Move Lateral BEFORE you Rotate (The secret 🔑 in the golf swing)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 10 ต.ค. 2023
- This was fun! Take a deep dive with us into proper rib/pelvis sequencing from our favorite view, BOOTY VIEW (Posterior). This angle sheds many interesting insights into what makes PGA Tour Golfers so good. Hope you enjoy!
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gents...been keeping u guys updated...using what u posted in this video...yesterday I just topped our social league leaderboard...my last four games...averaged between 39 and 42 stableford points per game...as crazy as this sounds...I have just used and practiced your body movements in the above video...dont focus on anything else like hands or wrists etc...as a social golfer when u have to many swing thoughts...it just doesn't work...for me...when the body works correctly...everything else...naturally falls into place...u guys have really imparted knowledge that has drastically changed my golf life...thanks a ton
Absolutely freaking awesome!!! Great work and keep busting those fellow leaguers up! So happy for you!! ❤️❤️
excellent presentation of biomechanic sequencing. i have been playing golf for decades and this 18min of video is golden!
Fantastic!! And let us know how it goes!!!!
Really appreciate the way you present the golf swing sequence. It’s both descriptive yet simple which is huge when it comes to emptying my head as I approach a shot. Thanks fellas! I’ll report back after a few months.
Fantastic! Glad it is resonating! Please keep
Us posted!
I've watched hundreds of instructional videos over the years, and this is the best one I've seen. Thank you so much!
Major praise! Thanks so much!
Just discovered this channel through Milo Lines Golf. You explain the sequence better than any other coach I’ve watched. I can’t wait until the weather improves so that I can try these movements for myself. Thank you.
Fantastic!! So happy they are resonating with you! Keep us posted on your progress please!
What this is is a dance move. As golfers we have to practice the dance and perfect the movements of the dance to be successful. Great teaching!
It has many similarities! Love it!
Exactly what I was thinking! Can I learn this? I’m a horrible dancer! Oh, wait, I’m a horrible golfer too! Hahaha…
Fantastic video! If I could only have seen it 40 years ago, I could have been a contender! Really well done guys. You can tell, you really put a lot of thought into putting this together! 5 star ⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️ video!
Fantastic! And thank you so much for the kind words! Incredibly generous of you!!
You guys are killing it. Simple as that. For those that haven't seen the GEARS tailbone movement graphics, it would probably help to explain this even more. Thanks for your vids. I hope you are both enjoying Colorado.
My man!! Thanks so much for the kind words. Colorado is treating us well!
The amazing thing about this explanation is that I feel like the best players and coaches have known this for 100 years, sometimes intuitively and sometimes technically but the number of coaches that have ever bothered or tried to explain this can be counted on 1 hand.
Nothing crazy new here… just broken down for you folks 🙏 thank you for the kind words
Lateral move sequence made so much sense and simplified the swing. Great video! Hit the subscribe and bell. Look forward to reviewing more of the videos.
Fantastic!! Keep us posted and let us know when you have questions!
Just catching up on some missed videos from you guys. Said it a few times on past videos. You fellas have given the key information that has change my game. Been golfing for 25 years and also been the player to search for improvement. Many many years following 2D instruction from magazines got me into some bad habits. Leading to a golf game that was sometimes on but most of the time off. I’ve following you instruction for about 6 months, needless to say I’ve made some significant progress. Distance has gone up, dispersion has narrowed. And handicap has dropped 4 shots. Now I’m a 6 handicapper and I feel for the first time in my life, I have the tools to get down to scratch or even lower. You boys a ballers in the TH-cam coaching world for me. Massive thank you gents
You're fantastic Matt!! Thank you for the kind words and please ask anytime you have questions my man!
Guys, I love this vid, it showcases many prior sessions into one! I captured this on vid on my phone and take it to my range to work with in my practice. I’m getting far better compression and flight since finding you guys 3 months ago while reviewing Milo’s (another great instructor) great vids. Some find instruction complicated… I thoroughly enjoy learning more every time I view your stuff. From terminology to anatomical references to comparisons with the ‘great movers’. Theses vids motivate me before I practice or play. Just keep doing what you do… so we’ll!!!
Thanks so much man! We’ll keep it up!
I really love this sequence video.. might be my favorite among my all favorites
Awesome video guys. Thanks for the quality content. The way you express yourself is first class!
