It's funny thing in thunderbringer Zeus bows Odysseus because Odysseus is also a king and before i forgot Zeus was very big into being nice to your guest including a king bowing to another king in there on home
He's the god of hospitality, which is probably why he also is intervening for Helios, they were guests on his islands and they slaughtered Helios cattle. If you know the story Tantalus, same thing happens
One of my favorite jokes people make on scylla videos is " I can forgive feeding our men to the monster, but HARMONIZING WITH HER!!!" I just love the indignation 😂
On the immortal cow thing, immortal technically just means you don't age. That's why a lot of things say 'immortal and unkillable' because those are two VERY different powers
Non-aging is actually a subcategory of immortality called biological immortality, in the most basic and oldest definition immortality literally means and translates to being unable to die, in fact the Greeks categorized many of the people and monsters in their myths into the two categories of immortals (gods, nymphs, titans and some monsters) and mortals (regular humans, heroes, demigods), so it really depends on what definition is Jorge using.
Fun Face, the creator actually said that the “Ruthlessness” song is actually the main message of the musical, where ruthlessness is necessary at times, but it’s important to determine when
as a lot of ppl brought it up before, the sirens Jorge describes have gills, generally fish with gills need to be swimming forward or constantly moving in the water to have oxygen flowing through their gills, so if they cant swim they cant breath.
Plus, there's the whole bleeding-out-from-missing-half-your-body thing, but yeah, fish are entirely capable of drowning if they can't swim, like sharks when they get their fins torn off
I was just going off of 'Pirates of the Carribean' rules; there were sirens in one of the movies and they kept one in basically a fish tank, and she almost drowned in it
I love how the Ruthlessness animator saw about 16 other renditions, took noted of all their best parts, then said "hold my beer" I love the whirlpool too. I also love how EVERYTHING the prophet said is only applicable to act 2. He's not talking about Penelope or Polites.
The last part, no. "I see the PAST and Future Running Free". Everything could have double meanings towards things that have happened already and are going to happen
@@bradleybarnett1469 Yeah! And my personal interpretation is like this: First chorus is about the past Song of past romance referring to Ody's past with Penelope Sacrifice of man is Polites Portrayals of betrayal the wind bag being opened Brother's final stand is well uh.. Polites again my bad- Brink of death is with Poseidon Final breath (I saw this from a different comment and made it my headcanon also) is Ody's "final breath" before entering the underworld Then second chorus is about the future (which is why we got to hear the souls of the damned chanting siren song, scylla's throat, mutiny, lightning bolt, "whirlpool, Poseidon" [as Gwendy has tried to analyze]): Song of past romance sirens Sacrifice of man scylla Portrayals of betrayal mutiny Brother's final stand Eury dying in thunder bringer Brink of death Ody being underwater after Zeus's strike Final breath could be for his actual death in the future (not included in epic)
Context for the April Fools video- Jorge made a TikTok saying “As many of you know, we recently had to drop the act 1 closer ‘Monster’, for being too dark” (a song many people were hyped for), “but I’m coming up with something else, and here it is.” Then proceeded to play that. Gigi animated it, lore-accurate Odysseus and all, even making reference to the 360s they’ve become known for 😂
Odysseus was both captain and king to his crew, and as captain he could have chosen to take responsibility for his crews actions with the cow but they had just betrayed their king with the mutiny so the received the judgment of a king given by the god of kings.
You mentioned how animatics change how the songs meanings are perceived. Have you considered watching the animatics that were commissioned by Jorge? He tells the animators how he envisions the scene and even gives them references for how he wants it to look. They're not complete animations for the songs, just like small sections of them. But imo they really do go a long way.
@@soulbound2 Yeah, but it’s discouraged as it doesn’t support the official releases of the music. Unless you get direct permission like Mortius did, I would not recommend making a reaction video to the livestream itself. Edit: The new livestreams are still publicly available on Jorge’s channel, so maybe it’s fine now? Not sure if they’ll remain that way, but it’s already been a couple days.
@@soulbound2 yeah you can but even the full streams don't have full animatics. the ones that jorge posts on his channel are the entire animatics that were on the streams.
With circe, my thought is she's Odysseus' mirror. She became a monster to protect her people, but still held out hope that maybe Mercy could be a choice. Ody, however, began as the hopeful one, but death after death and delay after delay began to drive that hope out. Leaving only the monster inside as his final choice to get home to Penelope. One becomes a monster by choice, the other because they believe they have no choice.
the message i took is that "mercy" is a choice that only the strong have, something they can show those weaker than them, and that (at least back in ancient greece) if you were weaker than your opponent, ruthlessness was the only way you could hope to survive. with the moly, circe and odysseus were on equal footing, so they were able to show each other vulnerability and mercy, and it worked out. contrast to the other instances: initially odysseus begs opponents too strong for him for mercy and they refuse. later, odysseus has the upper hand, and when people beg him for mercy, he refuses.
The thing about not cutting the head is because, it would kill them instantaneously. Which is effective, but cutting their tails and leaving them to drown and bleed out is also a guaranteed way to kill them, but an inhumane, monstrous way, as it is slow and painful in contrast with just a simple beheading. This is what they meant with he is a different beast, a man-made monster. He was too kind by letting the cyclops live with just being blinded, and now he is too ruthless by not killing with grace, but torturing in his kills.
I've said it before. The theme isn't that mercy is wrong. It's about choices and how you can't _not_ make a choice, no matter how much you dislike the options. The story starts with Odysseus forced to make a choice, and every time that his actions come back to bite him, it's when he tried to get out of choosing something. Didn't want to choose between the life of the cyclops or his men? Well, he let the cyclops live, so now his men have to die. Rather than pick six men to die, he made Eurylochus do it without knowing? Eurylochus realized what happened and led a mutiny. Meanwhile, with Circe he _did_ make a choice. First to confront her instead of running away, and then after choosing again when it was between being faithful to Penelope or giving in to temptation...and because he had the resolve to choose, he was able to achieve a good result that time.
So the starvation thing is one of the areas of the Odyssey - In the original story, they're trapped on helios's Island by Divine storms for over a month. So when they say they're starving, they mean quite literally they're starving. This is one of the things that pushes the men to slaughter one of the cows of helios in the first place, Because when they consider death by slow starvation versus death by the wrath of a God, if you're doomed to die either way, you might as well die full.
4 ruthlessness, I think it actually makes more sense having Poseidon acted this way. In this video he's acting more as a force of nature, whereas in most of the other music videos of this song he is acting more of a predator
My only issue with it is that I don't feel like the face matches the voice most of the song, if that makes sense. Like his tone doesn't match the expressions used.
@@tonberry7744 I mean I feel like, for the most part, animatics manage to capture the vibe I get from the songs. Just in this version of Ruthlessness, Poseidon's constant angry expressions don't really feel like they match the words or tone of voice in the same way that the two other big ones do. It's very much my subjective take on it of course.
I feel so bad for Tiresias (the prophet). His story goes that when he was young, he was walking through the woods and saw two snakes copulating on the path. He struck them with his staff to move them aside, and Hera, displeased (for reasons that are never really made clear) punishes him by turning him into a woman. He remains this way for seven years, until he's out in the woods again and sees two snakes copulating on the path. Probably thinking "Hey, worth a shot", he strikes the snakes again and turns back into a man. Then, a few years later, Hera and Zeus get into an argument (shocker) over who gets more pleasure out of sex, men or women. Zeus thinks women do, and Hera thinks men do. They decide to ask Tiresias, who had spent time as both, in order to settle their agreement. When Tiresias (probably thinking "damn it, why does this shit keep happening to me") says that women do, Hera takes it VERY well. She strikes him blind on the spot and storms off in a huff. Zeus, unable to undo what his wife did, decides to just kind of...give Tiresias the gift of prophecy and then leaves. And then later in life, Tiresias's grandson Pentheus gets torn apart by his mother and sisters who got driven mad by Dionysus. The only think Tiresias ever did wrong was hit a couple snakes, and then the rest of his life was absolutely bonkers as a result.
The 12 long years bit was actually a mistake by Jorge who misspoke during the recording. Now it's canon Odysseus just forgot how long he's been away from ithica
He says "12 years or so" in Different Beast. He's lost track of the days/months at this point, but it was certainly getting closer to 13 years by that point.
Creative liberties were taken. In Epic the musical, they don't share the same strait and instead Poseidon represents the Charybdis that will kill them all if they don't go through Scylla's lair, but also there's a charybdis song coming up.
Charybdis is in Epic, according to the song Charybdis(From the snippets of it, it sounds amazing), you need to avoid it, and I think that if Odysseus knew Scylla(How to go through her), he should know a bit about Charybdis too, and if he did, he most likely knew that he is not avoiding Charybdis in a ship big enough to hold 40-50 men + resources
It’s funny as both Scylla and Charybdis are seen a daughter of Posideon in one way or another. And both got turned into a monster, Scylla because of Circe and Charybdis because of Zeus.
@jamiedanielvincent6940 So the original choice between Charybdis and Scylla was a little more nuanced from my understanding. If they braved Charybdis they either all lived or died together based on knowledge, skill and a lot of luck since they would have to times things just right. (So it would be an all or nothing gamble.) Versus Scylla which guaranteed 6 would die but the majority would live. But for better or worse Ody doesn't have that choice here since they are not neighbors in this version. But the theme is somewhat kept as Ody still could have tried doing things differently so everyone could have a chance to live even if it took longer or was more risky, but he went for the quick guarantee.
