@@Cataly_ely I think this works; in the Troy Saga Zeus was almost comforting him with the line. Here he couldn't care less. Plus it's on us to remember, which drives it home harder.
It's almost like it is: the big emphasis on "CHOOSE" and "someone's gonna die today and you have got the final say" it's basically the same thing as the dilemma in The Horse and The Infant - as Odysseus singing "please don''t make me do this" & the reprise of the chorus of Just a Man reinforce.
they are also quite literally a reverse of each other as ody chose who died in the first song of the first saga of the first half and the last song of (technically) also the first saga of the last half
@@oceanberserker Nyx can, she did it when protecting her son Hypnos from him (because he put him to sleep). But that's the only time she cared to do it.
@@oceanberserkeridk if it’s “no one can check him” i feel it’s more “the ppl who have an actual chance at doing so never care enough to actually do so”. His brothers for example, Poseidon and Hades have been said to rival him in strength even if not stronger they’re pretty much close enough, but Hades wants nothing to do with Olympus usually and Poseidon doesn’t rlly care to be the king of all the gods, nor does he usually find fault in Zeus’ dealings anyway
Eurylochus, the Odyssey: "Every form of death is vile to us wretched mortals, but the most wretched way to die is by starvation. So, let us cut out the finest of Helios’ cattle, and sacrifice to the gods of the wide heavens. And if we return to Ithaca, our own land, let us build a fine temple to Helios Hyperion, and fill it with precious gifts. And if he is angered at the loss of his long-horned kine and chooses to wreck our ship, the other gods’ agreeing, well for myself I would rather die quickly in the waves, than waste away slowly on a desert island." Even in the original, Eurylochus really sounds like he had just kinda given up at this point
It's not in the musical but by this point Eurylochus and crew were on the island for a month, starving to death, trapped by Poseidon's storm, just staring at the cattle everyday. Eurylochus just went "Fuck it, let's do this".
@@Slash_to_your_heart I'm not too sure if Poseidon would have let them stay still long enough to fish let alone get any fish but hey doesn't hurt to try
Anyone else notice how during Thunder Bringer it is one of the first times the crew doesn't call out to Odysseus when they're about to die/in danger. Because for the first time during their travels they know that he wont save them. Even during Mutiny, when they leave the island, they turn to Odysseus for guidance, despite claiming not to trust him anymore. But this time, where it's their captain himself that dooms them, not a single person, not even Eurylochus calls for him to aide them. Odysseus has put himself(Penelope) first and the crew knows there's nothing to do about it, and instead accept he wont save them, and therefore attack him. Just a fun thing I noticed :)
Very well said. I like how you mentioned he puts Penelope first, not even his own life. I have a lot to say on that, actually, but I have absolutely no patience writing it all in a little comment section and you probably won't have patience reading all of it lol
@@m1sh474 Hey man, ik its a story but realistically speaking if the man whom you entrust your lives to has chosen tht the cost doesnt matter, fear runs in, especially since after all theyve been through Odysseus is their last hope and tht hope has now become your doom. YOU FIGHT FOR YOUR SURVIVAL
Some fun facts: - In the Odyssey, Circe is the one that tells Odysseus to steer close to Scylla because it’s either her or Charybis, but the latter would kill more men - The cattle belongs to Helios, the god of the sun, who is also CIRCE’S DAD It’s funny how even after they left Circe’s island, she’s still very important to the story
While you are probably correct (I'm not saying your wrong) I think for epic even though helios is the sun god at the time of the odyssey, I think for epic the sun god is going to be apollo because in god games when Zeus tells athena who of the gods she has to convince to let ody go, one of them is Apollo and helios doesn't pop up in the song any way so far.
@@bakugoufan1232I think that's just because Helios got his "apology" in this song (the apology / justice being that Zeus killed the people who disrespected and killed his cattle). The gods Athena has to convince are just half of the Olympians, nothing more. Although, while thinking a bit more about this, I do have to agree that this could make a lot of sense considering that Jorge has not posted anything from the Athena vs Apollo argument nither has not confirmed which sun god it was.
@@bakugoufan1232 I meant the original story when I commented but for Epic, I totally agree with you Plus Apollo is just cooler so I hope there’s a switch up lol
I mean yes he's objectifying pride but they are also all metaphors. There is deeper meaning, and it's delivered in a way very fitting for Zeus with the way he views and treats women.
The objectifying bit is a minor part of that scene tbh. Sure, it's part of who Zeus is, and reflects perfectly how he sees his role. But the main part of all that is exactly how the captions introduce him. The fact Zeus is comparing Odysseus's pride to a women is nothing compared to how screwed what remains of the crew are.
I mean, it is a little bit beyond “Cheater Zeus” talk, I think. Zeus punishes men for hubris, he’s the ultimate judge in the conceptual sense, if we consider his importance as a deity to the ancient Greeks. Pride - hubris, impiety Eurylochus shows by slaying the cow, overstepping the limits of what a mortal can do - is very much within his domain of power, and it’s his divine right to treat it as such
I do appreciate that AnniFlamma animated Zeus as appearing younger than her Poseidon. Zeus is so commonly the big white beard guy that everyone forgets he's canonically the youngest brother of the original 6 Olympians.
Same for Samantha_aart's version, which is actually hot unlike usual depictions of Zeus in modern media, Unfortunately her full animatic of thunder bringer will use the old man version.
I mean its complicated, Zeus is the youngest, but when he releases his siblings he becomes the oldest and the rest becomes based on the order they're released from kronos' stomach
So the thing with "pride is a damsel" bit is that Zeus is humanizing the concept of pride as a woman and then saying *he* is the only one allowed to have unchecked pride by saying he's the only one allowed to defile and deflower her
He's also using that metaphor to talk about the way he's going to give Odysseus a hard choice that he can't hide from. "Try all she can not confess, in the end it's all the same once I apply all the pressure". Odysseus might not want to, but he's going to have to choose between him and his crew and show where his priorities lie.
@@navimcfarland9113 I think you underestimate someone simply being interested in mythology. Put enough time in it, and you may not have everything come to mind immediately, but it's all floating around somewhere.
One of my absolutely favorite bits of Thunderbringer is the fact that Zeus' name is never actually said. So far he's actually one of the only, if not THE only, god who's name was never said at all. All we hear when he's being introduced is thunder. But the thunder alone is more than enough for us to know exactly who is showing up regardless of the fact that we're not told a name. His presence is simply that powerful and meaningful.
The closest introduction we get is "And suffer a gruesome fate to the Thunder Bringer". But that really just feels like Zeus is showing off a little bit.
"Deep down I would trade the world to see my son and wife." He was being honest. Edit: When I made the connection with this line, I had not even connected Scylla's "Deep down" But wow! I love foreshadowing! So cool!
Here's a fun fact - according to Homer's Odyssey poem, Eurylochus of Same, i.e. Odysseus' second in command, isn't just a childhood buddy, he was Ody's brother in law by marriage to Odysseus' younger sister, Ctimene. Ody didn't just damn a friend and brother in arms - he did it to *family* twice over by widowing his sibling...
I love how Zeus doesn't sound angry. He sounds like a kindergarten teacher asking if you want a time out when he makes Odysseus choose. It's not like it was his cows after all.
I mean, canonically in the Odyssey, he is made to mete out punishment because Helios threatens to make the sun shine in the Underworld if Zeus doesn’t avenge his cow. He truly doesn’t care one way or the other which choice Odysseus makes; he’s just there to do his job as king of the gods!
I think a part of it is that he's talking to odysseus who is the innocent party there, like he knows its not odysseus's fault, but he's zeus so he's fine to fuck him over anyways
The one thing that's always stuck out to me for Mutiny part 2, is how IMMEDIATE the danger motif is. Usually unless there's already a fight happening, we have a second of silence or low beats, then the danger motif creeps in like a rolling fog. Here? He kills the cow and INSTANTLY there's a chorus going "Ya shouldn'ta did that."
Bad part about cutting Mutiny: I had to wait longer for my favorite part of it Good part about cutting Mutiny: We get the EPIC transition from Mutiny to Thunderbringer in one video I'll take the Good part lol
Something I have noticed. Post Monster Ody almost never uses "we" when talking about going home or the trials everyone have gone through, where as before monster he uses 'we' quite a bit. But now it's almost always 'I' when talking about struggles or making it home.
