Capitalism vs. Socialism: A Soho Forum Debate
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 13 พ.ย. 2019
- "Socialism is preferable to capitalism as an economic system that promotes freedom, equality, and prosperity."
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That proposition was the subject of a November 5, 2019, debate hosted by the Soho Forum, a monthly debate series sponsored by Reason. Arguing in favor of the resolution was Richard D. Wolff, an economist at the University of Massachusetts and the author, most recently, of Understanding Marxism. Taking the other side was former Barron's economics editor Gene Epstein, who is also the Soho Forum's co-founder and director. Reason's Nick Gillespie served as moderator.
It was an Oxford-style debate, in which the audience votes on the resolution at the beginning and end of the event; the side that gains the most ground is victorious. It was a packed house, with about 450 people in attendance. The pre-debate vote found that 25 percent of the audience agreed that socialism was preferable to capitalism, 49.5 percent picked capitalism as the better system, and 25.5 percent were undecided. Despite a technical problem at the event itself, the Soho Forum was able to recover the final vote totals, which saw support for socialism drop by half a percentage point and support for capitalism increase to 71 percent.
Produced by John Osterhoudt
Photo Credit: Brett Raney
The thumbnail looks like Bernie Sanders vs Bernie Sanders
It’s actually Bernie vs Trump. Socialist vs capitalist
Smallhat v smallhat
Reuben Thomasson Lol you okay bro?
Its Bernie from Universe A versus Bernie from Universe B.
bernie sanders vs the demons in his head
"This moderator was terrible"
Capitalist bootlickers 🤝 Socialists
Lmfao I love how I know what meme you’re referring to
@@Htiy Memes transcend language.
He was absolutely horrible. I was screaming at the screen “shut the fuck up”z
The fucking moderator asked a question
A person that sounds like Bernie Sanders vs a person that looks like Bernie Sanders.
Don't you just love it when people actually reason?
I don't care either way, to be perfectly honest...
@@Loquacious_JacksonBetter to scream at each other instead?
@@browniepotato definitely more entertaining...
@@Loquacious_Jackson social media and other technology has really messed up our brains, we can't even watch important stuff like debates if they aren't super entertaining for us? Maybe entertainment isn't a requirement for enrichment, maybe our population doesn't need to be entertained 24/7
@@Loquacious_Jacksonwhy
The thing that struck me the most throughout the debate, is how two people with vehemently opposing views, respected each other, actively listened and could engage in heated conversation, without resorting to petty insults and underhandedness. They both remained lazer focused throughout and even managed to find some common ground. In parts of the debate they stood up and protected the others right to speak and be heard, when heckled by audience members.
A lack of civility and the inability to respect a political opponent in this way, is perhaps the greatest threat to modern democracy, politics and freedom of expression we currently face.
This is what serious people sound like. Very different from our world leaders isnt it?
Socialism is the greatest threat to democracy and freedom of expression we face today.
goood
I wonder how old politicians go to sleep peacefully everyday inthis day and age when so many people are afraid and hungry everyday. It is is so sad. And they all want to be humanitarians while killings of innocents go on and on everyday.
They serve the same boss ( globaliste s) against a common ennemi which is the people.
Gene Epstein begins with an apology to Richard Wolff for an earlier outburst, he subsequently transitions into a critique that personalizes the concept of socialism to Wolff’s interpretations, rather than addressing the ideology in a broader sense. This strategy subtly shifts the debate from a general discussion to a more personal critique, which could be perceived as a nuanced form of personalization that edges towards underhanded critique, albeit within the bounds of formal respect.
EDIT: Yeah... Gene is literally attacking Richard's character and whenever he touches on the primary subject he just gives examples of all the current problems we are living with...
We were accidentally on purpose not taught economics at school
We were
You learn that in college
Constant Christine Not necessarily and their are economics in high school but it is usually an AP course.
Big Bad Wolf you literally learn civics and economics in sophomore of your high school years
Big Bad Wolf nobody’s stopping you from reading books and educating yourself like everyone else. Btw a study showed that 60% of millionaires are self made and come from working class families. Also school isn’t meant to teach people how to become rich, it’s meant to teach people skills so that they can sell their labor in the market. You don’t need school to start a business
This beats watching two 17 year olds duet each other on TikTok
I just made the decision to put down TikTok and watch this
@@Naomi-dt9rn it’s nice at first but ya eventually it’s good to put tik tok down and dive a little deeper
leave some respect for us mature ones 😭😂
@@varadhk3159 to be fair I’m only 18 so I don’t have room to talk, not hate to 17 year olds
Exactly lol I got tired of the same arguments over and over tiktok is a nice place to start though
that moderator is the only thing i dont like about this debate
Great debate from two extremely interesting men, even a terrible moderator who struggled to hide his own bias couldn't ruin it
A person that sounds like Bernie Sanders vs a person that looks like Bernie Sanders.
*both proceed to talk about Bernie Sanders*
Eastern Europe jews
😁😁😁😁
@Sepher Agon hahahahhahah what
@Sepher Agon no need to be rude, honey.
*Don't let this comment distract you from the fact that mr krabs once sold spongebobs soul for 62 cents*
A true capitalist.
You didnt distract.... you brought this tragedy to my attention.
Spongebob and squidward need to seize the Krusty Krab. While Spongebob provides the labor for creating the burgers and squidward runs the front end of the business taking orders from the customers, the capitalist (pig) crab pockets the profit while giving the two workers a pittance. Nobody earns the value of their labor.
Obviously this is why spongebob and squidward live in squalor and discomfort next to Patrick, who literally lives under a rock, while the bourgeoise live elsewhere. Krabs justifies his profit because he procured the capital to create the restaurant and owns the formula, while actively doing nothing of value for his workers or his society. Plankton, meanwhile, is a reflection of the class struggle as he is ruthlessly outmatched at every turn due to the inherent inequality in the system.
Neither worker can “choose” to get another job because the reality of Bikini Bottom is that there aren’t any other reasonable options. Squidward obviously does not voluntarily wish to be there. There is a guise of individualism and self determination thrown over a flawed system. Unfortunately, as long as they can feel superior to Patrick, who is lower in society, they too believe they can one day be like Mr. Krabs.
YES, an argument for socialism. Finally
Dandelo what kind of bullshit is that? crabs built the whole restaurant, he owns it, it is his, the formula is his, spongebob and squidward would have nothing without him, he could replace spongebob and squidward but they can‘t replace the formula, i don‘t know if you are just joking or just a dumbass but there are more than enough dumbasses who would believe the bullshit you just wrote so i took it serious
I need to be more educated in order to know where I stand in this conversation. But, coming from an ex-communist country, it seems to me that innovation is not something produced by capitalism itself. Innovation happens everywhere, but in communist countries ( because of dictatorship and not because of the system), innovation was inhibited (intellectuals killed). Therefore, the fact that we associate innovation with capitalism, seems to me to be erroneous. I don't believe competition creates innovation. I believe innovation is not created by the business mind inside of us but by the visionary, creative spirit. We innovate because we have scientists, engineers, artists, etc. not because we have businessmen. Afterward, businessmen often use those innovations to their advantage. And if you are a creator and a business person, at the same time, like Steve Jobs, that's ideal. But the reality is, not everyone is. It is pretty rare. Because business and creativity are each one in itself an expertise. So, I think competition creates anxiety, and anxiety is not a favorable ground for creativity. I believe we create because we are human beings, it's in our nature to create. Not because capitalism would allow it. And I believe that communist countries had creators and innovators too, but they just had dictators in power. Which stopped creativity. And capitalism too, has a different kind of dictatorship, but it's more masked. It's not obvious, that's why it's hard to be seen. In capitalism, the dictators are the multinationals that monopolize the market, making it almost impossible for local businesses to survive. Ultimately, I believe both of the ideologies have important values and we should be smart and pick from each one what it's truly nourishing for the fulfillment of humanity.