Scylla was CREATED by Circe out of spite and jealousy using Moly. The Man- turned-God Gloucous whom Circe loved fancied the Nymph Scylla over her. Circe than "poisoned" the water pool where Scylla went to bathe and she was thus transformed into the Monster we know now. I believe to some degree it was always a regret Circe had in the end.
That’s one version. The men who recorded the mythologies loved to make women the jealous aggressors. Not that they can’t be, but it’s a common theme in ancient written works.
Honestly depends on the version. In some versions Scylla was a fairy turned into that by Aphriadite (Poseidon's wife) and in other versions she was born that way daughter of the deep sea
The version I heard is that she was a nymph daughter of Poseidon who Circe cursed. And that's why Poseidon avoids her because he's ashamed of not being able to help his daughter.
@whitenobeard That actually Charybdis who was cursed by Zeus. Scylla just happens to live next to her. Fun Fact: the line "between the rock and hard place" comes from this: between Scylla and Charybdis. And Scylla means bitch in Greek
54:20 Honestly this sequence reminds me of how Zeus tested Ixion and punished him for his own pride--conjuring a cloud form of Hera (which Ixion proceeded to unite with) and striking Ixion down for his arrogance when he later bragged about sleeping with "her".
26:41 In the original Odyssey, Aeolus wasn't actually a god. He was the King of Aeolia, and the "Keeper of the winds." Whenever the gods commanded him to, he would release the winds and let them cause storms at sea. In the original, he was genuinely trying to help them, but decided to stop when they opened the bag and were blown back to his island. In later versions, the gods had a betting pool going on whether Odysseus would make it home or not, which Aeolus got to be a part of. I can't remember if he bet against him or not, but he tried to influence the outcome with his gift.
Keep in mind Odysues' Pride may as will be his wife, his everything, what made him strong. If there is any god that can target and break Odyseus down it'd be Zeus as he knows exactly what makes a man tick. To others point the morals to me is when it comes to enemys one must be ruthless, but when it comes to interactions one must know when to show kindness. Hermies is often a good shower of the power of timing and how to make the most of any situation.
Calling Poseidon’s trident triton’s spear hurts my brain so hard because that dude is literally Poseidon’s son and inherited Poseidon’s trident probably
13:10 this part to me shows how kindness and being sincere has it's place, at this part of the story odysseus still has hope to bring what is left of his men home and telling Circe all he wants is to get home {with a little help from Hermes to ward against her charms} and he never broke any hospitality rules and was being truthful about his intents. just my take anyway lol
Hard agree. Most of the figures who are vocal about mercy or ruthlessness go to an extreme: Polites dies of it, Poseidon kills for it, etc. Ody also winds up suffering whenever he goes to an extreme: drowning in guilt over Astyanax left him unable to save his men from the danger of the cuckoos, then trying to be gracious to that cyclops left his men dead, and (in Epic at least) his further misguided graciousness left him teaching a "lesson" to Polyphemus that brought Poseidon down on him. Then when he switches to ruthlessness, going full monster without any mercy left, he alienates his crew into mutiny. It's only when he's shown in balance, during the Circe visit, that things go well. Likewise Circe is shown in more-or-less balance, and things go well for her. Then there was Athena, who was advocating (poorly) for balance, and if her instructions had been followed then Ody wouldn't have blindly offended Polyphemus. Even Zeus is shown prospering in balance: he shows up, fulfills his obligations, then can leave without consequence, which is not how his interactions with myth usually go.
What I love about neals aninatics is that he draws the angry gods as the giant powerful forces of nature they are instead of shrinking them down to human size
Eurylochus bringing his “instrument” of the crew to clash against Odysseus’ electric guitar during the fight hits the emotions hard, but is also so cool
I had no idea it was actually "row for your lives" instead of "run for your lives." That makes a bit more sense, but I thought "run" also made sense in a metaphorical way.
8:05 i think the implication for why he didn't use the bag of winds at first is that it wouldn't save the entire fleet, so once the rest of the fleet is destroyed he immediately uses.
10:11 The way the chromatic change shows they BOTH don't want this, but Odysseus has his eyes closed to dissasociate while Circe has them open to use this act is AMAZING.
I love the detail of Odysseus closing his eyes as his men approach to hide away from the guilt but at the VERY last moment opens them and looks them in the eyes as he faces the consequences of his choice
I think poseidon was going to kill him anyways because he say "the line between naivity and hoppefullness is almost invisible". I see it as if he had said "you really tough I would forgive you? You are so naive"
exactly my take away. people put too much stock in what oddyseus is saying or how he's portrayed, when the reality is that Poseidon doesn't actually CARE, he already decided from the get go what he was gonna do because no apology was gonna sate his anger at the sheer GALL of this MORTAL to maim one of HIS possessions.
The thing I love about Neil’s animations is they make Zeus and Poseidon feel like gods and forces of nature. Them looming over Odysseus and the crew, Zeus leaning on a mountain and Poseidon pulling himself up on the water like it’s solid ground is just perfect
44:49 "Technically" Eurylochus is responsible for those five hundred dead, because if he had trusted his friend, who is his captain and also the King, all those people who were killed by Poseidon would have survived, and would be home now.
Before anybody says "But Poseidon would attack Ithaca" he couldn't have, it is a belief in mythology that a god can't interfere with another gods doing, so Aeolus helping Odysseus would make it to where Poseidon can't attack them, as long as 1 god is on Ody's side, he's safe from Poseidon, so if he gets Aeolus to keep him safe, or (somehow) reconnects with Athena, he's good (I only know Epic when it comes to mythology, my cousin who is a huge mythology fan told me this when I brought her into Epic, so tell me if she was mistaken)
@@CORBIN2263YT I think you're right, because I think that if they didn’t open that bag of winds, the goddess of the winds would still be on Odysseus’s side, but since he couldn’t keep that deal, Odysseus is once again without god’s protection.
@@PetarSon oh he definitely did, but we can't say for sure they're be safe in Ithaca if he hadn't. He's the voice of the crew; he wasn't the only one who wanted that bag opened
"A picture is worth a thousand words" like you said the animations add so much context each animation tells a new story even though it is the same song 😁
23:48 right around here in the animation where he pulls his hair he is showing her his ear showing it is plugged he is giving her a chance to call off her sisters
One last concession to Polites' philosophy of compassion before he adopts ruthlessness. Compassion, but with wisdom - the type Circe showed him in the end. And what gives him the power to give in to ruthlessness, both here and later, was Penelope - all his power. Even if that wasn't Ximena's explicit intention with the ear tuck, nice catch! Edit: The sirens actually calling off the attack after Odysseus got the information might have changed the encounter with Scylla. Her song starts with Scylla as Odysseus' shoulder devil, but with Odysseus not having _needed_ to spill blood yet, he might not be as willing to sacrifice his men. Her line of "we are the same, you and I" would clash with his sensibilities, since his personal promise in Monster has yet to snowball into actual violence, only posturing. She also wouldn't be paralleling what Odysseus did to the sirens - "drown in your sorrow and tears, choke on your blood and your fears, bleed till you've run out of years" and "die in the blood that you bathe." Instead of reaffirming what Odysseus 'knows' about himself now, it would have hit him much harder - and who knows, maybe Eurylochus would be able to see a kindred spirit in Odysseus feeling visceral regret, rather than a cold certainty, at his latest "betrayal".
16:25 There's multiple ways you can take nearly every part here: Song of past romance: (Past) Obviously Penelope vs (Future) the song Suffering Sacrifice of man/men: (Past) The baby / Polites vs (Future) Scylla and the six torches/lives he pays Portrayals of betrayal: (Past) Luck Runs Out where Eurylochus and the crew start to question Oddyseus leading into Keep Your Friends Close, where they betray him with opening the wind bag vs (Future) Scylla again, Odysseus betraying the crew's trust by sacrificing them AND Mutiny, where the crew obviously turn against their captain A brother's final stand: This one I always felt would be before the betrayal but my thoughts are: (Past) Either Luck Runs Out as he takes a stand and questions his captain or Puppeteer vs (Future) Obviously Mutiny too (like betrayal), or a reference to Thunderbringer depending on interpretation. I've seen some animatics where the crew rush Odysseus after his choice - making their final stand - and Eurylochus is either joining or accepting his fate. I absolutely love No Longer You and Ximena's animatic for it.
I don't think its about ruthlessness being merci its about Humility, He lost 6 man to Cyclops because he thought he outwitted him, he lost over 550 man because he couldn't resist bragging to cyclops or to apologise to Poseidon. He lost the rest after keeping his crew in the dark and using them as pawns. It's lack of trust and hubris that killed his man. The one time he showed humility was with Circe. Pride is a damsel in distress, and Zeus quite literally undress it in front of him.
A comment I saw on the Ruthlessness animatic where Posiedon has a water arm goes something like "Posideon here is disabled, so he understands the hardship of disability, and can only cope with that because of being a god. And Odysseus has just disabled his son, in a much more difficult way to navigate" and that idea stuck with me. Posideon is angry that Ody has put his son in the same situation he's in, arguably a worse poition, instead of outright killing Polyphemus and sparing him the agony, showing mercy.
So some context for the Monster April Fools one- The Underworld Saga, which ends with the song Monster, was released in April. On April 1st, Jorge posted a video as a joke where he said that Monster had to be cut from the musical because it was too dark and that this was the "new version".