Scylla even calls that out. "Deep down, we only care for ourselves". I have a lot of thoughts on how that applies to both Odysseus and Eurylocus, but yeah. There's a lot of personal pronouns in the latter half of Mutiny.
And during Mutiny he starts "Please don't do this, *I* need to get home" and, because I want to believe the best of Ody, after he REALLY hears his crew he slips back to "Reconsider, *we* can get home"
Zeus is a lot of things. But fair is one I wasn’t expecting for Thunder Bringer. “Choose: 1) accept punishment for your failure as a king and captain Or 2) let the perpetrators die for their crime against the gods. By the way Odysseus, don’t forget what you’re going to lose with that decision. You’re up cloud Penelope!”
I mean he’s the god of law, order, and justice which he was bringing per helios’s request, the crew committed hubris by killing the sun gods cows and now someone must pay. Its an extreme punishment but hubris was the worst thing you could commit back then :P
@@JaneD0e_LuckyNxmbr7 he isn't the god of law that is the goddess Themis which she is the personification of justice, but goddess of law, custom, divine order. She is usually displayed with blindfold and sword& scale. Zeus is playing judge, jury and executioner. That doesn't really care about due process. As well, he also have bet to wager on in this games of the gods.
@@JaneD0e_LuckyNxmbr7 wait, nevermind zeus is also god of law and order huh. So their two deities for rough definition of the same thing. But one more open to his chastity.
Zeus is the king of having others chose between to evils. He enjoys it honestly. Horse and the Infant: Ody either killed the baby and live with the guilt and him that house haunt him for the rest of his life or risked the baby growing up and killing him when he was far too old to defend himself. ThunderBringer: either he sacrifices himself where he never gets home, where his wife and son would continue to suffer or he sacrifices his men and survives to then be trapped for another couple years on an island where he can’t escape. And Zeus KNEW what Ody would choose yet still gave him the ultimatum anyway? The AUDACITY.
@@forgotten13th37 yeah domains can overlap a bit like how Hera is the goddess of marriage but Apollo and Calliope’s son, Hymenaeus, is also the god of marriage but he centers more on ceremonies
I care deeply for all of my friends, but if the gods were real and one of them pissed off the gods so much that it'd either be my head or theirs, I'm not dying for their fuckup.
Something I feel like a lot of ppl gloss over abt Zeus' charactrerization is he's not just personifying Pride as a woman to show off how much he gets around, he's expressly doing it to *possess* her. There's a deep violence to the way Zeus, king of gods, pursues many of his trysts (such as Io, who he turned into a cattle to then hide from Hera) and it's being underlined here-- while he's not the only Olympian to chase and bed a fleeing woman, he's showing off that aspect as a boast. It's something only a king can get away with announcing-- Poseidon plays it chill and pretends he's laid-back until provoked, but Zeus tells you what he is and then dares you to do something about it. Just a bit of characterization that I really appreciate Jorge using, it makes him into a great heel for this moment and turns his ultimatum into something almost expected.
Similar boat, though would probably add that people tend to have this weird way of judging fictional characters, like they exist in modern society. You kind of lose the image of things without keeping in mind that pretty much everything is framed by Zeus. He's not just a king. That's Odysseus. He doesn't dare you to do anything. The possibility of going against him is a foolish afterthought, and his assuredness in himself is fully justified.
@@skycastrum5803 Oh, certainly-- one does have to remember that the gods were *representations* of their domains, so of course they often acted in violent and awful ways (see Persephone: of course Death steals away a young woman for itself, that's what death does all the time). It's just interesting to keep in mind since Jorge is retelling all of this to reflect a new, more contemporary story and theme-- reflecting on mercy and cruelty in old heroic myth-- and put in the allusion to Zeus' sexual violence in as an intentional move. Gotta look at them in both mindsets at once, old and new. Mostly I just find it wild how many people don't seem to connect the dots when reacting to Thunder Bringer and, say, seem to make it out to just be Zeus being suave or something. Even without knowing the myths, the phrasing gets pretty clearly coercive in those lines.
@@EmiStAmant Corrections: Hades is not the god of *death*, that would be Thanatos. Hades is simply the god of the *dead*. Big difference there. Also, it wasnt Hades that kidnapped Persephone, at least not in the version Ive heard. The one who took Persephone was fucking ZEUS, he delivered Persephone as a gift to Hades because Hades had a crush on her. After that, Persephone was able to leave the underworld for half the year, and from the interpretation I've heard, she does actually love Hades, so I dont think the comparison works here.
Funny thought but at the end of mutiny when Ody yells "Eurylochus NO!" it's not just because he doesn't want him killing the cows but also because he knows what those words can do to someone. He knows the pain and suffering the words "i'm just a man" can lead to. He doesn't want Eurylochus experiencing that same pain he has had to experience.
Something I find interesting is that Odyseuss and Eurylochus still call each other "friend" after the sacrifice/mutiny; it really shows that we picked up their journey late and they've experienced so much
Not many people talk about it, but the penelope part in thunder bringer might not be just be in Odysseus's mind. Since the gods can summon vocals whenever, what if Zeus just went "hey make this really hard choice, but im going to give you a "gentle" nudge into the other direction" just to spite him
I noticed how Zeus always knew Odysseus weakness from the beginning and knows how to best manipulate/sway ody into making a decision, because not only does he summon Penelope here but in The horse and the infant Zeus also implies that Odysseus can say goodbye to Penelope if he doesn’t kill the child. It feels so manipulative and, considering we’re talking about Zeus here, very fitting.
I doubt it would have as big a strong hold in the collective psyche of the media. There have been small films and remakes of the stories for centuries. Hercules and Xena were big in the 90s. Clash of the Titans was popular in 1980s
@@Sate12 Each remake that made it big has definitely effected the collective psyche, though? Percy Jackson also did a lot in getting people into the Greek/Roman mythos as a whole rather than one specific story. I'm sure Epic would have still been created and the musical would have continued to draw people in. But we stand on the shoulders of giants, part of what has made the enviornment just right for Epic was Hamilton bringing in a wider audience to musicals, Covid making piece-meal releases like this more acceptable, and the last two decades repopularizing greek mythology through Percy Jackson, Lore Olympus, and the Hades video game series.
I never read Percy Jackson, and when I saw the movies, I was even more unimpressed. The only reason I got interested in this was because Odysseus is one of my favorite heroes.
the part where eurylochus says, "Captain?" literally reminded me of the scene in star wars where anakin offs all the younglings for some reason absolutely heart shattering
So fun thing. Every time I hear Zeus say "king of Ithaca" I laugh because all I can see is like a sassy rolling of his eyes and little head shake as he says it if that makes any sense... But I get sassy boy energy from that 😂😂
@@purplebaggyboiNeal Illustrator' animatic has Zeus bowing for the "King of Ithica" part. While he is in HUGE among the clouds, further belittling Odysseus and the crew.
I’ve said it once, I’ll say it again, I can’t decide if Thunder Bringers lyrics imply Zeus is trying to threaten or seduce, and both prospects are terrifying.
@@SantosoWijaya i was more thinking of the golden shower one but yeah melting to death not fun nor was the Hercules and brother situation but its Zeus he is the biggest of the dicks
I really wish that in thunder bringer they brought back "the blood on your hands is something you won't lose, all you get to choose is whose" because it's a perfect fit for the song
At least Eurylochos is less of an idiot in this. In the Odyssey, Odysseus makes them swear an oath to not slaughter the cattle and to only eat the wine and bread that they have, and hunt any other animal. I kid you not the very next page after the oath ( Odysseus is exploring alone and has gone to sleep) Eurylochos goes “ brothers let’s go and kill Helios finest cattle”
@marii.trd_ I think it's even written somewhere that that island also has sheep, so they did have another choice, but Eury wanted beef, both in his stomach and against the sun
Bro finally realized that it was half of mutiny with the text being half gray and pink 😂😂😂❤❤❤. Though maybe it would be better this way with the part after this leading straight into thunder bringer.
our mutiny is finally over also the motif u mentioned might be the "survive" motif if they dont make a choice , they will die , so they make that choice too survive odysseus killing the infant the crew choosing too fight polyphemus eurylochus killing the cows for food
İkr i think rather than calling it a motif for Zeus its more likely a survive motif because Ody had to kill the infant in order to survive and save his family or they have to kill the Polyphemus in order to survive and Eury has to eat the cow or he will starve
With the Thunder Saga now over, Mr Jorge has finally told us what the first 4 lines the choir in "No Longer You" sing at the end. They are: Siren Song, Scylla Throat, Mutiny, Lightning Bolt He also said, he isn't going to reveal the rest just yet because it's "spoilers for other parts." THEY LITERALLY SING WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN IN THE REMAINDER OF THE MUSICAL!!
