people fooled for a relatively long time, and I think most people who were not particularly paying attention had a generally positive impression of him. It's going to take a while for some people to adjust to reality. I have a guy at work who genuinely thinks Elon bought Twitter to save free speech. The guy on this stream by comparison seems to accept facts, he just needs some time to reasses.
I will say a couple of things about electric cars, and Teslas in particular. In Norway where I live, electric vehicles and make up about 25% of all vehicles on the road at this point, and over 80% of new vehicles sold. Teslas are by far the largest single brand here, and to be fair, they have been leading the way in market adoption of EVs. They are not seen as luxury vehicles here, and are competitively priced, especially considering things like range and carrying capacity. I say this as someone who did not choose a Tesla himself, as I have some problems with both their quality record and UI design, as well as a strong dislike of their CEO. But for the company itself, I have to give credit where it is due.
When it comes to the environmental aspecst of EVs, they are *not* the solution to our problems with personal transportation. The solution is public transport and well-planned cities which are designed for people rather than cars. EVs are still better than fossil fuel cars though. The impact on global warming will depend a lot on how power is generated where you live, but at least with electric vehicles, you can approach this problem at the power plant level, rather than having millions of little gasoline generators in varying condition driving around. It is also a fact that EV engines are vastly more effective than gasoline engines (80-90% vs 20-30%), so far less energy is lost to heat and noise.
I think we need to be able to think about multiple things at once. New cars should be electric, but at the same time, we need to significantly reduce car dependency. I guess this is where some of the confusion about Elon Musk comes from, as EV adoption is good for his personal wealth, which combined with his lies made it seem like he cared about the environment. Reducing car dependency, however, is obviously not in his economic interest, and so he works against it.
the dude is right. Up until very recently Elon was personally responsible for building all the hype and marketing Tesla and SpaceX needed to get off the ground. The reason the best engineers will accept less pay and longer hours to work SpaceX vs Boeing is because Elon successfully convinced everyone he was going to lead them to Mars.
Partially right. Neither him, an Elon fan (not a simp, we have to hand it to him) nor Vaush, a harsh critic, were as well-informed about SpaceX as I expected.
My take is equally speculative, but at least goes a little bit deeper than surface-deep: Elon goaded them into applying, but it *is* truly a very engineering-driven and well-managed company. And run by Gwynne Shotwell. She’s the actual engineer, the adult in the room who runs the show day-to-day. They came for Elon and his promises of space exploration glory, and stayed for Gwynne and her actual delivery of said glory, despite Elon’s shenanigans (with which, sooner or later, they, along with all the poor sods at his other companies, had to contend, but at least they have her, seemingly the only executive Musk respects, as a protective buffer).
TL;DR: yes, Elon’s bs served as good PR, but it only kept working by accident, because he hired someone particularly competent and strong-willed enough to keep his general stupidity at bay. Not a very good look for the Muskrat, if you ask me. 🤷♂️
I think thousands of people queuing up for an interview in Tesla would agree with you, that they're there for Elon. Because why not, according to capitalist culture, we all look up to the super rich and we believe we have the same values as the super rich. Which is responsible for creating these fans, even if we may or may not agree with some of the things that people like Elon does.
I only hope that whoever got in will have a great team leader like Gwynne who will defend the team from Elon's actions instead of kowtowing to his whims, but unfortunately I don't see this will happen
@@Mainyehc Vaush looks more like a bad faith hater than a harsh critic to me.
But I appreciate the elaboration in your 2nd paragraph as I'm not very familiar with the situation.
Honestly feels wrong making fun of this dude, like he's clearly just some 14 year old that'll grow out of it given time
There are plenty of mid 30s cryptobros who worship Musk
@@user-gk9lg5sp4yyeah those are the guys you should make fun. Not some 14 year old kid with a brain that hasn’t been fully developed.
@@user-gk9lg5sp4y But that makes it even less useful to mock some kid when there are actual adults with the exact opinions
@@50733Blabla1337 I don't disagree with you
hasn't realised that musk isn't actually gonna reward him for sticking up for him
It's really nice to hear a debate where both parties are being intellectually honest and listening to each other. God I miss that.
Something that Musk DOESN'T himself, do.
@@3tpculp Yyyyyup.
That's still a thing but rarely getting attention
@@tomlxyz Yeah, it exists. It's just not the vast majority of discourse.
Dammit, I came for *blood!* 😡😡😡
In all seriousness, though, this is kind of a rare thing.