You're wrong about the message of the musical. The whole point of the musical isn't that you need to be ruthless, but that you need a healthy balance of ruthlessness and mercy. Circe is just the first time that message has actually shone through. Odysseus' major character flaw is that he doesn't do things by half. It's ALWAYS one extreme or the other with him. Monster is him choosing to stick with the "monster" that Athena wanted him to be. A warrior of the mind. Ruthless to enemies. Good to his friends. Willing to make whatever sacrifices necessary. Pragmatic.
Ximena and Gigi have my favorite versions of Scylla but the first version of thunderbringer I saw was from nael, honestly both their interpretations of Scylla are probably my favorite (Scylla anim). (Oh and one more recommendation is krieo's version of no longer you)
Poseidon would not have stood for just Odysseus’s death. Back then there was a thing where if a leader did a wrong then the whole people were guilty. This is why Poseidon didn’t just kill Odysseus.
Jorge said that Ruthelessness is the main theme of the story and it's balance against kindness. So I think the kindness of Circe is supposed to show us, that kindness can be used to achieve your goals as well and not just ruthelessness. But because of the enemies Odysseus faces, he is slowly being pushed further and further into the Ruthelessness and further away of the kindness he could show. ...also, I think that far too few are pointing out, that his crew were the first who ebtrayed him, by opening the bag of winds. They say _how can we trust you now_ while we literally have the guy who was part of the bag opening being their new "running mate"... Odysseus was wrong, but so were the rest as well. He is still in the end of the day a commander of soldiers and commanders have sometimes to sacrifice men, to win the war. Also, while he did do the stupid by revealing his real name, in the end of the day he isn't the guy who killed the rest of his crew. And if his crew hadn't opened the bag, they would have safely returned home, so... really, all are at fault.
Animatics I hadn't seen: Neal Illustrator's Ruthlesness Ximena Natzel's Different Beast gigi's Scylla (though I was planning to) Also, had no clue Eurylochus was actually Odysseus' brother, that's wild!
@@Airier Yeah ik just didn't care to specify in law. And god it's gonna be so interesting to see how the musical's version is gonna end in Ithaca, it's gonna be heartbreaking for sure.
I say you don't need to be on any side. These are morally grey characters. I love them all anyways. The musical is all about "How far would you be willing to go to achieve your goal?"
Neals depiction of Zeus is absolutely perfect to me and is my personal favourite, Zeus shows no bloodlust or rage but just pure smugness and pride as he purposely toys with mortals lives. Odysseus and his crew for him isn't worth taking seriously or being enraged by their actions, so instead he plays around and enjoys himself being boastful about himself before even talking to Odysseus. How he talks about all it takes is for him to apply all the pressure as for Zeus there is no *NO* for him, he does what he likes with nobody to answer him no. Zeus purposely stays giant/huge whilst looming over them, he doesn't bother lowering himself to their level and wants them to see the King of the Gods in all his glory. With him only ever lowering himself when making Odysseus choose which from what we see isn't out of respect but to savour the reaction of Odysseus in making the choice. He gleefully grins once Odysseus gives him the thing he wants then proceeds to dance whilst he prepares to kill off the crew. Neals Zeus is what I imagine when listening to this song
I listened to everything on spotify after watching all the animatics I could find, and that changed my interpretation of some songs too. For instance, in the beginning of Puppeteer, Odysseus dismissing Eurylochus sounds like he actually knew already that he was the one who opened the bag.
1:01:45 yeah this part hits hard the burden of leadership is heavy indeed i have seen NCO's and officers break down when they think no one is looking, survivor's guilt too all he wanted was to get him and his men home..........man the feeling sucks.
I hadn't seen that version of Ruthlessness. It was like watching it all over again for the first time but with a friend who was just as geeked out as me😂 😂😂😂😂
The problem with trying to feed sirens to Scylla to pass is that according to mythology (and the linguistics involved), she very specifically only eats men. Also ironically, Scylla's singing is multifaceted in the same way Tiresias' was, though in this case what she's singing applies to both Odysseus and Eurylochus in different ways. Odysseus is the more obvious one, but the words also comment on how Eurylochus' actions have eroded what faith Odysseus has kept in him and confirming that he was the one who opened the wind bag when they were within sight of Ithaca and caused the storm to carry them to Laestrygonians and Poseidon severs what remained. In some way, that also explains why Odysseus was so surprised that the whole remaining crew turned on him in mutiny instead of it being just Eurylochus - he didn't think they'd follow the man who delivered 550 men to Poseidon to be killed and prevented them all from getting home.
Something that makes Zeus way scarier to me than Poseidon is his thing about giving a choice or a chance when really, whatever he wants to happen is what's gonna happen. Poseidon's just gonna kill you, you piss him off, he's just gonna kill you, or in Ody's case, let him live to make him suffer more. Zeus is like "I'll give you a choice, but I already know what it'll be."
imo the 'pride is a damsel in distress' part and all that in thunderbringer is more metaphor than literal; like its Zeus relishing in his power as a god and how the pride and hubris of man always falls short and now he gets to be the direct consequence of said pride; and we all know how Zeus treats ladies so.... We know hes happily enjoying this process of tearing apart Odysseus pride and watching him 'squirm' yk? its nasty- but also genius wordplay for Zeus' part.
For the Different Beasts animatic, the head may have been a better option...if they wanted a quick death. Cut in half, they're not only bleeding to death but they can't breathe if they can't swim. The cruelty was the point.
It should be mentioned that what Odysseus says to Poseidon ISN'T AN POLOGY, it's a JUSTIFICATION, he explains why he did it (not an apology) and he claims he "took no pleasure in his pain" (also not an apology, and probably bulls*t)
You keep saying that the decision in Thunder Bringer is because the gods "find it funny to make you choose" but I interpret it differently. Zeus sees himself as a fatherly figure scolding Odysseus, like an adult punishing a child for throwing a tantrum. "Either I take your crew away or you go to bed without dinner." To him it's just a lesson it's his job to teach, but he's so removed from the morality of a human being that he doesn't realise or care about how horrific it is from a human perspective.
Regarding how he was able to talk things out with Circe, Ive heard that Jorge said that ruthlessness is one of the main themes and messages of the musical, but not on its own. The point is not to only be merciful or to only be ruthless, its to learn that you need both and the knowledge of when to apply it. Odysseus starts off with that balance, but then when Polites dies, he chooses to live his legacy by being merciful all the time, which comes to bite him in the ass in the form of the cyclops and poseidon. Then he becomes the monster and flips all the way to becoming only ruthless, and thats also not a good thing because it caused a mutiny. The issue with Odysseus isnt his mercy or his lack of it, its his pride. His pride causes him to believe that any thought process he goes on or any choice he makes should be followed through 100% of the way, when realistically he only needs like 60% follow through. He needs to be merciful to the cyclops, but not enough that he leaves him alive, just enough to give him a quick death. He needs to be ruthless to the sirens, but not so ruthless that he kills them through slow, torturous methods when he can kill them quickly. In a sea of mistakes he's made so far, he made the correct choice of trying to talk things out with Circe because mercy was the smartest thing to do in that situation
LET'S GOOOO I love watching you react to all the different animatics! I personally hadn't seen a lot of the ones from the previous reaction, and I imagine I will have a similar experience in this one.
30:51 It's not just that he knows what's about to happen. It's that he knows they're going into Scylla's Lair. NO ONE ELSE on the crew knows that. He's literally the only one who "heard" the Siren say that, and then he told no one else about it. As if this song needed to get any darker. 😂
I love that you doing alternative animatics if you enjoy it, please do more and don’t forget that wisdom saga comes out next week August 30, though it is only the audio
28:30 heres my theory bc im not sure if its true Tw: mention of sa So zeus says "her" i think its refers to Odysseus, let me explain the start first, "pride is a damsel in distress" which means a women in distress, "hiding away where only i can undress her" which means zeus use to sa people, "but in the end its all the same once i put all the pressure" heres the explanation with an example: ur asking ur friend to do something that they dont wanna do but u will force them to, this whole part is about zeus talking about sa, well when he says "her" he means odyseuss, he didnt do sa to odyseuss and wont do sa to odyseuss he just says it that way because zeus is known for sa. Another theory that might be wrong 28:30 Shen he told Odysseus "if i were to make u choose life of ur men and crew or ur own, why do i think they'd lose?" Zeus already gave him the answer, he said "if" but then later in 28:30 he asked him to choose the lifes of his crew or him, which means that he wants Odysseus to sacrafice his men, even if they all are ganna die
I highly recommend checking out the official livestream when The Wisdom Saga drops. They're always a good time, feature lyrics and captions that explain what's going on during the songs, and also put some spotlights on animators in the community who work alongside Jorge to do small illustrations and animatics here and there. The animatics are commissioned and directed by him, and also feature his own take on the character designs, which are based heavily on their singers.