Knowing the kind of serial bed-visitor Zeus is, him likening the concept of pride to a woman he then describes himself assaulting seems in line with mythology 😭Of course there are probably other interpretations too, he's calling the crew and Odysseus prideful and straight up tells them he's come to crush them in as cruel a way he can possibly manage, but what a metaphor to use D:
So glad that Mortius realized the infant and cyclops motif at the same time I did. I was thinking what lyrics it was referencing, only for me to suddenly realizing the line I was saying was me combining lines from 2 completely separate songs, and only noticed that they all shared a melody when I asked "Wait how is that possible"
The relationship between Eury and Ody has possibly become my favorite part of EPIC so far, their fight ofc but the fact that Eury not only spared him, but called him friend/Ody after and had no energy left to be angry. He just sounded so done with fighting to survive and didn’t wanna starve which was tragic. Which is why my headcannon alongside the animatics that do do is everyone attacking but Eury who sounds so dejected by the end
In my opinion in the beginning Zeus is comparing Oddyeus’s pride to the women he seduces into committing adultery. As in- “your pride is my bitch. And I’ll throw it away like trash.” as well as him basically making an entrance by singing his own theme song.
Oh! Before I forget, the sun god they are talking about is in fact not Apollo but Helios, whose cattle are also called the Oxen of the Sun and are kept on the island of Thrinacia in mythology
If you want any recommendations for the next Musical Mondays, I recommend My Heart Says Go. It's written by Odysseus himself, Jorge Rivera Herrans, about a guy who drops out of med school to pursue a music career. It's also (at least slightly) autobiographical, seeing as Jorge wrote it after dropping out of med school himself to pursue a career in music.
One of my favorite touches in this part of Mutiny is during the overlapping vocals. When it’s just Eurylochus and Odysseus at the same time, Ody’s line is “I need to get home”, and he’s still doing that breathy, vulnerable falsetto you picked up on. But when the crew joins in chorus with Eury, Odysseus puts his vocal “mask” back up, and his line is “WE can get home”. It really drives home the point Eurylochus was trying to make in the first half of the song: Odysseus is so desperate to get home that, for a moment, he forgot about the men under his command.
Fun fact:Half of Odysseus' problems would be solved if his crew knew how to fucking fish Edit:To specify. If they knew how to fish,they wouldn't need to land on polyphemus' island. If they didnt land there,they would not have had to harm him. If they didn't harm him,POSEIDON wouldn't be pissed off at them etc. They wouldnt have ended up at circe's which would have saved em from going to the underworld and then going to scylla and then literally everyone else dying. This is speaking musical wise of course. It is more complicated in the original
Something I love about Zeus personifying pride as a woman. He’s saying all men seek and desire pride, but only Zeus is entitled to it. Really fits Zeus’ character
Mortius have you ever considered listening to Jorge's earlier musical 'my heart says go'? I waggled me ears at it yesterday and it is really very good; I think you would enjoy it a lot, and it really deserves more recognition. As always, looking forward to another reaction from my go-to reactor!
I JUST realized that the tune from Survive is also Zeus's part in Horse and the Infant A vision-- of what is to come-- cannot be outrun-- can only be dealt with right here and now-- My brothers-- the rest of our fleet-- they wait at the beach-- And if we're defeated they're good as dead-- But now it makes so much sense, seeing not only that Zeus is about to come back AND they're about to repeat same events that triggered Survive.
Now that you've seen Thunder Bringer, I can say this: Polyphemus' still technically keeps his end of the deal "You shall be the final man to die" Well, the rest of who was in the crew died in Thunder Bringer, so his promise holds up. Now, no matter if he lives or dies, he's the final one to die, either by old age or by god.
My favorite(?) thing about the end of Mutiny is the fact that Odysseus completely gives up on hiding his intentions. He is so vulnerable and weak from his wounds that he loses all pretense and says “I need to get home” instead of “we need to get home.” That’s just how I view it though. You could argue that since Eurylochus has basically said they’re never getting home that Odysseus has given up trying to represent the desire to get home as a collective want.
32:11 FINALLY!! Glad someone notice that before me! I noticed that the Opening Main Menu for EPIC sounds like the piano melody of "Hopes and Dreams" from Undertale.
-iny, and of course Thunder Bringer! I absolutely love your content, I first saw you in your reaction to The Dragonborn Comes, and as A Fellow Nerd I was immediately hooked! As time went on and I saw your consistent ability to vocalize *why* I like certain music, I got more and more into your content, and now with your pivot into musicals (Epic, Six, Hamilton, and beyond), I'm fully re-entering my shameless, music(al)-loving self that has taken more of a backseat in recent years. That is to say, thank you for giving me a space to reconnect with my inner child and feel safe to be me. I really appreciate everything you do, and while I'm not in a position to be a part of the Patreon right now, once I am, yours will be the first! In any case, thank you for all you do, not just for me, but for everyone in this little found family you've made. I'm so happy for all your successes, and can't wait for what the future holds, here, with OAR (go subscribe if you're Not Mortius And Made It This Far), and everything else to come! Well now I guess there's nothing else to say except, Gals, Blokes, and All Other Folks 😉👉👆 I'll see you in the next video 😁👋
So a few notes on character motivations: Eurylochus is often accused of plain stupidity, but I think thats a disservice to the character. By Scylla, he's seen that his friend and leader values his and the crew's lives less than his own. By Mutiny, he's giving into despair and suicidality. He's not stupid, he's depressed. Zeus is using the figure of a young woman, a damsel, as someone he has the right to violate. So he's saying, as king, he has the power to violate and ruin prideful people in the same way that he assault and rapes women. It's such a good, concise summary of his character. Hes such a despicable villain that our protags have no hope to fight
It's interesting how in Mutiny we get a parallel to previous Odysseus songs - Horse and the Infant, Just a Man, Luck Runs Out, Storm, and then Thunderbringer is basically Eurylochus's Ruthlessness!
I am so happy I was not the only clueless person who discovered that Zeus' part in the Horse and the Infant is the same as Survive because of the end part of Mutiny there. I thought I was just stupid when I suddenly realized. 😂 Thank you so much for these reactions, Mortius! I always end up enjoying the songs more after watching you react to them.
24:14 Jorge mentioned somewhere that he is showing how far Odysseus is below Zues in Zues's opinion that Zues shows up on Odysseus's ship and doesn't even address Odysseus until the 2nd verse. Ita a power play!
One thing some people have noticed, is that in Just a Man when he sings ‘When does a man become a monster’ for the first time, the mutiny instrumental plays quietly in the background. It’s answering the question. ‘When does a man become a monster’? It’s when others view you as such.
I love how despite Odysseus's determination to make it back to his son and wife, right after killing off his crew, his brother, to save himself, even the thoughts of those he holds dear cannot compel him to try to swim towards the surface. He'd thrown himself away and become the monster to protect them, not just himself, and now he was, thanks to his own actions, surrounded by the corpses of the rest of his friends. And he didn't swim up. He didn't look for a piece of the ship to cling to until he reached land or found aid. He didn't take hold of the chance he'd given himself because now that his fear has passed, the cost is too great.
the way zeus isn't even singing about what is happening and the current events and just talks about himself, just shows how narcissistic he is and the fact that he refers to pride, and other stuff as a woman and describing about controlling her is also another way of showing just how much of a horndog he is
Odysseus is gonna have a lot of explaining to do to his sister. "Your husband stood up to me after I tricked him into unwittingly condemning six men to death, I took issue with that, got stabbed, then we ended up on an island, your husband was starving and not able to think rationally because of the hunger, and when the sun god sent Zeus to confront us, he gave me the choice of sacrificing myself or the entire crew, and to make a long story short, you're a widow."