Defending Elon Musk seems so reflexive for some people. Like, it’s not a belief derived from anything substantive, it’s not BECAUSE of anything he’s done or said, they just automatically feel like there must be SOMETHING about him that’s worth defending.
In my opinion, it’s rooted in liberal capitalist brain rot. A classic cart-before-horse where Elon’s financial success implies some amount of merit, because otherwise the entire system that we use to measure success is meaningless. And that’s very scary for some people.
I was somewhat of an elon musk admirer until a few years ago. At the time, the facade was more convincing if you only had the surface level public information, and positive headlines/fluff pieces were very common. Obviously, the facade has fallen apart.
That's why he is pandering to the right-wing now, because they're the only ones dumb enough to still believe in him.
They all want to be like him. When you call Elon Musk a bad person, you are calling the people that want to be tech billionaires bad people.
It's actually a psychological thing. Called just-world hypothesis. The belief that the world is fair gives a huge amount of security, predictiveness, positivity and feeling of control. If your actions are good (morally/cognitively etc.) you can reap your reward "good things happen to good people", this correlates with the assumption, if you are rich (reaped the rewards) you did something well, in Elon's case he "must be" incredibly smart. Also this is a fix answer for: why does he deserve richness, while "I"m (who thinks this way) not deserving that. He must be an extraordinary, out of the world genius.
The just-world belief actually pretty strong, even in daily things, like when you go to an interview, you usually think/hope if you are better qualified, and nice you will surely get that dreamjob. So it gives adaptive pillars how you think about your actions, and you don't have to question everything in every moment. (Will I get the job, with my smile? Or my clothes will be decisive, or should've get a friend in the firm.... etc.) Then a dude got the job with cheating(who you already hate because of this). After that the just-world hypothesis helps you coping and move on. ("What goes around comes around", "Well, in a couple weeks they will find out how unsuitable he is"....) etc.
This also a "reasonable" cause why society collectively has a bad opinion of poor people.
@@AquaCoalaNest Beautiful explanation
Tesla and SpaceX have been given SO MUCH taxpayer money. That has to be a contributing factor in their success. So: American taxpayers, well done! You've likely contributed more to the success of these than Elon has. You deserve a raise.
I disagree with this person, but they seem genuine, and I can respect that. I'm glad he wasn't clowned on too hard.
😂😂
Disagree with what?
Their statements were in good faith most of the time.
yeah I was pleasantly surprised by the mutual respect in this debate, congrats to the both of them on that
As an engineer, I recently had several employment options and I went with the lowest paying option because it was the technology I wanted. Not all of us just value the highest paycheck.
I work in LIB R&D... I had the opportunity to go to a new company that had interesting tech and even higher pay... Part of the reason I stayed is because my team now is amazing and we really believe in the vision of our supervisor.
Same here. Not only is it the kind of work I want to do, a Senior Engineer (which I am now) gets 30 days of leave a year + 7 holidays. It also violates policy to work unpaid overtime because the owner doesn't want to burn people out. The 20-grand or so pay hit is worth being allowed to have a life, at least it is to me.
as a mathematician i support this message.
For me, a big issue with musk is that he takes credit for the actual work that the incredible engineers do. If he says “my engineers” instead of “I“ then I’d have one less issue with him
Musk's huge ego and demand for credit/attention will never let him concede credit to the engineers and the hard work that they do.
Like Trump boasting as being smarter than all the Generals, Musk rarely if ever gives credit to the actual engineering brains behind Tesla and SpaceX..Fanboys call Musk the genius, Then Musk just gives them & himself a nod of approval.. Basically he's a bi-product of the Sci -Fi generation, a Comic book groomed characterm Again his fanboys call him Iron Man, Elon Stark.
I love space X but I hate Elon Musk. He takes credit for the amazing engineers. The credit should all go the the engineers who do the work.
@@bear3616 But without him they could not work on such projects. It so happens that a lot of what he does is quite successful.
@@AcidGubba Yes but does that mean he can take all the credit.
Honestly this Elon fan did well in this debate he recognized his faults and never simped that hard for him and he seemed well informed.
I mean, he sounded pretty nervous, and a lot of people find it pretty tough to think clearly when they're nervous. Vaush was taking advantage a bit and over-stepping his claims, and left a lot of low hanging fruit and engaged in fallacies that he normally never would. Surely it was because he felt comfortable that he wouldn't be challenged on anything.
I absolutely despise Elon, am a petrified stutterer when public speaking, and generally try to avoid confrontation, but with Vaush leaving that much slack I feel like even I could have done better than that poor kid.
@@paulybeefs8588Vaush didn't take advantage of this person at all. He was super conciliatory.