Thank you for this reaction it was awesome! And yes I did draw the sun god as Apollo because I assumed that the "sun god" was referring to Apollo. I forgot that Helios also had cows and considering Apollo does appear in a future song I just thought it would be Apollo here😅. And also the "Animal deat" was supposed to be "Animal DEATH". Spelling mistake I noticed only after I posted😂
Sorry beforehand if you already know this. They are TONS of music motifs for almost every character and to signal when something is going to happen. For example, Penelope's motif is a viola. Just by the music alone we can tell that the siren is not Penelope because a viola isn't present at all in Suffering, and some of the instruments used are electric. The humans in Epic usually just have acoustic instruments or non electrical ones so hearing these instruments definitely seems off in the first time hearing the song. But the siren does copy a mallet in the song (Polites' music motif! Ouch), and copies other song motifs throughout Suffering. That's just one of so many other interesting facts about the music motifs, Jorge put lots of work and thought into these! I've been working on a playlist that includes all of the yt shorts that talk about motifs and background information called Epic Lore but I'm still working on it.
fun fact: in the odyssey scylla actually is the lesser evil, because her lair is just out of reach of charybdis, ¿i might be wrong, but i think there is a version in she snacht the sailor while they are trying to manuver around charybdis whirpools? one must ask themselves if that means the crew realise that they being devoured while in a desperate attemp to not capsise from rough waters or just when they thought they were out of danger
I just realized...if he didn't kill the mermaids Odysseus may have had the chance to use them as fish food for Scylla instead of his men. But this man is now *RUTHLESS* and not the *WARRIOR OF THE MIND* like in the past. 28:38
@@Schinak I don't think so, It says that Scylla eats sailors or those near its territory, but it doesn't mean that it's exclusively humans. I'm pretty sure Scylla is not picky about the food, as long as it's food.
I am really curious to see if he watched animatics to "unreleased" songs in production "Dangerous" or "Get in the Water". Some have such amazing visuals on them.
I think the lesson might be "be carefull Who you show mercy"? Circe is not a god, she has a more Human side to her. But when you do it with the Gods, they get angry?
"I'd rather die at sea, with one deep gulp of death, than die by inches on this desolate island here." Eurylochus knew exactly what would happen if he killed the cattle, in fact he was counting on it. They've been at sea for YEARS at this point, facing loss after loss after loss and he's *done*. They're never going home, and better to die swiftly to an angry god than slowly to whatever fresh horror comes next
I always figured Poseidon's issue with Odysseus's apology is that Odysseus ... doesn't actually apologize. Nothing he says is actually an apology. I mean, I don't think he's LYING; he didn't take pleasure in the cyclops's pain because at that point he wasn't really taking pleasure in anything, and since they walked into the cave without knowing the cyclops was there, it's not like they waltzed in planning to do it--they did only hurt the cyclops because the cyclops decided 'murder for you, murder for your friends' was the proper response to 'you killed my pet sheep.' But Odysseus doesn't actually apologize; he offers a justification, and that is not what Poseidon told him to do. Poseidon told him to *apologize*.
I think the main message to take from Epic as it is at the moment is you need to be a good middle ground of being kind and ruthless. Ody actually starts in this position right at the start of the musical. He then goes too far to kindness and in some ways naivety and after ruthlessness goes back to the middle ground in a lot of ways. He then goes way over the deep end in underworld to full monster. Athena's entire thing of being a warrior of the mind is that middle ground, where you don't kill for killing sake but to protect people without being cruel to your enemies.
There are a lot of counterpoints with the series, but it also highlights Odysseus making the mistakes of being mortal and emotional versus Athena's teachings. If he had stuck to Athena's teachings, if he had remained a pragmatic Warrior of the Mind and made the best choices, nothing would have played out the way it did. And I just realized that "Thunder Bringer" and "Horse and the Infant"/"Just a Man" are parallels in Odysseus' narrative, in one he saves his men and nation while in the other he sacrifices his men out of the desire to save himself, and both are based around getting home to Penelope and Telemachus.
I've always thought it'd be Apollo as the Sun God mentioned, because he has sacred cows, and Zeus is considered his father. Thus why Zeus shows up in the song following Mutiny
In the other Mutiny you saw, my take is that cow wasn't still alive but hurt. That cow was dead, and Helios was looking through its dead eye to see who was responsible for killing it.
I don't see many people talking about it here, but the voices of the dead in the final part of the song are talking about future events and/or songs coming up in the future. The thing is.. the voices are really distorted. SPOILERS ABOUT THE SENTENCES SAID! IF YOU DON'T WANT TO KNOW DO NOT READ BELOW THIS! It extends to the events of the thunder saga and others not released yet. . . . . . . . . . . The dead sing: " Siren Song" "Scylla Throat" "Mutiny" "Lighting Bolt" "Wirlpool, Poseidon" "Kill all the Suitors for love" Hope that helps! ❤
Helios' first wife is Rhodes, one of Poseidon's immortal daughters. When he got together with Perseis, he kicked her out of the Sun Palace despite it being based on /her/ island. And even then, Helios' mythological one true love is a mortal woman. However, since Helios and Rhodes' wedding is officiated by Hera, it can be viewed by Divine Law that Helios and Perseis are not legally together.
One of the things that gets me with Odysseus apologizing to Poseidon is that he never actually apologized. He tried to talk himself out of the situation, making excuses. He said they did it to disarm him, that they didn't take pleasure in it, that they meant no harm, that they just wanted to escape. Not once did he actually apologize for making the Polyphemus suffer. Not that it mattered anyway. Poseidon's line of "The line between naivete and hopefulness is almost invisible" makes me think he never intended to let Odysseus go. Whether he actually apologized or not. It sounded like he was only pointing out to Odysseus that there was no talking his way out of the trouble he got himself into.
What I believe about the cut off their tails part is siren are mammals like whales and whales need to cut up after awhile to breathe or they drown even with gills. So when they threw them back in the water they would drown from not being able to swim back up, but that's just my belief
Don't get me wrong - Zeus is definitely unbearably smug and smarmy in this. But from the beginning part of Odysseus's character has been his pride and hubris - when zeus tells him to make the first choice, he starts brainstorming ways out of it ("I could raise him as my own-") . When Athena tells him what the "wise" choice is he tells her "no". When the cyclops is blinded he lets hubris get the better of him, and then when Poseidon asks for an apology he gives a slippery excuse rather than a sincere one, and on top of that escapes the conversation through more trickery. Half his character is "I can spin this to go my way" which - while trickster heros are great, arrogance is dangerous. I think a large part of this in Thunder Bringer is Zeus as King of Gods saying "I'm going to strip you of that pride and arrogance" regarding his constant assumption he can just "outplay" everyone/dieties especially.
It's funny thing in thunderbringer Zeus bows Odysseus because Odysseus is also a king and before i forgot Zeus was very big into being nice to your guest including a king bowing to another king in there on home
Even if in a mocking fashion.
He's the god of hospitality, which is probably why he also is intervening for Helios, they were guests on his islands and they slaughtered Helios cattle. If you know the story Tantalus, same thing happens
@@SuaveNerd2000Helios threatened him into doing it
@@area52ron"blackmail"
because you cant just threaten zeus. Helios basically went "yo, smite these mortals or the sun won't shine. Literally"
@@consentDracula that’s what I meant
One of my favorite jokes people make on scylla videos is " I can forgive feeding our men to the monster, but HARMONIZING WITH HER!!!" I just love the indignation 😂
On the immortal cow thing, immortal technically just means you don't age. That's why a lot of things say 'immortal and unkillable' because those are two VERY different powers
Non-aging is actually a subcategory of immortality called biological immortality, in the most basic and oldest definition immortality literally means and translates to being unable to die, in fact the Greeks categorized many of the people and monsters in their myths into the two categories of immortals (gods, nymphs, titans and some monsters) and mortals (regular humans, heroes, demigods), so it really depends on what definition is Jorge using.
Like nymphs don't age but can be killed and wounded. Gods however are pretty much unkillable.
Immortal means "can't die" but a lot of series use it in the way you described it. However, in Greek mythology, it means they cannot die.
I feel like even if they were unkillable, it probably hurts a lot to be slaughtered and eaten.
@@mielliot13 big ouchie indeed
Fun Face, the creator actually said that the “Ruthlessness” song is actually the main message of the musical, where ruthlessness is necessary at times, but it’s important to determine when
Neat
I said that way back in an earlier video when he watched “The Horse and the Infant” animatic.
@@nelleneulmer5385 Airier wouldnt have understood at all then
Circe was also the one who had warned them not to kill Helios's cows as Helios is her Father and she knew what would go down.
Wasn't Tiresias the one that warned them about the cows?
@@zayniem Tiresias just warn about betrayal, Circe was the one who specifically warn about the cattle I think
@@zayniem in the original story I think that is true but maybe things got turned around in the musical.
as a lot of ppl brought it up before, the sirens Jorge describes have gills, generally fish with gills need to be swimming forward or constantly moving in the water to have oxygen flowing through their gills, so if they cant swim they cant breath.
Plus, there's the whole bleeding-out-from-missing-half-your-body thing, but yeah, fish are entirely capable of drowning if they can't swim, like sharks when they get their fins torn off
@@disaster_catso either they’ll drown or bleed to death whichever comes first
@@area52ron Pretty much, they're screwed either way
@@disaster_cat Definitely
I was just going off of 'Pirates of the Carribean' rules; there were sirens in one of the movies and they kept one in basically a fish tank, and she almost drowned in it
Gigi’s animation for mutiny is considered canon
Right bc it was the one he used on the live
I love how the Ruthlessness animator saw about 16 other renditions, took noted of all their best parts, then said "hold my beer" I love the whirlpool too.
I also love how EVERYTHING the prophet said is only applicable to act 2. He's not talking about Penelope or Polites.
