DLSS 3.5: Ray Reconstruction
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 21 ส.ค. 2023
- Nvidia's big Gamescom announcement is DLSS 3.5 Ray Reconstruction. It runs on all RTX GPUs, not just the 40 series, and its goal is to provide a better denoiser for RT that produces a better than native ray traced image. We will still need third party testing to verify these claims and analyze the quality, but for now let's take a look at Nvidia's claims about how it looks and how it works.
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it's really incredible that we have all these advances in graphical technology, yet enemy AI is still stuck in 1995.
Yep. Along with the destructible physics environments we were promised in like 2008.
Must have been wind
Games that look pretty are easier to market.
In 1995?
Unreal Tournament 99's AI bots destroys a lot of modern games.
Enemy AI is left "dumb" intentionally because it would be a pain in the ass to beat otherwise. Computers can beat the best chess players in the world, they're definitely capable of beating anyone in games if left unrestricted.
I still never get tired of you floating around the screen to point out different on-screen elements. It makes your videos more accessible because you help point out what the audience should be paying attention to.
Soon he will become a downloadable cursor skin
"aaaaa..."
It is also hilarious 😂
and i love the noises he makes when resizig
100%, it's my favorite quirk of these videos :)
Gotta say, I love the tiny Daniel flying around and pointing at things as you explain them -it's hilarious but helpful at the same time haha
I was dying when he was bouncing like rays at the beginninng xD
It's functional and creative xD
he needs to edit himself in a professor x wheelchair. preferably the yellow hover one.
I find it super annoying. 2nd video I watched from this guy and can't see myself following him.
Don't let the door hit you on your way out.@@alexgr0111
AMD about to say they're working on FSR3.5 😂
Damn 😂
LMAO
and never mention it again for another year 🤣
They lost an opportunity to build something faster and universal with FSR.
@@darudesandstorm7002 And then a year after that they'll finally release it, which will guaranteed to be second rate in comparison.
Wow Nvidia adding features to 20 series cards? Color me shocked
@@LibangF15Nvidia guy in the presentation said it's coming to all RTX GPUs.
"Feautres" huh?
I prefer the word "gimmick".
We will have 15 games within 2 years if we are lucky that actually use it, and 1/2 of those will be Cyberepunk / Quake 2 / Half Life 1 / etc.
Lil bro deleted his comment proving he didn't watched the video 💀
@@TheVanillatech if it improves the ray traced quality and fps in games, why are you complaining?
@@TheVanillatech "Gimmick" I dont think you know what that word means. Maybe AMD should start to be the first to implement "gimmicks" instead of always playing catchup.
Incredible! Noisy and laggy ray tracing artifacts are the most off-putting visual anomalies to me, and here we go :) I'm so glad they've decided to tackle it this fast.
I was a little disappointed when I tried Cyberpunk Overdrive when I saw the artifacts. I expected it to look way cleaner. I hope this fixes that at least in part.
@@Dionyzos Same here. Its honestly a huge reason why I didnt bother using it despite it being so damn good looking. The artifacts/noise when driving or just moving was annoying. I am a person who gets distracted really easy and looks around the screen a lot at random shit so I notice the artifacts a ton.
@@Dionyzos It's a growing field, and still in its infancy, so we have to be patient, especially when we don't know how it can be improved 😅 I'm still shocked we have real-time path tracing in video games.
CDPR accurately stated that it's a 'technology preview'. The real deal is (hopefully) coming with Phantom Liberty 💪
@@WholesomePotato1 When I was in school for Game Art Ray Tracing was used in pre-baked lighting but it took an eternity to render and still looked noisy, you'd have to smooth it out in photoshop still. To see it done in real time is ridiculous to me. This was in 2008.
I also hope they fix the artifacting of DLSS when used with TAA, it's subtle most of the time but really ruins the visuals of Cyberpunk for me sub-4k. I think they "fixed" it but still seems to affect some (myself included). There's no real 100% fix to it either that I've found, I've gotten it to stop but it always comes back with game/driver updates or seemingly at random. Anyone who wants to play through cyberpunk immersively in VR is SOL because of this. The game needs to be run in native while also displaying the VR image and the only cards that can keep up are the 90 series gpus without DLSS, and even then they struggle.
It's good to see that it's on all RTX GPU and not only 40xx
Sad part is that without FG you would most likley not be able to play any raytraced games on lower hardware anyways since DLSS3.5 wont be adding any FPS as the guy in the presentation said, only reason it might get a little better perfomance is because of the many denoisers taking some performance in that scene! It's a catch-22.
@@takemeseriouslyplx2124 the 20xx series was an overpriced mistake since rtx works like shit on them. The 30xx series has decent rtx performance only on the top end. But now Nvidia is showing interest in path tracing, meaning that even their 40xx series is being humbled. What I wonder is if they're showing interest because it's the obvious next step or just so they can showcase their AI cores...
However, only the more powerful 4000 series models can comfortably render RT or PT)))
@@AlucardNoir
RTX 20 series was not a "mistake" in the way you describe. I can't really talk about the price easily because mining and other reasons affected the prices. But specifically talking about performance, you HAD TO START SOMEWHERE. It's the chicken-and-egg problem. You won't have great software support without the hardware to drive it. And if NVidia put on a crap tonne of extra transistors to make RAY-TRACING better at the expense of traditional RASTER performance then people would complain about the FPS in non-traced games...
The ONLY way to do this is what NVidia actually did. You bite the bullet, put in enough ray-tracing hardware to get things started and let the game devs start adding it to EXISTING games. Optimization comes later.
