For those of us in cold winter climates [and in asinine defensive round limiting legal environments], the Underwood Extreme defender seems to be an excellent year round choice due to the need to penetrate clothing and still be able to create enough tissue disruption to produce an effective stop of an attack. I live in the Chicago area and this is my primary defensive bullet.
I live in Texas, and I carry this in my 9mm EDC and my .380 car gun. I was so impressed with it when I see videos on ballistic tests that I had to have it.
@Kevin Hart Ok I would generally agree. However to say you have to “hit a 6” disk” isn’t really accurate (depends on factors). The cavitation even at 800 fps is enough to cause remote wounding to nearby tissues. So really more like 8-10”. Also when charging the bear is essentially “inline with its spine. So while yeah you may not hit directly there’s plenty of bones shards and disruption that could devastate the nervous system. Then you seem to be accusing me of things I didn’t say. I never said anything suggesting a handgun is equal to long gun fir near defense. I also never said anything about dogs? I also never advocated .45 calibers to be significantly bigger than .35 with regard to terminal ballistics on large dangerous game. I never suggested anything I’d equal to a 20 gauge. I think you may have confused me with several other people or something? I’m confused? I only said that you can get .357 equivalent penetration out of 9x19 using 115 extreme penetrators. I stand beside that one front what I’ve seen in testing.
Both this and the Top 10 No-Go videos were great, and I'm glad I found your channel. It's always good to hear someone with actual knowledge and experience teach what they know, and I learned a lot. I've been carrying the Sig V-Crown 115gr in my CZ P-01, but I'm now switching over to the Hornady Critical Defense. It's doubtful I'll ever need to punch through auto glass or metal, so I just need a bad-guy-stopper in my EDC. Thanks for your videos, and I'm a new subscriber!
Great Video Thank you. You are very knowledgeable. Here in South Africa we have plenty of action. Some guys like the fancy expanding hollow point ammo. I carry a Glock 17 and carry 4 Hollow points for concealed carry.Sometimes Black Tallons ,Ranger or Hornady Critical Duty in case i have to shoot someone up close and personal in a crowded place and wànt to avoid collateral damage as much as possible. . The rest of the magazine is 115gr FMJ. The 34 shot mags that I carry in the Car are all filled with 9mm Nato Bal 124 gl or 115 grain Pmp or Magtec or S&B . Penetration and Shot placement is what is a priority for our situation as there are usually extended firefights involved. I have seen plejty criminals that have been taken out with 9mm fmj . FMJ is a great round. Always feeds and digs deep after passing through glass,sheet metal,wood,clothing etc. As you say bullets do strange things when they hit liquid . I have seen guys live after being shot with 5.56 or7.62x39 etc yet go down instantly from 38Special or other "weak" round. To many variables and scenarios involved. Just saying don't think fmj is just practice or range amunition.
Might I suggest a flat point fmj like underwood 124+p FMJ. The flat point helps maintain straight line penetration through fluid and bone. It's why most bear or dangerous animal rounds are truncated or a large flat metplat (Nose).
I usually carry a 1911. I stoke my carry guns and 45 PCC rifles with 450 SMC. I use Berry's 185 gr HP bullets, and handload them to about 1400 fps. Excellent performance from them.
@@KennyP.Gemstone civilians can buy them as "contract overrun" or "LE trade-in" or whatever bullshit wording the shop uses, but they will be out of spec in some way. The good stuff never leaves the agency it was originally sold to. If you want true LE grade ammunition you have to prove you are an LE official.
That way there we can actually see the damage each one of your favorite rounds does. Maybe even put some clothing or other light obstacles you may encounter out there in the wild, in front of the ballistic gel. I always like to see for myself. I carry Underwood 90 grain +P+ in most of my carry guns. Sometimes I run the Hornaday critical defense or critical duty in +P also. I'd say those are my favorite rounds, and in that order. The tests I've seen with those rounds are impressive to say the least!!
I started all this over 10 years ago mixing simtest and ordinance gel because I'm a nerd and I wanted the data never Eben crossed my mind to video it because that wasn't what I was after and I had no desire to make a youtube. That said om working on getting a camera setup and stuff since the channel took off and will film them going forward. Not sure how I'm gonna film the rifle loads when I shoot gel at 2 to 600 yards but that's a bridge for another day
@@unclefreedom213 No worries brother, glad you plan on doing some future videos showing the results in ballistic gel. I bet your channel will really take off after you do a few videos like that. Maybe even title them like "My top ten favorite defense rounds, with the ballistic gel test results". Or something along that line. I just found your channel today, and these top ten best and worst defensive round videos is what drew me in. I'm always curious what other gun guys opinions are on defensive ammo. And it's especially interesting to me when I see the results. Glad your already considering making videos like that! I will definitely watch them when you do!!😎🇺🇸🇺🇸🦅🦅👊👊
With all the testing he said he did I was a bit shocked to know that he doesn't have any. I was wanting to see the results as well so I mentioned it and the reply was something like your just going to see a bullet hit gel. He said he did metal, drywall, plywood, and car windshields with almost all of them. He also said we but was not specific. I think that much testing is very valuable and would put him on a whole other level. So I'm a bit disappointed but I told him to keep on trucking and hope to see it in the future.
I mainly carry Underwood XD line. In my cc gun, I run the plus p plus 68 gr and 90 gr in my duty size 9mm. And the 135 gr supers in my 45. Great stuff!
Outstanding info !! My dept runs Crit Duty 9mm 135gr +P(I'm retired now). So it for my LESO I listed it as my carry / qual ammunition. Now for my Sig 320 Compact 45acp I'm running Win Ranger T 230gr +P and all my 45acp pistols.
Personally I carry HST, but I don't actually use the 124+p, although I have some. I usually stick to 124gr standard pressure in the micro short barreled 9's (to me the extra recoil isnt worth the minuscule gain in velocity and it actually penetrates less). I also prefer the 147gr standard pressure in my 4 inch + barrels and full size bedside pistol (because 147gr is naturally subsonic). I do wish Federal STILL made the 147gr +P's AND I wish they still had the old design with a single cannelure instead of the newer double cannelured stuff.
I have harvested a big buck using a 45acp 230grain xtp (hot hand loads) at 40yards. Definitely does it job. I do not hesitate to use that load as a carry round.
The XTP bullet is an exceptional projectile!! I like it much more than HST. Thank you for your Military service and putting your life on the line every day as a Police officer. I assume that is what you ment when you mentioned duty.
Just me but I would never recommend FMJ in defensive situations where you are carrying anything bigger than a .32. I would just pick a solid barrier round that works either way. Just my thoughts. Thank you for the kind words. I'm southern so we tend not to mix words and be overly blunt.
Great choices! My duty ammo is the Federal HST. This stuff has performed extremely well, in every test I’ve seen. Very reliable stuff. That being said, I carry the Underwood Extreme Defense 68gr. +P in all of my off duty weapons. 1,800fps out of a 4” barrel, and somewhere around 2,600fps in a PCC!!! Amazing stuff. By your standards, theoretically, this will create a hydrostatic shock. Of course, I value and welcome, your opinion, or personal experiences with this round.
Came across your Not To Carry video, and then took a look at this one. Most of the stuff I keep a box of happen to be on your Carry list. I am a little surprised regarding the Hornady XTP round. I've been looking at using it in a reload for bulking up on HPs but was reading several reviews disparaging the bullet design. But most of those were a bit older reviews. Been looking for a round to replicate through reloading for bulk storage (not EDC). Mostly been considering the Speer GD or Hornady XTP bullets as they are readily available so could be loaded at considerably less than $1+/rnd. Might have to take a look at the LH Xtremes. I don't see them often in the stores and it's a real pain to order on internet where I'm at.
Nice. I carry 124gr +P HST or Gold Dot in all my defensive guns save one. I occasionally carry a Glock 42 .380 when I’m running. I’m that .380 I use Underwood loaded with those Lehigh Extreme Defender bullets. I’ve got a couple old boxes of the OG Black Talon in .45acp that my uncle gave me after he retired from duty that I just keep because it’s cool.
Really great videos brother, I appreciate the no BS assessment. Its a nice change to alot of other channels. You have a subscriber and ill make sure to tell my friends.
My 3 go-to hollow points are HST, Gold Dot, and Federal Punch. My fmj for practice are usually Blaser Brass because they are usually 14.95 for 50 at Academy.
That punch is super surprising for an inexpensive as they are they perform quite well and just missed making my top 10. I have had some issues with blazer brass itself not the round but reloading the brass has presented issues to me withnit being brittle.
@thelurker9472 do a Google search for able ammo Huntsville Tx. I'm about 40 minutes away from there, and they have a pretty good selection. Gold Dots are a little pricey, especially the 50 rnd box.
Finally! Someone singing the praises of the round i carry in my EDC, the Underwood loaded LeHigh Xtreme Defender! I have loved everything about this round since i saw ballistic tests here on TH-cam. It's kind of expensive, but how much is my life worth?...
Great video about all the brands of barrier defeating, 9mm, defensive pistol ammo, Uncle Freedom! Very impressive knowledge U have acquired! Also it was good to hear that Paul Harrell was right on, with his long time use, of Remington Green an White box pistol ammo ! 😄😆
I use Underwood Extreme Defender in my 380s and 9mm. In my really light 380s (LCP Max) I will use the Lehigh loading. It's the only round I'll use in my 380s. With nerve damage in both hands, I often have to carry only a 380. At 71 I had to do a lot of video research to find what seemed to be best for me. I do trust the Underwood Extreme Defender in 380. I do have some Fort Scott TUI 9mm rounds. My main 9mm is the S&W Equalizer which allows me to fire 9mm easily in spite of the nerve damage in my hands. That EZ technology allowed me to start spending real time shooting 9mm rounds.