May I introduce you to TheArteest's animatic who included the Laestrygonians
The last part, no. "I see the PAST and Future Running Free". Everything could have double meanings towards things that have happened already and are going to happen
@@bradleybarnett1469 Yeah! And my personal interpretation is like this:
First chorus is about the past
Song of past romance referring to Ody's past with Penelope
Sacrifice of man is Polites
Portrayals of betrayal the wind bag being opened
Brother's final stand is well uh.. Polites again my bad-
Brink of death is with Poseidon
Final breath (I saw this from a different comment and made it my headcanon also) is Ody's "final breath" before entering the underworld
Then second chorus is about the future (which is why we got to hear the souls of the damned chanting siren song, scylla's throat, mutiny, lightning bolt, "whirlpool, Poseidon" [as Gwendy has tried to analyze]):
Song of past romance sirens
Sacrifice of man scylla
Portrayals of betrayal mutiny
Brother's final stand Eury dying in thunder bringer
Brink of death Ody being underwater after Zeus's strike
Final breath could be for his actual death in the future (not included in epic)
@@DracoCragore , his final breath in second act could be the switch between Get in the Water and 600 Strike.
@@meaypie11 That's true
I thought of this before Vengeance Saga was released
Context for the April Fools video-
Jorge made a TikTok saying “As many of you know, we recently had to drop the act 1 closer ‘Monster’, for being too dark” (a song many people were hyped for), “but I’m coming up with something else, and here it is.”
Then proceeded to play that. Gigi animated it, lore-accurate Odysseus and all, even making reference to the 360s they’ve become known for 😂
**i am the monster rawr rawr rawr**
Odysseus was both captain and king to his crew, and as captain he could have chosen to take responsibility for his crews actions with the cow but they had just betrayed their king with the mutiny so the received the judgment of a king given by the god of kings.
I love this!
You mentioned how animatics change how the songs meanings are perceived. Have you considered watching the animatics that were commissioned by Jorge? He tells the animators how he envisions the scene and even gives them references for how he wants it to look.
They're not complete animations for the songs, just like small sections of them. But imo they really do go a long way.
I believe Jorge is still in the process of uploading the official animatics snippets/illustrations, as he uploaded one to his channel this week.
You can probably find a full vid of the current stream
@@soulbound2 Yeah, but it’s discouraged as it doesn’t support the official releases of the music. Unless you get direct permission like Mortius did, I would not recommend making a reaction video to the livestream itself.
Edit: The new livestreams are still publicly available on Jorge’s channel, so maybe it’s fine now? Not sure if they’ll remain that way, but it’s already been a couple days.
@@soulbound2 yeah you can but even the full streams don't have full animatics. the ones that jorge posts on his channel are the entire animatics that were on the streams.
With circe, my thought is she's Odysseus' mirror. She became a monster to protect her people, but still held out hope that maybe Mercy could be a choice.
Ody, however, began as the hopeful one, but death after death and delay after delay began to drive that hope out. Leaving only the monster inside as his final choice to get home to Penelope.
One becomes a monster by choice, the other because they believe they have no choice.
Exactly
the message i took is that "mercy" is a choice that only the strong have, something they can show those weaker than them, and that (at least back in ancient greece) if you were weaker than your opponent, ruthlessness was the only way you could hope to survive. with the moly, circe and odysseus were on equal footing, so they were able to show each other vulnerability and mercy, and it worked out. contrast to the other instances: initially odysseus begs opponents too strong for him for mercy and they refuse. later, odysseus has the upper hand, and when people beg him for mercy, he refuses.
The thing about not cutting the head is because, it would kill them instantaneously. Which is effective, but cutting their tails and leaving them to drown and bleed out is also a guaranteed way to kill them, but an inhumane, monstrous way, as it is slow and painful in contrast with just a simple beheading. This is what they meant with he is a different beast, a man-made monster. He was too kind by letting the cyclops live with just being blinded, and now he is too ruthless by not killing with grace, but torturing in his kills.
I've said it before. The theme isn't that mercy is wrong. It's about choices and how you can't _not_ make a choice, no matter how much you dislike the options. The story starts with Odysseus forced to make a choice, and every time that his actions come back to bite him, it's when he tried to get out of choosing something. Didn't want to choose between the life of the cyclops or his men? Well, he let the cyclops live, so now his men have to die. Rather than pick six men to die, he made Eurylochus do it without knowing? Eurylochus realized what happened and led a mutiny. Meanwhile, with Circe he _did_ make a choice. First to confront her instead of running away, and then after choosing again when it was between being faithful to Penelope or giving in to temptation...and because he had the resolve to choose, he was able to achieve a good result that time.
Neal Illustrator's Thunder bringer animatic was my introduction into Epic: the musical, it was a hell of a way to get into it.
Same here. I’ve loved her work for a while and I am really thankful
Zeus being like: "Damn, I'm Zeus and I'm so amazing"
So the starvation thing is one of the areas of the Odyssey - In the original story, they're trapped on helios's Island by Divine storms for over a month. So when they say they're starving, they mean quite literally they're starving. This is one of the things that pushes the men to slaughter one of the cows of helios in the first place, Because when they consider death by slow starvation versus death by the wrath of a God, if you're doomed to die either way, you might as well die full.
4 ruthlessness, I think it actually makes more sense having Poseidon acted this way. In this video he's acting more as a force of nature, whereas in most of the other music videos of this song he is acting more of a predator
My only issue with it is that I don't feel like the face matches the voice most of the song, if that makes sense. Like his tone doesn't match the expressions used.
@@TomSketchit oh no, you're right. There are a few scenes through the entire saga where this very thing takes place
@@tonberry7744 I mean I feel like, for the most part, animatics manage to capture the vibe I get from the songs. Just in this version of Ruthlessness, Poseidon's constant angry expressions don't really feel like they match the words or tone of voice in the same way that the two other big ones do. It's very much my subjective take on it of course.
@TomSketchit honestly, I personally prefer gigs version myself for similar reasons. It's all good!
@@tonberry7744 That video was the first Epic Animatic I saw, and I was hooked for days.
I feel so bad for Tiresias (the prophet). His story goes that when he was young, he was walking through the woods and saw two snakes copulating on the path. He struck them with his staff to move them aside, and Hera, displeased (for reasons that are never really made clear) punishes him by turning him into a woman. He remains this way for seven years, until he's out in the woods again and sees two snakes copulating on the path. Probably thinking "Hey, worth a shot", he strikes the snakes again and turns back into a man. Then, a few years later, Hera and Zeus get into an argument (shocker) over who gets more pleasure out of sex, men or women. Zeus thinks women do, and Hera thinks men do. They decide to ask Tiresias, who had spent time as both, in order to settle their agreement. When Tiresias (probably thinking "damn it, why does this shit keep happening to me") says that women do, Hera takes it VERY well. She strikes him blind on the spot and storms off in a huff. Zeus, unable to undo what his wife did, decides to just kind of...give Tiresias the gift of prophecy and then leaves. And then later in life, Tiresias's grandson Pentheus gets torn apart by his mother and sisters who got driven mad by Dionysus. The only think Tiresias ever did wrong was hit a couple snakes, and then the rest of his life was absolutely bonkers as a result.
moral of the story: hera's a bitch. No wonder she's pretty much the villain in Hercules's story. also thanks, i never heard of this guy.
Tiresias really was just tryna walk, he ain't even do nun hera be hating for no reason
oh the poor bastard. why is he an ancient greek punching bag
So, you’re telling me that the way to have a quick and easy sex change is to hit 2 snakes “doing it” on a path… intriguing.
What did the snakes ever do to him. Just walk around them?
52:49 The immortal thing. Immortal and unkillable are different, like how Dracula is immortal but is killed in pretty much every story.
The 12 long years bit was actually a mistake by Jorge who misspoke during the recording. Now it's canon Odysseus just forgot how long he's been away from ithica
The reason: Polites kept the calendar because he knew everyones birthday.
He says "12 years or so" in Different Beast. He's lost track of the days/months at this point, but it was certainly getting closer to 13 years by that point.
If i recall, the options were Charybdis who would kill everyone or Scylla who would only take six. So i kinda understand.
Creative liberties were taken. In Epic the musical, they don't share the same strait and instead Poseidon represents the Charybdis that will kill them all if they don't go through Scylla's lair, but also there's a charybdis song coming up.
Did not know that. Thank you for informing me. 👍
Charybdis is in Epic, according to the song Charybdis(From the snippets of it, it sounds amazing), you need to avoid it, and I think that if Odysseus knew Scylla(How to go through her), he should know a bit about Charybdis too, and if he did, he most likely knew that he is not avoiding Charybdis in a ship big enough to hold 40-50 men + resources
It’s funny as both Scylla and Charybdis are seen a daughter of Posideon in one way or another. And both got turned into a monster, Scylla because of Circe and Charybdis because of Zeus.
@jamiedanielvincent6940 So the original choice between Charybdis and Scylla was a little more nuanced from my understanding. If they braved Charybdis they either all lived or died together based on knowledge, skill and a lot of luck since they would have to times things just right. (So it would be an all or nothing gamble.) Versus Scylla which guaranteed 6 would die but the majority would live.
But for better or worse Ody doesn't have that choice here since they are not neighbors in this version. But the theme is somewhat kept as Ody still could have tried doing things differently so everyone could have a chance to live even if it took longer or was more risky, but he went for the quick guarantee.
Scylla was CREATED by Circe out of spite and jealousy using Moly. The Man- turned-God Gloucous whom Circe loved fancied the Nymph Scylla over her. Circe than "poisoned" the water pool where Scylla went to bathe and she was thus transformed into the Monster we know now. I believe to some degree it was always a regret Circe had in the end.