If YOU have a better way to do it that makes BUSINESS sense I'd love to hear it. And this is NOTHING NEW in the computer World. For decades we've had new features that weren't efficient. Tessellation. Various anti-aliasing methods. Even AUDIO when it would run on the CPU could kill performance until that became a solved, non-issue.
So the trend is this:
1) New feature. Has issues. Need high-end to "brute force" it.
2) Optimizations. Newer, more powerful cards. New feature filters down to mid-range.
3) Further optimizations and newer cards. Lower-end hardware starts running the features.
@@AlucardNoir good, I love it when tech companies push the boundaries and are innovative, bring on the new tech and lets see what wonders it can achieve.
If it's one thing, Nvidia is pretty good at AI.
more like NvidAI
That is kind of becoming their primary focus now.
They know they are fast approaching the limit of the economics feasibility of how much hardware can be push so they have to find a way to push it.
This also mean they don’t have to compete with amd on pure silicon which is ahead of them in chiplet design
@@sentryion3106 AMD is not ahead in anything
As long as the CUDA API is the industry standard.
The main reason I don't like to use anything lower than DLSS Quality at 4k in games with RT is how "noisy" and "blurry" the image becomes (even more so in motion), so if this works well it might be the feature that makes me actually use DLSS Performance (or at least Balanced) in games.
It doesn't reduce blur, that's down to the fact that DLSS renders at a lower resolution and then upscales. This tech is only focused on improving the ray traced lighting.
@@giglioflex Games use less and less ray samples as you reduce the internal rendering resolution, so using DLSS Performance instead of DLSS Quality results in a far noisier and less defined image. You could describe it as surfaces sort of boiling when the denoisers try to compensate. DLSS 3.5 is supposed to solve that.
@@guspazso it's gonna improve DLSS and not only RTX ?
If you have the performance headroom you can sort of emulate DLAA with DLDSR+DLSS for higher image quality
Can't edit my comment but the point of that would be to get around the limitation that ray reconstruction in 3.5 is currently limited to DLSS and not available using DLAA, like Owen mentioned. As a bonus you could potentially get even better image quality depending on your hardware.
Moving yourself to the thing you're explaining is a great visual support to the things you explain!
DLSS : reaches version 3.5
Me pokes FSR: c'mon do something.
My question is i have RTX 3000 series, and if I apply DLSS 3.5 in game, will i get Frame boost like from 20 to 108 (SR+FG+RR) or 20 to 60 like dlss 2 but with Ray Reconstruction in it?
Second one, RTX30xx series does not have FG, it is exclusive to 40xx series
It's always enjoyable to watch floating Daniel explain things. 😊
Love this channel, Daniel always describes stuff so nicely and without any stupid "fanboy bait" content that a lot of other techtubers do
Earned my sub from this, very well done video, even the way you presented the final product then the explanation for me really worked. Looking forward to more!
Leave it to Nvidia to confuse the hell out of people regarding what the heck their own cards are capable of doing.
Stick to console gaming if this is to much information for you to take in.
@@WidePhotographslmao let the man have his cake & icing my friend
@@WidePhotographsI think he is just referring to why can't all RTX cards utilize dlss 3.0 yet they can utilize certain key features provided by 3.5
best they can do is pushing a shitload of fake frames ignoring your input and the games response to that.
@@JustSkram Because all RTX have raytracing capable hardware but only 40 series have frame generation hardware probably
Can I use it with older RT titles by manually updating the DLL file? Or does it have to be optimized and updated by devs?
Daniel you explained it so well, no wonder you are a good teacher irl
Appreciate you putting in the time, and research.
Love the videos, keep up the hard work.. I'm always excited when I see that you've posted a new video, I don't think that you've uploaded a video I havent enjoyed watching so far..
This looks revolutionary, good denosing is the biggest issue with rendering in general as it removes a lot of details if you dont have enough rays, If this can do it intelligently results will be much much better
They REALLY should have had different names for the different technologies and a different umbrella term for the suite of DL techs
Shhh, aware and informed customers are bad for business...
@@thelegendaryklobb2879 Hehe. Tho if these don't become universally supported technologies that developers can rely on they will die out (like physx etc) and that would be even worse for business. That's why Nvidia worked with Microsoft on DirectX Raytracing
I'd like to point out that although I was also excited about that pink reflections, what I notice is that the fourth picture doesn't have any white light source while the other three do, especially the first one. That in itself explains the different behavior and misleading our first reactions.
It's difficult to explain but these noise patterns are very common in Ray-Traced Titles and you definitely see them. Especially at 4k. Good to see that they are trying to tackle them
@@kadupse Some raytracers reduce the amount of noise before post-processing via multiscale rendering, maybe it would also work for this rendering method.
@@kadupseExactly! in Cyberpunk, It also shows up as nasty ghosting trails. Reminds me of GTA Vice City lol
@@kadupse very immersion breaking in Lego RTX
Ya, it's a processing power issue. When it's obvious it arguably doesn't make sense to even have ray-tracing. At some point you're better off sticking with more traditional raster techniques. You may use Screen Space Reflections for example, rather than Ray-Tracing and then have the reflections disappear at certain locations or camera angles but better that sometimes than having the reflections have a grainy flicker that catches the eye. I can tune out certain raster issues. i can't tune out the grainy flicker of some ray-traced effects that don't have sufficient rays (and/or sufficient denoise etc) and look noisy.
@@odytricetbf in cyberpunk the default lighting solution is that noisy I'd rather play 30fps Ray tracing than use that mess
cant wait to try dlss 3.5
kys
This is going to take lighting , ambient occlusion and shadows to another level, this makes the biggest difference in making worlds feel 3d and not flat.