1. You observed correctly that Communism/Socialism prevents innovation but then reached the bizarre conclusion that it can happen anywhere.
2. You went onto make some stupid assertions based on what you "believe" rather than arguments.
3. Competition is necessary otherwise everything turns to shit very rapidly. Life creates anxiety. You can't wish it away by voting yourself a political ideology. Your result will be the opposite of intent.
4. Businesses can exploit or suppress technological innovation, depending on the circumstances. But unless there is commercialization, there is no possibility of innovation either.
@@willnitschke you seem to have fun with the word stupid? You can still make your great point without hauling names.
@@Bob_Ugee But where would the fun in that be? You can't fix stupid. But you can enjoy making fun of it.
@@willnitschkewhat makes you think this doesnt make you stupid?
@@veragutarovaSo basically you're saying I'm correct and I therefore hurt your feelings?
This was thought provoking as well as entertaining. As with most things I'm processing questions that I had regarding a lot of what's been presented and hope to be successful in finding answers.
Always enjoyed listening in on combative debate forums like this😊
Socialism was covered by 'Second Thought', but Capitalis mand 'System-Faiures' (like Prison-System in America)
was better covered by 'Some More News'
@@slevinchannel7589 socialist propaganda
@@slevinchannel7589 What do you call someone who can't even spell even with an automatic a spell checker to help? A socialist...
Scroll down the comments to see a bunch of people not addressing any arguments made
Ironically like your text😉
Example: this comment.
Mr. Wolff offers nothing but rhetorical flourishes, strawmen, and conflation. What argument is there to address?
@aish b yeah, debates often do that.
Welcome to youtube comments!
I learned what capitalism and communism is only after I graduated high school.
Im learning about it right now in 12th grade lol
@@mystuff6045 definitely watch Richard wolffs stuff
Socialism and communism are two totally different from each other and barely any Americans even know that
Gimpzilla not totally different. All communist are pro socialism but not all socialist are pro communism. I do agree though a lot of people don’t know the difference.
Kenzz_mw yeah. Socialism is the community claiming the means of production, communism is the state.
I like how instead of the debaters calling each other petty names, they respectively stated their points and argued them out, thats what im interested in!
Marx said that socialism depends on different situation. Socialism was created to fight against exploitation, not to remove private property in some cases.
Marx said a lot of things, 99% of which were wrong.
@@willnitschkejust like you now keep liking your own comments Schizo
@@mountainjewsDo people who explain why your Socialist cult is stupid, hurt your feelings? 😅
Marx made a clear distinction between private property and bourgeois property, the latter being private property in the means of production (think businesses).
@@Rastaferrari829 But Marx was wrong about virtually everything, so who cares what he thought?
Can’t tell if anyone in the comments favors capitalism or socialism, just that they don’t like the moderator.
Edit: Shit 2k likes and 166 relies. Never had that happen thanks guys. Not that that means anything, but it feels good.
Lmao 🤣🤣
Hate, at the the of the day, is what unites. 🤣🤣
A mix of both ideologies seems to be preferable.
@@applesnpears9828 The issue is the people with power they do not allow reform or give us the bare minimum. Government is protecting private interests over the madnesses, our capitalist society is not democratic it’s just a mess. Even the markets are bullshit now. So many issues with our systems today. If anyone here does favour capitalism I think even they would admit our market is definitely not free. Currently trying to learn the best approach to make things better.
@@applesnpears9828 congratulations you’ve come full circle and arrived at FDRs new deal
Socialism here. Was on the fence until the capitalist guy started talking s*** about the socialist rather than keeping it on the subject
What I learned from this: All socialists look like Bernie Sanders.
Thomas Sankara, a black man: *visible confusion*
@@rockstarskolas it is simply called... a joke
Too bad bernie isnt one😅
@@liampremo6798 then what is he
@@jb8785 simply a social democrat. For all the fear mongering that he would end capitalism... He would actually preserve/save it. The same way fdr did.
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The moderator is insufferable! What made him think making stupid immature remarks was appropriate?
the reason is they know each other and it may seem insufferable to you but to them its batter. like you talking to a friend where you call him a dick and he says stfu you lost ten dollars last week on a match a child could have won. people these days are too sensitive.
@@kylemenos I don't think these extremely well known philosophers know a random college bloke that deeply to be buddies. A moderator shouldn't try to constantly insert his ego into something that has nothing to do with him. He was even told indirectly to stop by one of the audience for his immature and stupid joke. Perhaps try to be more observant of social interactions?
Get the fuck out with your "People are too sensitive these days" dog whistle.
Moderator "I'm going to be a nazi"
First person to ask a question " hello I am from Germany" lmfao
and then he tells him to shut up lmao
I thought I was the only one who caught that lol
Can you post the mark point lmao
@@reddseth9733 Golddddd
@@czvkxo I believe it’s 49:00
The moderator thought everyone was there to listen to him
The moderator decided to channel a poor man’s Tony Montana from Scarface. 😂🤦🏼♀️
🗣🗣
@@ViaMirage cringe comment bro
Idiotic statement from the moderator indeed.
What a beautiful debate, nice to see people disagreeing productively. Highly educated professors at their best in their field! Very informative.
😊😊😊**#😊
So grateful for this mature discourse on a hotly debated topic. I don’t recall learning any socialism in HS or college. This was very informative.
I've never seen a man debate himself before.
Masdebation
@@Liveitlarge247 Motion to make that a new word.
@@Liveitlarge247 Mass Debate
@@SteveJobzz seconded
Liam H are you from Boston?
Imagine if US had a presidential debate this clean..
may be in our dreams. US Presidents are very far from this caliber of intellectualism lol
*we
That couldve happened if trump wasnt one of the debaters
@@alextrainor2552 oh yeah because Biden’s decomposing brain connections wasn’t it?? 🤣
@@alextrainor2552 Trump 2024 baby!! USA 🇺🇸
The problem with those debates is that half the audience vote for the position they disagree with at the beginning so it looks like the arguments convinced them. It happens with every one of those debates. It was obvious from the start the way most people would vote.
"don't let school get in the way of your education" - love it!
Mark Twain
dont let corona stop your education at home it is better to learn at home then to go to school and be exposed to the virus high school kids get the virus and a 12 year old died of it so it is saying even a toddler can get it your kids are to precious to let go to school love them while you can all you can and keep them safe and at home college can be done online just like grade school i rather be doing this for my kids would,nt you take care everybody and for all of you just so you know mega dosing vitamin c will help clear out phmonia
Mark Twain with brilliant!
Brilliant
you get qualifications in school, true education comes from living life
POV: You're here looking for valid arguments and just seeing everyone hate the Mod
the mod really shouldn't have that job though lol
CAPITALISM AND THE SO CALLED DEMOCRACY ARE THE BEST ASYLUM FOR THE RULERS, THE ELITES AND THE RICH TO LOOTING THE POOR IN THE NAME OF JUSTICE BUT IT IS A LURE FOR THE COMMON AND THE DENIED.
@@mcs106 oh shut up
@@arpitabrahmachari7649 he's right...heter
@@theamericanspirit8590 Mohammed's statement was completely out of place, like he was just hijacking a top comment. Doesn't matter whether he was right, he shouldn't have said it here.