Eury mutinies and takes charge of the crew for real, after which we see him go on the same musical (themes) journey Ody did. He makes all the decisions based on whats best for the crew and in contrast with Ody he fails, leading all of the men to their death. "If you want all the power, you must carry all the blame".
The animators when Jorge makes them animate the most gut wretching angst (they are also fans of epic after all): PLEASE DONT MAKE ME DO THIS, DONT MAKE ME DO THIS
They recorded a video promoting "Thunderbringer" at Steven Dookies (Polites) wedding, and it's so good. They all look great, but Luke in a tuxedo while wearing his lightning bolt necklace is such a great look.
Something I like that I think Jorge mentioned about the BTS for Thunderbringer is that Zeus is so full of himself he doesn't even acknowledge Odysseus and his crew until the second verse XD
19:12 I love how as soon as he realises he's cut Mutiny in half, his first reaction is saying that the comment section is going to cruify him, which, in retrospect, _they did_ lol
When Ody says “please don’t do this,” you interpreted it as a sign that he still cares about his friend, but in fact I think it’s the opposite. His next line is “I need to get home,” showing that, after everything they’ve been through, he still only cares about himself, and his family. I think this is one of the most damning moments for Odysseus, in terms of his moral character.
Yeah, he knows it'll get them in trouble, an analogy I saw was basically a kid getting a group into trouble and one of them turning on the rest to avoid punishment
9:44 I think mean both. That part of the song survive is about doing anything to well survive and not let the cyclop kill you. In the same way killing the cows and eating them is a way of keeping surviving and continuing existing. In horse and the infint however the lines that Zeus has talks for that specific melody is about the future (the vision) that is to come and can not be stopped from happening. However in this case the melody have a double meaning, or at lest I see it this way, being not only about that vision zeus mention but also send us back to "No longer you" when the profet also is presenting the future to ody. If my mythology knowledge is not wrong the profet tell ody how his man will kill the cows and this is hidden in theblines "I see portraits and betrayals and a brother final stand". That line was not only about Eury and Ody fighting in the first half of Muttany but also about Eury's betrayals (explaining why in Sylla the animatic showcase Ody cold and untouched by Eury's confession) and alsp eury's final stand representing his decision of whether or not to kill the cows. Am I delulu for thinking so dip, probably but I love hiperanalysing stuff :D
I dont think im the only one but notice how that melody at the end of thunder bringer sounds much like the end of my goodbye when athena says the "One day, you'll hear what I'm saying One day, you might understand" welll, maybe this is that day
“The blood on your hands is something you won’t lose; *_all you can choose is whose.”_*
Honestly I wish that line was in Thunderbringer, it would have been PERFECT
@@Cataly_ely I think this works; in the Troy Saga Zeus was almost comforting him with the line. Here he couldn't care less. Plus it's on us to remember, which drives it home harder.
It's almost like it is: the big emphasis on "CHOOSE" and "someone's gonna die today and you have got the final say" it's basically the same thing as the dilemma in The Horse and The Infant - as Odysseus singing "please don''t make me do this" & the reprise of the chorus of Just a Man reinforce.
they are also quite literally a reverse of each other as ody chose who died in the first song of the first saga of the first half and the last song of (technically) also the first saga of the last half
WHAT TBE FYC
The reason for having Zeus make all those comparisons is because he is both a god of judgement and also a MASSIVE creep
Yea I mean its accurate considering how horny he is
And there's practically NO ONE in Greek Mythology that can check him. Face it, Zeus isn't called the Strongest of the Olympians for nothing.
@@oceanberserker Nyx can, she did it when protecting her son Hypnos from him (because he put him to sleep).
But that's the only time she cared to do it.
@@RWQFSFASXC8 Why do you think I said Strongest of the OLYMPIANS?
@@oceanberserkeridk if it’s “no one can check him” i feel it’s more “the ppl who have an actual chance at doing so never care enough to actually do so”. His brothers for example, Poseidon and Hades have been said to rival him in strength even if not stronger they’re pretty much close enough, but Hades wants nothing to do with Olympus usually and Poseidon doesn’t rlly care to be the king of all the gods, nor does he usually find fault in Zeus’ dealings anyway
Eurylochus, the Odyssey:
"Every form of death is vile to us wretched mortals, but the most wretched way to die is by starvation. So, let us cut out the finest of Helios’ cattle, and sacrifice to the gods of the wide heavens. And if we return to Ithaca, our own land, let us build a fine temple to Helios Hyperion, and fill it with precious gifts. And if he is angered at the loss of his long-horned kine and chooses to wreck our ship, the other gods’ agreeing, well for myself I would rather die quickly in the waves, than waste away slowly on a desert island."
Even in the original, Eurylochus really sounds like he had just kinda given up at this point
Yeaaa Eurylochus in Mutiny made me feel all sorts of wrong with how absolutely hopeless he sounds, pretty much suicidal ideation at that point :(
@@christabeldjauhari2271 Well, seeing how captain you relied on to lead you home is ready to sacrifice you, i wouldn't have much hope left either
It's not in the musical but by this point Eurylochus and crew were on the island for a month, starving to death, trapped by Poseidon's storm, just staring at the cattle everyday. Eurylochus just went "Fuck it, let's do this".
I will once more state that most of his fucking problems would be solved if he brought a fisherman with him
@@Slash_to_your_heart I'm not too sure if Poseidon would have let them stay still long enough to fish let alone get any fish but hey doesn't hurt to try
Anyone else notice how during Thunder Bringer it is one of the first times the crew doesn't call out to Odysseus when they're about to die/in danger. Because for the first time during their travels they know that he wont save them. Even during Mutiny, when they leave the island, they turn to Odysseus for guidance, despite claiming not to trust him anymore. But this time, where it's their captain himself that dooms them, not a single person, not even Eurylochus calls for him to aide them. Odysseus has put himself(Penelope) first and the crew knows there's nothing to do about it, and instead accept he wont save them, and therefore attack him.
Just a fun thing I noticed :)
YOU STOP
i have 0 love for the crew of the odyssey
Every fun indeed 🙂😂😭😭😭😭
Very well said. I like how you mentioned he puts Penelope first, not even his own life. I have a lot to say on that, actually, but I have absolutely no patience writing it all in a little comment section and you probably won't have patience reading all of it lol
@@m1sh474 Hey man, ik its a story but realistically speaking if the man whom you entrust your lives to has chosen tht the cost doesnt matter, fear runs in, especially since after all theyve been through Odysseus is their last hope and tht hope has now become your doom. YOU FIGHT FOR YOUR SURVIVAL
Some fun facts:
- In the Odyssey, Circe is the one that tells Odysseus to steer close to Scylla because it’s either her or Charybis, but the latter would kill more men
- The cattle belongs to Helios, the god of the sun, who is also CIRCE’S DAD
It’s funny how even after they left Circe’s island, she’s still very important to the story
While you are probably correct (I'm not saying your wrong) I think for epic even though helios is the sun god at the time of the odyssey, I think for epic the sun god is going to be apollo because in god games when Zeus tells athena who of the gods she has to convince to let ody go, one of them is Apollo and helios doesn't pop up in the song any way so far.
Not to mention, Circe is the one who turned scylla into a monster
@@bakugoufan1232Apollo has major beef with the Greeks. They defiled him and his priestess, and they sacked Troy. Apollo is Troy’s patron deity.
@@bakugoufan1232I think that's just because Helios got his "apology" in this song (the apology / justice being that Zeus killed the people who disrespected and killed his cattle). The gods Athena has to convince are just half of the Olympians, nothing more.
Although, while thinking a bit more about this, I do have to agree that this could make a lot of sense considering that Jorge has not posted anything from the Athena vs Apollo argument nither has not confirmed which sun god it was.
@@bakugoufan1232 I meant the original story when I commented but for Epic, I totally agree with you
Plus Apollo is just cooler so I hope there’s a switch up lol
That melody that plays at the end of Thunderbringer is called “Telemachus’s Lullaby” if you weren’t hurting enough
Woah that's really cool! How did you did you find this out?