@@claires1063 Vaush mollifying this kid isn't mutually exclusive to him taking advantage of him in the debate. He absolutely took advantage of this kid and the fact that he was not at all prepared to argue his points. Vaush iced the cake with weak arguments he never would have even tried against someone who was more articulate or had a any capacity for logic or good faith debate.
Just one example: Vaush introducing his own quick research into the convo, but accidentally coming across info that Teslas are 2.5x safer than the average automobile. He immediately started discrediting the source of his own findings because he didn't like what he found. That never have flown with somebody who knows how to debate or was mildly familiar with the subject they were discussing.
We KNOW that Vaush wouldn't have challenged the source if he happened to find that Teslas are twice as dangerous. It's fairly common knowledge that EVs have extremely heavy batteries in the base that gives them a low center of gravity, makes them far less likely to roll, and overall makes them far safer. But this kid had absolutely no push back and Vaush was happy to walk all over him.
I actually agree with Vaush on his overall Elon take, but I noticed this type of stuff happening the entire conversation. I imagine it must have stuck out like a sore thumb to someone who disagrees and/or really knows the points.
Elon really is the human embodiment of the "Get ready everybody, he's about to do something stupid' Simpsons meme.
Europe made Tesla change the self driving name, whatever it was, because they realized people thought the car drove itself. So they found that the consumer was being lied to about the capabilities of Tesla's self driving, So no, the consumer cannot be trusted as much as the viewer claims. Good talk though, Kudos to the viewer
Plus the term autopilot. Plus Musk in an interview literally said that it could drive 2000 some miles without you having to do anything yet their engineers say you need to keep your hands on the wheel in case it malfunctions.
I am sorry for the people who think Elon Musk is intelligent, they have never been in the presence of smart people.
This is why he is able to launch rockets and your so called smart people can not even develop any popular software 😅😅😅
@@anthonycosta128 you mean the engineers at spacex launch rockets? elon hasn't developed shit in his life lmfao
@@anthonycosta128 I have never seen Musk doing any calculations, any programming or any building for his rockets or cars. :D
He hasn't done anything for humanity, and the very very few things that came out of his companies were invented by his engineers :D
I was talking about real intelligent people, like some of my professors, who have multiple PhDs and are actively trying to cure deadly diseases such as cancer. I've got one professor who did a phd on nuclear physics and quantum mechanics, and after that did another phd in medicine lol
Again, I feel sorry for you that you haven't ever seen and communicated with intelligent people in your life.
anybody reasonably sensible, even if they disagree with Musk, would give him credit where it's due. Only dishonest, malevolent, resentful, envious, arrogant, pitiful losers would make stupid statements of the kind you see in this comment section. These weasles congregate here, and the smell is positively revolting
@@anthonycosta128 he doesn't launch any rockets, he has no degree or professional expertise that allows him to do that
Dude's very first argument boils down to "Musk must be smart, because he's been financially successful."
I think that's all we need to hear about his position.
mostly boils down to attributing the engineers at spaceX being smart and therefore Elon is somehow smart as a byproduct because he hired them
Yeah, basically Musk is smart becuase he can buy preexisting companies, take goverment welfare, and pays smarter people to do all the work.
That position is actually in every single comment thread on instagram. It is literally the only way bootlickers can convince themselves that shit is fair.
You all are so effing petty. Just because Musk is deranged politically does not mean he contributes nothing of value as Vaush was trying to argue.
Elon started a rocket company that was the first to create reusable rockets and did not go bust. He started a new car company that was a graveyard to fortunes and tesla is thriving.
I think part of the reason is Musks direction. Is it so unfathomable to you that some negative personality quirks can help a business? I think one quirk of Musk is he can't stand someone telling him no. He got a minor lock down in CA and fast tracked himself to Austin Texas. What happens when a bunch of engineers he hires to work on reusable rockets says it can't be done or is too difficult? Him being an obsessed dick who can't accept no makes it more likely for him to drive the people working for him to push through.
That is a possibility, but again, you all are so petty you cannot allow that.
This is basically why the MSM still takes him seriously. They don't understand the (many) flaws in the engineering Musk promises, and they trust 'the financial markets' to be correct all the time, so much so that since Tesla is valued at X, it must surely be worth X. Just like with Theranos.......the media all believed it was true, until they all believed it wasn't. Musk is next.
Elon Musk is like Andrew Tate, he knows how to get attention.
Attention is the real currency nowadays and he is playing us.