All because the merman friendzoned Circe
That’s one version. The men who recorded the mythologies loved to make women the jealous aggressors. Not that they can’t be, but it’s a common theme in ancient written works.
Honestly depends on the version. In some versions Scylla was a fairy turned into that by Aphriadite (Poseidon's wife) and in other versions she was born that way daughter of the deep sea
The version I heard is that she was a nymph daughter of Poseidon who Circe cursed. And that's why Poseidon avoids her because he's ashamed of not being able to help his daughter.
@whitenobeard
That actually Charybdis who was cursed by Zeus.
Scylla just happens to live next to her.
Fun Fact: the line "between the rock and hard place" comes from this: between Scylla and Charybdis.
And Scylla means bitch in Greek
54:20 Honestly this sequence reminds me of how Zeus tested Ixion and punished him for his own pride--conjuring a cloud form of Hera (which Ixion proceeded to unite with) and striking Ixion down for his arrogance when he later bragged about sleeping with "her".
26:41
In the original Odyssey, Aeolus wasn't actually a god. He was the King of Aeolia, and the "Keeper of the winds." Whenever the gods commanded him to, he would release the winds and let them cause storms at sea. In the original, he was genuinely trying to help them, but decided to stop when they opened the bag and were blown back to his island.
In later versions, the gods had a betting pool going on whether Odysseus would make it home or not, which Aeolus got to be a part of. I can't remember if he bet against him or not, but he tried to influence the outcome with his gift.
Keep in mind Odysues' Pride may as will be his wife, his everything, what made him strong. If there is any god that can target and break Odyseus down it'd be Zeus as he knows exactly what makes a man tick.
To others point the morals to me is when it comes to enemys one must be ruthless, but when it comes to interactions one must know when to show kindness. Hermies is often a good shower of the power of timing and how to make the most of any situation.
Calling Poseidon’s trident triton’s spear hurts my brain so hard because that dude is literally Poseidon’s son and inherited Poseidon’s trident probably
I saw the word ‘Ruthlessness’ in that font appear on the screen and I just turned into some weird fox-bird thing. I love that animatic way too much.
Neal's has become my new favorite Ruthlessness animation/animatic
RT
I like how the animator drew one of the characters' face palming while odysseus is on the mast speaking to poseidon
Gigi's Sycilla looks like they took inspiration from Tomino's hell. Just her look reminded me of the image. It gave me goosebumps and I LOVE it
13:10 this part to me shows how kindness and being sincere has it's place, at this part of the story odysseus still has hope to bring what is left of his men home and telling Circe all he wants is to get home {with a little help from Hermes to ward against her charms} and he never broke any hospitality rules and was being truthful about his intents. just my take anyway lol
Hard agree. Most of the figures who are vocal about mercy or ruthlessness go to an extreme: Polites dies of it, Poseidon kills for it, etc. Ody also winds up suffering whenever he goes to an extreme: drowning in guilt over Astyanax left him unable to save his men from the danger of the cuckoos, then trying to be gracious to that cyclops left his men dead, and (in Epic at least) his further misguided graciousness left him teaching a "lesson" to Polyphemus that brought Poseidon down on him. Then when he switches to ruthlessness, going full monster without any mercy left, he alienates his crew into mutiny. It's only when he's shown in balance, during the Circe visit, that things go well. Likewise Circe is shown in more-or-less balance, and things go well for her. Then there was Athena, who was advocating (poorly) for balance, and if her instructions had been followed then Ody wouldn't have blindly offended Polyphemus. Even Zeus is shown prospering in balance: he shows up, fulfills his obligations, then can leave without consequence, which is not how his interactions with myth usually go.
What I love about neals aninatics is that he draws the angry gods as the giant powerful forces of nature they are instead of shrinking them down to human size
In this one Poseidon is angry and is a force of nature. In the other 2 Poseidon is more greek god-y because he shrinks and makes it petty.
@@freddieadams8435 with how Poseidon punished Odysseus in this instance I think the force of nature fits better
Eurylochus bringing his “instrument” of the crew to clash against Odysseus’ electric guitar during the fight hits the emotions hard, but is also so cool
I had no idea it was actually "row for your lives" instead of "run for your lives." That makes a bit more sense, but I thought "run" also made sense in a metaphorical way.
Jorge did say it's row, but finds it funny the idea that he screams "Run!" And they are just running in a circle on the ship.
Odysseus: "PLEASE dont make me do this...!"
Zeus: "lol. Lmao, even."
"He's not making this so much more sufferable than the actual Odyssey"
*realises Jorge would absolutely do that*
"This is fine"
8:05 i think the implication for why he didn't use the bag of winds at first is that it wouldn't save the entire fleet, so once the rest of the fleet is destroyed he immediately uses.
10:11 The way the chromatic change shows they BOTH don't want this, but Odysseus has his eyes closed to dissasociate while Circe has them open to use this act is AMAZING.
I love the detail of Odysseus closing his eyes as his men approach to hide away from the guilt but at the VERY last moment opens them and looks them in the eyes as he faces the consequences of his choice
I think poseidon was going to kill him anyways because he say "the line between naivity and hoppefullness is almost invisible". I see it as if he had said "you really tough I would forgive you? You are so naive"
exactly my take away. people put too much stock in what oddyseus is saying or how he's portrayed, when the reality is that Poseidon doesn't actually CARE, he already decided from the get go what he was gonna do because no apology was gonna sate his anger at the sheer GALL of this MORTAL to maim one of HIS possessions.
The thing I love about Neil’s animations is they make Zeus and Poseidon feel like gods and forces of nature. Them looming over Odysseus and the crew, Zeus leaning on a mountain and Poseidon pulling himself up on the water like it’s solid ground is just perfect
44:49 "Technically" Eurylochus is responsible for those five hundred dead, because if he had trusted his friend, who is his captain and also the King, all those people who were killed by Poseidon would have survived, and would be home now.
Before anybody says "But Poseidon would attack Ithaca" he couldn't have, it is a belief in mythology that a god can't interfere with another gods doing, so Aeolus helping Odysseus would make it to where Poseidon can't attack them, as long as 1 god is on Ody's side, he's safe from Poseidon, so if he gets Aeolus to keep him safe, or (somehow) reconnects with Athena, he's good
(I only know Epic when it comes to mythology, my cousin who is a huge mythology fan told me this when I brought her into Epic, so tell me if she was mistaken)
@@CORBIN2263YT I think you're right, because I think that if they didn’t open that bag of winds, the goddess of the winds would still be on Odysseus’s side, but since he couldn’t keep that deal, Odysseus is once again without god’s protection.
... or someone else would have opened the bag
@@draeonic Yes, but we know that he opened it, because he himself admitted it.
@@PetarSon oh he definitely did, but we can't say for sure they're be safe in Ithaca if he hadn't. He's the voice of the crew; he wasn't the only one who wanted that bag opened
"A picture is worth a thousand words" like you said the animations add so much context each animation tells a new story even though it is the same song 😁
23:48 right around here in the animation where he pulls his hair he is showing her his ear showing it is plugged he is giving her a chance to call off her sisters
One last concession to Polites' philosophy of compassion before he adopts ruthlessness. Compassion, but with wisdom - the type Circe showed him in the end. And what gives him the power to give in to ruthlessness, both here and later, was Penelope - all his power.
Even if that wasn't Ximena's explicit intention with the ear tuck, nice catch!
Edit: The sirens actually calling off the attack after Odysseus got the information might have changed the encounter with Scylla. Her song starts with Scylla as Odysseus' shoulder devil, but with Odysseus not having _needed_ to spill blood yet, he might not be as willing to sacrifice his men. Her line of "we are the same, you and I" would clash with his sensibilities, since his personal promise in Monster has yet to snowball into actual violence, only posturing. She also wouldn't be paralleling what Odysseus did to the sirens - "drown in your sorrow and tears, choke on your blood and your fears, bleed till you've run out of years" and "die in the blood that you bathe." Instead of reaffirming what Odysseus 'knows' about himself now, it would have hit him much harder - and who knows, maybe Eurylochus would be able to see a kindred spirit in Odysseus feeling visceral regret, rather than a cold certainty, at his latest "betrayal".
16:25 There's multiple ways you can take nearly every part here:
Song of past romance: (Past) Obviously Penelope vs (Future) the song Suffering
Sacrifice of man/men: (Past) The baby / Polites vs (Future) Scylla and the six torches/lives he pays
Portrayals of betrayal: (Past) Luck Runs Out where Eurylochus and the crew start to question Oddyseus leading into Keep Your Friends Close, where they betray him with opening the wind bag vs (Future) Scylla again, Odysseus betraying the crew's trust by sacrificing them AND Mutiny, where the crew obviously turn against their captain
A brother's final stand: This one I always felt would be before the betrayal but my thoughts are: (Past) Either Luck Runs Out as he takes a stand and questions his captain or Puppeteer vs (Future) Obviously Mutiny too (like betrayal), or a reference to Thunderbringer depending on interpretation. I've seen some animatics where the crew rush Odysseus after his choice - making their final stand - and Eurylochus is either joining or accepting his fate.
I absolutely love No Longer You and Ximena's animatic for it.
The last one could also be a symbolic brother and be about Polites' death hence FINAL stand or Eurylochus' in Thunder Bringer.