@@seohyeonchoi2150sneak previews from Jorge’s socials
Oh that's interesting! Doesn't the same melody play at the end of My Goodbye?
@@seohyeonchoi2150 Jorge said it himself in discord a while back
HEY! >:0
26:14 Mortious is such a genuinely nice guy that he doesn't catch Mr. Cheater Zeus himself is just straight objectifying pride like he would a woman
It's totally on par for Zeus, to be honest.
The lore is correct!!
I mean yes he's objectifying pride but they are also all metaphors. There is deeper meaning, and it's delivered in a way very fitting for Zeus with the way he views and treats women.
The objectifying bit is a minor part of that scene tbh. Sure, it's part of who Zeus is, and reflects perfectly how he sees his role. But the main part of all that is exactly how the captions introduce him. The fact Zeus is comparing Odysseus's pride to a women is nothing compared to how screwed what remains of the crew are.
I mean, it is a little bit beyond “Cheater Zeus” talk, I think. Zeus punishes men for hubris, he’s the ultimate judge in the conceptual sense, if we consider his importance as a deity to the ancient Greeks. Pride - hubris, impiety Eurylochus shows by slaying the cow, overstepping the limits of what a mortal can do - is very much within his domain of power, and it’s his divine right to treat it as such
Mortious: ANNI NO! PLEASE NO!
Jorge: ANNI YES! PLEASE YES!
I was right their immediately panicking lol
My heart has been obliterated.
@@joesplace2960 yeah, as soon as I spotted anni I had a sinking feeling, I was right that hurt!
I do appreciate that AnniFlamma animated Zeus as appearing younger than her Poseidon. Zeus is so commonly the big white beard guy that everyone forgets he's canonically the youngest brother of the original 6 Olympians.
Anni has said thats Jorge’s design for Zeus
In the Iliad he has brown hair too. So he’s probably around 40’s I think.
Same for Samantha_aart's version, which is actually hot unlike usual depictions of Zeus in modern media, Unfortunately her full animatic of thunder bringer will use the old man version.
I mean its complicated, Zeus is the youngest, but when he releases his siblings he becomes the oldest and the rest becomes based on the order they're released from kronos' stomach
Plus the white beard looks like clouds too so it has become iconic for that reason too
So the thing with "pride is a damsel" bit is that Zeus is humanizing the concept of pride as a woman and then saying *he* is the only one allowed to have unchecked pride by saying he's the only one allowed to defile and deflower her
He's also using that metaphor to talk about the way he's going to give Odysseus a hard choice that he can't hide from. "Try all she can not confess, in the end it's all the same once I apply all the pressure".
Odysseus might not want to, but he's going to have to choose between him and his crew and show where his priorities lie.
Sometimes only tragic events or extreme situations can break the pride of someone. Even a King
Fun fact there is actually a goddess of pride in Greek mythology called hybris so at least pride is a damsel
@@miles820 I wanna know Jalapeño's search history because there is no way he knows all of this on the fly
@@navimcfarland9113 I think you underestimate someone simply being interested in mythology. Put enough time in it, and you may not have everything come to mind immediately, but it's all floating around somewhere.
The “anni leave me alone😭”was too real right before we know what is to come
One of my absolutely favorite bits of Thunderbringer is the fact that Zeus' name is never actually said. So far he's actually one of the only, if not THE only, god who's name was never said at all. All we hear when he's being introduced is thunder. But the thunder alone is more than enough for us to know exactly who is showing up regardless of the fact that we're not told a name. His presence is simply that powerful and meaningful.
The closest introduction we get is "And suffer a gruesome fate to the Thunder Bringer". But that really just feels like Zeus is showing off a little bit.
"Deep down I would trade the world to see my son and wife."
He was being honest.
Edit: When I made the connection with this line, I had not even connected Scylla's "Deep down" But wow! I love foreshadowing! So cool!
Yeah, “Deep down...”
Scylla's "Deep down..." really pulled Ody's heart strings to bring that back lol
Fuuuuuudge I didn't even connect the dang Deep Down parallel.
That is... genius.
she’s literally saying in the song “deep down we both would do THIS” “i know you because deep down we both know THIS”
All of us: He cut out half of mutiny 👁️👄👁️
Mortius: I’m just a man ✋🏻😫
Here's a fun fact - according to Homer's Odyssey poem, Eurylochus of Same, i.e. Odysseus' second in command, isn't just a childhood buddy, he was Ody's brother in law by marriage to Odysseus' younger sister, Ctimene. Ody didn't just damn a friend and brother in arms - he did it to *family* twice over by widowing his sibling...
Jesus Christ that’s dark 😭
I love how Zeus doesn't sound angry. He sounds like a kindergarten teacher asking if you want a time out when he makes Odysseus choose.
It's not like it was his cows after all.
I think he sounds like he's enjoying the sadistic choice. He's not being kind.
I mean, canonically in the Odyssey, he is made to mete out punishment because Helios threatens to make the sun shine in the Underworld if Zeus doesn’t avenge his cow. He truly doesn’t care one way or the other which choice Odysseus makes; he’s just there to do his job as king of the gods!
@marthafein1149 I didn't mean he was being kind more implying he is talking to a child
I think a part of it is that he's talking to odysseus who is the innocent party there, like he knows its not odysseus's fault, but he's zeus so he's fine to fuck him over anyways
I love how you do the half of mutiny in the thumbnail by coloring part of the word
I noticed that with the other video! And the highlight is flipped now!
Thx for pointing this out to me.
I love how one of his main worries wasn’t that he just cut a song in half, but what would he do with the title and thumbnail 😂😂😂
I thought it was an error in the thumbnail last time, but now it makes sense
Yeah it's so silly lol
The one thing that's always stuck out to me for Mutiny part 2, is how IMMEDIATE the danger motif is. Usually unless there's already a fight happening, we have a second of silence or low beats, then the danger motif creeps in like a rolling fog. Here? He kills the cow and INSTANTLY there's a chorus going "Ya shouldn'ta did that."
Bad part about cutting Mutiny: I had to wait longer for my favorite part of it
Good part about cutting Mutiny: We get the EPIC transition from Mutiny to Thunderbringer in one video
I'll take the Good part lol
Something I have noticed. Post Monster Ody almost never uses "we" when talking about going home or the trials everyone have gone through, where as before monster he uses 'we' quite a bit. But now it's almost always 'I' when talking about struggles or making it home.
Yup. He is a different beast now, indeed.
Scylla even calls that out. "Deep down, we only care for ourselves". I have a lot of thoughts on how that applies to both Odysseus and Eurylocus, but yeah. There's a lot of personal pronouns in the latter half of Mutiny.
And during Mutiny he starts "Please don't do this, *I* need to get home" and, because I want to believe the best of Ody, after he REALLY hears his crew he slips back to "Reconsider, *we* can get home"
Zeus is a lot of things. But fair is one I wasn’t expecting for Thunder Bringer.
“Choose:
1) accept punishment for your failure as a king and captain
Or
2) let the perpetrators die for their crime against the gods.
By the way Odysseus, don’t forget what you’re going to lose with that decision. You’re up cloud Penelope!”
I mean he’s the god of law, order, and justice which he was bringing per helios’s request, the crew committed hubris by killing the sun gods cows and now someone must pay. Its an extreme punishment but hubris was the worst thing you could commit back then :P
@@JaneD0e_LuckyNxmbr7 he isn't the god of law that is the goddess Themis which she is the personification of justice, but goddess of law, custom, divine order. She is usually displayed with blindfold and sword& scale.
Zeus is playing judge, jury and executioner. That doesn't really care about due process.
As well, he also have bet to wager on in this games of the gods.
@@JaneD0e_LuckyNxmbr7 wait, nevermind zeus is also god of law and order huh. So their two deities for rough definition of the same thing. But one more open to his chastity.
Zeus is the king of having others chose between to evils. He enjoys it honestly.
Horse and the Infant: Ody either killed the baby and live with the guilt and him that house haunt him for the rest of his life or risked the baby growing up and killing him when he was far too old to defend himself.