It's an improved denoise. It's inherently a slight improvement over what was already there.
Shaders are what give things a 3d feel, not raytracing.
@@giglioflex as a movie buff, i can confidently say that an improved denoiser is NOT just a "slight improvement"
Try Reshade with Superdepth3D, then the game won't just feel 3D, it will be! Of course you must have the HW for it, but for example CP2077 is godlike converted to real 3D. You won't even mind the lowered resolution or little ghosting + artifacts, all those minuses which accompanies the 3D effect/conversion. It's just so immersing. Or Subnautica (kind of indie underwater diving game) converted to 3D is very scary (it's scary even in 2D lol).
Their AI denoiser seems to like adding more light to the scene, than what is there already. It's like bumping up the saturation on your TV. Looks move vivid, but does not actually make the image any "better". One positive is that it'll now upscale the reflections too, but I'd temper your expectations.
Alan Wake II is described as having full ray traced (path traced) graphics on Nvidia's website( there is an image comparison as well). I can't wait to test this out since I noticed in a lot of games the image quality looked a bit more dirty with ray tracing on.
Great video! In the primary slide that you were showing, if you observe the purple tube/walkway, you'll find the white specular light/bloom on its right side is actually missing in DLSS 3.5. In fact the interiors of this tube look much dimmer. Was that bloom a problem and the new denoiser fixes it or is it a bug where denoiser removed genuine HDR like bloom on a shiny light emitting surface?
What do you think?
Could be so called fireflies (a problem with lower ray counts per pixel), could also be an artefact from the AI denoiser.
3rd party testing & different game samples would definitely help shed some light (pun intended?) on that.
WOW, Thanks for covering this!!! I haven't seen ANYTHING about Gamescon or This AT ALL!!! And I'm following like 10 tech/gaming chans.... I guess everyone is waiting for AMD's 7800/770 XT and FSR 3 announcement....
Thanks Mr.O!!! :)
What about DLSS 2.0 with RR whats that like on the 20series and the performance hit.
Great video, very informative, dig your style, got my sub.
Did you specifically ask about compatibility with DLAA, or did you just ask about native?
I may have misunderstood your question as one about native TAA. I'd be surprised if DLAA is unsupported
dude you made this video 20 minutes after the geforce video came out
He is a man of focus
Real MVP
Daniel is the one take king 👑
Between two math lessons.
Good teachers can improvise well :)
I hope you can turn this on without frame gen. DLSS 2 + This would be amazing.
yes. it's a free upgrade for all RTX GPUs, turing included.
You can! If you look at the chart it says Ray Reconstruction (All RTX GPUs)
it would be logical you can since its will works on all RTX cards, and not only RTX 40 series like frame gen.
If you can play with RT, it will just look better with the same FPS or slightly faster. Path tracing already looks sick, and now they're making it better.
Awesome guys, thanks for the replies :)
Your pointer finger is on point as always :D
I wonder if that could increase the upscaling quality if it does denoising and upscaling at the same time. Usually with temporal upscalers you look at a very small portion of the image for each pixel due to performance cost for only a small quality improvement, and denoisers on the other hand typically use a much wider window to remove noise. Using a larger window may give that small boost of quality
I totally get and agree the point you make about having exclusive graphical features per manufacturer but one positive I take away from this, is that it reminds me of the early days of 3d graphics or even early consoles, when having a different 3d accelleration card meant you get a different version of the game. I think it was a really exciting time and this could be the beginning of another shift in technology, during which the big gpu companies diverge in innovation and we get a bunch of weird stuff.
Does this improve performance or just image quality? Also, you can hate on Nvidia for pricing and stuff but they're the ones bringing the tech forward and the rest are just playing catch up.
first slide shows slight performance increase
@@GewelReal but if you watch the video daniel said that some scenes might but is not the norm this is just a image quality option basically shouldnt lift performance in 90% of the time
From the CP 2077 it seems to do both
same performance but sometimes better. But it mostly just improves quality.
Without Nvidia you would still have a patato in your pcie slot..
hi daniel i just want to ask if for example i play cyberpunk now after getting new driver update is it automatically the ray reconstruction will apply on the game? or do i need to turn it on the game settings?
The biggest difference between the right hand cyberpunk screenshot and the ones to the left is the removal of the white illumination above the scene, so is the render of reflections actually better?
Crazy how you can juggle producing and releasing videos and a full time job as a teacher, specially now that your channel is getting big so companies are definitely working with you now, your schedule must be hectic 😵💫
Wonder what it will look like 10 years from now, when the projected raw computation power of hardware should be enough to do RT without having to rely on neat optimization tricks.
It will look pretty realistic bro
could probably do 6-10 ray bounces in fully pathtraced games with 4k textures and 8k screens, though the 8k screen is a bit overkill, more fps at 4k resolution is better, imagine path traced 4k games running at 240fps
When i update by hand DLL file in for example metro exodus enhanced edition with that dlss 3.5 RR will work or this must to be implemented in game by devs to work?
more interesting will be, what performance change will Dlss 3.5 do on a 2x or 3x Rtx card
Ray Reconstruction seems like a great update to DLSS and making it available to all RTX cards is great too. Can't wait to test it in Cyberpunk whenever they're rolling that out.
It will be available with Phantom Liberty update.
They have never just "not made something available". DLSS 3 is available for all RTX cards too. The ONE specific feature that uses the hardware only 40 series has is the only thing platform specific. As is with DLSS itself. Everything nvidia GPU with tensor cores has DLSS. They have never artificially limited in any of their proprietary software within their own ecosystem.