Thanks so much man!
Greatest video of all times. Incredible details .. explanations. Thank you Dr. Riley & TJ!
Excellent!! So glad it makes sense to you man! Hit em well 🙏
Definitely needed this! Thank you guys!
Our pleasure!
This is the conversation I needed to hear! Cheers!
Cheers 🍻
Game changer insight gained today. While I have previously watched this video and have taken lessons from Riley, I learned something new watching the video again today. Previously, I could not understand why I couldn’t release the club. Today, I learned that it is because when I did the rib sway/re-centering to the lead side, I missed that the chest and sacrum turn away from the target which slings/releases the club forward. Instead of being done going forward after the lead-side rib sway, my turn kept me going towards the target, not efficiently releasing the club. Doing this properly makes the swing feel more effortless and releases the club without me trying to force it, but rather allowing it to release.
Boom!!!!! Big map gains!! 🗺️
Thank you guys for your videos! Very helpful, and you guys are great teachers of the golf swing
Thank you so much!! Hit them well! ❤️
Fantastic video! I've been following you for a couple of months. It was challenging at the beginning, but now it's starting to click. I've gone from shooting around 82 strokes to 78. Thanks for the great content.
So glad you’ve benefitted from the content man! More to come!
This material is golden. I've always been told I have a fantastic backswing and an almost perfect position at the top. But then everything fell apart. My mind didn't know how to tell my body how to get into the right positions in the downswing. I had a poor mental "map". This lateral, then turn map is the piece I have been missing! I'm a 5 handicap, but that's mostly because of my ability to get up and down. I would usually only hit 5 or less fairways and only about 6-7 greens in regulation. With this new map, the last few rounds have gone up dramatically! Averaging 10 fairways and almost 12 greens in regulation! Thanks for this! This is the piece I've been missing!!!!
Let’s go man!! Gainz!!
That's my story. Trying to go from an arm driven, junior style swing with lots of late wrist rotation to the more upper body driven swing.
Great video! I have been working on the rib sway move going forward but I see it is used to help with weight shift and backswing also! Moving the sacrum away and keeping my head behind the wall will also correct a fault in my swing. Very helpful gent’s. You guys rock 👍
Let’s go bro! Curve that sacrum! 🤌
This video was fantastic! I found that to practice the upper body movements and isolate from the pelvis, it was easiest to practice while sitting down. That way I could just focus on the lateral movements with side bend without having to worry about my pelvis sliding.
Great way to do it!
This video was fantastic! Thank you!
Glad you enjoyed it!
For me this video series is the GOAT. I really thought it would be impossible for me (or anyone) to undo years of destructive positional instruction but your phenomenal understanding and explanation of the swing sequence makes it easy to undo. It just makes sense. This is the gold standard. Thanks you.
Thank you my man!
perhaps the best sequencing of the golf swing I have experiences. after hundreds of lessons the best one is free on You tube. Thank you
Wow! Thank you so much!!
Masterfully explained; lateral movements of the upper body or rib cage backward and forward to initiate or trigger both backswing and downswing respectively, the sequencing of the rest of the body part mlvements can fall in place smoothly.
I wish l understood this 35 years ago, to have so much more control in my swing. It's easy to remember and can be taken to the courses. Not overloaded at all.
Fantastic! Hit them well man!!
This is a keeper to watch, a great understanding of the golf moves
Thank you!
i have worked on this...taken it to the course...definite game changer...gonna stay with this system...been watching instructional videos for abt 6 months...this content is far the best...keep it coming...
Thanks so much!
I will be doing this drill every night for the next couple weeks.. such a simple concept to build a strong foundation!
Love it! Please keep us posted as you work through the concepts ❤️🙏
Love the lesson thanks guys!
You’re a g!
What are the positions you refer to P1-P9?
Nice Gents, I like it when TJ displaces the Left Heel Forward during the Sit Action. This is evident of how the rib cage effected the Pelvis.The Pelvis allows for the Hip Sockets and the Ball end of the Femur to Internally wind the Legs. The last thing that moves in the swing is the Club Face and the Last thing that Strikes the Ball is the Club Face. Back-chain Spirals is where it's at. 👍
Yeah baby 🕺
hands down some of the only golf instruction worth anything on youtube
We appreciate you bro
Great video!