ThunderBringer: either he sacrifices himself where he never gets home, where his wife and son would continue to suffer or he sacrifices his men and survives to then be trapped for another couple years on an island where he can’t escape.
And Zeus KNEW what Ody would choose yet still gave him the ultimatum anyway? The AUDACITY.
@@forgotten13th37 yeah domains can overlap a bit like how Hera is the goddess of marriage but Apollo and Calliope’s son, Hymenaeus, is also the god of marriage but he centers more on ceremonies
14:40 "he still cares so much for his friend"
....Thunderbringer just looming waiting to ruin the day
I mean. The fact that he wasn't willing to die for their crime doesn't change the fact that he cared.
I care deeply for all of my friends, but if the gods were real and one of them pissed off the gods so much that it'd either be my head or theirs, I'm not dying for their fuckup.
@@SilimSavertinso true
@@SilimSavertinIma say WOMP WOMP
Something I feel like a lot of ppl gloss over abt Zeus' charactrerization is he's not just personifying Pride as a woman to show off how much he gets around, he's expressly doing it to *possess* her. There's a deep violence to the way Zeus, king of gods, pursues many of his trysts (such as Io, who he turned into a cattle to then hide from Hera) and it's being underlined here-- while he's not the only Olympian to chase and bed a fleeing woman, he's showing off that aspect as a boast. It's something only a king can get away with announcing-- Poseidon plays it chill and pretends he's laid-back until provoked, but Zeus tells you what he is and then dares you to do something about it. Just a bit of characterization that I really appreciate Jorge using, it makes him into a great heel for this moment and turns his ultimatum into something almost expected.
Also doesn't hurt that pride is a female god in the greek mythos. So add that to the characterization and well... you get zeus.
Similar boat, though would probably add that people tend to have this weird way of judging fictional characters, like they exist in modern society. You kind of lose the image of things without keeping in mind that pretty much everything is framed by Zeus. He's not just a king. That's Odysseus. He doesn't dare you to do anything. The possibility of going against him is a foolish afterthought, and his assuredness in himself is fully justified.
@@skycastrum5803 Oh, certainly-- one does have to remember that the gods were *representations* of their domains, so of course they often acted in violent and awful ways (see Persephone: of course Death steals away a young woman for itself, that's what death does all the time). It's just interesting to keep in mind since Jorge is retelling all of this to reflect a new, more contemporary story and theme-- reflecting on mercy and cruelty in old heroic myth-- and put in the allusion to Zeus' sexual violence in as an intentional move. Gotta look at them in both mindsets at once, old and new.
Mostly I just find it wild how many people don't seem to connect the dots when reacting to Thunder Bringer and, say, seem to make it out to just be Zeus being suave or something. Even without knowing the myths, the phrasing gets pretty clearly coercive in those lines.
@@EmiStAmant Corrections: Hades is not the god of *death*, that would be Thanatos. Hades is simply the god of the *dead*. Big difference there. Also, it wasnt Hades that kidnapped Persephone, at least not in the version Ive heard. The one who took Persephone was fucking ZEUS, he delivered Persephone as a gift to Hades because Hades had a crush on her. After that, Persephone was able to leave the underworld for half the year, and from the interpretation I've heard, she does actually love Hades, so I dont think the comparison works here.
Funny thought but at the end of mutiny when Ody yells "Eurylochus NO!" it's not just because he doesn't want him killing the cows but also because he knows what those words can do to someone. He knows the pain and suffering the words "i'm just a man" can lead to. He doesn't want Eurylochus experiencing that same pain he has had to experience.
It's a good point, it is! But- HOW is that funny- 😭😭
This reaction is everything. When Ody started singing "please don't tell me you're about to do what I'll think you'll do?" My jaw dropped.
Something I find interesting is that Odyseuss and Eurylochus still call each other "friend" after the sacrifice/mutiny; it really shows that we picked up their journey late and they've experienced so much
They are also brothers in law since in the original Odyssey, Eury is married is Ody’s sister.
Everyone watching the thunder saga: absolutely crying their eyes out 😭
Jorge: smiling knowing that everyone watching is crying their eyes out 😊
Not many people talk about it, but the penelope part in thunder bringer might not be just be in Odysseus's mind. Since the gods can summon vocals whenever, what if Zeus just went "hey make this really hard choice, but im going to give you a "gentle" nudge into the other direction" just to spite him
Neil Illustrator's animatic for Thunder Bringer shows this really well
I noticed how Zeus always knew Odysseus weakness from the beginning and knows how to best manipulate/sway ody into making a decision, because not only does he summon Penelope here but in The horse and the infant Zeus also implies that Odysseus can say goodbye to Penelope if he doesn’t kill the child. It feels so manipulative and, considering we’re talking about Zeus here, very fitting.
With so much art now being made out of mythology, I wonder how different this batch of media would be if Rick Riordan had never written Percy Jackson
so true
I doubt it would have as big a strong hold in the collective psyche of the media. There have been small films and remakes of the stories for centuries. Hercules and Xena were big in the 90s. Clash of the Titans was popular in 1980s
@@Sate12 Each remake that made it big has definitely effected the collective psyche, though? Percy Jackson also did a lot in getting people into the Greek/Roman mythos as a whole rather than one specific story.
I'm sure Epic would have still been created and the musical would have continued to draw people in.
But we stand on the shoulders of giants, part of what has made the enviornment just right for Epic was Hamilton bringing in a wider audience to musicals, Covid making piece-meal releases like this more acceptable, and the last two decades repopularizing greek mythology through Percy Jackson, Lore Olympus, and the Hades video game series.
I never read Percy Jackson, and when I saw the movies, I was even more unimpressed. The only reason I got interested in this was because Odysseus is one of my favorite heroes.
@@justinrivera1618 what movies are you talking about? there's only one season of the series /j
the part where eurylochus says, "Captain?" literally reminded me of the scene in star wars where anakin offs all the younglings for some reason absolutely heart shattering
I love that Mutiny in the title is part gray and part pink. Also that you finally reacted to the best part of Mutiny
Am... An i the only one who likes first part more? Cause... Like... Actual mutiny?
@@danylonazarov The whole song is good that's why it's my favorite
@@danylonazarovI loved part 1 so much, I’d been waiting ever since the snippet, it was so badass
@@danylonazarov you could say the crew also mutinied against the sun god by killing his cows
Mortius after accidentally cutting mutiny in halif: IM JUST A MANNN FORGIVEE MEEE FORGIVEEE MEEEE IM JUST A man…..
So fun thing. Every time I hear Zeus say "king of Ithaca" I laugh because all I can see is like a sassy rolling of his eyes and little head shake as he says it if that makes any sense... But I get sassy boy energy from that 😂😂
HAHA
A while ago I was compiling a list of every insult said to Odysseus in EPIC, and I decided to count “King of Ithaca (derogatory)” as one of them
Either he rolls his eyes or mockingly 'bows' to Odysseus before his all "Choose." since it does sound like a command than a request
@@purplebaggyboiNeal Illustrator' animatic has Zeus bowing for the "King of Ithica" part. While he is in HUGE among the clouds, further belittling Odysseus and the crew.
Luke as Zeus has a choke hold on all of us huh?😭 Not to mention the animatics😳 (which may I add,are INSANE)
SAME BRO WHYD THEY MAKE ZUES HOT 😂
Yes
he quite literally sounds like markiplier which creeps me out 😭😭😭
@@jacerush-so9zlThis made me laugh a lot. Thank you.
I’ve said it once, I’ll say it again, I can’t decide if Thunder Bringers lyrics imply Zeus is trying to threaten or seduce, and both prospects are terrifying.
Let's be real, it's Zeus he's doing both.
why not both he does terrible things to the women he sleeps with
@@sairen2588literally one of them demanded to see him in his full glory and got melted to death Indiana Jones style
@@SantosoWijaya i was more thinking of the golden shower one but yeah melting to death not fun nor was the Hercules and brother situation but its Zeus he is the biggest of the dicks
Zeus: "There's a difference?"