With GPUs becoming more and more different from each other these days, I don't think it's a bad idea to have vendor-specific graphics pipelines to get the best performance out of each of these GPUs.
i love this explenation, is really easy to understand with moving your character around.
Sorry but the teenager in me low key chuckled out loud when I saw you use your tiny image as a cursor to indicate the screenshots...
Love it!
The problem I always have with ray-tracing is how terrible it is at lighting up shadowed or dark areas. Most implementations I've seen make shadows too dark. For example, in broad daylight and going under a tree or something makes it almost pitch black. I'm assuming it's because the light rays are being sent from the sun, but not bounced around or reflected like real light.
Indeed, that sounds like very limited bounces for GI (or none at all & just RT shadows).
Multiple bounces are heavy to compute, so they are limited to 1-2 in games. Portal RTX lets you increase the bounces to see what it can look like.
Wait this works on the 30 and 20 series as well? Can someone put this into portal RTX so I can try it out?
Yes.
So like 90% of this technology is doing upscaling *before* denoising for RT. The rest is their AI denoiser, which seems to prefer adding more light to the scene, it's not accurate at all, but it does look good I'll give you that. At least this is something that AMD can copy in a millisecond too (unlike framegen which does seem to heavily rely on those optical flow accelerators of the 40 series cards).
As always, appreciate this explanation of the new feature Daniel. Phenomenal work. I'd say you would makeout as a great "Teacher" lol.
As an AMD owner, still waiting on fsr3..............HELLO AMD are you still there! lol
AMDone
Yeah, that one is a bit of a bummer. AMD falling further behind isn't a good thing for consumers in the long run.
The immersion you get playing in Overdrive is incredible - complete gamechanger - it was obvious that there were some upscaling difficulties when playing - now we know some of it was denoising. I did wonder - if DLSS had been properly trained on Ray Traced Datasets - I guess the answer is yes but the denoiser/rendering tech produced by the engine was a big problem - that screenshot showing the subtle reflections (from the light tunnel ) of diffuse lighting is mind-blowing .
Nvidia now will have the best traditional upscailer and a mind blowing ray traced upscailer (that seemingly is actually able to infer a better image from a very spotty image).
Nvidia is really laying the body on AMD here. Will AMD be able to respond without tensor cores ? Anyway someone has to be the technical leader and actually lead - in this market it is definitely Nvidia so far !
Nah AMD will never get close with ray tracing.
apparently there are some "AI" cores on the Radeon 7000 series, but yeah AMD software is way behind Nvidia. They can't really humble them the way they did Intel in CPUs because Intel got complacent for nearly a decade, Nvidia isn't making that mistake, they are just greedy and AMD is following them in that regard as well
I rolled my eyes at first seeing this assuming it wasw only 4000s series and my 3080ti would be left behind, but wow this really looks absolutely incredible and I cant wait to test it
So is the glow on the tube like structure a bug or is it straight up missing with DLSS 3.5? Because it's present on the native image and influences the lighting of the entire scene. It's lost with DLSS 3.5.
Yeah, that looks like a bug. I wonder how often something like that happens during normal gameplay.
intel and nvidia are doing great for their customers lately, i wish amd have engineers from nvidia and intel to make their 7900xtx run faster than they are now
I like that, Nvidia is trying at least something to make right. Cant wait to try it in CP !
Serious question... Now with this technology (DLSS 3.5) is safe to say that a RTX 4060 of 8GB finally is a better option than a RTX 3060 of 12gb? Actually i have a GTX 1650 of 4gb haha. I'm planning to buy a card between those, but before this video i was pretty sure to go for the 3060. Now I'm unsure, again, and i think
11:50 what you mean with better looking? it looks terrible blurry compared to native.
Ray reconcuatriction sounds like a intriguing technology. I’m excited to try it whenever it releases..
And thus 50 series will stay at 8gb and 16gb of vram for double the price 😂
And you'll still be poor and mad
and down to 96 bit bandwitch
@@TTx04xCOBRA No, I call one "sucker" if pays prices taken out of someone's ass. I can afford two 4090s. Do you think I will pay such money for the PC part only to play a game on it? 😆
I have 5 other expensive and way more attractive hobbies I can spend this money on. It is the case when the steering wheel, a few 4K displays and hydraulic suspension for the seat make a racing gaming setup. The setup costs more than the entire season of real racing (car included) at some low-cost stock racing cup. In Europe, we have races with older cars which can't cost more than 1000 or 2000 euros. I'm sure it is the worst experience than gaming with 4090. I don't care if you call me "poor". Go back to your mom's basement and play.
@@HanSolo__ you're broke
Wait so is frame gen now available on all RTX gpus, or is it still only for the 40 series? It confused me a bit. It seems that DLSS 3.5 will be able to do Super Resolution and Ray Reconstruction on all RTX Gpus but frame gen is still locked to 40 series only. Am I misinterpreting the info???
Is there some way to access the pdf directly? Seems really interesting overall.
I mean the feature makes sense and it most likely will be good (they already denoise rt stuff so I don't see why not generating new rays entirely). But why TF does dlss 2.0 have a better reflection and GI compared to native?
I think native is not using denoisers at all because those go on with dlss and you are at 20 fps so maybe the ray hasnt even show yet hahaha
@@allansolano5587 denoisers should be there in the game engine, no way a RTX 4090 can get those framerates while rendering all that rays (it would be more like a frame every 5/10 seconds not 20fps)
Because it's the hardware accelerated DLSS reconstruction algorithm that processes the denoising. Native only works with a simpler, let's say, stupid denoiser. It should be possible to do this without upscaling in the future, just like DLAA.