Thanks so much man!
That slight lateral move before the backswing l just discovered helps me to with a fuller backswing and move my eyes away a bit from the ball and not lock on like a dang missle lol. The transition to my lead side and smacking the bee gees out of the ball is crazy. Thank you now l know l am not crazy because l was asking how this could be lol. Thank you.
Fantastic!! So happy that you're experiencing some great stuff from the thoughts! Please keep us posted on your progress!!!
I agree this is one of the very best videos I have seen from a face on view of the golf swing. Very analytical and explanatory demonstrating the progressive sequential movement exercise like never shown before in any videos I have seen. Well done and kudos to you for this BUT BUT there is a cautionary narrative to this movement you failed to mention or maybe of which you are were unaware. Moving lateral before you rotate with the center of mass of the rib cage (Upper body)located in one direction with the pelvic system (lower body) located in the opposite direction before rotating (in effect a separation of upper from lower body and not on top of one another) is a proven well established formula for stressing out the lower back guaranteeing lower back pain through repeated action.
Lower back pain comes from extension or lateral bend in the L spine in numerous studies. Rule of thumb, maintain hip flexion/BCD and more the lateral bend up into the t and c spine and you’re healthy as they get ❤️🙏
Lower back pain comes from rotating the spine when the upper body is not on top of the lower body (center of mass on one side and sacrum on the other side). The fool proof way to avoid lower back pain is when the two are on top of one another but then again as you demonstrate you will lose the proper sequence required to properly and effectively strike the ball. The cause of lower back pain arises from the polar opposites of the lateral movement of the ribcage and the lateral bend of the pelvic system to use your terminology as any qualified physiotherapist will tell you.@@elitegolfschools
Increasing hip flexion in the transition (dropping the pelvis) will line up the the center of mass of the rib cage with the sacrum and that is when rotation can safely happen without injury/stress to the lower back.
There ya go! 👍
Best golf teaching content on TH-cam.
You’re the man
Probably one of your best clear instructional videos due to slowing and breaking down the swing movements...thanks again
So glad you enjoyed!
Audio much better today baby! Thanks coach!!!
Haha we do our best! 🙏
Such a great video!! Every amateur should watch this!!!
Glad you think so!
Fantastic many thanks
You bet!!
This is gold
Thanks my man!
Good shit!
Thanks so much! 🙏❤️
What a fantastic video….thank you
Thanks for watching!
Great post
Thanks!
Great body drill tips
Glad you like them!
I agree with all of the other comments I’ve seen so far. This really resonated with me. I went out today with the 9 iron and hit about 20 of my best shots ever. Switched to the 7 iron and before getting rained out, hit 3-4 great shots. I’ve never fully understood how all of the prices of the swing fit together and this helps tremendously! 😊
So glad it helped!
Thanks a lot for all the great videos that you produce for swings. Do you have a video how to putt as well. Thanks
Yes, titled “putt like the pros”
wrote to u yesterday....tried this sequence this morning...tricky at first...hwvr...when i started sequencing correctly...started hitting awesome baby draws...struggled with lowering pelvis in backswing...when stayed in backswing...and started lowering in downswing and moving forward..things took shape very quickly
Keep it up bro!
Lateral rotation adds some much-needed movement in the golf swing. That help to create a more powerful and accurate golf shot. From the feet up. Great video in explaining the proper move. This one is for mu library.
Thanks so much and glad you enjoyed!
For me, those views revels important stuff. As an example it shows clearly how the chest moves in transition and is facing (covering) the ball just before the turn. This made a difference which I am grateful for. Olle, a great fan of EGS😊
Thanks so much for the kinds words Olle!
Great practice drills
Thank you!!
Your videos are always on point. I can do this move but i always feel like my hand (or club) doesnt release, i get pushes. Ill look through your archives to see if you have any vids on releasing the club. Thanks!
Check out “Unloading the Spiral Line”
Guys,that rib cage sway especially in downswing part makes a difference to me. I was hesitant as lots of coaches preach "no sway" so it was confusing first. But now I see I will spend a lot of time practising this. Thanks guys
You’re welcome man! Go hit some flushers
You guys explain difficult positions so that everybody can understand.What about a lesson for us old people.(65+)
Great material of the golf swing . I am a 60 year old beginner and love your video instruction. I would say that I am guilty as a beginner of pulling from the top of the backswing with the lead arm . I have studied all your videos and still struggle with the the drop part of the downswing .