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@samdeymontradintips
Mr Sam Deymon T L G Mhandle .
Though I started with as low as $15,000 actually because it was my first time and it was successful.@@DenzelCHendricks
I just love watching everyone fight to get all their thoughts and questions in.
can we all democratically vote to eject the moderator into space?
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for lunch. But the moderator does suck, instead can we write a letter to the representative who employees him?
Davin S I wish no harm, even to those who may seemingly deserve it. There are things I suck at much like how this moderator sucks at moderating . “I have spoken.... “ lol
Honestly that dude is such a pretentious prick
The speakers are great !
@rob see Gene Epstein said on the Tom Woods podcast that he had asked the mod in advance to be biased in favor of the proposition. That way his victory could not be disputed.
Best line of this debate, "Don't let school get in the way of your education."
- Mark Twain.
Lol, everyone is a moron here.
@@katalinas9264 love Mark Twain
@@dirtydingusmcgee8926 ditto
I haven't let school get in the way of my education, and I have learned that socialism is one of the most vile ideologies on the planet. It is responsible for the murder of over 100,000,000 million innocent people,and has oppressed billions.
I am from Uganda, thanks to the participants for their debate. It has given us a new direction in the reasoning of ideas.
Yes
I can really appreciate a healthy debate and open dialogue.
Moderator's more interested in being funny than being good at his job.
Agree. Pretending to be all about keeping things on schedule while wasting time throughout with his distracting smarmy comments. Needs to learn to check his ego at the door, and that he's not as funny or charismatic as he thinks he is. Remarkably stupid comment about Bernie Sanders too which led to another big waste of time. Worst kind of moderator.
th-cam.com/video/4QqWZL_xksQ/w-d-xo.html
@MajorLeague yep. Socialism sucks ass and always has.
@@ExPwner ??? lmao USA is a mixed economy that embodies socialism...
@@jamez3875 wat?
I just wish the rest of the mainstream media had these serious type of debates that way people could be properly educated and have real battles of opinion as opposed to just saying Venezuela or taxes
Yeah, but then that would make us educated. They don't want that.
I couldn't agree more. I'm about as far from an academic or intellectual as one could get, a truck driver as a matter or fact, and this was just like pure nourishment for my brain i was instantly so engaged i fired off 3 or 4 comments before Mr Wolf even finished his opening statement.lol My point is the gatekeepers think the average Joe has no interest in any sort of long form or in depth philosophical discussion/debate when that couldn't be further from the truth. These are the big ideas that will shape our future for better or worse and as a society we should be breaking them down, scrutinizing and re-scrutinizing them constantly from all sides n angles.
@@buckyflex1 Intellectualism is about sonder interest in the truth, not profession. I wouldn't make the assumption that a truck driver is incapable of being an intellectual. Frankly, discussion of important economic ideas *must* include the working class. That is the driving force behind Marxist ideology, whether you think economic systems should be capitalist or not. Frankly, I would prefer a capitalist system where some board chairs are just employee representatives, almost like a company parliament. The thing is, this might actually be less efficient than just having the government impose a required board structure. Conversation as to what the best form of the system would be is up for debate, but all stakeholders, including employees, should be considered.
Like what @blackearl7891 said, the msm has an agenda and it is not to educate the masses, and if they do, then they educate the masses to what they want you to think not what might be true
@@buckyflex1 vary true my frend
If socialists can do better than capitalism, why haven't they?
Because they can't.
@@willnitschkeexactly, they can’t. They just think they can.
economic sanctions, political assassinations and war.
okay dummy ?
@@willnitschke how many times do I have to own you and ExPwner before you accept defeat ?
@@Stafus you didn’t own anyone dumbnuts. All you have done is spewing idiotic Marxist babble.
This professor only criticizes what capitalism is and says that socialism “can do better” but he does not say precisely what Socialism can do better than Capitalism and how!
Is easy to talk!
Go to your public library and read his book if you want examples of where and how socialism has worked.
Here's an example of a socialist bread factory and Robotics company in the United States. th-cam.com/video/-VdbFzwe8fQ/w-d-xo.html
Here's an example of Communism at the micro-level in the United States
th-cam.com/video/wBJADlN2Bic/w-d-xo.html
He's not just talking. His arguments are backed up with hard empirical data and historical documentation. I guess you didn't watch the entire video. Also, the video only covers about 50% of the debate. Conveniently there was a lot of editing by the right-wing reason Foundation. Surprise surprise
@@michaelmappin1830his claims are not at all backed up by empirical data and they did not edit out the video. You are a liar and a paid shill
@@michaelmappin1830 So basically you have nothing except links to other socialist nutjobs on utube? And even here the best they could do is try to talk up a *bread shop* as the best example in the US ? 🤣😅😂
@@willnitschkenot only that but his best way of talking up a bread company is that they make $70k a year in California, and that is after they had to buy into the company.
Not only that but this company also recently laid off a good chunk of its workforce because it isn’t some massive success.
@ExPwner Mad Mappin and the rest of the fruit loops also neglect to mention that 100% of the profits means 100% of the risk. If or when the business fails under such a model all the workers are personally up for the debts of the business. You don't just leave and get another job. You would have to pay off the debts with your assets such as your home, car, etc.
Moderator: Let's stay on topic! (makes a joke about a guy's man bun)
Guy: Yeah my man bun is-
Moderator: STAY ON TOPIC!
lmao!
That was annoying
I bet you are a fan of William Lane Craig
@@mdbahrozbaburali What an amazingly accurate "guess" 😛
@@Vic2point0 actually I found you yo be the only defender of him in a video related to his debate with Seam Carroll. I admire William Lane Craig a lott. He is one of the best intellectuals i have ever had the privilege to listen to.
Need more of theses debates, intelligent people using facts to argue there point and not dummies screaming at each other like monkeys
Wolff doesn't really make any sort of point though...
The gist of his whole argument is 'I want something else'
But the thing he wants is already that we already have...?
He just wants to force it onto everyone I guess...?
He doesn't make anything close to a technical economic argument this whole debate.
Not to mention that almost all of his 'points' about capitalism can be refuted by just silently pointing at Scandinavia...
Eros well Wolff’s whole argument is based on the whole Marxist idea that workers are exploited by wage labor.
But we can look at Scandinavia and see some of the most most egalitarian and successful advanced economies of all time. Some of the highest GINIs, best economic mobility. All the social programs you could imagine...
These are mixed ‘capitalist’ economies..
Free markets, large private, for profit sectors. This private sector and the growth it brings can be taxed to support social programs.
Wolff’s whole argument that ‘capitalism’ is inherently exploitive doesn’t really stand up to common sense economics.
At least domestically. Internationally is another long discussion to have.
John Proctor labor isn’t the only input of production. Labor is important but not necessarily all that important in many companies.
We can talk utopia all day and use that as a framework to criticize the current system.
But ‘workers DESERVE to be paid their average product of labor or it’s EXPLOITATION’ is a pretty dumb oversimplified starting off point.
John Proctor ‘some owners treated their slaves well and taught them to read’
You missed the entire point...
As I said...the most advanced, economically mobile, richest, egalitarian system OF ALL TIME...
That’s an achievement bud...
But you just whine that it’s not good enough because of some flawed and oversimplified philosophy about 'exploitation' and baselessly compare it to slavery.