I run Critical Duty 124 +p in my G17 and absolutely love the performance. I watched your other top 10 video and you were spot on with everything you said, i'll be sure to subscribe to you once i finish this vide. Keep up the great work!
.451” Xtreme defender 190gr over 7.8gr ram shot true blue is my carry ammo. Zips good and does what it’s supposed to in gel tests. In northern states where carharts and other heavy warm clothing is normal, that’s why I I chose it as my carry bullet.
here in europe its mostly ball ammo, but i got some smurfs from a friend of mine and like how they perform(smurfs as in federal syntech).I will look to get some more
I been interested in the fluted and solid bullets coming out. Many of the fluted bullets are much lighter than standard defense rounds but travel much faster. Have you thought about reviewing those? I understand the rounds you reviewed as they are typical of law enforcement ammo.
I picked up the free floated hand guard version earlier this year. Put a Geissele SDC trigger in it, and a Primary Arms SLX 1-6 gen 3 on top. Haven't gotten to any kind of distance, but at the indoor range, the whole magazine makes one ragged hole. Can't wait to get to an outdoor range. Stay safe out there! My uncle never thought anything bad could happen, until John Hinkley shot him in the neck. Love your content!
@unclefreedom213 especially for the money. All those features, plus glass that's hitting way above it's class, for under $300? And I like the chevron aim point. I only have around 600 rounds through it, but there hasn't been as much as a hiccup. Keep doing what you do, and again, be safe out there!
I was surprised to not see Corbon mentioned on this list, or your no-go list. Back in the day, it was the shit. I have tested it extensively in ballistic gel and dummies, clothed and bare, and it always performs excellent. I personally have over 1000 boxes of 115 gr +P and 125 gr +P 9mm Corbon. And at our bug out compound, we probably have over 10,000 boxes of them. What are your thoughts on Corbon?
Hey brother. Just stumbled upon your channel and I watched the video from start to finish.. unfortunately I didn't see my EDC carry ammo on your list. I was advised by the guys at my range to carry the Hornandy American Gunnar 124+P.. wondering if you've ever tried those out? If you have, and don't recommend them, I can always switch to the Critical Defense.. if you have tried it out, please share any information with me please. I'm a new CPL carrier and want to make sure I'm using legit ammo! Thanks in advance
How much do police departments get HSTs and Gold Dots for? $0.57 for 124 grain +P HSTs and $0.60 for 124 grain +P Gold Dots are as cheap as I can find them as a civi.
Great information! I have been hesitant to trust the Underwood Xtreme Defense rounds as my primary carry rounds, as they looked too much like "gimmick" rounds (cough - DRT / RIP - cough). I currently carry HSTs in 124-gr in my CZ P01 and in 147-gr in my Hellcat. Based partially on your review, and that of Tools and Targets, I've decided to switch to Blue Line ammo using the 90-gr Lehigh Xtreme Defender in 90-gr+P. I am also interested in the 68-gr Xtreme Defender, but will wait until I can test it using a ballistic pendulum before I go to that light a bullet. Thanks, and keep up the great work! 👍👍👍
Nice ! Gary Griffiths I wasn't familiar with Blue line ammo but I will be working up an order for them now. I see their using those newer Forged alum/stainless cases too! Those things are incredible for reloaders . I watched them reload the same 9mm +P and .223 rounds and shoot them like 50 times or so! It was incredible! Plus you can pick up your spent cases with a roller magnet! They use a slightly modified sizing die to push the case back off the die with a spring loaded plunger because the case is so much stronger than brass. Other than that its about the same as normal reloading. I was looking for some Xtreme Defenders for my newly acquired .380 Ruger Security pistol I just bought. I don't trust the expanding rounds to go deep enough in the weaker 380, even tho Federal passed the FBI test protocol with their .380ACP HST "Deep" ammo back in 2020. It was done with a load that is made just for LEO, and is loaded slightly hotter than their regular "deep" HST 380 (facepalm) It needs to be available to all of us!
@@PatriotPaulUSA FWIW, I tried some Underwood .380 xtreme defender ammo several years ago when I was primarily carrying a Ruger LCP. It was CONSIDERABLY hotter than anything else I used, including the Cor-Bon HPs that were my primary carry rounds.
@The Truth That's the new 9mm right 3 and half barrel is 8 round cap correct? if so I would ask ypuis barrier penetration important to you or are you looking at this like a never have to shoot through a barrier gun. If barrier penetration is important I would say the critical duty 124gr+p or honestly the 90gr extreme defender loading from underwood. The 90 grain functions flawlessly even in Plain gel, doesn't depend on expansion and will be milder in the recoil game. Perfect fir something in a lighter slimmer handgun. The 124+p critical duty load will be snappy out of the lighter gun but will achieve favorable results even through compound angle auto glass with solid penetration in the 12 to 16 inch range out of handguns I've fired with similar barrel length. If barriers are of no concern to you and your main value is it dumping energy and be more comfortable to accurately fire quick follow ups I would go to the Critical defense 115 gr from Hornady. It'll give you optimal penetration in the 9 to 12 inch range greatly reducing you over penetration risk all while driving deep enough to hit vitals out of the smaller gun. Critical defense will also lessen the flash seen from the shorter barrel and smaller gun due to the powder blend which can and will save you night vision in a defensive application. You lose barrier capability but if you don't need it you don't need it. If you can't find those and budget is of concern I've also had great success from shorter barrels firing the Federal 138gr Syntech Defense as well as the Federak Punch 124gr offering. The syntech isn't that snappy and has low flash when firing smaller guns. You won't risk over penetration with either of those but neither have solid barrier performance outside of the odd plywood or sheetrock and even then it can be marginal. Keeping in mind neither if them were purpose built for barriers they make a solid economic option that would allow you to get some training in on your carry load and throughly vet them in your firearm. Hope this helped and thanks for giving me a question that let's me nerd out a bit.
@@unclefreedom213 Well, YT took down my reply for whatever reason. 🙄 So I will make it brief. 1.) Your first question/answer was correct. 2.) Answer to your second question, Yes. 3.) Handbook advises against +p (wear issues) and +p+ (too much pressure), but I would think the 124 gr would be fine in a CC scenario. 3. Your nerdness has you listed in my My Channels.👍Thank you Sir, for your extensive reply. Appreciate that.
Very nice video, I like how indepth you went into testing the rounds and giving the feedback, I personally carry the winchester ranger 127gr+p+ in my glock19.
@unclefreedomvalleytacticsa7521 I'm from South Africa, so on this side we a bit limited to all the available option out there, I was running the winchester ranger 124gr+p but availability was a problem it wasn't being imported so I stocked up on those 127gr after doing the function test. HST is another favorite but haven't seen that for years on this side.
I run the same in my Gen 5 G19 Kameel. Assuming you're from Durban or Jhb? 147gr HST's in 9x19 are available in Jhb if you're interested? Dave Sheer has the 50 round boxes and Tactical HQ has the 20 round civilian boxes.
@thepatriotsrage661 hi brother thanks for the heads up, I'm from Durban our shops here are really limited. The 50 round boxes are a pretty good deal, just a pity I'm not in JHB. When I found the 127gr rangers in Durban I ended up stocking up on that 👍
Great vid! Quick question if you have a moment: do you think hornady critical duty is alright in a pcc with a 13” barrel + a 3” comp or are there better options for that long a barrel in your experience?
Good info! Some of these rounds I’ve been looking at but haven’t found many tests on the “Tube with the data you shared here. I’ve been carrying the HST 124 +p since I started. I found a decent deal for 1000 rounds of 124 +p Gold Dots and bought those too. I figured for my daily environment, they seem like really good choice. Thank God I’ve never had to use them for anything other than testing them for cycling and zeroing my optic. But they seem (HST’s and Gold Dot’s) like they would do fine for me. But I’m always looking for others to fill up my ammo cans with. Might have to go with some Critical Duty to cover defeating barriers if I ever think I need to.
Yeah clear ballistics gel have made ballistics testing exciting to watch. But just collecting data is the boring hard part, shoot ,measure, pull round, reset, shoot measure
The Federal HST may perform slightly worse than some other rounds, but it used to be a lot cheaper than other rounds. I have over 2000rds of it, and I bought all of it a few years ago, so the most I have paid for any of it was under $30/box of 50. Most of it, I bought for around $22/box of 50. If I had to choose something else, it would be Speer Gold Dots 124gr.+P. They work pretty well and I can get them for about the same price as HSTs.
Both solid bullets with the +p loading and I agree on the price. I can say I have been able to recently pick up 1000 rounds of 124 gr +p hst for 27 a box of 50. The Hornady stuff I'm issued but also purchase it on my own, I'm LE so mine comes in a 50 count box like the HST and for me it's actually cheaper than the HST. Though that is a perk of what I do for a living
@@unclefreedom213 Yep, You LEO guys do have that tiny lil ammo bonus! But I feel for the crap you guys have to deal with. BTW , Thank you for your service as well! Tell Federal Premium to let us wretched common folk have the 50 pc .380acp "Deep" HST loading for LEO that passed the FBI protocol! Its B.S. that they downloaded the powder a few grains for the consumer version in the 20 pc boxes. I mean lets face it, 380acp is kinda weak, and how many LEO's are carrying 380ACP besides (an ankle backup) I guess they don't care (or think we are dumb) I'm just gonna carry Underwood Extreme Penetrators until or IF they do, let us filthy commoners have them. Otherwise I'll load my own LeHigh's in Starline nickel plated cases. Screw em! 😀😆😅🤣😂
I have some +P 50 grain hollow points from Liberty Ammunition box says 2040 FPS. I haven't gotten to shoot them yet, I lost my 9mm in a boating accident sadly and haven't been able to replace it yet, but I imagine they must scream being as fast as a subsonic rifle round. 2040 FPS, 462 FPE, 2" dispersion @ 25m, 12' penetration @ 10ft, reduced recoil, deep cavity projectile, starburst fragmentation is what the box states.