Is the drop really the lateral rib sway ?
Thanks again for the awesome videos and knowledge.
The drop is just hip flexion, the ribs do quite a lot but they are in charge of the lateral and rotational forces within our system
This stuff is crazy good. I’ve been trying these moves and have been hitting so solid. Now this videos gives me a game plan for maxing these moves.
Let’s go bro!! Keep up the good work
Everything’s beautiful, beautiful, beautiful.
🙏
Great stuff as usual guys, I have saved this in my favs for further review. I was wondering why is it important to shift laterally first without moving the arms and club?
Right on! And this loads appropriate arm lines at appropriate times 🙏🙏
Pieces not prices. The video is priceless. 😊
Thanks so much man
Love the video! Can’t wait to try this on the range!
Quick question - Do these movements naturally shallow the club or do you have to incorporate trail shoulder depression at the start of the downswing transition?
A little trail shoulder depression wouldn’t hurt, but these movements do help to naturally shallow yes
Enjoyed immensely.!! Question.
At what point/ motion does ONE of the shallowing moves(lead arm up, door knob move,) happen.?
Thanks!
Transition, with the drop/lateral (this is a shallowing move in itself)
Ive struggled getting a functional way of having pressure going down into the ground and pressureshift in trans. Some preach swaing the hips, and this make it impossible (for me) to get there. Moving the ribcage laterally, for the first time, make me feel the pressure gong down my thighs and legs into the ground both back and through. I feel Im standing more solid over the ball all the way, not swaing away from it. You give us some fantastic perspectives with your thorough explanations. Thanks a lot!!!
Thank you for watching!
Love the video. Is there a tell or a hint when the initial lateral move is too much or too extended?
I battle a sway or a lateral move that causes my pelvis to move off the ball. I often feel that my lateral move and chest rotation (spiral) are out of balance. When its really bad the natural remedy for me is timing and tempo, but there has to be a better way.
There is always a healthy balance, can always overdo or underdo. Trick is to know which end of the spectrum you tend to fall and make the adjustment from there 🙏
Thoroughly enjoy your videos, find them outside the norms of traditional teaching.
I for one suffer with golf related back issues. Can this topic be discussed in a future video? Would be very grateful and I’m sure appreciated by many others subscribers.
Thanks.
Of course we can cover this!
This is really helpful because I struggle timing things if I actively move my lower half. If I use my upper body to move my lower half it's much easier to sequence things. More importantly, this helps me take my arms out of the swing and forces me to use my upper body to create motion.
Yessir! Good stuff
Is the lateral movement essentially a load of the inside trail foot while keeping grip and hands steady on the club? Love your channel. Keep the videos coming.
Yes, absolutely
Very useful. In many instances, it looks like the lateral move off the ball is only in the upper torso. Other times, it looks like the hips move slightly laterally as well. I’m assuming the latter is intended.
There is definitely a pelvic lateral move in a lot of high level actions. The key is no extension in hip complex and player is moving laterally/rotating
This is gold! Can we use the same lateral move with the driver too?
Oh yes! Absolutely!
The instruction in this video is extremely novel, insightful, and maps out the indescribable. 'You can't fix what you can't see'- I surveyed over 2 years' worth of TH-cam videos in rebuilding a scratch golf swing I lost over 25 years ago. Because I was doing it intuitively, once I lost it, it was gone forever. This video has given me the building blocks to recover that swing, a robust way to arrive at the athletic pose at impact that I did not lose. Finally, a video to provide me the missing 25-year-old blocks that none of the other channels could provide* (or do so in a way that is less prescriptive [read Band Aid] that is diagnostically grounded in physics and anatomy). Bravo to you guys for taking video instructions to the next stratosphere.
My only question is how to avoid shanks, pushes, and hooks? I feel my forward T spine laterally is causing my club to get closer to the ball and my club shallows too much. I see most of this with short clubs, but less with long irons. A part of me thinks I put the same Venti heap spoon of medicine in a short coffee (shorter clubs).
PS: A suggestion for a follow-up video: What are the common faults of mere mortals in applying this concept?
* 'You can only see what you focus on'- even with 'Gears' that give us an MRI of our body moves, it is only as good as the person using it. I have watched AMG's gears video and I have yet to see T spine separation from L spine.