Fun fact, the ending melody is called "Telemuchus's lullaby" 😭
😭😭
I really wish that in thunder bringer they brought back "the blood on your hands is something you won't lose, all you get to choose is whose" because it's a perfect fit for the song
The call back to the horse and the infant with the line @please don’t make me do this” is amazing
Gotta love how Mortius is trying so hard to connect Appollo to this when it's actually Helios' cows. better than Sunny Hades tho, I guess.
Plot Twist: Every god is actually Hades. Athena is Wise Hades, Poseidon is Wet Hades, Zeus is Electric Hades, Helios is Sunny Hades, etc.
And all the creatures are Poseidon, we have Pocyclops, Posiren, Poscylla
@@awildnoviceappears Apollo shall be Sunshine Hades, to make the distinction.
@@anastasija6866 Noooo, all the monsters are ALSO Eurylochus!
@@awildnoviceappearsyes. Hades is life. Everything is hades
At least Eurylochos is less of an idiot in this. In the Odyssey, Odysseus makes them swear an oath to not slaughter the cattle and to only eat the wine and bread that they have, and hunt any other animal. I kid you not the very next page after the oath ( Odysseus is exploring alone and has gone to sleep) Eurylochos goes “ brothers let’s go and kill Helios finest cattle”
Odysseuses crew are worse than toddlers
he literally said "hunt the other, just not the cows" and eury answered with " F U, i want steak and burgers!! >:("
@@marii.trd_Lmao
@marii.trd_ I think it's even written somewhere that that island also has sheep, so they did have another choice, but Eury wanted beef, both in his stomach and against the sun
@@anastasija6866 they do, like- they have the food given by Circe and other animals they could hunt but nooo eury specifically wanted steak
Bro finally realized that it was half of mutiny with the text being half gray and pink 😂😂😂❤❤❤. Though maybe it would be better this way with the part after this leading straight into thunder bringer.
our mutiny is finally over
also the motif u mentioned might be the "survive" motif
if they dont make a choice , they will die , so they make that choice too survive
odysseus killing the infant
the crew choosing too fight polyphemus
eurylochus killing the cows for food
İkr i think rather than calling it a motif for Zeus its more likely a survive motif because Ody had to kill the infant in order to survive and save his family or they have to kill the Polyphemus in order to survive and Eury has to eat the cow or he will starve
İ just realized i kinda repeated your words lmao sorry i just wanted to say İ agree with ya
@@kabartmatozu3791 its ok lol
Its crazy cause i can see that but i also see it as a foreshadowing to zeus and ody realizes what will happen if the kill the cattle
With the Thunder Saga now over, Mr Jorge has finally told us what the first 4 lines the choir in "No Longer You" sing at the end. They are: Siren Song, Scylla Throat, Mutiny, Lightning Bolt
He also said, he isn't going to reveal the rest just yet because it's "spoilers for other parts." THEY LITERALLY SING WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN IN THE REMAINDER OF THE MUSICAL!!
Knowing the kind of serial bed-visitor Zeus is, him likening the concept of pride to a woman he then describes himself assaulting seems in line with mythology 😭Of course there are probably other interpretations too, he's calling the crew and Odysseus prideful and straight up tells them he's come to crush them in as cruel a way he can possibly manage, but what a metaphor to use D:
omg I can't wait for him to finally react to iny
So glad that Mortius realized the infant and cyclops motif at the same time I did. I was thinking what lyrics it was referencing, only for me to suddenly realizing the line I was saying was me combining lines from 2 completely separate songs, and only noticed that they all shared a melody when I asked "Wait how is that possible"
The relationship between Eury and Ody has possibly become my favorite part of EPIC so far, their fight ofc but the fact that Eury not only spared him, but called him friend/Ody after and had no energy left to be angry. He just sounded so done with fighting to survive and didn’t wanna starve which was tragic. Which is why my headcannon alongside the animatics that do do is everyone attacking but Eury who sounds so dejected by the end
In my opinion in the beginning Zeus is comparing Oddyeus’s pride to the women he seduces into committing adultery. As in- “your pride is my bitch. And I’ll throw it away like trash.” as well as him basically making an entrance by singing his own theme song.
*realizes he cut Mutiny in half*
Ehh, simple mistake. You’re ‘just a man’ after all. 😜
"MORTIUS, NO!"
...
"You've doomed us... YOU'VE DOOMED US ALL, MORTIUS!"
"...captain?"
I love how golden the lightning looks against the darkness in that last animatic
Oh! Before I forget, the sun god they are talking about is in fact not Apollo but Helios, whose cattle are also called the Oxen of the Sun and are kept on the island of Thrinacia in mythology
Also Tiresias fully tells Odysseus in the Odyssey that they can make it home if they don’t kill the cows, and Eurylochus still fully kills the cows
@@smolsiren i mean yeah but that's because they'd been stuck on the island for a month with literally nothing to eat. he wasn't just being an idiot
@@lellenny true
And weren't the daughters of Helios also on the island, tending to the animals
If you want any recommendations for the next Musical Mondays, I recommend My Heart Says Go. It's written by Odysseus himself, Jorge Rivera Herrans, about a guy who drops out of med school to pursue a music career. It's also (at least slightly) autobiographical, seeing as Jorge wrote it after dropping out of med school himself to pursue a career in music.
One of my favorite touches in this part of Mutiny is during the overlapping vocals. When it’s just Eurylochus and Odysseus at the same time, Ody’s line is “I need to get home”, and he’s still doing that breathy, vulnerable falsetto you picked up on. But when the crew joins in chorus with Eury, Odysseus puts his vocal “mask” back up, and his line is “WE can get home”. It really drives home the point Eurylochus was trying to make in the first half of the song: Odysseus is so desperate to get home that, for a moment, he forgot about the men under his command.
Fun fact:Half of Odysseus' problems would be solved if his crew knew how to fucking fish
Edit:To specify. If they knew how to fish,they wouldn't need to land on polyphemus' island. If they didnt land there,they would not have had to harm him. If they didn't harm him,POSEIDON wouldn't be pissed off at them etc. They wouldnt have ended up at circe's which would have saved em from going to the underworld and then going to scylla and then literally everyone else dying.
This is speaking musical wise of course. It is more complicated in the original
For real, there’s ocean all around them
@@grapeleiva2266I mean, the God of the Ocean’s actively working against em, they might be unable to get a good catch 😂
@@rtn6748 oh, that’s true lol
Idk man, Poseidon's kinda angy at them LOL
@rtn6748 that wasn't true before Polyphemus, the first time the hunger fucks them over
can’t wait to see your reaction, when eurylochus started singing the how much longer till… i broke like why jorge why 😔
Something I love about Zeus personifying pride as a woman. He’s saying all men seek and desire pride, but only Zeus is entitled to it. Really fits Zeus’ character
I love Anniflamma's animatic so much. It really shows how guilt ridden and tired Odysseus is.
Neil's animation for Thunder Bringer IS TOP NOTCH! I hope Casper and you react to that one!
Duvetbox too! Their version is amazing as well
Mortius have you ever considered listening to Jorge's earlier musical 'my heart says go'? I waggled me ears at it yesterday and it is really very good; I think you would enjoy it a lot, and it really deserves more recognition. As always, looking forward to another reaction from my go-to reactor!
I JUST realized that the tune from Survive is also Zeus's part in Horse and the Infant
A vision-- of what is to come-- cannot be outrun-- can only be dealt with right here and now--
My brothers-- the rest of our fleet-- they wait at the beach-- And if we're defeated they're good as dead--
But now it makes so much sense, seeing not only that Zeus is about to come back AND they're about to repeat same events that triggered Survive.
Now that you've seen Thunder Bringer, I can say this: Polyphemus' still technically keeps his end of the deal "You shall be the final man to die"
Well, the rest of who was in the crew died in Thunder Bringer, so his promise holds up. Now, no matter if he lives or dies, he's the final one to die, either by old age or by god.
My favorite(?) thing about the end of Mutiny is the fact that Odysseus completely gives up on hiding his intentions. He is so vulnerable and weak from his wounds that he loses all pretense and says “I need to get home” instead of “we need to get home.” That’s just how I view it though. You could argue that since Eurylochus has basically said they’re never getting home that Odysseus has given up trying to represent the desire to get home as a collective want.
32:11 FINALLY!! Glad someone notice that before me! I noticed that the Opening Main Menu for EPIC sounds like the piano melody of "Hopes and Dreams" from Undertale.