Didn't that ranger T actually make your Nogo list as well? You should consider doing a video specifically on Glass barriers . Important thing to remember is it almost no projectile I was going to perform with great expansion on our glass barrier. However, your follow up shots will. If they perform well in the first place. The 9 mm is not the perfect defense choice, it's just the Round that most people can handle.
I'm not sure how I've managed to miss this channels existence as long as I have, but when people really want to know what's going on, even the corrupt people at TH-cam can't prevent a person from finding the info they want, unless of course they take it down or delete it, which they do quite often . Something to add. People have the idea that the Round they choose is supposed to perform well in every respect whenever possible, Underwood does that pretty well through whatever barrier as long as it's using that extreme defender projectile from Lehigh defense. But the thing people keep missing is that although the majority of projectiles don't expand after going through a glass or metal barrier, the objective is to remove said barrier, especially when it comes to glass and then your follow up Round can perform as expected. As long as it doesn't deflect or ricochet off of the barrier and go someplace, it was not intended, you can determine that the projectile is in fact doing its job.
Ive been carrying the xtp for a couple years and Im satisfied with all the testing Ive seen. I like the +p variant specifically for short barrels to aid expansion. Out of my 5 inch pistol I like the punch which reaches 1250+ fps and really opens up.
I've been using Speer Lawman HP in a variety of carry guns lately. The attraction is a 50 round box at or less than most JHP defense ammo. A few of my LEO friends use it as their on the job ammo. It works great in everything I own. It is worth a look. I've been trying to decide what is the best ammunition for a carry gun in the woods. Aside from people I'm looking at everything from Black Bear to coyotes to skunks, fisher cats, racoon etc. I could use a 22 for anything but people and bear. I don't really want to carry a large revolver when I'm in bear country. I've dispatched a few skunks and a racoon over the years that appeared very sick walking around in circles and drooling sick. I usually carry a compact 9. Another issue you don't address is how the particular ammunition you're rating works in different firearms. I've tested a lot of carry ammo that works great in one gun but not so much in others.
I've shot the speer lawman HP the stuff I had ran the Sportsman bullet design. It wasn't bad but did make my top 10 as fat as guns go..... I've shot at minimum 9mm, 40, and most of the offering in 45 and 357 and 10mm even some of the bullets in 357mag and 38+p. Glocks were 17, 19, 20, 21, 22,23,26,27,31,34,35,45 sigs 226,229,210(weird gun),320,x5,x10, 1911, 1911 10mm caniks tp9sfx,, mete staccato p, ruger px4, px40, p90dc, p89dc s&w 686, 586 , combat, ruger p101, bodyguard, indicator, m&p 2.0 compact and full in 9, 40, 45 there's a lot more things like smith chiefs special 45, 9606 9506, taurus guns, Beretta 92, 93, several KAHR h&k vp9, IWI Jericho, masada, cz 75b, 75compact, sp01, p07,p09 in 40 and 9mm, Baby eagles in 9, 40, 45. No mot all mine and I have some good friends I've also made some terrible financial decisions
I’ve been running the federal punch 124 grain simply because I couldn’t find the HST at the time, from your experience with this round does it seem to retain its weight after passing through auto glass and sheet And did you see any jacket slippage? And I believe I’m running the American gunner XTP for my Ruger, LCP. Not sure if I’ll get good expansion just because of barrel length and velocity, Thinking about switching up to some Underwood to ensure penetration
If you mention velocity and energy, mention the barrel length. If you mention what you've loaded, again barrel length and powder. What made you choose the lyman? EDIT: What were the 5 test guns?
handgun rounds are almost exclusively 4 to 4.25 barrels unless specifically mentioned as shorter ie g26. As far as Lyman press? I have a redding T7 as well but really love how solid the lyman is when seating and honestly the Turret is smoother than the Redding
So??? In your no go 10 rounds vid you said critical defense was no go. Counterdicting yourself often here. Just like when you said one round penetrates to much and another doesn't.
@@unclefreedom213btw F extreme defender. It's a phillips screwdriver tip. I told them about it before it was made and to just give credit where its due but they didn't. So I'm sore about it. Lol sry.
I can agree with 8 of the ten you mention, the ones which I would never use are both of the Hornady bullets. Both seems to penetrate to a good depth but don't expand very well, the Critical Duty expands slightly better than the Critical Defense but neither expands very well. The one I like the best is the HST.
I used to think the same thing. I questioned hornady about that very thing at their ballistics class. Once I understood the why behind it, it made sense. The design function is the higher antimony lead alloy. Controlled expansion while balancing the need for deeper penetration and barrier performance. That's why the defense expands more, softer lead alloy. The HST is a great bullet but will get beaten, though not by a ton by the critical duty in barrier performance. The hornady round is interlock bonded, preventing over expansion that will limit its penetration. Also, the Hornady round is designed to shed its petals through auto glass to ensure optimal penetration in ballistic media after glass penetration. They're both great rounds. I just figured I could shed light on the smaller expansion diameter.
@@unclefreedom213 and Denny Davis , I 100% agree . Hornady's dont get as large but its by design just as Uncle Freedom said. Its so it can get thru auto glass or 2 sheets of 18 gauge steel etc and THEN go thru denim layers and end up 12-16" in the 10% ballistic gel. Which is a special ballistic gel that is specked out by the FBI as well for their testing protocol. I will bet "Critical Duty" is probably a bit too hot for the average citizen to CCW as it would overpenetrate right thru just a average human. Hence the design of "Critical Defense"- Its not designed for barriers except denim layers and about 9"-10" of ballistic gel which it does perfectly!
Have you noticed any new primer or powder issues with the new transfers of power with the ammo makers? We’ve had quite a few fail to detonate with Winchester recently that we have not had before these companies were sold out of country.
I've been using Hornady for almost 20 years and have never had a reason to look else where...that said i am disappointed that they discontinued the original TAP line...i still have some locked away for Emergencies...
Oh ammo you got me thinking I still have 2 boxes of the old TAP .40. I wanna run the old stuff against the Duty and Defense and XTP through the barrier protocol. That will be the first Ballistics gel video I put up. Waiting on my shift change before I do that. Thank you for the idea! Shoot me a PM on IG @UncleFreedom213 so I can give you a shout out in the video.
@@unclefreedom213thanks...just use ETHRON1...unfortunately I retired from commie-tube. The videos I did helped, and still do, alot of people but unfortunately it put me on a list so in order to keep my channel and the videos I have I retired...or run the risk of loosing 10+ years of work...
I didn't hear a bad thing about Underwood Xtreme Defender Solid Monolithic +P 90 g I think it might be the best for all situations as far as barriers would you consider it on the overpenetration side of your top ten?
All very good picks. HST is the bomb 💣 literally. But I must be honest I haven't tested a lot of auto glass or barriers . Great picks tho. All will do the job. For sure.
Greetings, I discovered your channel a couple hours ago, I watched the 9mm No Go rounds, and agree with you on those, As an ex-LEO back in the early 80s, I carried the 357 Magnum with Remington 125gr SJHP at 1,450fps, 9mm rounds back them were lame, I carried a small centerfire semi-auto as back-up, bullet technology has advanced greatly in recent years, In 9mm compact, I use several different cartridges, such as, Federal 124gr+P HSTs and Underwood 90gr+P and +P+ Xtreme Defender, I also have a box of the Critical Defence that I bought in Dec. 2019 and the box claims 1,140 fps, I've seen them pass through a car door and penetrate halfway through a block of ballistic gel, I know, I found that hard to believe, but I saw it with my own eyes, I like the no bull stance you take. Subbed. 👍 🇺🇸
Thank you the advancements we've seen in bullet technology are close to the ones we've seen in flashlights. I remember being excited I was issues a light with the blinding 60 lumens of the surefire 6p now I have a 1000 lumens on my pistol. A little over 20 years it's crazy
@@unclefreedom213 Indeed, I have one that claims 10,000 lumens, which I think 6,000 is more like it, the same light now claims 20,000, It's very bright at whatever it really is. THX for the reply. 🇺🇸
You gotta test some of the LEO G9 Defense E.H.P. monolithic copper rounds loaded by a state of the art facility in Idaho it's definitely the best I've seen
I adopted the Hornady Critical Defense in several calibers after watching Paul Harrell do an extensive series of tests with his meat target around 4-5 years ago. He tested several barrel lengths from 2 inches on out and calibers from .380 APC on up. The Hornady round was the only one in his tests that consistently opened up without over penetrating. I do have the Remington JHP in .357 magnum in my Ruger GP-100 with a 6 inch barrel. I got the 50 round box when Wal-Mart stopped carrying pistol ammo. It is a very accurate, hard hitting round in that revolver.
Critical Duty is best for service pistols with 4-5" or longer barrels. Critical Defense is better if your barrel is shorter than 4". Critical defense is designed for more rapid expansion and will perform better at lower speeds.