I don't think its about ruthlessness being merci
its about Humility, He lost 6 man to Cyclops because he thought he outwitted him, he lost over 550 man because he couldn't resist bragging to cyclops or to apologise to Poseidon. He lost the rest after keeping his crew in the dark and using them as pawns. It's lack of trust and hubris that killed his man. The one time he showed humility was with Circe.
Pride is a damsel in distress, and Zeus quite literally undress it in front of him.
Yessss Ximena’s No Longer You animatic is the best one in my opinion (all of their animatics are amazing tbh), they’re really talented 🔥
Yes, absolutely! It's my favourite one by a landslide!
A comment I saw on the Ruthlessness animatic where Posiedon has a water arm goes something like "Posideon here is disabled, so he understands the hardship of disability, and can only cope with that because of being a god. And Odysseus has just disabled his son, in a much more difficult way to navigate" and that idea stuck with me. Posideon is angry that Ody has put his son in the same situation he's in, arguably a worse poition, instead of outright killing Polyphemus and sparing him the agony, showing mercy.
Little trick for Eurylochus. Its pronounced "You really cuss"
So some context for the Monster April Fools one- The Underworld Saga, which ends with the song Monster, was released in April. On April 1st, Jorge posted a video as a joke where he said that Monster had to be cut from the musical because it was too dark and that this was the "new version".
You're wrong about the message of the musical. The whole point of the musical isn't that you need to be ruthless, but that you need a healthy balance of ruthlessness and mercy. Circe is just the first time that message has actually shone through.
Odysseus' major character flaw is that he doesn't do things by half. It's ALWAYS one extreme or the other with him. Monster is him choosing to stick with the "monster" that Athena wanted him to be. A warrior of the mind. Ruthless to enemies. Good to his friends. Willing to make whatever sacrifices necessary. Pragmatic.
He's not a glass half-full or half empty, he's a glass full full guy.
@@freddieadams8435 glass overflowing, even 😂
Ximena and Gigi have my favorite versions of Scylla but the first version of thunderbringer I saw was from nael, honestly both their interpretations of Scylla are probably my favorite (Scylla anim). (Oh and one more recommendation is krieo's version of no longer you)
Poseidon would not have stood for just Odysseus’s death. Back then there was a thing where if a leader did a wrong then the whole people were guilty. This is why Poseidon didn’t just kill Odysseus.
Jorge said that Ruthelessness is the main theme of the story and it's balance against kindness.
So I think the kindness of Circe is supposed to show us, that kindness can be used to achieve your goals as well and not just ruthelessness. But because of the enemies Odysseus faces, he is slowly being pushed further and further into the Ruthelessness and further away of the kindness he could show.
...also, I think that far too few are pointing out, that his crew were the first who ebtrayed him, by opening the bag of winds. They say _how can we trust you now_ while we literally have the guy who was part of the bag opening being their new "running mate"...
Odysseus was wrong, but so were the rest as well. He is still in the end of the day a commander of soldiers and commanders have sometimes to sacrifice men, to win the war. Also, while he did do the stupid by revealing his real name, in the end of the day he isn't the guy who killed the rest of his crew. And if his crew hadn't opened the bag, they would have safely returned home, so... really, all are at fault.
I think they didn't trust him because he froze in the fight against the Cyclops
Animatics I hadn't seen:
Neal Illustrator's Ruthlesness
Ximena Natzel's Different Beast
gigi's Scylla (though I was planning to)
Also, had no clue Eurylochus was actually Odysseus' brother, that's wild!
Well, brother in law. I actually have no idea how Odysseus sister reacted when he got back. 🤔
@@Airier Yeah ik just didn't care to specify in law. And god it's gonna be so interesting to see how the musical's version is gonna end in Ithaca, it's gonna be heartbreaking for sure.
I say you don't need to be on any side. These are morally grey characters. I love them all anyways. The musical is all about "How far would you be willing to go to achieve your goal?"
Neals depiction of Zeus is absolutely perfect to me and is my personal favourite, Zeus shows no bloodlust or rage but just pure smugness and pride as he purposely toys with mortals lives.
Odysseus and his crew for him isn't worth taking seriously or being enraged by their actions, so instead he plays around and enjoys himself being boastful about himself before even talking to Odysseus. How he talks about all it takes is for him to apply all the pressure as for Zeus there is no *NO* for him, he does what he likes with nobody to answer him no.
Zeus purposely stays giant/huge whilst looming over them, he doesn't bother lowering himself to their level and wants them to see the King of the Gods in all his glory. With him only ever lowering himself when making Odysseus choose which from what we see isn't out of respect but to savour the reaction of Odysseus in making the choice.
He gleefully grins once Odysseus gives him the thing he wants then proceeds to dance whilst he prepares to kill off the crew.
Neals Zeus is what I imagine when listening to this song
I listened to everything on spotify after watching all the animatics I could find, and that changed my interpretation of some songs too. For instance, in the beginning of Puppeteer, Odysseus dismissing Eurylochus sounds like he actually knew already that he was the one who opened the bag.
1:01:45 yeah this part hits hard the burden of leadership is heavy indeed i have seen NCO's and officers break down when they think no one is looking, survivor's guilt too all he wanted was to get him and his men home..........man the feeling sucks.
I hadn't seen that version of Ruthlessness. It was like watching it all over again for the first time but with a friend who was just as geeked out as me😂 😂😂😂😂
The problem with trying to feed sirens to Scylla to pass is that according to mythology (and the linguistics involved), she very specifically only eats men.
Also ironically, Scylla's singing is multifaceted in the same way Tiresias' was, though in this case what she's singing applies to both Odysseus and Eurylochus in different ways. Odysseus is the more obvious one, but the words also comment on how Eurylochus' actions have eroded what faith Odysseus has kept in him and confirming that he was the one who opened the wind bag when they were within sight of Ithaca and caused the storm to carry them to Laestrygonians and Poseidon severs what remained. In some way, that also explains why Odysseus was so surprised that the whole remaining crew turned on him in mutiny instead of it being just Eurylochus - he didn't think they'd follow the man who delivered 550 men to Poseidon to be killed and prevented them all from getting home.
The prophet is most likely Tiresias, and when he died, he was blind. (don't remember how nor when).
Hera being salty he sided with zeus in a argument.
Something that makes Zeus way scarier to me than Poseidon is his thing about giving a choice or a chance when really, whatever he wants to happen is what's gonna happen. Poseidon's just gonna kill you, you piss him off, he's just gonna kill you, or in Ody's case, let him live to make him suffer more. Zeus is like "I'll give you a choice, but I already know what it'll be."
imo the 'pride is a damsel in distress' part and all that in thunderbringer is more metaphor than literal; like its Zeus relishing in his power as a god and how the pride and hubris of man always falls short and now he gets to be the direct consequence of said pride; and we all know how Zeus treats ladies so.... We know hes happily enjoying this process of tearing apart Odysseus pride and watching him 'squirm' yk? its nasty- but also genius wordplay for Zeus' part.
For the Different Beasts animatic, the head may have been a better option...if they wanted a quick death. Cut in half, they're not only bleeding to death but they can't breathe if they can't swim. The cruelty was the point.
Yeah, Odysseus jumped straight past ruthlessness and into cruelty on that one
It should be mentioned that what Odysseus says to Poseidon ISN'T AN POLOGY, it's a JUSTIFICATION, he explains why he did it (not an apology) and he claims he "took no pleasure in his pain" (also not an apology, and probably bulls*t)
"we only wanted to escape" (with the sheep)
The man is incapable of giving a proper apology.
Neal's thunderbringer gets better every time i watch it, i swear
29:01 they would be unable to swim back up, so essentially they would drown while they bleed out ( i think they need to eventually come up for air )
I flippin love your reactions SO much. Your musings and interpretations are always so thought out, emotion and thought provoking. ❤
You keep saying that the decision in Thunder Bringer is because the gods "find it funny to make you choose" but I interpret it differently. Zeus sees himself as a fatherly figure scolding Odysseus, like an adult punishing a child for throwing a tantrum. "Either I take your crew away or you go to bed without dinner." To him it's just a lesson it's his job to teach, but he's so removed from the morality of a human being that he doesn't realise or care about how horrific it is from a human perspective.
Regarding how he was able to talk things out with Circe, Ive heard that Jorge said that ruthlessness is one of the main themes and messages of the musical, but not on its own. The point is not to only be merciful or to only be ruthless, its to learn that you need both and the knowledge of when to apply it.
Odysseus starts off with that balance, but then when Polites dies, he chooses to live his legacy by being merciful all the time, which comes to bite him in the ass in the form of the cyclops and poseidon.
Then he becomes the monster and flips all the way to becoming only ruthless, and thats also not a good thing because it caused a mutiny.
The issue with Odysseus isnt his mercy or his lack of it, its his pride. His pride causes him to believe that any thought process he goes on or any choice he makes should be followed through 100% of the way, when realistically he only needs like 60% follow through. He needs to be merciful to the cyclops, but not enough that he leaves him alive, just enough to give him a quick death. He needs to be ruthless to the sirens, but not so ruthless that he kills them through slow, torturous methods when he can kill them quickly. In a sea of mistakes he's made so far, he made the correct choice of trying to talk things out with Circe because mercy was the smartest thing to do in that situation
LET'S GOOOO I love watching you react to all the different animatics!
I personally hadn't seen a lot of the ones from the previous reaction, and I imagine I will have a similar experience in this one.