Does it go to ANYWHERE? they have debated this since forever
Every comment I’ve read on this comment section refers to the respectful conduct both use throughout the debate. If that doesn’t highlight the depth the current political debate system has sunk to, don’t know what does…
I am happy that this is a neutral debate, normaly when you see these type of debates one side is clearly presented as uneducated
True. More effective to show the Marxist as uneducated.
This is just two different versions of Bernie Sanders from alternate realities
All doctors of economics around the same age so lol
Bernie sanders and Joe Biden said that Socialism is found on Surplus and there are all kinds of surplus American government hoards stuff in warehouses and they call this surplus there are many many many kinds and they were talking about giving it away where you always save more money so much junk the government hoards
it is like matter v anti matter economics the thing is Bernie said that it is provided by surplus and so did little Joe Joe is not all together to be able to lead he should be removed from the election before he causes any more harm to America or himself and or others
It's actually the Bernie Sanders from our reality but split in half
Wolf is the biggest pseudo economist I’ve heard from Harvard tbh
"Yes, what is your question?"
"Well, I-"
"ALRIGHT, THANK YOU, THAT'S ENOUGH."
😂😂😂.
Majority of the engines (employees) who are behind World production of goods and services are abused and ripped off under the guise of capitalism. Man eat man society.
@@abdullahiibrahim1785 Lol You are mistaking the majority with the minority like Lenin did in the past.
@@sealking3838 unsubstantiated claim. also, abdullahi is not Lenin. not all socialists are the same. we have disagreements about what socialism should be.
Lmao
The socialist is much better fed than the capitalist in the debate…hmm
Sure, he criticizes his money source but doesn't stop taking the cash.
The socialist is delussional.
Im Socialist and your edelusional for thinking learning about what i am, think and say from people who wanna make e look bad
is anything different from evolution-deniers learning about Evolution form no one else
but 'already existing evolutiondeniers'.
Shame on you as youre learning method is objectively identical. You learn about Gravity form flat-earthers,
bbut not literally about the words i just said but instead the words 'Socialism'.
@@loturzelrestaurantnope you are delusional. Your other two accounts Slevin and Nenmaster say the same delusional garbage and peddle the same dumb socialist propaganda. You have not made a single coherent argument on any of those accounts and only hurl insults and reference the same few channels over and over again.
How so? Care to elaborate for us all so we can have actually discussion?
Don’t let school get in the way of your education
Was it Mark Twain who said that?
@@grammagranski8095 obviously
@@faressalih7253 to be honest
u dont need to go to school to learn capitalism
it needs experience and ambition
Growing up in the 90 definitely didn’t learn about untill deep in my 30’s and yes that is sad.
@@michaeljosephjackson2364 It would be nice especially being blk and not knowing how the world wrks.
"in the age of the internet, dont let school get in the way of your education."
professor wolf absolutely won and destroyed his opponent in this debate, but that quote from his opponent here is very telling.
@@Azerath2 no he didn't you dumbass. He lost the debate in every way. He lost the vote count and he didn't have one coherent argument. He lied the whole way through. Attributing war to capitalism, making bogus claims about wages and poverty....all lies.
@@Azerath2 , not only did Epstein not have a valid counterargument, he ended up agreeing with wolf most of the time. How can anyone in their right mind argue against workers owning and controlling their own labour and resources? Obviously worker cooperatives keep more wealth and control with the communities and the workers. That means greater purchasing power for the community. It makes communities less dependant on government and billionaire corporations when it comes to jobs and consumer goods. The workers are doing their own work rather than someone else's.
@@ExPwner that vote was from right winged people. Stop calling people dumb. unless you're looking in the MIRROR
@Me Super not an argument, fucktard.
My husband's brother was reading a book on marxism in high school and he got suspended from school. The US the land of the free. Haha
Yeah, people can get touchy when someone is making a public show of reading a text that lead to the deaths of around 100 million people in the 20th century. Weird, huh? However, Marx is not banned in the US. You can still read his books if you wish, just as you can read Mein Kampf, if you're more of an ethno-nationalist socialist over a Marxist, for example.
Nice debate. Richard talks like a revolutionary. "We want change but we have no concrete plans on how to do that". Gene talks about practical change. "Let's try to fix the problems we have with current crapitalism".
So why aren't they fixing it?
@@TalkwithLina There is no need for reform, since Captialism is better than socialism.
@@misterauctor7353 ya ya bootlicker
@@misterauctor7353nah, there is definite need for reform. Even if you are a capitalist, there are glaringly obvious issues with our current system, the rich get richer and the poor get poorer.
Where the educated socialist and educated capitalist differ on this train of thought, is much like Mr. Epstein said, the libertarian capitalist prefers less regulation and only government intervention to prevent monopolies. The socialist, depending on their belief, says either by violence or democracy we must overthrow the entire system and implement a socialist system, usually through massive government intervention.
But to say we need no reform is frankly idiotic.
that doesn't logically follow from the premise. Also, no.@@misterauctor7353
Always hate when a moderator injects themselves into a debate to this extent
Agree!
same here!!! if he wanted to ask he must cue up!!! 😡😡
You should have a look at debates in Indian News channel, where the moderator comes with his own agenda of spreading communal hatred.
Specific suggestions: Arnab Goswami debates (News Channel: Republic India)
Have a look at any of his debate and you'll know the sorry state of Indian news media.
@Bob G most commies do
He's the instigator
Guys I just replaced the T H E in THE with A M O N G U S and got Among Us 🤯🤯😱😱
Fuck everybody.
I thought I'd balance things a bit.
Do you think people ho fight in TH-cam comments actually watch meaningful content? XD
Ni🇳🇬gga
This is an hour long debate.. people who aren’t chill are elsewhere just entertaining themselves and fighting in the comments.
Only retards are chill on this topic.
I hate billionaires and exploitation but only an idiot will claim socialism is better. so many countries tried to do it and it never worked. Capitalism is far from perfect, but it provides you with opportunity.
I love passionate people open to discussion. My biggest interest has always been thinking about what the best way would be to create a sustainable system that allows everyone to be free to live their life the way they want. Sadly though, discussing this is often very difficult as a lot of people are too caught up in their own beliefs and react very negatively to any form of discussion.
Apparently most people don't want a discussion, we've been indoctrinated into believing arguments and discussions are the same
Wow. The pro speaker, Wolf, quickly moved to emotion based arguments over logic and fact. He briefly explains by citing correlative suppositions and insinuates that any conclusion other than what he was spouting is based on ignorance and fear. A vastly illogical and fallacy ridden argument. He proclaims that monarchies are evil because people decided that. Those same people also warned about the dangers of mob rule that is the result of a complete democracy. He ignores that any socialism requires capitalism to exist. He would be wise to do an experiment to test his theory. He ignores that there must be a sacrifice to bring about a better future situation. He is claiming without any real evidence that capitalism fails. Thank heavens that Epstein was able to point out the ironies of Wolf's.
Then in rebutting Wolf agains goes to fallacy arguments, trying to insuate that only Socialism can produce a better world without telling how. He makes inflammatory comparisons that have no real basis in reality, again fallacy arguments. Both he and Marx acknowledged that there will by necessity to have some elite decision makers. But in this debate he avoids that completely. He is either evil or really stupid in his assertions. Suprisingly since he has economics degrees, seems to understand very little about Macroeconomics and Microeconomics. The freedom to implement worker owned business and industry already exists. They want to take away that freedom though and mandate something that nobody really wants in order to bring about the impossible utopia. "Taking" must be instituted to start the socialist world that he wants, he believes that once the taking starts that corruption will never occur as it has throughout history.
The first question was extremely stupid and completely off topic.