I live in a no hollow point state and want to be able to defeat hard bariers and auto glass while still getting proper terminal performance. Out of a Glock 19 would you recommend Critical Duty, Lehigh Extreme Defender, or Fort Scott TUI? What loading?
I would run the Underwood loading 90gr extreme defender in +p it's smoking fast, excellent penetration and it doesn't care if you shoot it through auto glass or bare gel. And it's not too expensive and was available when I last checked on @midwayusa
Have you ever tested the g9 80gr external Hollow point? It looks similar to the extreme defender. I just haven't been able to see some quality testing of it.
Awesome vid UF! It's so seldom I find someone I agree almost completely with and that's perhaps due to past experience and testing I've physically done myself. I can see you've tested extensively based on your stated opinions. Some thoughts/observations: I need to correct you on the WW Defender, it is NOT the same as the Ranger T series by WW. The Defender or PDX-1 is a bonded bullet resembling the T series bullet but it is actually a repackaged WW Ranger Bonded. So the Ranger Bonded by Winchester is the same as the PDX-1 or Defender. The WW Ranger T series is a NON-BONDED JHP, thus making it susceptible to core-jacket separation (I have seen this in my own testing, I have also seen a Speer Gold Dot lose its core but that's another conversation). WW Ranger Bonded has a suffix of 'B' at the end of the product code e.g. RA9B, whereas the WW Ranger T has a 'T' suffix at the end of it's product code e.g. RA9T. The Barnex XPB as I mentioned in my last post, works ok but it's underloaded in my opinion. Look at Cor-Bons DPX and how well it performs at 1250fps+ for the 115gr XPB. Barnes could up the loading by a good 130fps. Very interested to hear your thoughts on the Speer Gold Dot and why it failed in your testing. I have seen it fail, but not often; but then again it all depends on the testing protocol you use. i.e. IWBA standard is much harder to pass than the FBI standard. Glad you showed the WW Ranger T some love, it is a great bullet/load and deserves respect. In all of the local SD shootings here in Johannesburg, the Ranger T used in various flavours from 124gr +P, 127gr +P+, 147gr in 9x19, 165gr in .40 and 230gr +P in .45ACP have ALL resulted (due to excellent shot placement) in DRT's aka dead as they hit the ground. Overall, super interesting; thanks for sharing your thoughts :) Best wishes from South Africa.
Love the Ranger t it's a solid round. I didn't realized some of those differences on the defender rounds. So I thank you for teaching me something and I will dive further. I hate passing on bad info but love the opportunity to learn. Barnes does underwood some stuff they are will to hotrod thier Tac bullets and those are pretty solid. I have a new thing I'm gonna test one of my buddies just got a .400 cor-bon which is a .40 in necked down .45 acp. Protocol I will typically run is the FBI I know there are tough tests out there but its a solid standard for defensive handgun. There are a few other test I will do for rifles
As Macabre as it sounds hearing that real uses data resulting in DRT is awesome and I would love to know more for my data on the subject. As far as the Gold Dot most of the fails have come from 147gr and some of the 180 in .40 I have seen it in .45 as well though not a consistently. The heavier loadings in not +p velocities puts them very close to expansion threshold so the trend towards over penetration and more so when we hit a barrier. with a 165 in 40 or +p with 9mm the tend to function very well and consistently but have still over penetrate and the hollow point clogs on them more than some. Just what I've seen on my end. I had a guy get mad in here because I didn't film it all, I told him I never intended on making a youtube but the way I see it is other people Alcan use my knowledge and possibly save some money or heart ache
@@unclefreedom213 The Ranger T is an awesome round UF, I'm glad you see that. So many other folk bash them for their intermediate barrier performance, but as we both know; they work in real world scenarios. No worries man, the correction came from a place of care and wasn't to be mean. As for the .400 Corbon, that's magic!! It's a very obscure caliber but it works very well. Same as it's .357Sig cousin. Overall, awesome vid and great observations made.
Bought a box of Rem 115 UMC JHP. One of the primers blew back out of the case and fried the inside of my pistol for 3 seconds (hissing and smoking) until I had to drop it. I had a very hard time getting it apart but it is all metal and was not damaged, I went online to complain and they were out of business. Cannot use them again.
I have shot some buffalo bore and I agree that shit is really hot. I didn't do much with gel maybe 2 or 3 times always bare gel or clothing it always delivered but having not shot it through barriers I don't feel like I have enough testing to comment on it
Holly crap! Going outside to see the pigs-a-flying over hell-frozen-over! A TH-cam posting I agree with 💯 %‼️ …well…the get shot in your shoulder and it comes out your toe…😂
Federal 9BPLE ! (+P+) Been around for nearly 50 years. Back during the early days of 9mm in LE, it became the king of the hill in the southern states; mainly due to its lighter weight re: poorer performance in heavy clothing penetration tests.
![F.HERO Ft. JSPKK x ลำไย ไหทองคำ x M-PEE - ไม่สนิทบิดหมด (Thai Riders Anthem) [Official MV]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/kPJZ0UihBfk/mqdefault.jpg)
1. Hornady Critical Duty 1:19
2. Federal HST 3:11
3. Underwood extreme Def 4:06
4. Winchester Defender 6:12
5. Hornady Critical Def 7:32
6. Federal Syntech 8:33
7. Fort Scott TUI 10:17
8. Barnes TAC-XP 11:33
9. Speer Gold Dot 12:42
10.Remington UMC 13:46
Thats for the Hard Work Brother! Saved me alot of time.
Much appreciated
Thank you.
Thanks for breaking it down saved me so much time. I greatly appreciate it.
Thank you!!!! 🍻
For those of us in cold winter climates [and in asinine defensive round limiting legal environments], the Underwood Extreme defender seems to be an excellent year round choice due to the need to penetrate clothing and still be able to create enough tissue disruption to produce an effective stop of an attack. I live in the Chicago area and this is my primary defensive bullet.
💯 carhartt is a tough barrier
I live in Texas, and I carry this in my 9mm EDC and my .380 car gun. I was so impressed with it when I see videos on ballistic tests that I had to have it.
Would that be the 90 grain round, good sir? I too live in Chicago.
Just switch to the extreme penetrator for 4 legged threats!!! You can get .357 magnum penetration from a 9x19mm
@Kevin Hart Ok I would generally agree. However to say you have to “hit a 6” disk” isn’t really accurate (depends on factors). The cavitation even at 800 fps is enough to cause remote wounding to nearby tissues. So really more like 8-10”. Also when charging the bear is essentially “inline with its spine. So while yeah you may not hit directly there’s plenty of bones shards and disruption that could devastate the nervous system.
Then you seem to be accusing me of things I didn’t say. I never said anything suggesting a handgun is equal to long gun fir near defense. I also never said anything about dogs? I also never advocated .45 calibers to be significantly bigger than .35 with regard to terminal ballistics on large dangerous game. I never suggested anything I’d equal to a 20 gauge.
I think you may have confused me with several other people or something?
I’m confused?
I only said that you can get .357 equivalent penetration out of 9x19 using 115 extreme penetrators. I stand beside that one front what I’ve seen in testing.
Both this and the Top 10 No-Go videos were great, and I'm glad I found your channel. It's always good to hear someone with actual knowledge and experience teach what they know, and I learned a lot. I've been carrying the Sig V-Crown 115gr in my CZ P-01, but I'm now switching over to the Hornady Critical Defense. It's doubtful I'll ever need to punch through auto glass or metal, so I just need a bad-guy-stopper in my EDC. Thanks for your videos, and I'm a new subscriber!
You're welcome and Thank you
Critical duty good for barriers critical defense not for barriers
Great Video Thank you. You are very knowledgeable. Here in South Africa we have plenty of action. Some guys like the fancy expanding hollow point ammo. I carry a Glock 17 and carry 4 Hollow points for concealed carry.Sometimes Black Tallons ,Ranger or Hornady Critical Duty in case i have to shoot someone up close and personal in a crowded place and wànt to avoid collateral damage as much as possible. . The rest of the magazine is 115gr FMJ. The 34 shot mags that I carry in the Car are all filled with 9mm Nato Bal 124 gl or 115 grain Pmp or Magtec or S&B . Penetration and Shot placement is what is a priority for our situation as there are usually extended firefights involved. I have seen plejty criminals that have been taken out with 9mm fmj . FMJ is a great round. Always feeds and digs deep after passing through glass,sheet metal,wood,clothing etc. As you say bullets do strange things when they hit liquid . I have seen guys live after being shot with 5.56 or7.62x39 etc yet go down instantly from 38Special or other "weak" round. To many variables and scenarios involved. Just saying don't think fmj is just practice or range amunition.
Might I suggest a flat point fmj like underwood 124+p FMJ. The flat point helps maintain straight line penetration through fluid and bone. It's why most bear or dangerous animal rounds are truncated or a large flat metplat (Nose).
I usually carry a 1911. I stoke my carry guns and 45 PCC rifles with 450 SMC. I use Berry's 185 gr HP bullets, and handload them to about 1400 fps. Excellent performance from them.
Love the hst 147gr standard pressure. One of the best performing rounds I have ever seen.
right on, right on, RIGHT ON! Not unhappy with the 124gr as well.
124gr +P for me 🤷♂️ 147gr is decent tho 👌
Why did they discontinue the FEDERAL BONDED IN 135GR ??🤔
@@blackticalmayhem8461 I remember the 135..... maybe replaced with the 155gr? I do have some of those.
@@blackticalmayhem8461 I use the 147 in my short barrel. GOOD stuff.