@@Dionyzos ok makes sense
hopefully nvdia can come up with ai to simulate more vram chip
Lul. Ever the elephant in the room. "Shhhh, guys, it'll be fine, we've got this new trick just you wait!"
No shame.
Thanks for the fast update.
Great points Daniel. I like the insight. You could also say that main slide is misleading marketing crap, by trying to confuse image quality and frame rate.
The lighting in those scenes(at the start of the video) is different, so it's really hard to compare. Why would Nvidia pick those as comparison material? Or are they supposed to be the same?
But If I had to to choose, I'd say DLSS 3.5 looks strictly worse there. Tiles don't reflect light like that and that lighting cylinder thing also looks way more muted in 3.5. How do you get such a strong reflection from such a muted light source?
I don't know, most of looks pretty unconvincing. The only thing that looks convincing in the marketing material, are the fps numbers and maybe those preview imagine(for whatever that's worth). I highly doubt those fps gains are anywhere close to true though.
Have you been to Las Vegas at night? That's polished concrete. It's going to reflect color.
@@Draanor You think there'd be polished concrete in a dystopian city? I'd have to agree with the OP, the material properties were incorrectly set.
Well given the first image without RT is polished concrete, I don't particularly care about your art design choices, the asset in the screenshot is polished concrete. Complain to the devs. And yes, polished concrete seems right at home is dystopian Las Vegas style city... @@giglioflex
You should look at nvidia's presentation to better understand why the lighting is so different in the screenshot. There's a video at the end where they show all 4 variants of the scene in motion. It's a scene with dynamic heavily colored lighting, so the lighting is changing constantly and is mismatched between all 4 variants, that's why they look so different in the screenshot. What I noticed right away though was that the scene with DLSS 3.5 changes raytraced lighting from the light sources in the scene much much faster, because of (I presume) faster denoising process which doesn't need as much frames for better accumulation of results. The difference is night and day in my opinion. Without DLSS 3.5 the secondary lighting lags behind by at least half a second and you can see how slowly it reacts to the changes in light sources. With DLSS 3.5 it happens almost instantly like it should. Basically DLSS 3.5 effectively provides faster light bouncing in the scene, which is much closer to what happens with light in reality (instant change). This is very promising. It's not yet completely lagless, but getting close to it.
Also the reason the lighting looks more muted in the scenes w/o DLSS 3.5 is because it doesn't have enough time to fully saturate the scene because the light source changes faster than the GPU is able to fully process changes in RT lighting. You can see it clearly in the video, how it slowly and gradually changes from yellow-ish to blueish and back again, but never has the time to change completely to the new lighting state before the light sources change again, so it's always sorta kept half way. In DLSS 3.5 version because the light is bouncing much faster, the scene saturates fully almost instantly like it should.
Watching you shrink yourself into a fly and start buzzing around the screen is all the breakfast i need
Hi, do you think they will allow frame generation some time in the future on older GPUs like 3070 for example when they release 5000 series cards? Thanks.
No.
Picking the optimal settings from nvidia geforce now and then adding ray reconstruction drive fps down to 30-40 on my rtx 3090. Is that normal?
Yess! This incredible technology is no longer locked to JUST the 40 series! Proud of you Nvidia!
The main feature that came along with DLSS 3, Frame Generation, is still limited to the 40 series.
You should add a feature in OBS for your camera movements around the screen: While dragging, rotate yourself by 30° with a smooth animation. It would be even funnier.
but why? are you not entertained?
im getting the RTX 4070 ti this friday. when i install the drivers will dlss 3.5 already be there?
Is applying frame gen to movies theoretically possible? Watching netflix at 144 fps would be cool and bandwidth would not change for thr server as it's done client side
This actually reinforces my opinion that there's probably a reason that frame gen is limited to 4000 gpus. We still haven't seen AMD come out with a competing tech, let alone one that works as well which means it might legitimately be hard to accomplish on hardware that isn't designed around the idea of it.
Frame interpolation is nothing new, TVs do it with "frame smoothing"(the soap opera effect) , what Nvidia is doing is actually doing that in-engine instead and inserting an AI generated in-between frame between two frames, so it works great on high end cards because theres more frames to work with, and it's not as good on lower tier cards... You still need a good base performance anyways
It's not just an opinion. This is the actual reason that DLSS 3 is not enabled for older Nvidia cards as well. The hardware structure of the 4000 cards is different and was designed with this technology in mind. AMD's FSR works with an entirely different method that has nothing to do with tensor core algorithms.
Frame interpolation isn't voodoo magic or something Nvidia created. TVs have been doing it for a decade or more using low-end ARM chipsets. Turing and Ampere cards have the so-called 'Optical Flow Accelerator' that Nvidia are offloading the work to. They simply claim that the Ada one is improved, and the previous generation ones wouldn't offer as good of an experience. Be sure to note that they're not saying previous gen cards CAN'T do it. Just that it'd (allegedly) have more artifacts, and so they won't enable it.
@@CaptainKenway Nvidia has said that the Optical Flow Accelerator present in 30 series cards is not fast enough to get any fps benefit out of frame generation. Of course DLSS is backported because DLSS was designed with hardware in mind starting in the 20 series. They can do it but it's not worth enabling because the entire point is to get a significant fps boost.
You are correct that frame interpolation is not new. What is new is the proprietary method they are using to do it and the quality of the image that algorithm produces because of the custom hardware modules on the card specifically designed to make this feature work.
This is what Nvidia claims. I don't really care either way if it's true or not as I hate Nvidia and will never go back to using hardware from them ever again.
I think them bundling all these features under DLSS when they are really separate features is just another example of how anti-consumer Nvidia really is. They do shit like this all the time since the beginning of their company. Insult to the intelligence of their customer.