You’re on the right track bro. Everything is a recipe. The only reason the ribs move so far laterally is if you put a lot of energy into the spiral line (great for driver, not great for wedge). Wedge energy is low energy, driver energy is high energy. Same system, different waves 🌊
@elitegolfofarizona Solid Gold as always
Thanks bro
Lots of tasty morsels. Best meal I've had in a long time. Thanks
Love it!!! Definitely let us know if you have any questions!!!
Great video guys…I’m going to focus on lateral first in my practice! Safe to say that lateral rib sway to the trail side eventually moves the ribs in more of a closed manner, and in the lateral move through transition, the rib sway begins to open the chest? Seems to be the only way it works for me if I’m going to keep the rib sway in my upper spine…thx!
Sounds like you have the right idea man!
Does this sequence apply to my driver swing or are there subtle adjustments with longer clubs? Does it matter at all if I have a strong grip? I appreciate all your content, thank you so much.
Works throughout the bag and with strong and weak leaning grips 🙏
This really helped with my swing, only real issue I have now is my angle of attack being too positive (up) and catching some thin and not producing enough backspin, do you have anything that could help with this issue?
Make sure that you stay in hip flexion/back chain dominance through the strike and it will help level out your strike!
After years of trying to stop swaying in my golfswing I find myself locked in 1 place throughout my swing and quite often I dont get through the ball leaving weight on my back foot. Trying this slight sway back and fwd seems to help me swing through the ball better. Cheers
Cheers! 🍻
Just to confirm.
After the lateral rib slide to rear from address and spiral turn. Is the 2nd lateral movement a rib slide along the turned shoulder line or the back moving towards target movement? of course all to be blended.
thank you.
Both happen for sure but the trading of the bends is based on the trading of spiral lines as the player drops. All of this creates the lateral movement at the correct time as well as the rotation
is this rib sway (side bent) healthy ?
Totally get this. I think some can’t grasp that the chest is active and the legs are more passive in rotation. I would think for power and consistency.. chest dominant would win every time
Bingo!!
Would love to hear you guys talk about pelvic tilt. Using the lateral to initiate the swing has made my turn flat. Maybe I’m doing it wrong, maybe not important getting a pelvic til. Just would love to hear your take!
Yes! We absolutely can!! Super interesting and is in direct coloration to spine flexion/extension
Thank you for the golf lesson! I recently started golf not too long ago and have question about the lateral movement you are doing at the takeaway. Many golf lesson videos says you shouldn't move your head during the takeaway and the backswing to right side, because it promotes sway. At 15:50, the head and chest are moving away from the ball and looks like a sway, but maybe it's not a sway because the hip is not moving as much? Thank you in advance!
Yep! We love sway, just in the rib cage. Pelvic sway is something we look to stay away from 🙏
Awesome video - if i have interpreted correctly, if you were to break down the rib sway into two movements, on the way back the spine tilts away from the target and the ribs tilt/crunch towards the target, and the reverse happens in transition?
Exactly 🫡
@@elitegolfschools thanks! Just working on this for 10 minutes last night highlighted how much hip sway I have to start the backswing versus the hips largely staying put and the weight shift happening from the rib sway, time to practice this every day as it feels alien!
Is this sequencing something you teach universally or is it player dependant? For instance, I tend to push forward in the downswing and it makes it hard to rotate. Is it better for someone like me to rotate first then push? Great video. I live in Pueblo and am hoping to come for a lesson this summer.
First off, we’d love to work with you! Second, this particular video is a very universal concept that we coach. Everything that we prefer on our channel is not universal but this particular preference is 🙏
How does the lateral move apply with wedges and short irons? Still there, but not as pronounced?? Thanks, you guys are great!
Exactly! Same system, less pronounced 🙏
The swing appears to be a frontal/sagittal plane event, rather than a rotational one. I believe, based on what I am seeing, that the rotation is a by product of releasing the club and "folding" it rather than "dragging" it through the hitting zone. The body will follow suit and rotate to finish, if you are not trying to "create lag". Just my observations.