I carry 124+p critical duty I like the 135 too but when I tested the 124+p I got nice expansion and penetration. Great list.
You deserve a million followers my man! Incredible info. I’m going to replace my carry ammo now lol I had no idea of any of this
I would agree!
Glad to hear more love for the rangerT. Don’t hear much about it but it’s my favorite carry load for my Glock 19. Thanks for the info!
My pleasure I agree the ranger t is just great nit the best but a solid performer in all areas.
Same as the black talons without the coating.
But, they're only available to law enforcement right?
@@madwanoutdoors ok. Thanks for the info. I'll probably just get some hornady 135's.
@@KennyP.Gemstone civilians can buy them as "contract overrun" or "LE trade-in" or whatever bullshit wording the shop uses, but they will be out of spec in some way. The good stuff never leaves the agency it was originally sold to.
If you want true LE grade ammunition you have to prove you are an LE official.
I would love to see you do a video where you actually show the results you get when shooting your favorite carry rounds through ballistic gel.
That way there we can actually see the damage each one of your favorite rounds does. Maybe even put some clothing or other light obstacles you may encounter out there in the wild, in front of the ballistic gel. I always like to see for myself. I carry Underwood 90 grain +P+ in most of my carry guns. Sometimes I run the Hornaday critical defense or critical duty in +P also. I'd say those are my favorite rounds, and in that order. The tests I've seen with those rounds are impressive to say the least!!
I started all this over 10 years ago mixing simtest and ordinance gel because I'm a nerd and I wanted the data never Eben crossed my mind to video it because that wasn't what I was after and I had no desire to make a youtube. That said om working on getting a camera setup and stuff since the channel took off and will film them going forward. Not sure how I'm gonna film the rifle loads when I shoot gel at 2 to 600 yards but that's a bridge for another day
@@unclefreedom213 No worries brother, glad you plan on doing some future videos showing the results in ballistic gel. I bet your channel will really take off after you do a few videos like that. Maybe even title them like "My top ten favorite defense rounds, with the ballistic gel test results". Or something along that line. I just found your channel today, and these top ten best and worst defensive round videos is what drew me in. I'm always curious what other gun guys opinions are on defensive ammo. And it's especially interesting to me when I see the results. Glad your already considering making videos like that! I will definitely watch them when you do!!😎🇺🇸🇺🇸🦅🦅👊👊
With all the testing he said he did I was a bit shocked to know that he doesn't have any. I was wanting to see the results as well so I mentioned it and the reply was something like your just going to see a bullet hit gel. He said he did metal, drywall, plywood, and car windshields with almost all of them. He also said we but was not specific. I think that much testing is very valuable and would put him on a whole other level. So I'm a bit disappointed but I told him to keep on trucking and hope to see it in the future.
I mainly carry Underwood XD line. In my cc gun, I run the plus p plus 68 gr and 90 gr in my duty size 9mm. And the 135 gr supers in my 45. Great stuff!
just a proven excellent round
Outstanding info !! My dept runs Crit Duty 9mm 135gr +P(I'm retired now). So it for my LESO I listed it as my carry / qual ammunition. Now for my Sig 320 Compact 45acp I'm running Win Ranger T 230gr +P and all my 45acp pistols.
What size barrel were you using for the federal Syntech? My carry pistol is a Sig P365 with around a 3 inch barrel. Thanks!
Personally I carry HST, but I don't actually use the 124+p, although I have some. I usually stick to 124gr standard pressure in the micro short barreled 9's (to me the extra recoil isnt worth the minuscule gain in velocity and it actually penetrates less). I also prefer the 147gr standard pressure in my 4 inch + barrels and full size bedside pistol (because 147gr is naturally subsonic). I do wish Federal STILL made the 147gr +P's AND I wish they still had the old design with a single cannelure instead of the newer double cannelured stuff.
I assume you also watched those videos where the guy concluded the hst 124 performed the best out of 3 inch barrels
New watcher and sub and I appreciate your testing, researching and laying out your findings from informative stats. Thank You
Thank you
Great information. Passing it on. Thank you, sir.
Thank you
I have harvested a big buck using a 45acp 230grain xtp (hot hand loads) at 40yards. Definitely does it job. I do not hesitate to use that load as a carry round.
Nice! You should check out the 460 Rowland 1911's You could go up a size in game ! 😆😊
The XTP bullet is an exceptional projectile!! I like it much more than HST. Thank you for your Military service and putting your life on the line every day as a Police officer. I assume that is what you ment when you mentioned duty.
I agree it is just a proven bullet design. Also thank you your assumption would be correct.
Lots of love from the 2 A community.
I like to carry with first 3 rds hol pts & 5 rds of fmj for glass, metal if needed. Once again freedom you're funny as hell, thanks man.
Just me but I would never recommend FMJ in defensive situations where you are carrying anything bigger than a .32. I would just pick a solid barrier round that works either way. Just my thoughts. Thank you for the kind words. I'm southern so we tend not to mix words and be overly blunt.
Interesting viewpoints.
ha! ha! Ok.... you answered my question! Thanks! liked and subscribed
Well, that makes me feel better on what I carry. I hope to never use them, but now I know my family and I are safer. Thx for the great video. 🫡
Thank you for all your detail. Glad I found your site. It’s a huge help.
Another awesome video. And thanks for the advice on the defensive rifle rounds.
Thanks for watching
Great review! I carry the 135 Critical Duty in my 9mm’s, and 230 Ranger T in my .45’s. Glad to know they work well!
Solid choices all around
RANGER T-SERIES is inconsistent tho 🤦♂️..in 9mm at least. In .45ACP it's great!!
I use 9mm 124gr +P HST often. Winchester Bonded PDX1 +P is good too. Ranger T T series isn't bad in 230gr +P .45acp.
@@DavidLLambertmobile those rangers have sharp talons I shot some into water it was impressive in 230gr
@@DavidLLambertmobile The PDX-1 BONDED in 147gr is my preference over the 124s ..in 9mm ..
In .40 S&W the 165gr are excellent accurate rounds👌
Thanks for doing this! I am glad I horded a few boxes of 100 round UMC 115 gr JHP back when Walmart carried handgun ammo.
Great video. At work we carry the 147 grain 9mm Winchester.
Ranger T or Ranger Bonded Warren?
@@thepatriotsrage661 I believe it’s the Ranger T.
Great choices! My duty ammo is the Federal HST. This stuff has performed extremely well, in every test I’ve seen. Very reliable stuff. That being said, I carry the Underwood Extreme Defense 68gr. +P in all of my off duty weapons. 1,800fps out of a 4” barrel, and somewhere around 2,600fps in a PCC!!! Amazing stuff. By your standards, theoretically, this will create a hydrostatic shock. Of course, I value and welcome, your opinion, or personal experiences with this round.
Woah! It hits that high in a Carbine rifle? What’s pcc?
I’m falling in love with the Xtreme defenders.
Came across your Not To Carry video, and then took a look at this one. Most of the stuff I keep a box of happen to be on your Carry list. I am a little surprised regarding the Hornady XTP round. I've been looking at using it in a reload for bulking up on HPs but was reading several reviews disparaging the bullet design. But most of those were a bit older reviews.
Been looking for a round to replicate through reloading for bulk storage (not EDC). Mostly been considering the Speer GD or Hornady XTP bullets as they are readily available so could be loaded at considerably less than $1+/rnd. Might have to take a look at the LH Xtremes. I don't see them often in the stores and it's a real pain to order on internet where I'm at.
I stock bulk in XTPs it's a good round as Long as you load around its limitations
💯 on the UMC. It tends to shoot very accurately too.
Nice. I carry 124gr +P HST or Gold Dot in all my defensive guns save one. I occasionally carry a Glock 42 .380 when I’m running. I’m that .380 I use Underwood loaded with those Lehigh Extreme Defender bullets.
I’ve got a couple old boxes of the OG Black Talon in .45acp that my uncle gave me after he retired from duty that I just keep because it’s cool.
So helpful. Thanks for posting!
Glad it helped
Really great videos brother, I appreciate the no BS assessment. Its a nice change to alot of other channels. You have a subscriber and ill make sure to tell my friends.
Thank you
First time seeing your channel, and I was impressed with your knowledge and presentation skills. New subscriber!
Thank you
My 3 go-to hollow points are HST, Gold Dot, and Federal Punch. My fmj for practice are usually Blaser Brass because they are usually 14.95 for 50 at Academy.
That punch is super surprising for an inexpensive as they are they perform quite well and just missed making my top 10. I have had some issues with blazer brass itself not the round but reloading the brass has presented issues to me withnit being brittle.
I can't find gold dot anywhere
@thelurker9472 do a Google search for able ammo Huntsville Tx. I'm about 40 minutes away from there, and they have a pretty good selection. Gold Dots are a little pricey, especially the 50 rnd box.
Finally! Someone singing the praises of the round i carry in my EDC, the Underwood loaded LeHigh Xtreme Defender! I have loved everything about this round since i saw ballistic tests here on TH-cam. It's kind of expensive, but how much is my life worth?...
Exactly 💯 right now it's one sake on Underwood ammo site just a heads up
@@unclefreedom213 I know, I just bought 200 rounds last week!
@ShiftyKen 08 I ordered more too!
Great video about all the brands of barrier defeating, 9mm, defensive pistol ammo, Uncle Freedom! Very impressive knowledge U have acquired! Also it was good to hear that Paul Harrell was right on, with his long time use, of Remington Green an White box pistol ammo ! 😄😆
Thank you!
ove the hst 147gr standard pressure. One of the best performing rounds I have ever seen.