Second question... eventually, you run out of everybody elses money. Capitalism is the only way to fund socialist programs. That's the only way China could be viable.
Third question... Wolf accuses Epstein and anyone he opposes of doing the very thing that he proceeds to do himself. Of course, he attributes all attrocities of history as being caused by capitalism, which he can only point out that the two happened in history and one was not caused by the other, but he blames Capitalism. The results of USSR, China and Cambodia are very well documented as being the actions of the socialist regimes (in order to establish themselves.)
Fourth question... wealth is the only method that any economic system can be sustainable. Choices are always the desire of individuals. Individual rights always start. Wolf accidentally says that people should not have choices, which is a monstrous contradiction of his premise of democratic control of all econmics.
Fifth question... leaves out the influence and control of medical industry by the introduction of the government. (Note: the lobbyists and the bureaucratic corruption of the government is at the base of that. Economics can and will equalize based on supply and demand... always.
Platitude question... again stupid distraction.
Closing Wolf: Bernie benefits greatly on his stances because of capitalism. In capitalism, you have the freedom to choose socialist-type structures within it. You though are not promoting that... you are promoting the commandeering and elimination of the free market. If there is economics in existence, then there will be trade.
Closing Epstein: Success is the difference. Under one the success creates wealth, under the other success will not create anything. At the core, socialism is promoting more and more government control (less freedom at every level.) The real problems of society are being ignored because of the promotion of the extremes. The extremes of either direction is not desirable and both in the end are because of the growing central government.
Uuuhm, any Socialism requires Capitalism to exist? Wtf, this is such a made-up argument, bro, not even YOUR OWN SIDE knows about it yet... cause you... literally... made it the f-ck upppp.
Dude, have ysome selfrespect.
Timestamps
0:00 Intro
0:41 Welcome and Rules Layout
2:20 Socialist Opening
20:06 Capitalist Opening
38:24 Socialist Rebuttal
43:40 Capitalist Rebuttal
49:17 Q&A
1:23:53 Socialist Closing
1:31:21 Capitalist Closing
1:38:35 Final Results
Like so others can see!
ok got it, thanks for the effort man, you are a blessing to the viewers of this video.👍🏻
Thanks
Thanks man.
Bless you
Wow all of a sudden I feel like a hero for taking like 10 minutes to scrub through this video
Rarely we see both those in the side of socialism and capitalism in so much agreement, we both find this moderator annoying.
@Larry Riffett You're an idiot.
Solidarity 👊
@@wackoyacko4541 and me
@Larry Riffett wait, if Libertarians are Socialists, who are actually Capitalists? AnCaps only or what?
@Larry Riffett I'm sorry what?
The main problem that I had with the socialism professor is that the debate thesis was that "socialism is preferable to capitalism".
If you are defending this point, you can't go on to argue that Socialism is a nebulous, undefined, ongoing criticism of capitalism necessitated by capitalism itself. You have to define what socialism is and then argue for it. Otherwise, as the capitalist side rightly argued, all we have from Socialism is a bunch of failed experiments and people unwilling to define it in real terms. At least with capitalism we see good results across the board. Could they be better? Sure. But i'm not willing to risk starving to death or getting murdered by our very own thought police to find out whether it can be better through socialism or not.
Socialists are all liars and sophists. If they are held to being truthful they have nothing.
Criticizing Capitalism is like criticizing oxygen.
The issue you are running up against is that Marx was never proscriptive, he was descriptive in that he was describing the problem of Capitalism as it exists as an unstable unsustainable system. That it was a source of human suffering and unforced errors, and that we can do better and should expect better for our lives. He described the traits of the Communist society, moneylessness, classlessness, etc. But he did not know how specifically we were going to get there nor what it would look like beyond those two things. He said this because what the Communist society would look like would be dependent on the needs of the people who build it, who *wouldnt* be him.
Communism will meet the needs of the people who build it and the people who build it are the people who will revolt against the excesses of Capitalism. IE: Not Karl Marx. He can only describe what the end result cannot have in order to meet the basic criteria of what is Communism vs what is not Communism.
@@thomashenry4798 Sorry but if you're citing Marx as an authority in the 21st century, you're clearly not very intelligent because he was wrong about nearly everything. Capitalism has been around since the first tribes swapped furs for spear heads and it will always be around. All the Socialist/Communist states have collapsed or exist as dystopian dictatorships. So "descriptively" Marx got everything backwards.
@@thomashenry4798 Capitalism is stable because people will always transact if there isn't some entity to stop them. Marx wrote mostly horse sh*t. 🤣
Incredible debate!
Moderator makes fun of audience member's appearance. Juvenile and insulting behavior meant to intimidate and demean.
The fuck
right? very inappropriate
What should you care if it is meant to intimidate and demean, ultimately it is your own choice if you choose to let those words resonate within you or not.
I think it was meant to be funny rather than demeaning. It was definitely in poor taste and insulting/demeaning even if that wasn’t the intent though. This moderator is terrible.
Lol yeah. He is typical of certain type of libertarians.. Did you see his dressing sense. He literally wears that jacket to each interview.
A certain type of libertarians are just immature people.
This is way more formal and properly conducted than last year's presidential debate.
of course, because these guys are competing for a position
crazy how unintelligent our candidates for president typically are
That's because these two are fundamentally different in philosophy were as Dems and Republicans are essentially identical save a few social positions.
That debate was kind of a low bar, I think. ;)
We should stop with the whole politicians business it's a joke.
Okay - the goal isnt democracy - the goal is to protect the constitutional federal republic. we arent supposed to be 'fair' or 'equally paid' - you work hard, as an individual, and you get what you put in - not what everyone else makes. its what makes us better than everyone else in the world. someone who works in a mine - shouldnt be paid the same as someone running a Fortune 500 company - they are DIFFERENT people - with different strengths, and different personalities - one was smart enough to invest, and grow stocks, all that stuff - the other puts in back-breaking work - to keep the lights on. you could argue the miners should make more in general, but someone running a company - or running a company that runs companies - will always make more than someone who provides labor.
you crazies also seem to forget that taxes were suppose to be voluntary - used to rebuild after wars, and no other time - with have the biggest armies in the world, and the most guns in the world, and the most number of unalienable rights - in 1913 they allowed the government to be running - on stolen taxed funds from the people - income tax doesnt need to be collect, for a state or country to run - 2 states dont have them right now - theyre going fine - and Charlie Kirk makes good points about it - that you can have a 'socialistic' view at the community level - most people want their neighbors to be safe, and better off - than someone hundreds of miles away on the other coast for example - you coukd for example - eliminate most taxes - and have local city taxes, that are voluntary - where funds and uses are 100% transparent - so that cities stay funded, emergency services always active, roads in good condition, cool city-wide projects funded with ease - and accountability when things go wrong at any government level - but as you go farther up - stricter free market, capitalism HAS to stay in place, to keep it free.
Bailouts are a perfect example - the government isnt allowed to bail companies out - a free market allows the people to decide whats in their best interest - not some shady 4th branch of government that was never elected - if lets say - most of the country decided to stop buying a certain beer, because they did a 'woke' move, and made a MAN pretending to be a woman - their spokesperson - we the people get to decide to stop buying their crap, and they get to loose stocks, and billions in sales - thats the free market - and the government USEd to work that way too, it doesnt now. The same goes for so called 'black business investing', or 'diversity hiring', or 'diversity scholarships' - its all just racism against whites, or other races - discrimination, which is illegal. if the country is 60% white - and doesnt want to buy products aimed at black people - then companies should stop being 'woke', and appeal to what the majority want. giving black-owned companies government money for example, thats unconstitutional - because you arent allowed discriminating based on race - so the free market answer - would be to get every liberal to just, spend money with black-owned businesses in their area - in black history month, or whatever - rather than trying to illegally give people money based on race.