For everyone the ‘feel’ will be different, however, many different forces in swing, angular, vertical, and lateral actions make up our preferences
Totally agree! It just seems that there is so much "over analysis" when teaching the golf swing. Unfortunately, slow motion and still pictures of swings make us recreational players (and teachers of the golf swing) believe there is some "magic move" or "lag", etc.. It's a circle and we just need to stop overswinging and trying to force our bodies to do something we cannot. Love your stuff though!@@elitegolfschools
@@neckupfitness3274 thank you so much and definitely agree with that! Have a wonderful Easter and thank you for commenting! Hope to continue a relationship 🙏🙏
Have a wonderful Easter as well! Take care.
@@elitegolfschools
Great Video’s .. Question do you think if you are a bulkier and say not as flexible you would use exact same swing as a lean flexible person?
Not “exact” persay… bulkier dudes generally benefit from more rotational movement, as leaner dudes benefit from more vertical movement, but everybody’s recipe is unique
@@elitegolfschools thanks so much for your reply and thanks again for your great work
So when we putting use lateral force release or use also lateral and rotation force?
Both at the appropriate time 🙏
Wow!!!
🙏❤️🙏
Great video. The only thing that I need to ensure is that when moving laterally I don't early extend. That can happen very easily as weight moves towards the ball of the left foot/toes. Something behind the backside is helpful to practice this move to ensure that I am not invading the club path space. Thanks
Absolutely! Keep rocking it 🙏
Can you guys do an in depth video on ground forces? How to create them, etc.? Seems like chest as the engine conflicts with a lot of info out there about utilizing your feet/the ground to generate speed. Keep up the great work.
That’s a great idea!
I get letting the chest engine naturally bring the hips along. But to put some umph in the swing it’s still OK to feel ground forces and glutes contributing to the swing, right? as long as hips don’t start bumping or opening ahead of the chest turn?
Sure, you can always play around with the system.
opening sequence looks like a real back killer..good luck with that
Not at all what the research shows 🤷♂️🤷♂️
Should this work with all clubs? Thanks
Yessir!
Hey guys great video. I wanted to clarify something. I was under the impression the 2nd sway starts as the backswing is ending. Is that correct? This breakdown seems to imply that the 2nd rib sway doesn't happen until after you reach the top of the backswing. Thanks for all the videos. I am loving them. I implemented what you taught in the pitching video and it has transformed my short game.
It definitely begins as the backswing is ending 🙏
@@elitegolfschools
But isn't the top of the backswing as you define it at position 2.5, or is it at position 4?
Could you do this same exercise with a tennis racket so I can see what the club face is doing?
We’ve got plenty of those on our Instagram, one just a couple days ago 🙏
Does this apply to every club including wedges and driver?
Yep! Just toned down as you work towards wedge
@@elitegolfschoolsty! I'm a beginner and now it now feels like my weight is in the front when hitting the ball, and making the impact feel longer. Doesn't go far but definitely the hits feel good!
At 5:47 in the video I believe that was supposed to represent p7? What is the weight distribution? When I drill myself through these positions I feel like I may falling posterior rather than shifting energy anterior during rotation as I keep my sacrum moving opposite my lead side. This is very different than the old "rotate around the lead post leg" teaching of years ago I am attempting to unlearn. Great content guys!
It’ll depend on the club for sure, but yes at impact somewhere near 50/50 is nice 👍
@elitegolfschools using your principles I shot a par 72 today. Hoping for more. ☺️
Thank you for the great content!
@@ptogawa holy cow! Congratulations! Is that a new low??
@elitegolfschools I've sniffed par before but was always a struggle. This one was "easy". In fact, I went into 17 at one under and unfortunately went into "guard mode" and bogeyed hole. Got over it and rallied for a near birdie on last hole. Misread lead to a missed birdie by less than an inch. Short story, changes are working on course as well as on range. Trick is making it habit now.
If you think of just moving the sacrum away from the target, will your chest automatically rotate in the transitional phase. Thank you
Yes, it’s all the same movement 🙏 spiral line connects it all
Lucas Herbert always lateral then rotate. So nice swing
Thanks man!
Just wondering, if after moving laterally in flexion and completing the turn to complete the backswing, does the drop of the pelvis has to be done first before doing the next lateral movement of the ribs, or done at the same time prior to unloading to finish?
Drop lateral happens simultaneously in transition 🙏
Is presetting the first move ok? Or want it to be more dynamic?
Some guys preset the first move! Henrik stenson among them