"works as well"? It doesn't work well, it creates a ton of input lag. I can get the same effect on my smart tv. Frame interpolation is nothing new.
One of the main points about RT and PT was physically accurate light simulation and getting rid off approximations and artistic tricks to achieve a somewhat realistic result. Now, through the power of AI and INT8/FP16 calculations, the approximations are back - the efffect shown in the slide deck can be achieved with some regular screen space effects btw.
No they can't. SS effects can't show anything off-screen, and have horrible artifacts at the edge of the screen and in combination with occlusion.
The AI/lower precision calculations aren't approximations in the same way the old school effects are approximations. The old tricks are doing the wrong calculations to get to somewhat realistic results quickly. The new approximations perform the correct calculations at a lower precision or frequency.
Sure, they both have their artifacts, but the new effects will scale with new hardware to greatly reduce those. The artist effort and workflow with the new effects is also greatly reduced.
We're not quite at the inflection point yet, but ray tracing will be the norm and the noisy artifacts will go away.
You would have to be incredibly ignorant to think screen space effects can reproduce path tracing effects outside of canned and cherry picked still comparisons. The moment something moves outside of your screen space, it's game over.
@@Niosus That's not entirely accurate. The new denoiser uses AI as does DLSS to upscale. In both cases you have an AI making an educated guess. The only difference is the AI is better at guessing than a algorithm.
@@Niosus I specifically said the effect in the slide deck (the Cyberpunk 2077 comparison screenshot). No RT, nor AI is needed to have an on-screen, bright purple object bleed color onto the concrete below it.
And no, the new effects won't scale with the hardware - not if there isn't a fundamental change in GPU architecture design. RT/PT and the algorithms employed, i.e. by UE5, leave more than half of the ALUs empty, doing nothing due to lane masking, as modern shader code essentially became a cascade of "if-else", or worse, "switch" statements - with GPUs near-always having to execute every branch sequencially.
We're facing at least another 5 years of games running like shit in relation to raw HW performance and looking blurry as f*ck due devs not optimizing anything anymore and due to upscaling, denoising and other such reconstruction and image synthesis techniques. I'm not having it!
@@Psychx_ Until you look down and all your lighting is gone. Or until there is an object in-between the ground and the light source, and you get this weird shadow around it. In most games, this object could even be your weapon.
Do you have any source on your UE5 claim? Thousands upon thousands of engineers at Epic, Nvidia and other places are working on this topic. You're expecting me to believe that a random TH-cam commenter is the only one to figure out that they're only using half the GPU and nobody has bothered to fix it and literally double performance for free?
I find that extremely hard to believe. I'm not a graphics engineer, but I am a software engineer. In my experience, every time someone proposes a simple solution to a complex problem, it's just wrong. You can say a lot about Epic and Nvidia, but not that they're technically incompetent.
Is it my screen or does the dlss2+3 sample picture have other global illumination bounce lighting compared to the native image? Why would that be?
Why not apply it natively to RT instead of doing thru or using DLSS? Or does it happen only when upscaling so reconstruction only on DLSS? Am thinking if this can reduce perf hit on native RT since there are instances where there's a perfomance gain when enabled.
I don't think people want to have early A.I stuff native. Years from mow, I'm sure it will be native.
C'mon AMD tell us something about FSR 3💀
Another up for Ngreedia vs AMD whose FSR3.0 is still in doubt
Where did the lights go?? In the native Cyberpunk photo on the left, you can see 4 bright white lights and those are bouncing off of the floor, and in the dlss 3.5.. they removed them! And so now the reflections of those lights are gone too, and the image is more purple or pink or something but only because the lights are gone. Were they implying the initial lights should not have been there before DLSS.. or did the just remove part of the game by mistake in the DLSS 3.5 picture?
The bright lights, at the top of those four images you started with... Look at the last one on the right... DLSS 3.5 obviously needs work to find more patterns if it's missing that lighting information.
This has been my big concern ever since i got a RTX GPU cause ray tracing didn't really make a gigantic difference as it should have in most scenarios for the performance cost it asks. Now this feature may actully make ray tracing worth it for once.
NVIDIA should spend more time making their GPUs better instead of forcing us to use an upscaler and fake frame generator to give the illusion of smooth gameplay.
And still you can do the ”same” thing with traditional ways… With Nvidia 1080 and other older GPUs… By hand coloring the images etc…
@@antimsm6705 this not a illusion of smooth gameplay whatsoever. This is genuinely a way to improve Ray tracing as a feature which will be used more and more in coming games. Sure frame generation is a gimick but this isn't. DLSS 2 is definitely not a illusion. It's a very good technology. The game developers are simply exploiting this feature to hide their garbage optimization. It's not all Nvidia's fault. (I do agree that the 4000 series is bad)
@@haukikannel That is not what ray tracing means at all....... It's completely different from what u are saying. The very point of ray tracing is to remove the need for such hand tuned traditional methods and decrease the effort on developer side and increase the workload on hardware side to making realistic lighting. U are right such *effects* can be recreated using traditional methods but it takes a insane amount of work to do it and is very time consuming. Even then it won't be completely realistic. Nvidia is trying to make lighting in games become realistic without having to put a insane amount of work on it and more accessible to every developer
I disagree. A proper GI implementation of RT is actually making a big difference in immersion. You are probably talking about implementations that can barely be called "RT" like some shadows and some reflections here and there, which is most of the "RT" games today to be frank. But its still a step over pure raster, its like the new "ultra".
AMD about to announce FSR 4!
😅
No frame gen : D hehehehe poor AMD
Just 2 more weeks!