How can i find those professor's?
Destiny got destroyed in this debate
Vaush got destroyed in this debate.
cultural catholic bruh
Dr Ninja JF got divorced in this debate
Please tell me you're being ironic with that choice of words.
@@AmateurContendr It's a meme
They should have unionized against the moderator
Police unions are the reason corrupt officers always get paid leave and rarely fired.
Maybe he is mad because the 30 seconds he mentioned are not relevant? I did not notice nothing related to that
MrIHadToDoIt a good example of why not all unions are good. In this example, it gives undue to power to police, who are not working class. Their relationship to economic production is enforcement of the laws instituted by the ruling class (private capital). Unions are beneficial for the working class to collectively bargain, aka to have any chance at bargaining at all instead of simply being fired for asking for more equality. The purpose of the police union is to shield cops from the consequences of their unlawful behavior, which is disproportionately used to afflict the working class
Yes, thank you.
Bah! Socialism! They should have simply outcompeted him in the marketplace.
This is what a debate sounds like. The crap we are used to on television is not.
Wolff offered nothing at all but a guy trying to sell books.
That’s because he is a lying grifter. He makes his money selling lies to idiots.
@@ExPwner Capitalism is fueled by stupidity
@@mysticalrandomness4282 nope only socialists are fueled by stupidity
@@mysticalrandomness4282 so true Mythical Brain! Capitalism is dumb! We need Socialism, even if it killed around 100 million people last century (mainly starvation), 'cause Socialism is so smart! 😉
"If it's too difficult for you to hear me out, then it's a sign that I'm getting to you." Legendary.
Any idea what the bloke yelled out?
"Stop complaining"
Sorry, he said "stop whining" I don't understand the other part.
So true, so sad.
@@titantron5840 his mind will never change unfortunately
I really enjoyed this debate. I miss talking about issues without screaming.
did someone say trump?
@@rtyums6830 To be fair I've seen far more people who dislike Trump screaming at people than his fans. Maybe because the anti trump type of person is more social and outgoing so their behavior is caught on tape and online. It's a mess either way you look at it.
Immediately think of someone lmao
@@LiquidGirlfriendFreeBoy Trump is a literal manchild. He said that coronavirus was a hoax initially, before blaming china for him failing to control it. He loses an election and throws a tantrum claiming it was rigged and stirring up his supporters without evidence. These are all valid reasons for disliking him without going into his right wing politics.
@@rtyums6830 I don't exactly disagree with you. Just saying that a lot of left leaning people scream at others now a days in debates, if you can even call them that
I’m Cuban and I can confirm Socialism is very profitable offering equality. Everyone is equally poor…
Behold, 'income inequality' solved.
Honest question, but do you think Cuba was any less poor before the revolution? And if so, why?
@@vidal6069 Honest question, world poverty has decreased dramatically since the 1950's yet Cuba has gone nowhere. Don't you feel sick in the stomach spruiking for tyrants?
I’m sure the embargo and western inference has nothing to do with it.
@@1999mreli Yeah, it's not the communist dictatorship that's to blame, it's always 'capitalism'. 🤣
In the interests of having a smooth running discussion while minimizing interruption, can we all agree that Nick Gilespie should never run a debate again?
Absolutely. He has time to crack jokes, then won't allow people asking questions to make a single statement to add context to their question. It's the Nick Gillespie show here. This isn't a debate. It's the Nick Gillespie show.
MARXISM, COMMUNISM AND SOCIALISM ARE PRODUCTS JUST LIKE CAPITALISM.
If you are interested in buying some MARXISM, COMMUNISM AND SOCIALISM PRODUCTS:
See my sales pitch: th-cam.com/video/UnkMA0l7Af8/w-d-xo.html
MARXISM, COMMUNISM AND SOCIALISM ARE PRODUCTS JUST LIKE CAPITALISM. MARXISM, COMMUNISM AND SOCIALISM PRODUCTS ALL MARKETED TO YOU AS FREE CANDY AND ARE SUPER ATTRACTIVE TO SUFFERING PEOPLE. SOCIALISTS ARE THE BEST SNAKE OIL CAPITALISTS OF ALL TIME. YOU END UP GIVING UP ALL YOUR FREEDOMS AND ALL YOUR BRAIN FUNCTIONS UP FOR ONE CRAP PRODUCT THAT DOES NOT EVEN EXIST - (FREE STUFF). CAPITALISTS ONLY THRIVE WHEN THEY GET WHAT HELPS! HOWEVER, YOU ONLY HAVE TO BUY WHAT YOU NEED. CAPITALISM REQUIRES REAL LIFE EXPERIENCE AND EFFORT AND FULL FREEDOM TO THINK AND TO SEE THE SNAKE OIL SALESMAN AS HE APPROACHES YOU. YOU THEN CAN REMOVE THEM FROM EXISTENCE NOT THOUGH VIOLENCE BUT BY NOT BUYING. THE SNAKE OILMAN COMES IN MANY FORMS. YOU NEED TO LIVE FREE TO FIND THEM!
i was laughting on the fist question , the dude talked too much and tried too much to build a context.
But then Nick just tried to land some jokes just like that "man bum" joke, moments that he makes it more confusing and odd (i did laught about the joke).
Lost interest in socialism real quick one thing no one talks about is the human greed and obsession of power, this is in our nature. Because of this socialism will never work,
what a horrible crowd
So you’re telling me they aren’t the same person
they are both so adorable I'm sorry haha
😂😂😂😂😂
It wasn't really live. The same actor played both characters. Have you seen the parent trap? Its like that. You're welcome.
"I'm gonna be a Nazi" - The Moronic Debate Moderator
and he interrupts the guests to make silly comments... this guy shouldn't work as a debate moderator at all
It was a foolish attempt at humor, characterizing Nazis as simply rule enforcers, and then humorously taking on that affectation as a moderator. It left a bad taste in my mouth.
@@markhantla7915 Nazis generally don't like the word Nazi...
This beats watching two 17 year olds duet each other on TikTok
@@amosbackstrom5366 its not that they dont like the word. Its more that they know it'll get a guaranteed negative response which makes it harder for them to radicalize people
capitalism: people work, and they deserve rewards. one pain, one gain.
cheaters get eliminated, and of course by nature there has to be measure
to prevent their in advance destructive gains. but again, one pain, one gain.
men decide their own lives, and they choose and hold responsible for it.
private asset,
It's a bad system. There no choices that people make. They are forced to..
@@collinsmathebula7384 entirely wrong
And then AI replaced 80% of low and medium skill jobs and
Your solution is for the world population to be get exceptional skills to match machines or left behind
And bam
Let me ask you this
will you hire 100 ppl
Or an AI with one operator
Well that is happening rn in some sense but in 20-30years you will become obsolete and a billionaire will tell you to get good
@@Ghost-pb4ts Yeah that's what's going to happen... 🤣
@@willnitschke* happening
This forum is the foundation of liberty itself. We now have two different sides of a very important issue. One of the things I grew up with was that Communism was evil, but no one ever explained to me what Communism actually was. I had to find out myself. When I took an Economics course. The Iranian teacher who was not even a professor said he would give me an A+ if I did a paper on the greatness of Socialism. I thought if I had the time I would take him up on that.