30:51 It's not just that he knows what's about to happen. It's that he knows they're going into Scylla's Lair. NO ONE ELSE on the crew knows that. He's literally the only one who "heard" the Siren say that, and then he told no one else about it.
As if this song needed to get any darker. 😂
As I saw on another reaction... But how did the men heard him about cutting the tails if they were waxed?
@@fabbius0180 For all we know, he led by example. That, or he just gave the order loud enough to where they could hear it. We don't know for sure.
@@fabbius0180charades
I love that you doing alternative animatics if you enjoy it, please do more and don’t forget that wisdom saga comes out next week August 30, though it is only the audio
28:30 heres my theory bc im not sure if its true
Tw: mention of sa
So zeus says "her" i think its refers to Odysseus, let me explain the start first, "pride is a damsel in distress" which means a women in distress, "hiding away where only i can undress her" which means zeus use to sa people, "but in the end its all the same once i put all the pressure" heres the explanation with an example: ur asking ur friend to do something that they dont wanna do but u will force them to, this whole part is about zeus talking about sa, well when he says "her" he means odyseuss, he didnt do sa to odyseuss and wont do sa to odyseuss he just says it that way because zeus is known for sa.
Another theory that might be wrong 28:30
Shen he told Odysseus "if i were to make u choose life of ur men and crew or ur own, why do i think they'd lose?" Zeus already gave him the answer, he said "if" but then later in 28:30 he asked him to choose the lifes of his crew or him, which means that he wants Odysseus to sacrafice his men, even if they all are ganna die
I highly recommend checking out the official livestream when The Wisdom Saga drops.
They're always a good time, feature lyrics and captions that explain what's going on during the songs, and also put some spotlights on animators in the community who work alongside Jorge to do small illustrations and animatics here and there. The animatics are commissioned and directed by him, and also feature his own take on the character designs, which are based heavily on their singers.
They die because of his wit but they also LIVED because of it
Thank you for this reaction it was awesome! And yes I did draw the sun god as Apollo because I assumed that the "sun god" was referring to Apollo. I forgot that Helios also had cows and considering Apollo does appear in a future song I just thought it would be Apollo here😅. And also the "Animal deat" was supposed to be "Animal DEATH". Spelling mistake I noticed only after I posted😂
Yeah, I did to. It's even worse because Apollo also has cows. Hermes steals them as a baby.
Sorry beforehand if you already know this.
They are TONS of music motifs for almost every character and to signal when something is going to happen. For example, Penelope's motif is a viola. Just by the music alone we can tell that the siren is not Penelope because a viola isn't present at all in Suffering, and some of the instruments used are electric. The humans in Epic usually just have acoustic instruments or non electrical ones so hearing these instruments definitely seems off in the first time hearing the song. But the siren does copy a mallet in the song (Polites' music motif! Ouch), and copies other song motifs throughout Suffering. That's just one of so many other interesting facts about the music motifs, Jorge put lots of work and thought into these! I've been working on a playlist that includes all of the yt shorts that talk about motifs and background information called Epic Lore but I'm still working on it.
fun fact: in the odyssey scylla actually is the lesser evil, because her lair is just out of reach of charybdis, ¿i might be wrong, but i think there is a version in she snacht the sailor while they are trying to manuver around charybdis whirpools? one must ask themselves if that means the crew realise that they being devoured while in a desperate attemp to not capsise from rough waters or just when they thought they were out of danger
I just realized...if he didn't kill the mermaids Odysseus may have had the chance to use them as fish food for Scylla instead of his men. But this man is now *RUTHLESS* and not the *WARRIOR OF THE MIND* like in the past.
28:38
Nope. Scylla only eats humans
@@Schinak I don't think so, It says that Scylla eats sailors or those near its territory, but it doesn't mean that it's exclusively humans. I'm pretty sure Scylla is not picky about the food, as long as it's food.
thing with all animatics is, Jorge provides the reference videos, of how he sees what's happens during songs visually
I am really curious to see if he watched animatics to "unreleased" songs in production "Dangerous" or "Get in the Water". Some have such amazing visuals on them.
I think the lesson might be "be carefull Who you show mercy"? Circe is not a god, she has a more Human side to her.
But when you do it with the Gods, they get angry?
"I'd rather die at sea, with one deep gulp of death, than die by inches on this desolate island here." Eurylochus knew exactly what would happen if he killed the cattle, in fact he was counting on it. They've been at sea for YEARS at this point, facing loss after loss after loss and he's *done*. They're never going home, and better to die swiftly to an angry god than slowly to whatever fresh horror comes next
I always figured Poseidon's issue with Odysseus's apology is that Odysseus ... doesn't actually apologize. Nothing he says is actually an apology. I mean, I don't think he's LYING; he didn't take pleasure in the cyclops's pain because at that point he wasn't really taking pleasure in anything, and since they walked into the cave without knowing the cyclops was there, it's not like they waltzed in planning to do it--they did only hurt the cyclops because the cyclops decided 'murder for you, murder for your friends' was the proper response to 'you killed my pet sheep.' But Odysseus doesn't actually apologize; he offers a justification, and that is not what Poseidon told him to do. Poseidon told him to *apologize*.
It wouldn't have mattered. Hence the line about niavety being like right after. Poseidon didn't care.
WISDOM SAGA IS OUTTT !!!!
I think the main message to take from Epic as it is at the moment is you need to be a good middle ground of being kind and ruthless. Ody actually starts in this position right at the start of the musical. He then goes too far to kindness and in some ways naivety and after ruthlessness goes back to the middle ground in a lot of ways. He then goes way over the deep end in underworld to full monster. Athena's entire thing of being a warrior of the mind is that middle ground, where you don't kill for killing sake but to protect people without being cruel to your enemies.
There are a lot of counterpoints with the series, but it also highlights Odysseus making the mistakes of being mortal and emotional versus Athena's teachings. If he had stuck to Athena's teachings, if he had remained a pragmatic Warrior of the Mind and made the best choices, nothing would have played out the way it did. And I just realized that "Thunder Bringer" and "Horse and the Infant"/"Just a Man" are parallels in Odysseus' narrative, in one he saves his men and nation while in the other he sacrifices his men out of the desire to save himself, and both are based around getting home to Penelope and Telemachus.
I've always thought it'd be Apollo as the Sun God mentioned, because he has sacred cows, and Zeus is considered his father. Thus why Zeus shows up in the song following Mutiny
I feel like how apollo acts in god games proves it was helios cause apollo doesn't bring the cows up during his part
I would love a stage version, but I also think an animated movie/series would help when in comes to the gods, the monsters and the spectacle.
I say to just cut right down the middle on this one and get both. 😁
MydnyteRaven has made the first two saga's into this animated concept of a stage play.
In the other Mutiny you saw, my take is that cow wasn't still alive but hurt. That cow was dead, and Helios was looking through its dead eye to see who was responsible for killing it.
I don't see many people talking about it here, but the voices of the dead in the final part of the song are talking about future events and/or songs coming up in the future. The thing is.. the voices are really distorted.
SPOILERS ABOUT THE SENTENCES SAID! IF YOU DON'T WANT TO KNOW DO NOT READ BELOW THIS!
It extends to the events of the thunder saga and others not released yet.
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The dead sing:
" Siren Song"
"Scylla Throat"
"Mutiny"
"Lighting Bolt"
"Wirlpool, Poseidon"
"Kill all the Suitors for love"
Hope that helps! ❤
Helios' first wife is Rhodes, one of Poseidon's immortal daughters. When he got together with Perseis, he kicked her out of the Sun Palace despite it being based on /her/ island. And even then, Helios' mythological one true love is a mortal woman. However, since Helios and Rhodes' wedding is officiated by Hera, it can be viewed by Divine Law that Helios and Perseis are not legally together.
One of the things that gets me with Odysseus apologizing to Poseidon is that he never actually apologized. He tried to talk himself out of the situation, making excuses. He said they did it to disarm him, that they didn't take pleasure in it, that they meant no harm, that they just wanted to escape. Not once did he actually apologize for making the Polyphemus suffer.
Not that it mattered anyway. Poseidon's line of "The line between naivete and hopefulness is almost invisible" makes me think he never intended to let Odysseus go. Whether he actually apologized or not. It sounded like he was only pointing out to Odysseus that there was no talking his way out of the trouble he got himself into.
What I believe about the cut off their tails part is siren are mammals like whales and whales need to cut up after awhile to breathe or they drown even with gills. So when they threw them back in the water they would drown from not being able to swim back up, but that's just my belief
I really liked your thoughts on the aprils fools one in particularly
Don't get me wrong - Zeus is definitely unbearably smug and smarmy in this.
But from the beginning part of Odysseus's character has been his pride and hubris - when zeus tells him to make the first choice, he starts brainstorming ways out of it ("I could raise him as my own-") . When Athena tells him what the "wise" choice is he tells her "no". When the cyclops is blinded he lets hubris get the better of him, and then when Poseidon asks for an apology he gives a slippery excuse rather than a sincere one, and on top of that escapes the conversation through more trickery. Half his character is "I can spin this to go my way" which - while trickster heros are great, arrogance is dangerous. I think a large part of this in Thunder Bringer is Zeus as King of Gods saying "I'm going to strip you of that pride and arrogance" regarding his constant assumption he can just "outplay" everyone/dieties especially.
YOOO I'm so glad to see Neal Illustrator's videos here because I literally just commented on a previous one about their animatics being my favorite.
42:32 RIP eyepatch guy