So is DLSS 4 coming with the 50 series or are they planning to update DLSS more frequently so that the 50 series can ship with DLSS 5?
love your channel explaining comparing things + your a holsome dude. keep it up++
Play. Like. Full screen. Let's watch.
Dude... here I am waiting for FSR 3 news and yet I found DLSS 3.5 news.... AMD, please give us more competition on the technology side as well as the hardware side
As for the exclusivity, I agree, if there's too much of exclusivity in technology, devs probably will lean towards the better one, whether it's easier to implement, or better result overall. This leads to the old classic scenario where AMD stuck with the inferior tech (you can't use certain option, like those hair stuffs in Tomb Raider iirc).
You shouldve bought Nvidia dude
@@TTx04xCOBRA well, I'm using RTX 3080 now, but the reason I'm waiting for FSR 3, is for the actual competition, and extra option for those couple games that only has FSR
@@setiadisatria1038 FSR 3 is heavily rumored to only work on RDNA 3 GPUs
@@TTx04xCOBRA ahhh, well that's add another reason for people to buy 7000 series card huh? Finally AMD turns to the darkside, just like Nvidia mwehehehehe.
Welp, we'll see how it turns out, if it's indeed interesting then..... It's time to actually start the technology wars then, which is GOOD. Might not be good in the short run, but probably good in the long run
@@setiadisatria1038 What technology war? Name a technology AMD released in the last 10 years that wasn't a clone of an Nvidia technology released prior to it? There is no competition, look at the market share and steam hardware survey numbers. Nobody buys amd. Even people who talk shit about nvidia buys nvidia. Btw competition is not necessarily good for the consumers, despite the clichee. Look at cpu market, since the competition sharpened, amd has now raised the priced beyond intel prices in the dominant era. So, (1) don't fall for clichee's and (2) buy what serves your interest best, don't think about anything else.
With Portal RTX you can compare reference and denoised and boy does it’s it eat quality and produce artifacts. The biggest improvement I hope to see in this tech outside of that is the noise and shimmering DLSS introduces to certain aspects of ray traced scenes. Most often this is seen as what looks likes moving film grain and such in reflections.
so is it faking Ray Tracing like u dont turn on ray tracing on cyberpunk but if u use dlss 3.5 it looks like you have rt turn on? or is it like u turn on rt and dlss 3.5 and the image gets more clear or dlss 3.5 gets rid of the rt lighting and replaces it or parts of it with AI ? im confused. maybe due to the fact that english is like absolutly not my native one ..
These hardware tied features are very bad for game developing: it can turn Pc gamig on the path of Console "exclusiveness".
I'd rather have a worse RT API that anyone can use, like DX, OpenGL and Vulkan, then old style 3DFX closed doors.
FSR and XSS are both hardware agnostic and I much prefer them that way.
People forgot how bad it was when 3DFX was in the position Nvidia is nowadays: Nvidia itself used to be the "underdog", with ATI, PowerVR and Permedia, bringing free 3D acceleration to everyone.
The Unreal Engine has its own upscaler too.
XESS is not hardware agnostic, there are two upscalers called XESS, one for XMX cores, and one for DP4a (other GPUs). Hence why XESS is better on intel. Until AI accelerators become standardised (fat chance) this will continue.
There's alway been proprietary hardware and software in the PC market, just as much as there has been in the console market. Intel CPUs have always had different architecture and have used different sockets and motherboards than AMD CPUs, for decades. The same is true with Nvidia GPU's and AMD GPU's. Both have always had a different set of proprietary hardware, features, drivers and other software.
It's just the way things are. If any of them come up with a new idea, innovation or patent, then they should have the right to choose whether or not to share it out or to close it off from any competition and instead use it as a selling point.
For example do you think AMD ought to let Intel use thier Infinity cache and 3D V-cache? Or even let Nvidia copy thier MCM design? Or should they reap the rewards and force the competition into coming up with thier own solutions in order to compete against thiers.
Like it or not, proprietary product's and IP's are a very good way of forcing companies to innovate, come up with thier own ideas and compete against each other. And heathy competition is always good thing.
From a business prospective making something 'open source' also isn't going to earn you a dime and is also helping out the competitions product, just as much as it's helping your product.
@@fafski1199 @fafski1199 no, you are missing the point by a mile. AMD, Intel and even Nvidia never tried to push proprietary APIs into games until DLSS.
XESS is obviously heavily optimized on Intel hardware, or rather the other way around, and so, I guess, FSR on AMD. Despite this, they can still run on other hardware if the developers chose to implement that API in game. I can still test XESS on Radeon or RTX GPUs if I want, or FSR, and see how it compares with other upscaling API if I like, but I will never be able to do the same with DLSS, by design, meaning that code is for exclusive benefit of Nvidia owners, and I pay for it even if I don't own a GTX Card.
I don't care what is in the drivers of a Rizen or Intel main board and CPU: the program will work exactly the same on both systems.
Like in the old Voodoo 3DFX API times, DLSS its brand tied and Nvidia pushes for developers to code for their hardware specifically.
You can see the difference: I can write code for FSR or XESS, and I guess the API designers will heavily optimize their hardware to run better on their architecture, but they don't cut, purposely, off other brands. If AMD is smart enough, it can freely design a GPU which is better optimized for XESS then Intel ones as it's free use software. Intel and AMD will never be able to design a GPU able to run DLSS code anyway because of legal constraints, exactly as it happened for Voodoo dedicated API.
The developer should set the API as an overlay for their game to work and it's up to the drivers and the hardware to optimize for it.