I use Underwood Extreme Defender in my 380s and 9mm. In my really light 380s (LCP Max) I will use the Lehigh loading. It's the only round I'll use in my 380s. With nerve damage in both hands, I often have to carry only a 380. At 71 I had to do a lot of video research to find what seemed to be best for me. I do trust the Underwood Extreme Defender in 380. I do have some Fort Scott TUI 9mm rounds. My main 9mm is the S&W Equalizer which allows me to fire 9mm easily in spite of the nerve damage in my hands. That EZ technology allowed me to start spending real time shooting 9mm rounds.
I run Critical Duty 124 +p in my G17 and absolutely love the performance. I watched your other top 10 video and you were spot on with everything you said, i'll be sure to subscribe to you once i finish this vide. Keep up the great work!
Thank you!
@@unclefreedom213 You're welcome, looking forward to more content!
.451” Xtreme defender 190gr over 7.8gr ram shot true blue is my carry ammo. Zips good and does what it’s supposed to in gel tests. In northern states where carharts and other heavy warm clothing is normal, that’s why I I chose it as my carry bullet.
Same boat here with Carhartt
So glad I found your Channel. Really appreciate what you do, keep up the good work.
this is fantastic data. I am hoping you have a similar video on .38 special
I have some work ahead to make a video on 38 special. I've tested a bunch but don't have near the log of data I do for things like .40, .45 and 9mm
here in europe its mostly ball ammo, but i got some smurfs from a friend of mine and like how they perform(smurfs as in federal syntech).I will look to get some more
Xtreme Defenders are my carry choice. I also like their 68 grain Xtreme Defenders in 9mm.
Love that round I approached it like it was a gimmick boy was I wrong it's a stellar bullt design
I been interested in the fluted and solid bullets coming out. Many of the fluted bullets are much lighter than standard defense rounds but travel much faster. Have you thought about reviewing those? I understand the rounds you reviewed as they are typical of law enforcement ammo.
Luckily for me I'm fun and already agree with quality 🤘🤠🤘
I picked up the free floated hand guard version earlier this year. Put a Geissele SDC trigger in it, and a Primary Arms SLX 1-6 gen 3 on top. Haven't gotten to any kind of distance, but at the indoor range, the whole magazine makes one ragged hole. Can't wait to get to an outdoor range. Stay safe out there! My uncle never thought anything bad could happen, until John Hinkley shot him in the neck. Love your content!
Thanks it's hard to beat Primary arms 1-6 they are solid
@unclefreedom213 especially for the money. All those features, plus glass that's hitting way above it's class, for under $300? And I like the chevron aim point. I only have around 600 rounds through it, but there hasn't been as much as a hiccup. Keep doing what you do, and again, be safe out there!
Another excellent honest video, keep it up!
thank you
I was surprised to not see Corbon mentioned on this list, or your no-go list. Back in the day, it was the shit. I have tested it extensively in ballistic gel and dummies, clothed and bare, and it always performs excellent. I personally have over 1000 boxes of 115 gr +P and 125 gr +P 9mm Corbon. And at our bug out compound, we probably have over 10,000 boxes of them.
What are your thoughts on Corbon?
I haven't done a ton or corbon offerings but I will be doing some in the near future
I'm glad you said that I've had good performance from the 115+P (1350fps) out of a 4" barrel is excellent 👌
I agree it's a really good round . I heard it has a reputation for fragmentation like a rifle round but whatever it's probably devastating on tissue
Hey brother. Just stumbled upon your channel and I watched the video from start to finish.. unfortunately I didn't see my EDC carry ammo on your list. I was advised by the guys at my range to carry the Hornandy American Gunnar 124+P.. wondering if you've ever tried those out? If you have, and don't recommend them, I can always switch to the Critical Defense.. if you have tried it out, please share any information with me please. I'm a new CPL carrier and want to make sure I'm using legit ammo! Thanks in advance
How much do police departments get HSTs and Gold Dots for? $0.57 for 124 grain +P HSTs and $0.60 for 124 grain +P Gold Dots are as cheap as I can find them as a civi.
Great information! I have been hesitant to trust the Underwood Xtreme Defense rounds as my primary carry rounds, as they looked too much like "gimmick" rounds (cough - DRT / RIP - cough). I currently carry HSTs in 124-gr in my CZ P01 and in 147-gr in my Hellcat. Based partially on your review, and that of Tools and Targets, I've decided to switch to Blue Line ammo using the 90-gr Lehigh Xtreme Defender in 90-gr+P. I am also interested in the 68-gr Xtreme Defender, but will wait until I can test it using a ballistic pendulum before I go to that light a bullet. Thanks, and keep up the great work! 👍👍👍
Awesome I enjoy a Tools video as well that man cracks me up. I'm from Bama so I don't need a translator
@@unclefreedom213 🤣
Nice ! Gary Griffiths I wasn't familiar with Blue line ammo but I will be working up an order for them now. I see their using those newer Forged alum/stainless cases too! Those things are incredible for reloaders . I watched them reload the same 9mm +P and .223 rounds and shoot them like 50 times or so! It was incredible! Plus you can pick up your spent cases with a roller magnet! They use a slightly modified sizing die to push the case back off the die with a spring loaded plunger because the case is so much stronger than brass. Other than that its about the same as normal reloading. I was looking for some Xtreme Defenders for my newly acquired .380 Ruger Security pistol I just bought. I don't trust the expanding rounds to go deep enough in the weaker 380, even tho Federal passed the FBI test protocol with their .380ACP HST "Deep" ammo back in 2020. It was done with a load that is made just for LEO, and is loaded slightly hotter than their regular "deep" HST 380 (facepalm) It needs to be available to all of us!
@@PatriotPaulUSA FWIW, I tried some Underwood .380 xtreme defender ammo several years ago when I was primarily carrying a Ruger LCP. It was CONSIDERABLY hotter than anything else I used, including the Cor-Bon HPs that were my primary carry rounds.
Found it. Thank you, Sir. Appreciate the list.
Glad you found it. I gotta remember to link these things together.
@@unclefreedom213 Was wondering on the best round for the new Walther CCP M2. I will read up on your list.
@The Truth That's the new 9mm right 3 and half barrel is 8 round cap correct? if so I would ask ypuis barrier penetration important to you or are you looking at this like a never have to shoot through a barrier gun.
If barrier penetration is important I would say the critical duty 124gr+p or honestly the 90gr extreme defender loading from underwood. The 90 grain functions flawlessly even in Plain gel, doesn't depend on expansion and will be milder in the recoil game. Perfect fir something in a lighter slimmer handgun. The 124+p critical duty load will be snappy out of the lighter gun but will achieve favorable results even through compound angle auto glass with solid penetration in the 12 to 16 inch range out of handguns I've fired with similar barrel length.
If barriers are of no concern to you and your main value is it dumping energy and be more comfortable to accurately fire quick follow ups I would go to the Critical defense 115 gr from Hornady. It'll give you optimal penetration in the 9 to 12 inch range greatly reducing you over penetration risk all while driving deep enough to hit vitals out of the smaller gun. Critical defense will also lessen the flash seen from the shorter barrel and smaller gun due to the powder blend which can and will save you night vision in a defensive application. You lose barrier capability but if you don't need it you don't need it.
If you can't find those and budget is of concern I've also had great success from shorter barrels firing the Federal 138gr Syntech Defense as well as the Federak Punch 124gr offering. The syntech isn't that snappy and has low flash when firing smaller guns. You won't risk over penetration with either of those but neither have solid barrier performance outside of the odd plywood or sheetrock and even then it can be marginal. Keeping in mind neither if them were purpose built for barriers they make a solid economic option that would allow you to get some training in on your carry load and throughly vet them in your firearm.
Hope this helped and thanks for giving me a question that let's me nerd out a bit.
@@unclefreedom213 Well, YT took down my reply for whatever reason. 🙄 So I will make it brief.
1.) Your first question/answer was correct. 2.) Answer to your second question, Yes. 3.) Handbook advises against +p (wear issues) and +p+ (too much pressure), but I would think the 124 gr would be fine in a CC scenario. 3. Your nerdness has you listed in my My Channels.👍Thank you Sir, for your extensive reply. Appreciate that.
Very nice video, I like how indepth you went into testing the rounds and giving the feedback, I personally carry the winchester ranger 127gr+p+ in my glock19.
That is a nasty round it can lack in penetration due to its speed but just a nasty round the T series bullet is just no joke
@unclefreedomvalleytacticsa7521 I'm from South Africa, so on this side we a bit limited to all the available option out there, I was running the winchester ranger 124gr+p but availability was a problem it wasn't being imported so I stocked up on those 127gr after doing the function test. HST is another favorite but haven't seen that for years on this side.
@@kameelramdhingrindrod9431 Cheers from across the world excellent ammo choices all around
I run the same in my Gen 5 G19 Kameel. Assuming you're from Durban or Jhb? 147gr HST's in 9x19 are available in Jhb if you're interested? Dave Sheer has the 50 round boxes and Tactical HQ has the 20 round civilian boxes.
@thepatriotsrage661 hi brother thanks for the heads up, I'm from Durban our shops here are really limited. The 50 round boxes are a pretty good deal, just a pity I'm not in JHB. When I found the 127gr rangers in Durban I ended up stocking up on that 👍
Great vid! Quick question if you have a moment: do you think hornady critical duty is alright in a pcc with a 13” barrel + a 3” comp or are there better options for that long a barrel in your experience?