" I freed a thousand slaves I could've freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves" Harriet Tubman
Love the sentiment, too bad she didn't say that
employment is nothing more then being a wage slave warren buffet said something like this on you tube but hell the highest paid baseball player in MLB is getting paid $500.000.000 that is some blessing from slavery and the second highest paid MLB player is getting $250.000.000 still some blessing from slavery and now they are talking reparations from sports teams ,and ice cube is talking about the movie business owing them reparations when they get millions of dollars to act in a movie like barber ship and that sure is not beating on him that sure been blessing him real good with millions of dollars and greed and philosophy are nothing more then criminal narcissism Obama is the same way and this is all mafia trying to use and abuse the past as much they can to exploit white people for the past after all that has changed since Dr king and it is never enough milk everyone for all you can get hell even MCDONALDS is a financial blessing to all those who work there it sure beats the he3ll out of social security
@@michaelregan4409 Why is getting a wage equal to slavery?
@@hasaniwu there is a old term that Lincoln started and that was Wage Slave a nd it is anyone who works for a wage and the term later turned into employee and the owners became employer not master because we got free will to work for the individual now
@@hasaniwu Because yes people are getting wages, however the amount they are receiving is too inefficient. This forces them to increase work time. Ultimately, a massive amount of people are spending more time working than they are fulfilling their passions.
The host is savage: "Get to the point. We don't care where you're from-- we're all strangers here."
total savage introducing them as young men too 😂
"Are there any womem in the audience wanting to make questions? Would be nice.
"Oh, you gotta a man bun, thats close." Hahahahah he was having his time.
He also said "I'm going to be a Nazi" just before the first question from the audience, which was from a German kid. He's a classy fellow indeed!
@@hugorezende199 I didn't like that first part, as if women couldn't speak for themselves. Are those women being suppressed from speaking? Or is that women are expect to have a varying opinion?
@@skysheep747 I think the audience was heavily male. This debate was sponsored by Reason Magazine, a right wing free market Libertarian organization. That kind of libertarian (as opposed to a left libertarian like Noam Chomsky) is heavily white male. Not all of course and I imagine the moderator was hoping to find some exceptions.
You can’t count the DPRK it is a dynasty dominated by one family.
DPRK and Cuba are the last cold war style socialist countries left, also the most sanctioned in the world
American must say no to socialism
Thank you, but American people will decide whatever they want!
@@JeiFit And they decided to say no to Socialism. The problem with Socialism is you can vote your freedoms away but can't vote them back.
@@willnitschkekeep using ur alts to like ur own comments lmao pathetic
@@mountainjews Indeed it is pathetic, with you spamming hundreds of comments moaning your arse pain that I make you religion look stupid. Poor darling. Maybe if you post a few hundred more, I will laugh even harder. 🤣
@@willnitschkenone of my comments mentioned religion lmao what
"If it's too difficult to hear me out, it's a sign that I'm getting to you."
Ouch, professor.
Whoa, rhetorical skill!
What did the guy say?
Wolffe don't play!! 👍♥️🤣😂🤣
@@BOOMProductionsVIDs "stop whining"
Sounded like the dude just wanted to get kicked out. Because I would've laughed at his dumbass while kicking him out
When the comment section is praising both sides for having a good debate and not breaking out into arguments, you know it had to be good
Too late, the communists are in force here and buthurt now.
@@janehrahan5116 You seem like the only one butt hurt Jane. Take your partisan politics elsewhere
@@kiwikiwi2483 he's actually right. Michael Mappin the paid shill has been spamming commmunist propaganda for over a year on this video. He's paid to support Richard Wolff and this is shown by the fact that they spams every Richard Wolff video he finds with copy/paste script full of false and misleading information.
@@ExPwner I didn't find this Michael Mappin comment anywhere. So again, I will ask the both of you to take your ignorance and political bias elsewhere and let the logical people enjoy a civil debate for once.
@@kiwikiwi2483 sort comments by new and look at the replies. He's been responding to practically every comment for over a year solid and he does it from a script.
I've not once been ignorant. I've been plenty logical.
At 1:12:40 what is the book he is talking about? I couldn't make out the author :)
Pursuing happiness by Stanley Lebergott
God this guy just repeats the same old tired platitudes. He uses slavery as a charge against injustice while proselytizing for a slave state!
You noticed that too? 🤣
People in the comments are like: the debate was so good there’s no need for us to join it
Socialism got debunked, what else is there?
Literal robots lol
I'd Argue we need a referee
There's nothing stopping people from saying fallacies, throwing tantrums, calling each others names and so on
I am certain that I am now dumber for having listened to Richard Wolff.
@@FidgetyGuy you are correct... and so am I.... Vote for Pedro
“Please keep your questions short”
“Hello, allow me to explain my whole life story”
"Just one question please"
"Okay here are my questions"
"Dark humour is like health care, not everyone gets it" - USA th-cam.com/video/bEJGL8kDjc0/w-d-xo.html Watching this on the most capitalistic medium ever.
@@jamshaqtv3039 awesome
“Let the capitalist be capitalist and let the socialist be socialist” my favorite line from the audience.
Except the capitalist ends up having to carry the Socialist, who would otherwise starve to death.
@@willnitschkeI think that's why epstein was in favour of more worker co-ops, because despite a few successes they still have to rely on the capitalist system to function
@@JohnnyRocker023 You can be in favour of things that don't work but so what and who cares? There are tens of millions of businesses in places like the US, and millions more are created each year. The vast majority of these are owner-operated businesses. Because that's what people do given free choice. How many worker co-ops of the type Socialists babble about? Are there even 50? And did any grow organically or were they all gifted to the employees by an entrepreneur who couldn't sell the business or didn't want to?
@@JohnnyRocker023 There is no reason not to be opposed to something that doesn't require force or compulsion. The reality is that about 2 million people start new small businesses each year and approx. zero of these are worker co-ops, because the only people who like them are Socialists, who would never be willing or able to start one.
@@willnitschke there was no dependence on anyone before capitalism destroyed self dependece and communal societies
People living in the West often have the naive misconception that socialism equates to a very small gap between rich and poor, which is appealing to a population that makes up the majority of the population for the simple reasons that 1) people are genetically lazy, and 2) the majority of the population is mediocre, and joining in to be able to get a slice of the cake without having to work for it from hard-working, smart people is of course a very comforting thing to do.
However, if we look back at the history of "socialism", we will find that all the former socialist and communist countries, from the Soviet Union to China, North Korea, Cuba and Yugoslavia, had a small gap between the rich and the poor. If we were to rank the richest people in the world today, Musk would not be in the top 100 because there are at least thousands of senior cadres in the Communist Party of China who are richer than or equal to him. Today's China has the largest gap between rich and poor in the world, but it is an actual socialist country. The same can be said for the high cadres of the former Soviet Union and today's Kim Jong-un family, ambitious people who would be 10,000 times worse than the kings of the past once they succeeded in demagoguing the populace and coming to power on the back of socialism.
Many people may be naive enough to think that what the Soviet Union and China and North Korea did was "fake socialism", and that real socialism is democratic and equalizes the rich and the poor, such as Scandinavia is doing.
This is not the case.
The ultimate goal of socialists has always been to abolish democracy and turn it into a one-party dictatorship, and the USSR and China are just what they look like when they reach that goal. The only reason they're still willing to play nice in Europe and North America is because they can't completely eliminate the Tories just yet. If the Conservatives disappeared, the US would immediately become like North Korea.