Okay I began to respect this kid the moment I heard him correct Vaush on the tunnel stuff so as to not give Elon’s company or him credit for it. That’s a nice display of nuance that makes me think he’s sort of just holding onto vestiges of admiration for Elon against his at least functional capacity for critical thinking that pushes back against that admiration.
I know 5 idiots, and Elon is 3 of them.
Poor kid, he really doesn't know what he believes in, he just made Elon his idol. Hopefully this talk with Vaush will guide him out of the darkness
He seems really close, I think it probably did.
He wasn't a full blown Elon fan, he called the Semi an outright scam and admitted Elon lies a lot. An actual Elon fan (ie. a Muskrat) could not find a bad hair on him and would constantly hail him as the savior of humanity.
I think that's really unfair to the debater. He's clearly aware of several criticisms of Elon, and raises some himself in the debate. From my gauge, he just gets annoyed by statements he deems invalid.
@@zagreus5773 they gotta look at his PayPal day profile pics for the bad hair.
How can that which is one be three? What you're saying here is basically that Elon, that nasty scoundrel, is actually the Christian trinity?
I'll be honest: This wasn't that bad. Surprisingly constructive and civil conversation.
There was a distinct lack of discussion about equine phalli. In general more of that is to be expected.
Yeah and I blame most of the bad parts on him being young.
Needs more equine gonads
@@phelan8385 i blame it on horse coque
the lack of equinal nether regions is disturbing
He's honestly a very kind guy which likes to debate even if he was a bit shy. Wish he would come back at some point.
You guys are so vulnerable to empathy baiting no wonder wokeness succeed.
@@aaad3552so many buzzwords to say so little
@@aaad3552 Are you actually this dumb or just baiting?
@@aaad3552the projecting is so unreal here
@aaad3552 what you wrote is pretty stupid
"He doesn't always sell snake oil" "He doesn't always lie all the time" This guy lol
To be fair (since a fair few in the comments section are hounding on him), the musk defender was a pretty good sport. He kept things civil, didnt resort to desperate tactics, many times was willing to take the L. I know some muskrats who will just spew any nonsense to avoid facing any harsh truths about their god-king
Very true...made it a good conversation
Good on this guy, not only does he seem to be willing to engage in good faith, I think he's holding his own against Vaush despite how clearly nervous he is. I think he actually came out ahead on the point about Elon's reputation having something to do with Space X's success - Vaush basically conceded 90% of the point to him, the only thing he didn't cede was the conclusion. Like, sure, Vaush isn't in full debate mode here, but it's still impressive.
Always nice to find someone who I disagree with who I can respect and isn't an obvious ghoul wearing a human skin suit.
Are we watching the same debate. The elon defender has had to concede several times. And doesn't really have any real defense for elon.
Elon is a genius at lying to tech simps.
SpaceX could have easily outspent Boeing cause Boeing actually needs to make profit so their spent is more frugal, while SpaceX has everything riding on this one thing to succeed.
Not true. SpaceX can easily survive on the current operational capacity they have now, with or without starship. SpaceX is the main provider for NASA,
Yikes. I was once a fan of elon's, I thought he was the exception in that he had actually worked really hard and made it into a position to do good. There seemed to be a lot of very positive opinions from people whose perspectives I thought I should respect. NASA consultants and the like. I was tempted to come on the stream to defend him. I worked at his Nevada factory for like four and a half years during which I volunteered for Bernie's presidential campaign. I was site lead for about sixteen small precincts at a high school. I still thought of Elon as the good face of capitalism, but now I know how exploitation works. I was very bothered when he supported the Bolivian coup. Now I'm a socialist and I want to start a worker co-op.
The entirety of this guy's argument boils down to: _"Elon Musk is as valuable as a good janitor"_
Bravo...
A single janitor is FAR more valuable than Musk
@@JessesanManthis. If Janitos stop cleaning the bathrooms, the entire place can get shut down. Elon stops working, literally not a single soul would know/feel his absence.
That's why he's a fan boy, in reality even a lousy janitor is more valuable than Elon Musk, a janitor's negative impact is limited, a billionaire's is inexhaustible.
@@braxinIV If Musk quit, productivity would go up
@@braxinIV Ah, Janitos. Patron saint of janitors.
Elon musk is what happens when you give a redditor billions of dollars
The most accurate summation
Redditors are not that stupid
@@rewer have you ever been to r/conservatives
@@ayarzeev8237 counterpoint: r/196
@@OneFluffyKiriko I had never heard of that subreddit so I went there, I still have no idea what it is about even after visiting. Is this a counterpoint meant to prove redditors are smart?