Good info! Some of these rounds I’ve been looking at but haven’t found many tests on the “Tube with the data you shared here. I’ve been carrying the HST 124 +p since I started. I found a decent deal for 1000 rounds of 124 +p Gold Dots and bought those too. I figured for my daily environment, they seem like really good choice. Thank God I’ve never had to use them for anything other than testing them for cycling and zeroing my optic. But they seem (HST’s and Gold Dot’s) like they would do fine for me. But I’m always looking for others to fill up my ammo cans with. Might have to go with some Critical Duty to cover defeating barriers if I ever think I need to.
Yeah clear ballistics gel have made ballistics testing exciting to watch. But just collecting data is the boring hard part, shoot ,measure, pull round, reset, shoot measure
@@unclefreedom213 😂 So true that collecting data can be very monotonous and boring. But essential. Thanks again!
The Federal HST may perform slightly worse than some other rounds, but it used to be a lot cheaper than other rounds. I have over 2000rds of it, and I bought all of it a few years ago, so the most I have paid for any of it was under $30/box of 50. Most of it, I bought for around $22/box of 50.
If I had to choose something else, it would be Speer Gold Dots 124gr.+P. They work pretty well and I can get them for about the same price as HSTs.
Both solid bullets with the +p loading and I agree on the price. I can say I have been able to recently pick up 1000 rounds of 124 gr +p hst for 27 a box of 50. The Hornady stuff I'm issued but also purchase it on my own, I'm LE so mine comes in a 50 count box like the HST and for me it's actually cheaper than the HST. Though that is a perk of what I do for a living
@@unclefreedom213 Yep, You LEO guys do have that tiny lil ammo bonus! But I feel for the crap you guys have to deal with. BTW , Thank you for your service as well! Tell Federal Premium to let us wretched common folk have the 50 pc .380acp "Deep" HST loading for LEO that passed the FBI protocol! Its B.S. that they downloaded the powder a few grains for the consumer version in the 20 pc boxes. I mean lets face it, 380acp is kinda weak, and how many LEO's are carrying 380ACP besides (an ankle backup) I guess they don't care (or think we are dumb) I'm just gonna carry Underwood Extreme Penetrators until or IF they do, let us filthy commoners have them. Otherwise I'll load my own LeHigh's in Starline nickel plated cases. Screw em! 😀😆😅🤣😂
I'm with ya on the HSTs. Stocked up unwhittingly before all hell broke lose.... and glad I did.@@unclefreedom213
I have some +P 50 grain hollow points from Liberty Ammunition box says 2040 FPS. I haven't gotten to shoot them yet, I lost my 9mm in a boating accident sadly and haven't been able to replace it yet, but I imagine they must scream being as fast as a subsonic rifle round. 2040 FPS, 462 FPE, 2" dispersion @ 25m, 12' penetration @ 10ft, reduced recoil, deep cavity projectile, starburst fragmentation is what the box states.
I actually do cover these on my other list.
May you recover from your boating trip, sometimes the seas are nasty
Didn't that ranger T actually make your Nogo list as well?
You should consider doing a video specifically on Glass barriers . Important thing to remember is it almost no projectile I was going to perform with great expansion on our glass barrier. However, your follow up shots will. If they perform well in the first place. The 9 mm is not the perfect defense choice, it's just the Round that most people can handle.
I'm not sure how I've managed to miss this channels existence as long as I have, but when people really want to know what's going on, even the corrupt people at TH-cam can't prevent a person from finding the info they want, unless of course they take it down or delete it, which they do quite often .
Something to add. People have the idea that the Round they choose is supposed to perform well in every respect whenever possible, Underwood does that pretty well through whatever barrier as long as it's using that extreme defender projectile from Lehigh defense.
But the thing people keep missing is that although the majority of projectiles don't expand after going through a glass or metal barrier, the objective is to remove said barrier, especially when it comes to glass and then your follow up Round can perform as expected. As long as it doesn't deflect or ricochet off of the barrier and go someplace, it was not intended, you can determine that the projectile is in fact doing its job.
Subbed. Great info
Ive been carrying the xtp for a couple years and Im satisfied with all the testing Ive seen. I like the +p variant specifically for short barrels to aid expansion. Out of my 5 inch pistol I like the punch which reaches 1250+ fps and really opens up.
The punch round is surprising
@@unclefreedom213 the punch is a really really good round. I wish they'd give us a real +p version.
Have you texted fiocchi defense dynamics 124 grain yet?
@Uncle Freedom have you tested Magtec Hollow points or the complete Lehigh Defense JHP rounds?
I have done some magtech one of which is the 77gr solid copper hollow point doing 1630 fps from a g19
Middle 90s to early 00s, the XTP was loaded in ammo known as "TAP" "Tactical Application Police"
I carry these in Fiocchi "Extrema" 9mm.
I've been using Speer Lawman HP in a variety of carry guns lately. The attraction is a 50 round box at or less than most JHP defense ammo. A few of my LEO friends use it as their on the job ammo. It works great in everything I own. It is worth a look. I've been trying to decide what is the best ammunition for a carry gun in the woods. Aside from people I'm looking at everything from Black Bear to coyotes to skunks, fisher cats, racoon etc. I could use a 22 for anything but people and bear. I don't really want to carry a large revolver when I'm in bear country. I've dispatched a few skunks and a racoon over the years that appeared very sick walking around in circles and drooling sick. I usually carry a compact 9.
Another issue you don't address is how the particular ammunition you're rating works in different firearms. I've tested a lot of carry ammo that works great in one gun but not so much in others.
I've shot the speer lawman HP the stuff I had ran the Sportsman bullet design. It wasn't bad but did make my top 10 as fat as guns go..... I've shot at minimum 9mm, 40, and most of the offering in 45 and 357 and 10mm even some of the bullets in 357mag and 38+p.
Glocks were 17, 19, 20, 21, 22,23,26,27,31,34,35,45
sigs 226,229,210(weird gun),320,x5,x10, 1911, 1911 10mm
caniks tp9sfx,, mete
staccato p, ruger px4, px40, p90dc, p89dc
s&w 686, 586 , combat, ruger p101, bodyguard, indicator, m&p 2.0 compact and full in 9, 40, 45
there's a lot more things like smith chiefs special 45, 9606 9506, taurus guns, Beretta 92, 93, several KAHR h&k vp9, IWI Jericho, masada, cz 75b, 75compact, sp01, p07,p09 in 40 and 9mm, Baby eagles in 9, 40, 45.
No mot all mine and I have some good friends I've also made some terrible financial decisions
Awesome video. I carry the 90 grain Underwood in my Staccato P. 135 grain in my Nighthawk Custom 1911 45acp
glad you enjoyed the content the Underwood loadings are down right scary good
Have u tested the 115 grain pmc bronze 9mm jhp
I’ve been running the federal punch 124 grain simply because I couldn’t find the HST at the time, from your experience with this round does it seem to retain its weight after passing through auto glass and sheet And did you see any jacket slippage? And I believe I’m running the American gunner XTP for my Ruger, LCP. Not sure if I’ll get good expansion just because of barrel length and velocity, Thinking about switching up to some Underwood to ensure penetration
Can I get your thoughts on the Seismic Quakemaker +M
If you mention velocity and energy, mention the barrel length. If you mention what you've loaded, again barrel length and powder.
What made you choose the lyman?
EDIT: What were the 5 test guns?
handgun rounds are almost exclusively 4 to 4.25 barrels unless specifically mentioned as shorter ie g26.
As far as Lyman press? I have a redding T7 as well but really love how solid the lyman is when seating and honestly the Turret is smoother than the Redding
I carry the flying screwdriver in whatever I carry, from my J frame, to my PX4, to my Glock 21.
The defender is such a good round. Seeing what it does makes me excited for what the next development in small arms projectiles will be.
So??? In your no go 10 rounds vid you said critical defense was no go. Counterdicting yourself often here. Just like when you said one round penetrates to much and another doesn't.
@@unclefreedom213btw F extreme defender. It's a phillips screwdriver tip. I told them about it before it was made and to just give credit where its due but they didn't. So I'm sore about it. Lol sry.
I can agree with 8 of the ten you mention, the ones which I would never use are both of the Hornady bullets. Both seems to penetrate to a good depth but don't expand very well, the Critical Duty expands slightly better than the Critical Defense but neither expands very well.
The one I like the best is the HST.
I used to think the same thing. I questioned hornady about that very thing at their ballistics class. Once I understood the why behind it, it made sense. The design function is the higher antimony lead alloy. Controlled expansion while balancing the need for deeper penetration and barrier performance. That's why the defense expands more, softer lead alloy. The HST is a great bullet but will get beaten, though not by a ton by the critical duty in barrier performance. The hornady round is interlock bonded, preventing over expansion that will limit its penetration. Also, the Hornady round is designed to shed its petals through auto glass to ensure optimal penetration in ballistic media after glass penetration. They're both great rounds. I just figured I could shed light on the smaller expansion diameter.
@@unclefreedom213 and Denny Davis , I 100% agree . Hornady's dont get as large but its by design just as Uncle Freedom said. Its so it can get thru auto glass or 2 sheets of 18 gauge steel etc and THEN go thru denim layers and end up 12-16" in the 10% ballistic gel. Which is a special ballistic gel that is specked out by the FBI as well for their testing protocol. I will bet "Critical Duty" is probably a bit too hot for the average citizen to CCW as it would overpenetrate right thru just a average human. Hence the design of "Critical Defense"- Its not designed for barriers except denim layers and about 9"-10" of ballistic gel which it does perfectly!