@@LeptospirosiYou don't need to specifically code anything for DLSS... DLSS, FSR 2 & XeSS make use of the exact same inputs that're generated by the game engine. The only thing you need is the SDK's for the upscaler in question but that's not exclusive to DLSS. FSR 2 & XeSS also require their respective SDK in order to work.
What is different is that DLSS does not have any inferior fallback for any generic GPU without "Tensor Cores".
There needs to be some more standards created around this type of technology. Just like how at first devs had to use RTX for raytracing but then Microsoft incorporated DXR into DirectX and RTX is just how NVidia implements their DXR support (and Vulkan added their RT extensions)
Microsoft should add frameworks for this into DirectX and then however standard extensions get decided for Vulkan. XeSS, DLSS, and FSR all use the same type of input data and would any frame generation and denoising tech.
This is incorrect. Battlefield V was the first game to implement ray tracing and it always used DXR. RTX is simply a brand name.
@@Phil_529 No there were some tech demos made before DXR that used custom Nvidia APIs and there were custom Nvidia extensions for Vulkan
@@antivanti You just said devs had to use "rtx". Not true. The first developer to ship ray tracing was DICE with Battefield and it was DXR based.
As for their Vulkan implementations it was vendor agnostic from day 1. Khronos themselves didn't do it so NVIDIA helped them.
@@Phil_529 Yes fortunately the standards came about quite quickly. But the RTX cards were released September 20 2018 and DXR was released on October 10 but sure DXR was announced alongside it and Nvidia and Microsoft had been working on it since before the reveal. Big developers like DICE probably had some advance access to DXR tho but if you weren't big enough to have an Nvidia guy embedded at your studio you probably had to wait for the general release.
As for Vulkan there were no vendor agnostic extensions so Nvidia made their own that were eventually adopted (and renamed from VK_NV_ to VK_KHR_) as official extensions by Khronos only in November 2020 (provisionally in March 2020) two years after the release of the RTX cards. The initial Quake II RTX versions used the Nvidia specific Vulkan extensions. And the earliest tech demos from Nvidia used their custom RTX api before DXR was released to the public.
But the important part here is that there are standardized vendor-agnostic APIs for raytracing and there isn't for super resolution, frame generation, and denoising. And there absolutely neeeds to be soon before we end up in another Glide API scenario
Will 3.5 finally work on the 3000 series? Will it boost more the fps in cyberpunk with the 3000? And existing dlss solution?
Great info, I appreciate the video!
Absolutely agree that vendor-features is a no-go. Hopefully this stuff will be generalized through DX, Vulkan and Metal
Someone has to be first mover though, and these features require hardware other than the system CPU to be able to run at a usable performance. Likely rules out a software company led approach.
Are you suggesting you’d prefer for these features to just not exist at all? Someone has to be first (it just happens to be Nvidia in this case), then others will follow with their own and it will become a standard with support then added to DX, Vulkan etc.
Are you seriously whining like this?
Nvidia is typically the one pushing the tech in this market. AMD doesn't do it. Intel doesn't do it.
Someone has to do it first, and it's up to the others to match or exceed that.
who is gonna rent a supercomputer to train AI models for stuff like this and make it open source? AMD hasn't made anything on this scale of quality yet. Microsoft isn't gonna do it for free either, though they have a better chance of doing it for DX12 or a supposed DX13 but don't expect this in Vulkan, Khronos group don't have that kind of money and Apple doesn't care about games either
For several years now when I watch very detailed "enhancements" of graphics the manufacturer want me to acknowledge... I often dont know if the new version is really "better". Very often for me its just... different.
I notice similar experiences when checking pictures made by the best smartphone cameras in comparison. Yes - they all are different in detail. But whats really BETTER? I actually dont know in the most cases.
Ray-Tracing has been added to many games AFTER the game was designed WITHOUT ray-tracing in mind. And many raster shadows and reflections look GREAT already when used in appropriate situations. If you have Screen Space Reflections for example, then maybe the MOUNTAINS reflect on to a lake. It looks great. You don't really register that if you're far away. And if the game never lets you get CLOSE it's a non-issue. But if you DO get close then those reflections can disappear. There are similar issues for all shadows and reflections... also, in the FUTURE it will eventually be far, far simpler to design a game if you ONLY design it with ray-tracing. Because you don't need to keep baking the lighting. You're building the game, you move the objects around in real time, you change the light color etc and the game engine just re-calculates all the bounces (so shadows/reflections are just automatically created like in real life).
So part of this is using ray-tracing where it makes SENSE visually that justifies the performance hit, and part of this is about making it easier for the game developers (eventually).
ALSO... there are certain things game devs SIMPLY DO NOT DO because raster techniques fail. One example would be a crystal cave with a lot of reflections AND refractions. So light bouncing off and going THROUGH a lot of objects. you can create those areas, but they don't look like they would in real life. And they don't currently do it with ray-tracing because it would cost too much. So there ARE situations that can only be done WITH ray-tracing and only WHEN it's computationally feasible.
(Pixar knows how computationally expensive every frame is when generating animated movies. When they did "Frozen" the most computationally expensive scene, which was calculated with path tracing, was in the frozen castle due to all the light bounces needed to make it look correct.)
@@photonboy999 You remind me how musician theorists talk about why one song is great... and another is not so great... while I just like both.
Sorry folk. You seem to not get it. You want me to appreciate that one is better than the other and follow your opinion. I just DONT. For me the "better" graphics often just isnt better than the already very good one. I like both. For me they are just different.
13:45 are you able to turn on dlss on 3D programs?
Hold on. So can i use dlss3 on 3070 and have 100fps instead of 63fps like its shown on that picture or not?