Zeus basically describing pride as yet another woman he can manipulate for his entertainment and pleasure fits so well
33:20 That is the face of a man who knows what he’s done.
-iny, and of course Thunder Bringer! I absolutely love your content, I first saw you in your reaction to The Dragonborn Comes, and as A Fellow Nerd I was immediately hooked! As time went on and I saw your consistent ability to vocalize *why* I like certain music, I got more and more into your content, and now with your pivot into musicals (Epic, Six, Hamilton, and beyond), I'm fully re-entering my shameless, music(al)-loving self that has taken more of a backseat in recent years. That is to say, thank you for giving me a space to reconnect with my inner child and feel safe to be me. I really appreciate everything you do, and while I'm not in a position to be a part of the Patreon right now, once I am, yours will be the first! In any case, thank you for all you do, not just for me, but for everyone in this little found family you've made. I'm so happy for all your successes, and can't wait for what the future holds, here, with OAR (go subscribe if you're Not Mortius And Made It This Far), and everything else to come! Well now I guess there's nothing else to say except, Gals, Blokes, and All Other Folks 😉👉👆 I'll see you in the next video 😁👋
So a few notes on character motivations:
Eurylochus is often accused of plain stupidity, but I think thats a disservice to the character. By Scylla, he's seen that his friend and leader values his and the crew's lives less than his own. By Mutiny, he's giving into despair and suicidality. He's not stupid, he's depressed.
Zeus is using the figure of a young woman, a damsel, as someone he has the right to violate. So he's saying, as king, he has the power to violate and ruin prideful people in the same way that he assault and rapes women.
It's such a good, concise summary of his character. Hes such a despicable villain that our protags have no hope to fight
⚡ : "pride is a damsel in distress" because of me, I'm the one distressing her :D
It's interesting how in Mutiny we get a parallel to previous Odysseus songs - Horse and the Infant, Just a Man, Luck Runs Out, Storm, and then Thunderbringer is basically Eurylochus's Ruthlessness!
They way you just keep throwing yourself at the wall behind you in emotional distress 😭😭🫶 I feel you man
I am so happy I was not the only clueless person who discovered that Zeus' part in the Horse and the Infant is the same as Survive because of the end part of Mutiny there. I thought I was just stupid when I suddenly realized. 😂
Thank you so much for these reactions, Mortius! I always end up enjoying the songs more after watching you react to them.
24:14 Jorge mentioned somewhere that he is showing how far Odysseus is below Zues in Zues's opinion that Zues shows up on Odysseus's ship and doesn't even address Odysseus until the 2nd verse. Ita a power play!
One thing some people have noticed, is that in Just a Man when he sings ‘When does a man become a monster’ for the first time, the mutiny instrumental plays quietly in the background. It’s answering the question. ‘When does a man become a monster’? It’s when others view you as such.
I love how despite Odysseus's determination to make it back to his son and wife, right after killing off his crew, his brother, to save himself, even the thoughts of those he holds dear cannot compel him to try to swim towards the surface. He'd thrown himself away and become the monster to protect them, not just himself, and now he was, thanks to his own actions, surrounded by the corpses of the rest of his friends. And he didn't swim up. He didn't look for a piece of the ship to cling to until he reached land or found aid. He didn't take hold of the chance he'd given himself because now that his fear has passed, the cost is too great.
the way zeus isn't even singing about what is happening and the current events and just talks about himself, just shows how narcissistic he is and the fact that he refers to pride, and other stuff as a woman and describing about controlling her is also another way of showing just how much of a horndog he is
Did you notice the book ends? Siren Penelope tells Ody to jump in the water in suffering and at the end of the Saga that's where he ends up.
Ody´s pride was that all of his men survived the war. His pride is now broken and sacrificed for a vague chance of going home.
I just want to drop in an appreciation post for your editor. Their comments on screen are a wonderful addition to your reactions. Go Mason!
I honestly think that you reacted to mutiny in the best way possible.
Odysseus is gonna have a lot of explaining to do to his sister. "Your husband stood up to me after I tricked him into unwittingly condemning six men to death, I took issue with that, got stabbed, then we ended up on an island, your husband was starving and not able to think rationally because of the hunger, and when the sun god sent Zeus to confront us, he gave me the choice of sacrificing myself or the entire crew, and to make a long story short, you're a widow."
I live for all the times the songs make Mortius go off screen 😂
Eury mutinies and takes charge of the crew for real, after which we see him go on the same musical (themes) journey Ody did. He makes all the decisions based on whats best for the crew and in contrast with Ody he fails, leading all of the men to their death. "If you want all the power, you must carry all the blame".
The animators when Jorge makes them animate the most gut wretching angst (they are also fans of epic after all): PLEASE DONT MAKE ME DO THIS, DONT MAKE ME DO THIS
Nahhh, they enjoy it, have you seen their Tumblrs? 😂
@@LiviSleepy nah that's devil work 💀
Mortius really released Scylla + Mut and Iny + Thunderbringer
AnniFlama is also doing a FULL Thunderbringer animatic with HER Zeus design. Which is stunning.
They recorded a video promoting "Thunderbringer" at Steven Dookies (Polites) wedding, and it's so good. They all look great, but Luke in a tuxedo while wearing his lightning bolt necklace is such a great look.
Something I like that I think Jorge mentioned about the BTS for Thunderbringer is that Zeus is so full of himself he doesn't even acknowledge Odysseus and his crew until the second verse XD
The way Mortius prophesied Calypso’s appearance I can’t even
I'm so looking forward to him realizing he was right
Oh my gosh, Jorge's evil grin. 😂😂
The piano at the end is called "Telemachus's lullaby" jorge said. I think its a rendition of Athena's motif slowed down.
19:12 I love how as soon as he realises he's cut Mutiny in half, his first reaction is saying that the comment section is going to cruify him, which, in retrospect, _they did_ lol
IM CRYING IM SO USED FOR YOU AND CASPER TO HAVE PREMIERS RIGHT AFTER EACH OTHER 😭😭
in my head cannon i love to think right after eurylochus slays the cows the first line of the background chorus is "How now, Brown cow" XD
Your reaction to Anni Flamma was amazing! Yours amd Caspars reactions are healing me!
When Ody says “please don’t do this,” you interpreted it as a sign that he still cares about his friend, but in fact I think it’s the opposite. His next line is “I need to get home,” showing that, after everything they’ve been through, he still only cares about himself, and his family. I think this is one of the most damning moments for Odysseus, in terms of his moral character.
Yeah, he knows it'll get them in trouble, an analogy I saw was basically a kid getting a group into trouble and one of them turning on the rest to avoid punishment
The realization of the motif repeat was amazing!
9:44 I think mean both.
That part of the song survive is about doing anything to well survive and not let the cyclop kill you. In the same way killing the cows and eating them is a way of keeping surviving and continuing existing.
In horse and the infint however the lines that Zeus has talks for that specific melody is about the future (the vision) that is to come and can not be stopped from happening. However in this case the melody have a double meaning, or at lest I see it this way, being not only about that vision zeus mention but also send us back to "No longer you" when the profet also is presenting the future to ody. If my mythology knowledge is not wrong the profet tell ody how his man will kill the cows and this is hidden in theblines "I see portraits and betrayals and a brother final stand". That line was not only about Eury and Ody fighting in the first half of Muttany but also about Eury's betrayals (explaining why in Sylla the animatic showcase Ody cold and untouched by Eury's confession) and alsp eury's final stand representing his decision of whether or not to kill the cows.
Am I delulu for thinking so dip, probably but I love hiperanalysing stuff :D
16:51
I love that there are actually TWO danger motifs here, I think it’s the first time we’ve gotten two back to back.
What Zeus is saying: "Pride is my woman. Stop flirting with her, or I'll show you why she belongs to me." Simultaneously gross and terrifying.
I dont think im the only one but notice how that melody at the end of thunder bringer sounds much like the end of my goodbye when athena says the
"One day, you'll hear what I'm saying
One day, you might understand"
welll, maybe this is that day
Post mutiny is the only time Eurylochus could call him Ody. In his eyes, Odysseus is no longer his captain.