The root cause of all this is that the most fundamental driver of communist ideology is cohesion through hate, as is the case with ultra-nationalists, such as the Nazis, and ultra-Muslim organizations, such as ISIS and Hamas. The only difference is that these three ideologies have different pretexts for dividing the enemy from us, one being "the proletariat wants to physically destroy the capitalists", one being "the Germans want to destroy the Jews", and the other being "the Muslims want to destroy One is "the proletariat wants to physically destroy the capitalists", one is "the Germans want to destroy the Jews" and one is "the Muslims want to destroy the infidels". This kind of consensus, forged through hatred, is capable of creating the most powerful machine of violence in the world, as has been the case for the past century and continues to be the case today.
Conversely, you cannot hear from the proponents of capitalism that "the capitalists must exterminate all workers", and you can hardly hear from those who do not believe in Islam that "we will exterminate all Muslims through jihad".
That is the difference. The purpose of rallying hatred is to convince the individual to give up all individualistic thinking and individual rights, to surrender everything he or she has to the collective, and to devote himself or herself to a so-called "great cause". All dictators call on you to give everything you have in the name of the collective, if you don't believe me, don't you? Even in the United States, how much money did the leaders of the Black Lives Matter make out of this? They never cared about the deaths and lives of ordinary black people, they just used it as a reason to enrich themselves and gain their own benefits.
Funny how you call people living in the west "naive", when you, yourself, in the making of your argument ends up repeating typical fake news and misconceptions that the general population have in regards to socialism because their only source of information is the private media corporation. I'm gonna give just one example to illustrate what I mean: mentioning the Kim family as an example of rich people and making an attempt to compare them to Elon Musk. This is the sort of stuff that you will only see being repeated by people who have zero knowledge on the topic they are commenting, aside what is parroted in mass media hahahaha.
@@mr.alphard2581 Screeching "propaganda" because he destroyed your religion using reasoned arguments just makes people like you look even dumber. 🤣
BTW, all governments produce propaganda. That's always been the case. The fact that you believe one type but reject the other doesn't mean much.
I feel like you should probably include the names of the debaters in the title. Seems a little odd not to.
The concept of debate is new to you.
@@billfargo9616 What are you talking about
would u really want youtube to demonotized and de rank this videos more...
@The Cheap Investor that's mr dr wilf to you
Perhaps the search can pick up on what is in the description which does contain their names? Not sure how youtube works but a quick google search of their names with the word debate brought it up nicely.
I imagine the clickbaity title, which drew me in, does its job well
Why can't debates be like this. Well informed and civil. Not teenagers yelling at eachother on tiktok.
Its simple, this is an adult debate and tiktok is a child debate. No one should expect anything more when one side has a lifetime of wisdom and experience and the other isnt very far from diapers and coloring
It wouldent be entertaining in my humble opinion .Part of politics is the theatrics, its how people some times get engaged in the moment.
How dare you age-shame teenagers, with their vast wisdom and lived-experiences! Alert twitter and the media, you must be cancelled immediately.😆
Why you even expect anything super productive out of teenagers is beyond me. But what also eludes me, is why you don’t acknowledge that these old souls were, at some point, those young teenagers. We all start somewhere.
I don’t think you should expect much out of tiktok debaters, but also don’t shame them. They’ll mature eventually.
I wouldn't know. I'm not stupid enough to watch tiktok. I believe these men are considered experts in their subject. Kids on tiktok are just mimicking what they heard in class that day from the cool teacher.
Great debate. I didn't really like the very last speech since it went back to stereotyping. But besides that it was pretty epic. I learned a lot.
socialism works perfectly we have Venezuela Cuba Argentina as a example
Of all of the socialist countries Venezuela is the worst example.
The moderator is disrespectful, sarcastic, and lacks credibility to moderate a debate.
the moderator is paid by the chinese communist party and isn a traitor to democracy, freedom and America like the rest of the corrupt american academia eleitists/leftists.
He showed up wearing a leather jacket😂
I'm sorry that your education was incomplete, but this is what happens when education is optional, and at personal expense. Those without any curiosity spew ignorance as fact.
Loser George, you're an ignorant fool.
Enjoy your dystopia.
I disagree. I was grateful that he disallowed preambles to questions. I, too, don't care about the questioner's name or background. Get to the question! Maybe we'll have time for more questions that way.
@@JimLockett Turd eater. Shove communism up your sorry arse. Communism is not just a false and evil ideology, but goes well beyond any dystopian worldview. It has faled miseraly every time it was tried out, in all parts of the world. karl Marx was an ignorant fool, an imbecile a, a fraud and a liar, like all communists that follow his limping steps. Communism is immoral, anti-human, dishonest, intolerant and the supreme manifestation of ignorance and stupidity, Only retards, liars, douchebags and criminals endorse communism.
Either way you lean on this issue, there’s no Reason to have Nick Gillespie moderate another debate ever again.
Such a straw man
Yeah, the first audience question was very poorly mishandled. He also didn't structure the debate as he outlined at the beginning with statements, rebuttal, and then Moderator Questions. I think he just got too antsy and rushed into the audience questions
@jamee boss Capitalism: you made these chips but I own the chip brand so I take 90% of your labour
@@Bolizen +Uncle Sam = I need YOU! To give up 25% of your income!
Municipality + State take 10%
Down to 6.5% of the profit for the product made 100% by you.
Now, depending where you live, you must spend some on the side, to spend any on goods.
@@Bolizen Capitalism: the worker chooses which company to go and make chips. If he doesn't like the boss he can leave at any time.
Socialism: everybody is forced to make chips and give it away to be distributed
Jacque has a community in Flordia and he gave tours of the community and explained how his no monetary system worked. He had futuristic homes he designed.
Socialist guy seems angry :)
My three personalities infighting at 3am
Lol Same. My mind is always at a state of internal brain war when it comes to economics
@Think Before You Type they’re running on oil money...
I laughed so hard.
The current system we have is total shit. It's a fantasy that deregulation will "fix" Capitalism. We knows exactly when you let the reins off of corporations, they screw everyone over.
We need a good balance. Socialize healthcare and have some basic human services. Help ensure workers rights. If you're saying that a company can't manage to run successfully in a society where people have socialized services and reasonable rights, then they deserve to fail. There will be plenty others who will be able to manage it.
I'll say it again, anyone who thinks that we should let wealthy private companies and individuals run this country (which they already do) unrestrained is living in a fantasy if they believe that it'll magically fix everything.
@Think Before You Type Second Thought is communist propaganda.
"if a capitalist is polluting your backyard, you should sue him"
ah yes. Next time a major corporation is polluting the air I'll just sue the owner. That will probably go fine for me. Sounds perfectly fair
Fair point
I don't know where you live but large corporations in the US constantly get screwed over for bogus reasons where large sums of money are paid out to regular people
@@phil6715 Name one such corporation that has been screwed over for bogus reasons.
@@54tisfaction In 1992, 79-year-old Stella Liebeck of Albuquerque, N.M., sued McDonald’s after the fast food chain’s coffee caused severe burns when she accidentally spilled some onto her lap.
Liebeck was awarded $200,000 in compensatory damages and $2.7 million in punitive damages
A woman purchased a new 32-foot Winnebago motor home from a dealership in Oklahoma. On way home from a football game she drove on to the freeway she set the cruise control….and left her seat to go and make herself a sandwich! Needless to say the motor home veered off the freeway and crashed. The woman sued Winnebago for, are you ready….not writing in the owner's manual that a person can’t actually leave the driver's seat while the cruise control was on. A jury Oklahoma awarded her $1,750,000 PLUS a brand new motor home
www.lawfirms.com/frivolous-lawsuits