Used strictly for self-defense the HST kicks the Hornady loads ass pretty badl
y@@unclefreedom213
Didn't hear much about failure to feed. Any? Also I trust my
Life to the Hornady. I enjoy video fhat moves right along.
Very nice presentation.
Have you noticed any new primer or powder issues with the new transfers of power with the ammo makers? We’ve had quite a few fail to detonate with Winchester recently that we have not had before these companies were sold out of country.
I've been using Hornady for almost 20 years and have never had a reason to look else where...that said i am disappointed that they discontinued the original TAP line...i still have some locked away for Emergencies...
Oh ammo you got me thinking I still have 2 boxes of the old TAP .40. I wanna run the old stuff against the Duty and Defense and XTP through the barrier protocol. That will be the first Ballistics gel video I put up. Waiting on my shift change before I do that. Thank you for the idea! Shoot me a PM on IG @UncleFreedom213 so I can give you a shout out in the video.
@@unclefreedom213thanks...just use ETHRON1...unfortunately I retired from commie-tube. The videos I did helped, and still do, alot of people but unfortunately it put me on a list so in order to keep my channel and the videos I have I retired...or run the risk of loosing 10+ years of work...
I didn't hear a bad thing about Underwood Xtreme Defender Solid Monolithic +P 90 g
I think it might be the best for all situations as far as barriers
would you consider it on the overpenetration side of your top ten?
That round is in my top 5 all day for best rounds
I've been carrying Hornady Critical duty in my G23 for over 10 years now, my son carry's the same. The wife carries Critical Defense in her SR40c.
Hst or critical duty are top of the line
All very good picks. HST is the bomb 💣 literally. But I must be honest I haven't tested a lot of auto glass or barriers . Great picks tho. All will do the job. For sure.
Thank you
have seen the videos on auto glass with HSTs.... you'll not be disappointed!!
Critical defense in both my cz75b Omega and my wife's Walther 380.
Greetings, I discovered your channel a couple hours ago, I watched the 9mm No Go rounds, and agree with you on those, As an ex-LEO back in the early 80s, I carried the 357 Magnum with Remington 125gr SJHP at 1,450fps, 9mm rounds back them were lame, I carried a small centerfire semi-auto as back-up, bullet technology has advanced greatly in recent years, In 9mm compact, I use several different cartridges, such as, Federal 124gr+P HSTs and Underwood 90gr+P and +P+ Xtreme Defender, I also have a box of the Critical Defence that I bought in Dec. 2019 and the box claims 1,140 fps, I've seen them pass through a car door and penetrate halfway through a block of ballistic gel, I know, I found that hard to believe, but I saw it with my own eyes, I like the no bull stance you take. Subbed. 👍 🇺🇸
Thank you the advancements we've seen in bullet technology are close to the ones we've seen in flashlights. I remember being excited I was issues a light with the blinding 60 lumens of the surefire 6p now I have a 1000 lumens on my pistol. A little over 20 years it's crazy
@@unclefreedom213 Indeed, I have one that claims 10,000 lumens, which I think 6,000 is more like it, the same light now claims 20,000, It's very bright at whatever it really is. THX for the reply. 🇺🇸
You gotta test some of the LEO G9 Defense E.H.P. monolithic copper rounds loaded by a state of the art facility in Idaho it's definitely the best I've seen
I adopted the Hornady Critical Defense in several calibers after watching Paul Harrell do an extensive series of tests with his meat target around 4-5 years ago. He tested several barrel lengths from 2 inches on out and calibers from .380 APC on up.
The Hornady round was the only one in his tests that consistently opened up without over penetrating.
I do have the Remington JHP in .357 magnum in my Ruger GP-100 with a 6 inch barrel. I got the 50 round box when Wal-Mart stopped carrying pistol ammo. It is a very accurate, hard hitting round in that revolver.
I have some of the remington in .357 and .38+p no issues with either. I love Paul's videos he is probably one of the best out there
Underwood Extreme Defender. Incredible wound cavity.
agreed
I love the old Federal Hydra-Shok
Its on his no go list.
Critical Duty is best for service pistols with 4-5" or longer barrels.
Critical Defense is better if your barrel is shorter than 4". Critical defense is designed for more rapid expansion and will perform better at lower speeds.
I live in a no hollow point state and want to be able to defeat hard bariers and auto glass while still getting proper terminal performance. Out of a Glock 19 would you recommend Critical Duty, Lehigh Extreme Defender, or Fort Scott TUI? What loading?
I would run the Underwood loading 90gr extreme defender in +p it's smoking fast, excellent penetration and it doesn't care if you shoot it through auto glass or bare gel. And it's not too expensive and was available when I last checked on @midwayusa
Have you ever tested the g9 80gr external Hollow point? It looks similar to the extreme defender. I just haven't been able to see some quality testing of it.
What's your opinion on the Liberty or Pilgrim 50 grain with approx 2000+ fps?
Awesome vid UF! It's so seldom I find someone I agree almost completely with and that's perhaps due to past experience and testing I've physically done myself. I can see you've tested extensively based on your stated opinions.
Some thoughts/observations:
I need to correct you on the WW Defender, it is NOT the same as the Ranger T series by WW. The Defender or PDX-1 is a bonded bullet resembling the T series bullet but it is actually a repackaged WW Ranger Bonded. So the Ranger Bonded by Winchester is the same as the PDX-1 or Defender. The WW Ranger T series is a NON-BONDED JHP, thus making it susceptible to core-jacket separation (I have seen this in my own testing, I have also seen a Speer Gold Dot lose its core but that's another conversation).
WW Ranger Bonded has a suffix of 'B' at the end of the product code e.g. RA9B, whereas the WW Ranger T has a 'T' suffix at the end of it's product code e.g. RA9T.
The Barnex XPB as I mentioned in my last post, works ok but it's underloaded in my opinion. Look at Cor-Bons DPX and how well it performs at 1250fps+ for the 115gr XPB. Barnes could up the loading by a good 130fps.
Very interested to hear your thoughts on the Speer Gold Dot and why it failed in your testing. I have seen it fail, but not often; but then again it all depends on the testing protocol you use. i.e. IWBA standard is much harder to pass than the FBI standard.
Glad you showed the WW Ranger T some love, it is a great bullet/load and deserves respect. In all of the local SD shootings here in Johannesburg, the Ranger T used in various flavours from 124gr +P, 127gr +P+, 147gr in 9x19, 165gr in .40 and 230gr +P in .45ACP have ALL resulted (due to excellent shot placement) in DRT's aka dead as they hit the ground.
Overall, super interesting; thanks for sharing your thoughts :)
Best wishes from South Africa.
Love the Ranger t it's a solid round. I didn't realized some of those differences on the defender rounds. So I thank you for teaching me something and I will dive further. I hate passing on bad info but love the opportunity to learn. Barnes does underwood some stuff they are will to hotrod thier Tac bullets and those are pretty solid. I have a new thing I'm gonna test one of my buddies just got a .400 cor-bon which is a .40 in necked down .45 acp.
Protocol I will typically run is the FBI I know there are tough tests out there but its a solid standard for defensive handgun. There are a few other test I will do for rifles
As Macabre as it sounds hearing that real uses data resulting in DRT is awesome and I would love to know more for my data on the subject.
As far as the Gold Dot most of the fails have come from 147gr and some of the 180 in .40 I have seen it in .45 as well though not a consistently. The heavier loadings in not +p velocities puts them very close to expansion threshold so the trend towards over penetration and more so when we hit a barrier. with a 165 in 40 or +p with 9mm the tend to function very well and consistently but have still over penetrate and the hollow point clogs on them more than some. Just what I've seen on my end. I had a guy get mad in here because I didn't film it all, I told him I never intended on making a youtube but the way I see it is other people Alcan use my knowledge and possibly save some money or heart ache
@@unclefreedom213 The Ranger T is an awesome round UF, I'm glad you see that. So many other folk bash them for their intermediate barrier performance, but as we both know; they work in real world scenarios. No worries man, the correction came from a place of care and wasn't to be mean.
As for the .400 Corbon, that's magic!! It's a very obscure caliber but it works very well. Same as it's .357Sig cousin.
Overall, awesome vid and great observations made.
Whenever someone says something about people being thinner than the testing gel, remind them BBs that harmlessly bounce off your skin go in 3 inches.
Bought a box of Rem 115 UMC JHP. One of the primers blew back out of the case and fried the inside of my pistol for 3 seconds (hissing and smoking) until I had to drop it. I had a very hard time getting it apart but it is all metal and was not damaged, I went online to complain and they were out of business. Cannot use them again.
Oh man that sucks to hear glad you gun is okay though
Would like to hear your opinion on the Buffalo Bore +P HPs. More of an old school bullet with a really hot load.
I have shot some buffalo bore and I agree that shit is really hot. I didn't do much with gel maybe 2 or 3 times always bare gel or clothing it always delivered but having not shot it through barriers I don't feel like I have enough testing to comment on it
What do you think about black hills 9mm ammo.. super power or the infamous honey badger? Similar to the lehigh design of fluid dynamics..?
Actually, it's pretty close in all reality. The tip gets a little more damaged through barriers, though.
Any thoughts on liberty defense?
Holly crap! Going outside to see the pigs-a-flying over hell-frozen-over!
A TH-cam posting I agree with 💯 %‼️
…well…the get shot in your shoulder and it comes out your toe…😂
Federal 9BPLE ! (+P+)
Been around for nearly 50 years. Back during the early days of 9mm in LE, it became the king of the hill in the southern states; mainly due to its lighter weight re: poorer performance in heavy clothing penetration tests.